Max Or Pure Data? Choosing An Audio Programming Language

[@SoundSimulator]

Just FYI, this was my first real video on this channel and was still figuring things out in terms of the format, narration, edits, and etc. My videos have improved a bit over the years (I hope!). If I were to remake this video today, I would certainly bring up Plugdata (which you can learn more about here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWGqo2WPoq2tZ6M) Thanks for watching!

[@NaviciaAbbot]

Don't forget that Max and Pd are of the same family - both were created by Miller Puckette.

[@SoundSimulator]

YES. That is such a crucial detail that I left out.

[@pubdigitalix]

Super important detail.

[@user-kp9ud2xl4f]

If you like the UI in Max but don't own it, try plugdata. It's a wrapper around Pure Data that makes it look and feel more like Max, and you can do things like auto align the objects to keep patches neat.

[@SoundSimulator]

PlugData is great! I made a vid on it~

[@Ibbys_space]

puredata as a VST is actually the best thing ever

[@rbat5555]

I find the user experience on PlugData to be slightly better... At least PD has got autopatch since q while...

[@BlazertronGames]

Oh wow, I just tried it. The UI is amazing. I wrote it off at first, because I thought it was more of a competitor of puredata, but it's compatible with it. Much nicer than pd vanilla.

[@igorabdoaguilar9331]

three libraries for using Pure data vanilla. Else (overall an awesome must have library, being updated regularly) Cyclone (max objects inside pd) GEM (visuals in pure data) bonus : Ophelia (more updated visuals for pude data, but requires to know lua language) They are fenomenal for pure data and level the playing field for the comparison between pure data and max!

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you for the recommendations, Igor!! I noticed after making this video that Pure Data can be amazing for doing visual. I might make videos about GEM so I have an excuse to learn it!! My appreciation and respect for Pure Data really grew in the past several months of starting this channel. I'm looking forward to resume doing Pure Data tutorials again in the next few months.

[@_DRMR_]

@@SoundSimulator I used Pd for over a decade exclusively to do visuals and video manipulation using PiDiP and GEM libraries. Only in the past year have I slowly gotten into all the ~ operators and using it to do audio.

[@brian2590]

For me pure data was a no brainier. I was a broke dishwasher in 2001 and could not afford much when i discovered it. Linux was my OS of choice because it was free. eventually i had many older networked laptops running as dedicated effects and synthesizers. This hardware was free and helped create cool instruments that did not commercially exist at the time . who would pay for commercial software i thought. it seemed to have more limitations even though it looked nicer. Fast forward to 2022 i am using it with embedded boards for custom art installations and hacking on eurorack modules that run PD patches. Some of these applications run 24/7 outdoors in harsh weather consumer desktop or laptop computers running windows or mac OS would not be up for the task. For anyone that does not have the money for commercial software and has allot of eWaste laying around. pure data is the better choice. go make some massive interactive sound sculptures or junkyard kalimbas. most people would prefer max in studio though and that's also awesome :)

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. With more and more embedded audio hardware coming out in the recent years, it's a great time to be learning Pure Data. Yeaaaah, I had my laptop succumb to the cold during a performance. As much as I love Max, an instrument with Pure Data patcher embedded most likely would've handled it better.

[@pistolboy5087]

Can u provide some links to ur works?

[@MGCaverly]

I had no idea that engines like Max & Pd even existed until a few weeks ago. I went with Max and will say that the native help is first class.

[@SoundSimulator]

Enjoy the journey!!

[@markparfitt]

Thank for these videos!!!

[@SoundSimulator]

Of course! Glad you dig them :)

[@markparfitt]

@@SoundSimulator these are crazy helpful and giving me the confidence to start building stuff myself. Your work isn’t going unnoticed.

[@SoundSimulator]

@@markparfitt Thank you so much that encouraging message! It's a rewarding journey so I hope you have fun!

[@Mamotreco]

Thank you! I'm stoked about your upcoming series of videos. I've liked and subscribed 💯

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate it.

[@titusbarker7921]

This is great content. Really informative and accessible. Similarly excited for upcoming videos! Many thanks

[@SoundSimulator]

I'm glad and grateful to hear that. Thank you very much, Titus.

[@nnnxxd]

Looking forward to more! Gonna lighten the thumb of every video!

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you so much, Xizan. I greatly appreciate your support.

[@santiagoterigi1949]

For my work,as Max is now integrated to ableton, there is no room to even think about it 🖤

[@SoundSimulator]

Definitely! I can't really switch DAW because of that//

[@SoundSimulator]

Tho with PlugData, things are changing!!!

[@antfactor]

Thanks for this. I have Max… but they both seem pretty cool/interesting. I think for me it’s more of a question of time to learn yet another process/interface, etc. that said, I was using Cycling ‘74‘s software back in the mid 80s. Really cool stuff!

[@obineg5752]

first person who used cycling software 10 years before the company was founded. :)

[@jamesharkins4272]

I'm proficient in Pd and fluent in SuperCollider. For my money, parallel signal chains and polyphony are clumsy in both Max and Pd (here I think Pd has a little edge though, Max's [poly~] is over-engineered while Pd's [clone] just gets the job done), BUT effortless in SC. The initial steps in SC are harder, but once you get past that, you can run very far very fast.

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you for your insight!

[@mz2250]

I'm also proficient in SC and use max a lot, I think poly is over egnineered but with mc. max has made a step forward in poly and parallel signal chains, now everything is easier to handle, but yes SC is way above everything, both in sound and speed when you pass the learning curve imho

[@rbat5555]

Thank you!!!❤

[@SoundSimulator]

You're welcome :D

[@spost26]

Thank you for your video! I am brand new to this exciting world! Looks like PD is a good place to start!

[@SoundSimulator]

Welcome Stephen!!! Yes, Pure Data will open a whole new world to you!! Have fun!

[@bassywax]

did you start the max series videos?

[@SoundSimulator]

Not yet! I hope to someday!

[@triangulargameaudio]

Thank you!

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank YOU for watching :D

[@nickmonks9563]

I'm learning Max4Live on my Macbook, but it's good to know the two are quite similar as I use Linux on my other machines and would like to do some development there in the future. Sounds like PD will do the option and (for the most part) translate over fairly well. Appreciate the video.

[@SoundSimulator]

Especially with PlugData, learning Max is pretty much learning Pure Data at the same time. Thanks for watching, Nick! I hope you're enjoying the journey so far//

[@dizlerimkupsis]

I am new to Pd and often times it seems abandoned by the creators, although the community is active enough to find solutions to your problems.

[@SoundSimulator]

As long as there is an active community, there will always be people happy to help each other.

[@SimpleTrax]

It is not abandoned, it is still improved.

[@aevin_io]

Thanks for mentioning the crossgrade buyin option!

[@SoundSimulator]

You're welcome!

[@vaaalsongs4867]

Interesting. I’ll be following along.

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you. We'll begin programming/patching in Pure Data starting next video.

[@vaaalsongs4867]

@@SoundSimulator Looking forward to it

[@kisho2679]

what portable PureData player do exist that can be played with a midi controller (kind of dedicated PD box, as alternative options to the "Organelle")?

[@SoundSimulator]

I have seen people use Electrosmith Daisy or Bela with a MIDI controller. You can embed your PureData patcher inside of it and have a portable synth. I haven't done it personally but both of those companies have great forum where people reply kindly and quickly!

[@solomonspeare1963]

Even though I understand the logic of visual programming and I have both MAX and Pd, I constantly find myself doing my projects on Supercollider for some reason. It just seems more convenient for my approach I guess. For me in max, as the program expands, it starts to look like a spaghetti dish and I don’t like that. However they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. I found the solution in learning all of them and using OSC to communicate between them. For example, I wouldn’t use Sc for visuals but max or pd, definitely. In the end, I guess it all comes to which approach you find most comfortable to work with because they all have similar capabilities

[@SoundSimulator]

It's all about what fits with your workflow for sure :)

[@solomonspeare1963]

@@SoundSimulator by the way i am looking forward to your next sound design tutorial, especially seeing your own design choices really helped! ps: you promised it wouldn’t be 7 months 😝

[@SoundSimulator]

@@solomonspeare1963 I finally completed my move recently, so I should be able to dedicate time to making videos for this channel!! Thanks for the wait!!

[@BurkhardusX]

I have downloaded PD and wanted try it out, but he User Interface is so reduced and not following windows standards for user friendly software. First, there is no toolbox for all available objects. You have one general object and then you have to enter the object type, manually, into the text field. You need to know them or have a list of them. Then second, for example, for playing a sample, I used the readsf~ and the open object, and the open object has no dedicated button to load a sample, you habe to enter the pathname into the object, and since my path contained spaces, I bracketed it in high commata, but all my backslashes were removed automatically and the forward slashes were not accepted, it was too hard to get it working - no success. With Max 8 I was able to get the same example running mich faster. The pop-up menus in MAX are more helpful, there are balloon texts on Topmodell the connection nodes, the property windows are covering more information. Allein all, MAX is a more user friendly software which follows the standards to intuitively work with and getting faster results without consulting much manuals or user groups.

[@lysdexic]

Interesting round up! I’d love to have the time to try PD one day

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you very much! You'll definitely pick up Pure Data super quick!!

[@latanun]

Thanks 4 this video

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you for watching, Lautaro!!

[@gab_gallard]

What's the name of the Paint like Max patch at 1:08?

[@obineg5752]

that is the [lcd] object, which is similar to quickdraw. you can do similar things with jitter, too.

[@user-lk1kt1yg9d]

Thanks for videos! If I get used to Pd, can I use max as well?

[@SoundSimulator]

I strongly believe so! As a Max user, I was able to learn Pure Data very fast! It should work the other way for you!

[@user-lk1kt1yg9d]

I will try it! Your videos are very helpful. Thank you!

[@Harzurner]

Sunvox?

[@jackcimino8822]

We now know that RNBO is a thing. Now we don't have to only use text-based programming to make VSTis! Edit: For hardware, you may also want to consider Axoloti/Akso.

[@TheOleHermit]

This is exactly what I need to know. Been using PD for a couple of weeks, after following a great Teensy synth tutorial by 'Notes and Volts'. That enabled my MIDI controllable waveform generators for lasers project to become functional. But PD's limited help and no element hover tips have made the process very frustrating to develop further, especially regarding a MIDI interface with Cakewalk's DAW and Akai's APC40mkii. Nearly jumped ship to Max, until you just informed my of the price. So, despite your disturbing decapitated, hand waving presentation, the substance of your content has my attention, so I'm on board for your PD tutorial. Thank you for providing the guidance I need.🙏

[@SoundSimulator]

I hope you find the Pure Data tutorials helpful!! The headless entity has been vanquished after the FM synth tutorial by the way!

[@TheOleHermit]

@@SoundSimulator Thank you for the quick reply. Very reassuring to see how attentive you are to your comment sections. (incoming alert!) Still binge watching my way through the rest of your great tutorials. 😎

[@SoundSimulator]

@@TheOleHermit Please feel free to ask questions any time!

[@negazul1211]

I'd add a simple thing : you can't do anything in the DAW world with a Max patch if you don't want to use Ableton. However, Camomile is a free VST that loads Pure Data patches and you can use it wherever you want in the DAW world, which is awesome. So yeah, Max looks pretty, but having to buy a 450$ software just to use patches outside a 300$ software is predatory. And that's from somebody who owns Live since 15 years but stopped using it years ago as it became a fat, CPU-greedy, overloaded (of features) and predatory DAW over time.

[@SoundSimulator]

I would like to explore Pure Data VSTs! Yeaaah, it's been almost 1.5 years since this video came out, and I'm so glad I went with Pure Data for this channel. As much as I love Max, the price makes it hard to recommend to people. What DAW did you migrate to by the way?

[@negazul1211]

@@SoundSimulator This channel will help me a lot when I got time to dive in Pure Data ^^ Well, I don't know yet. I use a lot VCV and I play with my VCV stuff inside Maschine (VCV was very good to teach me the basics, now I want to learn a deeper software). But at some point I'll want to export/record my projects inside a more evolved DAW. I borrowed a friend's Bitwig license, but I'm not thrilled. I relied a lot on resampling & ableton's simpler, so I don't have many choices (I wish I had tho). What DAW are you using ?

[@SoundSimulator]

@@negazul1211 Glad to hear that this channel is helpful! My friend wants me to try out Bitwig too. I'm currently using Ableton. Mainly because of Max For Live.

[@negazul1211]

​@@SoundSimulator It's still an awesome DAW to make music, especially if you use Max. Don't listen to a long-time dissatisfied user like me However, even if Bitwig has a lot of things I don't really like, it's so fast to generate stuff, to modulate everything and to be creative, and it handles CPU usage & multithreading way better than Live. Couldn't look back. I really hope using Camomile to export Pd patches into VSTs will work as expected. But yeah it's still extra steps & slower than using Max4Live

[@jackcimino8822]

HAve you heard of RNBO? Part of it is an official plugin wrapper for Max.

[@PamSesheta]

Just found your channel. Reaktor 6 addict interested in the open source solution.

[@SoundSimulator]

Welcome! We will be using open source (or affordable) tools on this channel!

[@AndyRoidEU]

Idk. I can write music in Makemusic Finale, these seems a bit nooby. Good for interactive installations I suppose.

[@bp094p21]

Sick

[@SoundSimulator]

Thanks!

[@splitta612]

Thanks bro

[@SoundSimulator]

You're welcome, Tucker! Thank you for watching!!

[@christ010]

what is this drawing object in richard devine's patch?

[@obineg5752]

lcd

[@victorlamuerte7884]

thanksss!!!!!!!

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you for watching!

[@MrDaigoRiki]

What is the most important thing to learn Max or Pure data?

[@SoundSimulator]

Great question! Putting together a project is the best way to learn in my opinion. That way, you'll find out what you want to learn the most currently. It's nice to have a goal. But leaving room for exploration is important too! It's ok if the final product is a bit different from what you imagined. And if you get stuck, chances are that Cycling 74 forum has the answer already (haven't really used Pure Data forum before but I'm sure it's the same thing!). And Help patch will be your best friend. And honestly (as corny as it may sound) having fun is the most important thing. Good luck and have fun!

[@VarionJimmy]

Unfortunately pd is not very well documented.

[@Triassic321]

Épico.

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank

[@FatherJohnCarmody]

Max is free if you get an older version

[@SoundSimulator]

Didn't know that! I could find any info but is 7 or at least 6 free? 7 is veeery close to 8.

[@GertBoers]

Subbed. ;)

[@SoundSimulator]

Thank you, Gert!!

[@jasic1970]

i coded for 5 years and find max super unintuitive, weird to use and clunky af.

[@SoundSimulator]

Yeah, I can imagine going from text-code -> Max being a really different experience from Max -> text-code.

[@melasonos6132]

Sc is the best. The oscillators sound amazing. It is harder though

[@SoundSimulator]

SuperCollider is cool! But I do think the learning curve is a bit steeper than Max or Pure Data for people who never coded before.

[@melasonos6132]

@@SoundSimulator I agree, it is harder. However, I'm not a programmer and have learned it. The community is really welcoming too. All 3 languages are great though IMO.

[@EMBYMATTHEWS]

Max 4 life

[@oo0O08]

Its a shame that Max is the one you have to pay for because it is easier to learn than Pure Data and also has way more quality of life features and is overall just feels better to patch.

[@blindianajones]

What the hell is this shaky hand headless dude talking about?

[@SoundSimulator]

MaxMSP and Pure Data!

[@mannibimmel09]

Weird. No head...