Mark Blyth. Angrynomics at SCOTONOMICS

Full keynote interview from our Festival of Economics in Dundee on 22nd March.
This was a prerecorded interview we aired on the first evening of our festival.
Mark was invited because of his views (especially on MMT) not despite them.
Enjoy the full interview. Here is the background to the interview and why we are very happy to share it despite his opposing views.
Two weeks ago, Kairin and I interviewed Dundee-born economist Mark Blyth for our opening night keynote presentation at our Festival of Economics. We are both avid consumers of Mark’s books, articles and podcasts.
Being so familiar with Mark, we know his views on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). Mark knew our position, too. So much so that he asked me, 'Are you ok with me shitting in your soup?'. Aye, I said. I want you to come and be our keynote.
We had a very wide-ranging conversation. You can watch the 40-minute video here. During our interview, Mark strongly opposed MMT's prescriptive elements. He said little about MMT's descriptive parts, which are its cornerstone. But nevertheless, he is clearly anti-MMT.
Mark was the ideal guest from the mainstream because he is a dissenter of some neoclassical assumptions, and his economic worldview is within reach of heterodox schools. We did not expect Mark to support our overall vision for a post-independence Scotland.
With this in mind, it is hard to see this as some kind of 'gotcha'. Mark's opposing view of how we construct a prosperous, independent Scotland was exactly what we wanted to hear. It is worth pointing out that this was a pre-recorded session. There is a cut function for those unaware of the video production process, and we could have removed every MMT critical word that Mark spoke. But then, what would have been the point?
In his wonderful book, ‘Contending Perspectives in Economics: A Guide to Contemporary Schools of Thought’, Economist John T Harvey writes, “The development of reliable explanations of economic phenomena requires a pluralistic approach to the development of theory, one in which schools of thought debate openly and vigorously in an atmosphere of mutual respect.” We created this atmosphere at our Festival.
Such is the nature of our 'science' that economists have only opinions when looking into the future. Despite his sizeable brain and vast experience, Mark does not speak God's word. As someone influenced by Hererdox economists, I disagree with much of it.
We believe an MMT lens is essential to create a wellbeing economy in Scotland. However, many people, including most economists who all share Mark’s worldview, do not agree. Our job is to construct a winning argument. You do that by listening and engaging with those who disagree with you.
It must be stressed that Mark clearly supports the same end destination as everyone in our audience and those reading this newsletter. He wants to see a fairer, more prosperous Scotland. However, he does not think that the prescriptive side of MMT applies to Scotland or any nation apart from the USA. We think he is wrong.
Mark has an orthodox understanding of the economy, while I have different assumptions guiding my worldview. But one thing is sure: I would be a fool not to engage, listen, and learn from him. Unfortunately, the toxic reaction to his statements will likely make his interest turn away from Scotland-a shameful outcome for those on this side of the pond.
For many people with an ideological view rather than one arrived at via discourse and reflection, airing an alternative view would seem like madness! This is especially true in the world of internet bubbles, where the idea of engaging with sensible people you disagree with seems like a weakness.
We wanted our audience to be entertained and challenged. Mark is exceptionally good value on both counts. We also wanted to hear his opinion. As I said in the interview, "You have given us much food for thought and will be very useful for us to consider throughout the weekend."
Certain groups and people are not interested in creating an atmosphere where “schools of thought debate openly and vigorously.” Instead, it is all ‘mic drop’, ‘completely destroy’, etc.
MMT is a solidly heterodox idea. It is based on assumptions with which Mark just does not agree.
In addition to criticising MMT, Mark made some other remarks that we would have challenged-had that been an objective for the interview. Instead, we used his words as fuel for our fire. However, owing to the coverage of his remarks, we will provide a detailed response in next week’s newsletter.
Many of the sessions, including Mark’s wonderful keynote, will be available on demand this week. You can purchase a ticket for £30 here.
scotonomics.scot/festival-of-...

[@philmaccall4943]

😂Delusional Scot Nats ! Least they made Blyth laugh i spose...

[@Sunnysue31]

I'd like to be a fly on the wall if Mark ever had dinner with Gary Stevenson of Gary's economics ..... 🤔

[@treyquattro]

I think there'd be quite a lot of overlap. It'd be great if Gary debated some more established non-classical economists.

[@ttystikkrocks1042]

I think they'd find a lot of common ground very quickly... And then the discussion could get very interesting, indeed!

[@tonywilson4713]

I'm Australian and *I SECOND* that motion. I participate regularly with the Steve Keen and Friends Podcast and since you know who both Gary and Mark are I'd recommend you join in. I have been bugging Steve to have BOTH mark and Gary on recently. Steve already knows Mark so that's already possible. He also knows Stephanie Kelton so she is also a possibility.

[@sluglife9785]

The usual hard dose of realism from Mark. Valuable contributor.

[@TheKFMProductions]

Thank you, Mark, for articulating what I’ve been attempting to say for 4 years in such a way that it might raise some eyebrows.

[@tonywilson4713]

I'm Australian and I love the fact he kept telling them he does NOT engage in fantasy economics.

[@nubosite]

Mark Blyth is a legend…

[@davidmaskey203]

Well said Mark! No wonder Scotland said No Thanks, and continue to now.

[@MrChristopherUK]

Great, a nuke of a truth bomb. So much of the ScotNat movement is high on propaganda, it takes someone with Mark's profile and intellect to show them a bit of reality.

[@user-sd2yw9nh2b]

Its worth noting that Mark Blyth's assessment of what a poor position Scotland is in, and how painful full independence would be, these criticisms apply to the whole UK and apply to Scotland IN the UK. The fact that our country is so heavily owned by private and outside interests is a terrible indictment of the way we do things in the UK. The UK is a very undernourished economy because our model is to pass the majority of benefits of the economy to private, offshore, tax-avoiding, extractive, private interests. The UK is just as hobbled as Scotland. How do we change this? I am willing to take the gamble because the current trajectory within the UK is a downward spiral. There is NO upside in the UK. Independence at least brings opportunity as well as struggle.

[@DavidSandeman]

Your post is left wing twaddle and put a number on the offshore aspect. SNP are a corrupt Government and ensured a once fine country has lost its business dynamic and oversees a drop in education, Europe's largest drug and alcohol problem and draconian laws on so called Hate Speech. aside of Named Persons failure and Gender rubbish. Too many failures to even list. What on earth does an "undernourished economy" mean?

[@breft3416]

Capitalism bleeds labor and moves on. It comes back when it can bleed taxes.

[@stephen4518]

How many decades of suffering and hardship will be acceptable before we get back to where we were after an actual separation, while trying to reduce the deficit? How long thereafter does it take to make up the lost ground and get in the black without a central bank and having to rely on the international money markets for managing our deficit. Would our interest rate be better or worse and to what degree? Add in what Mark said and I don't think there's any economic case for independence. Even the rosiest analysis thinks it would take decades to recover. Of course, you could prioritise sovereignty, just like the Brexiteers and we know how that worked out. We did leave/separate from EU constitutionally, but not in terms of our reliance/dependence on the economically and also in the case of travel. That sovereignty/independence ain't looking quite so independent or sovereign from anything I've seen.

[@zambotv8150]

He's wonderful

[@deathbychicken]

When the fantasy of clowns meets the hard reality of knowledge and the facts of macroeconomics and markets. They ask an expert his opinion, then completely reject it because it doesn't suit the narrative. Dangerous people.

[@scotonomics1]

Opinion mate. There is an alternative to much of what Mark said.

[@deathbychicken]

@@scotonomics1 Opinion based on a highly recognised and respected academic career in international economics spanning decades. You would be extremely wise to listen to it and reflect. Google Dunning-Kruger.

[@igypop.]

@@scotonomics1 no, it's not an opinion, it's a reality, and you can ignore reality but when push comes to shove reality will not ignore you..

[@ttystikkrocks1042]

Gents, you need to do that a lot more often than once a year. The world needs to hear more about Scotland and what she has to offer. So maybe consider a monthly or even weekly discussion series?

[@SkyEcho7]

Interesting 🤔 Whilst Blyth was involved in - a Scottish government project 10 year reimagining of the Scottish economy - he spoke very favourably about the likely success of Scottish independence. Who's project is he now speaking favourably about 😕

[@grantwebster8157]

One of the worlds top economic minds telling us exactly how it IS. Could ALL the back street economists please LISTEN , 2 ears one mouth. Not give us a FANTASYLAND diatribe on Mark telling us how he is WRONG.

[@zambotv8150]

He believes climate change is man made

[@scotonomics1]

He is giving us his view of the world which is based on assumptions that we would challenge. This is an opinion and should certainly be given space as part of the discourse on Scotland's future. So should the opposite view.

[@stewartyboy]

Which assumptions? That currency is reliant on confidence? That Scotland has no major services or products to sell internationally? That breaking the myriad of trading ties with the UK would be detrimental? Do tell.

[@grantwebster8157]

@@scotonomics1 Mark Blyth has an awesome reputation for being CORRECT in his economic and social predictions and observations around the world . I have many years ago voted SNP and could again if SNP was again a broad political alliance encouraging and protecting from the multinationals the Scottish entrepreneurs who could build great industries with a view to launching a bid for Independence in 40 or 50 years time I would love you to explain to me how launching an independent Scotland with our own currency under MMT does not carry HUGH risk of economic meltdown???? Sorry but I for one would move all of my capitol out of Scotland if this was happening. AND the transition to Independence managed by an administration that have spent over £400,000,000 on ferries not yet completed , when one of the runs is being served by a ferry which a private operator from Orkney who receives NO SUBSIDY built for £15,000,000

[@jamescarpenter2513]

@@scotonomics1well said Mark. Independence is economic suicide for Scotland.

[@38dragoon38]

Happy Silly Spectacles Day everyone! 🎉

[@rogerhull5632]

Speaking of optimism, what do you think of Tony Seba?

[@user-cn8vb9hh5z]

Reality hits!

[@sdfsdf-sn3mc]

I love how two non-economists say they disagree with the actual Prof in International Economics. I think that goes to the heart of what Mark was saying - the Indy proposition at the moment, simply isn't credible, it is literally "fantasy economics". If the movement embraced Marks critical assessment and genuinely moved to a more honest position , and spent time and energy creating and developing a robust, and credible economic case, people may move towards them. However with Stephen Boyle stating that 50% of our budget will be tied up in healthcare in the next few years I'm not seeing any evidence of current economic competence.

[@scotonomics1]

Mark is a neoclassical economist. We have a heterodox understanding of the economy and fundamentally disagree with much of what he said. Many economists share our views, and many economists at our event did not agree with Mark.

[@kevinwoodburn1]

this is more about hot air than economics that can be applied in Scotland. You're saying stuff without actually saying anything. Classical economics is REAL economics. Fantasy figures based on hopium of independence aren't going to motivate or move people in Scotland to be more productive. Our culture is dragged down by Marxist beliefs taught by the same people offering fantasy futures.

[@stewartyboy]

Heterodox understanding of reality more like.

[@yorkiephil7744]

That's a wee bit like deciding to ask a faith healer to treat your brain tumour rather than a Neurologist. @@scotonomics1

[@tommccallum3877]

@@scotonomics1 it is not a remotely valid criticism to throw out “he’s neoclassical, we are heterodox”. The first is way too simplistic for who Mark is and has shown himself to be. The second is a blanket statement and I could equally name multiple highly regarded heterodox economists who agree broadly with him

[@mrdylanhannah]

There was a lot cut there I was interested in, scraping the surface is really annoying I know there could have been a deeper conversation.

[@scotonomics1]

We didn't cut much out of the interview at all.

[@peterkratoska4524]

Ireland also got a lot of EU investment money. I recall in the early 90s, immigrants to Europe wanted to go everywhere but Ireland.

[@stevenpaterson5100]

Get an expert in and then disagree with what he says when it doesn't suit your agenda!? Di nae laugh,twa gumps shot doon.

[@Sunnysue31]

We change to a district heating system like Denmark ??

[@Mike-zx1kx]

That would by all means reduce imports. If bulk offshore windmills were invested in to cover or exceed national need, income giving emission free green hydrogen could be utilised to power the true future cars/trucks/trains and planes! The industrial revolution green hydrogen will come with are happening NOW! When it comes to industrial revolutions/paradigm shifts, history books are very clear. If you snooze, you loose! Offshore windmill projects can be loan financed because it pays for itself. Thus paying of the debt from such an investment and financing new industrial opportunities could go hand in hand. Denmark now produce over 65% of their entire electricity use emission free via windmills and increasingly offshore such. In a few years they will become net exporters of emission free energy.Danes are a very pragmatic and progressive people in this and deepening Scottish cooperation with their transition technology companies could be one of the ways to not only make a fast profitable transition but also provide Scotland with many great own opportunities to be part of the green hydrogen revolution. Let´s here remember that green hydrogen are made of emission free electricity and water and when burned hydrogen only emits.....wait for it......water! The worlds largest transition project, The North Sea Summit Agreement, were signed in January 2023 between Denmark, Germany, Netherlands and Belgium and will in just a decade transition 220 (!) million Europeans away from fossil/nuclear fuels to emission free energy by placing offshore windmills along the waters of named nations. On top, inside the same agreement, the worlds largest green hydrogen production that on average will produce more green hydrogen than have been produced on this planet to date, daily! The massive amounts of emission free green hydrogen will begin to flow in serious amounts in 8 year from now. 1/get offshore windmill parks to cover and exceed Scottish needs 2/Transition to central heating in at least all urban settings. 3/Produce enough green hydrogen locally to cover the nations needs for the soon to come hydrogen engined cars/trucks/trains and planes! Begin to plan for the future industry NOW by producing green hydrogen from some of current windmills to provide industry and inventors with the hydrogen needed for them to experiment and invent from. Big bubbles, no troubles. Scotland need to reduce energy costs and best way are to invest in making it instead of sending currencies out the nation every day. Industrial revolutions opens up new doors because new industries will have to make (and patent) these new appliances and services. Offshore windmill parks are just a component in this, the value adding opportunities though come from having that component. How many times do you get a chance as an individual and as a nation, to get such an component that actually pays for itself in a lot shorter time than half it´s producing time. If replacing the windmills in 30 years time with new ones they will be even cheaper since the infrastructure then already are in place. BTW. Why on earth are Scotland accepting to risk the groundwater by allowing the insane method of fracking that spews CO2 and methane out while causing earthquakes and potential century long polluted groundwater when offshore windmills can provide risk free emission free profit giving, cost reducing, energy!? Someone MUST have a booming Swiss bank account somewhere because it does not make any sense!

[@Mike-zx1kx]

For reasons I only can speculate over my comment only are visible if you change the default setting from "top comments" above to "newest first" and scroll down to when Sunnysue31 timewise placed comment I responded to. I hope you will.

[@akhalif68]

GDay Good Ppl - I think Blyth's comments are on the "Mark" regarding Scottish "Social Economy"...The political & business elite need sit-down & come up with a comprehensive set of objectives & implement policies that will actually work in a global environment full of chaos and competing naratives...

[@scotonomics1]

There is no "growth model" for Scotland this is clear.

[@mujdawood7892]

You can't decarbonise and still have a good manufacturing sector thst requires cheap energy to get growth in the economy. They has to be deregulation of nuclear power to provide base load power and back it up with cheap henry hub gas.

[@okane-jutsutheartofmoney5503]

Mark is already wrong on Argentina. Milei's Austerity measures and monetary theory of inflation approach is already reducing inflation and increasing confidence in the central bank and broader banking system. Neither crop exports nor carbon production has improved.

[@mikesmall8618]

I'd love Mark to really be challenged about his idea of Growth

[@paulbo9033]

I feel like Mark disappeared. He used to deliver some dope content. Mark we need you. Get back here!

[@allrounder7003]

FFS A Levels at a college in Dundee, whatever next?.

[@RichBlacklock162]

Is it accurate to define Mark Blyth as a neoclassical economist ? Clearly, he doesn't subscribe to a MMT perspective, re: current account constraint. However, he argues austerity is a dangerous idea unlike say NIcky Mcpherson who defended it to the hilt in his debate with Anne Petifor about the subject. Moreover, he wasn't arguing for increasing unemployment when inflation was peaking like say Larry Summers. Although he may not be in agreement with a MMT pathway after independence, I think it's unfair to lump him in with others with less progressive views of his own. Hard to envision many neoclassical economists promoting the work of Brett Christophers as good analysis of market failures within our societies. Blyth talks about Scottish Independence fairly positively on David Mcwilliams podcast here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hna8qH6Xobd_d8k

[@scotonomics1]

Hi Rich. He is. But his worldview is close enough for us to have a meaningful conversation on some very important issues.

[@RichBlacklock162]

​@@scotonomics1I respectfully disagree. What are your criteria for an economist to be classified as Neoclassical ?

[@lutherblissett9070]

To put it simplistically, a neoclassical economist thinks the national economy can be analysed in the same way as a business. Mark does not think this.

[@scotonomics1]

Mark was the ideal guest from the mainstream because he is a dissenter of some neoclassical assumptions, and his economic worldview is within reach of heterodox schools. But he is still a neoclassical economist. Otherwise, he would not be at such a prestigious school! @@lutherblissett9070

[@RichBlacklock162]

I disagree. While if we were to classify him in relation to Josh-Ryan Collin et al's paper "The self-financing state", he has a mainstream view of how governments are financed. However, it's a slippery slope to tag everyone who doesn't agree with MMT a neoclassical. Like it's said in the interview he's a political economist, thus it's unlikely he had to publish neoclassical articles to gain his position at Brown. As someone who has listened to many KZbin videos of Blyth and other academics, I can assure you he isn't neoclassical.

[@peterford436]

The enemy is Das Leihkapital (loan capital), international, wandering loan capital. The enemy is money on loan...

[@Magpie6639]

Bottom.line-scottish independence is not economically viable. Just read GERS reports

[@jimf671]

Mark's head is still in old Dundee. No patience for that.

[@petepritchard]

take the nukes but not the carbon?

[@julianshepherd2038]

British Leyland invented the Range Rover in the 1970s.

[@chrismoule7328]

Yeah and they used to be rusty after 3 years. And before you get all uppity at that fact it's important to note that they are still one of the least reliable cars on the road according to owner surveys.

[@keencyclist6134]

Who knows if you’re right or not mark in any of your speculation but you seem to be pretty seriously batting for team yoon. Think you’re a bit out of touch with the potential renewables powerhouse that Scotland would become post Indy with the right energy policies in place.

[@grantwebster8157]

William you say your views are 'Heterodox' which is defined as 'not conforming with accepted or orthodox standards or beliefs' You think I should risk my retirement and my children's future while Scotland experiments with MMT and other untried and disputed economic policies and theories all while you sun yourself living in Barcelona Spain. You are having a laugh son.

[@scotonomics1]

All economic policies are disputed. The ones who have been following for the last 40 years are clearly not working. Don't you think we should look at the objectives? Or just say, oh well. I don't and neither do the 1000s of progressive people and organisations in Scotland coalescing around the idea of wellbeing. I have to persuade you that the reason you, most people, and our planet are in this dire state is precisely because we have not followed ideas outside of the mainstream. This economics school has permanence because it defends the rights of those who already have all of the power and wealth. A heterodox approach in the main is a more progressive one with a belief that wellbeing and equality is a better way to secure a future for people, place and planet. I am up for trying.

[@grantwebster8157]

I am sure that we would agree about much of the problem HOWEVER I sent a little time today visiting 3 Wealthy SNP voting friends I showed them the debt default plan and MMD theory I then asked them given these policies whether they would leave their capitol in Scottish currency, all independently and instantly said that they would move a substantial portion of their capitol to England or another reserve currency one said he would register his Ltd companies in England AND THESE ARE THE SNP SUPPORTERS. You would cause one of the largest capitol flights in history. @@scotonomics1

[@patrickcoleman5525]

All economic policies are disputed….some slightly more than others. The average SNP activist is in their 60s with a good pension and a paid off mortgage. There is nothing remotely “progressive” about them, they would happily play experimental economics for the sake of the dream.

[@emmaboyd7908]

Competence first, then independence, not independence & hope for the best 😣 - so far, Scottish politicians I’ve seen are small-minded & inexperienced, they do not inspire confidence in thinking people, or these day ANY people. Long term plans required over short-term personal aspirations

[@pasodoble5070]

The idea of using economics at all to argue for independence is rather odd. No country ever became independent for economic reasons (except maybe for the Confederacy?) No country got wealthier as a result of being independent.

[@huna1950]

He likes his understandable tirade occasionally about corporate not paying CT …then talks up Ireland with a ‘Boston investment’ line since he lives there etc…but fails to say those corporates MOVED to Ireland due to low CT hence big big part of the growth boom etc…. Like many very selective to his slant blah blah blah

[@peterkratoska4524]

and Ireland also got a huge amount of EU funding when it joined. I still recall the early 90s when the Ireland was last place for any immigrants who wanted to go to Europe. They invested in education, software, engineering etc.

[@huna1950]

@@peterkratoska4524 yes….which again is my point…Blyth makes droll fast paced statements that are partial at best… Bear in mind….there’s two types of immigrants. Many clever folks from say Southern Europe have moved there and assimilated and gave lots of added value -but obviously huge rental costs to everyone house prices etc Then there’s the massive invasion in more so Dublin of non English speaking on the run types….much like the rest of Europe but they have a bit of a bigger buffet from the sea in that regard

[@Batwal99onUtube]

He does mention Ireland having favourable taxes though

[@stavroskarageorgis4804]

Overwhelmingly men? Average (sic) Trumper?

[@comeonman8191]

30:28 listen to an amazing truth bomb be met with the pathetic response of “ I disagree but I wish we had time to discuss this”. Clueless.

[@scotonomics1]

We had a whole conference countering these arguments. This was an opening session for an event designed to address these issues. Context is important. And this is just one Economist's opinion.

[@comeonman8191]

@@scotonomics1 The only thing that proves is that you can spend the whole duration of a conference talking I’ll-thought out nonsense.

[@huna1950]

To be fair Blyth was just riding the wave early doors and taking a cheque for his dinner dancing Once he’s seen how the world has unfolded in the last 4 years he’s back tracked on some of his points on other subjects And realised demography in Scotland is terminal along with a lot of the psyche sadly Also things like Sturgoens fear campaign was detrimental to business and growth If she was in she’d still have small micro closed and wearing masks etc Higher interest rates and capital shortage has put paid to that daft mess along with actually a lot of the green tradition nonsense Blyth talks about happening…

[@DavidSandeman]

Mark contradicts himself and is no real economist rather a so called political scientist. He is partly wrong on austerity, very wrong on Argentina, he says he's too old for fantasy economics but seems to engage in this subject. Guesswork and supposition

[@scotonomics1]

As you know David we would say the same about his economic views as he says about ours. That's the nature of the science.

[@DavidSandeman]

Who are you exactly? Anyone knows that economics is a social science, which revolves around relationships between individuals and societies. Economics is not a science due to a lack of testable hypotheses and ability to achieve consensus. If you are Mark then you got Argentina very wrong

[@huna1950]

Why he does his tirade often about corporate tax then cites Ireland as a poster for going it alone success …but then fails to state they have had a Hong Kong Celtic version of low CT… And then talks fast and droll to obscure his half baked thoughts

[@Batwal99onUtube]

What's he wrong about?

[@stavroskarageorgis4804]

His comments re MMT were juvenile. He's said that Fox Mulder of MMT malarkey before and proceeded to talk fast and folksy out of actually having to defend his position. L. Randall Wray has been dealing with the BoP/current account constraint red herring for decades and eviscerating, but all the thick-headed PKers keep bringing it up ad nauseam.