Challenge Rating | Running the Game

Episode 44: What even is CR?
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[@GadoukenRising]

"My right answer is not necessarily your right answer." I think this is the best piece of DM advice.

[@RasmusNJorgensen]

Blatsuura that advice also works for parenting.

[@DamianTheAlien]

Only in specific situations. Be careful not to generalize this to all truth.

[@brentramsten249]

a long time ago i used to ask three questions when building an encounter "is this cool" "does this make sense" "will this wipe my group"

[@dani.meisner]

yes

[@solalabell9674]

now beware there are DMs who want the answers to be yes no and yes

[@Eniroth]

@@solalabell9674 i want the answer to be yes, yes, and yes. i love building painful encounters. My last session the rogue went unconscious twice, and the party found a mimic ring that left the ranger at 1 hp. Idk why i love doing this shit, i just love it. The players do NOT trust me anymore, and will be super cautious about opening any door or chest or whatever they might be opening. Even looking at certain things has them hiding behind cover. And i love it.

[@shanekayat3217]

@@Eniroth my group of 6 new players and 1 old player has had 2 sessions with me so far. In session 1: - I downed a character - I reduced one to 2hp with a specter attack but he passed his save - I reduced another to 1hp with the same attack but he failed his save Session 2 ended with 5 unconscious but stable PCs out of 7 total. I'll tame it back in future for some combats, but holy shit was the fear of death exhilarating for the players.

[@Eniroth]

@@shanekayat3217 i know, rolling dice is fun and all, but with no consequences or repercussions to poor play or bad behavior the impact of every die roll is that much lesser. When my players now roll their dice, the tension in the air is so thick it can be sliced.

[@taylorgay1641]

I watch this channel while feeding my one year old. She has begun to nod her head every time Matt makes a point.

[@catspjs1139]

Omg that is adorable

[@General12th]

One of Matt's bonus languages is Baby.

[@tuptastic304]

r/thathappened

[@lambdamoth]

r/nothingeverhappens

[@LordVader1094]

@@tuptastic304 fugoff

[@bubba000117]

"the (CR)code is more like guide lines than actual rules" GM Barbossa

[@philipkhan7715]

Lmao

[@TexasSnyper]

So the undead video is to help us find the wight answer.

[@Sarivelle]

Get out of here.

[@xAnonymousComedia]

Pronounce it in a British accent and it'll make perfect sense

[@toby7161]

I hate you

[@sillwullivan83]

I adore this

[@suzievandyk6593]

That's not what the ghoul of the video is!!

[@mcolville]

Ahh, when I color correct a video, it undoes the positioning of the images. Got it figured out now, sorry for the weirdness.

[@NothingEbil]

The colour correction is very nice

[@marachime]

At least your hair is cute ;)

[@ddesouz6]

Lol did you just heart your own comment. Love it! Great videos keep up the good work

[@lamarofgolgotha3071]

Where are the stronghold rules Matt?

[@powernade]

I thought it was hilarious, and intentional!

[@89warden]

Hey, here is an idea: a video about the "useless" skills/proficiencies. Making them useful and/or fun.

[@GretSeat]

Come up with that yourself.

[@bjornwild7363]

Garrett Stewart Yeah. Fuck people for making requests. Who do these clowns think they are? Fans?!

[@elgatochurro]

Bjorn Wild if you're a DM, you should give your players some skill challenges for what you want to test. Althetics isn't used alot, give your brutes some athletics tests, try to have enemies shove them. If someone isn't perceptive but better at investigation, give them things to investigate. These skill challenges exist for a reason, have players use them.

[@deplorablemecoptera3024]

Keffington Bear in my game, medicine is connected to making potions, (a potion is just a fantasy drug so some medical knowledge is probably involved) and to knowledge checks based around identifying an illness. I've called for the check in a few other situations as well, but it remains something of an edge case skill. At a stretch, Medicine could be used to judge the psychological state or health of an individual, though insight could be used similarly. my player might ask "do I believe her?" I would have him roll insight, "She seems to believe her statement" "Is she crazy?" This would be a situation for medicine as you are seeking info on illness. The skill probably has more use in some campaigns than others, but honestly you will seldom use it more than other possible skills.

[@jamesharrison142]

One medicine fix I am considering is 1) you need it to use a healers kit. 2) you need to use healers kit charges to use hit die to heal (ala DMG options)

[@brigid6378]

I used cr for a while. once my level 4 players took on an encounter that was considered deadly for a 10th level party and managed to win without a single death, one week later they tpked to an easy encounter. I no longer use cr.

[@justinz9225]

My 5-man level-3 party defeated a Young Green Dragon, which I believe is CR-9. They just planned really well. Conversely, they fought a Black Pudding last week (CR-4) at level 4 and almost got wiped. Sometimes there's no telling what will happen! Much cooler to overpower and encounter and nerf it on the fly by playing them suboptimally or lowering their HP. Or maybe the party lands a good hit and removes a piece of armor to lower the AC.

[@LucidLivingYT]

Justin Z Two of my 6th level PCs almost got killed by a Gelatinous Cube hahaha

[@wolfjack5802]

The thing about challenges is that sometimes even if a challenge should be easy or fair, the dice can betray you and screw you over

[@godminnette2]

This past Friday, my party of six level 4 (though, each of them have some buffs to make them feel more like level 5 in power) players just fought a Wyvern Queen (see: Adult Green Dragon without legendary actions and 18 AC instead of 19) and six wyverns, with the aid of one wyvern and one level 11 warlock, who was a bit of a failure in combat anyways. They went into this knowing it was going to be crazy hard. See, they needed the necromantic heart of the Queen to revive a recently deceased partymember in lieu of any other means of revival. They were told by the clans that hunt these wyverns that this is something rarely done, due to it's insane difficulty. But yet, they wanted to try. The alchemist artificer was able to create five potions of poison resistance, and another potion of poison immunity was obtained, which ended up being an enormous help during the fight. They got a clan to take on the majority of the wyverns while they fought the Queen and her closest wyverns. At the end of the fight, only three partymembers were left standing, all with very low HP (one had 1HP), and no one had died. The partymember was revived.

[@ondrasukdol6654]

The thing with a dragon is quite common. In Lost Mine of Phandelver, you also kill it on level 3, and it's made to be killable

[@justinz9225]

@@ondrasukdol6654 The green dragon is supposed to flee at 50% health in that encounter, actually.

[@thomaslopez9576]

I would totally wear a shirt with "peace" on the front and "out" on the back

[@Briansgate]

4:45 you mention using monsters tactically. This is one of the most common things I've seen with players. Players expect all enemies, be they L1 pigs or L20 wizards, to just blindly walk forward and attack. How dare my npc bards and clerics buff themselves, or rogues utilize sneak attack, or Liches cast spells...!

[@tadious9415]

Yeah definitely know that feeling! Especially with monsters that have high int they know who the squishy spellcaster is. They know that the cleric is the one who keeps healing everyone keeping them alive. They would also want to win shouldn’t they fight with some level of basic tactics? Let alone a lich or archdevil or demon with 25 int or something who is above genius level intelligence?

[@emilegalli9549]

Yeah, this is definitely something to keep in mind. Sometimes the issue is that monsters come with so many extra rules, when you add them on the spot, or when you have a bunch of different ones it's hard to use them all correctly. Sometimes the best things to do is to modify the special abilities of some creatures to something that's easier to understand and to put in practice and that you know will have some impact on the players

[@larkincarmichael4773]

0:31 The moment when he points to his left but the box appears over his face will forever fill me with delight. Comedy!

[@carlopaez4037]

I did the thing you told me not to do. I threw an ogre at my players, at the end of a long hallway, plenty of time to run away. They decided to set up a rope trap and fight the 20 foot tall ogre in a small cramped hallway, and well, our Monk is pink mist now. Colville leason learned, don't throw things at your players that you don't want them to fight.

[@aliciacordero7436]

breaking the same rule, the DM of a game I somewhat recently played threw a giant crocodile at the party to speed them along and get them to advance further into the dungeon... They ended up spending *three* sessions taming it instead.

[@wadespencer3623]

20 foot tall ogre!? How many puberties did HE have!?

[@SpaceSoups]

Have to use a giant boulder next time.

[@concibar4267]

No book ads? Am I the only one worrying about Matt now?

[@mcolville]

Eh I don't want folks to get burned out with that stuff.

[@matthiashavrez]

It's been a few videos now. It's either he forgot, he was too lazy to do it, or he decided not to plug his books every time.

[@dude11579]

Matthew Colville man, I think people understand that a living needs to be made. You're not being like "if you guys buy 10 books this week, I'll put out another video!" You just nicely remind people in a no pressure way "hey, if you like this thing I do you may like this other thing I do". No problem with that.

[@Soenel7]

+Matthew Colville Love your books, and I can't wait for fighter to come out. I even made d&d character based on the green order knights. Plus I gave a friend of mine your books for his b-day and so far he is liking it. Sorry for the Fanboying.

[@nsiepmann]

Just going to say - I've never had a problem with your book ads at the end. They're never demanding, always friendly and polite, and makes it clear that this is a thing that goes both ways - we pay money for a book we may well enjoy, that money goes to you and you use it to make other things we may well enjoy. No objections here.

[@demonicduck6013]

6:30 I'm not sure I like the idea of randomly deciding on the amount of enemies the party should face based on their current state (As you put it, well rested or having good intel). The reason is that I think it punishes the party for planning ahead, conserving their resources and/or trying to discover something about their enemy. If they know you'll give them a fitting amount of enemies based on how prepared they are, then why would they bother preparing? I feel it discourages planning ahead and maintaining spell slots/abilities, and actively punishes the party when they think ahead, which isn't something you want as a DM.

[@unicyclepeon]

I tend to agree with you. I think Matt is more into fudging die rolls and selling the players an illusion, because he finds the results more fun. But I'm more the type to decide what makes sense for an encounter area completely independent of the party. I throw away CR but I dont weigh the scene based on the current party state or readiness. Therefore any encounter may be easier or harder than might make the encounter an epic scene; but that's ok. Our group is more simulationist in style.

[@00savar00]

This really does seem like a matter of preference and GM style, a battle between simulation and story. I'm pretty sure I've fudged HP in every battle I've run, I find it more entertaining and satisfying if every fight(within reason) is a winnable struggle. But some people prefer occasionally mopping the floor or throwing themselves at impossible odds, but personally if I feel the GM has a responsibility not to waste peoples time, to me it should be short or epic.

[@demonicduck6013]

@DM Blackwall I think that's a pretty good and seamless way of making an encounter easier, at least compared to directly adding/removing enemies, but personally, as a player, I'd feel a bit cheated if the DM was contriving an easier encounter for me because I acted rashly or got bad rolls. I prefer to feel like I've earned my victories fairly, and I think making an encounter easier just cheapens the whole thing. Still, to each their own. I totally get why you'd change a situation to suit a party's condition, and why it might even be beneficial in some cases to do so.

[@F4R207]

It won't punish any one because you don't punish in game and you don't tell them (manipulation is the best tool a game master have in entertaining).

[@Kirbykradle]

I think a good counter argument is that you could adjust encounters if you believe they haven't prepared enough (or reward them for preparing a lot). So if the level of preparation is good and they've been very smart -- you can reward them for that. But if they haven't prepared much and you get the feeling they are getting lazy, you can reasonably 'punish' that behavior

[@rentarbeast]

As a new DM (I've only run maybe 10ish sessions) I use exp calculators like Kobold Fight club and the such to get an idea of what to send against my players. But I have taken a liking of adding legendary actions to relatively mundane creatures whom could be bosses or leaders. My most recent example was a revenant I had the party fight where I gave it 3 legendary actions: 1 action to punch 2 actions to "call soldiers" as he was a long dead general who would call his skeleton and shadow soldiers from their graves. I ran the fight pretty poorly, I screwed up a few places, and they were noticed by the players. but other than those mess-ups, they enjoyed the fight and thought the mechanics behind it were pretty good. I like to build my own monsters quite a bit already to fit narrative and make cool and meaningful encounters and story elements so I say to hell with the people that say I must follow the CR system until I'm more experienced, my players (who are mostly way more experienced than me) are enjoying what I'm dishing out and only felt cheated when I did actually cheat them in the revenant fight by doing something I shouldn't have. I enjoyed the video and liked that you gave different views on the system rather than just saying use this or do that like some other channels do at times.

[@Vogelkinder]

I find "Kobold Fight Club" is a good start to setting up combat encounters.

[@elecblush]

My players don't know how much they can thank Kobold Fight Club for not being tpk'd during the first few sessions i ran. Still use it as a check to see if i might have missed something or if my thinking in an encounter is wrong.

[@lydiamendez2706]

That's actually a really cool idea for a boss! Mind if I steal that for a campaign I'm gonna start running soon?

[@noelmock]

I think that CR is great to get you started, but once you start to get the feel for what the CRs mean, you can start to build on instinct. At least, after years of DMing, that is how I have come to do it. As Matt says, do it the way that works best for you!

[@rentarbeast]

Leonardo Mendez Go for it, I'm glad you like the idea.

[@guilmon182]

I've been DMing for maybe around a year now, and I've found that I actually do my best work with the bare minimum preparation and the pressure of on-the-spot improv. You've been a massive help and inspiration. Keep it comin'!

[@zenithdreamer4165]

At 10:23 I went to wipe something off my screen at the exact place that Matt recoiled from and it actually scared me.

[@docnevyn5814]

No love for Kobold Fight Club here?

[@Raphaelus13]

I tell as many DM's as possible about it. Technology really is the default, not the weird aid.

[@ddesouz6]

Lots of people are mentioning this site. I just checked it out now. I've never used it but it looks pretty cool

[@blakebrockhaus347]

Doc Nevyn he's mentioned it before

[@SamRandolph]

I would definitely recommend it if you'd like to see what the official rules say about your encounter's difficulty without having to do the math by hand. I don't always follow the results (so-called "deadly" encounters are often more than manageable for the party if they know what they're doing), but I regularly plug my encounters into KFC just to get a sense of how tough they will be by default. This even works for custom monsters (which I use all the time), since it's just based on CR.

[@rakedos9057]

I find Kobold Fight Club wonderful. The calculation is accurate (compared to others website) and really helpful for any encounter. I also use it just to toy around and see what I can throw at them. I really think that CR and encounter difficulties are great tools for newbie DM (like me) if it's nicely done and easy to calculate like in the 5E. It helps to grasp if an encounter will be average or deadly which happens if a new DM don't use that.

[@0Rozzy]

That Undead video looking like Half-Life 3 status right now.

[@mcolville]

Bro have I ever let you down?

[@pancakesown]

Matt go to bed it's 3 am (love your work)

[@0Rozzy]

Matthew Colville, Nope. Not yet!

[@jimmurphy1591]

all tools are great, but Matt is completely right that you need to change for players. start will the basics and the tools and you will learn from there what to do. the stress will be much less as well

[@Thaxsar]

"No ad here at the end for my books..." That is an ad Matt lol.

[@axebane]

I swear I've noticed a trend where you open with "So I was in the middle of working on X video when I had an idea for this video". It's... interesting to see.

[@WadeWilsonKPop]

*HOLY CRAP* I was *JUST* thinking about my next encounter's CR problems, Matt! This is *VERY* timely! Thank you, and keep doing what you do! On my end, I use an alternative CR chart I grabbed from a redditor's homebrew. *HOWEVER,* I don't compute CRs on the fly, but rather I've created several preset encounters weeks before I ran the campaign. In cases when I needed to run a truly random encounter, I go with what monsters make sense in the current location, despite character levels! If there's a dragon there, I say they see it in the distance flying or sleeping, to give them enough time to decide whether to flee or fight.

[@theDMLair]

Deciding which monsters to use and then punching the numbers to figure out how many to include in the encounter is fun for me. (And I'm not even an accountant.) With everything that's going on in a session and everything I need to keep track of, I'd rather not try to wing building an encounter on the fly. I definitely agree: there is no right way. Different things work for different people.

[@rodrigoleonhart1846]

never left pornhub so fast

[@keganbancroft3617]

just ran my first session as a dm thank you Matt for these videos to help make that happen

[@quetzalcouatl]

I gave up the CR system in the 2nd or 3rd session of 5e. When my group came across some orcs I ended up just going with 1 orc for each player + a couple of extra orc warlocks. I did this primarily because the group size could change session to session so it was just easier to use my gut and throw down a bunch of enemies that I figured would be around about decent challenge for the PCs at the table.

[@johannesdolch]

CR is basically useless other than giving a rough idea. e.g. An undead encounter where the players have a well build cleric and paladin can be a cakewalk while the same encounter can be deadly as hell when the players don't have specific anti-undead capabilites. That's just one example of things that are not factored into CR.

[@mirthfulArtist]

I've had a lot of trouble with challenge rating, and I've seen a lot of people sort of dismiss it, but I have yet to find an adequate replacement that a new dm might use. I understand CR is built around the idea that you have ~6 hard encounters per in-game day, but my sessions are only twice a month and 2 hours long, and combat is really slow...I really can not put that many fights in without grinding the plot to a screeching halt (stretching one in-game day through several irl months to fit all the combat in). How can I tell what will challenge my players in combat if they only have, say, 2 fights per day?

[@jthomas6080]

Check out kobold fight club online and go for a deadly encounter

[@dirk_gently]

Curious to see the length of the undead video when even Matt calls it beefy. Looking forward to a 9 hour undead master's class!

[@JT1698]

Does Jim Murphy have a KZbin tactical d&d channel?

[@SharkyShocker]

9:15 Exactly what I was gonna comment XD. I totally think CR is bogus and shouldn't be used whatsoever. According to its rating system if I were to put my 5 level 2 characters against 10 goblins it would be labeled as extremely dangerous. However, if I were to put my players against 2 specters instead it says that it's a medium leveled battle... A single specter by itself has about a 20% chance that when it hits one of my players it /kills/ that player. On the other hand the goblins might knock 1 maybe 2 out before the healer bring 1 up and the other two take out 2-3. Then they do this again. Finally there are 4-6 goblins left. With the current situation, while it may be close, the players are likely to win and no one will die. Now with the Specters it effectively has 44 HP per Specter due to its resistance to basically everything the players have. If the Specters were to attack the same person then that person would almost certainly die. If they were to try and heal the wounded nothing would happen as characters who have their HP drained by the Specter can't regain them. So with the Specter fight I'd say there's around a 40%-50% chance that a player in the group, a 10%-15% chance that 2 people will die, and about a 5% chance that the entire group will be defeated. With the Goblin fight I'd say there's around a 15% chance that a character dies and a 10% chance that the party is actually defeated/killed. To summarize: Undead are dangerous, and groups of creatures have too high of a multiplier. . . . Bogus is a fun word

[@jesah1483]

Hi! Six years late to the party but first time DM coming up this Sunday. I just wanted to say I found this discussion very comforting, so THANK YOU!

[@Weemadaggie]

I dropped using CR for anything than the KFC index search, like Matt. My husband and best friend are quite good at tactics to the point where deadly encounters by the book were straight up trivial for them. I tried experimenting to see if there was some calculation I could use instead. Like double deadly encounter (Nope), triple ( /handwaggle), encounters for groups 1, 2 or 3 levels higher (nope, nope). Double-Double was too much. I wasted so much time on figuring out a system. Winging it is the way to go.

[@OkamiG15]

Quite honestly, from skimming through the encounter-building section of the DMG, I accidentally used CR's as a range and completely skipped over the more strict system. It's been going well, but I've quickly figures out that using them as a range can limit the types of encounters you make. Not in a bad way, but if you pull a CR 5 monster from the book, your instinct is to pull more CR 5 monsters, and like you explained in the video a more interesting encounter comes from using the Infantry-Captain idea. The only thing I really struggle with is passing intel to the players.

[@danjal87nl]

I do think CR is "better" in 5e than in say Pathfinder. Because two characters of the same class are more likely to be of equivalent power in 5e due to the limited content available. There's just less to tweak. Especially if you play without feats. The more content you allow? The more varied the performance of two characters of the same class may be. Beyond that though? Even if you hand two identical characters to two different players (one new and the other a veteran) their effective CR equivalent would be very different. Characters are different, players are different... How can CR ever be accurate.

[@sneckie]

I want to start running WITHOUT CR if I can. I bought a few pregen adventures and once I start making my own, I'd rather figure it out for myself than become dependant on an abstract system.

[@joshuarichardson6529]

I'm 90% with you here. I also ignore challenge rating, and I've every old-school in that I see all the rules outside of character creation as optional. (In my last game I didn't even give monsters HP, I just wrote down the damage they took and decided by fiat when they were "bloodied" and thus at half HP) To counterbalance this, I offer the player 5 extra feats at character creation, under the assumption that "you're going to need them." If they want to fudge their stats, like for some reason in their character backstory, that's fine as long as it applies to all players at the table. I care about balance among the players, so no one is more powerful than their fellow adventurers. As for the monsters, I can control them, and the challenge rating can [insert obscene gesture here]. I've never understood those GMs who complain that their players are overpowered. If the players are curb-stomping the encounters, just add more enemies. That's what rituals, summoning spells, and wandering monsters are for. If the encounter is too much for the team, they always have the option to flee. The villain will mock them for doing so, but they get to live. The one area I disagree with you is in your love of 3rd edition. Sorry, I'm very much a 4th ed fan, as I hate having to babysit my players at the low levels. Every system of D&D before 4th made 1st level characters too weak for my taste. (I know that's personal taste, and thus entirely subjective) My philosophy is to give the players as much power as they need to fall in love with their character, and then throw things at them that offer a challenge at their power level. I also believe one should force the PCs to interact with the world on a more personal (rather than violent) level, with a private estate, a list of friends, family, employees, pets, etc. I'm considering writing up a set of rules for D&D for social class advancement, "leveling" your relationship with the various factions in the game, and building a power-base (mansion, castle, floating island palace, etc.) where your family and various employees (maids, butler, gardener, farm-hands, etc) all live and work, to draw the players more into the non-dungeon crawling parts of the game. Actually, come to think of it, maybe I should get off the internet and start writing it.

[@rdizzy1]

Matt had a video though where he specifically said almost all players will die fighting rather than retreat in his experience. I think that is true as well.

[@suekonzak1612]

In 10 years of running games, players have only ever completely avoided combat (record is 6 sessions in a row), or died to the last fighter, retreat isn't really an option. I've even started campaign with the header of, "remember, retreat is always an option, so you can always use it", just to have them wipe themselves on a BBG they hunted down too vigorously. Also, the 5th ed. DMG has rules for renown/relationship advancement stuff that actually gives a very solid guideline in my experience.

[@martinsgaming_coc4395]

hehe, me an accounting major listening to this and thinking, What? Using a budget to create an encounter sounds amazing! Then he mentioned that only accountants would enjoy that. Guess this confirms I made the correct career choice lol

[@joshprice4855]

I more or less use CR to find creatures roughly in the party's range Edit: I always tinker with the stat block after that since a lot of vanilla monsters I have used get a mud hole stomped in them.

[@invisibledooley]

I look at the monster's HP and try to guestimate how much damage they can do on a round. If they are supposed to be a tough monster that will drop a PC every round ok, but that should be the boss battle because we don't have all that many PCs to face it.

[@alexinkster3246]

I came to this video wanting to know how the CR works.... I left wanting to just throw monsters at my PC's and just see what sticks. This was a great advice video. Thanks Matt!!

[@firedog2k9]

I like how Matt saying "no ad for my books" is inadvertently an ad because it makes you more curious not being told about that kind of thing.

[@MikeScarbro]

This was the best video thumbnail in a while. Keep up the gesticulations and facial expressions, Matt!

[@JackRussellPuppy]

I never played D&D before but . . . I wanna play a campaign with this guy.

[@taigness]

I think exploring typical characteristics for Brutes, Controllers and Artillery might make for an interesting episode. "What are you looking for in a good artillery type monster?"

[@GaaMacgfx]

I usually use the CR system to calculate the encounter level and always worked for me. Hard encounters are hard and medium encounters are medium. The problem comes when the players are fighting only 1 creature.

[@thescoon1]

I've had this problem too. The experience of having that one menacing and scary creature as a boss, is something that I think a lot of DM's want to give their players though, and it feels like, based on the CR system in 5e, that you're always putting something more lethal in front of them than you actually are, and thus it always feels too easy.

[@DingusKhan42]

I was fortunate enough to DM for the first time with a group more experienced than me, and when I mentioned CR they all pretty much immediately said not to use it and just build encounters I thought would be fun. Worked pretty well for us!

[@markhaigh4167]

I like your name

[@mcolville]

Well I like yours!

[@williamlanders308]

I just had this discussion yesterday with a couple of my players. Started the campaign using CR system, and they all complained that the encounters were too hard. Stopped using it and started throwing higher level enemies at them and now they complain less and feel the encounters are more fair.

[@LAJackson123]

"On the fly" is where I live best. I enjoy a healthy amount of prep work, but as you say, just in bullet point form. At times I've had to create a scenario out of thin air because I just simply did not have time to prep the week before. I wouldn't recommend this all the time, however, they turn out to be some of the most memorable and empowering sessions of the year. Cheers.

[@jeremydavis6209]

I threw 4 chuuls at my lvl 4 party where there was a lot of room and they saw them coming and it was a cake walk, then I threw 1 gelatinous cube and 2 oozes in a narrow hallway where they were surprised and it was almost a tpk. Environment and preparation determine a cr more than anything. That's why I play it loose and on the fly

[@brunoschmiedtfalcao5392]

When Matt has been planning the undead video for ages and he is still planning, you know it'll be an extremely long video. Get keen lads.

[@justice6300]

First, I love your work! This series is awesome. Regarding this video, I would add that encounters should not always be at the same level of difficulty for a given party. I build some encounters to be easy, some moderate, some very hard, and some impossible requiring retreat. I mix them to tell a story and make the world more real within the fantasy setting.

[@davisdalmanis3809]

2:17 Is there a website that show monster level instead of CR? Or did you mean Challenge Rating? There was a recent game with new DM where we had four 5th level characters vs three CR8 Assassins it was TPK ofc because DM thought that CR is the same as PC lvl and we should be able to fight three lvl8 chars. But CR or Encounter Rating (ER) is calculated by adding with logarithmic scale so ER for three CR8 would be ER20 And the real level of CR8 creature is in 12-17

[@Folsomdsf2]

Most people are confused that there is no such thing as monster level. Also that recent game you were likely playing hoard of the dragon queen(or the dm yoinked that part out and put it in your campaign). That encounter was put in as a mistake and fixed to be veterans in errata :)

[@SamRandolph]

+Notorious revolutionary, Tommy J: Agreed but if you're running 5e you'll want to use Kobold Fight Club instead: kobold.club/fight/

[@SamRandolph]

I am not that familiar with 3.5 unfortunately so not sure. :( It's frustrating that Wizards doesn't build tools of their own like this. One thing I really like about Pathfinder (even though I'm not a big fan of 3.5 et al) is that almost all information about the game is easily available online. And not behind an obnoxious paywall like D&D Beyond...

[@SamRandolph]

Definitely! 3.5 has SOOOO many sourcebooks. Without them being properly published digitally in the first place, it'd be an absolute nightmare to get that shit added - especially if you try to account for the "build it just like a character" monster building option.

[@justinz9225]

It does roughly equal party level, but your DM is not supposed to add the CRs together and cross ref them with the party levels. A creature of CR 5 is supposed to be an average challenge for a party of level 5 (3-5 players). This is all in the DMG, I'm not sure why he/she decided to make up their own CR system that doesn't work.

[@RichardKurbis]

I don't "do" challenge rating... I DO tell my players that I don't, so they are well aware that some things may be more dangerous than anticipated. But I don't overkill my monster roster for TPK's As long as you let your players know your GM style, it then keeps them on their toes. BTW, I don't play D&D5e I play C&C. So if 5e requires challenge rating ... :/

[@loganhurley5590]

Matt, I coach a college forensics team. The best competitors have everything memorized, but also can adapt. I got so freaking giddy when you called it forensics and then called it speech and debate. My team made that transition in branding a while ago. Haha

[@RasmusNJorgensen]

In 5th ed. I'm at a point (7 lvl 9 characters in the group), where I know their rough damage output per round (easily 150 when fully rested). I use that as rule of thumb for how many hit points the total opposition has (minimum 450). That way, I know (again roughly), how many rounds the combat will last. How dangerous it is depends on the environement, how nasty and surprising special abilities the monsters have, and how much damage I expect the monsters to dish out (high or low to hit modifier, AoE abilities or not etc.). It all adds up to a non-scientific DM-intuition on how dangerous the encounter is.

[@Skyscraper125]

TL;DR: *My advice to DM's of 5e* Don't react to a bad system. If you find your players are not challenged, make the SYSTEM more challenging. . not the things they are facing. It makes it have greater continuity when everyone has to make system shock saves (goodies and baddies alike), and the villain can't just come back with a resurrection without a roll or some penalty the next time they fight 'em (among other things you can add). Obviously just make sure everyone is on board. My mindset of CR is very dependent on the rules you're running. If you are doing everything by the book, the amount of HP you can restore throughout a 24 hour period is insane. The problem, I think, with CR is 5th edition compared to other editions is that they have CLEARLY made the game easier to try and encourage new people to play D&D. Examples: Spells no longer have save or die style effects: Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc. PCs no longer die on -10 HP, so being at low HP doesn't really matter. Bonus action heals make dropping to 0 not that big of a deal, unless the monsters are attacking dead bodies (Which only makes sense for a select few of the monsters in the MM) Resurrection can be achieved at lvl 5 instead of lvl 9, even if it is a battle rez and costs a *"huge"* cost of 300gp. Resurrection doesn't have any other penalties besides gold cost in the base rule set. The list goes on and on. The fact of the matter is, if you don't change some of 5e's "system simplicity" issues. . it doesn't matter how you do CR. The 5e system forces you to make artificially difficult fights (which by their nature are not fun) in order to "challenge" your players. That or it expects you to make these tactically super complex encounters which are a ball ache to come up with and maintain. Just go into the back of the DM's guide under DM's workshop in 5e and read that chapter thoroughly. There are plenty of things to make the system more difficult for players to survive in. From gritty realism, lingering injuries, system shock, and perhaps some of your own creations. I'm using them, my players love it, and I highly recommend doing that instead of throwing the adult red dragon at your 8th lvl party because "they need a challenge."

[@Sufficient_Reason]

I used CR in 5e for a year and a half. I never felt comfortable with it, and I never felt it was accurate. Some 'deadly' encounters were over in a few rounds with little damage to the party, and other, simpler encounters were grueling and dangerous. But, in using it, in questioning and investigating it and my encounters, I became much more familiar with the bones of 5e. Now I'm confident that CR is garbage, and I'm confident in my ability to read the powers and stats of a creature and make my own decision about what and how many enemies belong in an encounter. I needed that time with CR to teach me the questions I need to ask myself about what makes a good encounter. There's still plenty more for me to learn, though.

[@hotsauce2759]

Could you do a draw my life soon. I really want to know more about how you came to the position you are.

[@Lurklen]

Hey Matt, how do you calculate XP? I pretty much always just look at what I think should be in the places they're headed or whatever and think about what might live there and make note of it's CR. But if it happens to be way too high for them I don't change or lower it , I make sure they know it through hints or signs or literally someone saying "You guys are going to die if you go in there." If you don't use the encounter calculations (I don't either) how do you decide how much xp they get for a real big challenge. I don't mind the rules for xp multiplying, but taking the time to do math like that isn't really what I like to do. So I was wondering if you have a method you like to use. Do you have a hard and fast rule, maybe just eyeball it, or do you just give them xp when they reach a certain point in the campaign?

[@blaizetouchatt6089]

I really enjoy your videos, thank you for making them. I would also enjoy seeing an animated video of your campain.

[@Soenel7]

I like a balance of the two methods I use CR to "dip my toes in" and see if an encounter is right for the average group, which I do use a formula/calculator, but it is not until I get to the table and see the luck/strength of the players that night to actually set things into stone. Players can bad night so I go easier, but if the bad guys are getting slaughtered then I'll go as you say "Jim Murphy" on them. (I'm an old 4x gamer Love me civ and Xcom) >:)

[@emilyjacobus2121]

Great video! I've been DMing for a month now, and this series has helped me a ton. More than anything, it's taught me to focus on making each session fun, challenging and dramatic, rather than following every rule, roll, and procedure to a t. I think having bullet point rather than scripted encounters is a perfect example of player-focused thinking.

[@zagobelim]

I think there's another aspect to consider here. Encounters built on an XP budget are a guarantee that the DM won't screw the players over. So I believe this decision of adhering to this sort of rules or not shouldn't be taken by the DM alone, it should be a choice made by the group as a whole after some discussion. If you're a fair, responsible, knowledgeable DM, it could be great to ditch XP budget and CR and all of that. But I'm afraid that's not the case for most groups. Many DMs play against their players at some level - admittedly or not, consciously or not. Others don't, but they also don't know the game as well as they think, and may put the characters at risk in an unfair, uncalled for way. Those guidelines for making encounters help ensure the DM will not play unfairly against their players, willingly or not. So yeah, they can be ignored, for sure, but if that's the case the players should know that and have a voice in that decision.

[@NeflewitzInc]

I bought your books, currently about halfway through Priest. It's very good so far! I love the little twists that separate the world from others.

[@ldsrockstar]

I love the idea of planning possibilities instead of results. That's how I DM and I feel more confidence having someone else say it! Thanks Matt!

[@noahdilworth8682]

"The lessons you learn next Thursday night are gonna pay off in 2027", Matt assuming humanity will live that long

[@halarkin]

Thank you, Matt. I've kind of been doing my cr calculations the way you describe and feeling like a lesser dm for it. I have a request: I'm a very squishy/storyteller type DM. Can you do a martial tactics video? I hear about them; I know they're something like the placement of troops/characters based on abilities, I just really don't seem to grok them. Tactics for babies, maybe? Thanks again, your videos have improved my game quite a bit. Keep on keeping on!

[@sinjmckenzie6170]

I tend to use a CR budget for the first session of every campaign - I'll have an encounter of each difficulty as stated in the DMG, normally going from trivial to deadly. I find it's a very useful way to gauge how capable my players are. After that, the only thing that CR determines for me is the amount of XP I award them, and to give me an idea of what kind of monsters to throw at them. Currently, I have a party with two highly experienced players who know how to work together in a thematic and character-driven way, and they crush any encounter I throw at them. I regularly set encounters with CRs way above what would be considered "deadly," and often they breeze through as a result of them knowing full well what their characters can and would do, as well as a knack for interacting with my environments to skew fights in their favour. I really can't praise them enough, but the point I want to make is that I wholeheartedly agree that you should not feel that you need to stick to 'rules' on CR and encounter building. It's all situational. Besides, they're more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

[@emurray4097]

Matt, been an on-and-off DM since the early eighties and I agree with many of the things you point and counterpoint. One of my long-time friends and a player in my current 5E campaign has life advice that applies to almost anything, including the debate going on here..."Everything in moderation--including moderation." He wasn't the first to say it, but dang, have I found it to be true. Keep the great content going. And thanks.

[@RottenRogerDM]

Quote from my high school time in 1E and I think D1 Descent into the Earth. "BEEP BEEP Roger play by the rules and run the module as written!". The group was made because I moved the location of the monster. Cr is good for a beginner.

[@ballisticcreeper2767]

I just became a new dm and all your vids helped

[@613aristocrat]

I've been using CR as a guideline more than anything else. To me, the abilities of the monster contributes to the difficulty more than anything else. Then again, I've been running a game for one to two people, so I may not be the best person to comment.

[@Sporadicus1976]

One thing I've learned when using the challenge rating system is that you have one important variable that you can use to tweak the challenge rating on the fly: HIT POINTS. If it looks like the enemy is doing too well against your players and you want them to survive, then nudge his hit points closer toward the minimum. Too easy: then raise it closer to the maximum.

[@minion_kaelith]

Also I'm happy this video came out today as I actually just caught up on all of the "Running the Game" videos yesterday after only recently finding them.

[@Schaly]

XP Threshold is your best friend in encounter building in 5e. The 5e DMG goes over this on page 81-82 and while YES it seems like a weird budget system of "what can I buy with this much XP?", it definitely helps when thinking about action economy. Especially for newer DMs and especially for low level games. CR really messes with early level balance. CR however is a GREAT guideline for building monsters or referencing for adjusting the CR of a monster up or down. If you want to build encounters on the fly, go for it. Then after you have your idea, find monsters that fit into your XP threshold that go with your creative idea, OR build some. Personally I never used CR, but I did use a lot of XP and XP threshold-based math, even back in 2e & 3.0e It wasn't as refined as the current 5e system, but it worked. CR is just overly convoluted for my liking.

[@snappleandcats2209]

Can you do a video about battle/war tactics in d&d?

[@mcolville]

Yeah!

[@Altorin]

Yeah I don't use CR ever but then again I adhoc 90% of my stuff on the fly anyway.

[@janrupertalfeche8959]

I always go the first option - I have an idea for what to throw at my players, I dive into the Monsters Manual to find 'em! And change 'em accordingly :P

[@swordmeow3041]

Are you going to have your next campaign centered around undead, and that's why the undead video is so big?

[@ericsimoneau4818]

Great vid once again. Also just finished Thief. Now when is fighter coming out. Theif was awesome by the way. Read it in no time at all.

[@HowtoRPG]

There is nothing accurate about the CR system. Encounter building is more a DM art.

[@thenetherone1597]

the only time I use challenge rating is during arena combat. in the field, there is no safety net.

[@jallenecs]

Thank you for this. I spent 30+ years playing AD&D, and have only in the last year converted to 5e. In AD&D, I could put together an encounter easily by feel and experience. Trying to learn the CR system was tough, and my encounters always came out much easier than I intended. I'm gonna try your looser version, which is closer to my AD&D approach. And your idea of having enemies in reserve will help me control the difficulty a little better. Thanks!

[@SinerAthin]

dat thumbnail

[@SamPlaysMinecraft1]

I loosely use CR as a guideline and then tweek the encounter based on how competent the party is and their composition. I feel like this works really well to consistently challenge my party. The action economy is also good for this but I prefer CR is better because it's the difference between a storm giant and a hill giant at 5th level

[@SamPlaysMinecraft1]

I'll take your advice and next encounter do away with the CR system and wing it

[@2000TalesRolePlaying]

Another great video. I gave up on the CR system beyond the broadest of ideas of how deadly a creature is a long time ago. At this point I just run the world where things are where they make sense and then give my players the tools to know what they are getting into and decide if it's worth the risk.

[@violetsapphire952]

At this point, my method of designing encounters for my players simply consists of heaping on bad guys until I reckon there's DEFINITELY NO WAY THEY ARE GOING TO SURVIVE THIS ONE...They always seem to survive regardless...

[@callindrill]

My technique: using a tool (like KFC), find monsters that are appropriate, have between 2-3 fewer monsters than players (I have 6 in my game), and then scale until it's JUST BARELY "deadly"... it never is. The action economy outweighs the "deadly" side of the encounter, but it ALWAYS feels tense as hell for my PCs. :)

[@jacksteppenwolf6975]

I am 4 years late to the party, but being a super novice DM who wanted to try to move through CR I found it is badly implemented. How can an Orc (CR 1/2) even compare to a Thug (CR 1/2). Or how the hell are 4 lvl1 characters supposed to properly face a Giant Toad (CR 1) and consider it a MEDIUM encounter, when it deals 2d10+2 damage per hit, and *restrains*.

[@jonsnow3855]

Personally, I think encounter creation was easier in 4th edition. In Pathfinder and 5e, while I consider them better games, CR can be confusing, and it required more math. However, 4e made things easy. For example, if I had 4 Level 1 players, I could just throw them 4 level 1 Standard monsters, 8 level 1 minions, or 1 level 1 Solo Monster. Standard=1 player(roughly), Minion=1/4 player, and Solo is about 4 players. It allowed me to mix and match easily. DM stuff was not the biggest problem in 4e. The biggest problem was PC Stuff. Making every class a spellcaster was the biggest problem. Even at level 4, combats were very slow. The final note about 4e is that fighting Demon Lords, Archdevils, and even Gods was possible. It made my players change the fate of the world. In Pathfinder and to a lesser extent 5e, fighting a Demon Lord is nigh impossible. I think if my players are at 20th level, they should be able to challenge Demon Lords. 20th Level is the cap in 5e so far.

[@Semiotichazey]

I agree with so much of what you say that I'm surprised you're not more OSR. I know that community has the stink of deep grognard about it, but the play style and philosophy of play is very close to yours, I think. Heck, OSR is cautiously positive about 5e, and we'll play it without grumbling. It's just that we think we have even better choices. And what about DCC? That seems right up your alley. I'm a massive DCC fanboy (GMed for them last Gen Con, doing it again this year), but I could see you enjoying that system a lot, too. Not trying to come off as negative about you playing 5e. It's just that I can see you enjoying OSR games even more. Not a CR in sight :-)

[@rftm]

Been going through your back catalogue of vids because I love the way your brain works and you always have the best gaming advice. Can you DM without watching Matthew Colville's videos? Sure.....but I don't recommend it!

[@MrMegatony73]

CR works well enough up until level 5, provided you're only playing with 4 or 5 PCs (although sometimes the right 5 PC's makes CR irrelevant even sooner). After Level 5 you can almost ignore CR (within reason). You'd be surprised what monsters your PC's can defeat if you focus more on the individual monster's stat block vs your PC's rather than CR. Or, if you're like me...you wont be surprised.

[@ZephyrosGamer]

Great video. Great message. But not so great advice. I have a moto of "only change the rules after you learn it". So, particularly for me, was hard to listen your advice for new DMs skipping the learning process of CR. The rule of CR and encounter building works? Not so much... But as a new DM is extreme important to understand the WHY it doesn't work. Yourself have years of experiencie in DMing, this is not the case for everyone, and when these newbies skip a rule (or guideline) like the CR, without understand it first, is where things become dangerous on the point of others players, who maybe are newbie too, don't having fun or having the wrong feedback of how things are "suppose" to be. For people who are learning the CR calculations, use a tool like the site Kobold Fight Club (kobold.club), will improve a lot the process. But like you said. There isn't a really "correct" answer. And people must find out what is the correct for their tables (maybe with a lot of failures). But my advice is: learn the RAW first, then change it.

[@QmonsterGames]

CR is pretty useful for new DMs, but I agree that it's something you can put down and pick up as you get more comfortable. I was a rather nervous person and downright anxious about DMing, so it was nice have something to hold on to as "it's in the rules!" As I got more confident (and eventually medicated) I learned to read the encounter and my players on the fly. Honestly, fudging monster HP is a great way adjust an encounter without ruining immersion. "Why did those shades die so fast?" "Oh, they weren't TRUE shades, merely distant echoes of a greater darkness. Bum bum bum!" *foreshadowing!*

[@itz_drakmin]

I remember in my first session as a dm I threw an ogre against my first level party. Only two of them were in the room with it and the other three were off somewhere else because they thought it was would be best to split up. I had the ogre set up so that he was asleep, but behind him were two treasure chests that had some stuff in it (this was a secret room that the rogue in the group just happened to stumble across) and so the rogue's first instinct was to try and deal with ogre quietly and to try and kill it before it wakes up. Unluckily the cleric walked into the room wearing his heavy armour and woke the beast up, but the rogue had successfully hidden behind some boxes. After the first combat round I had thought that pitting this party against an ogre was a bad idea, as with one swing he knocked the cleric down to 2 hp from his 12 that he had. And then they did something interesting. The rogue had decided to poison one of his arrows and shot it at the ogre, he hit him and the poison came into effect. So it made hitting the cleric much harder giving him enough time to heal. And after a couple rounds the cleric and the rogue managed to kill it, the rest of the party came by and saw what happened. None of these people have ever played dnd before this time, and at that moment I hooked them into it for a long time. (sadly we stopped playing around our 25th session because of some troubles with the paladin :/)

[@itz_drakmin]

also one time I put them against a death knight at 4th level.... earlier in the adventure they had found this magic crystal looking thing and decided to fuck with it, so I decided to tie the death knight to the crystal and so when they encountered him he was a lot slower, so he only had one attack, and he had no spells. Suffice it to say they killed him and his minions pretty quickly.