Marine Cloud Brightening - Tribute to Stephen Salter

The Climate Emergency Forum hosts a discussion about the late Stephen Salter, a pioneering professor of engineering at the University of Edinburgh, and his work on marine cloud brightening (MCB) as a potential solution for mitigating global warming.
This video was recorded on March 27th, 2024, and published on April 14th, 2024, and represents the opinions of the discussion participants.
The participants reflect on Salter's innovative ideas and creative mindset. A key focus is Salter's proposal to use a fleet of unmanned ships to spray fine sea water droplets into marine clouds to increase their reflectivity and albedo, thereby reflecting more sunlight back into space and cooling the planet. Salter provided calculations on the number of ships needed for different cooling goals, such as reversing sea level rise or preserving Arctic ice. The dialogue highlights the relatively low cost and scalability of this approach versus other geoengineering methods.
The participants emphasize the need for solutions like MCB, given the rapidly worsening climate crisis. However, they also acknowledge the public opposition and lack of media coverage around such unconventional approaches. They stress the importance of engaging in broader conversations, good governance, and bringing the public on board through strategic communication efforts to explain the vision and overcome the code of silence around these topics in mainstream discourse.
Overall, the dialogue serves as a tribute to Salter's innovative work while underscoring the potential of marine cloud brightening as a viable, affordable, and environmentally-friendly way to help mitigate global warming, if implemented responsibly and with proper public support.
Links:
- Rebrighten.org
rebrighten.org/
- Healthy Planet Action Coalition
www.healthyplanetaction.org/
- Planetary Restoration Action Group
planetaryrestorationaction.gr...
- A Farwell to Ice
www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/boo...
- Could Salter's duck have solved the oil crisis?
science.howstuffworks.com/env...
- Little fluffy clouds may help save Australia's Great Barrier Reef
www.reuters.com/business/envi...
- A Climate Vocabulary of the Future, Second Edition
www.herbsimmens.com/a-climate...
Special Guests:
Stephen Salter (1938-2024) - was an Emeritus Professor at the University of Edinburgh, invented the Salter duck wave energy device. His innovations include the world's first multi-directional wave tank and feedback control systems for wave absorption.
Dr. Peter Wadhams - is a pioneering researcher in Arctic ice and atmospheric/ocean physics. He is one of the leading experts on Arctic sea ice decline. Wadhams authored the acclaimed book "Farewell to Ice" which received overwhelmingly positive reviews beyond just academia.
Dr. Alexandra Price - is a Research Associate at the University of Edinburgh with a background in experimental modelling of wave energy converters. She has worked principally in commercial R&D of wave energy.
Dr. Win Rampen - is Chair of Energy Storage at the University of Edinburgh, founded Artemis Intelligent Power, advancing Digital Displacement hydraulic tech. A pioneer in renewable energy, he oversaw Artemis's growth and holds multiple fellowships.
Robert Tulip - is a veteran of the Australian Public Service with degrees from Macquarie and Monash Universities. He is a climate engineering pioneer advocating for ocean-based algae production. He is also part of the Healthy Planet Action Coalition Steering Circle.
Herb Simmens - is co-founder of the Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC). As Executive Director, he crafted NJ's smart growth plan, led higher ed climate consortiums, managed cities, taught, and authored books on climate strategy.
Regular Panelists:
Paul Beckwith - Climate Systems Scientist. Professor at the University of Ottawa's Paleoclimatology Laboratory as well as at Carleton University
Video Production:
Charles Gregoire - Electrical Engineer, Webmaster and IT prime for FacingFuture.Earth & the Climate Emergency Forum; Climate Reality Leader
Heidi Brault - Video production and website assistant, Organizer and convener, Metadata technician, COP team lead for FacingFuture.Earth and the Climate Emergency Forum; BA (Psychology); Climate Reality Leader
Our Website:
climateemergencyforum.org/
Attributions:
Background Music:
- Title: Through the City II
- Author: Crowander
- Source: Free Music Archive
- License: CC BY-NC 4.0
Image and Video: climateemergencyforum.org/ass...

[@KlausCastanhaMerini]

Thanks all you at climate emegency forum !!! God bless you ! I love you !! You are very important.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Brilliant, thank you. 38:31 Stephen Salter sounds a lot like that man James Lovelock. A practical genius and theoretical wizard combined in one mind. The world should have been so lucky to have had Stephen Salter on its team.

[@robbietulip1542]

Yes, this comparison with Lovelock is accurate and important. Lovelock's Gaia Theory that life maintains planetary stability fills us with awe for the wonderful complexity of nature, which MCB aims to protect and enhance. This planetary perspective involves a humble respect for nature, the opposite of the domineering attitude of technological exploitation. There is a spiritual dimension to this new planetary thinking. It is a great shame that the climate establishment failed to recognise the value of Stephen's analysis in the philosophical framework for his engineering proposals.

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

Thank you for this tribute. It is inspiration and depressing at the same time. Use of spray is relatively low cost, so why not just get on with it?

[@ClimateEmergencyForum]

Great point!

[@robbietulip1542]

There is immense political opposition to "just getting on with" MCB. The consensus among environmental NGOs is that MCB would enable a slower transition away from fossil fuels, and so must be prevented at all costs. This widespread opinion is an emotional and unscientific rejection of steps that are urgently needed to mitigate catastrophic climate risks. This political attitude has prevented the investment needed to test ideas such as those of Stephen Salter. Hopefully this is changing, but there is still no advocacy for higher albedo in politics or media or business or civil society, even though it is one practical step we could take to improve the world.

[@Mivoat]

Thanks everyone for this important presentation, especially the first part from Stephen himself. Very good comment from Ali near the end, that many of the people opposing climate solutions have the same concerns as those of us who see great potential in MCB, which is the safety of our planet going forward.

[@robbietulip1542]

Yes it is so true that we need to promote dialogue about how to achieve our shared goals. You are right that many people opposing climate solutions do so for good motives, but regrettably they are misinformed by people whose underlying motives are not clear. Your goal, "the safety of our planet going forward", is put at extreme risk by the rejection of MCB.

[@joannecarter8191]

Really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for your ongoing stewardship and insights which lift the spirit. I hope a way can be found to continue the research and scaling up of such promising science.

[@ClimateEmergencyForum]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@heidibrault1313]

Thank you so much for your support!

[@danielfaben5838]

Mr. Tulip of course stated that the process represents the first step to restoration. While laudable, this engineering feat is not the first necessary step by a long shot. If humanity was serious about this predicament, choosing to lower impacts across the board would have already taken place. Dancing on a increasingly tilted floor might be fun for awhile but hitting the wall is assured in time. This mitigation falls under the category of enabling. Business as usual for all of us is the expectation of the bright and reasonable people. We think it is a right to have our high standard of living.

[@solarwind907]

What is the first necessary step in your opinion?

[@cdub9923]

Masking the symptoms for a planet in palliative care. Might buy us an extra generation. If anything it will just give us license to emit more carbon this century.

[@brianwheeldon4643]

Thanks your comment. Hard mitigation stopping the production, supply and burning of fossil fuels is the primary step. We must aim to have statistically zero burning by 2030. The hell that's already started is coming in all directions to rich and poor alike over the next 5 to 15 years. And it won't stop there. It's surprising how many don't want to acknowledge that.

[@robbietulip1542]

Thank you Daniel. If it is feasible to maintain living standards in a stable climate while protecting biodiversity, that should be our goal. "Hitting the wall" as you put it is not assured. It may be possible that increasing planetary albedo within our existing economic system can provide the time to work out how to remove the excess GHGs that as you put it are 'tilting the dance floor'. "Choosing to lower impacts across the board" is extremely difficult to do under democratic governance and so is unlikely to occur. Finding ways to remedy those impacts is likely to be a more practical approach. Robert Tulip

[@DrSmooth2000]

@@robbietulip1542 by albedo enhancement do we refer just to MCB or other more drastic ideas?

[@russmarkham2197]

fantastic video. Gives me new hope that some kind of climate repair may be feasible. We must do the research at the very least. I have been of that view for some time. This method seems better a priori than injecting SO2 or dust into the stratosphere since that would be more polluting. However, H2O is also a GHG so I think it needs the research on whether it works at scale

[@obsoleteoptics]

Repair? No, this and other SRM methods will just be used to continue BAU until termination shock.

[@DrSmooth2000]

​@@obsoleteopticsMCB seems reversible (except for the saltwater rain? Never got answer on that concern anywhere) It will just be erratically funded depending on political party or enthusiasm Hopium 'doing something' unless done hard-core Don't mind experiments suppose except encourages the SAI guys

[@robbietulip1542]

@@obsoleteoptics Marine Cloud Brightening will require international governance. The alleged "termination shock" is a false argument. Higher albedo is essential, like food, water and energy. The world would also get a termination shock if systems to manage these essential services were disrupted, but that is hardly an argument to stop feeding people. We are currently watching the actual termination shock from the mad experiment of the International Maritime Organisation to ban sulphur from shipping fuel, causing the removal of the previous masking of warming. Shifting away from business as usual is a gradual process that can be assisted by essential technologies such as MCB that offer stability through the difficult transition to a sustainable economy. The shock of tipping points caused by a failure to rebrighten the planet should be a far more serious and pressing concern. The risk of not proceeding with MCB is massively worse than any of the alleged risks of this essential technology. Main benefits include mitigating key risks such as extreme weather, biodiversity loss, sea level rise and systemic disruption.

[@robbietulip1542]

@@DrSmooth2000 Because MCB requires salt particles smaller than a micron (1/1000th of a millimetre) it will not cause salt water rain. A lot of salt naturally gets into clouds from the sea, but the particles are far bigger than what is needed for MCB.

[@Mtnshell56]

This was a great video. My only question is why aren't we doing this already?

[@robbietulip1542]

You might see that the Summary for Policy Makers of the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report totally ignored the need for higher albedo, even though that is the most effective available lever to reverse dangerous warming. This is because of the pervasive false belief that higher albedo would undermine the IPCC call to halve emissions by 2030. Decarbonisation at that ambitious scale has very many problems, but the alleged "moral hazard of geoengineering" is not among them.

[@solarwind907]

While Biden is still in Office, it would be good for american universities who have marine science capabilities to shake the money tree on Monday morning and see if they can get this equipment on their research vessels post haste. Need to have more influential voices from all over pushing this asap IMO. Thank you very much for bringing this practical sciences to light!!!

[@allenfoust6713]

While Biden is in office, there will be no money for climate. He is putting it into raising the body count in Palestine.

[@robbietulip1542]

The immediate need is funding for scientific research on the best way to generate the extremely small aerosol particles needed for MCB, and for advocacy to engage in public dialogue about the merits of MCB. Unfortunately, the US government issued a Congressionally-Mandated Report on Solar Radiation Modification last year, but the virulence of unscientific lobbying meant the government ignored the call to support this vital research.

[@Anyreck]

Interesting to hear of Steven's work, i hope the message on benefits to Earth of MCB achieve implementation.

[@robbietulip1542]

If the technology challenges can be solved the benefits of MCB are expected to be immense, primarily in mitigating risks such as extreme weather, sea level rise, biodiversity loss and systemic disruption. As well, the international cooperation required to properly govern MCB would improve political relations between nations.

[@anamariacarvalho6738]

Hi Paul. Its me, Ana from Sao Paulo. A brilhante ideia The aerossol reflection from marine clouds

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

Just to mention an experience with salt water spray: During the covid lockdown I had the idea to use salt water mist as an anti-viral. Salty water can be sucked into the nose to mitigate common cold virus, but it is not all that comfortable to do. Also, just a salt water solution would get into just the nazal cavity, not the lungs where it would be most needed. A salt mist could be breathed right into the lungs. I tried ordering a nebuliser, but it never arrived. So I ordered an ultrasonic misting machine, which produces far more mist than I needed. Added salt to the water, and it did produce a lot of very fine mist. Breathing it in was not at all uncomfortable, and I am pretty sure it helped when I did get covid. This was long before vaccines were available. I was unwell for a couple of weeks only, and was not much worse for me than a cold. I am pretty sure my mild illness was because of the salty mist. A friend of similar age was unwell for months, but did not like the salt mist idea. Not all of the mist did I breathe, and the result was an extremely fine covering of salt powder over all the surfaces in the room! This same approach could be used for cloud brightening? But the machine would need to be ruggedised for purpose: after a few weeks the salt corroded the piezo disc metal electrodes, and it stopped working.

[@DrSmooth2000]

Went too high tech. Netti pot would have done the nasal part at least

[@robbietulip1542]

Salty air is great for health. This nebulizer approach won't work for MCB as the aerosol particles it produces are too big. The key research agenda is to find the best way to generate the submicron uniform sized particles needed to optimise cloud brightening.

[@christill]

It’s always been a fantastic looking solution, as has MEER and Ocean Pasture Restoration. Maybe when business as usual starts collapsing, and humans get desperate enough, we’ll actually try it.

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

Maybe drone ships plus added water spray equipment to existing ships? The existing ships would go on their normal routes. The drone ships could fill in the gaps, and respond to seasonal tilt of the earth, to target where there is most sunlight in any particular time of the year. There are many thousands of existing ships. If even a few percent of them have this equipment fitted then that would make a significant beneficial impact. Some of the major cruise ship companies are going green, and will want to burnish their green credentials (maybe cynically to attract customers, but never mind, they are doing it.) So I think that suggesting fitting cloud brightening equipment would be warmly welcomed. I expect they would want to see what the costs are for installation and maintenance. And good, reliable equipment that does not cause problems for passengers. (noise, unpleasant smells, water dripping, or whatever.)

[@robbietulip1542]

Ships have a lot of waste heat from their engines that goes up the smoke stack. This energy could be utilised for MCB. Testing on existing routes will provide essential information to prepare for deployment in the vast regions of the world ocean where no ships go, especially the Southern Ocean. MCB can help to remedy the climate disaster caused by the decision in 2020 to remove the brightening effect of sulphur from shipping fuel. We are watching this accidental termination shock play out in real time with the extreme rise in temperature over the last year. The shipping industry has a responsibility to engage constructively with this topic.

[@christill]

Sadly I think his story represents in large part how we got here. Ignoring and defunding the experts. Making things as hard as possible for anything good to happen. But what a fantastic person who leaves a great legacy.

[@robbietulip1542]

Stephen's generous legacy in the Lothian School of Technology is a 3000 square metre industrial workshop where innovative research can pursue public good objectives such as mitigating climate change through MCB. It was immensely frustrating for Stephen to see the potential of MCB over the last two decades but not be able to get the ear of decision makers to inform people about it. The idea that we could limit climate change without higher albedo is scientifically absurd, but that is the non-expert consensus in official climate policy.

[@h.e.hazelhorst9838]

Could these autonomous vessels also serve a dual purpose, for bringing colder, nutrient-rich water to the ocean surface? Or seeding ocean eddy’s with iron sulphate? Or dispersing FeCl to combat methane emmissions?

[@robbietulip1542]

There certainly is the potential for autonomous MCB vessels to add iron chloride to the air and iron sulphate to the ocean. Research from Oeste et al shows iron chloride would have multiple cooling benefits in addition to methane removal. There are other technologies that could utilise the nutrients below the thermocline more effectively, such as the Marine Permaculture program of the Climate Foundation. Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion has immense potential to convert the temperature difference between the surface and the deep into electricity.

[@kimweaver1252]

How will reducing actinic light impingement on the sea affect photosynthesis in marine flora? Will it affect the total amount of nutrients in the marine food chain? Will it reduce fish populations?

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

Rather than making Flettner rotor drone ships, why not just fit water spray equipment to existing ships? It would offset the lack of sulphur emissions.

[@ClimateEmergencyForum]

Yes, good point.

[@solarwind907]

Sounds good, but I'm thinking if it was that simple Salter would have recommended that, instead of going through the math to figure out how much the ships cost, annual maintenance etc. I'm guessing that whatever ships are already out there that could be re-fitted, they're presently being used for something else. I'm thinking (dangerous) maybe it's better to just get a few hundred of the exact same ship built for a specific purpose rather than "bush rig" existing ships made for different purposes? Good question though, thank you!

[@DrSmooth2000]

​@@solarwind907Aussie bloke in barrier reef project has 'floated' 🦭 idea with tourist ferries to spray on their trips out

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

@@solarwind907 Maybe drone ships plus added water spray to existing ships? The existing ships would go on their normal routes. The drone ships could fill in the gaps, and respond to seasonal tilt of the earth, to target where there is most sunlight in any particular time of the year. There are many thousands of existing ships. If even a few percent of them have this equipment fitted then that would make a significant beneficial impact. Some of the major cruise ship companies are going green, and will want to burnish their green credentials (maybe cynically to attract customers, but never mind, they are doing it.) So I think that suggesting fitting cloud brightening equipment would be warmly welcomed. I expect they would want to see the costs for installation and maintenance. And good, reliable equipment that does not cause problems for passengers. (noise, unpleasant smells, water dripping, or whatever.)

[@reuireuiop0]

Would save lots of additional cost of it could be done from ships that would sail anyway, making money from transport. To maintain a fleet with the sole purpose of keep global heating in check, would demand an enormous funding campaign. Crucial punt being - who will draw the wallet (The West, as climate justice will have it ? Not going to work, as Joe the Taxpayer will vote someone in office who will force a fair share of the bill to other countries. Plus : in whose hands we gonna trust the _Control_ of our climate ? We want temps OK for us northern countries, or lower, so that the Global South can live a normal life. China and India will want the thermostats way lower, I bet. _Had a good laugh at "I'm thinking (dangerous)"_

[@lisaclausen8304]

So hopeful! Let's do it!!!.0000

[@robbietulip1542]

At a time when people are in despair about the future, MCB offers a ray of sunlight, the hope that we can start to turn around our destructive trajectory and envision a future world of peace and abundance, grounded in scientific reality.

[@allenfoust6713]

All the mice ever talk about is getting that bell on the cat. Never attempted, never going to.

[@martiansoon9092]

There is one problem. If you just cool the areas where hurricanes have formed, then you stop the energy balancing that hurricanes do. This may lead to more heat to the oceans (Hurricanes draw heat from the upper ocean). More bathtub conditions, more likely changing ocean currents and so on. Or it may lead to crossing 2C surface temperatures faster due to lesser mixing of oceans and of air. So, we have to change the overall intake, not just some spots. Banning fossil burning (and get SO2 slashes of heat) and perhaps adding more white clouds is a wise thing to do.

[@robbietulip1542]

Stephen Salter advocated a focus on using MCB to cool the surface water in hurricane nurseries, such as in the central Atlantic Ocean. That would reduce the intensity of extreme weather events, which have caused hundreds of billions of dollars of damage in recent years. The insurance industry should support this agenda. Banning fossil burning is not realistic, and focus on CO2 cannot mitigate climate change in the short term.

[@angelicaramos6332]

We might have a chance if this is implemented AND we stop the business as usual model.

[@robbietulip1542]

This strategy creates a serious dilemma. The business as usual model is extremely difficult to stop, as it generates prosperity and stability for most people (for now), and has the political and economic power to ignore calls for it to stop. Therefore it is likely to be more effective initially to work in cooperation with the existing economy than to predicate climate repair on what is often perceived as some sort of communist revolution.

[@solarwind907]

Come to think of it, Elon Musk has the money and power to get in on the ground floor in this growth industry. And he could use some good press right about now. If the Gates foundation gets ahead of him it will make him look like a schmuck. The person that solves this problem will go down in history as the GOAT!

[@CoinsBand]

Although I agree he has the money, I personally wouldn't want that man anywhere near geo-engineering. He lies, he's desperate for adoration, he's easily mislead by the yes men (boys) around him and he's delusional. He's had enough money to employ some fantastic engineers and product designers, and he's put a lot on the line to make things work, but his motivations are driven by money, and rarely altruistic. He offered to cure world hunger by providing 6 billion dollars if he was convinced by the UN they could pull it off, then retracted his offer when they approached him with a plan (it would also cost a lot more than that to stop world hunger). He lied about building the hyperloop train in California so that the state government wouldn't fund their own fast rail project so he could sell more of his cars. He's a bad guy. If he donated to a fund or an organisation comprised of top experts and had zero influence, that'd be fine. I just don't see him contributing to anything unless it frames him as the saviour. I wish I could be optimistic about him but he just seems like every other billionaire at this stage.

[@reuireuiop0]

Not every other billionaire. Though that man is nowhere as wealthy, I'm increasingly reminded of Trump when I hear Musk making stupid claims.

[@robbietulip1542]

I think what is needed is to break the culture of silence in the mass media about the benefits of higher albedo. Presenting rebrightening the planet as a simple and safe and acceptable solution can then get politicians and investors on board.

[@OneWhoWalksAlone]

🤣🤣🤣🍿🍿

[@allenfoust6713]

Better do something soon. Guy McPherson’s latest conclusion, based on the science, is that we may only have 15 months. Depending on the loss of polar ice. Nature Bats Last.

[@robbietulip1542]

Hasn't Guy been saying that for years? It is an important point though. If we flew on a plane with a one percent chance of crashing most of us would not get on, but the risk to our planetary home is far worse than that. The problem is that cutting emissions cannot produce short term mitigation of climate risk, whereas higher albedo is our most tractable lever.

[@kimweaver1252]

Stephen SALTER wanted to spray SALT WATER into the atmosphere. Irony. It's a better mitigating method than spraying SO2. SO2 acidifies the surface, but spraying salt water will eventually result in the salinization of farmland and lakes with low through-flow.

[@AmberWest-dm5xh]

😮 wow, you have my un divided attention...🎉 😢😅😂 ❤

[@mitchellkrouth5083]

Correct you are out of time but will try

[@davidwilkie9551]

Anti Armaments is perfect sense, anti Nuclear Power is perfect insanity. Why the insulting duplicity?

[@omahaflynn5937]

Geoenginering is experimenting with our health and is theoretical at best...the air and sea are one and the same...this is shameful