How Games Get Balanced

[@FenderJReid]

There was a point where mercy was so powerful and she was played in practically every game. On both teams. So her win rate was 50%. So her win stat was misleading

[@garyravinsky3357]

The ole 5 man rez

[@wittywarbler1117]

In this case it was her pick rate that showed how strong she was. He mentioned it in the video.

[@imerence6290]

So balanced ?

[@Itama22]

When Mercy is in 100% of all teams facing each other, there is no other choice of her winrate being 50% since there is always one winning and one loosing mercy ;)

[@prayforjoe6961]

Like currently jäger in r6 with ca. 90% pickrate -> 50% winrate

[@Evitrea]

Fun story time: CS:GO has a gun called AUG that cost 3300, but everyone prefers M4, which cost 3100. Last year, Valve patched AUG's price to 3150, and after the top Pro team like Astralis starting to use it, it became the meta of the game. Nearly no one uses M4 at the time, despite it being the iconic CT weapon in counter-strike for 20 years. So this year, Valve made a new patch says "Now everyone has been given a chance to know and love the gun," the price is 3300 again. But, still many player consider it to be "too op" that it breaks the game, should be nerf even more. The best part is, the gun itself never changes. It's the same gun since 2014, and suddenly it's a problem now. So, you're right. Sometimes it's not the game, it's the player.

[@duck74UK]

Same thing happened in another Valve game, TF2. There is a gun in that game called "The Ambassador", and until Valve mentioned a potential nerf to it, nobody complained about it, the gun had been in the game since 2009, the nerf was suggested in 2016. After the nerf was suggested, suddenly everyone had a problem with the gun, and would complain whenever they died to it.

[@patrickbastos1267]

It took less than the price of a flashbang for people to realize the potential of the AUG. Everyone called it the "shitty bot weapon". Now my friends die to it and imediatelly start complaining.

[@TheMikirog]

I remember the AUG being a strictly "COD weapon" or "noob weapon" or "I pick that because I want to be contrarian or a hipster gun". This nerf was clever, because it encouraged people to give the weapon a go.

[@PapaLuigi3000]

A similar thing happened in competitive pokemon. Dugtrio has had the ability "arena trap" ever since abilities were first introduced back in generation 3. It's an ability that prevents your opponent from switching out their pokemon, thus forcing them to stay in. This basically breaks a major strategic element of the game since switching out is how you would normally keep your pokemon alive when your opponent sends in something it can't beat. However, dugtrio is a pretty weak pokemon with its only good stat being its high speed, so using dugtrio was always seen as sort of gimmicky, which meant that not many players gave it any serious consideration. Thus dugtrio never really managed to be part of any kind of competitive meta in any other form other than as a niche option that almost no serious player would ever use. In the generation 7 games however, Dugtrio received a small buff to his base attack stat which made a lot of players curious to try him out. Not only did people quickly realize that arena trap was in fact broken, which resulted in it getting banned from competitive play, but it was in fact SO broken that people who went back to play the older games started abusing it in those previous generations too, which eventually resulted in it getting banned there as well. As it turns out, dugtrio never needed the buff in the first place. It was broken all along and people just never realized it because no one thought to use it.

[@slyp05]

I don't get it, they reduced the cost of the gun so people bought it more, well of course no? (reducing cost is a buff)

[@amazedalloy]

Meta Knight has to be OP or he wouldn't be Meta Knight. He'd just be Knight

[@Eliohoho]

Amazed Alloy underrated comment

[@zeikjt]

Maybe that was just a typo and he's actually Mettā Knight.

[@tomstonemale]

I remember a series of videos about Smash being broken, and when it was Brawl's turn almost five minutes of the 9-minute video were about Metaknight. Literally, all of the Metagame of Brawl revolved around that character alone. Thank god for Project M

[@nicostein9875]

I wouldn't mind having the Knight (from Hollow Knight) in Smash Ultimate.

[@igodreamer7096]

Good one! AHHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAA

[@theomegaghost]

"Overpowered", "cheap" and "unfair" are probably the most tame of terms you'll be hearing in multiplayer lobbies.

[@kayorego6420]

Saying that something is "busted" or "BS" is a bit more common than those other ones

[@benschneider3413]

or terms like tilt or toxic when op characters are picked

[@andrei_durlea]

BROKEN

[@robbieaulia6462]

@@benschneider3413 I know right, people kept using those terms that they have lost they're original meaning.

[@IWantToStayAtYourHouse]

The anount of times i heard the n word in online lobbies is insane

[@psinjo]

One thing I'd just like to point out. I know some people like to say "oh, companies should just test more to get balance better" but I'd like to throw out some numbers, just to present a counter point. Lets say, hypothetically, Riot had an absurd 100 employees whose job was to just test a new champion in games for 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, for 2 months before that champion came out, quick math. that's 64,000 hours of testing on one champ. That sounds like a lot, however. When the champion is released to live servers, let's just guess (very low) and say that 1,000,000 of the 30+ million players try the new champion. In under 5 minutes, that champion has seen more play testing than in 2 months of Riot's internal workings. in one day's time, that champion has had thousands of years of play testing. Of course any decent company always tries to stress test everything, but compared to the live player base, there is physically no way they can ever test as much as the players in a few hours time, simply by sheer quantity. It always sucks, but bugs are going to happen and be found. This is true for any game company, Just wanted to throw out this example.

[@missfire9480]

The problem is rarely does Riot do anything with that Data. How it is on the PBE no matter how bad for the game. It goes through. That's just riot tho other games are much better about this.

[@chuckolator1859]

Good point. As you said of course any decent dev would make sure it's not obviously unbalanced, or has a game-breaking glitch or something, but it's honestly so much more effective to let the public try new content. I wonder if the industry should embrace it, basically a "public test" or some acknowledgement, some common understanding in these types of game that new additions are in a trial period for the first few days, or couple of weeks. This could even turn into something more fun and interesting if presented the right way.

[@skanvak]

And that would lead to discovery of new strategy and synergy.

[@davidadrmd4636]

one thing that happened lots of times: released champ that was unplayable (the chicken, the always crit guy.......you know who I'm talking about) watch this from proguides: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpuUkpaFjK-csM0 testing? what is testing?

[@MegaExci]

Every company knows about 99% of the bugs before they release a game. The question is can they troubleshoot it fast enough? A bug in the UI is found pretty fast. A bug on an interaction not so easy. Lets say LoL. You have to go through all scripts for 2 heroes. We are talking about something like 30 scripts each with hundreds of variables. Maybe even more. Now if the programmer goes through all that code and still can't find the reason (keep in mind there are working different people so the writing style may differ). The guy tells his higher up the problem he goes up and so on until one of the bosses says "fuck it it costs too much money to find, just release the new hero and if the community is outraged enough about it we might look into it again.". And the reason for the bug might be something stupid like "we have to put this small part of the code outside of the "if clause" for our engine to get the same result all the time and not 98% of the time". You can get 10 people look at the code and they will all tell you it should work and they can find no problems. Until one programmer understands the logic of the engine to 100%, even in this complex interaction, and looks for exactly this kind of problem. Oh and btw, the real problematic part is everytime someone thinks he got the solution and they change it, they have to test again.

[@adamwasp2717]

Rock is overpowered, what are you talking about. It comes out at frame 0 compared to the other two.

[@Cizal]

doesn't that make it underpowered since your opponent theoretically has more time to react to it being thrown

[@FerousFolly]

@@Cizal no, it gives a skilled player a split second to react to their opponent's paper and morph rock into scissors before the attack hits.

[@ComatHam]

I read once that rock has the highest pick rate, leading to it being the most predictable and thus having the lowest win rate. So the system really does balance itself.

[@kaptaink0]

I'm waiting for the scissor buff...

[@emperortgp2424]

I think you mean it has no input lag.

[@EVILJOE12]

I'd love to see a follow up episode on balance in single player games.

[@AngeloParedes]

The difficulty setting

[@igottachangedmyname]

dark souls?

[@curiouscarlo7276]

I want to know too

[@sadstormtrooper]

Fromsoftware: We don't do that here

[@slicingcucumber6504]

Balance getting over it

[@DanteYewToob]

I like the quote from one of your other videos.. "Players will optimize the fun out of a game." It's too true. Everyone wants what's considered the most powerful, not what they enjoy using.

[@MetaBloxer]

"Players will optimize the fun out a game" *proceeds to be a turtling engineer in TF2*

[@dynastylobster8957]

sometimes i use the fire flower instead of the floaty powerup because its more challenging

[@sashamreow7270]

Well it has to do with their view of what's good like in Monster Hunter people might consider high sharpness which boosts raw damage up to 1.40 ish or higher raw damage for lower sharpness

[@ollyplantsoups7674]

This is what bothers me about netdecking in Magic: The Gathering. Too many people will just copy the strongest decks, until you run into the same deck every game. I know you can always just run a counter, but the problem is lack of originality.

[@commandercorner5575]

I think this stems more from a desire to win than anything. A lot of people don't have fun losing, even if it was a challenging game that swung both ways throughout. Personally, in something like Overwatch, I like to make myself at least competent with every hero in the game so that I'm not stuck playing just a select few heroes. This does mean that generally I'm also able to pick the optimal hero for a matchup and/or map, but there are certainly some heroes I'm just not as good at playing, and so give me a more challenging match. That keeps the game actually very fun for me, as I have a lot of fun playing heroes with which I excel, but have a lot of fun with the challenge presented in playing heroes that are difficult for me to play. I think the lack of fun comes from playing _against_ the same team comps, or decks, or what have you, more than playing what you choose to play. In those situations though, I sometimes just pick an off meta choice to throw off the enemy, because they won't be expecting it and they'll be struggling to deal with my choices. That's just ad much fun for me. I remember when Titanscape was a popular deck in standard Magic, I was running a land denial mill homebrew that just crushed it. No one else I ran into was running it, it was quite effective in its own right, and it was super effective against that particular deck, and all by pure coincidence as I hadn't built the deck specifically to counter it. You can't control anyone else's choices, so if you're not having fun, try making different choices yourself.

[@RhysticStudies]

balancing TCGs (Magic, in my case), is an ongoing struggle facing designers who have so many tiny moving parts in their games. They don't have access to patches since the game pieces are physical cards, and so outright banning is often the only available option, which creates distrust in the community. the point about a self-correcting metagame is very much the ideal scenario, and Magic is at its greatest when the meta shifts around and invites counter strategies to problematic or situationally overpowered cards.

[@MrTrombonebandgeek]

Given magic has like 2k cards, yugioh has like 8k cards and pokemon has about the same as magic in variation, and essentially billions of ways to make a deck in each game, its hard to balance

[@RhysticStudies]

@@MrTrombonebandgeek magic has over 20,000 unique cards.

[@MarsJenkar]

If patches can exist in card games, they exist in the form of new cards. I definitely saw this approach taken by the card company that I followed back in the late '90s and early '00s.

[@mattpope6711]

As well as this, new cards are often made better than older ones so that you are forced to keep buying if you want to have a competitively viable deck.

[@MrTrombonebandgeek]

@@mattpope6711 MTG and pokemon tcg do ban certain collections/generations after a while. Where as yugioh just has severe power creep

[@pjheric]

Love how Mark just created so many accounts just to record multiplayer footage And having things like double longsword Morgana

[@TheRighteousDawn]

Omg I saw that haha, I was like what is this build XD

[@mapytrix3982]

Maybe he got footage from others

[@jonniboye6399]

Gotta be a new account, they were running heal and ghost. Probably weren't even a high enough level for flash haha. Also explains that kda

[@tinyer3]

"In Overwatch, the team is the hand, and the players are the throws." Never have I heard a truer statement

[@Coltingtons]

you missed the "er" in throwers 😂

[@Tubeytime]

@@Coltingtons Damn, you said it first

[@maggoteer948]

And sometimes said thrown items suddenly start leaking acid and start screaming to the others.

[@testhekid]

true

[@ValkyrieTiara]

"The individual players are the throws." Truer words were never spoken.

[@TheRubberducky999]

by that do you mean the teammates that keep throwing my games and never letting me hit challenjour? :^(

[@Funkopedia]

Just like the team is the tree, and the players are the leaves? ;)

[@PolyverseCube]

Where is your Hamuko profile pic from?

[@ValkyrieTiara]

@@PolyverseCube I don't wanna post a link here but the artist is Zelkats on deviantart. Shouldn't be hard to find! Hamuko nation rise up!

[@clearsky4049]

Would love to see you tackle "Power Creep" in a future video, I think its a very interesting problem encountered in online games.

[@tylerduncanson2661]

Especially power creep of player skill.

[@cael5118]

@@tylerduncanson2661 nah

[@tylerduncanson2661]

@@cael5118 Why not?

[@tylerduncanson2661]

@Zakareya Alatoli Design your mechanics to that no character/item/ability is overpowered in the hands of any player. There are many things that devs implement that become ridiculous in the hands of a master. You can future-proof your design so that as players get better, they don't break your game.

[@coriae]

Tyler Duncanson why handicap the skill ceiling of your players. imagine if valve made the skill ceiling of tf2 into that of say overwatchs, the community would go bananas, on a further note (unrelated to tf2), how would you "future-proof" a sniper while still making it viable to use? (i.e. you cant put rng on the bullets, and it has to kill in at most 2 shots if they are at full health)

[@Garrth415]

This video really makes me wish you'd do some stuff on turn based RPG's like how they scale enemies, encounter rates, xp etc. and how they come up with and implement all the math that goes with them.

[@pgmr6304]

If u ever played a ttrpg like dnd its very similar way every dm approaches encounter. Stuff like generally knowing damage per round which takes into account the change of hitting and generally what a player at that level can do. Also sometimes in rpgs u dont want both sides balanced sometimes u want the enemys to be a bit more beefier so that players have to assess the systems alot more

[@polkadi]

Halo: Reach has a rifle called the DMR, which is well-rounded to work in all combative situations. The problem is, it's _too_ well rounded, that it's the perfect weapon at all ranges. To make matters worse, an update made it the starting weapon of all multiplayer modes with the Assault Rifle, compared to the usual Assault Rifle and Magnum combo seen in other Halo games. The DMR is just too good, that no one will feel the need to swap to any other weapon, except for weapons like the Sniper Rifle and the Rocket Launcher, which hold the advantage at certain ranges. But even then, they'll hold those weapons in reserve alongside their DMR. If it were just a weapon that a player could find, pick up, and then run around with, it could balance out the game a little. But because it is one of the first weapons you spawn with, any other weapon becomes obsolete.

[@58847436]

Polkadi that DMR owned. You are so right, it's almost exclusively used

[@theironrhino110]

But that’s all Halo games. CE: Pistol 2: Battle Rifle 3: Battle Rifle 4: Battle Rifle 5: Pistol

[@tobiramasenju6290]

@@theironrhino110 says you I duel wield

[@alex_oiman]

perfect timing. i was getting bored and was thinking about doing something useful and then this popped up

[@s4ad0wpi]

Phew! Saved!

[@brettd2308]

I feel attacked by this comment.

[@gamedesignwithmichael]

................ I find this useful

[@Phychologik]

Thank goodness, we couldn’t have that, could we?

[@hrmph6938]

Same I was gonna go to bed

[@YoYoCheese6]

Skullgirls is extremely well balanced. The tier list in that game is more trivia than anything else. Guilty Gear XX Accent Core is up there too.

[@Pacemaker_fgc]

Didn’t Zappa have some crazy bullshit +R? I’ve heard horror stories from OGs at my locals.

[@Cunt143]

Guilty Gear rev 2 is way better balanced than +R

[@YoYoCheese6]

@@Pacemaker_fgc I'm talking about AC, not +R. AC admittedly does have a couple of awful matchups (Chipp vs. Potemkin and Johnny vs. Eddie) but those are still quite doable in tournament. If anything +R made the game slightly less balanced although that's mostly because Justice has a very polarized matchup chart. +R Zappa is really good, but he's not worse than AC Eddie. (Plus Zappa's a scrub killer in +R so people complain about him more.) +R is still overall a balanced game though. I'm not trying to imply otherwise.

[@fl0wey57]

Makes me kinda sad that the first thing I remember is ForHonor’s first six months balance( or extreme lack there of)

[@DaniAzakura]

I was just about to say Skullgirls, and here you are, beating me at it. I'm actually impressed to find another SG player around xD

[@tomrivlin7278]

This is the longest I've heard someone talk about making things perfectly balanced since I watched Infinity War

[@marcoshayman8535]

You certainly never heard about a channel called The Spiffing Brit

[@PowerSenpai]

@@marcoshayman8535 It ain't balanced without some Yorkshire Tea

[@Lyrical14369]

Perfectly stirred, as all things should be

[@99joaorenato]

@@marcoshayman8535 9 9999

[@mr-pixel5509]

😂😂😂

[@helenzlazzli]

"Like being a medic, or an engineer" Med mains are not gonna be happy about this at all lol

[@rofln00b]

Being a med is easy. Being a good med that actually benefits the team, not so much. Or at least that's what it seems.

[@FungusTrooper]

I think the point he was going for is even a poor medic/engie *can* help a team. Healing *someone*, or setting up a dispenser *somewhere* is at least marginally useful. Going soldier and just repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot isn't helping anything at all.

[@64revolt]

@@FungusTrooper Or like, playing a medic and getting hunted by the entire enemy team (because they understand that you *should* be a high-priority target) while your dps and tanks just run straight in the zerg and constantly die. Soldier at the least sometimes uses the flank routes, and might even heal himself (also, not the team because 'hey, we've got a Mercy, I don't care').

[@devnyorm944]

No, we're pissed

[@BloodRoseRecords]

I was pretty good as a medic and sniper and horrible at pretty much everything else. Even though I think I brought a decent amount of skill *to* medic, I wouldn't argue that it's a better class for low-skill players.

[@gyermolenko]

Great video, enjoyed watching it. It's a pity you haven't covered the most peculiar case of StarCraft (1st). Released in March 1998, received last balance patch in May 2001. And then - many years (18 so far) of meta shifts without balance patches. What they do is use different kinds of maps to balance things out (by a notch, not very significantly). So environment, not races are being fine-tuned. And the game is played at the veeery high competitive level, since 1998.

[@abstractdaddy1384]

Completely agree. If the topic is balance in esports, brood war deserves a video to itself.

[@delinquenz46]

I also wondered why he didn't mention SC:BW when talking about the meta playing itself out. SC:BW is basically balanced by the map creators.

[@kodoy]

Starcraft and SSBM man. Games so expressive, well designed and balanced that they stand the test of time and have meta shifts decades in.

[@hommhommhomm]

Balance only exists in relation to map. So the dev has to specify the standard map to balance against. On a different map new things will be OP.

[@aronyoturjo573]

Also the only time they tried to balance the races, they fucked up. Bad.

[@eatari02]

11:00 Watching Mark wack on a turret with 0 metal for 5 seconds made me very happy.

[@OrangeShanker]

Wasn't expecting the Core-A reference but was pleasantly surprised. I'd recommend several of his videos to those interested in the design of Fighting Games

[@nicocchi]

Seconded. I'm not that into fighting games beyond Smash (inb4 smash isn't a fighting game) but he's interesting to listen

[@TheSamuelOwens]

Definitely agree. I love watching analytic videos and I’ve discovered CoreAs channel a while ago and it’s pretty good

[@chevychelios4672]

Also MacSplicer

[@hirumaryuei]

@@nicocchi Smash is a fighting game, but it would be nice if there were traditional fighting games at smash majors. Smash frequently shows up at other FGC majors, but the only Smash major where there's SF5 or Tekken or Cross Tag is Evo.

[@Platitudinous9000]

p mack Smash is unique enough to have its own community and events separate from the general FGC, but it's still "fighting game" enough to appear in large-scale tournaments such as Evo. (And drawing in the Smash audience certainly doesn't hurt! $$$)

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

One character can be Overpowered at one skill level and Underpowered at another, and I love you acknowledging as such.

[@gamedesignwithmichael]

*cough* mid-tier zerg *cough*

[@5oundOfVictory]

Caveira comes to mind, she's super good in copper-gold, because no one communicates or pushes together and you can easily silent-step around an get interrogations left and right, but in high gold-diamond, she's unusable for the most part because people aren't fuckin stupid

[@sciencepluspotato1294]

Mei At a higher skill level she isn't really good but she tends to make people panic or rage at a lower skill level

[@iaxacs3801]

A good example of this is Frost in Siege she's not that great in lower ranks cause everyone expects her and her traps. In high ranked games though she has the highest win rate in the game since no one checks the floors for traps.

[@Daemonworks]

Killing joke characters are kind of amazing. There's nothing like the moment when somebody everone thinks is useless and just stuck in for a laugh (thus, Joke Character) turns out to be unstoppable in the right hands. Can't really stay that way, the responses when it first happens are glorious.

[@giggityguy]

The hardest part of balance is making something that is balanced both for low-level and high-level play. Often making something balanced for one end of the spectrum messes up things at the other end, either by placing counters above high skill floors (screwing over low-level players) or by introducing easily abusable gimmicks (screwing over high-level balance). I think the lesson to be drawn there is that using player skill as the sole balancing tool will often create problems.

[@Adri9570]

During the testing I did to balance the board game Risk I got to this 2 principles that somewhat can be applied to any game to avoid balancing issues and stalling: 1 - If someone controls half of everything (half of the territories of the world in this case) = automatic win. Why? Because at this point the advantage of the best player is so huge that winning the game is almost unavoidable, so there's no need to waste more time past this point. Let the game end to give a chance to play again instead of sustaining a stalling nightmare that kills the fun. 2 - No one is allowed to take away the minimum amount of power that any player needs to just have a chance to continue to play without being stalled. In this case the minimum amount of territories that every player has to have is: *Everything / (number of players / 2)* example: no player can take any of the last 7 territories from any other player. This is a "stop spawn killing" rule that gives the worst players a real chance to continue playing without the issue of punishing the other players. The other players will end fighting against "someone their size" instead of "destroying the kindergarten".

[@noammanakermorag9538]

An important note about the Rock Paper Scissors concept. Overwatch suffered from a meta like this very heavily for a while: because some heroes or hero comps just locked out others, in high level play you would see two players waiting in spawn, switching back and forth between heroes, neither able to actually play the game lest they be hard locked by their counter. A Rock Paper Scissors balancing strategy should be based on soft counters, not hard counters: even with a worse hero lineup, both sides should still be able to win with significantly better play. The mcree-tracer example is really good: Mcree technically counters tracer, but you have to be good enough to pull it off. Just picking the right setup shouldn’t decide the game before it begins.

[@lugnut1206]

> ... and the players are the throws > chooses torbjorn on character select screen

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

>Throws Torbjorn At The Screen

[@michaelaeschbacher4648]

Jokes aside, I feel like Overwatch is a game where any character can be amazing in the right match and especially with the right player. That's part of why I stopped playing - you get guys yelling at you to switch characters before the match even starts. Watch any videogamedunkey video about Overwatch; a good chunk of the community is really as toxic as it looks

[@Kilroywuzheere]

Its worth noting that Torb is significantly more powerful on consoles thanks to the turret's auto aim

[@AWallace722]

Torb is much better at lower than higher ranks since it always acts the same, kinda like a bot, so low skill players struggle while it becomes a joke at the high end

[@Henrix1998]

@@michaelaeschbacher4648 Yap, same. OW has too many heavy counters and requires switching between heroes

[@esWhistler]

I'm still waiting for the developers of chess to make some changes, Sicilian defence and Queen's Gambit declined have been the only openings seen in high level play for years!

[@AzrgExplorers]

Chess 960 has been around for over 20 years!

[@Shain3333]

Not really: the Ruy Lopez and the English are also seen frequently. You may know that top competitors try to catch each other by surprise in the opening very often since it’s almost impossible to get winning chances otherwise.

[@Maggotbone]

Just go play Chess 2

[@salvadorarreolarodriguez6165]

Sicilian Pelikan, Magnus is awesome...

[@Harmless_Music]

@@Shain3333 Wasn't the Ruy Lopez constantly avoided by Black though? I could've sworn in the last decade people found out that the Ruy Lopez, when accepted by Black, puts Black in a horrible spot. I think White also figured that the Ruy Lopez doesn't give quite as much attack tempo as other openings do as well, but it might also vary per player matchup.

[@justingreenland7399]

I appreciate that you actually have modern League of Legends footage whereas most youtubers will pull up stuff from ancient times when they talk about the game.

[@TheRighteousDawn]

I was laughing at whoever was playing that Morg cos they were building some whacky shit, like 2X long swords and a ruby crystal?

[@euanworth9887]

@@TheRighteousDawn That was GMTK, his gamer take is britishgaming, I've seen it in other videos, also the fact that they were level 9 next to an enemy jungle showed it was high level.

[@VanK782]

They wait for the copyright to expire lol

[@rodneyjones1990]

I miss the pre-internet days when (local) multiplayer games would all launch unbalanced and broken. Permanently. *cough* Goldeneye N64 *cough*

[@borismuller86]

Rodney Jones remember: NO ODDJOB.

[@stevethepocket]

And then they'd rerelease it like six or seven times under increasingly complicated and confusing names in an attempt to address balance issues (Street Fighter II, anyone?)

[@psinjo]

Oddjob says hello :)

[@cardboardhawks6783]

Pocket Fluff Productions you mean the street fighter II series, as capcom calls it?

[@franchstar1]

the beauty of local was that you could make you own rules like don't pick the op hero so balance is not as important as in online.

[@beauchang4741]

"The entire team are the throws" I'm sure pun was intended there

[@dikinebaks]

Core-A Gaming is a great channel! I hope more people watch him thanks to you

[@MasterKnightDH]

Core-A Gaming is full of arrogance.

[@leelee9523]

Master Knight DH wym??? He’s cool as fuck

[@ACME777o7]

@@MasterKnightDH why is that?

[@MasterKnightDH]

@@ACME777o7 They think the way to "balance" games is to make flowchart or anything they can overpowered, instead of giving a damn about effort.

[@Konchatus]

@@MasterKnightDH you clearly misunderstood the message of the video if that's what you think. In no way, shape or form he said "everything should be overpowered" nor about flowcharts. Give it a few more watches with less negative attitude and maybe you'll understand his points.

[@DarylTalksGames]

I may in the minority here, but it's almost fun to me when games get patched or big time strategies in the meta get changed. When the community has to adapt and find new ways to win, I think it breeds a much more creative player base. So glad to finally see GMTK talk about fighting games :)

[@cogginsnuff]

I agree although I do prefer it to happen like he described, naturally and through players finding different ways to counter the meta. It's so hard to do right and so I will happily take changes made by devs to breath fresh air into a meta over nothing.

[@Speedy-Rabbit]

the "community" rarely think for themselves though. usually they just see what the top of the ladder and pro players are picking, and emulate that, many times without even understanding why

[@cogginsnuff]

@@Speedy-Rabbit Pro players are part of the community. The majority of players may not always be the smartest or most informed but that doesn't make their input towards the meta any more or less valid it just makes it different.

[@Ovvkoz]

I feel like Skullgirls deserves special mention or fine-tuned design and gorgeous balance

[@yvesgomes]

I only played the game a bit, because 2D fighters are not my cup of tea. But I was so impressed at how unique the characters are!

[@Ovvkoz]

@@yvesgomes that was honestly the biggest draw for me. Ima sucker for unique funky designs and smooth smooth animations. Double is my absolute favorite

[@Se7enRemain]

Give a trophy to that game for being the only fun, balanced game. Man there's some boring games out there!... Overwatch.

[@YakubTheKid]

When every character has an 8 way mixup, every character becomes viable. Props to MikeZ

[@blastcage]

Honestly he missed a bunch of much better-balanced games to just look at the most popular stuff like OW and League, it's pretty disappointing

[@Hubert_Cumberdale_]

Game Devs: "Let's make shotguns good and fun to use" Players: "I got one shot killed by a shotgun plz nerf" Game Devs: "Ok let's nerf them into the ground giving it 50% chance to kill with one shot at point blank range" Every modern fps multiplayer game.

[@razorback9999able]

The reality is, Shotguns on their own aren't at fault for breaking the game. *It's the game/map design that favors using shotguns that makes them overpowered.*

[@romantistcaveman]

_Age of Mythology_ is one of my favorite RTSes of all time and is interesting about how it locks in your hands (you pick a unique civ with a major god at the beginning) and your throws (in addition to the usual RTS business of being able to build and adjust your strategy accordingly, you may choose a minor god at each tier to give you access to a god power, new units, and technology). Which in practice should lead to a versatile meta, but is pretty much a "solved game" at the highest level, with only certain gods and certain strats being viable in the competitive scene. For instance, Egyptians worshiping Isis can prevent enemies from casting God powers within the vicinity of their monuments, which is a very powerful bonus and has made worshiping Isis one of the only ways to play Egyptian. Of course, the game was also produced before the era where constant balance updates were expected of any asymmetric competitive online multiplayer game, but it's a shame that the competitive scene isn't terribly interesting to watch.

[@Jolgeable]

Oh, I miss this game, great AOM! =D I've seen a youtube channel about Age of Empires II called Spirit of the Law. That guy has tons of videos analyzing the civs, their strenghs and stuff... really impressive (and, as you mentioned, without the patches and updates).

[@dj_koen1265]

A well designed game doesn’t need frequant changes Aom is just poorly optimized for competitive play That doesnt mean its bad though Just not suited for diverse strategy at high level

[@defunctchannel942]

Most balanced game I ever played was Warhawk for PS3. Smash Ultimate has pretty good balance, and especially so for a game with over 70 fighters

[@ketsuekikumori9145]

Part of the reason it's is as balanced as it is, is because of the iterative nature the series (that goes for other fighting games). As you may know, many of the fighters started out as clones of older fighters, with maybe tweaked stats. So they mostly felt the same, but a different balance of strengths and weakness compared to the original. Then you have semi-clones, fighters who have similar movesets in certain areas, but differ a lot in others. A lot of fighters that were introduced in an earlier game, not only has the advantage of being tweaked from patch cycles for that particular game in context of the other fighters, it'll be mostly fleshed out by the next game.

[@cameronschiralli3569]

Yeah, Ultimate is pretty balanced, especially when compared to other Smash games. The fact that there's only, like, 10 or so characters that are considered "low tier", and even they can still hold their own against high tier characters if played right is incredible. I just hope none of the DLC turned out like Smash 4 Bayo...

[@Boulder7685]

cameron schiralli as a fan who cried when Joker was announced, I really don’t want him to be an OP tool for players to use just because they want to win easier.

[@danielbailey211]

@@cameronschiralli3569 If you really think about it, there are 10 or so characters considered low tier in all the smash games, its just the roster size that changed, like in 64, you could only really play kirby or pikachu or in sm4sh there are only 11 "unplayable" characters; Ganon, puff, zelda, doc, bowser jr, falco, wii fit, link, kirby, dedede and pacman

[@JAMllostthegame]

There's also the fact that the game is less than half a year old. Compared to Melee's 15 year history, we don't have a lot of data yet and patches are still a thing. It is currently looking to be very balanced, but let's not forget people said the same thing about Sm4sh when we had pre-patch Diddy, Sheik, Cloud (double Cloud was apparently banned for doubles), and of course Bayo (who many players were considering banning).

[@tollyx]

On the topic of well-balanced games, I have to give a shout-out to 'Guilty Gear Xrd Rev2', it's common to see tournament top 8's with 8 different characters.

[@Pan_Z]

That goes for a lot of modern fighting games. Tekken 7, SoulCalibur VI, Smash, UNIST. Modern fighting games are typically pretty well balanced, ought to legacy knowledge and patches.

[@stareater4629]

Yah guilty gear

[@rachetmarvel931]

Elphelt and Johnny are not balanced.

[@RoxioGamingHD]

Thank you for including the names of the games on the screen when you show them! There have been so many times when I see something in a video and just can't find it.

[@Salsmachev]

One that I like is the asymetric power levelling in D&D (Often called linear fighter, quadratic wizard). The idea is that no two classes advance in the same pattern, and that each class has a level range where they get to dominate. Fighters start strong with good hitpoints, defensive stats, and reliable damage output, but have a linear progression so they go from being the most playable class at level one to quickly being overtaken as other classes gain more options (such as the paladin gaining spellcasting abilities). Wizards, on the other hand, exponentially increase their power with each level, so even though they die a lot at level one because they're weak, squishy, and only get on or two spells per day, by level 20 they're the most powerful class and can literally warp reality. The goal isn't to make every class equal at all times, but to make each class have its moment in the spotlight (and good DMs can use adventure/level design to play into that).

[@testpermanent417]

I think smash ultimate is one of the most well balanced games I’ve ever seen and it’s pretty incredible. At a causal level every single character is viable. This is less true at a higher level but a vast majority with the exception of maybe 10-15 characters are viable options and can win tournaments. This is best show by the fact that Mkleo (the best player) mains a rather mid-tier characters byleth and corrin yet still dominates.

[@martial_artist_and_knight]

But that is still looking at it very narrowly. Smash is far from a balanced game. Even if none of the characters are directly unusable like in previous entries, there are still characters like aegis and the pikachus who are directly better than most other characters, and allow worse players to beat better ones when at even casual levels of gameplay. Steve may even kill ultimate's competitive scene as a whole because of how campy he is, and how he isn't fun to watch or play against. Also, smash's entire design philosophy of DLC characters being directly better than the base roster is just poor design, gameplay-wise.

[@testpermanent417]

@@martial_artist_and_knightOf course no game is perfect. I never claimed smash was a perfectly balanced game. I just think it is the best balanced. A vast majority of the cast isn't unplayable as long as you're good enough. Characters like Pikachu and Aegis also take quite a lot of skill to play well. You can't just select them and become automatically better, and when it comes to casual levels of smash I think top tiers are worse compared to heavies with simple and effective gameplay. Smash has had a DLC probable but that's not a design philosophy. The devs are trying to make the characters you have to buy separately worth the price tag and so they often try a lot of new unconventional things to make them stand out. Also I like Steve. I enjoy watching him and it's a matter of opinion whether you think he's fun or not. TL;DR Of course smash has problems perfect balance is impossible and boring, but In my Opinion Smash has the best balance.

[@Eliohoho]

Thank you so much for including ARMS into this video. This game is actually an extremely good example of RPC design and is imo one of the most balanced combat games out there. Not to mention that it's simple and brilliant. Before release they actually got a machine learning algorithm play infinite matches with all combinations of arms and got a good, raw data-based balance state to start with.

[@lwyz8a]

Woah, I didn't know that, mind If ask for a source on that? I would like to know more about it since it's ML applied to games.

[@amauryvazquez8073]

Luis Ochoa the development team talks about it in their GDC presentation for ARMS.

[@Eliohoho]

@@lwyz8a Yup search for that GDC talk. Some footage in Mark's video is from there. It's called ''Building 'Mario Kart 8' Insights into a Showcase Nintendo Switch Fighter''

[@PuppetMasterIX]

I hadn't seen the GDC talk but the fact that they made a detailed graph of character matchups at the top 3% is commendable. I hope other competitive Nintendo IPs like Smash and Splatoon can follow in the footsteps of ARMS with how it researches balance and communicates said research to the public.

[@justsignmeup911]

"If Zangief couldn't block he would be unusable." nobody tell this to mecha zangief.

[@luzonnexusx9638]

justsignmeup911 what?

[@justsignmeup911]

@@luzonnexusx9638 mecha zangief can't block in the early marvel capcom games.

[@MIC2077]

@@justsignmeup911 was he unusable?

[@rampant1apart]

@@mmking9999 Yeah, he was a very much a character to use on a fluke. He slowed down waaaaaaaay too much to be usable.

[@AntiqueGear]

A big mistake I see a lot of indie devs make is not getting feedback; which is EXTREMELY important with any game, especially these kinds.

[@haydenhodson6793]

"So how do developers go about balancing things out" Gaijin: we don't do that here

[@ian-qo8fq]

Riot games: You guys are *balancing?*

[@tobiramasenju6290]

Gaijin - Gaiden, Ninja. Close enough.

[@robbieaulia6462]

I mean of the solution is just by moving the viechel to a different type of player, why would you even change the stats?

[@Thederanged1]

13:03 this is an example of a perfectly balanced fighting game right here. All 30+ characters of Killer Instinct can win a fight depending on the players skill with that character.

[@KhumaMitsu]

06:47 "In a team based game like Overwatch the entire team is the hand while the individual players are the throw[ers]" Tell me about it

[@DaggerPrince]

its always the healers fault tho. and im not saying this in a "coming from a salty healer scum" way. im just stating the facts.

[@IvanX1991]

@@DaggerPrince Keep LOS with your healers and stop trying to 1v3 the enemy backline

[@pierre6339]

Also very few people know what to do with a tank. The healers and dps are usually the first people blamed when the team is losing but in most cases its the tanks fault. (Im a tank main btw).

[@Funkopedia]

@@pierre6339 shhh don't give away our secrets

[@TheDarkever]

In Magic the Gathering Mirrodin expansion, artifact decks with Arcbound Ravager were so insanely overpowered that many players actually began playing ridiculous mono-green decks whose only purpose was to kill artifacts. It almost always won against Arcbound Ravager decks, but lost against anything else. Arcbound Ravager was thankfully banned and this silliness ended.

[@occamsbutterknife9186]

Don't forget zero drop decks. I actually loved the Mirrodin block.

[@sanserino3489]

“Sees league of legends footage” Ok, interesting “Sees double long sword Morgana” Very, very, INTeresting

[@tbone823]

It hurt to see

[@pizzalamander]

but have you seen the 1/13 score behind that?

[@tbone823]

@@pizzalamander 1 kill? Better than my yasuo already

[@taitrinh8650]

See LOL footage. "200 patches in the last decade". Shit still OP. God. I love this game :))

[@beardyjesus4591]

@@taitrinh8650 Op shit always changes.... Btw MOBAs are probaly hardest type of games to balance cause of number of variables

[@omari6108]

That itchy and scratch clip when you mentioned counters fit so well 😂 Megaman X Dive. That’s the first game I’ve taken note where the devs decided to call an exploit a feature, then teach everyone how to do it. Suddenly the meta becomes an exploit that the devs encourage.

[@frosteryoutube1551]

I was so excited when you mentioned TF2, but as soon as you show the clip where you just burn everyone to ashes as a Pyro, I almost choked.

[@Calcos323]

I'm surprised you never brought up Tekken 7. It's widely regarded as the most balanced fighting game released in the last decade, and it'd have been great to hear your opinion as to why this is

[@magharam5283]

C.R. Calkos wake n

[@2000Doriyas]

He must not be personally familiar with Tekken, but it does extremely well at being balanced, in particular multiple characters within the last two days were nerfed to minimize their most gimmicky tools while gaining buffs to their safe poking abilities (Katarina, Noctis) to make them balanced at beginner-intermediate-high intermediate skill levels.

[@LenyadorSueco]

*laughs in Akuma*

[@keo_bas]

You'll be surprise how many actually dont share the same sentiment. Tekken 7 the most ballance tekken game but other fighter have better track record. (Unist, MK 11, BBtag)

[@cheema8649]

@@keo_bas BBTag? I would sell my right leg to delete mitsuru and akihiko from the game

[@acetrigger1337]

That GRID OST fits so perfectly to the pace of your videos...

[@Tomizor]

Have you considered writing a book, like a compilation of the things you've talked about in you videos?

[@mayhem3649]

that grid OS is really nostalgic, your making me want to go back to the original and play it all over again

[@Schenkel101]

Every time I hear the name Dirty Bomb my heart dies a little. Such a good game, killed before its prime.

[@zaki6548]

It's dead? Damn I used to play it with my friends years ago

[@benjaminloyd6056]

I used to play it a lot. Some real down-to-the-wire games. My favorite character was Phoenix, though later I used Bushmaster more.

[@Maggotbone]

Killer Instinct and Tekken 7 are some of the most balanced multiplayer games I've played.

[@Gogozeppelii]

I agree, Tekken 7, in my opinion, is the most balanced fighting game thats out right now. A supposedly "bottom tier" character was able to win the world tour finals. If thats not balanced, idk what is.

[@drwill439]

@@Gogozeppelii though I agree that tekken 7 is balanced well, you can't count out the amount of skill that it took for that win to take place either.

[@satrioekowicaksono7452]

But guest Character sucks

[@zanebruce2546]

@@satrioekowicaksono7452 Chanel, Super Akouma? The amount of Geese use in general. I personally don't like the character's, but they don't suck

[@FullMe7alJacke7]

Also here to say Tekken 7

[@ChrisTrenary]

Perfectly balanced. As all things should be.

[@tselis]

But what did it cost?

[@davidecampi109]

tselis everything..

[@fakkmorradi]

halving the roster isnt balance. thanos never once thought about fair distribution of resources. what if musk, bezos and gates all survived the snap

[@phoenixcgamer4068]

well if everything in life is balanced then there would never be anything interesting. everyone wants to "have it easy" but nobody ever want to put in the effort to make life easy. if you work really hard in life everything you want will come to you (as long as you don't spend all of your money). if you are talking about everyone getting the same amount of money or communism (like i think you are saying) then things being perfectly balanced never will work. say there are 2 people, 1 person is working really hard and gets paid 15 dollars a hour, the second person is slacking off and doing no work at all but he is also getting 15 dollars an hour. the first person working really hard will see that other person and think to himself "why am i working so hard when i could just slack off". eventually that first person will stop working, and everyone around these people will do the same thing. now lets say we fire them then they will be homeless but in a true communistic state everyone is "balanced" so they will still be getting paid the same amount of money from the government. and where is the government getting that money... So things cant be "Perfectly balanced". I want to do no work but still be able to do the things i want to do. but i am not a special snow flake and neither are you, we need too live our lives and work hard in order to live the life (we might not want to live, but the life we can live) everyone can be like Elon Musk if they just work hard enough. I apologize if you are not talking about politics, i just want to make this clear communism does not work and it will eventually collapse like all of the other communistic countries that used to exist. do the research.

[@ADudeWithAPC]

Dota 2 had the 6.88 patch, where all characters were played equally. Problem is that people were bored, and hype was building for the next patch. The game has never been as balanced as then and probably never will be, but it still is fun. Dead by Daylight is weird, in that because of how the two sides of a match are completely different, people will always argue. Therefore I think a better solution is to make both sides less annoying, even if it means sacrificing balance.

[@Ferret440]

I was thinking Dota 2 would have been a great example, especially with how meta evolves from tournament to tournament in the same patch.

[@tonkahanah5890]

even still, dota 2 is probably one of the best balanced games. I dont blame them for changing from that patch (I remember it, it was a good time) but even still during that patch there was certain meta's IE some heroes played a bit more than others. think we saw every hero played at least once that TI but definitely some played more than others. perfect balance is never achievable but tilting the scales and then trying to bring it back in is what the evolving and advancing meta is all about. every one wants to find the next big thing to take advantage of in the next patch so for games like dota 2 or league.. these kinds of shifts are very much welcome.

[@NonJohns]

6:32 The hands concept explains why I'm so disappointed in Overwatch's double shield meta Only a select few heroes can be hands, which means you might not be able to play the way you want, at the risk of throwing

[@cromanticheer]

Yeah, the whole 2-2-2 lock initially rubbed me the wrong way because it fundamentally locked what options for throws the hands had. Previously, if you needed a specific counter (or a counter already on your team needed additional assistance) you had the entire roster as your oyster throughout the entire match. But now if your team needs additional type of damage and you started the match as support, you're stuck with a small pool that might not have the tools you need. I get that the devs had probably exhausted multiple options before settling on it and balanced team composition is important to a team multiplayer game, and again, people like optimizing the fun out of a competitive multiplayer game, but it's still kinda sad to be spoiled by TF2's freedom of class swapping and OW's initial no limits, only to have further and further restrictions placed on your options.

[@zak9399]

@@cromanticheer It's really sad seeing how much more limited the game became over the years. I remember when the game first came out, the devs considered hero stacking a legitimate tactic to explore. It was removed because, like all multiplayer games with a wide cast of characters, some heroes edged out as being better-if only slightly-against others at any given time. Which means not only would you see them every game, you'd often see _multiple_ on the same team per game.

[@periclescomoeddie5215]

@@cromanticheer At least we don't have to deal with infinite symetra and Torb turrets anymore.

[@Ruby_Coast]

Would love to see you tackle the idea of level and content editors/built-in game developing tools/ any type of "non-professional" game making program, like in one's in your Mario Maker video, or the LaboVR Garage, or even the upcoming Minecraft-like Hytale's game modding app (created by veteran Minecraft server owners no less). LaboVR has really opened up my horizons on how complex in-game level creators can be. I'd really love to hear your thoughts on general "developing tool design" such as accessibility, UI, limitations of tools, learning curve and so on. This is somewhat outside the realm of videogame design, but I think level editors are so important for players to get into game design and just thinking about game design. And wouldn't it be appropriate for you to talk about a "Game Maker's Toolkit"?

[@vincent78433]

For the most balanced game i think it would be kinda easy to pick a game where the options are very similar making balancing a lot easier but i think it's more interesting to mention a game where the options to pick are wildly different. My vote for this goes to dota 2 it's gotta be one of the hardest games to balance the counters are very complex already which is made even more complicated by that fact that it's 5v5 and you also have combos to consider and also ingame strategies and tactics lane matchups item builds roles etc. A good example for me of a poorly balanced game is league of legends sure the winrates are pretty among champs but some much of the individual character of champs was sacrificed for this that a lot of them feel way to similar counters and combos are way less relevant in that game and items are way simpler also. Also shoutout to starcraft II even though the game only has 3 races they are still all completely different and overall well balanced. I guess when it comes to balance for me i tend to favor bigger difference in options more truly unique choices. Obviously this is something very hard to balance but when it's done right it's amazing.

[@MisterMunkki]

Balance isn't just about multiplayer games though ! That's just where it gets the most extreme

[@HCosta1001]

Eh I'd say as long as it's not completely breaking the game or actively weakening the gameplay loop balance is very insignificant for single player games. As long as your player is having fun, it doesn't matter.

[@ComatHam]

@@HCosta1001 Extra Credits made a nice video about how inbalance and overpowered items can lead to a better experience, due to the game getting a dynamic difficulty. Basicly, a player can decide themself if and how much they want to exploid the mechanics, thus avoiding having to feel humiliated for lowering the games difficulty.

[@benedict6962]

@@HCosta1001 It's actually very easy for poor balance to weaken the gameplay loop, though. Not just with people who fall out of the expected skill range, but just with gaining exp/items at a faster or slower rate than ideal.

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

There's actually a lot of joy to be had in UN-BALANCED single player games! Overpowered weapons, for example, are often used as a reward - allowing the player to trivialize the challenge if they feel like it. On the flip-side, there are extreme difficulty levels that are horrendously unfair, yet they remain popular and fun because they test skilled players and flatten the rest of us (both can be fun!). Some games like Bloodborne depend on imbalance to stay interesting: The player character is in no way comparable to the bosses; the point isn't to BE fair, it's to FEEL fair. The hunters you find in Bloodborne share your move-set, but they deal more damage and have 10x your HP - because they would be trivial to fight if they were actually balanced.

[@budspudsy436]

@@exquisitecorpse4917 If a game's difficulty was so hard that it tipped the scale into "horrendously unfair" levels, I don't think they would remain very popular.

[@Inimigor1]

That Grid menu music always brings me joy, I love that game!

[@theoxne3166]

Agreed, my face lit up when i heard that first chime play.

[@MondSemmel]

A game that particularly struggles with balancing is Magic: The Gathering, and its PC version MTG Arena. Because it's originally a physical collectible card game, they can't incrementally change overpowered cards; the only lever they have is to ban them from competitive play. And since these physical cards often cost a ton and can be traded on a secondary market, bans make players who own these cards very unhappy. This makes the game's designers rather reluctant to ban stuff, and has resulted in some very unfun metas in recent times.

[@plastictrumpet6862]

It's similar in Yugioh even while having a fully flexible banlist rather than the set rotation rotation MTG has. Things that are over powered are eventually banned, however, it usually takes a good amount of months post-release in order for people who have invested into the card or sealed product to get their money's worth before it eventually becomes more or less worthless outside of collector purposes.

[@TheZenytram]

every card game is design to not be balanced ever, or they would never create new card again and again.

[@WoofDg79]

I always found Metal Gear Online 2 (the online mode in MGS4) to be the most balanced online game I've experienced. It had 4 skill slots and a whole plethora of different skills. Each skill went from lvl1 to lvl4 and the only way to increase its level was to perform those actions / use that skill. Whatever level the skill was determined how many skill slots it took up, and you could mix and match skills this way. You could 4 lvl1 skills, 1 lvl4 skill, or any combo inbetween and you could optionally say "I want skill lvl2 of this ability even though I unlocked up to lvl4" The result was a wide range of abilities that extremely customizable to each player yet all very well balanced. On top of that you had their leveling system, in which you could both gain AND lose player levels depending on your performance. The scores at the end of the round went from a bolded double negative to a bolded double positive, and matchmaking took your level into account as well as the scoring. If you did poorly against a higher level player you might still get a good score because the game expected you wouldnt do as well. On the reverse end, you could do well against lower level players and still get a bad score because the game expected you to do VERY well against low level players. The result was that anytime you saw a player with a high level above you it was actually intimidating because you knew that player had to actually be better than you currently are to reach that level. All in all, it was a fantastic game that had a wide variety of play styles and leveling and it worked out very well and always felt like a good fun challenge

[@jeffersonmcgee9560]

YO WTF THAT GRID SOUNDTRACK BROUGHT BACK THE MEMORIES great video btw

[@TheRacePig]

My favourite balance story is from return to castle wolfenstein. They had a problem where people weren't using the M1911 on the allies side, but people were using the luger on the axis side a ton. On the surface this shouldn't make any sense, the guns had literally identical stats, same damage, same fire rate, same clip size, etc. But the answer to why this was happening was pretty simple: the luger sounded more powerful, even though it wasn't. The gun's sound design was really punchy and loud, whereas the M1911 was more subdued. Goes to show you just how critical psychology is for balance.

[@Teneban]

I come from a background of Smash Bros, and something pretty interesting happened. Melee has been going strong for years, and yet it has TERRIBLE balance. Out of 26 characters, only 6 are considered viable, and only about 10 see any play at all. People do not care for the fact that Melee has poor balance - it's one of the all time greats regardless. And that lack of balance is not the reason melee is declining today - it's entirely due to the fact that Nintendo has finally managed to release another good Smash game, after 17 years. And this is a fighting game we're talking about - so you'd expect balance to be especially important, right? In a game where learning a character can take years, and you're only really expected to be able to play one or two characters at a tournament-ready level, losing the match at character selection sounds like the absolute worst thing, right? And a couple years back, fans finessed it and modded Brawl into "Project M", which was basically "Melee, but with balance patches". To this day, PM is the most balanced Smash game by quite a margin... But turns out, that might not be such a good thing after all. Learning a matchup is a tough task. It can easily take weeks or even months for some particularly odd or overbearing characters. Only having to learn 6 matchups in Melee means you quickly get to the actually interesting part of the game - the mindgames. In PM, a vast majority of players never got past the surface level interactions, because the game is simply too vast to learn. They spent years and years not truly playing against their opponent, but moreso playing against their opponent's character. They'd grind against the local scene and learn about a dozen matchups this way, but as soon as they'd compete in another region, they'd lose to a matchup they had little to no experience against. Additionally... The lack of balance patches kind of gave Melee players the message that it's entirely up to them to get good, that no help is ever coming. When it comes to competitive games, that's actually a good message to have. A lot of players (I plead guilty) would simply complain about other characters and mechanics in the hopes it would cause a nerf, rather than actively trying to learn how to counter them. Because if a move is getting nerfed in a month, why bother spending that month learning how to counter it? And there's also something to be said about character fidelity. Since fighting game players only learn a couple characters rather than the whole cast, having your one character nerfed - or worse, having it ignored for years when they desperately need a buff... That can be an absolutely crushing experience. PM promised to be balanced - it was the main reason people played it. When it failed to deliver on this promise, people would ask themselves... Then why am I even playing this? At one point, PM ceased receiving balance updates. Instead of being "melee with balance patches", it became "melee, but more balanced". This caused a pretty major shift in the players' mentality. They stopped complaining, and got to the lab. They told new players to get secondary characters to cover their bad matchups. The average player skill level in PM today is miles ahead of what it was when the game still received updates. So yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: a lot of people never question whether or not they even want a balanced game. It's simply assumed that they do. I think that it's a question that deserves to be asked.

[@LazerBlade-yp1lf]

I'll give you that one. because I know what that means pretty well

[@Eaode]

As someone else with a melee background, hard agree. Static balance is underrated. As long as it's not hopelessly broken--and 6 out of 26 characters still being a functional and amazing game proves that it's _hard_ for it to be hopelessly broken--a static balance to the game means that the metagame can actually evolve naturally (provided the game is deep enough for the players' understanding and strategy to evolve over time) Rebalancing a game constantly means that the meta is more about riding the current trends of what's OP...instead of actually putting time, effort, and innovation into figuring out to push the metagame further. You can't have the satisfying evolution of the competitive culture if the balance changes too frequently for player innovation to matter. It actually disincentivizes innovation, because in all likelihood your cool new strategy won't be relevant in a couple weeks, or it may not exist at all anymore.

[@somedudethatdoesthings8057]

@@Eaode @Teneban These two comments are EXACTLY what make Melee's 'unbalance' good sometimes.

[@joshturner9443]

As someone who loves PM this is a great comment. In part what I love about it is the balance, not that it is or should be perfect, but that all the characters are at least playable. In this case what balance ultimately means at high skill levels is not that the game is 'more fair', competitive players will pick whoever is the best to make it fair. What it means is that there are way more viable options. One of the things that makes PM great to me is that there are so many options that the meta can easily shift on its own over and over without any balance changes. So I'm with you that in a lot of ways the development ending has made the game better in the long run. (I haven't kept up with competitive pm for a while so im just making assumptions here tbh.)

[@Dragoonking17]

You're looking at the balancing topic from a completely different perspective than actual game designers. If only 6 out of 26 options the player has are viable, then it's bad balancing. But what does that mean? It means that a player who enjoys the game is forced to play one of those 6 characters if he wants to be good at the game. And especially in a game like smash bros where there are so many fan favorites, most people play this game because they want to fight with their favorite character. They will never stick to the game when they learn that they will always lose against others simply because the developer did a bad job at balancing the game and aren't able to fix their mistakes with patches. It might be more competitive than the same game with 26 viable characters, but it's also less fun for most people. And if you only lay your focus on the competitive aspect of the game, you can also play a game with only 1 single character, where there's not even a "luck" aspect when it comes to positive or negative matchups, so almost like brawl where the number of viable characters got reduced to even fewer characters than 6. But brawl counts as a very bad example for balancing and competitive play simply because of that very fact. Learning the matchup is a big part of every fighting game and can also be fun. Some matchups are way more interesting than others in a fighting game with lots of viable characters and it's also fun to play against different characters and not only play against the same 6 characters over and over. Balancing is important because you want to give players the option to play as they want and still be successful. It's not only a competitive aspect but also a fun aspect.

[@MatNightmare]

"And in team-based games we can give players alternative play styles that allow them to contribute to the team without needing to do highly skilled frontline action, like being a medic, or an engineer." As a tf2 engie main: why you gotta hurt me like that?

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

funny because medic is a frontline class

[@quotastrider801]

That thing about zangief and throws was genius, illustrates to newer players that it's not their character but them that's losing the match. A well thought out and genius video

[@randyjama]

this is some damn solid content, informative even for people like me who simply enjoy playing video games since it shows how much effort goes into making them.

[@tylerduncanson2661]

I love that “being an engineer” is supposedly easy. Uncle Dane would like a word with you.

[@Mathtriqueur]

Yeah, around the 11 minute mark, we see an engineer hitting his sentry with 0 metal XD

[@tylerduncanson2661]

@@Mathtriqueur I'm guessing he thought that since Tobjorn is basically the engineer, that the engie required as little intelligent play.

[@Xenagos]

Also maybe mercy is an easy character, but medic sure as hell isn’t.

[@tylerduncanson2661]

@@Xenagos Medic is at least simple in execution. The skill is all positioning and game sense, not the action you actually take. The only execution skill with medic is the Crusader's Crossbow, which is an optional weapon.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

I believe he had meant *conceptually* an engineer, not specifically TF2's Capital E Engineer class.

[@StarlightTrail3]

In TF2, a good sniper with a good team can't be reliably countered by a Spy and a Scout. The only real counter is a better/buffed sniper.

[@JoshuaConnorMusic]

Yeah honestly at competitive level play TF2 has never been and probably never will be balanced. Medic, sniper, demo and maybe scout are undeniably more powerful than the rest of the cast, and if it weren't for highlander no one would ever main pyro or spy.

[@StarlightTrail3]

@@JoshuaConnorMusic You forgot to put Soldier in the list there.

[@frosteryoutube1551]

Yeah, although a flanking Scout or a Spy in the back should be enough to take care of a good Sniper, if his team won't let them get in range to him in the first place, then what could possibly stop the Sniper other than a better Sniper or an Ubercharge? Luckily, Sniper is not that OP in practice because of his noticeably high skill floor, low HP, and high disadvantage at close range.

[@ananmaysahu4563]

@@frosteryoutube1551 yeah. tf2 has such high movement speed a fully revved up crouched heavy (slowest thing in the game perhaps) still moves noticeably across your screen. sniper aimbots are one of the mpost annoying things, ever, because sniper is only balanced because it is humanly impossible to deliver snipers full damage output at the fastest speed possible, which is what sniper aimbots do. I main scout and its honestly fun to have to strategise with my team to distract the enmy, run behind them, 6 straight meatshots and now they no longer have a demoman, soldier, medic or sniper.

[@portablerefrigerator4902]

@@JoshuaConnorMusic at some point balance isnt always needes so long as its still fun. And the underpowered classes are used as utilities to help with certain situations, thus giving them a place in 6's and adding to the strategy.

[@MisterJasro]

To add to that end note. "Balancing maps for multiplayer shooters." There are a lot of very interesting cases in the map balancing in the esport scene for Starcraft 1. It's an interesting case already in and of itself how long that game and its scene kept going and innovating while the game didn't see any new content in such a long time.

[@MaxNMotion]

Haven't even finished the video yet, but I want to say I love the production quality and examples used here!

[@meeperdudeify]

"engineer isn't hard" **Uncle Dane intensifies** /s I know he was talking about general engineer type characters

[@HighFiveGhost50]

I’m not a game maker, and I’m only a casual gamer, but damn I love this channel. It’s done so well.

[@e-sharp9366]

Chess is so unbalanced. Carlus Magsen always wins when I always loses. Nerf him pls.

[@pepi7404]

Chess actually favors the white player, because they can move first.

[@mydogsfacelookslikeastockp8275]

But doesn't that mean you see thier plan before they see yours?

[@Reydriel]

@@pepi7404 That's actually not quite the case. The truth is, we don't really know, Chess is so mathematically complex that no one's actually figured out if starting first is a good thing or not lol

[@georgehornsby2075]

​@@Reydriel You are right that we don't know definitively since chess is not a solved game. However the fact that white's win rate is higher than black's at every level seems to strongly suggest that the person playing white has the advantage. This holds true even for alpha zero which perhaps has the purest chess "understanding" of any entity. I think we can be pretty certain that white has the advantage, but black is ok!

[@Reydriel]

@@georgehornsby2075 I didn't know the stats so I find that intriguing. I wonder how competitive Chess balances out that advantage; perhaps via the good old rock-paper-scissors pre-game meta? :P

[@Cezkarma]

The fact that you referenced a Core-A Gaming video makes my little fighting game heart weep.

[@bruno939]

One of the reasons I have played Overwatch and watched the Overwatch league for so long is I find it fascinating to watch the balance change. Depending on when you play the game, it can either be very well balanced or completely broken (although they are usually good at quickly responding to the latter). I remember when they reworked Mercy and put resurrect on cooldown instead of her ultimate, if you played healer during that time, and didn't pick Mercy, you'd get angry messages from teammates demanding you switch to Mercy. Balance is a tough job, they had to make so many huge changes to get pro's to stop running the goats comp, and they are only now fixing the problems that those changes created.

[@agent3c]

symmetra went through an interesting journey. this is all from my personal experience with the game. i feel i know symmetra since i player her a shit ton, but other people may have had different experiences. TL;DR symmetra was really good but no one realized it until she got a huge buff. she got picked a lot more after that and it became an issue with the balance of the game. she had to be reworked to require more skill. her abilities were changed to be more versatile and less strategically costly at the cost of some of its power. i guess players never considered her to be of great use strategically. her biggest gimmick is her turrets, but they were easily destroyed by most heroes (they had 1 hp) and took a while to set up. due to having to stay still and the time it took to do, symmetra had to set up her turrets in a safe spot, which was often not in the immediate front line. they didn't do much on their own unless you spent all the time you could setting up all 6 (teammates could take advantage of the speed debuff and distraction, but remember how these are away from the front line?), and even then that work could be destroyed very quickly. her teleporter ultimate wasn't as useful as other ultimates. it was situational and depended a lot on teamwork and communication to use it effectively. (moreso than other ultimates) her primary weapon, however, more than made up for it imo. it required very little aim due to its lock on and ramped up to very high amounts of damage the more you used it in a short period. I've gone on many rampages where i get 4-6 kills and secured a win. she's capable of doing so much damage she could 1v1 a tank being healed by a teammate without so much of a scratch. Plus she's smaller (harder to hit) than a lot of other heroes and regenerates half her health. but people never played her. being targeted by a symmetra was fucking scary sometimes. the close quarters required for her to do it made aiming more difficult, and there was no getting away with the lock on. then, as was mentioned in the video, she got a secondary shield generator ultimate which was REALLY FUCKING GOOD and gave her a lot of versatility. basically it was a regenerating hp boost to pretty much everyone, and her high damage output made it easy to replace if it was destroyed. (she also got a barrier ability that was good sometimes but mostly pretty meh.) her gun got a range increase too, which i think was a bad idea. People realized that the shield gen was REALLY FUCKING GOOD and flocked to her. then they realized that her gun was also REALLY FUCKING GOOD. soon almost every team had a symmetra, and i was no longer the only one with my secrets about symmetra. tbh i was really salty about the whole thing. if they had a symmetra and you couldn't find a hard counter for her amazing gun, you lost. this naturally became an issue in the balancing system. then i didn't play overwatch for a while. when i came back her ultimate was a humongous, powerful barrier that could be used in most situations. her gun now required aim. her maximum turrets fell, but they gained a bit more hp and could be placed from a distance. it's more balanced now. it rewards skill, and gives her versatility. i await the day that my aim becomes good enough so that the nerf on her gun no longer matters TL;DR symmetra was really good but no one realized it until she got a huge buff. she got picked a lot more after that and it became an issue with the balance of the game. she had to be reworked to require more skill. her abilities were changed to be more versatile and less strategically costly at the cost of some of its power.

[@wesleylima5723]

When things get better in my life, I will honestly support you on Patreon! (I know it’s not expensive, but it does get costly when you are from another country) Your videos help me a lot, and has been giving me a lot of ideas and insights to be used in the game I’m planing. Thank you!

[@justapotota4330]

As all things should be

[@coastersplus]

He said "perfectly balanced" so many times!

I think Pokémon deserves a special mention for maintaining something resembling balance even at 800+ monsters. It's nowhere near perfect balance and there are absolutely distinct tiers (including a bunch of monsters that are not competitively viable at all, though for a lot of the lower evolution etc I believe that is fair, they don't need to all be competitively viable), but I can't think of another game with anywhere near as many possible character choices and the added complexity of so many types and them being used in teams that is still competitively playable at all.

[@psinjo]

I kind of have to disagree with your statement. Not hating on pokemon, but I believe that the presence of so many tiers is the players working at trying to make it viable. To my understanding, most pokemon are simply balanced based on total stats, with edge cases made for special combinations. The fact that the 'uber'/op (do not play) tier exists is kind of my point. I don't believe pokemon has much in the way of proper balance anymore, at any given time, a very small fraction of the creatures are actually useful if you're trying to be competitive. You can always drop down a tier and find other ones, but i don't believe that's quite the same thing. I believe the players found and made rules to make the game competitively playable, not that the game was well designed for that balance. I feel a good contrast to your point is Magic the gathering. there are... probably thousands upon thousands of cards at this point, and at least a hundred different ways to play the game, each one cutting out large chunks of cards compared to others. In any one of these different styles, there are always several cards that definitively outperform anything else. Wizards often only focuses on balancing cards for the current standard meta, throwing out some bans in other places if a single card is ridiculously outperforming every other one in certain situations. Please don't misunderstand, I love magic, but each and every style of the game has some set of cards that are ridiculously imbalanced. If they tried to keep every card balanced with every other one, it simply would not be possible to make any new cards. So i think it's fair to say that standard is fairly balanced, but if you tried to include every single card... there are obviously terrible imbalances all over. And I have never really gotten the impression that pokemon has ever really been about balance, and more just about having fun, (which is also just fine). I believe the players are more responsible for the feeling of balance in pokemon than the intent of the designers.

[@Metalcape]

TPC doesn't really care about meta or balance... Smogon tiers are balanced thanks to community efforts. The official meta (VGC) is broken as hell, every season has different rules to change things a bit, but they rarely do actual buffing/nerfing. They only release new OP pokemon from time to time who monopolize the meta in place of the older ones (just look at Incineroar). When they tried to nerf stuff (dragon type) they created an OP counter (Fairy) who is now monopolizing the meta in its place, while types like Ice need a defensive buff since gen 4. They only care about forcing players to use new gen Pokémon so they can use this as indirect advertisement.

[@phantomraviolis]

even with these detracting comments, maybe now people will understand why they dropped that ridiculous number of 800+ back down to 400 in sword & shield lol

[@AnthanKrufix]

As a pokémon fan... There is nothing competitively balanced about Pokémon. In the official VGC there is a single combination of those 800+ pokémon which even get close to the upper matches of a tournament, the best it's ever gotten was when 1-2 of those team slots had a replacement option. The unofficial Smogon ruleset gets better but there's still only a few dozen pokémon which have been community selected as 'balanced' (for standard OU matches at least), and even among that tier there's still some individuals which show up on winning teams far more than others.

[@MrPokination]

Pokemon has absolutely zero balance. The only reason it can be played at a competitive level is because the community has had to create rulesets on top of rulesets on top of tiers on top of banlists. In fact, when mega Rayquaza was release, he was so overwhelmingly powerful that an entirely new tier had to be made. If you look at the official tournaments, you'll see the same pool of maybe 10 to 15 Pokemon spread across each team... Out of a total of ~800. That's not good balance

[@Mario1080p]

Seeing the end makes me relieved to know that Splatoon 2 has ended adding in new unique weapons as it's slowing down on updates with balance patches & bug fixes.

[@hemangchauhan2864]

Grid 1 music intro 🎶👌

[@marcosxvbros9427]

Noice

[@dapedaily]

Noice

[@christianrasmussen1]

Thanks!

[@ExaPaw]

I was wondering about that and it's nice to know I did recognize it correctly, hehe

[@xepfeon]

the track is called "Vintage Warmer" by nathan boddy

[@MF_ZORO]

>How to balance >SFV >SFV RYU Poor Ryu has seen some shit with that game.

[@salvadorpascualvelez8028]

He is not that bad, but Akuma does everything he do but better

[@Hersi310]

He was top tier in season 1 and is now mid tier in season 4. He's fine. His biggest issue (along with Ken) is just that he's been kinda invalidated by Akuma doing everything they do but better lol.

[@MF_ZORO]

@@Hersi310 I'm talking about that rough as hell season 2 > era the boi had to suffer from.

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

@@salvadorpascualvelez8028 Wasn't Akuma always like that (except for being squishy)?

[@salvadorpascualvelez8028]

​@@Grogeous_Maximus Yes more or less , but in SF5 Akuma is not that squishy, has better normals overall, more damage and better set up/mix up potential than Ryu. You can argue than Ryu fireballs are better but fireballs serve as poking tool in this game more than zoning, so Akuma´s fireball is just as good at the end.

[@nrxia]

My introduction to imbalance was the pistol in Halo 1. I loved that thing.

[@montylemon9445]

yt Me: alright you guys can use vehicles and I'll go pistol only to make this fair The other team: sure man thanks

[@marscaleb]

Bungie used to have a habit of making OP from common weapons. I remember the shotgun in Marathon 2 would put the ones from un-patched Modern Warfare 2 to shame.

[@BronzeAgePepper]

@@marscaleb you're right actually. the "noob combo" in Halo 2 and the DMR in Halo Reach come to mind for me

[@Madhattersinjeans]

I played against people who were way more experienced so I started using the rocket launcher. It didn't help much but it scared the crap out of them when I showed up at point blank with it. Interesting dynamic.

[@Peluceus]

In Wolfenstein Enemy Territory, one of the SMG's was begged to be nerfed because it was considered OP but then they just removed the bass from the SMG firing sound and it was all good

[@brunoschwartz1325]

"If Zangief couldn't block, he would be unnusable" Iron Zangief from MVC1: Hold my vodka

[@readyforlol]

Oof. 14:06 You're gonna make enemies with that statement saying medics and engineers require less "skilled frontline actions" than other classes. :p

[@HereTakeAFlower]

Torbjorn's gameplay is 75% emoting on the payload

[@kylerivera3470]

If you're playing a medic or engineer on the front lines then you are doing something wrong (or the situation is just really desperate). They are characters better played when hiding behind the front line fighters so of course they would require fewer "skilled front line actions" since they would require fewer front line actions n the first place. Of course, if you actually do play them on the front lines the required skill level would increase, probably even over the other characters, but, as I said before, that shouldn't really be happening in the first place.

[@missfire9480]

Lower Skill Floor higher skill cieling. The skill expression in a good TF2 Enginner is just as high as a good solider. A medic that keeps their team alive wont notice them unless in hind sight.

[@Spartan-sz7km]

@@missfire9480 Nah as a pyro that has a very aggressive/passive playstyle, kind of bait and switch where I kite damage and do as much as possible, forcing them to enter disadvantageous situations where I can secure the kill, a good medic lets me do so much more than a bad/average medic

[@trevward5508]

Core-A Gamung is phenomenal. Glad he was mentioned. Also, loved seeing a wide variety of fighting games!

[@liquidgeorge]

Nothing is more balanced than having a FarSight XR-20 in Perfect Dark multiplayer on N64.

[@Supersonic]

you clearly forgot about proximity pinball, the holy grail of balance

[@Ag3nt0fCha0s]

I'd rather fight a human packing an XR20 than speedsims...

[@gnammyhamster9554]

"Underpowered *shows Ganondorf*" Why is he showing Ganon- "Overpowered *shows Meta Knight*" Ooohhhhh

[@G-DORA]

ARMS is slept on so much, I feel like it's the perfect fighter game, every character has the same sort of movement logic but it's still unique enough to be fun, no character is marginally ahead of another and no character is underpowered, it's so good. Just look at pro level match's, they get pretty intense. Unfortunately the gameplay was just too different and pretty scary at release and the players dropped off really quickly.

[@quentinarchpomple-bigginsw352]

12:50 That doesn't necessarily sound like a psychological phenomenon, could it not be the case that more skilled players were more likely to see the patch note and decide to stop playing that character? (Disclaimer: I have never played LoL) Also, the other comments here are really interesting

[@liamf2300]

But the win rate went down, so people playing that character actually played worse even though it was exactly the same

[@quentinarchpomple-bigginsw352]

@@liamf2300 Not sure that's necessarily true - my point is that we might be looking at a different set of people. The statistics might be telling us more about who decided to keep playing the character, rather than whether the skill of those players somehow changed. Both of those could produce the observed trend (as far as I can tell)

[@VanK782]

@@quentinarchpomple-bigginsw352 Another possibility is that the opponents thought the character was weaker so they engaged in more aggressive gameplay

[@Harith01x]

@@quentinarchpomple-bigginsw352 ahh I see, so you're saying the majority of better players stopped playing the character would also be the case why the pick rates and win rates went down (eventhough no nerf was implemented). I agree, and I feel like "psychology" sounds a bit inappropriate despite the use of it is true. A word that I can thought of for this thing is "public perception". We are either consciously or unconsciously agree on a sentiment that others may feel, and others also agree on the sentiment that other people, thus a chain occurs and suddenly someone believe that changes have been made, for example, a hero is now nerfed and worse in performance eventhough not much or nothing was changed.

[@overlordchemm3705]

This video gives me flashbacks to all the “advanced” characters that dominated the leaderboards and lobbies in CTR:NF. It wasn’t an easy time to be a Ripper Roo main lmao.

[@nvrndingsmmr]

I appreciate the use of the Racedriver: Grid menu music. Sweet choice.

[@patrikbergum5645]

I knew I wasn't the only instantly recognizing

[@TheRighteousDawn]

Holy shit that's what it's from! I was thinking Gran Turismo hahaha

[@jonniboye6399]

I was surprised to hear so much detailed information about League. I don't think I've seen another GMTK video mention it. Pretty cool he got to talk to a dev about it. Also a nice switch-up video instead of critiquing games and mentioning how they should do things differently, it explains the process these games go through in their attempts to balance games. I wish there had been a shout out to the classic Age of Empires series. I always liked the fact that not only did you have certain strategies counter each other (rush/defense/economy) but you also had counters between the individual units as well (pikemen/cavalry/archers/infantry/siege/etc). You had to think about each civilization and their various strengths and weaknesses both in terms of overall strategy and unit preference/bonuses, which got even more complicated as you added more civilizations to each game, not to mention the numerous different map types that made certain strategies better or worse.

[@JucheJohn]

I remember Smash Bros Melee where Yoshi was, for the longest time, considered unviable for tournaments until one day a Yoshi main won a tournament saying that he's not unviable but just has an extremely high skill ceiling