The Downfall of Australian Rugby Union: A Deep Dive with Stephen Hoiles | Straight Talk Podcast

We see all the headlines and outrage regarding Australain Rugby Union, and to be honest, I’m a bit bored with all the media antics. I want to understand the real intricacies of what created this mess.
I sat down with Stephen Hoiles, a former Wallaby, grassroots rugby coach for Randwick, and TV analyst, who knows the current state of rugby inside and out. Drawing from his experience as a player, coach, and fan, Stephen provided an honest and interesting perspective on the numerous problems facing Rugby Union in Australia.
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Head of Production: Jonah Mclachlan
Head of Content: Samuel Morgan
Producer: Dimitri Gremos
Timestamps:
00:00 Promo/ Introduction
00:57 Steve's early life & his early years playing rugby union
05:32 How the game of Rugby Union has changed since the 80s
12:23 The current state of Australian & International Rugby
18:23 What to do about Super Rugby?
25:22 The signing of Joseph Sua'ali'i
27:49 Rugby Talent being signed to Japanese & European rugby clubs
27:35 Free speech & the power of social media company
30:21 Challenges for league & union players when they switch codes
32:48 Has refereeing ruined rugby to watch & complexity with rule changes
38:47 Player safety in union & league
42:12 The future of ARU & will it survive?
44:12 Steve's health & wellness Recoverie Centres
53:01 The benefits of cold/hot therapy
57:44 Modern science, Andrew Huberman & longevity

[@goodboydaz0494]

Putting the game behind a paywall nearly 20 years ago was the first mistake. A lot of people especially ex Rugby players keep talking about how there is not enough talent for 5 teams (now 4 due to Rebels getting cut). They forget that there are over 120 Australians plying their trade in Europe, Japan and America. Theres enough talent for 8 teams. Super Rugby is trash. A domestic comp is what we need but then like I said before theres no money. RA is broke. Cant put it on free tv and cant keep Aussies here in the country.

[@HiMom2024]

Domestic comp isn’t the answer. Need competitive Reds, Waratahs and Brumbies. Force can take a lot more youth approach and get some overseas Aussies back. Make a cup competition with Japanese teams they’re in the same time zones

[@goodboydaz0494]

@@HiMom2024 Why would Japan want to join a competition with us when they have their own? NZRU give us 8mil a year as pity money. Theres no more money in either Super Rugby or a domestic league (what I want) Id just rather that then see us get pumped by NZ clubs 90% of the time.

[@glenmale1748]

Paywall killed the game!

[@stevvvvveperry]

I think we need an 8 team national competition acting as feeder teams for 1 super Rugby Franchise. That way we have a team that can legitimately challenge the kiwi teams week to week and a proper development system that would make a strong national side. In saying that, it would take someone with deep pockets and an actual vision for the game. Something ARU doesn't understand.

[@kylekutasi950]

30 years ago, not 20. we now have an entire generation that has never been exposed to the game.

[@thomasrodwell563]

All I'm hearing is put Waverly, Scots, Cranbrook, etc. matches on TV... How about putting the private schools on the back burner and bring the game to lower socio-economic areas.

[@Konformation07]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Maybe Mr. Hoiles needs to learn the origins of rugby league.

[@ianmondon9441]

Rugby used to be the main game for public schools in Edmondson Zone in South West Sydney. Liverpool, East Hills, Fairfield, Punchbowl, Hurlstone and Birrong, all played Rugby but now that has all gone. Rugby has retreated to the private schools and the talent is not there. And we’d be worse off if not for the large Pacific Island community. This is a failure on the part of the Rugby administration to support rugby in public schools over several decades and will not be fixed in the short term. Where are the likes of the Ella Brothers these days?

[@mikescudder4621]

South Africa have done this and have started to reap the rewards. Rugby was a white private school boy game. However it took the quota system to make this happen.

[@will_274]

Great interview. The die hards of Rugby Union will always be fans. It’s the casual fans that are turning away. Australia is a tough market. Other parts of the world are thriving. Hoiles makes some excellent points. Australian Rugby can be fixed, but it would need some great leadership.

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for listening Will

[@mpwyoung]

Aaaaaaa😊aaaaa

[@mpwyoung]

1aaaaaaaaàaaaaaaqqàa😊

[@Both-Barracuda]

The hardest part about rugby in Australia is there are 2 other oval ball sports it’s competitive with in winter.

[@sliccric2266]

I prefer league these days, but the all blacks v Ireland WC quarter final was one of the best games of footy ive ever seen, across both codes. The end of that game, the Irish put together 40 odd phases of non stop rugby, every phase had 3 or 4 passes, decoy runners, inside ball, cut out passses. The all blacks defence was equally intense. That's equivalent to a team defending 40 tackles straight in league, the difference being in rugby forwards have to follow the ball at all times, they cant do a hit up and have a rest for a minute like in league..not having a go at league, i love it. I just can't understand why rugby isnt more like what we saw in that game, the potential is there if the ref decides he wants to let the game flow.

[@jdb9388]

That's cause both sides have similar styles and like throwing the ball around, they play that free flowing attacking rugby not slowing it down

[@scottnz411]

agree here, a good game of rugby is amazing, especially at international level, but week to week, the NRL is better than super rugby, and international league struggles, I like watching both, but super rugby has major issues,

[@okusfayreno8599]

U have to take into account its played at rucks feet and not 10 metres to be onside

[@PaulOSullivan-iy6kt]

Man. That was game was something else. Easily the best game I have ever seen and I highly recommend people watch the replay if you haven't seen it. It'll blow your mind

[@reubenmartin934]

Im a kiwi and this is the best interview of seen in long time ....NZR are heading in the same direction

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for listening

[@Will.Flavell]

Super Rugby isn’t good anymore don’t bring in big crowds anymore tickets are expensive and South Africa withdrew from the competition this will definitely impact New Zealand Rugby Union as a lot of people prefer to watch NRL these days

[@user-yw8rb4jz5q]

I’m a kiwi and rugby is on a downward spiral from the grass routes down We have two colleges that have combined just to get two teams togeather , the game itself has become so stop start it’s getting unwatchable, I’ve switched to watching the A league which is fantastic both the women’s and men’s teams , and I wish we had Aussie rules over here it’s such a great game Rugby needs to become more free flowing with less stoppages if it’s going to compete. And realistically if you anit got size and bulk don’t bother playing Rugby needs to be

[@reubenmartin934]

@@user-yw8rb4jz5qrugby is dieing because the law makers of the game have created rules where referee's interpretation of the rules are deciding the games instead of the players and the tmo ls definitely ruining the game

[@MovieHeretic]

@@user-yw8rb4jz5q Dude it's like you don't want to watch games stopped, to go back zillion of plays to see if there is an issue before awarding a try. Can't get enough of that, I almost switch over from a league game when that is on offer.

[@carpusbarsum]

He's really knowledgeable and well-spoken and obviously respects both codes of rugby. Good to hear.

[@NiahTunui]

The main downfall and what sowed the seeds for its faliure is the pay to watch model that was choosen for super rugby, this also hurts nz super rugby aswell but the big difference is nz rugby is very strong in the public school system. Despite all the players lost to NRL and Northern hemisphere union, the talent in the nz super teams is still very high. Veiwership for super rugby in nz was also up 15% this year so their is still hope for us but we do need to tread carefully given whats happened to Australian union. Some people say the product is crap and i agree that alot of the games are underwhelming especially for the casual viewer who doesn't understand and therefore appreciate the technical nuances of the game. But if you watch the kiwi super rugby teams play each other, especially on a dry track, its incredibly fast expansive and skillful rugby. The one thing union has over league is the multiple dimensions and aspects within the game which in my opinion makes it far more intriguing and less repetitive than league, but league is more free flowing and simple to understand, its like chess vs checkers. Its not necessarily the game itself but the way its played, nz has always prioritiesed skill development over the power game unlike northern hemisphere rugby. Australian rugby is similar but they arent getting the talent out of the public school system like nz is, thats why the wallabies and aus SR teams struggle. Its also the ARUs neglect of its grassroots that have destroyed its game, instead they choose to give huge money to chase NRL stars instead of funding the development of young talent coming through (short term vs long term thinking).

[@HiMom2024]

Aus rugby is strong in the grassroots and even up to Under 20s. Aus need 2-3 competitive super teams and the Force take on some younger talent. Make a cup competition with Japanese teams

[@okusfayreno8599]

Haha come on be honest all the talent is on league and that's that union cherry picks from private schools... way less talent there I would know I went to one

[@NiahTunui]

@okusfayreno8599 if anything nrl cherry picks from nz union school teams the amount of talent lost is crazy

[@clevelandwilliams5922]

For me Rugby Union & Rugby League essentially are the same with their exception in the ruck, line out & scrummage. League can learn from Union as well as Union from League. A true sports lover appreciates both codes without bashing either.

[@Eighty7AT6]

I was a kid growing up in nz when the larkham/gregan era of Australian rugby was so powerful. Its now sad to see what Australian rugby has become. I hope it becomes competitive again, because I think the southern hemisphere dies if Australia doesnt compete.

[@caintindal1671]

You also got to remember now it is not between six or seven teams to win a world cup any more it is around 12 teams that could win a world cup Outsiders being Japan Fiji Georgia these have improved, Japan is actually doing worse than what we are ever since leaving Super Rugby.

[@Eighty7AT6]

@caintindal1671 so that means Australia is doing good then? What a strange reply. With all due respect, Japan getting to where they have in the last 30 years has been a minor miracle.. And Australia has almost gone the exact opposite direction in the last 30 years.

[@caintindal1671]

@@Eighty7AT6 I agree with you but I also know it not like the past when you only had six that could win it. That I am trying to say hopefully you will see 14 good teams in the future so that means a World cup making the quarters will be good enough and it comes down knockout rugby the better team on the day rather than just a poor effort, Dont get me wrong Eddie Jones did the worse job ever and should have been fired and what he turned the Aussie side into.

[@goodboydaz0494]

@@caintindal1671 Japan isnt doing worst since theyve left lol. Their comp has gotten stronger. More players, more money and more support.

[@caintindal1671]

There competition is going well but their international team has gone down hill mate.

[@demisecphuket]

Couldn't agree more. I love my rugby but the Australian game is so lethargic and boring. Watching Kiwi super teams play other kiwi teams is test match level week in week out. Throw an Aussie derby or an Aussie team into the mix - unwatchable. NRL has got its product in great shape and is damn entertaining.

[@namasi7070]

Aussies saying its boring only because their teams are losing. I'm Fijian and we love 'running rugby' but we win more games now and almost nobody complains. What matters is success on the field.

[@PjRjHj]

Australian Rugby Union has much slicker and wealthier domestic rivals. Compared to Aussie Rues and Rugby League, Union has become unwatchable

[@distortedsoul27]

The differences are that rugby is fighting 3 other football codes. Soccer gets the most junior participation, yet that itself is a niche sport professionally. Australian football (AFL being the professional league and the richest league in the country) is the oldest code of football in the country, with it being in the states of Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, and Western Australia for over 150 years. Northern Territory is also more Australian football than it is Rugby League. It's also gained ground in NSW (the southern half of NSW has been a hotbed for modern AFL recruitment and development) and slowly in Queensland. The AFL is the most attended domestic league per capita in the world, and 4th in average attendance for a domestic league in the world. The likes of the West Coast Eagles and Collingwood are the richest football clubs of any football code in the country. Both of the rugby codes have have been New South Wales and Queensland centric since it began and they've been fighting each other ever since for players, viewers and so on. It's a much more congested market than any country who has rugby as the primary sport.

[@CryptoGypsy-]

The biggest problem with Australian rugby isn't one big problem, but many smaller problems and not enough resources to address those problems. The list of problems is vast, but just a few include grassroots development, 2nd and 3rd tier competition, coaching development, talent scouting, and keeping elite players to other codes. The dysfunctional, central Australian rugby authority is a roadblock for any type of real reform and getting Australian rugby back on track. The states that make up the federal governance body need to come together as one strong unit and stop opposing one another. Ireland is a prime example. Look at their success since doing exactly that. It all starts at the top, and reform and change is critical. As a huge Canterbury Bulldogs fan, we needed the Moore family and Hughes family legacy removed from our club to move forward into the 21st century. It's taken time, but we are finally back on track. The same needs to happen with the ARU.

[@poerava]

Stephen in his prime was one of those back rowers who, with a bit of speed work, could have potentially been a mid fielder. Very strong and quick. Great communicators. Fearless defender. Career cut short way too soon with injuries. A lot of us kiwis really respected Stephen as he threw his body into everything. Would have been wallabies captain if injuries didn’t happen. Cheers Stephen bruddah 🤙🏾 Cheers.

[@keithdevine8281]

I love shute shield but some idiot gave tv rights to ch9 so we are unable to to see it on free to air.Blame ch9 and rugby greed for the demise of rugby .

[@Br0wnCh3]

I think the other issue I have is the game is mostly only played in private schools and clubs. I don’t understand why it was not expanded to include public schools. Also, lack of community engagement. Nobody knows s who you are if you’re not engaging enough with the community. I never knew the qld reds existed until some of the players ran a school session with several school in my community. I was grade 12. That should be happening every year to remind the community they exist. It feels like they’re being arrogant by not engaging with community. This affects the talent pool so only the average players remain. Can’t blame it on other sports when it’s been neglected for so long.

[@tigerwarsaw99]

As a league fan who wants to watch more Union I dont even know where to find it in Australia. Stan sport? Noone has that and noones getting it. There is a reason I know who Horan, Little and Tune are because, way back in the day, I could actually see them play. How about some free to air games on a Sunday evening or Monday night away from the AFL and League?

[@Waywind420]

Rugby has lost the war for the Australian public, and there's not going to be any comeback. AFL is a less dangerous sport so parents will actually push their kids to play that instead. NRL is a much more sensical code of rugby, less arbitrary referee interpretations, more flow, more sustainable squad sizes, better scoring system, less intrusive judiciary process. Both those sports also pay far more to their athletes and have far better media coverage. Outside of a miracle, union will fade away into a semi-professional state within 5-10 years, that's my guess...maybe it's for the best. It's a fun game to watch, but it's absolutely stupid to play

[@PjRjHj]

I played Union, League and Aussie Rules growing up. I've never hurt more than some hits in Aussie Rules because of its 360 degree nature. It is just as dangerous as the 2 Rugbys, just in slightly different ways.

[@Waywind420]

@@PjRjHj AFL is a tough sport no doubt, with comparable levels of soft tissue injuries to rugby, but rugby is the absolute king of concussions. Even American football, which has more violent collisions, doesn't have the same rate of concussions that rugby has. I've read a paper on this before and from memory I believe Aussie Rules was 3 times less likely to result in a concussion when compared to union/ league. But AFL was also significantly higher than other sports like soccer/ basketball. Collisions are a staple of rugby, it's pretty much going to happen on every tackle. I'm not sure it's quite like that for AFL.

[@distortedsoul27]

It depends on the collision in Australian footy. Protecting the head when someone's trying to pick the ball up was a much needed install. However, it being a 360° sport, as well as the likes of marking contests that can involve jumping into packs can still cause significant injury; especially when someone does something similar to Jonathan Brown and Nick Riewoldt running into the pack from the opposite direction.

[@flyingllama2315]

Awesome interview. It is a cocktail of reasons for the fall of Aussie Union. Here are some more to add to the list: Israel Folau - They treated him poorly for having freedom of religion. That put off a few religious people. Raelene Castle - She came in with a woke agenda which the game didn’t need and that put people off too.

[@NiahTunui]

The seeds were sowen for the downfall long before but I agree those were more nails in the coffin

[@24hr_rugby_jake]

Israel folau 😂😂 got banned for being a homophobe mate. And rightly so never played again

[@flyingllama2315]

@@24hr_rugby_jake Not sure what you mean by no phone but whatever moral side you take doesn't matter. Point is he was banned and a lot of pacific Island Australians and religious fans were put off by his banning. Right or wrong, banning him added to the downward spiral of Australian Rugby making the avalanche bigger. Plus he was a decent Wallabie Player, albiet a jerk, and last time I checked the Wallabies need all the help they can get.

[@goodboydaz0494]

@@flyingllama2315 It was dying before that bro. Although it didnt help they treated the Folau case.

[@flyingllama2315]

@@goodboydaz0494 Totally agree bro. There are a lot of things Australian rugby could have done better. Folau was just another nail in a big coffin.

[@primexconnectsalestechnolo8443]

Great interview. I hope Administrators are listening to voices such as Stephen Hoiles and Morgan Turinui. These are young thought leaders with ideas to improve the state of the game.

[@Burbs1976]

Any sport in Australia only survives if it’s on multiple platforms which includes free to air tv. It also helps if people know the rules. I’m pretty sure rugby players don’t know all the rules.

[@poerava]

Totally agree. If every super rugby and wallabies was put on free to air, including club and high school rugby, support will organically grow. Very quickly.

[@7eVen.si62]

Why should it be free?

[@kaibrand]

Great interview with some mind opening takes from Stephen. There’s so much potential in Rugby Australia, really loved his take on club rugby and it’s the heart of the culture.

[@samsquared3122]

Great Insight from Steve 🇦🇺

[@petercasaceli2535]

Great interview Mark - So refreshing to hear Steve speak about Australian Rugby and the possible pathway forward.

[@goodboydaz0494]

The reason why League is so popular her in Australia is because its so basic. I dont mean that in a bad way too. Its very easy to understand and pretty straightforward. You could have some guy who has never watched the game understand it by the end of the game. 5 opportunities to do something before you have to kick.

[@MarkBourisYT]

true

[@user-rk1ei1jj8u]

Well said, easy to understand. Simple

[@B-tr9kz]

That's why games like Basketball and Soccer thrive. Its easy to play and easy to watch.

[@carpusbarsum]

It is simpler but how do you explain that most of the defensive structure and attacking shape in Union comes from rugby league?

[@user-vz1fv9rn4y]

@@carpusbarsumbecause the fields the same the balls the same the players are similar the offside rules similar. Played both and the biggest thing league taught me was the one on one defense and tackle. Rugby taught me that good ruck and mauls can stack who is in that defensive line and where they are. Rugby has room for all shapes and sizes if you’re not big enough or fast enough no room for you in league. But then no room in jerseys 1 to 5 in top level 😂rugby for a league player either. Brad thorn being the exception but then there’s always a few. Love both games

[@craigcusack1751]

Enjoy both parts of the chat. As a long suffering fan and former player of both codes I'm with S.H. I further hold the same views as you guys around wellness. I swim in the ocean most days and I, as do my friends, don't get sick. No wetsuit all year around. It's invigorating.

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for tuning in Craig

[@emmanuelardron]

Great interview! Unfortunately SuperRugby is a bit of a non-entity in Australia now. Born and raised in Canberra, I relocated to regional Victoria in 2022. They ask you, "do you follow the footy?" "I don't like AFL, I like rugby" I say to them. Then they reply, "Oh yeah, which team? The Storm?" I don't say anything in reply but I think to myself, "they don't even know the difference between union and league down here." But this is the case for many parts of the country, even along the eastern seaboard.

[@falconmclenny7284]

We do, but we care about both rugbys so little

[@riposter69]

Generally hate RU and its self regarding elitism. Hoiles is one of the few rugby heads who can see how the ARU can get out of the doldrums bu fruitfully coexisting with league and actually supporting each other. The reality is the game would be so much more appealing if it stopped sanctifying the scrums and the referees and treated them as just one aspect of the game.

[@youtubeenthussiast328]

Moved on to league myself. Just a better watch. Its rugby without all the boring shit

[@24hr_rugby_jake]

Just say you don’t understand rugby lad

[@carpusbarsum]

@@24hr_rugby_jake The dynamics of both codes are similar. Get over the gain line, kick with purpose, tackle well - have some creativity in midfield.

[@davidhicks9876]

Does a game need to be simple to be popular? NFL, Cricket?

[@confederacioncentroamerica1991]

Everyone understands it. It's just not fun to watch.

[@24hr_rugby_jake]

@@confederacioncentroamerica1991 again, 10x more popular than league lad 😂

[@michaeldruitt9071]

Interesting discussion. I would love to hear the @kickoffsandkickons boys comment on Hoilsies perspective. A good 'Whats Drewing' segment?

[@CommissionerManu]

0:48 I dunno, having played both codes, I’ve seen a lot of disrespect towards League from Union fans. Tons of elitism as well, then they turn around and wonder why the average person doesn’t care for their sport…

[@jake567100]

Yeah you see this often in rugby union forums. The idea that league fans unfairly hate rugby whilst union fans are respectful of league. It’s complete BS and it just makes Union fans seem even more insufferable. It annoys me as someone who is a fan of rugby

[@7eVen.si62]

The L in LGBTQ stands for League

[@CommissionerManu]

@@7eVen.si62 thank you for proving my point. Try not to graze your knuckles on the concrete on the way out

[@PjRjHj]

It certainly goes both ways, yet League is the victim?

[@Narapoia1]

@@CommissionerManu Come on, I get what you are saying. But that was pretty funny.

[@odysseydesignandmarketing8091]

Great interview Mark. While mismanagement over the last 20+ years has had a massive negative effect on rugby here in Australia. In my opinion the biggest threat to union is the fact the NRL and AFL are domestic competitions and a law unto themselves. They are NOT credible international games with an international body that administers or sets the rules for it. Therefore the AFL and NRL simply set policies and game framework with the sole focus of generating revenue first, and the purity of the game and purity of the competition are a very distant second. If they are even considerations at all. Some clear examples of this is the recent secretive drug program batted off by the AFL, the fact Collingwood rarely travels outside Melbourne or the fact not all teams play everyone every year. All geared towards maximising revenue, I am not sure how Rugby union can compete with that. Cheers Dylan

[@user-bi8wp6wy3l]

There lies your problem supporters who watch NRL and ARL in this country couldnt give a rats how international or "pure" the game is they just want to be entertained ? The rules have been evolving to improve tleague as a spectacle since lthe codes split over 100 years ago. At the end of the day the ARU are trying to sell a game that is not as good to watch as either the NRL or ARL. The best gauge of the different codes in Australia is how much the media companies are willing to pay for the broadcasting rights. 20 years ago I would reguarly drive 160kms down to Sydney to watch the Wallabies or Super League games these days I wouldnt cross the road to watch either of them.

[@SilkySkillsUnited]

They run a domestic competition. The AFL has 11 Melbourne teams and the NRL has 9 Sydney teams. They built those foundations themselves, why wouldn't they be the ones to govern them? Is the NBA beholden to anyone other than themselves? Do they have to answer to some pretentious foreign body on how to play basketball? Union needs to get over itself. Too much bureaucracy.

[@user-rk1ei1jj8u]

Super rugby was popular when its started on both C7 & Fox. Its demise in interest followed subsequent changes to viewing

[@markbeechey8901]

Great show. Great insight to the beautiful game in Australia. Gained a subscriber

[@MarkKoubaridis-wh2cw]

Very informative indeed 👏

[@stewiegriffin2846]

This is definitely a good watch. Some thought-provoking topics and conversations. I work in rugby at amateur and professional levels. My personal belief is that super rugby was a mistake from the very start. We should have formed a national professional competition, not an international professional competition. E.g. think NRC but fully professional. 2 teams from QLD, 3 teams from NSW, 1 team from ACT. But not elevation of clubs. There could have been 3 weeks where we had a competition bye where they would pick a QLD and NSW team to play each other aka rugby union state of origin. If you didn't get picked, you would go back to state premier grade for a week. Then they could have slowly added 1 team from WA, and then slowly added 1 team from VIC, and then slowly added 1 team from the Pacific. Then added a second game to the comp bye, all stars v Pacific all stars. Eventually, all of these teams could have had a semi professional reserve grade and u21s (or u20s, doesn't matter to much). If you weren't good enough to make those sides you would play on state premier grade competitions. Sadly due to a lot of filling back pockets and looking after mates instead of what's best for the game we will never be able to get back to a super strong level. Unless we get a huge cash injection (Saudi money). Just my thoughts... adding my 2 cents

[@samhutchinson1749]

It's a product issue I grew up playing rugby and both my sons play Sport Is entertainment. You compete against everything- EPL/NBA/AFL etc My boys watch NRL/AFL and have been playing rugby for 6 years We have NEVER watched a game of Super Rugby As a product, rugby is simply unwatchable. Its horrendous

[@24hr_rugby_jake]

That opinion is horrendous 😂😂 Never gonna understating if you don’t fuking watch it are you 😂 watch top 14 or premiership (the french and English comps). You’ll get it then

[@Narapoia1]

Yet it has a far, far larger global audience than NRL or AFL. Yes it competes with other codes, it's only in Aus that it seems to be struggling to the extent it is with viewers.

[@pezzintheshed]

Cannot underestimate the damage created by Raylene Castle's tenure 🤦

[@RenegadeRanga]

Agreed, she was almost like kiwi trojan horse to destroy the game.

[@matbrooks7678]

Gave Izzy his money ! Lol

[@sbutler66]

The interview I didn't know I needed, a super interesting listen! As an outsider looking in, the sports landscape and hierarchy in Australia always baffles me. How Union is behind League, AFL, Cricket is always a shock. Get the right people leading i'm sure many of the issues mentioned can be sorted

[@PjRjHj]

Union has been a well supported niche sport in Australia for over 100 years (once it lost dominance to League in Sydney and Brisbane). like it or Loathe it, Union just doesn't have the width and depth of importance within the Australian cultural fabric as Australian Football, Rugby League, and Cricket

[@taneranathan]

The best take on Rugby Union in Australia I’ve heard. Awesome work lads.

[@jono4020]

Really enjoyed this chat, a number of great points (about both Rugby and health benefits of cold plunging). One thing I've really started to get frustrated about with rugby is the way some teams are now exploiting the laws to get penalties. A couple of examples would be trying to deliberately cause the scrum to collapse in the opposition half. It's often a 50/50 call from the ref, but if it goes your way you get a penalty and 3 points. Another example is getting an opposition player sent off by ducking into a tackle so it ends up above the ahoulder (or now sternum). It's the rugby equivalent of diving in football in the penalty box. If the penalty for a scrum collapsing was changed to a short arm penalty, it would go back to being a proper contest as originally intended as there wouldn't be the same incentive to collapse it.

[@timwilliams1335]

Well spoken Hollies. I watch a lot podcast. This is the first time I’ve watched this channel. But this was a hugely unprepared episode by the host. At least have enough respect for your guest to some research on the topic. Hollies legend, host average!

[@mickmccauley8500]

Great interview. I've always believed that Super rugby was the problem. Thinking back to how it was before Super. We used to play Club comp then State comp then Wallabies tour, in that order. As a kid you could go to your local Club match and see a Wallaby play. Then maybe some of your Club players get selected for State, and from there they may even get into the Wallabies. It keeps the Club communities interested all the way through which helps develop kids who are interested in rugby. Lose the kids and rugby is finished. Also, I don't understand the logic in why we want to train the NZ team to beat us by playing us every week in Super rugby. We should play them at the end of the season after our State comp. Just like it used to be when we were successful

[@troycrittle9809]

We live in Tamworth, my 16 year old son is 185cm, 92kg and keen as mustard to play. Can’t get a game, as the 16’s has folded. It’s not about the club, it’s about the kids.

[@falconmclenny7284]

Had a mate in warwick tell me someone robbed one of the rugby clubs and they had to shut down for the season. Dunno if it was league or union but either way, terrible for the community.

[@julianalderson3938]

Great questions mark. But it aint done yet

[@johngamba4823]

Wonderfully honest!

[@Gamb11t]

Great interview

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for listening mate

[@sunshinecoastdetailing1822]

What a fantastic insight into what’s happening in RU! Thanks guys

[@Furnerfamilyadventures]

I like the idea of schools on Friday, Local Club on Saturday and Thursday, Sunday and Monday everything else.

[@MarkBourisYT]

I agree. America has some problems but they have nailed sports

[@Maxindifference]

I played premier rugby in Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane and NZ in the 80s and 90s. The club rugby scene was the best form of rugby with big crowds. The game sold out to corporate interests and turned its back on the grassroots rugby. It’s a dead game and for good reason and I haven’t watched a single minute of rugby in 35 years. Let it die and watch something worth watching.

[@addepartment]

Hey Mark talk about the impact of short term accommodation rentals ie Airbnb vs. the long term rental market and there implication since its inception.

[@michaelcooney7687]

Awesome chat..

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for listening mate

[@pcoppleman]

You see how the AFL has modeled their structure on gridiron thus their success not forgetting about grass roots. RA has focused on the Wallabies so much or on the fruit , the vine has withered due to lack of care.

[@chalkandcheese1868]

Nobody addresses the real problem, and it's always been the problem, Rugby Union in Australia is a very minor sport, they have to rely on foreigners to make up a team because the talent cupboard is completely bare.

[@troncarter6834]

Raylene was the beginning of the end. We were good pre 2015 its just All Blacks were god tier level. We sacked our last REAL superstar in Israel Folau.. The lack of star power is a huge problem. The best athletes are fleeing to the NRL bcos it is the more attractive & entertaining game. Im a 90s kid and my dream was to play for the Wallabies.. Today kids dont even know the Wallabies let alone the Super rugby teams. Rugby AUS peaked and our best days are behind us

[@PjRjHj]

2015 was an anomaly, with a short lived honeymoon period for Cheka. The Wallabies were average in the years before that, and resorted to form of a a slow decline in 2016

[@King_David794]

The rules are too complicated and are heavily officiated. Too much kicking . Too much stoppage. And it's boring

[@Moananu]

Israel Folau was right about the rugby Australia heading in this direction if they didn't change... and now Rugby Australia is slowly deteorating 💯

[@MW73107]

What did Folau say?

[@thestinkydwarf]

explanation of the rules is an issue - one thing I enjoyed about watching the Japanese broadcast of the 2019 world cup was the way they explained the reason for penalties, not a Japanese speaker but the visuals explained the penalty without the need to read anything...

[@floodwaters8887]

8 side Australian comp, no need for Super Rugby participation

[@_peepyopee]

Existing super rugby clubs + 3 Super Rugby can still work. As a champions league of the Asia pacific. Top 4 from AU, NZ and JP qualify Super Rugby can run parallel to the domestic competitions. Best of both worlds. Increase in revenue from the Japanese participation

[@PjRjHj]

As mentioned in the interview. They have tried more than once, but the Sydney and Brisbane teams get no traction because the grassroots base it too invested in their local competition clubs which is completely understandable. Soccer in Australia has had similar issues between engaging fans while opting for A-League franchises over strong NSL legacy clubs tied to ethnic identities like South Melbourne, Marconi, or Sydney United 58

[@thecrankster]

Fantastic interview. Club brands are the heart of sport. You can’t create heritage. The Randwick brand is so strong. So many other brands could be massively bigger. They have never tried to invest properly in the club as the premier division of Australian rugby

[@scottnz411]

for someone that doesn't know, was this rugby televised before super rugby came about, as super rugby and its academies have really hurt NPC rugby in NZ, which was strong before the professional era,

[@thecrankster]

@@scottnz411 In Australia, generally it wasn’t. You might have seen a few games on the ABC. Pretty poorly broadcasted, no disrespect. No marketing, no effort to build public knowledge. It filled a hole in the Sydney market but was never exploited and AFL walked in and took it.

[@blairansellfraser]

The ARU is the biggest problem. The are stuck in the private school, upper class identity of Union in Australia. The ARU has given up uon pitching Union to Australia as a sport for everyone, as League and AFL has done and is content on just spending money on management and toip tier players. That mind set was always going to end with a small player pool and minimal fan loyalty.

[@sunshinecoastdetailing1822]

Rugby needs to embrace what makes it different which is the scrum and big blokes smashing into people, not make excuses for it, dumb it down and appease soccer mums.

[@poinky8]

Well CTE is killing all contact sports, Rugby is the first to go.

[@PjRjHj]

The gamesmanship surrounding Scrums and the resulting time wasting is one of the biggest reasons Aussie have turned off Rugby as a spectacle. Only purists who were forwards come close to enjoying that cynical rubbish. Its broadcasting kryptonite

[@keithonlife]

Autraliabn context doesnt fit global contect. Great iterview with Hoiles

[@MarkBourisYT]

Yep 👍

[@tonymitchell1461]

Insightful big picture look at Aussie rugby today. Thank you

[@PowzaKa]

I was a die hard that has turned away, I have been alienated at every turn by an admin that hasn't made any attempts to engage with me as a fan and has lurched from disaster to disaster. The game is completely unpalatable on every level, from pedantic calls that completely ruin games to a culture of complete underperformance at the highest level and a lack of engagement at club level. Example over the weekend Ardi Savea played club rugby with his local team, then spent some time with them, I have seen little to no effort from the wallabies to do the same. Not to mention politics at the state level. How can you form tribalism around a team called the QLD reds if you live in Cairns and never get to see the team? Not to mention the bazaar pig headedness to force the force out of SR in place of the Rebels, who are now defunded and not taking a hand out from Twiggy Forrest when it was offered. No free to air TV for decades until last year to add. Name me a worse run organisation in the country and I will raise you the ARU.

[@jasonjudkins2056]

Totally agree, I live in Cairns as well and we have only had pre-session Super Rugby games, last one was the Reds beating the Crusaders. In Cairns it's difficult to even find a team for my son to play in, ARU force you to use their app and it tells you they're not looking. Back in my day you rocked up to the open day or even just rock up to a practice and sign up.

[@nealcoyte]

Rugby world wide is NOT losing followers; it's gaining. It is losing followers in Australia and this is largely because Australian Rugby shot itself in the foot. Invest in grass roots and club rugby (especially western suburbs where RA hasn't ventured), and rugby in Australia, may, I repeat, may, survive.

[@timulcoq]

The sport as it is currently configured is thriving in other parts of the world. RA has just butchered the marketing and organization of the sport in Oz. When Hoilesie is moaning about the scrum he’s just adding to the problem. The scrum is a marvelous part of the game. It is 16 athletes, six of whom are some of the biggest and strongest athletes on the planet, using perfect technique and team work to compete for the ball in a structure that does not exist in any other athletic endeavor. Fans the world over love the scrum, go watch the Bokkes, or go watch any of the three professional leagues in France and you’ll see packed venues of fans who are knowledgeable about the scrum and are hyped up to see their piggies do battle. But turn on any Australian broadcast or commentary after the fact and you’ll hear all kinds of moaning about it. And what are they ultimately telling the casual Australian rugby viewer? “This sport sucks, go watch league where they don’t have scrums” If RA and the Australian rugby commentariat changed their tune about the scrum, and we put some effort into developing front rowers, we could turn this game around in Oz. (And if you’re one of those folks involved in grassroots rugby, start sending the coaches from the brisbane and Sydney private schools to Georgia to offer boarding school scholarships to all their under 16 props. We could have our scrum problems solved in a decade).

[@PjRjHj]

Scrums are fine, deliberately wasting minutes doing it as a cynical tactic is poison to the spectacle and broadcasters

[@RenegadeRanga]

Nah, his observation is good. Old scrums use to set up and go hard for the ball in a short time. Now they take minutes for 1 fucking scrum. I love the scrum. But it's bullshit how long it takes to get one going these days.

[@aup10]

I generally followed both AFL and NRL through my adult life. I also used to make an effort to watch Rugby test matches, but not for about 10 years now. I can still watch rugby today, but only if nothing else is on. But I just don't enjoy watching rugby these days. It probably a combination of reasons. Firstly, Australia hasn't been competitive for many years. It doesn't matter if they win or lose, but they have to be in the contest. Secondly, the game has just lost it zing. Perhaps I just prefer watching the NRL format, as these games produce more exciting line breaks and tries. Sadly, if there is no change, I can see rugby slowly dying away in Australia. My suggestion would be to move the defensive line behind the ruck back by 5 metres. This may enable attacking teams to make plays to break the defense line and score tries.

[@jacksonwirepa2301]

Set plays and line breaks still happen all the time in rugby. It's not as frequent as league tho because in rugby you have to find ways to make that space yourself as a team. In league you're given that space which I think takes away from the game so I'm gonna disagree with your 5 Metre statement

[@robb5642]

I could fix Rugby Union in Australia. Phil Waugh cannot.

[@andrewgordon6179]

Played rugby , lost interest 10yrs ago got sick of tahs loosing, wallabies could tackle kick or win a wet cold

[@rockandmeatroll]

Seems league is the prefered code in Aus.Dont think 6 nations or world cup rugby is boring on the othe side of the world

[@robertryan7204]

Understatement League dominates

[@user-rk1ei1jj8u]

When the Wallabies were real strong in the 80's most school leavers went and played Colts for at least a year before going into grade. Now kids go straight into grade but havent had time to develop physically and mentally but the expectation doesnt take this into account.

[@lozcapaldi4248]

Great Interview, in NZ if your in the Regions & not in the main Cities, you just dont care about Super Rugby.. there's many North Sydney Bears type scenario's here.. & NPC is a Reserve Grade thing while the All Blacks Season begins.. I actually think the game itself is fine

[@scottnz411]

its a bit different, as Super Rugby does not overlap NPC here,

[@mrgray3608]

Interesting that the top six teams in Shute Shield are either north shore/beaches or eastern Sydney ie. the heartlands of Private Schools demographics?

[@benireland1948]

Makes a lot of great points - Hoiles very impressive

[@okusfayreno8599]

Hey Mark, I think rugby should be 14 a side, not 15 ? This one thing will re open the whole field ,I've played both Union and League some games of rugby, and I would be literally cold in the centres due to lack of flow in the game

[@distortedsoul27]

I've always said that one of the worst things the ARU did was not capitalise on the success of the Wallabies in the 90's. They have to try and expand and promote the sport. There's sooo many juniors playing in my local club, and I'd argue that it has more participation of the sport as a whole than League in the state.

[@jasonmcgaffin6249]

Im All Black fan my whole life the game is absolutely awful to watch now.The way the are rules are officiated is killing the game weekend warriors watching games in Europe isnt going to change that

[@joelhungerford8388]

Im a league man first, but enjoy both rugby codes. I would love to see rugby in Australia get its mojo back

[@HiMom2024]

Super Rugby only appears stale because of the stench teams have put out there. It can be saved and I for one think Aus are turning their heads in the right direction.

[@maxhart7907]

The short answer is - it's been mismanaged for the greater part of 25 years. Rugby Australia thought they had it made back in the early 2000s and did nothing. Everyone knows do nothing, get nothing. They basically sat there in the boardroom and let NRL take the cake... All that money that the NRL gets... a good chunk of it could have been RA's. Can it be brought back? It would have to take some radical moves... especially in securing some of the best athletes and eating some humble pie in terms of how the game is administered. Both are tall orders. Especially that second part. The question has to be asked is 25 years enough spiraling and pain?

[@PjRjHj]

They didn't do nothing, they expanded, gambling one too many times with the creation of the Melbourne Rebels to satisfy big egos. It didn't help on field that the All Blacks had put together the greatest era of all time. Wins, any wings against the All Blacks is essential to keep wider Australia watching. Instead they either got annihilated or too many close ones because Australia refused to improve their kicking game

[@nnoddy8161]

Great discussion. Firstly, the governance of rugby is buggered. How the decisions are made is simply terrible and not really representative of every level of the game (juniors, schools, club, rep and national). The turning point of rugby was when rucking was banned. In the old days, as soon as you hit the ground you had to release the ball. Today the ball is placed back and the defending team struggles to get the ball, because they cannot ruck. This then leads to a high number of uncontested rucks, whereby the defensive team has a wall defence - not 10m back as in league - but the last 'feet' of the ruck. This has fundamentally changed the game. With uncontested rucks and a set defensive line (at the last feet) this is akin to rugby league in the '60s of the unlimited tackles and a 5m defensive line, but with 15 players instead of 13. We can thank the 'Mums' killing off rucking. No one ever died from rucking, but we now have serious concussions from reaching over the ruck and running into set defensive walls.

[@MarkBourisYT]

Thanks for listening

[@Sabundy]

As a South African I miss the epic games between the Boks and a top tier Wallabies team.

[@MarkBourisYT]

Agreed

[@cliveflanagan9014]

Funny how they never mention the Israel Folau saga, Australian rugby has never recovered from that farce. We loved watching Australia play and being in the top section of teams to then see them just disintegrate to one of the bottom teams. We never watch Australian rugby any more where as we always watched the big games. Similar experience to manly Rugby League team when they went for the pride game with uniforms I don’t think they won a game again that year and went from the top four teams. I think it was to the bottom. We just want to watch sport not political statements.

[@PjRjHj]

I'll never forget the contrasting treatment of the Manly players and the West Coast Eagles (who didn't make a Pride jersey for their women's team because there was no memo and they were focusing on an indigenous jersey) compared to the sob story and love bombing of the GWS Giants women's team player who stood down for the pride jersey game because of her Muslim faith. She rightfully exercised her rights and stood by her convictions. Yet the media and social media treated the former two like lepers

[@billmoore8090]

You isolated yourselves during COVID lockdowns, and the AFL is kicking ass. Also, good points about the time wasting. The TMO and obsession with checking everything is causing issues at all levels. The rugby fan is simply frustrated with the product. Why travel and pay good money to watch a ref try to control everything. US Football (NFL and College) doesn't have to compete with anything else. Rugby competes with League and AFL.

[@paulneal102]

One of the reason Leaguies have a distain for Union is the Superior Holy than thou attitude. comments like League is like checkers whereas Union is like Chess. Tell me what's so intellectual about box kicking and fat blokes waddling to a scrum . Yes I know it's the global game blah blah. WC finals are always decided by penalty's. How many tries have SA scored in there WC victories. Stephens comments were measured and insightful unlike many of the scarf wearing tossers in the hierarchy .

[@PjRjHj]

I never interpreted that analogy as intellectual posturing from Rugby Union. I always saw it as a neutral analogy to describe the differences in the laws of the two codes, not an attack of ones intelligence. Rugby Union's laws ARE more complex than Leagues, so much so, they are byzantine. It was even discussed in the interview, where too often nobody but the referee knows what foul has been committed. Rugby League evolved away from Union as they were reliant on the gate sales. The Laws were streamlined, changed, players numbers dropped to 13, the much earlier influence of shaping the product for TV etc. Like Checkers, Rugby League is a Simpler game, That does not at all suggest League is an Easier game. Just like the beauty of Soccer is its simplicity, while it's obscenely difficult to reach the level needed to play in a top tier league or for your nation

[@blakedickenson2394]

Couldn’t agree more mate. All the people I know that talk about this issue ( Aussie Rugby Dying ) are some of the most stuck up pricks I know. Basically every Union fan I’ve met carry on about it being “bogan” and only “unintelligent” people follow it. In Australia, if you act like a stuck up cu*t, people turn off you very quickly, it’s just the culture here. And I have no doubt that Union and its fanbases ( holy than thou ) attitude has contributed to its demise here in Oz.

[@emersonmcleod07]

The average rugby score is way higher than league. But the difference is the boring stuff in-between. The only thing rugby has over league is the finish in a close game . Can go for a few minutes. You're on the edge of your seat.

[@ozrugbynut1729]

Aus rugby has a winning problem. Everything else is noise. Great interview but there are some fundamental issues not discussed. One is structural - the state/member system is like herding cats and commercially not cohesive to help attract big corporate dollars. Another is the Giteau law. Pick best possible 23 to win, win and we get eyeballs again.

[@paulywalnutz5855]

34:00 nah its not too technical. its the fact that theres a penalty every 3 minutes and nobody really know what the penalties for. So the main player in every rugby game is the ref and hes whislte. And most games are like 15-6 scorelines with one try scoredthe rest penalties. Horrid

[@paulywalnutz5855]

rugby is just a tough carry to watch. leagues miles better. get rid of super rugby and go al in on a club comp and change rules to encourage attacking footy

[@karljuhnke8882]

Union has always been about slagging off league players and supporters regarding their intelligence. The British class thing lived on in Australian Rugby Union and in an egalitarian nation that just doesn't float. Too much pretence. Enjoyed the interview. Was my first.

[@rugbybricks]

Magic chat.

[@drewbus8680]

The over policing of head knocks has killed the game for me. Should copy how the NRL police it far better.

[@zac5855]

In my opinion, it was putting the game behind a paywall. The same thing is happening to cricket now. That killed a lot of interest which killed a lot of the revenue, which started the spiraling the game is in now

[@urkput]

Most frontrowers are 6'1-6'2......

[@olympicjbrag5913]

Australia's teamwork index (TWI) dropped....which is i think the crux of the matter. In the Super Rugby competition, Australia only had 2 teams. The ACT Brumbies were added along with the Waratahs and the Reds, which made up the core of Australian international rugby which gave you a Golden Era with WC wins and Bledisloe Cup for 5 consecutive years. Back then , Australias TWI was in the mid 90%s. Then around 2006 the Western Force joined, and 2011 the Rebels...and BANG....all the built up cohesion was lost due to watering down your pool of players and sending them all over the place to try and strengthen other franchises. Herein lies the problem. With the addition of every new provincial team, your TWI dropped and over the last decade or so its has gone down to the 50%. Australia went from a small, professional player base with more cohesion to a rugby model that has seen you drop out of the top 10.

[@jdb9388]

As a Kiwi my heart goes out to our ANZAC brethren, Can't really enjoy success until we see Aus back on top

[@flaminjamin]

We’ve moved on to better sports. NRL and AFL are more entertaining

[@jacksonwirepa2301]

​@@flaminjaminno one watches those outside of Australia

[@charlottewalsh1030]

State of Origin ,game 2 NSW Schools Rugby Murray,Chrighton, Watson,Sualii etc? QLD Schools Hamiso, Taulagi,Gagai,Ponga, Sua,Nanai etc? Have a good look at every NRL, rugby juniors, especially NZ and Islander ! Kraven week in South Africa, Eggchasers rugby! No mention of Super Rugby clubs! If the NRL agents go there ! There’ll be a few Saffas in 10 years! Also, Massive law suit against UK Rugby a few years back, might have something to do with law changes!

[@josiah8351]

Simple solution - wallabies need to win games consistently

[@user-gh2jy7yd4w]

It all went south when the ARU spent their time and money going after Israel Folau on some virtual signalling quest.

[@lord7th207]

It’s the rules from World Rugby that are killing the game, I’m a kiwi and even I don’t watch it anymore

[@jonathonmerson93]

Is this an add for Ice baths?