Marcionism and the Rule of Faith

[@BlindBart_Mk10-51]

Stellar podcast! I have now binged all the episodes so far.

[@tonyl3762]

Thanks for diving deep on Marcion and going beyond the standard and sometimes caricature descriptions of him and his beliefs. The nuance and mystery that yall bring out of the sources are always fascinating! There are always apologetic implications to your historical surveys and interpretations, but they always seem secondary to sincere understanding and fresh dramatic insight.

[@francisgruber3638]

A most pleasant surprise of a competent and insightful approach to a complex figure. You guys are great.

[@halleylujah247]

Oh a Catholic Brothers video 😮. Pat Flynn and the Catholic brothers posted today. It is definitely going to be a good day

[@Gerschwin]

I feel like I'm living in the golden age of catholic apologetics...

[@Pie_Pellicane]

Thank you for an awesome episode.

[@johnchung6777]

Splendid interesting video and I do thank both of you my catholic brothers for your presentation, and I do hope that the All Glorious Omnipotent and Mysterious Trinity increase your understanding and knowledge of the History of The One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of Traditional Teachings and Worship Amen 🙏

[@suzanne7569]

Superb channel and discussion! As someone who has rejected Marcionism but cannot intellectually or scripturally refute it, I will definitely be here in a flash if you ever have a discussion refuting it, particularly as regards the YHWH playlist on the good god channel. IMHO, this is something that is sorely needed. You have the best and most balanced explanations of "offshoots" I have seen, but don't delve quite enough into refutation for me to feel easy. Subscribing!

[@paulodasilva7701]

Thank you brothers. Great channel!

[@joegeigerjr]

Great work as always! Your highlighting of specific markers for different heresies is appreciated.

[@mike-lx8tp]

These videos are fantastic!

[@alexandreferraro]

Valeu!

[@tonyl3762]

Had to lower volume on the intro with my kids around, lol

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

We blame Tertullian lol

[@rexgloriae316]

Great video. Never heard of this Marcian guy before, seems like a trouble maker. An idea for a video: Sola Scriptura. I think you two would approach it with the nuance that it needs.

[@tonyl3762]

Maybe Rod Bennett's works are a little too literary or populist for yall, but I've got his _Scripture Wars_ on my list to read, which I believe deals with the same topics and figures but with more focus on Justin Martyr.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

Dr. John Bergsma of Franciscan U. has an interesting write-up on the Rabbis’ theories of the two messiahs. He suggests that the lesser Elijah-esque messiah of Levi was fulfilled in John the Baptist (and that Jesus attests to this by calling John “Elijah”), and that the greater Messiah of Judah was fulfilled by Christ (obviously).

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Yes, and the two messiah theory is still current in many Jewish circles. Messiah Ben David and Messiah Ben Joseph is a modern iteration of the theory.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

1:23:00 And the Holy Spirit who spoke through the prophets!

[@alan-muscat]

Oh just to say, this is my first visit to your channel and I was milliseconds from moving on when the video started with the 'auto read' voice at the beginning. I thought it was one of those videos where the whole thing is read by a computer generated voice.

[@ultimateoriginalgod]

Are you going to delve deeper into the formation of the new testament and dating of the Gospels? This seem relevant to both the Marcionites and the Gnóstics which you covered.

[@billlee2194]

I checked the Catholic Encyclopedia but it only said...Marcion was son of the Bishop of Sinope in Pontus. So, any help would be appreciated to learn Marcion's father's name. Stephen mentioned his name as ??? phyalogus ???? at timestamp 7:44. Thanks.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Philologus Romans 16:15 is the biblical reference for the name.

[@billlee2194]

Here's why I'm glad I asked. I shared this with my online Catholic community.... Why I like being Catholic. Reason 4,283: Names don't always have to remain just a name. Romans 16:15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people who are with them. Tradition records Philologus was a wealthy man who went on to become bishop of Sinope in Pontus. He had a son who went on to form a Heretical sect founded in 144 at Rome and continued in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. This heretical sect rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known. Philologus' son's name was Marcion. Marcion formed the heretical sect known as the Marcionites. Marcion became a bishop as well. He also created his own canon. Marcion accepted only the gospel of Luke to the exclusion of the other three gospels. He also accepted all of Paul's writings but he would "cut out" any Old Testament quote or anything else that contradicted his theological views. He rejected all other books of the Bible including all of the OT. References: The Catholic Brothers; Catholic Encyclopedia; Bible.ca

[@tonyl3762]

Erick Ybarra is a good counterbalance to Michael Lofton on current Church controversies. Because of him, I discovered how the opinion of Pope Francis on the death penalty is very concerning in light of traditional teaching. The change to the Catechism barely doesn't cross the line, but the footnote for it cites a Pope Francis speech that does cross the line since it condemns the penalty past and present on principle, not allowing for prudential considerations.

[@PadraigTomas]

Was it one of Eric Ybarra's books that has a discussion of the Holy Father's opinion on the penalty of death?

[@danieldimond5734]

💫 Since the beginning of his pontificate, Pope Francis, has uttered heretical statements (as had Benedict and John Paul II). The more traditional Catholic Cardinals, have stated that he is a 'material' heretic. With regard to the: Death Penalty, Francis is definitely departing from about 2000 years, of Roman Catholic tradition. 💖

[@stevenstuart4194]

Hands down one the best historical theology videos I've seen in aeons (see what I did there?)

[@devinking8175]

I think you guys are missing a VERY important point that current scholar ship is showing that Marcion did NOT change his text. He had older texts and letters of Paul. Marcion was an early fundamentalist that did not like the new Gospels. He didnt like the changes to the faith.

[@devinking8175]

Correction you guys hit this and went deep on it. Such a well rounded look into Marcion. We'll played sirs!

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@devinking8175 😉

[@ultimateoriginalgod]

Amen! What are some books or sources on this subject I could pursue?

[@bondservant1104]

Criticism not intended, Brothers, I have come across the Black Maddona statues and icons conspiracies. Some say they're inspired by paganism. Can your clear it up for me a little bit or recommended for me some material to read?

[@jonathansmith4712]

When is the next in this series going to come out?

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@jonathansmith4712 later this week, likely Wednesday or Thursday

[@tonyl3762]

Does Justin Martyr comment on apostolic succession or episcopal authority? If so, where?

[@billlee2194]

Catholic Brothers, do you guys know of a book or online resource that list these otherwise obscure names like Philologus along with whatever later documentation we have on them? Otherwise, I guess I could google each of them.Thanks

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

The book “Jewish Believers in Jesus” by Skarsaune and Hvalvik gives great sketches of a lot of early figures whose names appear in the NT. Encyclopedia of Early Christianity is another good resource (which also points you to further resources under each entry).

[@billlee2194]

Yahoo!! I will definitely look into both resources. Thank you guys so very much. You two do such fine work with what you share. I consider your videos some of the best around. God bless

[@billlee2194]

Which of the Encyclopedia of Early Christianity do you recommend? I see more than one on Amazon. Thanks again.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@billlee2194 Everett Ferguson

[@billlee2194]

Thanks.

[@danieldimond5734]

😭 Brothers Gone Wild ! 😎

[@tusolusdominus]

The Eucharist with water is fascinating, I’ve only heard of that in Mormon communion. Would this have been valid Eucharist at the time?

[@danieldimond5734]

The Mormons, are far removed from Christians, let alone Catholics. Christ, is viewed as an elder, spiritual brother, etc.

[@alan-muscat]

I really enjoyed this, thank you. But I didn't understand what you were saying about the relationship between the tridentine mass and the novus ordo mass. Could you elaborate on this. Why can't you just come up with a completely new liturgy?

[@danieldimond5734]

😠 What is all, this psychobabble ? I command YOU, to elaborate further ! 🤴

[@alan-muscat]

@@danieldimond5734 eh?

[@aosidh]

I still haven't heard an actual refutation of Marcion. Theology, man 🤷‍♀️

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Would you care to elaborate? There are numerous treatises against Marcion from the early Church.

[@aosidh]

@@TheCatholicBrothers rather, I have never found the refutations to be more convincing than Marcion's account. It is the plain meaning of the text! I've thought this ever since I read it in RE - a good few decades before I heard about Marcion.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@aosidh so you’re saying that you’re a marcionite ?

[@aosidh]

@@TheCatholicBrothers I'm an atheist, but I did get my Catholic fire insurance as a child.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@aosidhwell that’s an odd take. Marcion is quite incoherent even by his own canon’s standards..

[@Silverhailo21]

On the death penalty question the only way I can understand it in a Orthodox way is that the church is responding to the various state level purges, genocides, holocausts, revolutions, Mass starvations and otherwise wholesale butchery of secular social Democratic states against their citizens. If we want to really chunk down on this, none of the various incarnations of modern States are legitimate or rightly ordered. The separation of church and state is a error, rank secularism is an error, democracy is the lowest form of government. The church, recognizing this, is encouraging states to stop killing their citizens. It's our modern secular social Democratic states that have shown themselves completely incompetent on the question of whether their citizens should live or die.

[@danieldimond5734]

Absolutely correct ! Wasn't it Plato or Aristotle, who'd stated that democracy, is rule by the mob ?

[@tusolusdominus]

Hi, this is very off topic and I think you’ve done a video in some way about this before. In the Alexandrian Patriarchate in Africa, they recently ordained a female deacon and she was seen administering sacraments (something that only a deacon and priest can do in the east). I’ve also heard that there was some deaconesses and female presbyters as late as around 1000 AD but what they did has been debated. What are your thoughts on this? Are these female deacons non sacramental? PS: even if they’re non sacramental roles, they seem to do the same functions as sacramental Deacons

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Watch our video “when women were(n’t) priests”

[@tusolusdominus]

@@TheCatholicBrothersokay, thank you. I’d also like to say I really have enjoyed your content, I’ve learned so much and it’s furthered my understanding of just how ancient and continuous the faith is.

[@Kytheus_Errant_2106]

Tertullian is one sick, sick, little man.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@Kytheus_Errant_2106 if by sick you mean hilarious

[@Kytheus_Errant_2106]

@TheCatholicBrothers he might use the most vile, denigrating, disrespectful, subversive, and just downright slimy tactics and language of any author in antiquity. And we have an enormous selection to choose from, it's quite the feat. Actually, until apologetics came on the scene in general literature hadn't ever been so venomous, nor has it been since the first apologists. Putting such energy into insulting and attacking dead men who can't defend themselves doesn't make me laugh, rather, it makes my heart ache. The man was certainly no Christian, and no one the Chief Cornerstone would approve of.

[@OzCrusader]

The ai voice annoys me no end, causing me to stop listening 30 seconds into the video.

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

AI defeats the Crusader! 🤖🥇

[@labaro]

It's a shame that many people are carried away by your charisma and the wrong way you start to argue. Right from the start, you label Taylor Marshall with adjectives - an obvious "ad hominem" argument - and perhaps he deserves these labels, but this is something that should be presented as a conclusion and not at the beginning, because if your ideas do not stand on their own and you need to start by generating animosity towards the person, everything else you say is contaminated by this error. Is being a fundamentalist bad? Is Taylor Marshall a fundamentalist? Define what "fundamentalist" is, explain Taylor Marshall's fundamentalist ideas and then present the most virtuous version of your faith. I know that it is unlikely that you will pay attention to what I say and this, perhaps, is your fundamentalist behavior manifesting itself... All this I'm talking is about this video of yours: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6mboa2OrJyIg5Y

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

@@labaro many people found the video helpful at the time, and many found it unhelpful. If you didn’t find it helpful, feel free to ignore it. We’re not always going to agree with each other.

[@dr.tafazzi]

I guess I gotta get used to strick the last 20 minutes of your episodes from the run time of the videos since it turns to just a trad talking points club. Not interesting, and not on topic

[@TheCatholicBrothers]

Ah. there’s that “trad” label again. Here’s an exercise for you: give it an earnest effort to define that term before labeling someone with it, and then see if it sticks (or if you are possibly just engaging in a kind of calumny against fellow, sincere Catholic brethren).

[@dr.tafazzi]

@@TheCatholicBrothers A trad is someone that publicly complains about the actions the church is taking today. Among trads there are concerning are excesses that I'm not accusing you two of crossing. I think this definition sticks. My point is just that complaining about the contemporary situations in the church is not interesting compared to the rest of the video, it's not a fitting conclusion to the great work that was done for the bulk of this. To be clear, I'm not saying the church forbids this kind of complaints, I just don't care about you two's take on these issues, post them in videos specifically on those topic instead of spoiling your first 500 years series with this stuff that probably won't be relevant in 5 years.