Manliness, Cat Ladies, Fertility Panic and the 2024 Election

A strange new gender politics is roiling the 2024 election. At the Republican National Convention, Donald Trump made his nomination a show of campy masculinity, with Hulk Hogan, Kid Rock and Dana White, the president of the Ultimate Fighting Championship, warming up the crowd. JD Vance’s first viral moments have been comments he made in 2021 about “childless cat ladies” running the Democratic Party and a “thought experiment” assigning extra votes to parents because they have more of an “investment in the future of this country.” Meanwhile, Kamala Harris is centering her campaign on abortion rights, and Tim Walz has been playing up his own classically masculine profile - as a former football coach, hunter and Midwestern dad. What are the two sides here really saying about gender and family? And what are the new fault lines of our modern-day gender wars?
Christine Emba is a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of “Rethinking Sex: A Provocation (www.penguinran...) .” Zack Beauchamp is a senior correspondent at Vox and the author of the new book “The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World (www.perseusboo...) .” In this conversation, we discuss some influences on JD Vance’s ideas about gender and family, the tensions between those ideas and the beliefs about gender represented by Donald Trump, the competing visions of masculinity presented by the two parties in this election, how Dobbs changed Democrats’ message on gender and family, and more.
Mentioned:
“What Does the 'Post-Liberal Right' Actually Want? (www.nytimes.co...) ” with Patrick Deneen on The Ezra Klein Show
“A Powerful Theory of Why the Far Right Is Thriving Across the Globe (www.nytimes.co...) ” with Pippa Norris on The Ezra Klein Show
Book Recommendations:
Black Pill (www.simonandsc...) by Elle Reeve
What Are Children For? (us.macmillan.c...) by Anastasia Berg and Rachel Wiseman
The Lord of the Rings trilogy (www.penguinran...) by J.R.R. Tolkien
Justice, Gender, and the Family (www.hachettebo...) by Susan Moller Okin
Cultural Backlash (www.pippanorri...) by Pippa Norris, Ronald Inglehart
Conservative Parties and the Birth of Democracy (www.cambridge....) by Daniel Ziblatt
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail] (mailto:[e-mail]) .
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.co....
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

[@terryarmstrong8598]

Tim Walz's policy about tampons in school is misstated. His policy is that tampons be provided in schools at no cost. Schools are not forced to put tampons in boys' bathrooms. It is up to Minnesota school districts where and how to make free tampons available. Again - Schools are not forced to put tampons in boys' bathrooms. Schools make the choice to do so, or not, for themselves. The obsession about tampons is, well, weird.

[@WackadoodleMalarkey]

The disgusting republican red wave has no chance against his generous absorbency

[@mdegauss]

Its like when Rogan focused on a rumor about kitty litter in classrooms for furry kids. Turns out it was actually for cleaning up blood a much worse thing in school shootings. WHY CANT THESE PEOPLE STOP BEING WEIRD.

[@r8chlletters]

I just wish the boys bathrooms had condoms.

[@joebehrdenver]

Yes. Also several other states, including *Utah*, have similar policies.

[@RebekahCurielAlessi]

Very.

[@FortheBudgies]

😂 that isn't even Hawley's real voice. He's making it deeper. He's my representative and it disgusts me.

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

I’m surprised the incel movement didn’t come up more - you all mentioned it at the end in passing - but it’s incredibly important to understanding how a rift - perceived, alleged, whatever you want to call it - grew between the left and masculinity over the last 10 years. Young men turned their anxieties and frustrations about identity into toxic ideas and online behavior and the left’s response largely was…ridicule. When you’re being ridiculed for what are often genuine, legitimate concerns, like say, your frustrations about connecting with women, why not take refuge in terrible politics? This was a really bad choice on the part of the left, and it had terrible consequences. As a gay man I guess I was somewhat neutral in all of this, so take that for what you will.

[@jamesmullins6681]

Stop blaming the Left. Blame the parents instead. America has always had a perverted image of manhood. The Left has been pushing back (finally) against that, and then are demonized by the White Males who have lost their excuses to be cruel and toxic.

[@Weemadaggie]

This was a really specific type of young men coupled with a whole host of other issues not being addressed including things like mental health, social media and the wealth gap. You can't just pile that on the "left" deciding you know what, treating women like people might be a good thing.

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

@@Weemadaggie I’m pretty sure ridicule wasn’t going to solve the mental health issues I was getting at, and last I checked, incel misogyny most definitely spanned the wealth gap, and ridicule definitely doesn’t address economic injustice. Maybe we’d have had less online fascism to address had things gone a little differently. That is all.

[@raincadeify]

1:09:40 Love the shoutout to Judith Butler.❤‍🔥

[@IamBrixTM]

The problem with men is Capitalism and Toxic Masculinity. It’s about the economic/living conditions. Working class people earn less and less for more and more hours. However men have been told since being little boys it was THEIR job to be the provider/bread winner. To be a symbol of power and success. And Capitalism won’t functionally allow them to embody these toxic ideals. And we’ve grown a lot, with ads about toxic masculinity but on the ground people still very much default to these toxic expectations still. Whether it’s romance or just friendship and the culture in the general. Focusing on “being better” is individual criticism instead of systemic critique. It’s a broader leftover outdated tradition.

[@connollyclara]

Great conversation, covering a hell of a lot of ground. I was surprised not to hear mention of Andrew Tate and the incels - but maybe he is more influential in Europe? Note his role in the racist riots in the UK, as well as his influence over UK schoolboys about gender.

[@MarkYeck-c2y]

Family, children, school and learning have been highly identity politicized as has ‘country’ or rural life. So have guns. I grew up in a little rental home on a farm and have been a farmer.i have owned and shot many guns. People In general did not brand themselves, put stickers proclaiming their ruralness, religion, politics or gun ownership all over their vehicle, snipe at each other about their preferences, etc. most rural farmers were private and I found kind. Guns were a hobby and sport, not some kind of end of the world unalienable right, one of many things someone might be interested in, pta and school board meetings were an opportunity to meet the teacher and discuss your child’s progress as opposed to starting a fight and screaming about some half understood issue. People were basically normal and respected each other or at least left each other alone. One could learn from experiences and choose to change your opinion or practice without being labeled and yelled at, such as for me giving up guns after wha I saw the nra do after columbine. It was way less pressured and free in that angry haters and opportunists were not all around you waiting to label, yell, intimidate, etc. naked opportunism wasn’t out in the open

[@badwolftx2139]

Dawrin will sort it all out on the long run.

[@knackforknickers]

This is a poor excuse for a take

[@tomhavenith2330]

Some of female affirmative action got out of hand. From my country in Europe in civil service... Promotions in my department. First the position would be opened for women only for 12 months and only if no female candidate was found they would open it for men. I was deputy head of my former service, with a titular head of service above me. It had been mismanaged for years. I spend years and an insane amount of energy to bring it back up to standard. The head of service went on retirement and they promoted someone without experience from two rungs under me. I was expected to lead 46 out of 48 people staying a junior for the rest of my career while the new 'head' would led me and two others. They said I was unsuportive and mysogynistic when I looked for and found work elswhere. The system isn't fair to those women either. I mean, the service collapsed within the two years I left it. And the lady who got the promotion to head became the scapegoat for it. She was set up to fail. I mean, I would happily educate male/female to become deputy head and succeed me after. But promoting somebody from under me and make her my boss so I could keep working my but off was just too much for me.

[@jacquelinewilson2279]

Vance - trying to be a pseudo intellectual in the Republican Party 😂😳😳😳

[@terryarmstrong8598]

"Thought experiments"

[@davegreene8588]

Vontz is definitely pseudo - and therefore 50% successful in that quest.

[@NoNameToYou]

That’s all of those weirdos.

[@kimmieb4706]

He’s actually intellectual - he pseudo populist

[@KathrynHaugan]

@@kimmieb4706 There are lots of levels and areas of intelligence...I'm not sure where Vance falls on that spectrum. He certainly has no emotional intelligence, or he is just another sociopath.

[@AS-tn6ev]

But here’s the thing… I like to think JD has some considered convictions-ones he’s decided worthy of compromising first principles for. And for sure, he’s neither the first nor last politician to do so. So and however, what I find most disturbing about him is a seeming total lack of empathy. And by that I mean the ability to fully grasp the experience of another living being. Nowhere is the lack more apparent than in his views on women’s role in society. I mean - does he have any idea of the amount of unpaid labor women perform? Does he have any idea of what it’s like to 1) bear 3 children; 2) run a household (clean, cook, shop, drive, do laundry, fill out forms for all, provide care when sick, etc; 3) in all likelihood, care for aging parents; 4) hold down a job; 5) look presentable; 6) and maybe even downplay her intelligence so as not to come across as a threat to her husband (assuming he’s still around)? I wish he’d give this a bit more thought…

[@KayAnn2121]

You nailed it! He has no empathy for women and it shows. I think he just perceives us as tools to be used at the discretion of men.

[@KathrynHaugan]

And I wonder if he is out of touch with the trauma of his own early and teen years experiences. Saw an interivew about his book ... ten years old or so ... the interviewer asked if he had resolved his childhood hurts that led to Hillbilly Elegy...caught JD unawares, dropped his gaze, looked really startled, didn't have an answer, mumbled something about maybe he should work on that. Yeah, dude, you need to work on that and leave the rest of us alone.

[@cathynorris6280]

Large families make future consumers. We have a consumption economy. If consumption drops, how will oligarchs grow and maintain their wealth, status and power?

[@kahlilbt]

Immigration

[@llamaboss1434]

By replacing the peasants with new ones. Of course when the peasants were scarce their labor was valuable and their rights improved. But lefties will never allow that to happen, will they?

[@lauracohen4914]

They want white people to have more children. White people have slowed their reproduction. I mean, there is no shortage of people, over 8 billion in the world.

[@MG210]

Sad but true.

[@skyegypze3982]

And who will fill church coffers?

[@anthill1510]

It`s really interesting that Elon Musks talks about how people should have children when he doesn`t take care of all his children and never has. He seems to think just putting them into the world is enough.

[@lunazamoraart]

Barstool camp.

[@NoNameToYou]

This right here. These men view fatherhood as status, legacy and have no interest in actual parenting.

[@WayneTheSeine]

Elon recently shoked the world with the comment that the "trans mind virus murdered his son" where in reality Musk, through his lack of understanding and compassion, he himself, "murdered his daughter's father."

[@lunazamoraart]

I remember when my mom was unable to take care of herself and her 4 children. I remember feeling very insecure. Literally staring at homeless. What’s wrong with women being able to take care of themselves and not find themselves at the desperate end of a man’s boot. Good grief. Be masculine or whatever, but let us take care of ourselves. That’s all we want.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Literally every single study shows that children of single parents are worse off than children with two.

[@jonahblock]

holy shit, i never realized how much contempt Donald trump has for Families but I guess he has never seen a healthy one

[@fatesrequiem]

“I serve my child and I cannot serve two masters” that’s very religious language right there. Specifically Christian religious language, though it puts “his child” in the place of God in that framing. Which is….both confusing and notable.

[@raydodd8324]

Could someone please use Elon saying "whimper in adult diapers" looped with Trump whining, moaning, and audibly shitting himself while losing the ability to speak at a rally?

[@joanneclarke771]

You know, women had been discriminated against for centuries and that didn’t seem to bother men that much. But boy when they felt a tiny bit of that themselves, that was an immediate cause for anger and resentment.

[@unconventionalideas5683]

There were various efforts that took place over a long time. The Roman era was thus marginally more patriarchal in many Western Countries than the Medieval Period, for example, at least from what I have been able to gather, but it was really when the Enlightenment Era Dawned on Western Civilization that the old norms began to be challenged in a serious way, owing the sudden explosion of rational thought and evaluation of circumstances, at which point many people realized that the existing rigidity of gender roles did not always make logical sense. It took a few decades to really start changing things, but it began in that time period.

[@itsallminor6133]

I think it was much more that women were considered in a "protected class". No women no babies. Plus the need of mothers and those instincts. Much more protected class. The Roman era you speak of is problematic. As they protected women and girls more than men and boys. For instance you could prostitute a little boy but not a little girl . You explain that

[@mr.underwood3298]

You mean the young generation of men who have been living with this discrimination their whole lives, and are constantly shamed because of what other men did in the past? Is that what you're talking about?

[@itsallminor6133]

@@mr.underwood3298 they shouldn't be ashamed. It's what brought us here.

[@LaSmoocherina]

We love Walz. I’d get in a car with Walz for a 7 day road trip without blinking. I wouldn’t get within 100yrds of Trump/Vance. Missouri- vote for Kunce.

[@janetmarugg9424]

I'm loving the way Walz, Emhoff, Kelly, etc. are treating the women by their sides. These are the male role models we need as antidote to the toxic manosphere and incel-dom.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

As a man, I cannot stand a single one of the people you just mentioned.

[@MattyV001]

Oof. All these guys just reek of self hatred and insecurity. Tucker. Elon. Trump. Vance. Thiel. Their entire personalities are just lashing out at others because they are not comfortable with who they are. Too bad they didn’t have a supportive loving parent in their lives like Tim walz or Kamala.

[@kahlilbt]

Seriously! I'd be embarrassed to stand next to any of them. Kamala seems like a great mom and a fun auntie

[@amoebayearnsalot]

or Pete B!

[@jonahblock]

you can hear trumps hatred for family in his voice when he talks about how Vance loves family's

[@jakespivey3716]

I don't know about Tucker but, certainly Elon, Trump, and Vance all had traumatic childhoods. Trump's mother got very ill early in his life and was not available to him for an extended amount of time and then later, he was such a problem, his parents sent him away to military school for 5 years when he was only 13; it's no wonder he has so much irrational hostility. You're right they're projecting their own psychological problems on the other people and trying to reform society at large to create a feeling of safety for themselves.

[@gerriperreault6905]

​@@kahlilbtand part of a loving extended family with husband's ex and kids. Says a lot!

[@IamBrixTM]

The problem with men is Capitalism and Toxic Masculinity. It’s about the economic/living conditions. Working class people earn less and less for more and more hours. However men have been told since being little boys it was THEIR job to be the provider/bread winner. To be a symbol of power and success. And Capitalism won’t functionally allow them to embody these toxic ideals. And we’ve grown a lot, with ads about toxic masculinity but on the ground people still very much default to these toxic expectations still. Whether it’s romance or just friendship and the culture in the general. But the insecurity and bitterness that results from the toxic expectations and roles for men and woman, is driving the heteropessimism and therefore the wounded machismo that reactionaries thrive on.

[@terryarmstrong8598]

Childless cat ladles, and now postmenopausal women. Dobbs. What kind of a message is that?

[@davegreene8588]

It's a message of Mindless, hate-fueled, dimwitted Stupidity, courtesy of MAGA/GQP Doofuses.

[@RebekahCurielAlessi]

"I serve my child. " By telling him to "shut the hell up"? ☎️

[@KDdevidasi]

As a Feminist Leftie, I'm all in on raising my son with virtuous masculinity. He plays football and lacrosse...definitely warrior sports and we discuss the righteousness of traditional warrior values. My departed brother was a martial artist and ammunitions specialist in the military. We honor masculinity, and men's capacity to be allies, strong and tender, yes, heroic. My brother died saving his girlfriend's life. We honor him.

[@RebekahCurielAlessi]

Wow. May your brother's memory be a blessing. 🕯

[@WayneTheSeine]

A wonderful post. Sop sorry about your brother, but what a great tribute to him.

[@julianholman7379]

I feel so lucky to be born in a cohort who didnt get ideological training in masculinity from our mothers or fathers. No wonder there are now youngsters who want to be 'non-binary'

[@unconventionalideas5683]

Sorry to hear about your brother. Thank you for raising your son(s) in a healthy manner.

[@WayneTheSeine]

@@julianholman7379 I was lucky to get training from my mother on treating women with respect with typical chivalry, when walking on sidewalks keep her on the inside, stand when a lady is introduced, open and hold doors, open and close the car door, and always abide by her wishes when it comes to yes or no. My dad, took care of the masculine side, defending ones self, hunting, fishing, camping, as well as honor, integrity, and valor.

[@nikkitrif7606]

Maybe this was already answered more fully but I'm still not very clear: why are they trying to force everyone to have their same values and live these lives they deem acceptable? Why can't they live as they want and find wives who support their traditional values/roles and the rest of us can live as we want and have the families we want? No one is trying to take their religion away or prevent them from having the family life they want but why do I have to conform to their values? Just merely allowing gay people, working women, childless adults, etc. to exist in society isn't trying to force them to be any of those things or to get abortions or anything. They can live their religious lives all they want but they don't get to tell the rest of us how to live our lives and what our values should be. I find their way of life threatening to me. If my mom couldn't work and had to obey my dad or step dad, we'd be broke, poor, starving, abused and probably dead. It's not always easy to just make sure you "pick the right partner" either. I have been married to a decent man for around 9 years now and we have a daughter so I'm not anti-male but we see each other more equally but with different strengths we bring to the table. I absolutely want my husband to protect our daughter and me but I hold myself to the same expectation that I will protect my daughter and him. Why is it acceptable to put our whole lives and livelihoods onto the shoulders of one person? What is the reasonable answer to so many of us women who've been let down by some of the men in our lives? They want to push us back to this era that they thought was so great and gave a clear definition to what a man is but what about our abilities and input? What about our contributions we have and can bring to a society besides bearing children and keeping a home? Why can't we have a say or enjoy a different distribution of all that is life? I don't want to hear either that god or religion told you this is how it is. That is a lie. A small group of men told us all that was what god or a religion said to be true. But men are humans and humans are flawed and just because a person says something doesn't make it absolute truth. Anyone can say god told them such and such but that doesn't make it true. This extreme movement from the right is a threat to the lives of women and to most men for that matter, to the economy, to the planet, to just about everything and everyone. I will resist and reject it until death.

[@AS-tn6ev]

This really nailed it. Yep. However, i’m thinking one could say even more succinctly… there are men who’d like women to abide in a situation of permanent ‘availability’😊.

[@anthill1510]

Yes, availability for everything: free domestic labour, free sexual labour and free child labour. In their eyes a woman is a vessel to enhance their life. To enhance their status in society by being a married man, being their incubator and caretaker for their kids. And it doens`t even end there. JD Vance was delighted by his mother in law taking a year off to take care of his children, instead of himself helping his wife to care for his children. To be clear: I have no problem with women being stay at home moms and grandmothers taking care of their grandchildren. I have a problem with the expectation that women should do all this for free and be the only ones to be expected to do this. Why didn`t the father in law care for the kids at all? The idea of people like JD Vance wanting to put laws into place that make it difficult for women to choose anthing else than being this free caretaker for their larger family without any security for themselves. Not to mention that a lot of families simply cannot afford for one parent to stay home and republicans don`t want to do anything to improve economic conditions for average people to be able to do that.

[@quill444]

_Genetically, the act of having children is not what gives you a stake in the future of civilization; it is the fact of merely being alive that gives each of us such a stake._ 🧬 - j q t -

[@kahlilbt]

Frankly, I want the future to be good for whoever is here in the future. All of them. Related to me or no. Same skin color or language or no. Same banner or no. Same religion or no. I want them all to be halt, healthy and free.

[@anthill1510]

People who say someone without children doesn`t have a stake in the future are people who don`t have real empathy. I don`t need to have children with my own DNA at stake to care about what happens to people in the future. In contrast to JD I do care about what happens to EVERYBODY, not just my children. He obviously can`t imagine that. It`s really ironic that this assertion "People who don`t have kids don`t care about the future" comes from the party that takes away rights from all kinds of peole, doesn`t care about climate change, social programs for people and workers rights. How can they pretend to care for the future? And yes, there is the obvious thing that I have a stake in the future simply for my own wellbeing up to literally my last breath.

[@kehlcassidy9562]

Is that a quote? I love it! Who are you quoting?

[@quill444]

@@kehlcassidy9562 Um, I'm just quoting me! 😋 - j q t -

[@kehlcassidy9562]

@@quill444lolnnincefbb

[@Ilovedogs-mf7cd]

The opposite of toxic masculinity is heroic masculinity.

[@anthill1510]

Well said. Depends on what one sees as heroic, though. A superhero that steps in when a crime is about to happen and "heroically" punishes the criminal who is a stereotypical supervillain? .... or the kind of hero who implements school lunches and social programs so that people are cared for and don`t have to become criminals to survive or get ahead in life?

[@Ilovedogs-mf7cd]

​@@anthill1510 Hah well my personal take would be the latter, but from a macro perspective, I'm talking about the qualities of the romanticized "traditional" man that are positives, and are net positives for a society (egalitarianism, camaraderie, individualism, etc.). A man can be traditionally masculine and still do good, much the same as a man can be traditionally masculine and do very bad. The path forward is to figure out how to recognize many people will have gendered views, and to lead those who seek out masculinity to embrace the positive while limiting the negative.

[@LaSmoocherina]

❤

Heterosexuals need to stop obsessing about being Men and Women and just start focusing on being decent Human Beings. After all, you are both over 9O% biologically identical. After all, according to both Yahweh and Carl Gustaf Jung, the human psyche is androgynous as in both male and female. And it is the denial of male femininity which results in Toxic Manhood Psychology. And of course every anatomical male is a Transsexual. They start out with a proto-vagina and then later transition to a male phallus. And every phallus is simply a renovated vagina. Which is why anatomical males are all a bit of a hoax.💙

[@mytmouse57]

That means the Lunch Lady is the true hero.

[@mytmouse57]

Bless the manly cat ladies who are panicking about fertility.

[@darknightbegins85]

I’m a senior district attorney with no kids and a vasectomy. Guess I’m part of the crowd JD Vance thinks should have fewer votes

[@terryarmstrong8598]

Are you a pet owner? Dogs +1 vote per dog Cats -1 vote per cat My cats will have to find other methods to seize power.

[@nomorenamesDAMN]

Yes

[@darknightbegins85]

No pets. Thinking of a fish

[@stephenboyington630]

You can be masculine and NOT be an a hole. That is the battlefront. Today most areas of the manosphere attack men that are not a holes, and focus on defending the right to be one. We live in interesting times.

[@janelesnick9531]

Musk and Carlson miss the fact that many young people don’t have the economic wherewithal or feeling of stability to have kids. If I had to guess I’d say they probably miss this because they never had to worry about it & don’t seem to have the imagination to have enough empathy to understand. The giant transfers of wealth to the top tiny bit of the population over the last 40 years have contributed to this state of affairs. Not saying I agree with their assessment of our society and population “problems,” but I am pointing out they’re drawing conclusions they don’t need to draw.

[@granthuling3235]

Instead of having two leftie academics, one of whose book title ends in “…a Provocation” (lol) as the “perfect guides” to the topic, how about having someone who is actually on the side you’re talking about?

[@itsallminor6133]

Valid

[@diannasgardenmenagerie967]

OMG that first Vance speech, he is giving that speech to himself in a mirror, very scary!

[@daquidi]

interesting conversation. tim walz and kamala harris. but it only became clear to me with her when walz joined her ticket embody a natural confidence in who they are. especially walz has none of that masculine fragility that has become such a dominant phenomenon today. i have been entrenched in internet culture and it has become exhausting. identity politics left and right. it is tiring and simply annoying. kamala and walz are doing a good job having avoided that cultural discourse.

[@cradio52]

Walz absolutely did not sign a bill into law that required tampons to be placed in public school boys bathrooms, but even if he did… WHO CARES?! It’s nice for boys to grow up being comfortable around these hygiene products rather than thinking they’re scary or icky, and they’re great to just have around in as many places as possible in case of emergencies. More tampons, please! And pads! And condoms in high school!

[@Archer.Lawrence]

I love listening to this heady, nuanced take on masculinity in American politics... and every few minutes glancing back to see Hulk Hogan at the gun show 💪

[@ReynoldsAudioProduction]

The conversation avoids the growing climate influence. Many are choosing not to become parents because A- reluctance to bring children into a ghastly future, and B- global overpopulation is known as a primary factor of overshoot. Assertive reproduction is denial of environmental polycrisis.

[@vfernando19]

Regarding; reproducing and civilization... aren't we over populated?

[@MarkYeck-c2y]

Weird comments on childless couples. I specifically did not become a parent because A I was not ready B I felt financially I also wasn’t ready C never had a partner in early life I felt like raising a child with D wasn’t raised with a lot of ‘family’ emphasis though we were a scrappy little family. So really I understood the gravity of bringing another life into the world, and did not want to do it unless I could go all the way to its adulthood properly and set my child up for a win in life. I was concerned for the kid I never had. Plus the option to adopt seemed great as well.

[@r8chlletters]

Many of us could not afford children and were smart enough to know that having them was a road to even worse poverty. That’s what 50 years of flatline wages in the midst of economic turmoil, outrageous cost of higher education/training, out of control housing costs and gouging inflation gets you. And don’t get me started on healthcare costs, no maternity leave and childcare support…

[@anthill1510]

He never commented on childless COUPLES, he only commented on childless WOMEN. That was no accident. This is about controlling women.

[@retromograph3893]

Great show! One thing not brought up that's worth mentioning: Many people are pre-disposed to follow a strong leader who will tell them what to do, think, and how to act. The world's great religions demonstrate that amply. Therefore the more a leader acts like a god, the more likely a significant proportion of the population are to follow them, regardless of how loony their ideas are. So in fact the details of what DT or JDV believe are secondary. It's their style that's all important. They could push a whole other set of wacky ideas, the same people would follow them with equal enthusiasm .

[@congorock6098]

Everything these podcasters say is true, but to put it more plainly and succinctly: Vance and Trump clearly hate women and feel threatened by them.

[@NoNameToYou]

I would like to see a story on the relationships public men in that movement have with their mothers. I think that is a driving factor in their overall resentment of women.

[@lauracohen4914]

What a wonderful conversation. I agree that handling issues with levity feels much better than rage and fear, and is more effective.

[@quill444]

You DON’T Descend From All Your Ancestors kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpTPdWV7lJilnqs

[@kahlilbt]

I saw that video recently and it's actually been on my mind a lot. It's really enhanced my thinking about some things, and I was thinking about it listening to the podcast. Nice!

[@hallucinatingsiren]

Wish they'd talk more about Yarvin and his insidious monarchist ideology.

[@NoNameToYou]

Oh there’s is plenty of time to slow drip all his weirdness to the American public from here to Election Day.

[@saraa3418]

I find this argument about a lower birthrate being attributed to available birth control and abortion laughable. The fact that fewer unplanned pregnancies are happening is a good thing. Humans should have children because they want to, not because they found themselves pregnant and the only thing to do is see how it plays out. The answer to a dwindling birthrate in a society where having children is optional is to make having them and raising them easier. If housing is so expensive that people cannot afford a home large enough to have a family in; groceries are so expensive that people cannot afford to feed their family; childcare hard to obtain or afford; and jobs so onerous that you do not have the time to spend with your family: you have made the situation untenable for having a family. Plenty of people want children, but they are in a situation where having them isn't an option. Put policies in place that help solve those problems and maybe people of childbearing age will start having families.

[@itsallminor6133]

Most children were born of unintentional consequences. Most people facing scary responsibility would choose to avoid it.

[@s13rr4buf3]

I'm a childless cat lady and a lifelong Democrat, and I don't think that every person who claims that they feel like a woman on the inside should be let into women's sports leagues. It doesn't mean anything to have women's sports unless it's restricted to women.

[@s13rr4buf3]

And regarding the boxer at the Olympics, she is intersex and was flooded with 20 times the testosterone of a natural born woman during her puberty. This is an unfair advantage which she cannot correct by taking testosterone blockers for a few months before the Olympics. Please be accurate when you speak about the issue. This wasn't ever a trans issue, and it's also not a case of a cis woman. She is DSD.

[@kahlilbt]

These are not facts. You are tearing down a WOMAN with mistruths (whether you believe them or not, it's false) because she is too masculine for you. What kind of feminism is that??? ​@@s13rr4buf3

[@TisDana]

@@s13rr4buf3where is the proof of your claims about her adolescence?

[@Edo9River]

Ezra please preserve this hulk hogan photo

[@cmorillo2865]

I think a vast majority of Americans view a health, dual parent family unit as the ideal. But if you are too poor to have children, then why aren’t conservatives more supportive of family tax policies, minimum wage, etc?

[@Niko-777]

Men not wanting to be nurses is likely due to the lack of inherent male authority and hierarchy compared to the past, which existed in both the workplace and the home. Men were doctors, women were nurses. Men were bosses, women were secretaries. Yet men were actually set free by women’s liberation, and they’re afraid to discover their full human potential beyond traditional gender roles which favored men financially, forcing women into a subservient marriage role. Nobody wants to surrender their inherited power and privilege. Men can still aspire to positions of power, but now they have to actually compete.

[@goldenphoenixpublish]

On an atomic level, energy can be released through "splitting things apart" (fission) or "combining things together" (fusion). It would appear that our two political parties have now declared their respective approaches...

[@royzlatanestevez9843]

Birth rates are falling EVERYWHERE. You can understand Elon Musk even without the racist subtext you are trying to imply.

[@RonaldPetrin]

You won’t say it I will, InsHannity and ignorance. Wolz represents a dad like figure. A great “common speak” mentor full of love compassion and coach, a teacher who understands war. Help US get through the many twists and turns Coach!

[@RyanRuark]

Sounds to me like JD Vance can't handle the responsibility of parenthood.

[@NoNameToYou]

He is attempting to work out his unresolved childhood trauma and resentment of his mother on all women in America.

[@FPOAK]

I'm skeptical about how much bearing those generational shifts to the service economy had on the issue considering how much more salient it's become in just the last few years. It seems like the rise of the new rightwing media attention machine is a bigger factor. It also explains Ezra's observation about how they seem uniquely keyed in on trans topics: for the same reasons they overinflate the significance of other salacious attention-grabbing issues like urban or migrant crime Arguing about economic policy requires knowing things and reading news articles. "That's gross" only requires watching Tim Pool clips

[@connollyclara]

Tim waltz could ah Beene discussed more. He was an inspired pick by Harris, as a symbol of self confident, contented masculinity - unthreatening to women.

[@MG210]

Very interesting and thorough conversation. Thank you! I'm a single, educated woman without children. The reasons people don't have children are so varied, not just for one reason, or because we don't like children. I hear that right-wing people have been very disrupted by the social changes in our lifetimes. I think that's true, in different ways, for many of us. But it's wrong to try to control everyone to make yourselves more comfortable. Republicans just can't seem to get that we are not trying to force them to not have kids, or have abortions, or give up their religion. We just don't want them pushing their values on us. Freedom is what our country was founded on.

[@stephenmarcus9601]

I'm to the Left of Dems on most issues, nonetheless, over the last decade, there has been an uptick in the perception of male as threatening or problematic. My 99 year old grandmother was in ICU. My mother, with good reason, flipped on nursing staff. Later, when conflict resurfaced, I was far more measured, even with my academic credentials, knowing security would simply remove the argumentative "mansplaining" guy. Interestingly, staff became far nicer when my boyfriend arrived causing me to code shift from trad masculine to obviously gay. The two security guards in the hall quickly disappeared. There is hostility towards men and this is currently harming the Left as the Right poses faux masculine

[@2GunsUpZ]

It's kinda weird how the NYT talks about the "excesses of the left" - when they themselves were constantly talking about it. As if they have been some neutral observer above the fray...

[@fwiffo1376]

Random question re young men if anyone knows the answer and happens to see this post: are young men (say mid to late 20s) who are in stable relationships more liberal than young men who aren't now? Marriage especially used to be a signifier that someone would vote more conservative because it tracked with property ownership and caring about the crime issue. Is that no longer then case? This is assuming you can control somehow for religiousity, since I assume that men who get married earlier for religious reasons are still likely to vote more conservative, probably by a significant margin. But for the less religious men, you would assume that a lot of the incel-adjacent talking points would be of little relevance to men in good relationships.

[@nathanchildress5596]

I hated reading Tolkien, his style of over explaining everything, including silly jokes is so tedious. The Lord of the Rings could have been 2/3s as long if all of the word waste was taken out.

[@frederickrapp5396]

People that don’t have children usually make this choice because they have decided that they just can’t afford to do so. Raising children is an extremely costly enterprise that takes a very healthy income from both parents.

[@thermitebanana]

Targeting young men with Hulk Hogan.... 53 year old young men will be totally into that

[@HbagMbag]

Good show! Thank you!

[@nathaliebastoaguirre8739]

Loved this conversation. I really learned a lot and found some of the perspectives new and plausible. Thank you

[@kenneld]

This was great. Ezra should do more 2-guest shows.

[@10pound]

FUCKING WEIRD

[@simian_essence]

From a purely economic growth perspective, more people = more growth and therefore ultimately - more wealth creation potential. For the USA, this long-term growth could be accomplished by "people" (families) having more children. It could also be accomplished by an increase in immigration. Perhaps all the nuns and cat ladies could advocate for the latter solution if the former is not sufficiently appealing??

[@terryarmstrong8598]

Both are appealing to this childless by choice cat lady.

[@K_A80]

Except these right-wing people only want white European Christians to immigrate and that's not who wants to come to the United States. Hence their fear about being replaced by people who don't look like them.

[@dawnoceanside7300]

WHY? WHY doesn't this "reporter" explain why pads are in the boys room? When the volleyball or other sports use the gym, the males of the away team uses the the mens, the oppositions girls use the boys room. 😤🤬

[@joebehrdenver]

The MN state law says period products have to be made available in the *school building*. It's the school's decision as to where in the building to place them. Several other states, including Utah have similar policies.

[@kimberlymw5522]

What are you afraid of?

[@DennisMoore664]

The gender subject is as simple as... "Girls will be boys and boys will be girls It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world" _Lola_ The Kinks 1970

[@Jimmy2toes4u]

Well Ezra when you got a whole society trying to tell young men that they are worthless and need to sit down you get this backlash

[@terryarmstrong8598]

How can we change the messaging to young men to reverse that impression? I ask in all seriousness. Men, young and old, are essential to a functioning society. Young men are as much of the future as young women are.

[@anthill1510]

What did you hear people say that you interpreted like that?

[@jasonnugent963]

I too would be curious to know where men are being told "You're worthless, go sit down".. because I'm 51,. and throughout my life I've never heard that anywhere in any social situation or city I've lived in.

[@patriciaeamon1388]

Well Jimmy, when you try to blame "a whole society" for saying something that I've never heard anyone say to any young man, you exhibit the "blame everybody else" mentality dragging so many people down these days.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

I'm 51, but as a actual man and non Simp, I heard what he heard to. Stop gaslighting him. You elitists are gonna face a backlash you can't imagine

[@soniaoneal3949]

Re Project 52, At heart its issue of social power and entitled leadership is rooted in a premise of ‘hierarchy’ of species and based upon race, gender and wealth. The Christian social premise for society is ‘humanity’ that is kindness, mutual respect and access to prosperity.

[@KnarfStein]

Disguising a bald(ing) head with a beanie or bandana doesn't seem very manly to me. 7:07 It doesn't matter which point on the spectrum he is on. The lowest point is already intolerably freakish and authoritarian.

[@iainmackenzieUK]

Historically, haven't men held both positions simultaneously ? The upstanding man of the house and pillar of society with a bit on the side.

[@hwizell7478]

Century graphics Deconstructed united Statesmen designers #rodchenko

[@triciahutchins5407]

Whatever happened to ZPG?

[@hadiza1]

🧡🧡🧡🥂

[@ehsanakbari3185]

😊

[@halneufmille]

I'm a Canadian and I would place myself way to the left of the Democratic party. Yet, my biggest worry for the last 10 years have been falling fertility rates in the world. It's not all that bad in North America thanks to immigration. But think about South Korea with a fertility rate of 0.8. At this rate, in a century, the country will be almost entirely populated by old people, with barely anybody producing anything.

[@anthill1510]

It`s not out of nowhere that the situation in South Korea is like that. The society there is still incredibly conservative, married women are expected to do what their inlaws say, care for their inlaws and now also work at the same time. Men on the other hand are expected to earn more money than is actually possible in the current economy. Because of all these expectations marriage and children is a bad deal for both sides. If you would change the cultural expectations for both men and women people would have more children again.

[@halneufmille]

@@anthill1510 I agree completely. I see two solutions to fertility (in all countries) 1. Make every kid-related expense way cheaper. 2. Make it socially rewarding to have children (not necessarily for religious or traditional reason), because they are going to pay for all our pensions when we are old.

[@alliauyeung3004]

The they shouldn’t have made a society where being a wife and mother is so punishing and expensive that people would rather choose 4B than eternal suffering.

[@jake8855]

Meh. Species come and go. Can't have endless population growth just because old people need to be taken care of.

[@mustno3]

You mean Tampon Tim?

[@jaberwoky_]

Ya lost me at young men of politics and the left.

[@harperwelch5147]

You’re taking JD Vance too seriously, as though his comments have meaning. They don’t. They’re random things he’s heard and repeats that will provoke.

[@anthill1510]

No, it`s really not like that. There is a whole ideology behind his comments and he is consistently spouting that ideology which will be implemented nationwide in laws through project 2025 if Trump wins. You are underestimating the threat.

[@anthill1510]

No, it`s really not like that. There is a whole ideology behind his comments and he is consistently spouting that ideology. These ideas will be implemented nationwide in law if Trump wins, look at the plans put forward by the Heritage Foundation. You are underestimating the threat.

[@anthill1510]

No, it`s really not like that. There is a whole ideology behind his comments. These ideas will be implemented nationwide in law if Republicans win, look at the plans put forward by the Heritage Foundation. You are underestimating the threat.

[@anthill1510]

No, it`s really not like that. There is a whole ideology behind his comments. These ideas will be implemented nationwide in law if Republicans win, look at the plans put forward by the Heritage Foundation. You are underestimating how many people behind the scenes really are convinced of the things JD says.

[@anthill1510]

No, it`s really not like that. There is a whole ideology behind his comments. These ideas will be implemented nationwide in law if Republicans win, look at the plans put forward in Project 2025. You are underestimating how many people behind the scenes really are convinced of the things JD says.

[@MsGenXodus]

29:07 we need people in the trades! Society spent decades putting down jobs in construction as low value. Considering the issues with housing would argue that we NEED tradespeople! There’s nothing shameful about a job as a home builder. But for decades, doing physical labor has been denigrated as low class.

[@alicehb1606]

It doesn’t really matter if Vance is talking about “intentional” childless cat ladies [people] or unintentional, this comment is deeply hurtful to this 60-something childless cat lady (who’s not miserable, just sometimes sad). I always wanted to have a child. Not that it’s anybody’s damn business, I will confess it anyway: I chose to end 4 pregnancies, all of which were excruciating decisions but for one of them, once because I was too young and in college and wanted to continue my education, with a boyfriend who supported my decision either way; twice with partners who didn’t want a baby and threatened to leave if I kept the pregnancy, and I could not do it alone; and once because I was raped. Having to hear this over and over in the media is hard. Making it easier? Knowing I am not alone, all of the probably thousands of other “childless cat ladies” speaking out! Wearing T-shirts! The Solidarity! 💙💙 Harris/Walz!!

[@jdguzmanv]

Calling Republicans 'the weird' is a disgrace of argument, it is an argument of a normal uniformity vs . What is unacceptable, such a strong 90s Republican tactic vibe back then against Democrats.

[@jaimemoore6]

I think Democrats are throwing whatever sticks to prevent fascism! Lots of people are not paying attention.

[@michaelk5825]

I think one way to think about people who decide not to have children is that they don't have much of a picture of the future of this society. I feel sad about that and fear for the future of our society.

[@tulaloo6526]

You do realize that some people are not able to have children but do have children they love and care about their future. What a thoughtless thing to say

[@NoNameToYou]

How about you think about yourself and leave other people alone.

[@BrutusMcCrunch]

Media will be held accountable in societies collapse.

[@whatsdoin2392]

Vance should stop moralizing about the virtues of family life and talk about the border, talk about inflation, talk about the useless war in Ukraine, talk about the war on meritocracy. Trans issues can be a winner too since nobody wants their child's school to secretly transition them.

[@NoNameToYou]

He talks about it because it’s a top priority for him. If Trump wins he’d be one heartbeat away from being president. We should know what he thinks and what his priorities are.

[@adensun9981]

51:10