Marking Out Basics: Don't fight the fit!

[@BischBaschBosch]

Love that you offer a solid catalogue of sound advice to those starting out or trying something new Peter. Measuring all marks from the same reference edge is something I always try to pass on.👍

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Cheers Bud! Yeah, I've been caught out a couple of times thinking that everything was perfect, only to find there was a slight discrepancy! TG for the Domino mid-setting! 👍

[@MichaelAlderete]

Am I wrong in thinking that, when using the Domino’s edge pins you’re effectively referencing from different edges? Which is fine if you’ve cut your pieces identically, but would fail in the melamine-faced example here, where you deliberately cut short the one piece? (I imagine if I used a Domino a few times, I’d understand how to manage that, but it’s an expensive tool I haven’t (yet?) been able to justify…)

[@BischBaschBosch]

@@MichaelAlderete you're right but, the domino allows you to cut a wider slot for the tenon so kinda negates any discrepancy. Dowels are a different story. They have to be bang on.

[@MichaelAlderete]

@@BischBaschBosch That's what I was figuring, based on Peter's comment about cutting tight on one piece, and loose on the other. Alas, what I have today are dowel jigs. I suppose the discipline of getting it bang on will serve me well, even if I progress to other tools later. :-) It's just that I am so damn slow with everything...

[@ralf-de]

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I now finally know why I need three rulers 🙂

[@nickdawson9270]

It’s great to return to basics. Face side and face edge was taught to me in year 7 woodwork at high school. That was 60 years ago. Good to be reminded so clearly of the problem with measuring from both ends. Also that you need more than one slide square .... at least two pairs!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

I had ‘face side and edge’ drummed into me at school too! 👍

[@trickiejohn]

It’s been over 50 years since I last made a cabinet, currently they are on my work program. Thanks for reminding me of the stuff, I had forgotten (I remembered marking the facing surfaces, but no more 😮)

[@stevetillman6921]

Back to basics. Brilliant. Never get bored Peter.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@PaulWoodJatobaFilms]

Nicely done, Peter, an excellent master class in cabinetry! Very clear and simple system for us to practice. Thanks!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! 👍🙌

[@JayVarner]

The consistent edge reference is so helpful. Thanks

[@TheBoffmeister]

You must have heard my swearing last week when I made my first cabinets to go under my budget MFT and got the centre biscuit not quite centre so one hole didn't line up with the biscuit! Thanks for all your vids - very informative and easy to follow.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Oh no! I guess I should have posted this earlier! 😂👍

[@dougsaunders8109]

Nicely explained Peter as usual. Marking from one side makes sense for sure. Making four pieces of wood square with matching pairs is definitely a skill. Once mastered any cabinet is a possible

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Absolutely! 👍

[@anthonybowyer1874]

Watching the joinery master at work is pure bliss.....great video as always.😃

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@kevinthomson6324]

I use a dowel max jig so I started out doing the check marks. Then added a 1-1 2-2 3-3 4-4 marking all the joining edges so all the same corners end up together as it comes together. Then after drilling the dowels in the wrong spot a couple times. I’ve added the step of adding a D on the face or edge where the dowel holes are to be drilled. Since starting that never had an issue. Also add a P when I’m adding pocket hole screws to the same cabinet which in a lot of cases really speeds up assembly as no need for clamps and the dowels keep everything perfectly aligned.

[@andyc972]

Thanks Peter, it seems so obvious, but it's so easy to mess this up, so the fact that you share your hard won practical experience is much appreciated, I have a cabinet build coming up so will try this method for myself !

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! Let me know how it goes! 👍

[@Cobra1-d8j]

Just a tip.. I use coloured stickers, Red for Right ,and, Blue for left. Stickers at tops of pieces ,and, to the front side to depict front, top , left , right ,,simples. Unless of course you run out of stickers. Small round are sold in 200,s to 1000s , hope this helps!!😮

[@StrawbyteWorkshop]

I spent days as a youngster marking-up joinery for my dad and followed a very similar method that he'd been taught by his grandfather. Even though we're using machines these days, being organised is key. Great vid.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Cheers Karl! Once learned, never forgotten! 👍

[@StrawbyteWorkshop]

@@10MinuteWorkshop Ha Ha, yes but ironically the one of the two times I've featured making a cabinet on my channel the marking-out was all over the place.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

@@StrawbyteWorkshop 😂 I'm sure it turned out fine in the end! 👍

[@cuebj]

And the extra little bit of good practice you did: pencil held almost flat to the MDF surface so it doesn't press in and make a groove that will show up when painted. Ah - you did go onto to mention how best to use pencils, tape, and markers

[@stevepartridge1433]

Thank you for this great advice - currently making alcove cabinets, after watching this, the second one will be more straightforward than my first.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@techieboy333]

Perfect timing. I'm going to try and make a bridging unit between two very tall kitchen cabinets this weekend and this is perfect. I find my biggest struggle is marking out consistently (and cutting to the mark/line) to end up with what I want and the tip about always measuring from the same edge may well explain some of my near misses. Thank you!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Sounds great! 👍

[@MRGAMEOVER316]

Hi Peter,great video as always.Just wanted to add my two pence worth as regards to marking up side pieces.For me it’s sufficient enough to mark L & R and don’t bother marking T or top,because if you have the board the wrong way up the letters would be the wrong way up,I hope this helps others,keep up the great work.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

It’s the belt and braces approach, but I agree - like I said at the start, I marked the L and R with a couple of arrows and crack on. But if you’re not building cabinets every day then the extra step takes no time at all and gives an easy visual reference. 👍

[@MCsCreations]

Really excellent system, Peter! 😃 Thanks a bunch for the tutorial and all the info! Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks, you too! 👍

[@tc9148]

Just fabulous. Love seeing your detailed marking techniques. Have missed these how-to videos from you. Please do more and do one on domino assembly of these cabinets.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! There's a Domino Basics video coming along, and yes, I'll be using this cabinet as the example. 👍

[@AshFromEarth]

So in essence, use one face as a reference so that any errors will be at the back and not and the visible side of the cabinet? Good tip, thanks! Will keep that in mind for sure.

[@DesandSam]

Forgive me of I've misunderstood here, Peter, but didn't you throw in a gotcha, there? Initially you advocate marking the mortice locations by measuring them all from the same edge. But then you used the pins on the domino to locate the mortises rather than measured markings. Surely, that means one mortise is cut relative to one edge, but the other mortise is cut relative to the opposite edge - exactly the practise you are advising against. Nb, I appreciate you mentioned using the middle setting (10:58) on the domino, which provides the "wiggle room" for misaligned mortises. However, the message of measuring from the same edge is loud and clear and thank you for setting us on the right path !

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

I’m pretty sure I say that I’ve measured and cut that final carcass very carefully - so I’m 100% sure that the sides of the carcass are identical - and as you noted, I’m also using the mid-setting on the Domino that really does give +/- a couple of mm of wiggle room. So the story I’m telling here is that referencing off the same edge is absolutely best practice, but after a couple on decades of experience, a few thousand cabinets, combined with some unique and costly power tools, you’re probably comfortable enough with your abilities - and your tools - just to get on and get things done. 👍

[@patchesZA]

This video brought me to a realisation of how lazy and complacent the Domino has made me. Great to be reminded of the crucial basics!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! Love my Domino, but not everyone has one. 🤷‍♂️👍

[@shaun30-3-mg9zs]

Hi Peter, Good advice on marking up boards and measuring up, I'm always open to good advice. As always a great video, take care

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Cheers Shaun! 👍👍

[@dougwardle2175]

Great advice Peter, thank you for doing this video. I really like the tape idea

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks Doug! 👍

[@warrensmith2902]

It only takes once of cutting dowels or domino's on the wrong side to learn you don't want to do that again. Great job. And I thought my story sticks for laying out cabinets was good. I use my small carpenters square for transferring lines to the side of tops and bottoms. Just bought one of those hing layout jigs. may have to try that next time I do a box.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks 👍

[@mandyleeson1]

This is really useful, thanks Peter. Especially appreciate the two different teaching methods and much prefer the latter. I’ve made a couple of cabinets, but my methods were much more Les Dawson and incomparable to your Nijinsky.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks Mandy! 😂👍

[@WPGinfo]

SOLID advice!

[@grotekleum]

Good sound advice - ignore it at your peril. Thanks for sharing, appreciated. Need two more sidling squares ... .

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! 👍

[@theofarmmanager267]

Can I say that I think there is a step before doing any marking (face, face edge) which is to decide which are those edges. I use mostly hardwood and my choice of face is usually governed by appearance ( most attractive, least defects etc.). I cut oversize to begin with (as I find this is less likely to result in errors due to boards moving on a table saw for instance) and then cut to exact size using the same edges (always top or always bottom or always face etc.) as the dictum. On a table saw, this might mean the edge that always goes against the fence or the face that is always facing up. With man made boards, it is rarer that aesthetics determine which is face or otherwise and I’m not sure as to the factors you used to decide which is face and face edge. Perhaps, the implication is that it doesn’t matter so long as you do mark it and stick to it.

[@ElaineH16]

Great wisdom ... Thanks

[@castlecodersltd]

Really helpful tips, thank you 🙂

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@warwickholden6332]

When you get to "glue up" - actually applying the glue and making the unit, it helps to have joints marked simply so that you know 'A' connects with 'A' and 'B' connects with 'B'. This is more important when using solid wood, as you want the best side facing out (if you are applying transparent finish like varnish). A tip I would pass on is - don't use the letter 'D'! Why? Well a hastily scrawled 'A' can look very like a hastily scrawled 'D' from a different angle. I use a triangle mark. Or you can use any symbol you prefer. As long as it's distinctive. Multiple joints in one unit unit? Use 'A1', 'A2' etc. It really helps get the right joints together when getting everything ready and applying glue.

[@pro-woodworking-tips]

Just put a t on the upper top outside gable corner no arrows needed. O for out on fixed top and bottom. Its obvious its the top right vs top left and t or b on front outside face. Trim for back panel after your joints are done. By keeping all panels same depth you avoid needing to use pencil lines. In my shop I groove for back on three sides and trim one side off and slide back into box When panels are perfectly sized and square which is really difficult to do without a digital panel saw. You can predetermine doors sizes right down to 1/10 mm with perfect gaps. I have done what is backassward and made doors then made the cabinets all off a spreadsheet, as an experiment. Frame and panel doors as well. In my spreadsheet I have even accounted for the removal of material in the sanding process about .4mm Square is tantamount but the mft is difficult to keep perfectly aligned. Evan my panel saw will go out without dbl checking spec points. I have my saw setup to cut to within .2 mm on five cut squaring process on a 3ft square. Always rotate in the cut sequence do not flip the board. Rotating makes a parallelogram and flipping makes a trapezoid. You present very well on camera can you just wing it or are you writing a script. I have an ooh and awe when thinking and explaining, except for when in a conversation. I enjoy your presentation, even though I have been doing this for fifty years. I sometimes think of going back to a small shop where it does not require so much effort to cover overhead. Present shop is 5000 square foot, a mile from downtown Vancouver Canada. We also see you have the coveted pin domino, so do I but it will not zero out on both side it is just off a tad. Also the centerline of the clear see through gauge to the baseline are slightly off. Had to use a washer and longer screw to overcome the counterbore to adjust window gauge.

[@AngieWilliamsDesigns]

Great video.

[@milandjordjevic5949]

Hello Peter , Thumbs up and i am a new Follower . Plans for the Hinges are Great . Thanks 👍

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks and welcome! 👍

[@bertczombos7259]

great video sir - have you ever considered offering in-person workshops / seminars ? you explain the "why" and for many of us (at least myself) that's when the learning happens best. The point where the layout lines on the melamine didn't match up is perfect example. Don't know if us North American folks would make the trip - but you never know. Good business reason for a trip to the UK?

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! It’s something I’ve considered yes, but I’d need a workshop with better facilities in order to comply with regulations! 🤷‍♂️👍

[@MichaelAlderete]

Learning correct, reliable, efficient methods of measuring and marking out are the hardest things to learn, when self-learning via KZbin. I never learned this stuff in shop classes, and it’s rarely explained in depth in most woodworking videos. Really appreciate you going into detail here. And I think having a solid module in your basics course would be really valuable.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks Michael! 👍

[@brianwaites4572]

Brilliant! 👍

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! 👍

[@bast_hout]

Informative video, thanks. Question; you start with explaining why it is better to reference all points from the same face, but then immediately skip that step when doing the 'quick' part, 'because when using the endstops of the domino, you dont need to mark the two edge joins'. So that seems to me in that one you will reference from two separate faces. Is the domino that forgiving, or does it just mean you have to be absolutely sure you have cut your pieces correctly?

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

As I say in the video, when marking up the cabinet at the end I’ve cut them very carefully so a/ I’m positive that they’re identical sizes, and b/ yes, the Domino is that forgiving. I can’t stress the benefit of +/- a couple of mm on each joint strongly enough when you’re working quickly; it’s the only handheld jointing system that allows this degree of wiggle room, apart from my loose tenon jig which is based on the same principle. 👍

[@paulhopkins1720]

Thanks Peter. Wouldnt it be useful to have a small saddle sqaure like device that went over the end of the combination square ruler, the part you mark with the pencil. That way you could mark the face and edge at the same time.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

That's a nice idea, but I think it would be a challenge to make it work at both ends. 👍

[@darvaish4552]

Hi Peter, thanks for all your help and guidance on here. a very basic question please, once dominoed the carcass, would you clamp them after glue?

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Yes, absolutely. 👍

[@darvaish4552]

@@10MinuteWorkshop many thanks for replying.

[@rickkinney1249]

nothing is EXACT, always, always, always measure off the shared face/edge-----life gets better and project gets better thanx peter rick

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@postcardcottages4289]

Fantastic video Peter. I have only just found you … a friend recommended your channel. Please can you tell me the name of the apparently laminated MDF board you are using. Not the white melamine faced the other one. Thanks.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks, and welcome! The only laminated MDF in this video is melamine faced one. The others are MR or Moisture Resistant MDF -that’s the green core one - and I had some flame-retardant MDF - that’s the pink-tinted one. 👍

[@cornerliston]

Lovely. May I suggest naming the top and bottom TF and BF instead. Makes more sense since it't the face you're tracking on those and not the top and bottom. : )

[@janetbayford133]

Sigh….I have so much to learn…..thanks for such a useful video

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thanks! Glad it was helpful! 👍

[@jdjd2922]

Do you have a specific reason to not use the time proven carpenters triangle?

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

I was never taught that way. I can see the benefit when you have say, multiple horizontal components - top, many shelves, base - but if it’s just a top & base and two sides the triangles are tiny. This method gives clear visual indication as to where the fixings are going, and which edges you reference off. 👍

[@Shiftie_]

Hi Peter, can you do a video on how to cut difficult pieces with a track saw? Such as angles or narrow pieces (narrower then your track). Thanks!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

👍 Tricky Tracksaw Cuts [video 460] kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5O2hI1rh5hkl6s

[@philip3708]

I'm wondering why you don't use a german "Schreinerdreieck" on the back face of each panel? Is this a only german thing? With one triangle mark, which is shared over all parts, everything is orientated.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

It's not something that's taught in Britain - I only learned about it from a German presenter on the Mafell stand at a tool show a few years ago - but on a simple cabinet like this it's hard to see the benefit tbh; for keeping a run of shelves or drawer fascias in order then certainly, but putting a triangle across the edges of the left and right sides of this cabinet for example, that just isn't as clear an indicator as a big L and R with an arrow or tape pointing to the front edge, unless you've been taught to look for it. 👍

[@sunsande]

Could someone please tell the name of the material (or producer name) inside the melamine boards - it is 2 colored - more "orange" in the middle and somewhat brighter along the edges (see @1:56 for example). Thanks a lot in advance!

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

It’s melamine faced MDF. 👍

[@willleskin3360]

Brilliant

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Thank you! 👍

[@garvielloken3929]

Nooice!

[@richardstevenson2727]

👊👍

[@chrisb9450]

Why wouldn't you just mark a "T" with an arrow on the piece of tape marking the "L" or "R"? One less piece of tape on every board.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

You can of course do whatever works for you. But having the 'T' tape folded over the top edge is one of those 'easy visual references' I mention in the video that can really help the folks who get a bit 'snow blind' when faced with a stack of cabinet parts. 👍

[@joehart3826]

Who else is here from Scott Brown Carpentry?

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

Welcome! Really appreciate Scott giving me a shout on his recent video. 👍

[@karenreynolds8903]

@joehart3826 I watch Scott Brown Carpentry...I have been watching him for a long time. When he was in Auckland before he moves to Nelson

[@gingerelvis]

I knew you were a fan of the staedtler pencils but was thinking for precise marking why dont you don't use a mechanical pencil. The next thing I see is you using a mechanical pencil 😂 for fine jobs they are my favourite, never any line thickness variation and a quick tap against something they are "sharp" again after you inevitably drop it.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

👍👍

[@jessejameson154]

Any chance of a vid featuring confirmat screws Peter ? Possibly exploring the advantages ( or lack of) of using them in plywood and mdf , and not just melamine. Maybe a comparison joint strength test or two.

[@10MinuteWorkshop]

I’ve had one on the ‘to do’ list for a while and one just popped up in my feed the other day. I used them on my small stool build, and I will again when the folding stool appears, but other than very specific use cases where the head of the screw may be seen, I don’t use them much tbh. But yes, they’re an interesting fixing, strong and fast when you use the dedicated drill and countersink. 👍