Measuring Tool Lengths in MACH3 Without a Presetter

Since I'm switching over to a new taper spindle, I need a new way to manage tool lengths. Today we're going to talk about measuring tools in the spindle with MACH3 and how to incorporate a Haimer when touching off tools manually.
Tools shown in this video:
*This site contains affiliate links for which I may be compensated
Vermont Gage 0.750" Gage Pin (Amazon*): amzn.to/32Sdrsk
Shars Ultra Precision 1-2-3 Blocks (pair) (eBay*): ebay.to/2RxwqWc
Haimer Zero Master Mini 3D Sensor (Amazon*): amzn.to/2PVA7mn
Haimer Short Probe 0.2" Veraion (Amazon*): amzn.to/32Dl9Ir
Shars 440V 4" Mill Vise (Amazon*): amzn.to/3hZooyD
Shars BT30 ER20 Collet Chuck (eBay*): ebay.to/3lPjQgp
Shars 8" Dial Height Gauge (eBay*): ebay.to/2APqM7E
Shars BT30 ER20 Collet Chuck (eBay*): ebay.to/3lPjQgp
ER20 TTS Clone Toolholders (eBay*): ebay.to/2srqwaa
Grizzly G0704 Mill (Amazon*): amzn.to/32rutgP

[@timderks5960]

1:16 An excellent example of what a good person does. Needed it in the past, wasn't there, so he made it for others to use in the future (and probably for personal use, we all do that don't we).

[@cwgreen1938]

James, you are a master at machine work. You make it look so easy. Nice work.

[@thecalipercnc2800]

The only thing that i know for sure that you are doing great work I love how you clarify the subjects that you are going to explain and big thumb up for all what you explain in your channel Thank you very much

[@LarrysMachineShop]

The Usual Clough42 Perfect Delivery. Awesome James. Man I cannot wait to see the new spindle working. Thanks for all you do for all of us

[@LarrysMachineShop]

I forgot to ask. When I saw you test it last time you were using the VFD control to set the RPM. Are you going to be able to interface that in the future to Mach3 and set it via Gcode. I get of course that you will have to interface to the control box (VFD control) somehow from Mach3

[@mrrrrr1rob590]

New to the channel. Really enjoying these videos. I do a lot of this type of stuff for work, but I enjoy watching other's approaches. You can always learn something. Your delivery of the information is perfect. Also, I commend you on deepening the knowledge pool and making videos that you would have liked to find.

[@karlkiernan6863]

Just starting out with CNC and found this very helpful. Really would like extra content like this. FYI I only found your channel a day ago and have really enjoyed your content and how well it is put together. Regards Karl from UK.

[@Mike-ff7ib]

As always I love your instructional videos. I used to have the same mach 3 software and I had a sherline mill until my ex gave it all away along with over 20 years of accumulated tools for free. I never used the tool library because I wasn't sure i trusted my self to use it. Sherlines endmill holder was not consistent anyway. It used a set screw to hold the endmills and could be off several thousands with each change of the tool.

[@Ale_Lab]

I love that spindle. Really awesome choice. For the tool offset I would advice to make a quick touch probe, a base 3d printed or made out of plastic with an upper piece in aluminum or whatever conduct electricity. Then your mill is all GND and you only need a 5v signal from the breakout board to the touch probe and you can measure tool offset really fast. I have all the macro script for the probing if you need them. You can also use a 123 block with a piece of tape at the bottom to isolate it from the machine metal surface.

[@3dmakerzone75]

I like the gauge pin trick. I've always used a 1-2-3 block but this method looks easier. Thanks for another great tutorial video.

[@c4fishfood]

You can also use the shank from a broken carbide endmill. I cut off the fluted section with a diamond wheel so that it is a clean rod- works nice for those who are too cheap to buy a proper gauge pin. Just be a aware that a 1/2 or 1/4 or whatever size end mill will not be 0.500 or 0.250

[@BebenX]

I used to do this same thing on my old haas VF4, good tried and true method, very accurate too!, then i got an OTS, if i were you id personally look for a table probe or tool setter, happy machining!

[@toolbox-gua]

I’m new fan of your channel. Now I’m going to check that other video with F360. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@VenomKen]

It was actually important to note that you moved the Haimer back up to zero. That negates the backlash in the Z Axis when measuring the tools. So for those watching make sure you go slightly past zero on the Naimer and then back up to zero. If you come down to zero and then use the pin method moving up you could have the potential for the backslash to be added to your tool offset measurement.

[@jameslaird8399]

Excellent Video, Just used it! I wish I'd found this last year :D

[@brucewilliams6292]

Thank you for the video and the explanation.

[@MegaChekov]

Well done all the best from John in Texas

[@leec2106]

Thank you, I will be trying that later next month.

[@ADBBuild]

I typically use the shank of a 1/2" endmill instead of a gauge pin. Most vendors grind them very precisely, so they work great.

[@joeshmoe5935]

No problems messing up drill tips or worse yet end mill flutes?

[@TrPrecisionMachining]

Gracias por tu tiempo..buen video

[@davidkrikota4404]

Interesting and informative video. Big fat like from Ukraine

[@olympiaworksinfo8094]

Thank you this vid was v helpful

[@TheKnacklersWorkshop]

Hi James, An interesting video even for me a none CNC viewer... Take care Paul,,

[@Build_the_Future]

Can you do more Mach 3 tutorials I found this really helpful.

[@squelchstuff]

Great tutorial James. You really do cover all of the bases, and your videos are building up quite a library of knowledge. I was wondering if it was also possible to set your Haimer as you did, but then use a dial gauge against a reference face on the bed that is zeroed against the Haimer and the reference. It would then merely be a matter of bringing each tool down to zero on the dial gauge and then using the DRO on Mach3 to determine the tool offset. I can see that there is the possibility of accumulating errors or even not always having the same pristine reference, but done right, this might be a quicker method. I'm sure I must have missed something important here though. I'll stand by for having the obvious pointed out :)

[@bobcarlson7729]

Use a dedicated riser block on one end of the table instead of the vise. That way if you setup is ontop of the vise and a tool breaks, you can still reach your tool setter height. or if you dont have a vise for any opp, all your tools are still good

[@pl.workshoplife1721]

Hey, I like this method but z axis pressetter method is nicer cause you have direct readings on the dial. Those inexpensive, Blue or Silver ones have 50mm grounded pins which you use for adjusting the dial. You just touch the pin with haimer and you know compressed value then thouching down rest of tools. I think once you spend few hundreds on haimer, z axis presseter for houndered $ shouldent be a problem :D big fan of your video, keep going!

[@ricardosantosdesouza3012]

Muito bom 👍🏽 excelente explicação esta de parabéns

[@ikbendusan]

i also learned the gage pin method from edge precision :D

[@SeungOhChoi]

I have a better idea!!! With the touch probe and Gcode G31, you can get the tool offset from the mach3 dro easily and precisely. You don't need to move down your tool manually to touch the gauge block. James, always thumbs up!

[@EverettsWorkshop]

I had never heard of the pin gage method until this video. I've always used a cigarette paper on my mill for touching off for my zero on the mill. I know it's manual milling and not CNC, but can see how the pin could be used on the manual mill as well.

[@silent_tofu7921]

Would love to see a video of you installing a Centroid CNC tool setter on your machine.

[@mattcmullen]

James, Master Class as usual. Check out the skin for Mach 3 the guys over at Physics anonymous came up with. Mach 3 Has Never Looked This Good! (CNC Software Part 2) - S03E14

[@BrilliantDesignOnline]

I totally use the Physics Anonymous screen set. And easy to switch back to the default, if necessary.

[@pmsilvei]

I also run PA screen set. If it wasn't there, mach3 would be gone fast 😅

[@darrell1321]

add another input to your breakout board and use an alligator chip with a piece of aluminum angle as a touch probe to set the spindle height to zero than use that setting to set the tool height of each tool. I used the touch option with my router table to set the z height when I changed out the tool in the router at each tool change when cutting. I never used the tool height option on the router table but think that option would be available for tool length setting in the tool table because I had to disable the tool length offset when I moved for Cambam to Fusion360.. I also set the tool change location to move the router to an easy reachable location for a tool change since the router table was a 4' x 10' table. also be glad to help in the macro programming if need...

[@FloweringElbow]

Useful and professional, as always. Thanks! I'm curious, are you still using Mach 3? I have it set up on the 8 x 4 router/occasional mill, which I made. In videos I posted about it, a common comment is along the lines of Mach 3 is the devil and all your problems are due to Mach 3... It seemed ok to me. I have a license to switch to Mach 4, but after all the setup of various ATC spindle brains and macros I'm quite reluctant. Thanks again :)

[@trentlouviere5009]

Check out the APM Cnc tool pre setter, I have a Haas TM 2 mill , and I tried the little cheap setters but so good, but the APM is worth every penny , makes setting tools so easy and accurate, they are on sale on eBay ,you won’t be disappointed

[@mattinkel7342]

Mach3 is capable of so much more than I use it for .. i'd love a ATC that would be a real game changer alas my budget says no!

[@gordonjones1516]

You may know this already, but in MDI mode if you hit the up key you can cycle through the previous commands.

[@dannywilsher4165]

I was wondering if you rapid down to .750 and rolled the gage pin under it what would it do? I would think that would show the runout that you talked about maybe? Or it might not... Just my wondering...

[@psmola101]

Great vid on tool offsets. Very clear and concise, as usual. Do you have any idea on how to adjust for tool diameter? I can't seem to locate any clear information anywhere, including the Mach3 manual. The problem I am trying to solve is how to tell Mach3 that a particular end mill is worn and have it adjust the toolpath to compensate for that wear. Say I setup my gcode for using a .25" diam end mill, but the tool is worn or has been resharpened to say .243". I tried filling in this info in the tool table but Mach3 does not appear to use the diameter info in that table. I would think that many of your viewers would appreciate how do do this, unless it is very simple and I just don't get it. It has been a PITA trying to CNC a bearing pocket accurately when my end mills are not dead on in terms of diameter.

[@greener121]

James, what are you going to do with your tts holders?

[@seanoneill4216]

Don’t use a gauge pin and risk accidentally jogging down and messing it up. Just use a hardened steel dowel pin. They’re cheap, accurate and replaceable. I use a .25” dowel for my touch offs WCS Z set to -.25” so I don’t have to remember to enter the compensation into the tool table. Also by touching off with that method a haimer isn’t even needed for z heights at all. Haimer z is good for if you set WCS zero at the bottom of stock( which makes it easy to see if tools got programmed too deep) so say you have standard tools that stay in your machine and they’re all touched off relative to the table then you can set your WCS Z to something like 3.875”. ( the height of the bottom of a part on 1” parallels in a Kurt 8” vise) this allows you to switch between setups super quick. Sure it’s not accurate to tenths but it’ll get you within .005” (measure to the bottom of the vise from the table with the haimer to be sure )

[@BrilliantDesignOnline]

On the MDI screen, you can just hit enter to bring up the MDI box; then you can use the up/down arrow keys to select previous entered expressions and/or edit them and hit enter to execute, and enter again to de-select the MDI. Also, I hooked up an input wire and associated it with the probe using this BRILLIANT video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqe5Y4mjp92UqMU and Charlie includes the scripts. It works SUPER good and the countdown audio cues are cool too. I will make a video on my setup which works flawlessly and could be adapted to your tool length offset system, but using a completely automatic, electronic version of putting the gauge pin down. I cannot tell you how much time this has saved, especially on my 6040 with only a fixed collet and no toolholders, so each tool requires Z height reset. I will be making a video soon to review the process. I really appreciated the step by step of how to use the Tool Height setting function in Mach3, since I had no idea how it worked.

[@workucet6788]

At 11:50, would it not work if you just leave the tool slightly loose in the collet, use the gage pin to zero the tool (will push it further in the collet), then tighten the collet fully and recheck your offset with the gage pin?

[@toddthomas1075]

Now that all tools lengths are set in relationship to your pick tool any tool can be used to set zero (G54) and all tool will length will follow?

[@marianodiaz461]

I use a spring loaded tool setter with a indicator or a light ,that way you don’t have to roll a pin under the tool

[@dzee9481]

Clough, curious why not use a script that will travel the Z axis to a touch plate of know size and get the tool measurement from Mach 3 that way? Unless that is much less accurate than a gauge. I am curious if the process would be more or less accurate using a touch plate where the tool is touched off a know plate size. Using the probe tocuh method.

[@samrix5793]

Hi, what cameras do you use? Thanks Sam

[@jameslee522]

What spindle did you upgrade to?

[@Nicoya]

Small thought: if you use a positive length from the spindle face for all your tooling and accidentally switch to a tool that you haven’t added a length for, won’t that cause the mill to try to smash the end of the spindle down into the part? Might be more bonehead-proof to start with a reference tool length that makes all the tooling have a negative length instead.

[@madisonrollings1845]

Yeah, that can happen. Good machining techniques will catch it before it does (watching distance to go). It's easier to visualize, I guess it's the best way I can describe it, when you use positive tool lengths. Things you can physically measure don't have negative lengths. You can put an arbitrarily long tool length as a placeholder in your tool table. That way the machine will either alarm out for not enough z travel, or cut air above the part when you forget to set the offset.

[@krischlapek6939]

Any chance you could make a tutorial with tool offset using touch of probe like dt2 or similar?

[@MrZX1206]

When is your TTS tooling going on eBay?

[@manmachinemake3708]

I use a similar method, tho different. I set my tool heights to the raw workpiece since i have and use various fixturing methods. I use a 1-2-3 block and the same "lower past and raise until it clears" method. I have WAY to many different parts that i make and not enough tool holders for all, so I have to change tooling in the holders for most every job. Kinda negates the permanent tool height offset in My Haas.

[@Futschikatores]

With a screencapture you couldnt use your finger to point things out. I like it the way it is :)

[@markhorton9020]

tool holders a mix of bt30 and iso30?

[@Thorhian]

You should try LinuxCNC some time :) Awesome video BTW. This series has been awesome.

[@BrilliantDesignOnline]

Mach3 works Awesome.

[@Thorhian]

@@BrilliantDesignOnline Mach3 is decent. It's pretty old and relies on a non-realtime operating system. LinuxCNC is a more reliable and open-source project that is continuously worked on (but still has stable version releases). Combined with FPGAs, it's an extremely formidable control system for CNC machines.

[@ConcertLD]

Instead of a gauge pin could you have used a indicator to touch off to that is set 3/4" above the anvil? If not why?

[@markdion9932]

Do you plan on selling your tts tool holders

[@VladekR]

👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@gregoryrust2310]

I would think this gets old after a while. I would get a z-axis tool setter which should make the offset direct reading.

[@xenonram]

Rolling a gauge pin under the tool takes about 9 seconds. Plus hell only have to do it a few times a month if he replaces a tool or ads a new one. Hardly something that would "get old" since he's not going to be doing it very much. It's not a production shop where he's setting tool length several times a day.

[@johanneslaxell6641]

Old video, but so am I. We use zero setters all the time, it's easy as making hay 😜. Setting any tool: zero is zero is zero. We use both the ones with indicating light and the ones with gauges depending on preference. I even use the one with light in the lathe... It doesn't matter where to put it, it's for reference and not for measuring...

[@Clough42]

The trick with a tool setter is figuring out the correct length for the Haimer. You would need the Haimer to compress to zero at the same time the zero setter compresses to zero, and that doesn't work. A tool setter with a very weak spring works with a digital probe that breaks the moment the stylus starts to move, but with the zero point in the middle of the spring range, the Haimer makes this more difficult. Edit: Thinking about this more, I think you'd just need to have a solid block the same height as the tool setter for finding the Haimer zero. I need to look into this more.

[@johanneslaxell6641]

@@Clough42 I think we have a slightly different approach. Yes, I use the Haimer to check different hights on a piece (move down to zero, move over to the slot, move down to zero and take the number) and to find x-y origin, but the Haimers hight I have only eyeballed. The z-compensation I make with a weldon with just a rod in it and a setter. That one is my absolute z-zero and the other tools relates to that. I forgot: Happy New Year 2023 🍻🎇!

[@JohannSwart_JWS]

Thanks James. I do have a question however - You set the zero with your Haimer, by taking up backlash from the bottom, and with all your tools. Which makes sense. But, in operation all tools usually approach the work on the Z axis from the top. Which means that what Mach3 thinks is your tool position, and where it actually is, differs by your backlash distance. Unless of course Mach3 has a backlash compensation parameter (I'm sure it does), which you did not mention or demonstrate, and are actually using, and we assume its a reliable constant. My point is - we are working, and reporting to tenths, but kind of ignoring the backlash issue. Can't believe I used the word "tenths". My head works in metric :-)

[@dannywilsher4165]

I as wondering something along this line of thought also. My comment earlier approached the concern from a different angle though....

[@JohannSwart_JWS]

@@Joshua0689 OK, I get it. All lengths are set relative to the Haimer's zero. Whether from above or below. The backlash thing is then cancelled out. Thanks.

[@Clough42]

I take up the backlash in the upward direction with the haimer as a reference for setting the tools in an upward direction with a pin. That way, the backlash is canceled. Then, when I measure the position of the stock for machining, I take that measurement downward, since the tools will be approaching from that direction. However, keep in mind that tool pressure could pull the backlash out of the axis during milling, so really the backlash needs to be addressed.

[@RobB_VK6ES]

We use these all day everyday at work. The pad at the top is spring loaded against a set of contacts at a known height much like electronic probes. As soon as the tool touches it depresses the pad and the LED illuminates. images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41vR1HKT6zL._AC_.jpg. You can place it onto the bed or the top surface of the part. A similar idea but for edge finding www.engineerswarehouse.tools/products/optical-edge-finder-touch-point-sensor. Use both together and you can replace the Haimer for a much more robust and cheaper alternative. Touch off the edge finder on top of the height pad and make it your reference tool. Being relatively long compared to normal tooling gives a consistent +ve tool length offset. It is always a good idea to make your reference tool the longest tool in the sequence, saved countless tools in the past

[@flikflak24]

Wait does that spindle not have any dogs at where the tool holder connects? ( the two small taps hanging down for pretty much all spindls like a din or sk typer spindle) I thought that the dogs was needed to insure that the tool wouldn't be able to spin around in the spindle bore

[@ebrewste]

The taper combined with the pull stud tension is enough on a machine like this. For bigger machines with more torque, the dogs need to be there.

[@flikflak24]

@@ebrewste ¨was just woundering thats all well what do i know about the small ones xD i have used and is only useing the big ones

[@joell439]

👍😎👍

[@Dancer148]

Educational video as always. Sorry if I'm wrong but with this method isn't there the danger of human error for harware grabbing versus software selecting difference? You can damage your, well done, changed motor setup with automatic fixing badly. I think the only safe cheap method is gcode bases with a simple digital(on/off) spring tool setter. I used the z-endstop tool touching method to a springloaded surface.

[@LoomisRex]

why not use an electric touch probe? mach3 supports it out of the box

[@5Breaker]

Physics Anonymous Mach 3 Skin? ;)

[@JanBinnendijk]

"and with taper tooling there is not really an easy way to measure on the bench"... 3 words: Hold my beer! I worked at a Company where the also did not have a tool presetter, just a height gauge..They just turned a piece of Cold rolled to match the diameter of the taper, so it woud sit on the flange, If it doesnt rest on the flange, Turn a Taper inside a piece of cold rolled.. You could also use a Toolsetter on your machine..I think you can write a Macro to make that happen.. I Use a Toolsetter, and when measuring a tool i just enter an approximate lenght, and hit start . then the Toollength measurement proceeds automatically, even in a program,i can change it, and measure it, then proceed with the program..

[@kristianholt3416]

You set all unoccupied tools to zero, wouldnt it be safer to set them all to for example 100 so it cant reach the workpiece if you forget to measure a new tool in the future

[@dannirr]

Why not use a simple Electronic tool setter? Cheap, easy and much more accurate

[@osgeld]

if your interested in keeping the same pc, one of my hobbies is pimping the ever living crap out of old pc

[@kurtbilinski1723]

If you guys haven't heard, Fusion360 just changed the rules on their free version, deleting many file export formats useful for automated fabrication. May want to look into alternatives.

[@jimhunt5259]

?? say Wha??

[@Bigwingrider1800]

AND NOBODY TOUCHES OFF LIKE THAT. IT'S SAFE BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS. MOST WILL TOUCH OFF ON PAPER (WRONG). THIS WORKS FLAWLESS..

[@markdavis5255]

Instead of using a hammer for the reference tool just zero your reference tool all the way up and then all your tools will be minus offset

[@JustinPoggeOldFieldCycles]

i do not have experience with Mach3 but i use Haas Mills at work, one has a Renishaw probe but the other mills we set all the tools referenced off the table using a z axis tool setter, its very accurate, it has an LED light that lights up when the tool touches the top completing a circuit. i then just have to subtract the setter height. with setting all the tools on the table, all your work coordinates are all positive numbers since the table is your zero height. we use a Haimer to figure out stock z height when necessary.