Mayor Ford clueless about LRT during debate on Jul 16 2013

[@astosic]

Thank you so much for posting this. What a clear and utter demonstration of ignorance on your mayor's part. How anyone can support him at all is mind boggling.

[@funvideofan1625]

“Is there an LRT In Toronto?” “There’s one called St. Clair” “No that’s a streetcar line” “And that’s a COMPLETE disaster” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@patrickobrien4302]

2022 and the unfinished Eglinton LRT runs mostly down the middle of Eglinton, a complete eye sore, and a complete disaster for gridlock in Toronto. This guy smoked crack and he still had this issue down better than all of city counsel did at the time. Way to build a world class city.

[@reardelt]

This is why the West is in decline.

[@RandomPerson-dl8qs]

@@patrickobrien4302 1. This debate wasn't about the Line 5 Eglinton LRT 2. Ford didn't even know what LRT meant 3. More than half of the stops for the Eglinton LRT are underground, and the above-ground stops are in areas where public transportation is highly utilized, alternative plans would have cut out over a dozen stops Nah I think he didn't have this issue down better than city council

[@biggiesmalls1313]

​​@@RandomPerson-dl8qs you're so right. Matlow will be proven correct in a couple of years when this subway line is built. Losing the SRT for a subway is nonsensical.

[@mE98765mE98765mE]

Scary how little the mayor knows about the RT in Scarb. Even though I would personally like a continuous subway line, the mayor is either ignorant or lying in his arguments against the LRT plans.

[@machprime]

"Anyways ... you know what ..." *Shrugs* That's the answer an elementary school kid gives when he can't answer a question posed to him by a teacher. That should NOT be the answer from the Mayor of Toronto

[@Brent_Mosey]

I've never understood the argument or the disdain towards the LRT. Growing up blocks away from the Scarborough Town Centre, I used the LRT quite often. It runs above ground (elevated) so (currently) it doesn't have any contact with traffic. The new plans look the same. Am I missing something here?

[@dubenick]

You cannot "move on" if the man with the most power is purposely misdirecting the discussion.

[@Psy500]

LRT offers more coverage as you can build them faster and cheaper, subways are only useful after you have LRT to feed them, else they are inefficient.

[@mqzpt]

To get Mark II or Mark III trains on the Scarborough RT and widen the tunnel after Ellesmere would be only $440M instead of 3.3B on a one stop subway! KEEP THE RT!

[@funvideofan1625]

Exactly!

[@TOMZAUGG]

Does anybody else remember the proposed plan for transit city that was handed out a few years ago? I thought it was incredibly cost effective and created a phenomenally convenient grid allowing more riders to travel greater distances in less time, allowing the bus fleet to be trimmed considerably, which should translate to lower operating costs. The rest of Canada runs on LRTs, they're cheap to build, so the city would get greater distance for price. BTW St. Clair is not an LRT, its a STREETCAR.

[@davidng8732]

Besides, many of Paris's subway lines are much older than Toronto's. Many lines run older and slower trains, with large sections of above ground tracks, and have stations that are twice as close as Toronto's subway lines--all factors that would put them in the LRT category rather than heavy subway lines we normally associate with an underground, high capacity transit.

[@MetallicanToronto]

Oh my god. He Rob ford is a disaster everywhere..how did he get elected?

[@bigsharkattackingyourightn5790]

0:18 the 'he doesn't know that' in the background

[@Psy500]

No he is not, the LRT line in question has it own right of way, there is no road for it to tear up. This is basically saying laying tracks down on grass requires you to dig up a road.

[@emdelacruz7836]

Poor Matlow ;(

[@Gardimus]

That are also far more dense than Toronto. Toronto needs mass transit specifically designed for it, and the LRT is an attempt to move more people from more stops with the same efficiency as a subway all at a lower cost.

[@thechekerbord]

The LRT's we are getting are much longer more extensive vehicles than the streetcars we have and are getting. LRT vehicles are more like up to a 3 car train than the streetcars we are using (they also use different gauges than our streetcars). Both share similarities but from a cost effective standpoint LRT is the best choice for suburbs like Scarborough. They are a lot more cost effective to run than buses and its not practical to spend billions expanding subways throughout our suburbs.

[@martytu20]

You realize both Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-University-Spadina line all have sections that are ABOVE ground, right? Hardly delays any of those trains in a rainy day. In this case, Scarborough LRT would be similar to how subways operate, with more parts above ground than below.

[@davidng8732]

Yeah, which happens to be the route already in existence since 1985, almost track for track, spike for spike. It'd be a matter of unfolding the current TTC map and then say "see that blue line", but even that is too hard for Ford.

[@chowmikki]

Matlow should have photos on hand to show the mayor that he's talking about a raised, railway type of SRT that is presently in place. The mayor has a one track mind thinking of streetcars. Ford's ass-istance should have taken Robbie on the present RT ride, it's a 14 min ride from the SCT to Kennedy subway. Anyone who always drives doesn't know.

[@TheLuckySaGe]

Such professionalism. It brings tears to my eyes just being able to witness such great leadership! What a fantastic role model, I'm going to show this to my nieces of nephews....they will learn from the best!

[@sheckylee5760]

Subways are definitely more efficient in terms of speed , reliability, and passenger load compared to LRT's. They are overall better than LRT's , except in price, and that's what that's the issue. When the LRT's and roads surrounding them are jammed with people/cars in the future, people will be demanding subways anyways...

[@patrickobrien4302]

8 years later and your comment strikes true.

[@cnman234]

Ford knows nothing about LRT's. Plus subway cost about 140 million for every km and about 30 Million for per km for LRT. Rob Ford is a total fool.

[@davidng8732]

Not to mention the right of way for the LRT already exists. Construction on existing infrastructure, much of it on surface, is much faster than boring new tunnels (the York University-Vaughan extension is taking 10 years). There are some advantages to a subway...but at the same time, a financially much riskier project.

[@albboy96]

Bob Jones lol in a way they kind of do rip up lanes but those lanes taken by lrts will be added on the sides of the roads, causing no disruptions to traffic while at the same time providing commuters with rapid and efficient LRT transit

[@spoobnooble]

The current Transit City plan calls for an LRT extension from the end of the Sheppard terminus at Don Mills all the way into Scarborough. Considering our current leadership in Toronto, I suspect not even that is going to get built. If they were really serious about making Sheppard a useful line, they would extend it west to the Downsview station on the University line. But again, with the current leadership here in Toronto (etc. etc.)

[@davidng8732]

Well, in the end, LRT vs. subway is not a choice between good vs. crappy, but which one is a better way to spend the money available, and for that, I give it to LRT. With London and Paris--in their suburbs and newer neighbourhoods, you see a lot of LRT's too.

[@funvideofan1625]

10 Years Later, Still funny as hell 😂

[@Mart_7512]

Yeah, the Ford brothers only care about automobiles.

[@davidng8732]

For Scarb., it's a bit of a toss-up: LRT is a more "conservative" choice. The province assumes all the risks of going over budget, it *can* be designed to be combined with the Eglinton line, more people live within walking distance of the line. Subway is a riskier choice money-wise, but will spur further development of Scarb.'s city centre, saves people time on an extra transfer, and let's face it--most SRT users get off at STC to take the bus, so the walking distance point only goes so far.

[@MikeAllan_SEOCoach]

Does Rob Ford realize that most of the subway in Scarborough is actually at grade and above ground? He took a late night trip on the subway a year or so ago, maybe he thought because it was dark outside the subway was underground?

[@davidng8732]

LRT costs about $180 million/km, give or take. Subway costs about $250-300 million/km. LRT's capacity is about 3 times of what the Scarborough RT carries, subway has about 7 or 8 times--but keep in mind the Scarborough RT is only at capacity during the rush hours. Both technology works in the end, but LRT is cheaper, easier to give Toronto more routes (going back to your point, which I also agree).

[@op8ztv]

its closed now lol, what's next?

[@CraigMcAnuff]

It's pretty sad that the mayor doesn't know anything about the LRT line in Scarborough.

[@TheBruro22]

I used the DLR line in east London when I lived there in 2006. It worked very well

[@davidng8732]

Also interesting to note--the report Matlow was talking about *only* requires a high school level education for one to comprehend. Nothing more complicated than money, map, "does this type of train do the job" kind of detail.

[@XxSonicSnipzxX]

What was he saying about centennial college I live in the apartment building across the street so I was ordering

[@n00b1f13d]

In case you hadn't noticed, downtown has no room for a raised and separated LRT line without tearing up either roads or buildings.

[@rainmakerart]

Correction, Moscow, London, and Paris all have LRTs that support their train system.

[@AnthonyGugliotta]

Since it has a dedicated lane and right-of-way transit signals the St. Clair streetcar is by definition an LRT. The bigger issue is that Toronto needs an improved transit system. Futile chamber debates, and online rants, don't solve the problem. If you live in Toronto you have the right to call your councillor and voice your opinion. Please do your research.

[@davidng8732]

I used to take the SRT everyday. Outside the morning and afternoon rush, that part of town couldn't even fill up at 350-passenger SRT, never mind a 1500-passenger subway. Anyway, the council just voted to go for subway as long as the Fed pays half. I don't know, any one part of Canada can only say "we need this money to build something" so many times before the Fed says no (say, to the much needed DRL).

[@sessionfiddler]

Infrequent service? How so? This is an extension of the Bloor Danforth line. Trains proceed north east from Kennedy to McCowan, right? This isn't a spur line to nowhere. It's the same as building Downsview station when Wilson used to be the end of the line.

[@Cidartanis1]

COUGH COUGH....the last time London' population was similar to our was 1873....subways where they make sense....Scarborough doesn't make any sense....maybe area's where the population density is greater (such as Jane St)...but Scarborough would be better served with an LRT at this point

[@Mart_7512]

Tbh, traffic lights & North American-style crosswalks suck. Let's replace them with roundabouts & raised crosswalks to stop speeders while keeping everyone going without traffic lights & stop signs. EDIT: Don't forget this rule of life, never trust those who won't give valid answers.

[@davidng8732]

Let's clarify, too, that the Dockland *Light* Railway, even though it carries 7 times the passengers as the Scarborough RT currently does, is still considered a "light rail". Some people here seem to get the impression that "light rails" cannot run on tracks separated from street traffic, or has to use trains the size of streetcars, or that it is somehow "second rate". None of which is true.

[@davidng8732]

Actually, between 21 miles of Docklands Light Railway, 17 miles of Tramlink (both serving London's outer areas); and 3 tramway lines in Madrid's Metro system (17 miles in total, also in the outer areas), both cities are served by LRT's. They just don't use that exact acronym.

[@MMfilmProduction]

Think of the LRT as a subway, it will not effect current roads and much of it will be underground. Rob Ford clearly exhibited that he hasn't taken the time to LEARN about the proposed line and he doesn't care to either. It's sad really, because he is supposed to be a leader. A leader listens to all people concerned and takes his emotions out of the equation when deciding what's best for the city. One must listen to learn and not just wait for their turn to bash something.

[@davidng8732]

It will end up being an extension from Kennedy, but will likely follow a difference course than the current RT, because a 6-car subway will need a bigger turn radius than some of the curves along the current RT. What I have been saying is that just because it is a continuous line to Kipling, doesn't mean the TTC won't short turn part of the line for parts of the day, if there aren't enough people taking it.

[@pkralik001]

You have one - it's called the Sheppard line, and I've heard statistics that say it is barely used. I've been on it and there are stops where nobody gets on or off (i.e., Bessarion).

[@ThomasJM]

Um not sure where you got that info from the tunnel for the LRT's are smaller also the elevated sections would not be able to handle the weight of a single subway car

[@jmzimmerman1984]

This in itself is enough of a reason to say he is unfit for the job

[@johnbidochka2795]

You cannot possibly have sane, reasonable and productive discussions on matters like this if the "leadership" does not understand the basics. Of course, that may be by design.

[@davidng8732]

You do realize that not an inch of the existing Scarborough RT crosses, or runs along, any roads, right? And that the LRT line is just going to replace that same RT line, almost track-for-track, right?

[@girlfromipanema3231]

even montreal has a better subway system than us... and they have a little more than half our population. That's disgraceful.

[@eddiehosa]

It's $1.2B, funding not guaranteed and the proposed LRT was subway-like (dedicated lines, does not cross traffic).

[@davidng8732]

BART in San Francisco does that to some of their lines. They have short turns for some of their (non spur) lines during evenings and weekends.

[@rumun7430]

at 4:25, the councillor should have walked up to ford and punched him out!

[@jimbobogie8349]

The drawback to converting the Scarborough LRT to subway is the loss of several stations-and Scarborough Town Centre will be "taken out of the loop" as a transit hub. Building a subway to McCowan and Sheppard makes sense, but only if you have access to the CP right-of-way for GO Transit. The CP track runs through Leaside and crosses Young at Summerhill, then runs parallel to Dupont Street. It also has a single track from Agincourt to Peterborough-unfortunately that track would need major refurbishing before you could put any kind of train on it.

[@jimbobogie8349]

My bad-of course I mean "Yonge"-damn Spellcheck! :)

[@davidng8732]

Well, I guess that depends on where you draw the line between subways and LRT: Capacity of a two-car Docklands train: 568 Capacity of a Toronto Rocket train: 1460 Capacity of Flexity Outlook to be used on Eglinton LRT: 250--1000, depending on how many cars they're running (likely 2 or above, so, 500+)

[@davidng8732]

It's basically what Scarborough have now, with a few key differences: 1) the current Scarborough RT is a "guinea pig" version, Vancouver (and other cities) uses an upgraded version of it with much more success, 2) the Scarborough RT is a little 15-minute ride. Transit lines tend to be more successful when they are longer. Between building the Eglinton LRT and the existing Bloor subway, Scarborough could make much better use of transit. An LRT can be built for less money though.

[@menathd2394]

upgrading the srt to newer icts vehicles can be built for way less money. its cheaper than the lrt and the subway

[@Duhya]

This guy is just mad that his mayor doesn't even know what he is talking about. Understandable.

[@eddiehosa]

If the TTC is really out of funds, they could do short turns (aka. terminate at an earlier stop and turn back). They already do short turns on the Yonge line.

[@davidng8732]

They have about 60 miles of LRT in New Jersey. So, depends on whether you think handful of office towers and the pickle plant near Scarborough Town Centre to look more like the Empire State Building or the suburbs of New Jersey.

[@davidng8732]

Except every city you have cited, all have LRT's (serving parts of the cities similar to the suburbs of Scarborough: Moscow--Line 12 is a light rail running N-S, starting from the south end of Line 9 (probably a little bigger than the SRT); London--the Docklands Light Railway serves an area that was re-developed in the 1980s (similar capacity to the future Eglinton Line); Paris--surface trams running in their suburbs.

[@dznrboy]

Wow what an educated response, did it take you a whole day to write that. Good for you, someone give this guy a gold star!

[@JuanchoCE]

Those cities also have LRT in their less dense neighborhoods. Toronto needs a new subway line and its a DRL

[@AlOliverBrown]

Clearly Ford believes streetcar is the same as Light Rail (LRT). Does he not know that Subway is for much higher density areas but at a high cost. For most of the areas in Toronto, LRT will provide the best match for capacity for the dollar. It can even run underground so can provide better capacity than light metro systems such as Skytrain. Subway costs are approx. 10 times that of LRT.

[@Superlativesweetie]

Oo, can you link to it so the rest of us can see?

[@davidng8732]

Everything you said after "unless" already exists today. In fact, 6 lanes overpasses were built on Lawrence Ave. and Ellesmere Rd. just to avoid road/railway crossings.

[@davidng8732]

Scarborough needs a line that is cheap to expand. A subway line is about 50% more expensive than an LRT line. But even an LRT carries 3 times as many people as the current RT line. With a subway, you can bet on every other train on the Bloor line ending at Kennedy, and you'll get to wait 10 minutes for a 10 minute trip from Town Centre to Kennedy. You can actually get more frequent service with smaller trains serving a low-density area.

[@davidng8732]

I don't understand why Toronto City Council can possibly backtrack on an approved project to re-debate any of this. I live in Calgary, and this city's 25-year LRT plan is already laid out years ago. There is no flavour-of-the-month debate on transit here.

[@christopher8116]

I agree. Admire people who are smart and know the facts.

[@davidng8732]

I thought the Sheppard LRT already involves committed money. But then I thought the Scarborough LRT is in the same state too. The *really* logical ends to Sheppard would be Scarborough Town Centre at the east, and Downsview at the west, but those extensions are even more expensive, and for large sections of it, very little to gain in ridership. Same problem as Calgary's SE LRT--higher density areas are too far from existing lines.

[@JinJinnJinny]

The issue with the Sheppard line was that it should have extended out to Scarborough, had it done that the ridership would had increased. As the population of Toronto increases, in the future the investment will pay off. Not that it would matter anyways since the Canadian government would not be able to fund this, and the LRT will be back again.

[@beezwaxx]

Technically a street car is a LRT or LRV when it separates from traffic like it is on St Clair.

[@LavenderBlume]

I live in Toronto and can confirm that those of us who know what a streetcar is, and what an LRT is, know that they are NOT the same thing. We've got streetcars, which do in fact run on existing roads, e.g. the St. Clair line to which Ford refers, or on Queen St and King St. I take the 504 streetcar every day and can vouch for the fact that it is VERY DIFFERENT from the Scarborough LRT. You may be wrong, but at least you're not our mayor.

[@davidng8732]

He probably meant the one between Midland and Kennedy, the one the Scarborough RT currently runs along, but by that point in the video, both Matlow and Ford were just rambling and yelling over each other.

[@davidng8732]

The original point had to do with LRT's service life compared to that of a subway. And that has nothing to do with city sizes, just how often the trains are going to be used, and for how long. City size is a matter of capacity, and TTC have hired people to do studies to show LRT will work (expensive), and subway will work (but they will overbuild).

[@grrlinglasses]

If you are in an above ground mode of transportation you are more likely to see new places to eat and shop and will frequent those neighbourhoods. That builds the economy. Maybe we should look at underground tunnels for cars like the Holland Tunnel in NYC.

[@TheJordanReport]

You should have mentioned that the whole reason that first draft SRT didn't go through was because of politics arguing that the current vehicles (ICTS) would be better and the province threatened to withhold funding unless council agreed.

[@Baseshocks]

London just spent 30 billion adding new subways... LRT still follows street lights. In the suburbs its great long stretches of streetlights and in some areas even non-intrusted lines. Question why is no one arguing over the Vaughn Mills extension? People only seem to go up in arms when talking about building east to the low income. Continued.

[@danielbmw5525]

What does knowing the number of lines have to do with whether it is worthwhile to get an LRT line? That's like asking the mayor how many subway lines there are or to name all the subway lines during a debate on whether to extend the subway.. Went way off topic

[@davidng8732]

That's in North York, actually. But, same idea--the line *is* rarely used, it is the worst of every world--busy enough to keep it running (less frequent than other lines), not busy enough to expand anywhere, no one uses the stations in the middle, costly to maintain relative to ridership. Apparently, 1 poorly planned line out of 4 isn't enough for TTC, 2 out of 4 poorly planned and rarely used lines ($250 million/km) seems to be the way to go for Ford.

[@ccmanize]

Light rail literally means that the cars/trains themselves are lighter than heavy rail such as the TTC subway. In fact, there are other cities like San Francisco that have streetcars running down the middle of the street that are referred to as "light rail lines". Streetcars ARE light rail. You can say the aren't, but you're wrong.

[@Intronrunner]

The Scarborough LRT was a bad idea when it was originally put in to begin with. Even then we were asking for a subway. At Kennedy, you have to exit the train and go up/down 3 floors just to get to the next train.

[@DredWolfster]

As some ppl might know the existing SRT was originally planned as an LRT in the 1970s to run with souped up CLRVs that would have demonstrated their full potential as a vehicle more meant for high speed suburban LRT service. Because the RT was built, Eglinton, Lawrence and Ellesmere were given overpasses, which saves on money for making the future LRT grade separated. I try to be open minded on what Ford's supporters has to say but this video is too much, it needs to go viral.. : (

[@davidng8732]

For comparison: 8 km of LRT extension in Cgy cost $1.4 billion, 2x as much as the orig. est. 1 advantage of LRT in Scarb. is how much of it is already known--routing & technology. The technology to be used for the proposed Scarb. subway is known, but the routing today is a pretty line on a map, that's it. Who is going to cover the cost overruns when (not if) it goes over budget? Scarb.? Or Tor.? Transit projects around the world routinely has a 45% cost overrun to them. Bigger estimate, more $.

[@spencertom2664]

this guy is being soo patient right towards rob fords stupidity... idk how he didnt break something or flipshit

[@JasonRundell]

St. Clair is a street and that's where they're testing the LRT vehicle.

[@SpecialAgentPendrell]

Scarborough doesn't currently have an LRT. It has the SRT which uses the same technology as Vancouver's skytrain. You can ask for a subway all you want, it still isn't justified logistically, financially or by the level of current or projected density in the area. If the subway plan gets funding, which try to remember it doesn't have at the moment, it will take years before construction begins, and because it runs under major roadways will cause years worth of traffic snarls.

[@RichardHartl]

This man, my mayor, is so frustrating to listen to. It really saddens me, truly. I'm embarrassed on behalf of the city of Toronto and its citizens that he "leads" us. So unfortunate!

[@SpecialAgentPendrell]

Do a search on "Seattle LRT" to see what a functioning LRT is like. The one they have there runs from SeaTac airport all the way into downtown and it's great. It's not a streetcar at all. Basically a small subway, runs above ground, elevated and underground.

[@TheBruro22]

Wow the mayor shows his complete ignorance on the matter!

[@trueskiller]

was that nicholas cage?

[@CrazyArtistLady]

Given that the mayor was completely ignorant about the facts and refused to be corrected, I can't say that I blame the Councillor. Listening to that made me want to bang my head on the wall. The mayor is such a train wreak!

[@pandaseatmonkeybums]

I am very happy you posted this-I really am, because Ford needs to be called out on his own BS-but it pains me when someone accuses someone ELSE of "ignorance" without performing some simple proofreading or spellchecking on his or her own comment. It would carry a lot more weight if, when you call someone else "not knowledgeable", you spell words like "separated" and "it's" correctly, just as a bare minimum-and understand plural vs. singular form. Just food for thought for future posts. :)

[@jordapen]

Why does the SRT have to be replaced? Is the lifespan of an LRT only 30 or so years? Subways are heavy duty and last many decades. Wasn't the Yonge line opened in the 1940s? In the long run the subway will pay off.

[@djohnson25]

God, all this is, is extending the Bloor Danforth Subway be three stops. Which I believe are already serviced by the SRT, which I know is lousy, but hence only those Scarberians who are already serviced by the SRT will get improved service. No additional Scarberians will get subway service. What a crock.

[@glorifiedp]

This is like watching Frank Grimes vs. Homer Simpson.

[@DingisMaximus]

On top of all that the land the LRT is going to us can be rented out for a variety of purposes which could help generate money to even help pay for a Subway.

[@davidng8732]

I used to watch the speedometer on the Scarborough RT when I rode it. It read 80 km/h most of the way.

[@muyaho420]

The ridership projection of DRL is way beyond what LRT can carry. That's why the subway is the only option. Scarborough will be running half empty by 2031, and the cost simply doesn't justify. LRT operating cost will be covered by the province, but the subway will be covered by the city.

[@johnatticus4301]

Geez dude, watch the video you're commenting on: the Scarborough LRT won't be running on any road - it will basically take the place of the Scarborough RT with a small extension - it's going to run on it's own track above ground, not crossing any roads.

[@davidng8732]

Sure, and I used to live in Scarborough. The old City of Toronto is badly underserved by subways, I agree. But subway in Scarborough is like subway on Sheppard--some people will take it, but subway costs a lot more to build than LRT (which isn't cheap to begin with). Why overbuild when a cheaper solution that works almost as well will do?

[@TheJordanReport]

Streetcars are LRT's. The current SRT is infact a very early form of LRT. Only it uses linear induction motors, similar to a monorail.