SAUCONY ENDORPHINE ELITE vs. NIKE VAPORFLY 3: super super shoes?

SAUCONY ENDORPHINE ELITE vs. NIKE VAPORFLY 3: super super shoes?
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[@josemaioral]

Of course, the Nike Vapor Fly 3, being an established sneaker, almost forces all testers to only give praise. But if we leave aside the fame, the reality is that it has become too soft a shoe. Comparing it to Marshmallow is actually very appropriate. Of course, softness is more comfortable, but we are talking about competition and not training sessions, and when fatigue sets in, this excessive softness works against it. On the other hand, Saucony's firmness, even though the use of this word may generate a negative impression, works perfectly for long distances including the Marathon as you proved in Boston. It's a sneaker with much more capacity to keep you going, even when fatigue sets in. This is the reason, for example, for the success of Adidas' current sneakers. The greater firmness of the midsole undoubtedly generates better performance.

[@its_Matt_B_]

I agree with most everything you say except for reviewers giving the VF3 praise just because it’s an established show. Your reasons for favoring the EE are valid, but it’s important to remember not to talk in absolutes. The VF3 may be too soft for you but a lot of runners favor a softer ride. My most recent marathon was in the VF3 and when fatigue set in, I did not find the softness worked against me, because the plate provided the necessary rigidity. I do tend to think the EE is the faster of the two shoes, but the VF3 is a far more pleasant ride, imo. I think there’s a lot to be said for that.

[@josemaioral]

I completely understand your points, in particular, for younger runners who have already started running with more comfortable shoes. I'm a veteran runner, and when I started running decades ago, shoes were much firmer and lower. For example, the Takumi Sen (8 or 9) suggested by Adidas basically for 5km and 10km is my favorite shoe for half marathons, and certainly 80% of the 29 marathons I completed were using shoes inferior to it in terms of height and cushioning. And I'm not a light runner. (Between 72/78kg). But considering that board shoes are a recent technology and used in the vast majority of cases by young people, their arguments are absolutely correct. I know that my profile is increasingly distant from current runners, but honestly, both the VF3 and the NB Elite 3, despite being among the most comfortable board shoes I have, I would never use them in a competition. The difference in their performance compared to Adidas (Takumi and Adios Pro), Saucony, Mizuno Rebelion Pro and some Chinese shoes like the XTEP 160x is so clear and accentuated for me (I understand it's personal), that I almost feel like I'm neglecting the well-known phrase by Steve Prefontaine: “To give less than your best is to sacrifice the gift you have received!!!” (I'm Brazilian, I live in Brazil, but I'm a fan of PRE)

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@josemaioral You’re a runner. Of course you’re a fan of Pre! 👊🏽 I completely understand how the Takumi Sen works well for you in the half marathon. A firmer shoe feels fast! I am also not a light runner (83kg) and for me the biggest benefit in the softer shoes is not having the feeling the pounding late in the race. I would guess I could run a fast time in a more traditional or lower stack shoe but, again for me, it wouldn’t feel as good to do so. When I explain it to myself this way it does appear to justify the argument that they offer an unfair advantage.

[@josemaioral]

Thank you for your feedback and for your attention. This was a great exchange of ideas! Happy holidays and great racing this year-end and for 2024!

[@its_Matt_B_]

Thank YOU! I always appreciate well thougt out comments,@@josemaioral! Happy holidays to you and your family and happy running! ✌🏽

[@thecaptainchas2820]

I have both of these shoes and my experiences with both are very close to yours. I just ran Chicago in the Endorphin Elite for a massive PB. I do feel like it’s a shoe that wants to go faster than marathon pace though. With the Vaporfly 3, I had the same heel-slipping issue, and I wouldn’t say I have a narrow foot (but maybe a narrow heel? 🤷‍♂️). Still the VF3 is a reliable racer that I think can handle all distances. If I were forced to choose one of the two, it would be the Endorphin Elite. For a race day only shoe, it just exudes performance. Great video! Subscribing now.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Thanks for the sub, and big congrats on your PB at Chicago! I ran Toronto the week after Chicago and used the VF3. It worked well. The heel didn't bother me, although of course I lace locked it!

[@brenk7764]

My feet are a bit wide, so sign me up for Saucony! Full disclosure: I own 4 pairs of Endorphin Pro and 3 pairs of Endorphin Speed - zero regrets - all are a real joy to run in. Thanks for this great review Matt.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Saucony makes some great shoes, but it seems like you're well aware of this! 🤣 As soon as the Endo Pro/Speed 4 are released the 3s will be able to be bought for a song! A lot more peeps will be able to run in these epic shoes! I'm curious how much the Endo Elites will drop in price when v2 is released.

[@adrianm.7800]

Great review. I have both and with only 50 Miles in the VF3 it's getting Retired to workouts...for races I want the best and that's the Elite for me. I feel that it's more responsive and propels you forward in the later miles...the VF3 didn't come close to the Elites performance...it just wasn't there with what seemed similar effort.

[@its_Matt_B_]

I like your description of the feeling late in a race! I would agree. The slightly firmer PWRRUN HG does make late race fatigue feel a little better because you're not working against the softer Zoom X. In the beginning of the race it feels opposite to that!

[@largeeddie]

Excellent comparison, well worth the wait! I don't have either of these but if I were to get one I suppose that the Vaporfly would be more likely. It's usually the reference for comparisons like this so I would learn something useful from the experience, even if I'm not eager to identify as Team Nike. (They named office buildings for Alberto Salazar and Lance Armstrong to give just one reason, and I don't believe for a hot second that they didn't know.) My impression of the Endorphin Elite is that it's a great race shoe but not one that runners often go to otherwise, not one that's been praised a lot for versatility. I don't have any marathons on my calendar and it's a lot of money. Nothing to back this up but for some reason I have a sense that version 2 will have a lot of refinements, maybe smoothing out some V1.0 rough edges and making it more broadly appealing. Saucony's good at that. But it seems incredibly good for the thing that people normally buy it to do. It will probably last longer too.🦈

[@its_Matt_B_]

You're 100% right about Saucony being good at refining their products! I'm expecting something good from V2 also! Yeah, Nike has to do some serious damage control and even thern I think it's going to take a very long time before they stop giving people a sour taste! It seems like they've brushed it under the rug, or at least they're enjoying not being in the news for negative things, but people remember!

[@davidmoghani2427]

I really admire these shoes. As I bought them on May the 25th of 2023. The GO Max 6 version has really made my easy/long runs and hilly workouts(even picking up the pace somewhat) very comfortable and very forgiving on the body due to the stack height and the geometry of the shoe. Very pleased with it.🙂🏃🏻‍♂️👟

[@its_Matt_B_]

Glad to hear you’re enjoying them! They sure do provide a forgiving ride! 👊🏽

[@flobergruns]

Super helpful! Thanks, Matt!

[@its_Matt_B_]

Thanks for watching! 👊🏽

[@TolunayOrkun]

Very good comparison. I don't have either shoe at the moment. Of these two brands, I have Endorphin Pro 3, Vaporfly 2 and Alphafly 1. Most of my supershoes are last year's or before models and they have a ton of life left in them. I bought them all on generous discounts. I am happy with being able to have some control on the urge so far this year. Considering these two, I would be interested getting either later on a 30-50% discount at some point if the opportunity presents. That said, I am not sure if I really would get any additional advantage. The performance advantage these models offer over previous ones are probably in the order of 1-2%.

[@its_Matt_B_]

I’m with you on waiting for a generous discount before buying anything, and I would also argue they don’t offer any tangible increase in performance over other shoes on the market (and especially the previous VF2).

[@Deadbuck73]

By your review and my experience running in the og 4%s I’d try the vapor fly 3. But they both sound enticing!

[@its_Matt_B_]

The fit of the VF3 are a little looser than the 4%, but the ride/feeing is the same!

[@Deadbuck73]

@@its_Matt_B_ as I continue heading in the right direction I’m looking forward to taking my 4s out. I’ve just resisted because I know they won’t last forever and I want to use em for more than a casual run! 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Deadbuck73 yeah, I get it! When we’re paying so much for shoes it’s normal to want to save them for something special (or at least more special than an easy run).

[@Deadbuck73]

@@its_Matt_B_ yes. I can’t say I paid much honestly. They were gifted to me by a gentleman who had bought them and offered them any size 13 on KZbin! He put a couple runs in them and didn’t enjoy them. I was the lucky one! We made arrangements and he shipped em. I will be forever grateful!

[@skobodabaws8946]

nicely done Matt, keep up the good work!

[@its_Matt_B_]

Cheers, mate! I appreciate your positivity! 👊🏽

[@i.p2088]

By the way.. Today I had my Stryd programed Fartlek.. 2 mile warmup and then 6 x 2 minutes HARD.. Did one 2 minutes but my legs just refund to move fast.. I did not feel tired just the legs said no 😢.. Did a couple of minutes easy and hard again.. No.. Legs just don't want to do it.. Running at Tempo plus pace fine but all out NO. SO closed the excersize and decided to go for an easy run.. I was flying.. Probably the fastest 5 miles of the year.. Effortless threshold run.. Very strange..

[@its_Matt_B_]

That is strange, but it takes a lot to go all out! I’m glad you were still able to knock out a solid effort! 💪🏽

[@i.p2088]

@@its_Matt_B_ as we are into shoes.. I did the run in the Metaspeed Edge plus. The shoe disappeared on the foot.. Good in one way.. But in a Supershoe I want the extra.. Vaporfly V2.. Adidas Pro 3.. Mizuno wave Rebellion Pro, Endorphin Pro 3 to an extent also the Metaspeed Sky Plus all Feel unique.. They have a secret sauce.. Metaspeed Edge plus.. Puma Deviate Nitro Elite 2.. Are Super trainers.. Do you have any knowledge of the Puma Fast R? In Greece for €145..tempting..

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 I haven’t run in the Fast-R. I recently reached out to Puma about trying them but didn’t hear back. I guess that’s a no. I also haven’t run in the Edge +, but I always thought the Sky+ had the feel of a super shoe. I’ve never raced in it but I’ll still take it out for workouts.

[@i.p2088]

@@its_Matt_B_ Sky Plus fits and feel very different from the Edge Plus. I got the Edge plus first thinking it's a Vaporfly V2 replacement. No way. Then the Sky Plus came on sale.. Very different fit and feel. Sky Plus so much better at any pace..

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 This is a high value comment! I always thought the Edge+ would have been very comparable to the super shoes I gravitate to. Not so. Thanks for saving me some 💰!

[@i.p2088]

I need stability and all Saucony shoes work well for me so it's the Elite for me but on SALE. 🥚🥚🥚

[@its_Matt_B_]

I wonder if they’ll go on sale this holiday season? If not, they’ll definitely go on sale when V2 drops early next year!

[@LR6092]

No v2 dropping this year. There won't be on sale ever

[@TimGrose]

The tongues on my Vaporfly 3 are almost touching as find it fits rather wide for my narrow but long US 14 feet. That said having done so, it fits fine, just looks odd. I have the tongues even closer on the Endorphin Pro 3. So it sounds like the Elite would just be too wide for me leaving aside the price & ride preferences.

[@its_Matt_B_]

We definitely have the same type of foot shape, Tim! We can obviously benefit from a less voluminous upper!

[@MarkSmith_Best-Athletics]

Definitely the Elite for me. Having wider feet I steer clear of NIKE. I guess that the Endorphin Pro 4 is out soon, have you heard anything about it? I'd like to see some HG foam added to the Powerrun PB to firm that shoe up a little. Ps. Have you seen the upcoming colourways of the Wave Rebellion Pro? I am tempted towards a 2nd pair and then using my first pair as a training shoe.

[@its_Matt_B_]

I think the Endo Pro 4 will be out in Feb or Mar next year, and I did hear something about them having PWRRUN HG, but I don't know where I heard it, so take it with a pinch of salt! No, I haven't seen the new colourway of the WRP. I did just see the new colourways of the Wave Rebellion Flash, and those look fantastic!

[@MarkSmith_Best-Athletics]

@@its_Matt_B_ The WRP in the new colours (male and female) have just dropped on sportsshoes uk today. 😍 I am very tempted. Especially if the 15% off code to drop them to approx £169 still works on them.

[@ABucc]

Saucony Endorphin Elite is way better (IMHO). It is stable underfoot, better comfort, way better durability, and doesn't fatigue my legs with long miles like the Vaporfly 3 did. I can't take the Vaporfly 3 serious when after only 9 miles into that shoe, the outsloles look like they were put through a shredder.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Yeah, I get those arguments. 100% valid! I think the bigger reason to choose one over the other is whether you like a softer or a firmer ride. If you favor a firmer ride you also get all the other benefits of the Elite. If you like the soft pop of the VF3, not much else compares.

[@Wings_nut]

As an age-grouper, I'm not elite enough to justify the $$$ of the Elite. I'll stick with the Pro 3. Thanks, Matt.

[@its_Matt_B_]

You'll never go wrong with the Pro 3! Save that money!!

[@Wings_nut]

Cheers, Matt :-)

[@michaeldominic2070]

Hey Matt, I am looking at both of these shoes for my fall marathon and cant decide. Ive been wearing the Adios Pro 3 my last few marathons and really like them, just want to try something new. I loved the Vaporfly v1 but the Vaporfly v2 doesnt seem to have the same soft bouncy goodness. In your experience does v3 feel better than v2 or basically the same? Also, would you say the Endorphin Elite is softer or firmer than Adios Pro 3? Thanks

[@i.p2088]

Very good question to compare the Endorphin Elite to Adidas Pro 3 🙏🏻

[@its_Matt_B_]

I’d say the VF3 feels very comparable to v2. I don’t think it’s enough to upgrade if your V2 s still have life in them. I haven’t run in the Adios Pro 3, but I think the Pro 4 is dropping soon (new upper), so I’ll try to get a pair and I’ll do a comparisons vid.

[@BroccLeeAV]

I don't but looking for my next marathon shoes. Alphafly may not come out till 2024.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Yeah, I heard the Alphafly was a 2024 drop too. I was hoping it was going to be this month!

[@BroccLeeAV]

@its_Matt_B_ Nike a bunch of custers for that one lol. Looking for next marathon shoe and my Alphafly 2's finally split off the rear end ha. Looking all around and Endorphin Elite looks good idk.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@BroccLeeAV I ran Boston this year in the Elites. I was happy with them and thought they worked well!

[@Leporkchop34]

Hi, Matt. I don't have either shoe. I have the VP2 and the Sky+. The way you describe the elite reminds me of the Sky+. I plan to stick to vaporfly moving forward. Will you compare the new balance SC elite to VF3 at some point?

[@its_Matt_B_]

The pop of the Sky+ feels more like the VF than the EE. The Sky+ rides very soft to me and the EE feels slightly firmer! Yes, if I can get a pair of the SC Elite I will definitely do a comparison. The SC Elite v4 should drop in October, so it may not be until then! 👊🏽

[@i.p2088]

SC Elite V3 feel very different to the Sky +. Much softer and much more front rocker in the SC Elite V3. SC elite V3 feel closer to a super trainer then to a Supershoe like the Vaporfly or Metaspeed sky +.

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 if the SC Elite feels like a super trainer, I wonder what the SC Trainer feels like. I haven’t run in either.

[@i.p2088]

@@its_Matt_B_ Like a brick? I understand that it's in fashion.. Kinvara Pro is also a brick.. 😂

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@i.p2088 I don’t have the Kinvara Pro, yet, but my expectations are tempered and I won’t be expecting race-day performance from it!

[@Chris-cw8ey]

Are they comparable in speed? or is one slightly faster than the other? Looking at mainly the half marathon to marathon distance. Thanks!

[@its_Matt_B_]

Yes, they’re definitely comparable in speed. The difference, obviously, is if you prefer Nike or Saucony but also what kind of ride you prefer. The Nike is quite a bit softer than the Saucony.

[@Chris-cw8ey]

I noticed you ran a 3:15 in Boston with the Elites and 3:10 in Toronto with the VF3. Was it more the course difficulty (Boston being hilly) or do you think the VF3 might be a bit faster? Just trying to choose for my first marathon. Thanks! @@its_Matt_B_

[@its_Matt_B_]

@@Chris-cw8ey Toronto was ideal marathon running conditions:; perfect temps on a flat course and no rain. Boston is hilly and the weather was atrocious. If anything I'd say the Elites are faster if we look at all the other variables.

[@Chris-cw8ey]

Thank you!@@its_Matt_B_

[@gudboyngdisyerto]

they are expensive and then there are people like me who have to pay additional fee for shipping and custom duty 😢

[@its_Matt_B_]

Ugh! That just adds insult to injury! Sorry to hear about the extra you have to pay!

[@nathankramer2080]

I have the VF 2. Do you prefer the 3 over the 2?

[@its_Matt_B_]

🤔 Good question. No, I can’t say I prefer v3. I would not recommend you upgrade if your V2 s are still good. When it comes time to buy new shoes, buy the 3! 👊🏽

[@vladankostevski5749]

Saucony 🥇

[@its_Matt_B_]

The EE is an epic shoe!

[@tommoore3292]

Elite all day long

[@its_Matt_B_]

Yeah! I’m with you on that one! 💫🙌🏽

[@halmo68]

Bonjour et merci. La mousse zoom x est super, mais à une durée de vie ridicule.

[@its_Matt_B_]

Vous n'êtes pas usé ! Nike devrait vraiment le faire durer un peu plus longtemps, mais ils ne le feront probablement pas car nous continuons à acheter leurs chaussures !🤣

[@halmo68]

@@its_Matt_B_ 👍🤣🤣

[@georgiejackpot9540]

Why does your voice like weasing hissing almost whispery .

[@its_Matt_B_]

Idk! Why do any voices sound like they do? This is the only one I have.