Steve Keen: Marxism, Capitalism, and Economics | Lex Fridman Podcast

[@lexfridman]

Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Weights & Biases: lexfridman.com/wnb - Skiff: skiff.org/lex - Indeed: indeed.com/lex to get $75 credit - NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - InsideTracker: insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off 1:51 - Defining economics 8:50 - Schools of economics 33:10 - Karl Marx 51:24 - Labor theory of value 1:11:10 - Socialism 1:26:12 - Soviet Union 1:39:33 - China 1:59:24 - Climate change 2:21:27 - Economics vs Politics 2:29:30 - Minsky's model 2:44:14 - Financial crisis 2:49:31 - Inflation 3:02:46 - Marxism 3:10:06 - Space and AI 3:16:11 - Advice for young people 3:20:02 - Depression 3:24:35 - Love 3:28:35 - Mortality

[@jeffk464]

What if the reason socialism fails is that you get the wrong people in charge of organizations. Under Capitalism its kind of survival of the fittest so the reason an organization is successful is because the organization is able to start up and maintain its success is because the people running are extremely competent and making the right decisions. Once the people running the organization start making bad decisions the organization gets pushed out by another one. So under socialism you get the people in charge appointed so its political not based on competence. You could end up with someone like Alexandria Cortez running your rocket company instead of Elon Musk. This could be the fundamental reason Socialism doesn't produce innovation or efficiency. So you need capitalism but it needs to be regulated by a government to cut out some of the abuses of pure capitalism. The problem comes in win the powerful capitalists corrupt the government, so the government is controlled by them rather than the government regulating the capitalists.

[@JamesOGant]

To many people who are living paycheck to paycheck There’s nothing more real or tangible than money and debt, and if you told some people that some guy walked on water and he came back to life many would say “that’s bullshit”, but if you told them there was more debt than there was money to pay the debts many of them would be confused having assumed that the most tangible and real thing in their lives, is a fraudulent magical system. It’s a system which is much more than necessarily flawed, where cantillionaires are propped up by the money system who then use their money to buy the government to reinforce the system of oligarchy. And in the end none of this is actually even good for the cantillionaires much less for the environment or the average person. Many of these same people talk about free markets and innovation and freedom and democracy but they hate all of these things. Meanwhile the religions of the world have the right idea when it comes to economics - cancel the debts on jubilee as a way to restart the economies and the religions banned usury debts.

[@karookaroo]

I don't know if you will see this, I want to thank you. This world would be a much darker realm of "unknowns" without your contribution.

[@insertcolorfulmetaphor8520]

I'm really enjoying this episode so far, just ten minutes in... Hopefully he mentions UBI, when talking about how consumer economies are doomed to fail, if the majority of consumers can't participate. Add in more automation... This is why direct Government investment of cash into each individual person is needed. Either a UBI or a Basic Income. The hidden benefits will manifest in ways that crime goes down, police don't need to be an occupying force in economically depressed areas, and new forms of tax revenues generated from more independent small businesses serving local needs... UBI is desperately needed. Millennials are less likely to have savings, IRAs, own homes... By 2034, the SSA Trust is out of money, meaning only $700 gets paid out for every $1000 due from SS retirement for people born after 1965...

[@NoreenHoltzen]

Absolutely great that you got this severely underrated and historically great economist on. Thank you!

[@maryebert5897]

As an engineer, in the US Capitalist system, we designed appliances to fail, on purpose, shortening their life span, from 30-40 years, to 10 years. It is called design obsolescence. We put a tiny cheap part in these new appliances, as a design feature, so they fail. This new phenomenon is in monopolies, which have no competition, such as Whirlpool. They have bought up all competition, and don’t worry about losing market share, if their product is inferior. Design Obsolescence creates profits, while destroying our natural resources, as we put perfectly good appliances, in the landfill, so that a corporation can make profits. I find this practice unethical. And it is rampant in modern day Capitalism.

[@tyronewashington230]

I think you should always buy the most expensive thing, that way everything you've ever bought will last forever. How's that titanium VCR running? You're not a engineer, you're a Leftist propagandists, be real to who you are. Anyone can buy a $30 sewing machine that's going to last 100 hours or spend $6,000 for one that will last 40,000 hours. Both are designed with planned obsolescence because it's stupid to make things no one wants or no one can afford.

[@conceptAIart]

And the funny thing is, I've known this for years so what I've been doing is noticing things that regularly break, for example my deep fryer's igniter keeps breaking every 6 months and the first time we had to call in a repair man, and he took couple hundreds for call out and basically swapped a little plastic knob. I went online and bought 20 of those knobs from Ebay and now when it breaks, I just replace it myself. It's crazy what people can do with a bit of tinkering.

[@azzy9358]

There is a theory of capitalism that creates different incentives for manufacturers. Lets say for ex. the Whirpool and fridge or a washing machine. You dont buy the machine, you buy / rent a service of "I want this much space for a fridge and with these parameters", same for a washing machine. That gives companies different incentives. I think it is a worthy and fascinating way of changing some industries within capitalism. As that is the main issue we face, incentives. They are set wrong on many levels.

[@JustinFisher777]

Well there's also an input regarding how much people can or will pay for quality which can come at a price. I'm not sure which problem comes first, monopoly or thrift. But the first is a public issue and the second a private issue. The current system ignores the former while putting all the explanation on the later. It's fascinating how subjects like this, which are questions of engineering design, quickly become so ideological as to be theological.

[@tyronewashington230]

@@conceptAIart You choose to buy more of the fragile cheap plastic knobs instead of a expensive steel knob. Your choice signals what to manufacture.

[@SteveKeenProf]

Lex, heading your finishing line again, that I’m a “Deadly Bastard”, literally made me laugh out loud. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for the invitation (and the opportunity to indulge my inner geek, thanks to you, and see Starbase).

[@peterplotts1238]

Well, he's half right.

[@martintraphagen3698]

Would love to hear you and Noam Chomsky or Richard Wolff talk. Thanks a lot for this discussion.

[@kenjera5873]

That was an enthralling journey Steve, thanks for being a fascinating guide.. Thanks Lex for the chance to join you on it...

[@jinsugarbrown]

interesting discussion on socialism and innovation, I wonder how you would integrate slave (and colonization) labor into the "capitalist" innovation? What is the nature of the "exploitation" that you didn't really dissect (somewhere around 129mins) ? This would have been interesting especially since you are an Australian British colony (what is that back idea of the common wealth)

[@71whitey]

Good to see an Aussie on the podcast.

[@giacmon85]

This is possibly the hardest podcast I’ve ever listened to

[@rufuscollis303]

painful

[@NateBear]

So hard to keep all that terminology on my head at once

[@charlieb8735]

35 minutes in and 90% of what has been said is generally accepted basic economic definitions, with only his opinions on equilibrium vs stability really being at all controversial. Economics, as it exists, is a painful set of self-sustaining contradictions of reality. I think the best way to follow what’s being said is to accept that your likely well informed view of what reality is that you’ve built up over your lifetime has very little to do with the way modern mainstream economics. When words overlap from one to the other, it’s reasonable to assume a modern economist thinks it’s something incompatibly different. What’s being argued here is largely common sense, in my opinion, but put into the language of modern economics and mathematics is essentially a separate language.

[@maltfusion6743]

Yeah fairytales and communist coblledycook shite.

[@MrSemanticprison]

I feel like he uses jargon and namedropping to obscure super basic concepts just intellectually gooning all over lex

[@williampeynsaert]

The high sparrow from Game of Thrones has a side job as an economist. Who knew? Great conversation, as always.

[@zacharypettis5277]

LOLLLalL

[@adamdevereaux2459]

Just like always- you think you have an original thought and someone else beats you to it!

[@jeandrepeach]

I half expected him to take off his face halfway through to reveal that the real guest was in fact Arnold Vosloo

[@stevensimpson2954]

Lol once you see it, you can’t Unsee it

[@themeach011]

I'm upset I missed this. Spotting doppelgangers is a hobby of mine. Nice catch. Lol

[@tigrebttg]

You can tell Lex really liked his guest because he challenged him all the time. When he hosts a "dangerous" interviewee he's usually very careful when to chime in and go for a tough question. First example that comes to my mind was the exchange about "friction" with Douglas Murray.

[@Qasibr]

Or his interview with Sam Altman. Lex didn't challenge him, even on obvious guffaws.

[@mikeyfreeman5776]

@@QasibrI think he needs to walk a fine line talking to extremely powerful people. after all Same Altman is one of the people who could really fuck with Lex’s career and livelihood. And if Lex wants to keep having the biggest names on the planet on his podcast he can’t afford to alienate them.

[@stevenzapiler5806]

The breadth of your interviews and this gentlemen's authentic bravery and honesty are a perfect storm for expanding knowledge. Bravo.

[@ПродажаВещей-д3е]

This is erroneous knowledge, misinformation and revisionism. Figure out, what the transferred value is, then you will understand why machines do not create new value.

[@OM-or3im]

One of my biggest “issues” with economics has always been what Lex pointed out in his question, “do they not consider a worker a human being?” They really don’t when you read economics. Workers aren’t viewed as humans nor are the consequences of lay offs or other actions that affect workers are considered as particularly bad. The idea is that the workers will just learn a new trade (which is totally not how it works in real life).

[@ibis0921]

For sure. If we had to regard humans as beings rather than as a resource we would be forced to make some pretty substantial changes.

[@CarlyonProduction]

The motivating force in capitalism is profit - not supporting the needs of human beings. All those decisions you point out are related to the pursuit of profit.

[@businessfreedom4321]

Econmics is a science(soft not hard but still a science) their job is to tell if a and b what happen next...what is right and wrong is out of the science goal...also if think that economist don t know that the more old a person is the more hard is it to retrain him in to a new job u have a totaly distorted idea of the subject...the fact is what is the alternative? Let everybody continue do a job that s not profitable just becouse is hard to them find a new job?in somecases can be done but if this become the norm an economic sistem will collapse...also usualy the kind of job somebody will be retrain in to is a very similar one a factory work will search for an other factory job where the skill set is almost the same...

[@vitokonte]

​@@CarlyonProduction What do you mean? I don't know about you, but from my experience, businesses do not succeed if they fail to produce a desirable product by the majority (people). Especially if businesses are given more freedom to innovate and are not constrained too much. I have hundreds of examples of businesses that make me happy and support my needs - and much better than, for example state-run services. Many many examples.

[@justincavinder5504]

@@CarlyonProduction yet the majority of happy people that I know work in the private sector, not for the government. And I know plenty in both sectors.

[@chrisweidner4768]

I’ve recently retired. Now my true education begins. Thank you and all the best to everyone. Enjoy every day. My fear is that money will continue losing the buying power planned for in my retirement, Seems that, except for the criminals that rig the game, making ends meet grows ever more challenging. This must end. Power must be stewards for humanity.

[@monotonous1763]

Cheers beat of luck for the new journey

[@rsotis]

Power will never, and has never, been stewards for anyone else but itself. Power and government must be exterminated. All history proves it.

[@StevenMartinGuitar]

If you go to the shop with money... and come back without the money but instead with a loaf of bread to eat... Then money does indeed have value. Stop paying all your bills. See if the value you've been getting in return is taken away from you.

[@hikerjoe3773]

"My fear is that money no longer has value". Precision is important with issues like this. What you possibly mean is "Money has decreasing value in an opaque system I don't understand." Inadvertently use sweeping binaries? Be prepared to be fooled by them.

[@chrisweidner4768]

@@gwho Please watch “The Money Masters.” Then get back to me on my “sloppy and emotional thinking.”

[@markscovello]

I listen to a great many podcsts, but I have gotten so much more out of this one than any other. Great; now I have another person whose collective works I have to read. Thank you for making these talks available.

[@ActualFactsRacing]

Wow. One of, if not my favorite conversations you've had. Please have him back.

[@trel9388]

@@ssssds5254 what a weird fucking comment, and you edited it lmao

[@DanielR1233]

Okay commie

[@gr4078]

@@ssssds5254 what a weird comment to get angry at

[@aa2339]

That thread about banks, assets, liabilities and money creation wasn't fully developed.

[@CarlyonProduction]

Appreciate lex getting a more diverse range of voices on the show. Steve is a very smart guy.

[@mario9318]

Barely thirty minutes in and I know that I'm going to have to watch this several times

[@aguysaid5457]

Make it 5, 5 minutes in

[@hustonswanson4106]

@@aguysaid5457right? Hahah it did not take me 30 minutes to realize imma need to listen to this one SEVERAL times.

[@syon600]

Me too.

[@mekatielogan]

I made it almost 12min. Holy heck! I will watch again

[@hogey74]

This is my third time lol.

[@Banana_Split_Cream_Buns]

I bought his book "Debunking Economics" back in the day (15 years ago??) and I was 1 of a small handful of people who voted for him to represent New South Wales in the Australian Senate (his party was a micro party that didn't have money or run a big campaign... hence he didn't have a chance). I'm always surprised why he hasn't become more well known, but his perspective is worth observing when trying to navigate the complex field of economics.

[@BiancaAguglia]

What books would you recommend to someone who is just starting to seriously study economics and wants to get a balanced exposure to important ideas in economics? Beginners are often exposed to mainstream ideas only, and, if it happens at all, it takes them a while to discover on their own the less known yet valuable ones. 🙂

[@pcraig1383]

@@BiancaAguglia Check out The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton! There are vids of her available too.

[@lancegrandis6230]

@@graham6132 Ya, didn't he turn out to be wrong about practically EVERYTHING?

[@xmathmanx]

@@BiancaAguglia 'adults in the room' by yannis varoufakis is very eye opening

[@xmathmanx]

@@graham6132 yeah, you know the people you dont agree with are all crazy, very reasonable man

[@MrClockw3rk]

You’re becoming excellent at the simplified breakdowns Lex. Keep going, it’s really great work.

[@zachglynn2792]

it's actually him rewording and re-framing what was actually said by his guest. not something that I feel will benefit him.

[@philjames5145]

I had the pleasure of having Steve as an university lecturer many years ago - he was as brilliant then as he is now.

[@KasturiWren]

Me too! Steve made me love economics

[@luker.6967]

Wow! That’s awesome. Definitely am inspiring mind.

[@vernontaylor7950]

If you can't win. You can't take away there is no free lunch and nothing changes. I'm with you on responsibility respect of all life. We know nothing of climate we know a lot about how to use our environment. At what evolutionary right should any human should not use any action that expands his or hers genetic influence????? We are by law. Not lore. And numbers can't hunt and gather 😢

[@sspbrazil]

I’ve posted this many times on various interviews with economists Lex has done, but he needs to have Yanis Varoufakis on his show.

[@edkv8935]

Techno Feudalism.

[@_audacity2722]

Yanis is a hack

[@ravi95730]

Absolutely

[@bye92]

A Russian communist

[@Eternalspring22]

Yes please.

[@bobbyboyce6174]

I have to say that lex's podcast is one of the most interesting pieces of information you can ingest.

[@elchacouy3793]

Lex was planted, because I haven’t been recommended Anything on KZbin for over 4 years, so you tell me! I watch 10-20 videos per day and nothing for years….

[@tmkim]

Perfect timing to hear this wonderful talk. I do so appreciate Lex and your wit and being ok with not knowing and asking a most fundamental and yet powerful question of: "What is money?" and then in a incisive manner offer this: “That is not French it is another language and I will explain it to you another day….” My wife who is French never understood why this idiom is used in English. Thank you

[@Fischer3DP]

Wow, I really didn't expect to see Steve Keen on this podcast. Thanks Lex! What an awesome episode.

[@bryce3907]

@@tasd5673 you literally watched this and did not take in a single word did you?

[@OzzyBoganTech]

@@tasd5673 WTF ?? are you a bot or truly that stupid

[@KhanJohn7]

This podcast taught me more about economics than my entire undergraduate business curriculum.

[@richardstokstad9271]

One of the top 10 of all your interviews Lex.

[@boatsandbeards303]

Lex's best podcast as a very capable interviewer. Keen is intellectual but accessible and breaks down a complex area of his expertise. Lex did a good job. I think his most confident at pushing back, but objectively.

[@nosuchperson284]

This was great. I've listened to Keen a bit talking his economic viewpoints but this was far ranging and he expounded on a lot of things that surprised me. It's a little intimidating listening to someone so thoughtful and well read. While I have thought his economic ideas interesting, it really fleshes them out in other ways knowing all his considerations. I haven't even gotten through the entire interview without having to re-listen to some of his explanations. A fine job Lex!

[@juancarlosmartinez3621]

I’ve also gone back to replay several parts of this remarkable interview.

[@jeremytappero]

@@juancarlosmartinez3621 kc Yeah Yeah I’ll Oiiiiiii P

[@beyondrecall9446]

This is hilarious ! 😂 Well, Lex ... It's easy to listen about black holes, astrophysics, theoretical physics, gravitational ripples, A.I. but this is on another level.. damn great show !

[@lcstyle2029]

Steve Keen is the Rickest of ricks! He is Rick C-137!!!

[@anyariv]

agree 100%

[@Relic5150]

It's because the human brain is the most complex thing we know that exists in the universe...and we created economics...lol

[@roc7880]

we can visualize physical objects easily, but economics is more elusive.

[@sof553]

Please get Michael Hudson on. He is unparalleled when it comes to economics and has a fascinating history and background.

[@subucni113]

He already had Michael Saylor on. No need! JK.. More opinions the better.

[@webfreakz]

yes!!! I'll pay for his airplane ticket hotel anything!!

[@HegelianSlut1807]

Agree. A study of both Keen and Hudson has helped bring a great deal of clarity to my observations of the world. Calmness follows clarity for my fellow anxious types.

[@nrhoofcare7724]

Facts

[@jakeforsythe4083]

@@subucni113 saylor has said some of the dumbest shit in history.

[@KJ-yk4nq]

Lex’s episode output is immense, it’s always worth listening to and looking forward to this one. To his credit he always looks from both sides and embraces the differing viewpoints

[@laronda10]

He did a lot of filming/interviews before he left for ukraine to fill the gap

[@KJ-yk4nq]

@scabthecat Exactly ! An incredible amount of content to prepare for … yet makes it look easy !

[@adamdrouin2295]

And that's what makes this podcast so special

[@steveodavis9486]

I think he understands Marxism better than any communist has yet. Use value and exchange value . Labor is only one element of economics utopian/dystopian ideas resulted in socialism-communism. Authortarian governments rely on top down control stifling individual liberties and innovations which constrains progress.

[@vernontaylor7950]

Lex your wide ranging interest and interviews should be shown in all schools across the world

[@stevenfeldstein6224]

I’ve seen a bunch of talks by prof. Steve Keen and this is the first time I was able to follow his line of thought. Thanks

[@158-i6z]

I wrote an essay on socialism... it got full Marx.

[@CarloJS]

🤣🤣

[@stickjohnny]

@Samuel Dixon you can like it now

[@unwavery]

wakka wakka 😁

[@siljrath]

and 99 thumbs up..

[@djeyron1049]

Teacher: get out!

[@elmorganou]

Third time lucky...I have been trying to watch this bloody podcast for ages...every time I settle down with a beer and my cat " no sarcastic remarks you bastards " something or someone gets in the way... it was worth the wait mind you, pretty sure the cat agrees with you to lad. Good man, thank you for your time 🤙

[@badcarlos551]

Best podcast on KZbin. I have to say, I was getting a bit put off by the lack of differing political opinions on the show a while back (one libertarian after another), but recently Lex has been smashing it. Keep it up and thank you for having the courage and patience for listening to so many viewpoints

[@brandonmcdougal455]

i go to sleep listening to Lex every day. best therapy ever. your a phenomenal human being man. keep it up

[@joelabraham-ck4xk]

It is the balance or the synthesis of the two systems. Thank you for trying to bring more love and understanding into the world. I'm grateful that you allow for civil discourse between opposing ideas. This is what journalism used to accomplish.

[@jans724]

I recently discovered this channel and I am amazed at how good this guy Lex Fridman is at interviewing in-depth and conducting a great conversation with interesting guests. I knew Steve Keen (who is great!), but Lex Fridman is somebody the BBC could only dream of having for a special programme anchor (like they perhaps did 40 years ago). To have a 3 hour in-depth talk on Marxist economics, surplus value..., history of economic doctrine.... WOW! It take a lot of skill to both keep the high level and bring the guest to explain on a basic level, put focus on the guest while also knowing how to probe further into the subject discussed.... and Lex Fridman is masteful at it! And what a great guest to bring on! Great that I discovered this channel which I will now follow.

[@Pigeon-envelope]

This discussion is at the nexus of all the different chains of thought I've been having over the past few years

[@pleblover]

Well said

[@brandonross2556]

Amen 🙏

[@j0t324]

Lol - Steve understood "the french" just fine :) Great sense of humour along with massive historical knowledge. I thoroughly enjoyed his perspectives.

[@joshingm]

Lex's humor was on point and has been lately. Also his pushbacks are superb

[@xXI0wOIXx]

Must be on that alpah brain from jre product line

[@lawrencefrost9063]

No. His quips here are lame. Cringe.

[@joshingm]

@@lawrencefrost9063 You're lame

[@markrogers6360]

Even though I strongly disagree with some of his political views regarding freedom and the pros and cons of a top down, authoritarian government, I loved the discussion and his teachings on different economic schools of thought. Hands down the best discussion I've heard on learning the basics of Marx's theories. You did a great job of getting definitions of basic terms that are often given different meanings by different schools of thought. Made for a deep and much clearer discussion. Well done!

[@CurtOntheRadio]

I thought it was terrible on basics of Marx. No class, no historical materialism, no epochs, no alienation, no superstructure, no forces of production, no relations of production, no proles.....I'm not sure how anyone would get a sense of Marxism out of it tbh. I speak as a fan of Steve Keen, just think the Marxism section was really unclear and even incoherent. Difficult to see how what Steve said would lead to production of 'The Communist Manifesto' IMO.

[@donaldhysa4836]

Anybody who treats Marx seriously is a moron

[@bradojacko8247]

Not much of a discussion. More of a longwinded one-sided free advertisement for authoritarian leftism without any pushback from lex. Again. As usual. Do you think Lex would give such free airtime to a nonestablishment hard right winger, let alone give them no pushback or argumentative debate?

[@haalogen1917]

@@bradojacko8247 cope

[@xraceboyex]

@@haalogen1917 Cope? This guy was literally arguing that inflation is a good thing (counterfeiting money is okay because the government will totally decide to only do it for "good reasons" without any oversight." This guy is a clown

[@MOzarkMike]

One of your most enlightening and thought provoking interviews! For one who has studied and thought about economic theories and their impact on the human condition, this was a feast!

[@3DPrinterAcademy]

Hey Lex! I appreciate the big picture summaries you do during the podcast to help keep both a wide big picture with context while still diving deep into topics at other points of the podcast! -Steven

[@nickdelonas]

You have some of the very best guests and conversations. Super happy that you had on Steve Keen. He's one of my favorite economists. Suggested future guests: Alice J. Friedemann, Michael Hudson, Nate Hagens, Cyrus Khambatta, and Michael Greger.

[@deviantsid18]

I think the humor especially at the end is quite refreshing in the middle of deep conversation

[@mewimagine5920]

As an Australian I love hearing the accent in contrast to the American majority I listen to on youtube. We really flap our gums in the wind hoping for coherence

[@arabusov]

Do you mean Lex's accent?

[@arabusov]

@@Puppies-z9h if only I could distinguish australian from american...

[@WilliamParkerer]

@@arabusov There's a big difference...

[@kennymichaelalanya7134]

@@arabusov Like Steve said using words like "Bastard" can be seen as a negative in USA but in Australia it's Seen as a positive word but of course it depends on the context and the tone of how the word is used. There's words that Americans don't use that Australians use and vice versa such as Crikey or Oi.

[@jonathanmoermans3388]

For those interested in the double entry bookkeeping system: it was conceived by Pacioli.

[@tom4115]

I thought it was the Medicis?

[@S54VR6]

Bitcoin fixes this

[@bobthetroll]

Any other accountants out there?

[@surfingbilly9654]

@@bobthetroll 😴accountants rn

[@alexmckercher3176]

I'm pretty sure the first law of thermodynamics is you don't talk about thermodynamics.

[@_jamesdphillips]

Thanks for speaking with Keen. If you’re interested in alternative economics you should also interview Michael Hudson sometime!

[@norbertmocan1407]

100%

[@sof553]

Was thinking the exact same thing. Hudson has a fascinating mind and perspective. Killing the Host and Forgive them their Debts are amazing books on economics.

[@Brian0wns]

I would see Steve a lot over the years on like a Kaiser Report or other smaller financial channels. This was really nice to hear him longer than a 20 min interview. It seems like this is how an intro to higher level Econ classes should be.

[@jsimonlarochelle]

He started me reading again on economics with his last book. I ordered several of the books he recommends in this book (The new Economics). Very interesting books. I'm almost through with the MMT macro book and enjoying it very much. Great interview. Thanks.

[@RadicallyHonestAutist]

The deficit myth by Stephanie Kelton is very good.

[@jsimonlarochelle]

@@RadicallyHonestAutist Yes it is. I read Stephanie's book before Keen's. Stephanie Kelton's book is an easier read. However, if you want to dig you have to get some textbooks.

[@wellyman2008]

@@jsimonlarochelle Read Lyn ALden's book for the best synopsis on money - I have been looking for a book like that for ten years

[@jsimonlarochelle]

@@wellyman2008 Thanks ! I will get a copy.

[@cryptoconsultancy7114]

Steve Keen is such an incredible thinker and teacher. The world will soon realise that Keynesian thinking has stolen from our future and when this happens Steve will be given the credit he deserves. Thanks once again Lex.

[@josef2012]

Crimes against Humanity,in my book.

[@katiecannon8186]

Keen *is* a Keynesian. He’s part of the Post Keynesian tradition - which is more true to Keynes than mainstream “Keynesians” like Paul Krugman - or whoever.

[@AlanAttack]

The Lex Fridman show......Is THE best thing that ever hit the internet.

[@pokergeniusordonkey6517]

Resistance to Marx leads to Fascism. Ignoring Marx leads to Communism. Karl Marx wrote about Capitalism. Karl Marx is probably the most important thinker in the capitalist world, and that's why he's the most cancelled thinker in the capitalist world.

[@dnyhan]

Fascinating and thought provoking episode, nice work.

[@steveodavis9486]

He makes more sense to me than any economist I've listened too. Love his explanations of different economic models but hard to retain. Have to listen to this a few times Lex to wrap my mind around it.

[@TheNemesis442]

by the mere definition of something making sense, you wouldn't need to listen to it multiple times to understand it. he just succeeded in confusing you in a way that made you think you understood. for example when talks about economics needing to use differential equations he makes it sound like it doesn't, but economics does use differential equations. differential equations is typically used to model motion and economics, its called growth. in fact, differential equations is extensively in derivatives pricing and volatility modeling. this guy either is lying or doesn't know what he's talking about.

[@Ballosopheraptor]

​@@TheNemesis442 Man are you for real? Derivatives pricing is finance, not economics. Finance uses all sorts of advanced mathematics and algorithms because they have a profit motive, if they do a bad job they lose money. When we're talking about economics, the problem is that someone can win the nobel prize with a theory that is mathematically elegant and simple, but has no practical value or application in the real world. When criticizing neoclassical mainstream economics, the criticism is of the general class of DSGE models which DO NOT use differential equations and simply assume natural stability in the system. Keen's point is that if you have an economic model that by the nature of it's construction can't model how complex feedback loops can lead to an economic crash, your model is obviously trash, because we've seen this happen over and over again, we know it happens. Mainstream economics takes it on faith that the economy is naturally self-equilibrating, and that anything that throws the economy out of equilibrium is an "exogenous shock", rather than making any attempt to actually model the problem. So for instance in 2008, we end up blaming "perverse incentives" and illegal activity in the banking sector for messing up what would otherwise have been a perfectly perfect economy, rather than actually looking at the unsustainable build up in private debt and the role of that credit creation in sustaining overall aggregate demand... He's not talking about derivatives pricing models used in finance which have an extremely narrow purpose and scope of their modeling. He's talking about models of the overall macro economy that can be usefully used to inform policy choices.

[@TheNemesis442]

@@Ballosopheraptor well, yes. derivatives pricing models are used to try to find an objective measure of value, which is what you do in economics. economics is how you deal scarcity and scarcity is heavily influenced by objective value. i dont see much of a difference here. the semantics may be a little different, but not the principal.

[@DavidMaisterra-mx4vj]

Lex, you’re more intelligent and capable of understanding complex topics, then breaking them down in your mind and explaining them, than most of your viewing audience, which is why many of us love listening to you. If you’re not getting it, we’re not getting it. Slow this guy down!

[@fusedgamer4341]

It all sounds incredibly complicated to determine what system of society and economy is optimal between capitalism and Marxism which blew the interviewer’s mind!!! This is what Thomas Sewell warned us of as the greatest threat is stupid smart people 😂 Marxism is a utopian ideology that ignores the fundamental reality of all species and especially humans who have higher intelligence the need to be able to directly improve your circumstances and security from your individual effort!!! In addition we are all guilty of overvaluing our own contribution and perceiving the efforts of others as less than our own!! This always leads to plummeting output, the good workers become resentful of the people who aren’t willing to use their abilities for a better proportion of a greater good and then they intentionally do less than the lazy ones thinking it would force the other to do their fair share but all it does is create a race to bread lines and cannibalism in the most fertile under populated lands on earth every time!! Inheritance is what distorts capitalism, but the ability to pass some wealth to your children is an essential component of making productive people responsible with their assets and be willing to reinvest surplus to fund other activities that boost the society!! But inheritance is unearned wealth and not acquired by effort!! Capitalism is a fundamental component of our primary human instinct and our mental health and satisfaction can only be healthy if we have the opportunity to directly improve our lives and our immediate family!! But wealth should be generational and surpluses above a proportional inheritance should be reinvested into society to maximise equal opportunity for all so we get most benefit from their ability!! Nothing else needs discussion!! Humans are hierarchical species and instinctively spend our lives looking for better ways of doing everything we do right down to how we dry ourselves after a shower or tie our shoelaces we continuously look to streamline all the tasks we perform.. BUT we expect to receive a reward that is directly proportional to how hard we try and how efficient we can make ourselves?! In a communist society that distributes wealth based on need not contribution it will always result in the most productive people (20% or less based on the universal perodo principle that 80% of production comes from 20% of the people!!) becoming the most resentful, disruptive citizens because they notice most and become obsessed with preventing any other being the beneficiaries of their efforts! A year later they are eating their neighbours starved corpses once the zoo animals have all been eaten!! Not a single society has ever installed a true communist system, they have always resulted in collapse and millions of deaths by poverty or torture that is unavoidable in trying to implement utopia on a society who are denied the divine right to determine their own destiny!!!! Don’t need marginal this and up or down that etc etc.. Just need to logically understand that everyone benefits when the people with the highest ability are able to influence their situation enough to keep them striving forward and allowing them to pass enough to their family to make them responsible but have rules that require beneficiaries to use their unearned wealth to better themselves and their communities or it must be repurposed?! Generational capitalism without cronyism, This debate has been echoing for centuries and everyone hopes to identify the perfect balance and solution?!! But that’s the problem, 8 billion people from hundreds of countries, many religions and human experiences make it impossible for a perfect solution.. but generational capitalism is the least bad of 2 bad choices!! Xx

[@RDRKpdx]

“He switched from weed to cocaine?” “He switched from Ricardo to Hegel”

[@ducdao1679]

Steve Keen is on point as always. I’ve read two of his books: New Economics and Can We Avoid Another Recession. Working on Debunking Economics.

[@zhouye7647]

As an econ student, It is fun to see how economics blowed Lex's mind, for how smart he is, I felt better after failed my exam.

[@anglonrx2754]

As an econ student you'd probably realise how bad and overcomplicated his explanations are too I don't blame lex. Like for Marx they went on for 10 minutes over exchange and use values not understanding anything where it's as simple as: exchange value is what you buy a commodity for, use value is what it's value is to you and labour is the source of all value as it's the only commodity where use value exceeds exchange value

[@williamolliffe2302]

Nope labour is not the source of value.

[@mattgilbert7347]

​@@anglonrx2754Lex was so sense on Value. I would say that Labor is *a* source of all value.

[@0_Danilo]

30min in my nose is bleeding and I just opened a portal to the upside down with my mind. AMAZING conversation, kudos Lex and Steve 👏

[@MrUmbilical]

Holy smokes… I’ve never seen Lex reaching his thinking capacity. Tricky subject, economics.

[@tom4115]

It is when steve is seemingly trying to confuse him.

[@wills242]

He has plenty of times. Endearingly honest and humble dood

[@jorgemartinez42069]

@@nenadmatic7166 Perhaps this is due to it's inherently social and constructed nature when compared to "hard" sciences rather than being difficult because it is technically demanding, though you can certainly go deep into the technical side as well.

[@cjlooklin1914]

@@tom4115 lol, how? He spoke fairly plainly, and didn't even use too much economic jargon. Yes he used "big" words, but God dammit have you ever considered that BIG WORDS ARE FUN? Can you not understand how boring and even painful it could be to speak plainly for 4 hours, what's even the point of having a conversation with someone if you don't find having the conversation to be engaging in the first place. These men both have PHDs for christ sake, let them live a little, sheesh. P.S. if you really can't understand the appeal of big words, I recommend you watch the animated sitcom "Archer", or anything made by Quentin Tarantino. The power of clever dialogue is seductive.

[@tom4115]

@@cjlooklin1914 Fair enough, I really dislike his character though, so I like to criticize him.

[@danmccalldesign]

Austrians address the problems of money creation through means of fiat. The others cannot come to terms with it so ignore it. Austrians are agnostic on money as a commodity but explain quite eloquently and with reliable predictive success the problems of fiat.

[@777ouivous]

Lex - I appreciate you calling Steve out on his anecdotal statements surrounding climate change. You are the BOSS !!! Love you brother, be safe!

[@monisallam8280]

I think it would be cool to see a debate and discussion mediated by Lex between some of the economists you’ve had on with differing points of view.

[@katiecannon8186]

Terribly difficult unless you get folks who at least agree about the basics of how our monetary system works. At least in my experience about such debates between those who do & those who don’t understand the basics

[@xraceboyex]

@@katiecannon8186 Yeah maybe Lex should just stop having economists who thing counterfeiting money is somehow some kind of virtuous necessity on.

[@jamesclapp2582]

​@@xraceboyexspeaking of people who don't understand the basics....

[@jayrob5270]

Don't worry Lex I remember assets and liabilities being explained to me during a compulsory accounting paper and I didn't understand a word. Told my lecturer at the end of class and he laughed at me and then asked if anyone else didn't understand and nearly everyone raised their hand. I'm sure there is a good way to explain it but this guy much like my lecturer hasn't found it.

[@williambranch4283]

All credits balance with all debits, all assets with all liabilities. There is no net-net. You may think you have more assets than liabilities, but only by forgetting replacement cost!

[@anyariv]

Agree, he confused me even more than before. That's because he's not actually explaining it, he's using his own understanding to describe it, which makes no sense for those who don't actually possess his knowledge. He's not a good teacher.

[@johnnyglinko]

Thanks Lex for interviewing Steve . Simply Brilliant?🙏🏻

[@garctin]

Informative, inspiring, discomforting and comforting at the same time. It gives me some hope that someone like Steve Keen is in the world. This interview warmed my heart! I will definitely seek out more from Steve Keen. My favorite episode yet. Well done and thank you!

[@kevinallister8373]

Id strongly recommend starting with austian economics first. After you do, youll see that this guy is a rube. Only conmen will pretend that being able to print money without consequences is a good thing.

[@jamespeterson3868]

Informed and extremely knowledgeable, agreed. However, his solutions are one sided and biased. His WEF like solution to the problem of our despoiling the environment will fail, but it will likely cause mass famine, increased disease, war and mass migration. Like most intellectuals, they are oblivious to human nature. I suppose if the long term solution is to depopulate the planet and accept short term severe environmental consequences and to create serfs on a planet wide basis ruled over by the anointed and it’s one you applaud, then he’s brilliant.

[@japiro14]

@@kevinallister8373 he never says that printing money doesn't have consquences

[@mutton_man]

​@@kevinallister8373 he didn't say that. You must of misinterpreted what he said.

[@hexinjune362]

Don't listen to Kevin. Only reason to look into Austrian economics is to learn how incorrect it is.

[@ShdwftheSuN]

I have been a fan of Steve Keen's for years, so how am I just now seeing this video??? Anyways THANK YOU, Lex, for bringing his ideas to a much larger audience. I think you were able to rein in his thoughts about as much as humanly possible. There are so few minds who fully grasp Marxist economics in their own context, let alone ours. That is why simplifying this information is so invaluable to the future of leftist economics and the future of a post-capitalist world overall.

[@mkkrupp2462]

So glad that Steve Keen raised the problem of the effects of consumption on the environment and human induced planetary ecocide. Most other economists, including Richard Wolff never mention the environment.

[@CivilWarz]

They're economists not environmentalists

[@davidmyers989]

Going to have to listen to this one at least 12 times. So much deep stuff here

[@smokeyoak]

STOP AUTO PLAYING LEX FRIDMAN KZbin! HOLY

[@michaeldunkley4287]

Wow, already masterful interviewing, this one raises the bar once again. So happy to have run into this podcast, thanks from the heart for what you do and how well you do it! ⭐

[@painfullyunresponsivemabel]

Thank you for these long videos. I can’t get enough of you.

[@mitchellanderson3068]

I clicked because he looks like the High Sparrow from Game of Thrones.

[@tomasfontes3616]

Very nice! Didn't agree with half of what he said but it was somehow healthy to listen until the end, some different and nice perspectives!

[@JDmix123]

That’s how I felt about it

[@johnratfink7343]

Know your enemy. This guy is preaching the same thing that has seen millions dead in the last century.

[@rowleypottery]

Another great one Lex - love the variety in your guests' fields of interest/experience!!

[@mandarine1007]

What an amazing conversation… I am so happy after listening to both of you. Steve is a gifted funny human being. Mind blowing😮

[@J0YSTTIICK]

This guy is so incredibly likable. Some of this was really hard for my head to make sense of but a great conversation.

[@WtfYoutube_YouSuck]

It's because he actually didn't make sense. Odds are, you are not stupid...but trying to understand a socialist, green party economist who failed at teaching and can't even define his own terms in a logical way that Lex can understand means that you are not the problem. Keen is.

[@NoreenHoltzen]

@@WtfKZbin_YouSuck I disagree. I find Keen to be brilliant and has a more realistic understanding of the world than most intellectuals.

[@xyzyzx1253]

@@WtfKZbin_YouSuck obvious troll

[@TheBreezeShoot]

@@xyzyzx1253 He’s not trolling. Keen’s ideas are pretty widely disputed and the general critique of him is that he’s too ideologically driven; ironically that same critique that he makes of the “mainstream economic theories”. Listening to and enjoying Keen as a person and economist is all well and good, but it’s always worth checking what other scholars in his field think of his work.

[@mutton_man]

​@@TheBreezeShoot which ideas are those?

[@nycboogie]

Hey Lex! Next economist: Richard Werner, please! His "Princes of the Yen" is fascinating

[@Dan16673]

Yes. Love that dude

[@bombombecker5222]

Agreed

[@ronhernandez8857]

He's a conspiracy theorist who believes in chemtrails

[@dexio8601]

Steve was my professor at Uni 20 years ago, remember him very well, great talk...

[@Dalamain]

took me a few days to complete this one, but I enjoyed every minute!

[@shahree100]

It’s very impressive how lex kept up with Steve Keen. This was a really tough discussion spanning so much theory and history in one. How does he do it?

[@edgarbenjoseph3879]

Lex is a very smart man. He’s an AI computer engineer and programmer. Teaches at MIT. So he can easily keep up with a deeply intellectual conversation.

[@fvb7]

"Money is a 3-way and we're all getting boned." Keep this one for your history books lads.

[@user-uq5qw1fk3d]

I really enjoyed this conversation. It was fascinating to finally hear a mathematically literate economist (and someone who understands some of the physics behind climate change).

[@conradbr11]

Yeah the physics of anecdotal statements about climate change, Lex called him out on this.

[@ROBERTBROWN090564]

Yeah like ‘some climate forecasts in the past have been wrong so let’s ignore the current scientific consensus’ Genius argument!

[@strigiformsW]

I'm only ten minutes in, but its interesting hearing him talk about the difference equations thing. I'm in my last year of a statistics degree (with a concentration in economics), but just last year I was taking a class titled "Mathematical Economics" which was entirely based on differential equations and setting up Hamiltonians and such (optimal control theory). The interesting thing is that it wasn't a required class for Econ majors, and the class only had 7 of us in the class (mostly Stats majors). The prof would constantly be saying that we are setting Econ majors up for failure with how little math they know because at the graduate level it is essentially all differential equations. At my school the only math they are required to take is intro and inferrential statistics, econometrics I, and an Econ version of calc one. I'm told this is partly because of the Austrian economists, and also a desire to not limit the students going through the program to make the universities more money. The whole thing is very strange, but It is interesting to hear people try and explain it to me.

[@npSylarpp]

Same here, i an econ major and only started to learn differential equations and stability analysis through an obscure class on "dynamic systems economic modelling" as a graduate student that very little people took

[@strigiformsW]

Yeah I dont really get it. I feel like Econ majors should be sitting in Lin algebra, calc, differential equations, and mathematical probability and stuff along with all us Science and Engineering majors so they actually understand what the models are doing...

[@TheItVirusGaming]

Graduated with an economics degree in 2020 and definitely wish more math would’ve been required. Took a class on mathematical economics but it was only required of BS majors and most of the class was Economics/Math double majors.

[@tom4115]

@@strigiformsW More math in economics just means your more precisely wrong.

[@lubricustheslippery5028]

I know more about ecology and ecology got stability analysis with differential equations and stuff like that from economy. So I am surprised economy have forgotten it. You can do some graphical stability analysis and get some intuition about it without having university level math. Solving it analytically is hard and even often to complex to be possible.

[@jeffbo69]

I like Lex. Probably my favorite Podcast to watch.

[@earthlighteleven]

good on you Lex for calling people out gently and honestly - to expand their intelligence and attitude with strongman arguments etc - calling out arrogance and opinionated ideas. Good convo - appreciating your integrity!

[@floridaman3823]

Thank you Lex! Have been following Dr. Keen for a decade. Am so happy to see him on your show! There is so little space for actual economists in the world; ones that observe the real world rather than toy models of the economy. This was one of your best interviews!

[@dennisne]

It sounds like he totally missed the bitcoin train - he doesn't see it as something profound/game-changing? Doesn't that prove that he doesn't know what he's talking about, regarding money or eConOmICs?

[@JscottMays]

@@dennisne Not viewing Bitcoin as profound implies you do not understand econ?

[@dennisne]

@@JscottMays Yes

[@katiecannon8186]

@@dennisne No. It means he *does* understand what money is. Which means understanding that money is a system of laws. Something bitcoiners just can’t wrap their heads around. Nor do they understand why bitcoin has no nominal face value so is priced in dollars, pounds, etc.

[@2-sense]

Thank you so much for coming on the show and now I will be able to follow your social media- I don’t have $ yet - but I am very interested in helping any other way

[@Joecool20147]

A bit odd for someone who sees it as his job to criticize the way people organize themselves, to say that societys don’t really need the freedom to criticize.

[@stevelevitt3814]

He is heavy on regulation from "experts" , light on organization.

[@manpersonreal901]

You need to get Dave Smith to the podcast

[@azoteapost8734]

This is the third time I watch this interview!

[@johndough1264]

Great thoughts I will take them and distribute them equally.

[@MelodyTheArtist]

This was a great interview. Glad to be introduced to Steve Keen.

[@Drippyl0]

This was one of the best guests you’ve had. I think more people should see this and listen to understand. Very dope podcast and if some can listen and open their hearts a bit, this can be quite introspective and learning for a lot.

[@stuckinthemud4352]

I have a few questions about value. What happens to the amount of value available in a system if we consume more value than we create? Next question in a Marxist utopia how does an individual invest his value rather than just consuming it? What specifically can an individual invest the fruits of his labor on?

[@Drippyl0]

@@stuckinthemud4352 that in itself is perpetually up to many variables. I think that depends on someone’s perspective on what “fruit” is to them as not everyone’s “fruit” is something of the material form. It’s much to broad. Also, I don’t think anyone is proposing that under any theory that there would be existent utopia. Ultimately, the whole idea is to work and live rather work to live and escape the fuck of a rat race everyone seems to be in as well as a mass catatonic state of schizophrenia lol

[@dustinheffker3524]

I wasn't ready for this depth of a conversation. I'll have to listen to it a couple more times.

[@xraceboyex]

It's not that deep. Basically just a dude way richer than you arguing that the government counterfeiting money is somehow a "good thing"

[@potatorekt7046]

Ideas you never heard of doesn’t equal to depth, when he praised Chinese government so much and spoke on my behalf that I should be happy, I was dead inside☠️Dude seriously doesn’t know what he is talking about in a deep level, of course the people he sees in China publicly are “happy” because the ones who aren’t wouldn’t be there for whatever reason, like me😅It’s called selective breeding, you can do that with any authoritarian regime without marxism, but at what cost? Most important if nobody is allowed to talk and criticize the policies then who would be the successors of the supposedly “wise” and “genius” policy makers?

[@vhufeosqap]

@@xraceboyex a flippant and purposefully shallow and incorrect summation. Good job.

[@xraceboyex]

@@vhufeosqap It's a meme, chill. Not writing an essay on KZbin. It properly states my opinion on his narrative concisely by generalizing.

[@vincenzodavey6914]

As always great podcast Lex. I am an Aussie living outside Detroit. Steve would be a great bloke to have a couple beers with😎

[@ProfSteveKeen]

I'd down a wine rather than a beer, but if ever I'm in your town, I'll take you up on that.

[@segar004]

I like how Lex takes these intellectual conversations and follows it with questions the common man in this situation would ask to attain enlightenment of a certain topic. Good stuff

[@chuchaichu]

Okay, I just left China 4 years ago. One thing for sure is that food in China is not "way better" than in America, we just don't report the hormones and poisons used in food production. You can immediately make everything a lot better by not testing it and not reporting on death and hospitalization caused by it.

[@whateva1983]

something that also happens in the us.-..

[@Pangora2]

Thanks for reminding me. That part where he's celebrating an old person dancing, because the Chinese system is 'better'...but how many in the countryside get nothing? Their grand engineer society doesn't feel like it is benefiting rural peasants.

[@spider6660]

Do you have any reports of how many people have been hospitalized and died from food poisoning in China? Many tier-1 cities have policies to check food quality, especially after the pandemic, many wet markets have been shut down. A lot has changed in just 4 years since you left. If you don't know anything, it's better to keep quiet.

[@mathieucarrier4217]

Great interview!

[@TwoHighways]

The thing about the central planning types is that they fundamentally don’t understand human nature. Are we a collective or are we individuals? It’s a false dichotomy. How much top down order needs to be imposed versus what would arise unimposed by the fact that as humans we’re part of complex system?

[@yiming624]

They do not use reason. It is a type of pseudo-religious thinking

[@TwoHighways]

Naked libertarianism/pure game theoretic stuff playing out probably isn’t ideal either, particularly as the west goes through the growing pains of Nietzsche’s famous/prophetic proclamation that God is dead, but I can at least respect the Austrians for pointing out that the emperor (our institutions) has no clothes and that the “experts” are actually highly specialized idiots.

[@josef2012]

Great question.

[@Jon-pw2ik]

This "thing" you describe as a problem was formulated and solved and moved on from about a dozen economic schools of thought back a long time ago. It's just an issue to you because you aren't close to the level of thought and understanding of where we are today.

[@TwoHighways]

Please tell me which schools of economics have solved for the free rider problem.