Framing Lumber : Traditional vs. Engineered - This Old House Jobsite

In this episode of The Build Show, Matt talks with Builder Jeff Sweenor about the pros/cons of Engineered Framing Lumber including 2x4's, 2x6's, LSL's, LVL's, and Engineered Beams. Jeff is the Builder on the current season on This Old House.
www.sweenorbuil...
Huge thanks to our Show sponsors Polywall, Huber, Dorken Delta, Prosoco, & Rockwool for helping to make these videos possible! These are all trusted companies that Matt has worked with for years and trusts their products in the homes he builds. We would highly encourage you to check out their websites for more info.
www.Poly-Wall.com
www.Dorken.com
www.Huberwood.com
www.Prosoco.com
www.Rockwool.com

[@bwillan]

The engineered lumber may cost you double compared to SPF lumber, but the drywallers, finish carpenters, cabinet installers, tile guys will love you for the dead straight and flat surfaces they have to work with. Which will make that part of the job go quicker and maybe even cost less.

[@adubbelde1]

I wish I'd used LSL's for my door openings. I spent a lot of time fitting door jambs and trim to out of plumb studs.

[@volvo09]

Congrats at meeting the TOH crew! You were round my neck of the woods! Lots of older houses.

[@NSMike87]

Aw, you should've done the TOH signoff - "I'm Matt Risinger..." "And I'm Jeff Sweenor..." "For The Build Show."

[@yangmagic0703]

Lolllll

[@pbfamous07]

great channel, great build. 30yo 2yr app carpenter in australia, and despite all our terminology being different i find your channel and exposure of international technologies a REAL ASSET and very entertaining. cheers matt & geoff

[@peterbeyer5755]

pbfamous07 Do you work in Melbourne area

[@peterbeyer5755]

Do you work in Melbourne Australia area

[@tabranch3165]

Matt is having fun with the NEXT TIME ON THE BUILD SHOW ‼️

[@ruelsmith]

I'm in the commercial sector and there are a whole lot of metal studs used in structural building. They use a higher gauge stud than a non supporting wall uses. Most commercial buildings are held up by steel columns and beams with corrugated metal decking and 4 to 5" of concrete poured on it for the floors, or pretensioned precast concrete with a 2 or 3" cap pour. But smaller buildings such as a bank branch and even landings on staircases in larger buildings use lots of heavy gauge steel studs and they're super strong. Interior walls use the thin gauge stuff and rely on strong 5/8" high impact drywall for added strength since the studs are usually only screwed on one side of the track and twist around easily.

[@WillPower311]

Great Conversation! Warmed my heart to see you on the This Old House site!

[@alexbanks7115]

Mr Risinger, I love the video I’m always interested in framing. I’d like very much if you did a video in the future about the old way of sheeting with shiplap vs today’s methods pros and cons.

[@bryanthomas544]

There is a such thing as structural metal studs. I had 16 gauge used on a project I did. You can have the manufacturer engineer them for whatever your needs are.

[@VC-Toronto]

Years back on an episode of TOH, they featured an engineered product for studs, which were basically a 2x6 or 2x8 stud, but made similar to an I-Joist, with a web made of OSB, and finger-jointed flanges out of (I think) 2x3. . I haven't been able to find any manufacturer that currently makes this. Similar to an I-Joist for a floor joist, they had knockouts for wiring etc, and were very stable.

[@craiguddstromcarpentry7605]

It’s the same price in New Zealand so I only use timber for deck framing or anything else exposed to water.

[@idaho4allguns836]

Nice comments and great review. You must have no OSHA where you work??? No harnesses are being worn on those in the aerial lift and a guy standing on the very top of a ladder at :22!! It doesn't matter if a guy has his foot on the bottom support brace I'm sure the manufacturer states Do Not Stand On the Top Step...... no exceptions.

[@milanroets9697]

This year I tried using LSL studs on cabinet walls. They are really dense and do not take fasteners well. I even tried to nail 16 cc sinkers and they didn’t want to drive in with a titanium hammer.

[@Roaring.On.Carnivore.]

Great Video 👍👍👊👊

[@jrac863]

If you like framing with lsl studs you will really love framing the lvl studs i swapped over a year ago

[@Shako_Lamb]

I LOVE TOH! Wish I had been there!

[@seanm3226]

Matt: “The downside?” Builder: “The cost...it’s twice as much. Sounds like a lot” Me: “No, it IS a lot.

[@bigneilh]

This is a great video. Lots of great information and seems very cutting edge!

[@pfschuyler]

Really like the channel, great information. I have a few comments about steel framing; the reason you wouldn't conventionally frame with it is that it has an Achilles heel, it transmits heat way too effectively. So assuming you are framing things as you would with wood, if you replaced the wood 1:1 with metal framing you get a complete 'thermal short circuit' of the wall envelope. That is, the insulating value of the wall envelope drops precipitously to the point that the insulation between the studs is nearly useless. That characteristic pretty much mandates a very different design approach...like 100% exterior insulation. So its doable but it has major design implications. Another interesting thing is that steel studs are not nearly as precise as you'd think. They also have cupping, twisting, bowing and so on, as a by-product of manufacturing and (sometimes) storage. Its nowhere near as bad as conventional lumber, but it'd be wrong to think of steel studs as being perfectly precise. I'd wager that most engineered lumber is more precise than steel studs. And finally, that design above is using an entirely unnecessary quantity of engineered lumber for the walls, there could be a considerable savings in the spacing of the studs of the walls (barring some unusual condition). That might drop the SF $ cost for engineered lumber on the job as a whole.

[@derpmansderpyskin]

I was initially skeptical of the effect of metal studs on energy efficiency (how much heat could 25 gauge steel really transmit?), but after checking some data, you're absolutely correct. On a wood framed 2x6 wall, 16in on center, you lose 16-17% of your R-Value to the studs. On an equivalent 2x6 steel wall, you lose 60-65% of your R-Value to the studs. It gets even worse with 2x8 walls, which would lose almost 70% of their R-Value to the steel framing. Even going down to 24in centers, you're still losing 40-60% of your R-Value depending on the thickness of the wall and the type of insulation. Steel framing does have other advantages, but it seems that exterior insulation is more or less mandatory. Here's a great article, and the source for all those numbers, if anyone's curious: www.buildingenclosureonline.com/blogs/14-the-be-blog/post/86806-effective-insulation-r-values-in-steel-vs-wood-framing

[@jackjmaheriii]

Great video as usual! One con not mentioned, engineered lumber responds to fire especially poorly.

[@mattbram8993]

What a cool episode, love ToH!

[@ZeroBit0]

@mattRisinger Wow @matt risinger look at you go! Rocking that childhood dream congrats man! Hey you left another fan boy behind,

[@vertablue3803]

Very informative as usual 👍

[@kfbob364]

Matt the tight rings on the Doug fir tell you that it is probably inland NW harvested. The wider rings are PNW Coastal wood. Matt, on the steel studs if they are 20 gauge or thicker they are definitely structural. You are confusing the thin 25 gauge for non bearing commercial walls.

[@tomruth9487]

Have to wonder how engineered lumber is as far as screwing or nailing into their edges? I know plywood and certainly osb does not take edge screwing or nailing as well as real lumber.

[@augustreil]

That sure looked like Tom Silva and Kevin O'Connor At 2:30 Would have been cool as hell if they had a 15-20 second South meets North builder !

[@troycarothers8254]

At 9:21 also.

[@chrismoore9997]

How do those Engineered lumber boards hold up to moisture over time? What if they get rained on during construction? I have seen too much OSB disintegrate over time from moisture exposure.

[@popdaddyg]

Matt have you ever used Framer Series Lumber from Weyerhaeuser? It’s guaranteed to stay straight.

[@BearMeat4Dinner]

Dude Matt! Can you get me on TOH!? I've been trying to get on there! I miss BV! He was my hero when I was growing up! Great video Matt!!

[@josephdiaz6819]

Tom Silva is an American Treasure!!

[@mjoconr]

In Australia, metal framing for homes is very common at 100% or some lower number.

[@macdonaldjohnstonfan]

What are you on about? Timber framed houses in Australia are still king by a long, long shot, steel frames are not very popular at all down here and are a pest to work on.

[@mjoconr]

@@macdonaldjohnstonfan Not 100% of installs I mean where metal is used the frame is 100% metal not a metal/wood mix.

[@benjaminromshak2921]

When in the US did dimensional lumber go from true sizes to what you buy now is..that’s the question I have...I’ve read it was gradual from the 20’s on for a standard but when did it become common for a 2x4 to no longer be an actual 2X4.

[@ArthurDentZaphodBeeb]

Great vid - curious how that post in the middle of the span was attached to the beam above? Didn't see any obvious connector.

[@jepps5]

Hilarious, did you see Jeff Sweenor at the very end?? His face jumped and he was like “wtf” when Matt said “On the build show” out of the blue like that.

[@jhealy3110]

Nice recycling and I'd do the same, but at this point I'm all about steel framing...

[@AnEvolvingApe]

Is off-gassing a major concern for these engineered wood products?

[@thebeststooge]

Good question I asked around about myself as I still remember the smell of manufactured homes and the stink for 6 months to a year then fear of the odorless off gassing.

[@xxxrsgrsgxxx]

No. Mostly negligible. Applied resins and waxes are formaldehyde free now

[@mikejf4377]

Love the video. Do you know of any builders building with container and steal studs?

[@jamesoncross7494]

I wonder how the glue will hold up after 150 years. I like solid wood. It will last hundreds of years if kept correctly.

[@joeyjo-jojuniorshabadoo6827]

I've been watching a British show called "escape to the country". A lot of the properties on that show are hundreds of years old and they're post-and-beam construction. I bet if a house made of glued wood is neglected for only a little while, it will fall apart quickly due to water. Those engineered OSB i-beams also burn twice as fast.

[@andrewr.7044]

Seen houses with engineered lumber from the 80's or 90's where the outer layers are delaminating. These are main carrying beams in a well conditioned basement. If I were building my own home, real lumber whenever possible.

[@johnguilbert1349]

​@@andrewr.7044 I prefer East Texas Pecker Wood, it is hard as the day is long and it has as slight curve to the left.

[@bluecollartrader1791]

@@johnguilbert1349 Betting you know how it tastes, too. You left that part out.

[@bertall1ca]

@@johnguilbert1349 lulz

[@ilickspam]

could you cover a video over structural plastic studs?

[@jum5238]

You mentioned not using it for exterior walls, porches, etc. But isn't that engineered lumber on those outside wall studs behind you? Or did you mean to suggest outside exposure?

[@guytech7310]

Any of the LSL studs that are on outside walls are going to be sheathed. The issue is that during construction LSL can swell up if your building during the rainy season. Walls are up up before the ceiling oof is installed, during this time the LSL studs are exposed to rain and can swell up, When the do dry out, it does not always go back to its original dimensions. Suppliers really need to add a water resistant sealant on them in my opinion. That said, No issues with swelling with LVLs when they get wet.

[@nellermann]

What is the fire rating on these engineered boards and beams? Specifically versus traditional lumber?

[@user-re3zu1yj3z]

Besofo shel davar ani lo ratze la'azov et abait

[@fenestrationpro]

Put some fire to either and you will have a pile of ashes - guaranteed.

[@orishejuukuedojor2736]

Good question

[@xxxrsgrsgxxx]

Flame spread ratings were suspect back when these were first introduced. However many series actually have more resilient values than conventional lumber due to borate based additives

[@leosdebruyn]

Not just a mater of how it spreads and burns, but also how quickly structural members fail when heated. It's interesting to look at the rules that many fire departments have put in place in recent years about going onto the roofs of modern lightweight structures. Houses these days are built with cost and ease of construction in mind, not survivability in a fire.

[@orishejuukuedojor2736]

Awesome!

[@nellermann]

Love TOH!

[@commentingonshit]

1940s... Jeff is thinking thats not old at all! Its brand new for new england!

[@thecakeisalie6601]

my 3 family in queens was built in 1913, now THATS old

[@ristube3319]

Holy crap! I’m from Westerly!!! OMG that’s insane! I thought Taylor Swift ruined the place for everyone else! FYI in Westerly RI, I AM RIS!!! (I even had the license plate!) haha I’d still like to shake your hand over a beer on me. Lots of nice restaurant bars on Canal st. Just look for the train station, it’s right in the middle of them.

[@johnwhite2576]

Why did they use i joists rather than floor trusses if they were going to spend $$ on engineered studs.

[@rhd244]

Like two old buddies telling stories

[@danstrayer111]

SPF does not have the rot resistance of Douglas fir......2:57

[@mojo6385]

i stumbled onto a 2x4 that must have had 60-70 growth rings in it at the lumberyard. Then I accidentally cut it up for a project that i didn't intend to... ah well.

[@volvo09]

Oops, it is amazing how few growth rings new lumber has, it's almost like foam compared to the old stuff!

[@quangpham2281]

Who else is a fan of 'this old house' thumbs up!!!

[@emo65170.]

Are LSLs as rigid as regular sticks?

[@Ramdodge582]

how about with mold if framing during rain... like in the PNW? we commonly see that the engineered wood products get mold much much easier and faster, not all over but just spots, there are some yummy chunks in there.

[@OldMan_PJ]

He talked about how the engineered lumber rots and should never be used for exterior framing such as decks and porch roofs.

[@Ramdodge582]

@@OldMan_PJ I'm not talking about exterior, wood grows mold here in the pnw during the construction phase. Floor truss webs are engineered are get the worst of it and kd studs don't mold much if any.

[@monabale8263]

can lsl take a scarf joint?

[@brinkshows2720]

Hi Matt :)

[@captainkidd1234]

Engineered wood can be great stuff until moisture exposure comes into play. Long builds, leak damage, flood and sprinkler/fire extinguishing water damage will render it practically useless. “Real wood and plywood can dry out and survive. Why take the risk ? Insurance and rebuild/repair costs will drastically reduce any savings realized by using manufactured lumber products.

[@MegaAndroyd]

Where's the selfie with Norm?

[@notawildthingy]

Ya know Matt, as much as you seem to rub shoulders with the TOH crew, I would be surprised if they haven't offered you a host position yet.

[@mav5204]

my house was built in 1914 its floor is 2x8 old growth douglas fir with a span of 33 feet in the center is a 10x10 df beam that runs the lenght of the house am digging down basment atm to underpin front and increase height while digging ive found 2 horse shoes and the remains of rail road pins picking up an old 2x4 compared to new is shocking maybe 3 times as heavy bigger, hard dense wood grains packed together this shit bends nails and snaps drywall screws poker straight was thinking it has to be stronger than modern 2x6

[@Randommusingsvideos]

I can't watch This Old House in the UK anymore as Discovery Home & Leisure no longer exists as a satellite TV channel for UK TV viewers. I watch Matt Risinger's channel instead as its the next best thing!

[@davidth.o.g.2229]

You guys are all watching a 10 minute vid about JeffSweenor......

[@4philipp]

So the engineered lumber rots faster if you don’t find leaks quickly. I would rather have fast drying lumber.

[@bluecollartrader1791]

There's something to be said for that.

[@SimpleRoad]

My gut tells me the overuse of engineered framing lumber will be something we look back on with regret. You’d be better off ripping or planing standard framing lumber down to straight than going with a compromised material.

[@Joshua79C]

JuM said the same thing an hour before you and if you look up the reply you will get what I was going to say.

[@justinballard7242]

I agree

[@geef6770]

Why you don't build stone houses?

[@pcno2832]

Because wood is cheap, so we don't have to. Also, "stone" wouldn't pass the seismic codes in some states without a lot of rebar.

[@geef6770]

PC No: I understand. But: We lived for some years in woodhouses (in Europe and the States). No comparison to the stone and reinforced concrete house we live in since 30 years concerning temperatures, humidity, noise etc. Americans should invest in stone and concrete houses. Best rate of return!

[@Ramdodge582]

double the cost!?! never heard of a hand held power planner and butt strips?

[@agrarianelectrictractorco.400]

I think you will quickly get close to the cost if you're putting extra labor into a $2 stud

[@penguin12902]

How many minutes of your labor is worth $2.00? 1 minute? 2 minutes? Can you plane a stud perfectly straight in 1 minute? Because you just doubled the cost of the stud when you ran it through the planer...you may as well just buy the engineered stuff if perfectly straight is the goal.

[@Ramdodge582]

@@penguin12902 not run each stud through a planner, that's just stupid. Crown and cull. Then once your dry you use a hand held power planner over tall studs. Your sheet rocker can also use butt strips.

[@FredMcIntyre]

👍🏻👊🏻

[@justinballard7242]

I'd rather have a real piece of wood instead of wood chips and glue. these engineered houses won't last mark my words

[@davewilliams7693]

In Matt's REAL Remodels of his crappy 70's house - he opens by taking a jab at all the build and remodel shows that do NOT reveal cost. In his opinion, these shows leave many people with unrealistic expectations of $ when doing major home projects. I agree and the poster child of this bad practice is TOH and here is Matt on a TOH job site! (Although Jeff Sweenor does mention the 2x price adder when using engineered lumber - a rare practice at TOH). I have watched TOH for too many years - in my opinion - it has too much of a fantasy element. It shows what wonderful things can be done when cost is not a consideration. I hope Matt does not go the same way as TOH and hides and shields viewers from initial costs. I fully understand that initial costs may not tell a complete story when one considers home construction. But TOH totally ignores revealing costs on their projects - and I take the show much less seriously.

[@seanm3226]

Cost is double. “...sounds like a lot”. No, it is a lot.

[@catsbitemyface]

S W E E N O R B U I L D E R S

[@michael-xe7rz]

Metal studs conduct cold at a rate of 1700 times more than wood! Metal makes a cold house.

[@adamjankowski8658]

Any moisture and you will regret the decision to go with lsl

[@robbyhowell8668]

so twice as expensive and less water resistent

[@McCuneWindandSolar]

Sorry I would never want to build a home out of participial board, or OSB. unless they made that crap water resistant and rot resistant the only way I would ever use it for and entire home.

[@jeffwoehrle]

Simply saying it doubles the cost is perhaps a bit misleading for the average viewer. Double the cost ***for the wood***. When considered within the overall cost of the house, it's not overly significant. Moreover, actually having straight walls makes finish work a lot faster and more economical. Good episode.

[@bluecollartrader1791]

Homeowner doesn't see those savings and it is unlikely the GC will either. That savings goes in the pocket of the finish subcontractor.

[@jeffwoehrle]

@@bluecollartrader1791 That's true, but iT doesn't mean the savings don't exist.

[@bluecollartrader1791]

@@jeffwoehrle Absolutely, the savings exist. Nobody can deny that. My reason for saying that it is unlikely the person(s) paying for the added cost of the straight walls from the finish carpenter's labor savings will not benefit (unless the finish carpenter happens to be doing his/her own home), wasn't just to be controversial or contradictory, in case my comment comes across that way to anyone reading. My point was that the new studs won't be much in demand unless those savings can be taken from the finish carpenter's bill and be explicitly and demonstrably shown to be a dollar for dollar price reduction to the person paying for the house. If the finish carpenter doesn't pocket the savings, the General Contractor likely will. For these new materials to be widely accepted, it is going to take a LOT of commitment from the builders to not pocket that money from saved labor time. And that is why these things will likely only be used in high-end homes by high-end builders and NOT show up in the average home. There's no incentive to the average end buyer, only the buyer who has lots of money and will pay the higher cost of the enhanced materials and not care. Good comment and thanks for responding to me. Cheers!

[@jeffwoehrle]

@@bluecollartrader1791 No worries, mate! Thanks for the reply.

[@timjeffries1555]

Much more dead load.

[@toadamine]

Jeff's Wiener? 🤔😂

[@sheet-son]

Awkward interview, felt sorry for the builder guy.

[@tgunderwood8399]

Brian it’s Texas meets New England. I think it is great!

[@djabroni_brochacho4644]

I can't say I've ever met a white English-speaking framer. Not saying it's a good or bad thing, just never met one.

[@AlexRodriguez-tp1zr]

This guy looks a little like Mike pence.

[@willsingleton6759]

All that beautiful solid wood sheathing and he cheaps out with OSB :0

[@jaysson1151]

It’s possible that could be Advantech sheathing but I can’t see the label.

[@willsingleton6759]

@@jaysson1151 Zip is like lipstick on a pig.. I'd still rather have ply with a good fluid applied on top.

[@jaysson1151]

Will Singleton I didn’t say Zip sheathing, I said Advantech sheathing.

[@willsingleton6759]

@@jaysson1151Advantech is Zip without the WRB.

[@jaysson1151]

Will Singleton no it’s a different formula otherwise, why sell it for a higher price tag?