Crazy Experiment! Use a Relay as a Guitar Pickup

[@Drunken_Hamster]

There's a guy called heavymetalATC here on youtube who tests pickup ideas and designs, and one of the things he tested is Neodymium magnets. He found that they give an overwhelming bass response instead of the parroted "ice pick highs" and that they also have similar, if not better sustain than alnicos. Of course, the best way to balance them is to underwind the pickup compared to alnico, and that then gives you a really clear, crisp, broad response overall.

[@MarkGutierrez]

Oh yeah, HeavymetalATC is rad. I love his channel.

[@iunnox666]

Never liked the sound of pickups with strong magnets and low winds. Also pulls on the strings more, doesn't make much sense that it would have more sustain unless it's just a perceived thing due to hotter output or more bass response.

[@iridios6127]

​@@iunnox666 It`s a myth.

[@iunnox666]

@@iridios6127 Magnetic damping is a myth?

[@iridios6127]

@@iunnox666 Yep. No one can put a big enough magnet in a guitar, to make it have noticeable effect. It will be weigh more, than the entire guitar. Also, no one will listen to music where each note lasts more than 10 seconds. 😉

[@codelicious6590]

Brushless motors are CHOCK-full of coils!!! I busted open a fan motor and used half of the armature as a pickup. a coil of copper around a magnetic polepiece, thats all ya need!

[@stanleydenning]

These 12-volt relays are used a lot in the 1970s and 80s cars snd can be had for practically free at your local wrecking yard.

[@MarkGutierrez]

That's a great suggestion.. I just did a google search and there are a few salvage yards here in Austin. But I'd be too shy to step foot in them. Thanks for the idea.

[@stanleydenning]

@@MarkGutierrez There is nothing embarrassing or odd about going to a wrecking yard. Sometimes it's the only way to get hard to find replacement parts for older cars. For mechanics, it's a cool place to hang out. 👍

[@ashscott6068]

There really is no debate on the "tonal qualities" of different types of magnets. It's only the strength of the field and the shape of the field that matter. The material has ZERO affect on tone. A magnetic field is a magnetic field. They don't come in different flavours. Obviously the magnets affect tone, but only in that the shape, size and strength of the magnet, affects the shape size and strength of the magnetic field. Neodymium can be used just fine. But you have to design the pickup around that, like you should be with any other type of magnet. The real reason the magnet affects tone, is that it affects output. So if you want to compensate for that, you have to change the specs of the coil. And THAT affects tone. If you're getting the same output from fewer windings, there is less capacitance bleeding off highs. If the sound is too harsh, you'd have to scatter the winding more. You can make a pickup with any magnet have the exact same output and frequency response as a pickup with any other, pretty much.

[@jeffro.]

@ashscott6068: Sorry to interrupt your rant ... You're partially correct, at least about "a magnet field is a magnetic field," but the rest is nonsense. There is readily available data on modelling a pickup, not just pickups, but the entire circuit, including the cable, all the way to the amp input. There is very little capacitance in ANY and ALL of it. The chief variable, the thing that changed the most, is inductance. A pickup is a coil, after all, and that, coupled with resistance & capacitance, creates a low pass filter that "chokes" off the high frequencies. (That's WHY a coil is called a "choke") So, go learn some electronics before your next tirade. Sorry to disappoint.

[@Eau1983]

Great Video, Mark! You're on your way to making a Hexaphonic Pickup system. If you do, I suggest utilizing the wiring topology of the PS/2 standard for personal computers. They have M/F jacks ready to go and have a core of six leads. This way, you don't have crazy wires going to and from your modified guitar and your 6 TS-F breakout box. How much gain are you using after your magnetic relay pickup?

[@rauschguitars]

Pffft, we all know it can only sound good if you use a vintage, oil-filled, cloth covered tone relay! I've been very curious about alternate pickup construction, especially getting out of the "route box", as you say. Nicely done!

[@MarkGutierrez]

LOL. Don't tempt me, I'll build one.

[@666pinkster]

It's only a magnet while the juice is applied an electromagnet is basically just a coil of wire around an iron core when you apply voltage to it it creates a magnetic field

[@Robothut]

For a higher coil resistance just use a higher voltage relay as it will have more windings. Also, AC relays will have a different sound than DC relay coils since the coils also work as inductors. A relay coil can make for a good string driver in a sustainer circuit also. Just use a lower voltage relay so the driver circuit can drive the coil better. Thank you for sharing with us.

[@iridios6127]

With +- 100-200% range of coil matching sound be the same. No matter which type of relay used. Aside of loudness.

[@RCAvhstape]

There is a woman on TalkBass who wound her own bass pickups for a build she was making. She went the whole nine yards with bobbins and coil wire, made a winding device with a counter that tracks each rotation so she could wind each pickup the same, it was very cool but it was a lot of work, at least up front to set it all up. I bet with a setup like that one could use it to make different kinds of pickups. For someone without as much patience like me, though, your idea here is cool. I like repurposing stuff like this and I agree the industrial look of it is appealing.

[@calinguga]

i used a toaster electromagnet once in a one string plank bass guitar i made in an afternoon. works just fine. i've also wound about a dozen "proper" pickups with 42 gauge wire and all. they work just fine as well. do you know jim lill's videos on tone? he hasn't done one on pickups yet but the exact same principle applies, it's all much less fussy than people in the business make it seem.

[@iridios6127]

Apparently, she not the smartest in the pack. A small difference in turns - is not important.

[@RCAvhstape]

@@iridios6127 She builds beautiful basses, wood, finish, electronics, and all, and they sound great. So she's certainly bright enough.

[@Shuron1985]

Cool!

[@fernandomartinez2610]

Hi, I was very intrigued by your video on this approach. I'm an electric guitar builder and was also interested in exploring beyond the current technology to give more options in sound from pickups. This like magnetic field control and individual pickup arrangements as you suggested. The thought of having single string pickups be customized in their location on the guitar could open up new possibilities rather than just bridge and neck placement. Together with a string eq mixer combo could open up a whole new approach. thanks

[@iridios6127]

It will be useless overengeenering.

[@jackycoudray6029]

That's clever ! I may try it, I have a Big box of this thingies.

[@barrychristian4050]

Cool idea, not sure what gear, gadgets and gizmos you were using but had a very Pink Floyd feel to it, all from 1 string 👍

[@MarkGutierrez]

Hi Barry, I was running the single string through a few custom patches on the LIne 6 Helix.

[@tomelliott2264]

I can't wait to see a 6 string with those pickups.

[@mattfink9317]

This is a great idea/experiment. This would be great for my upright bass.

[@woooji]

is it possible to make a pickup for a six-string guitar by arranging the coils in a checkerboard pattern?) that would be interesting to watch!

[@CeresKLee]

Listening to demo make wanna scream LOOVVVVEEEE!!!! I wanna make a hexaphonic guitar with these.

[@choimdachoim9491]

I've seen boards with channels like that in Home Depot beneath stacks of plywood, boards, drywall. They are spacers and the groove is for the metal banding that holds each stack together and the spacers allow a forklift to slide its blades between the stacks to pick them up and move them. Oh...and thanks for asking: love da background music.

[@GilbertPot1971]

Why doesn't this channel have more views? ..Once again a brilliant video...thanks for sharing!

[@MarkGutierrez]

Thanks for watching Gilbert!

[@dartthewarrior]

This would work really well for stringed instruments with extremely convex finger boards / bridges - e.g.: stand up double basses, cellos, etc.!

[@wantanmee8716]

I was thinking about the possibility of linear response pickups across the whole audible frequency. The acoustic characteristic can then be shaped through softwares modelling. There is a company by the name Cycfi that already make these linear response pickups and it turn out to be isolated individual coil as you describe here. With low impedance too. I guess the relay coil should also have fairly low impedance.

[@MarkGutierrez]

I've been following Cycfi for awhile now. I've seen a few Strandbergs with the Nu Series pickups. Their isolated coils are well designed.

[@sciexp]

Thanks for sharing this... Around 14th minute you get something close to the string... Is this really an ebow? Or is a homemade diy ebow?

[@JamesFord-g5e]

Pretty good idea good for old sci fyi movie sound effects

[@jimintaos]

As you were demonstrating this very clever idea I happened to recall the solenoid water valves that are in washing machines, dishwashers and ice makers. I think I have a few of them around and this is a worthwhile cause for experimentation. Thanks.

[@TheM00ndawg]

ok. hear me out, a hexagonal design of this single string pickups, covering basically the entire fretboard under the strings. but then, the guitar randomly switches through them as your playing.

[@MarkGutierrez]

Mind blown!

[@Bruisewillies]

Just what I needed to see! I'm drawing up a lap steel that would also incorporate a single, fretted bass string and wanted to put together a single pole pickup, which is when I came across this. Watched it at work then headed straight to the stores. 24vdc relays had 0.6k, 230v 9k.....110v.....4k perfect......And free!

[@HostilePride]

Interesting video! Just a thought, you could design a small circular circuit board fairly easily that would allow you to quickly make the bobbin only version. It could have 2 small slots in the outside that lead to large pads to easily solder the fine wire to, and then tracks to each pad for the pickups wires. Being 2 wires, this would even make it easy if you wanted to use shielded wire (Hot on the internal wire, ground on the shield), makes your multi-pickup idea fairly compact. Getting a large grid of something so small manufactured and sent to you would be really cheap, so the price per piece would be extremely low. But maybe i'm just overengineering things bahaha.

[@MarkGutierrez]

That is a great idea. I could knock a pcb design out pretty fast. Thanks!

[@StevDoesBigJumps]

The neodymium circlejerk is just that. You can make great pickups with any kind of magnet, you just need the size the magnet and adjust the pickup height after it's magnetic strength.

[@iunnox666]

Yep. Magnet type doesn't really affect the tone much. It has more to do with whether you're using pole pieces or a bar magnet with slugs.

[@hardcoreGISH]

Kind of reminds me of a alumitone

[@bigbasil1908]

I have a few relays that I got from some old electrical circuitboard which I found/stole from an urban explore in some old derelict factory. Interesting that you used a relay as a pickup.

[@simonlinser8286]

dude you just snitched on yourself

[@bigbasil1908]

@@simonlinser8286 What are they gonna do, arrest me for taking something from a derelict building that no longer exists? lol

[@larsfrosznielsen3536]

Hi there, I'm so thrilled to experience your channel. I love to experiment on musical instruments, so this is a great inspiration for me. Thanks a lot Mark

[@MarkGutierrez]

Thank you so much!

[@larsfrosznielsen3536]

@@MarkGutierrez 🙏You are very welcome🙏

[@seanhayes2998]

I think one of the potential uses for this is positioning a number of them along a string to pickup the various harmonics and blend them together in different mixes. Bonus points to put the sum through a state variable filter ( resonant low pass ) to “voice” the output. Very interesting.

[@athmaid]

You might wanna check out what Cycfi is doing

[@seanhayes2998]

@@athmaid I had a quick look and seems interesting, depending on the price, but not quite what I was thinking unless there’s a way to daisy chain their single pickup module.

[@markmccawley2526]

2 elements? Retro headless guitar ala silvertone?? probably not :(

[@MarkGutierrez]

LOL

[@SWHBOYCE]

11:43 Love the new soundtrack for the remake of 'Repo Man"....very cool ! ..Thanks !! ( 2.. , the new Kodo ( is that what they call 'em ? ) " Make instruments !...not war !!

[@theluthiersapprentice3309]

Some years ago I built an “electric cello” from an old strat copy by pulling out the frets and covering the fretboard with epoxy. Similar to what you did, I made a pickup from surplus 12 volt relay coils wired in series and potted in casting resin. No controls...straight to the output jack: the pickup worked quite well. But I could not get used to playing tuned in fifths... I am currently working on a new project which is a 5 string multiscale bass. I will use again the relay coil-as-pickup idea. However, this time each string will have its own independent pickup. I bought ten 24vdc pcb-mount relays off aliexpress for $15, free shipping. I got the 24vdc coils because the spec sheet quotes the coil resistance as 1.3k vs 275 ohm for the 12vdc coil. I will use an IC-based mixer to combine the outputs. Have not decided on onboard or offboard EQ. I subbed your channel so I can see where you go with this. Cheers and well done!

[@MarkGutierrez]

I'm interested in to see where you go with it. Specifically with the IC-based mixer. Keep me updated.

[@antixdobrasil]

Independent pickups is the best idea I can think of... If you're using a guitar, you can plug an old octave into the lower string and never worry about pitch tracking

[@jonbarnett9363]

With single string pickups, you could even have them mobile...able to slide to different positions...totally customizable pickup shapes. So fun!

[@nto-steve]

Hi I've been thinking about doing this for a little while. As an engineer with a good knowledge of electronics I could never understand the idea of winding all the pole pieces in one winding. In fact I always thought they were individual until recently which to me would make sense. I was looking at 110v coil relays somewhat smaller than the one you show, they would easily fit side by side on a 6 string if required and have a higher number of windings/resistance. I also thought of using a very small neodymium on the bottom. The relay slug is just UN-magnetized ferrous metal or the relay would be always on. Some also have a diode across the coil which should be removed. Individual gain summing amp was also in my list of things to try, maybe very little to no gain so traditional amps etc. can still be used. Keep up the good work, can't wait to see the next developments.

[@MarkGutierrez]

Wow. So many good ideas in this comment. Thanks for watching.

[@krystoffoltyn1]

There actually exist pickups that have one winding per string, but it's obviously harder to make the coils the same, and also there is the question of having them in series or parallel, but either one of those aren't great. So, to have unified windings for every string and not having to connect individual coils, the singular winding is used. Also, less wire is used, although the difference isn't that big.

[@cheapskate8656]

Good idea Mark.

[@MeatballCereal]

Cool diy project. Round/cylindrical guitar pickups are really nothing new. EMG makes them for the NS electric upright basses, and Atlansia guitars of Japan has been making & using them since at least the 1980's. Open up a Wal multi-coil pickup and you'll see a pair of cylindrical pickups per string under the square pickup shell. Ernie Ball uses neo magnets in their pickups, as does Nordstrand in the pickups they make for Dingwall.

[@ANAcollectif]

Thinking out of the box is excellent , i will try something for my next diy pickup 🙂

[@MalachiHealey]

Very cool ideas. Could you potentially wire these with all kinds of switches to put seperate strings in Series/Parallel and In/Out Phase too? I'm going to be designing another 3d printed guitar, and am very seriously looking into these as an option.

[@StefanPowell]

Nice hack. I will def try this for building an electroduochord.

[@anthonyb5279]

I use Nd in pickups some times sounds real good. If you don't like it don't use Nd. BUT not every guitar has to emulate some old highly specific year Telli ..."everything else is just wrong". I have used Nd to make pickups that are so hot I can barrie them under the face or in the neck and you can still get all the gain you need. If you are actually debating this you'r just a narcissistic twat, it's NOT your guitar it does not matter play what you like.

[@bulkvanderhuge9006]

It'd be nice to be able to make a replacement hexaphonic pickup for the Roland GK2A

[@freednighthawk]

I'm gonna have to try this. I know I've got some relays with failed contacts out in my tool box.

[@russellzauner]

Roland made tiny humbuckers on their synth pickups so I think you'll be okay; there are patents published if you are interested in taking a peek at the way they made them.

[@Professorvapes]

great vid

[@picksalot1]

Very cool "experiment." Sounds great, and the "bamboo transition flooring" looks remarkably like a fretboard. 🤔

[@anthonyludington8320]

The last part about your observations on "design language" is really interesting. I love your open mind. Great video!

[@drogen9987]

But how you make such eerie tones with the string. Is the output so high that it only needs to be touched to make the drone sound?

[@calinguga]

are you talking about the e-bow?

[@sc0or]

It sounds surprisingly clear and pleasant. Kind of fast and absolutely not dry. Very interesting.

[@CsawIvu]

WOW!!!! Brother...you are absolutely fascinating, as you share your depth of thought, and breadth of actions. You mentioned "being in a box"!!! This is a mantra for me, in that I am doing all I can to alter mindsets to not accept being misguided to "remain inside a box systematically chosen for us all"! Yes, this is a bit off from the superb approach you have considered for an individualized string pickup but.....in a way, they are indeed very similar. My friend...I will watch your work very closely, as I am very receptive to study your thoughts, and methods towards EXPANSION!!! Thank You Very Much 🖖🏼

[@MarkGutierrez]

Thanks for the awesome comment. And thanks for watching.

[@bigbasil1908]

The metal bar in the relay is not magnetic. It becomes magnetic when electricity is passed through the coil on the relay, which then closes the circuit. So basically it's the same sort of arrangement as a guitar pickup

[@ericdavis1438]

This process is how the coolest stuff gets developed. Keep it up Mark!

[@contentdestroyer8696]

amazing djent stick

[@xCr00k3Dx]

The true use for this

[@Projacked1]

Twin Peaks sound...very cool !

[@xhibitionism]

Amazing video, Thank you.

[@fourspiralarms]

This was great, thanks for sharing this. The sound is really indistinguishable from a full on guitar. Props for finding the harmonics and bringing out the game changing ebow! Btw, what synths/plugins did you use for the music in the beginning? I love that high pitched boards of Canada style patch you had going on

[@MarkGutierrez]

I totally cheated with the harmonics. I put some tape on the side of the instrument to tell me where the "frets" were located. That music in the beginning was made with the Native Instruments Maschine and the Analog Dreams and Ethereal Earth synths. I export the basic scenes then import them into Ableton for arrangement and automation. My workflow is pretty fast now to create KZbin background music.

[@jesperskovjuul2170]

I see a heavy metal didley bow in my future :D I have a ton of relays lying around, one is bound to work. What is that grey doodad you used to keep sustain? That sounded awesome. Love you untraditional work, keep it coming!

[@MarkGutierrez]

The grey doodad was an eBow guitar sustainer.

[@benhjertmann]

You sir, good show! I build original instruments in Just Intonation and this is exactly what I need! Can anyone point me to resources that explain the repercussions of either daisy-chaining several of these or summing them to one output? The separate output is also useful but I've dreamt up instruments with 18+ strings and would want to have one output. Keep up the great work. It's these little elements and design language that are essential for forging new directions in instrument-building!

[@alabalaportocala29]

Look up “op amp mixer circuit”. You can also use the op amp as a booster or as a filter. It’s fairly easy but takes getting used to

[@kthornbloom]

yes! more weird guitar stuff! 👏

[@lpluva1]

Do you imagine if you used the 24v instead of the 12v the output would be twice as much?

[@MarkGutierrez]

I imagine that if the coil is bigger on the 24v and there are more windings, then there would be more output.

[@CasualCheetah]

Awesome experiment! I've been trying to do this myself for a DIY electric cello project that I need four indepented pickups for, but I can't figure out the best way to remove a coil from the metal housing of an electromagnetic relay. Any tips for how to take the slug out? I've also tried looking for relay coils as separate parts or relays that are easier to dismantle, but haven't had any luck with that.

[@Medievalfan94]

at this point it is most likely easier for you to wind your own coils. There are plenty of tutorials on winding guitar pickups on youtube. You can adapt that knowledge for your own aplication :)

[@thirteenthnile3536]

If you're still working on this, you might check out a video Tim Sway did recently where he built a unit with four independent pickups for a stand-up base.

[@realitystudioscustomshop]

no stone unturned! love this exploration of new ways of creating electric guitars, keep at it, loving every stage of your work

[@MarkGutierrez]

This is the kind of stuff I have the most fun doing. This idea in particular, I'll be expanding on in a few more vids.Thanks for watching!

[@realitystudioscustomshop]

@@MarkGutierrez glad to hear it, I'm looking forward to more of the same 😁

[@philiprilinger9256]

It would be interesting to know what level of ac voltage your coil setup is generating in your 1 string guitar. Do these sort of pickups generate millivolts or is it closer to volts when the string is vibrating above the pickup ?

[@iridios6127]

Attack up to a 1-2 volts, sustain - up to 100-200 mV.

[@SG-js2qn]

Very 70s to my ears.

[@iridios6127]

It`s a bunch of effects. 😉

[@Gabirell]

👏👏👏👏

[@AntonioCavicchioni]

It sounds pretty good!

[@louisclark9685]

Is it the ferrous metal in the string that lets the pickup "hear" the magnetic field? Would the pickup work if it was next to, say, a thin vibrating flat iron sheet?

[@MarkGutierrez]

Ferrous material is necessary for sure. The pickup actually temporarily magnetizes the string and detects changes in the magnetic flux. An iron sheet is interesting. I don't think it would oscillate similar to a string. I've seen artists attach piezo pickups to metal sheets. Hang the sheets from trees and let the wind play them. Great results with piezos.

[@Bruisewillies]

Would be interesting to run an input signal through an exciter speaker into the steel sheet, then a pickup output.

[@fatcatnordleadx]

totally agree .

[@martysradioshow5979]

wow nice Expeeiment

[@jackrorystaunton4557]

e-Bow made my day :D

[@johnpetyo1216]

Does anyone know what that white u shaped box with the blue led is he was holding over the string?

[@MarkGutierrez]

It's an eBow

[@bigdave6390]

It was an E bow. Really great little tool.

[@afreezaphorogiancossack2194]

Hey Mark! I was just looking for a way to do this so I can use strings to trigger drums. I think I'm going to have to try using the relays. This is perfect!

[@NathanKozyra]

In most cases, that's a lot easier. You can also buy single pickups (intended for one-string instruments) for ~ $5-$8 a piece. Same idea, but less disassembly. But for triggering drums, you generally don't need independent values; the discrete inputs are probably better suited by buttons or a softpot if you want to still have the "string" concept. Read the values into any cheapo microcontroller and send output as 5v or MIDI. The problem with EM/coil pickups, generally, is noise. A 6-string instrument is harder to discern singular values (pitch/position) because there's a lot of bleed-through, and guitar strings are not pure sine waves, so it's hard to FFT out what you want. Hexaphonic pickups are intended to isolate string->pickup, but they're expensive and still don't really isolate.

[@afreezaphorogiancossack2194]

@@NathanKozyra Wow, what a great response. Question: when you say bleed-through you are referring to signals from other strings? My thought, BTW, is to have six strings all physically isolated from each other, no frets or anything, just one tone each, and strike them with little metal rods to emulate striking a drum. I feel like the tension on a string is a lot like the tension on a drum head and that may lend itself. I can even have separate inputs on the mixer for each string if I want. So I'm hoping I can cancel out the difficulties with the pickups that you outline above.

[@NathanKozyra]

@@afreezaphorogiancossack2194 Yes, noise with the other strings is part of the problem. The other problem is the natural harmonics of a string (or most sounds on earth). You'll never get a single oscillation out of a physical sound. Metal strings have a lot more harmonics than say nylon strings. I don't think your method of tapping/plucking will matter all that much compared to the type of string, its harmonics, and the resonance of other strings. Of course, nylon strings don't work with magnets :) but you can also use piezos as microphones, which work purely on vibration. As you can imagine that provides additional challenges. The configurations shown at the end of this video are close to what I'm attempting currently (have been working on this a few years), but specifically staggering 6 independent coil pickups. They look like this: x_____ ____x_ __x___ ___x__ _x____ _____x This still produces a lot of noise. I purchased 6 single-string pickups, but also considered buying 6 traditional pickups and removing 5 of the 6 coils per. The price of cheap pickups is such that you can choose whatever makes the most sense. There are other options, but they're harder to work with. Optical sensors (edit: look for "through beam") can envelope the string and the break in the light and sensor produces a similar response. They require more power, though, so 6 of them might be tough. They're also hard to fit on a guitar, but could work on a 4-string/bass instrument.

[@afreezaphorogiancossack2194]

@@NathanKozyra Okay, well as I mentioned my intent is really more like a hammered dulcimer with electric pickups, which will drive a noisemaker of some sort via audio to MIDI, probably. I think I could probably use filters of some sort, too. And after browsing ebay for a while it has occurred to me there is no real reason I need to use a single string pickup. I mean I can just get some cheap humbucker style pickups and go with it, no need for me to break into the science of building pickups right now. I am currently seeing some very nice single string pickups for about $12 each, and several cheap looking but passable regular humbuckers for less. Thanks for all your great advice! Oh, I have been meaning to ask, what size magnets do you use in your video? I might look into getting some of those too. Thx!

[@NathanKozyra]

@@afreezaphorogiancossack2194 this isn't my video but you can use any magnet to create a pickup, they're pretty simple. Good luck with the project, this is a harder task than a lot of electronics projects because of the nature of physical sounds represented in signals. My project is going on six months and I'm still tinkering

[@DougHinVA]

artificial non-drum track and no expertise... skip it.