Med School Dreams Derailed by Half a Mark | REACTION

[@hana.s.ali93]

Thanks for the reaction Kevin, I loved the video!🙂I actually very much agree with everything you said. I think personality does have a large part to play in our experiences within a career, particularly one that's as high-pressure as medicine. I do however, think that belittling/bullying in medical culture is a larger problem than we may think - I just posted a video about this yesterday, talking about a few different studies, one being a systematic review/meta-analysis looking at 13 global studies and 44,566 participants which found a 51% prevalence of bullying in medical residents, and a higher risk of bullying for female residents and minority groups (of which I am both). To me, that's a huge number, and definitely a problem that needs to be looked at so as not to deter people from the field. I think mental resilience is incredibly important, but it does come with time. I knew the longer I stayed the more resilient I would be, but the issue was that whilst working in the NHS, I would look at a lot of doctors around me who were 5-10 years into their journey, and who were still absolutely miserable. It gave me very little hope that things would get better. The NHS is under-resourced, and is getting harder and harder to work in each day, and the cons of trying to fight that uphill battle didn't seem worth it to me. That being said, I never want to encourage anyone to leave! It was the right choice for me, but it may not be the right choice for everyone. I also completely agree (and tell most medical students who want to leave) that pushing through to get the medical degree is incredibly useful, and has helped me a lot in my career. I also talk a lot about how leaving altogether isn't always the only option, and that people have way more options than they think - which unfortunately I had to learn for myself after 7 years of trying different things! Great to hear your thoughts on this though, looking forward to more discussions on these topics! :) P.S. That startup I ended up going to really was quite toxic. 😂 A lot of my friends there also left shortly after I did, and it continues to have the same issues even to this day. Everywhere I worked at after I absolutely loved - the teams and environments were amazing (including my current team). Those first two experiences of my career just so happened to not be great. I promise I'm not an asshole!! 😂😂 But point well made, I totally get where you're coming from.

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Thanks Hana! Kudos again and happy for you =)

[@MaryMishkaShadowLuna]

Hey, I left the UK NHS after 5 months to move to Switzerland. My first job was good but because of a few bad apples became toxic and bullying environment (it was psychiatry...and easy speciality). I moved to another job (emergency medicine) and my team was SUPER supportive even though the hospital in general had that same toxicity. It was amazing. However my mental space wasn't quite there and I took a break. One of the reasons I chose Switzerland. You can afford to do that with less stress.

[@Luna11420]

I completely agree with your points. Before studying medicine I worked in other fields and saw that any job has the potential to be "toxic". It doesn't mean you need to quit the field altogether, maybe find a different place to work. Glad she found her passion though!

[@sunriselotus]

I 100% agree with this girl, I can’t handle the level of toxicity and all the stuff, it completely turns me off and it just a big turn off from this field.

[@laurahill4566]

I have experienced this same toxic culture working in sales and marketing as well. People can be horrible in any field.

[@Pdmc-vu5gj]

What was specifically is toxic?

[@j.wilkerson1905]

I so respect her decision to call it quits, that might just be the most difficult decision she makes. But life is about taking risks...

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Takes courage for sure

[@Jay-pg5hw]

I am a graduate of this medical school. I agree with a lot of what she has said in this.

[@a_bex.1501]

This really hits. Makes me realize how much I've been telling myself to stop feeling and push through. I've pretty much hated every moment of medical school. I go to bed with dread and frustrated and wake up dreading every moment of the day. I guess it just feels like there's no other option but to keep going when you have this much debt...

[@kevinjubbalmd]

There are other options. If one is miserable they should consider the alternatives

[@andrewgonzales1359]

No one is ever wrong for quitting.

[@modernkhajiit]

My story about quitting medicine, from last week. I got PTSD from working COVID-19 and ICU, AND BULLYING. It lasted for 3 years, sometimes better, sometimes worse. I loved my job, I loved giving anesthesia and I have participated in the most specialist happenings in surgery, including harvesting and transplantation of lungs. 🎉 Finally PTSD returned to me with such a force I would have nausea anytime I was going to work. Flashbacks anytime I examined the patient, smelled urine, watched the wounds. And yet another nurse ignoring me and discussing with a specialist orders written by me - next to me. I'm done. I don't care anymore. I've seen enough. I want to wear dresses and manicure to work. That's my motivation to quit medicine and I'm not even exaggerating, and I'm not ashamed at all. 😅

[@StudentDrGigi]

Im currently a medical student at the University of Liverpool! Obviously, I started way after her, but I must say that I do not feel bullied. The school of medicine obviously has its cons but I genuinely enjoy going to class every day and the doctors I’ve encountered so far are very kind and approachable!

[@T-Bone99]

I'm in medical school now and so far have talked to some people and where I am at least there is no way there is gonna be any extreme toxicity going on at the hospital because my country takes that shit super serious to where, even if you're "just" the med student, a report comes in anonymously, that surgeon or whoever talked shit is gonna get an earful. Usually these guys are also professors anyways so they're professionals and used to teaching cause it's a teaching hospital. But from where I stand, having been in the military where that kinda thing (being belittled etc.) is a gold standard in basic training to toughen you up, my stance is just: meh. What's it to me if some surgeon calls me an idiot for not knowing something? So what? I'll learn in the process, just take it. That kinda stuff leaves me a little cold, personally speaking. I completely understand that some people can't deal with that though. Obviously I also recognize that it should just not be that way. I have 0 illusions about this stuff either; I know for a fact life after med school and residency is completely different.

[@aspengrey1898]

This video speaks to me. I thought of quitting nursing school but my mom told me to finish and get my degree and run

[@yazan5590]

Hey Kevin. I want to comment on the last part as it caught the most attention to me. I really do agree with you that everyone should be more resilient and that you should be mentally tough and not given to any comments. Maybe I'm also like you as I am interested in a surgical specialty that has lots of toxic characteristics but I think of it as more of how can I be better than why is he pimping or asking me. I would love a longer video on this topic even if it's for the premium members of the channel as I really appreciate your thinking and opinions ❤

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Thanks for comment. Well incorporate something on this in a future video

[@grant4360]

That difference in cost of medical school makes it so much easier to change your mind and call it quits in the UK than in the US. Once you've taken that loan out in the US... you are screwed and kinda have to finish because now you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt on your head that you can't otherwise pay back, and that is scary and really a shit situation

[@hkim9151]

Low med school tuitions are in state, and in addition to this doctors in England gets lower than 1/2 the salary to that of US.

[@Drdoris647]

I was also bullied by the senior doctors when I was back home working as a doctor, it was bad that sometimes I come to work and I get sent back home and they would make me do a straight seven days call, its not easy but I still love being a doctor, am happy

[@DiLLZGFX]

So in the UK, if you go from school to Med school, you still need to obtain work experience, shadow a doctor, have extracurricular activities and entrance exams which then allow you to get a chance at interviews. If you've done well in the interview stage then you might get an offer. Also, those 3As, are dependent on how well the other students have done across the country. Also, the MD is heavily based on the old Scottish MD degrees which no longer apply to the UK, as the English medical degree took over - MBBS.

[@davidc4408]

You need very little work experience. Plus with doctor shortage they are doing foundation degrees which are more relaxed. US system is better. Doing a degree and then starting med school at earliest 22, so you have had broader education and life experience. UK tries to rush people. You can still leave school at 16 - 18 in US. Drink at 18 - 21 in US. Even join military at 16. Virtually no other country allows that

[@DiLLZGFX]

@@davidc4408 totally disagree, despite the shortages the MBBS degree is still considered to be a tier 1 global medical degree alongside the MD. Id argue that you're better off saving time and money with the UK system than the US System. The US System is better for specialising as it's shorter time period to become a consultant, whereas in the UK it's on average a further 10 years. Both have their pros and cons, not a definite case of which one is better or worse.

[@Potnoodle123]

@@davidc4408 Foundation degrees are no where near a norm..... lol im failing to understand your point

[@yellownoiseclub]

1:22 this conditional offer is only after youve done your personal statement, letters of reccomendation from teachers, work experience and interview, only if they are happy with all that do they give you a conditional offer that you have to meet also the 1/2 mark seems weird never heard of them giving half marks. you either got the mark or you didnt not halfway. then can call the examboard and ask for remarking although its possible for your mark to go down

[@justme-ld9xz]

I luckily got in a medschool program that’s 4 years and 2.190 euro’s a year. If I would have gotten in at a regular program of 6 years I would have to pay 20.000 a year. The catch was that program I got in only allows 30 people in yearly. But very grateful that I will have zero to almost no studentloans after this.

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Solid!

[@lupitasims5209]

Where is this?

[@justme-ld9xz]

@@lupitasims5209 The netherlands

[@redditstoriez-z2n]

19:14 the attending should never throw a loaded scalpel at a resident 🗿🗿🗿

[@dwlbrx3256]

I mean those patients are often times bullies themselves to our nurses and doctors. So if she couldn’t handle that pressure while in school, I can’t imagine how she’d be able to handle it in the field, in the real world.

[@modernkhajiit]

No, that's not an explanation. Bullying by nurses and senior doctors (mostly females) is extreme. You can handle pressure from bullying patients only if you have supportive team behind your back.

[@JT-tx2ns]

It’s always doctors in the UK and not the states but for a very good reason. 😢

[@Pdmc-vu5gj]

I notice that too....I'm surprised the culture is so toxic in the UK.

[@maxim0953]

9000 pounds / year is cheap compared to the US? Damn, I'm from Belgium and going to start my bachelor in Medecine, and it'll cost me about 131 euros / year (without costs like buying books and such included ofc). For most people it's 1131 euros/ year but that is still so much cheaper than both the UK and the US. I'm happy that our education is so well funded by the goverment.

[@DennisBolanos]

I’m a third-year undergraduate chemistry major who plans to pursue a PhD in pharmacology (along with an MBA in marketing). Would you say that graduate school is as rivalrous as medical school?

[@pathurd9595]

Fellow undergrad here so I’m definitely not qualified but my research mentor says graduate school and Medical school are hard in different ways. Medical school is hard because there’s a lot of information and you have to impress/ deal with a lot of people. Grad school is hard because you have to master a specific subject and become a contributor to the scientific community. Kind of comparing apples to oranges!

[@DennisBolanos]

@@pathurd9595 Thanks for the input!

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Well said

[@sunriselotus]

And I don’t agree with your last point Kevin, I think the toxicity that I experienced is legitimate and A lot of people have reported the toxicity and bad culture of medicine all around the world. So no I don’t think I’m an asshole? I think I’m actually a very nice person and I have witnessed assholes since the elementary school. And it’s very important to recognize it when they come otherwise it being an asshole will just be normalized and then you will just have to tell people to grow “thick skin.”

[@modernkhajiit]

I agree with you and I disagree both with need of "thick skin" and medical bullying being "complex" or normal. It's extreme. I have friends from many fields and every single of them was astonished by ny stories. I have been doing anesthesia residency, I have been bullied since first day of residency, mostly by nurses, but also specialists, professors, older residents and some cleaning staff. No joke. It only stopped twice, when the leaders intervened protecting me or my friends, which I am very thankful for to this day (2 of my bosses in hospital). I was also well protected in every general practice I worked in, but protection was needed only from aggressive patients, GPs and GP nurses were cute, helpful and nice. So it wasn't me. As for comparision of bullying in anesthesia and neurosurgery - I would argue. I have never seen neurosurgery residents bullied in my last hospital - us, young anestheiologists on the other hand... oh my God. Never. Ever. Again. I'm done. I'm too old for this sh🎉t.

[@MatchaCocoaDog]

Though "high school" in other countries is the equivalent of college in the US, as far as general education is concerned.

[@More2Winners]

Will you be discussing your take on the USMLE cheating scandal?

[@kevinjubbalmd]

Yes

[@kevinjubbalmd]

What other videos should I check out and possibly react to?

[@irenehalam7752]

Please talk about females surgeons pursuing transplant surgery. Pros and cons. Work culture. From India❤.

[@irenehalam7752]

Females transplant surgeons.

[@WillieFordham]

Talk about how Psychologist can prescribe meds now

[@thomism1016]

My daughter almost suffered the same fate. We requested a remark which was successful.

[@RahnamDkhar]

Hey doc, I love your videos.

[@vanderson5226]

My friend failed her Nursing class for 1/2 a mark.

[@justme-ld9xz]

I chuckled when you said you showed up to your therapy sesh with spreadsheats, tell us you’re an INTJ without telling us you’re an INTJ 😂 As an INFJ I really appreciate u guys.

[@kevinjubbalmd]

😂 yeah ENTJ but close enough

[@KenmanG1982]

I’m glad you brought up the concept of bullying in medicine as being complex. There are abrasive attendings in every field, but probably more so in surgical subspecialties. In my experience, most of the people who go into these fields are able to handle this, and do not consider it abuse. In addition, in order to do medicine, you need to be tough.

[@Pdmc-vu5gj]

Ehhhh...you need to be tough in any field. I'm amazed the excuses people will make to justify toxic behavior, bullying, or a personality disorder. The "you need to be tougher" usually means don't stand up for yourself.

[@KenmanG1982]

@@Pdmc-vu5gj what is meant by being “tough” is standing up for yourself, being assertive and not being a snowflake.

[@Eudamonic]

Most undergrad medical degrees in the uk are 5 years

[@sunriselotus]

Hi Kevin, in Obgyn rotation was the only girl and there were all the guys. Needless to say it was horrible and I was bullied by all the women obgyn because I wasn’t able to communicate with all my other classmates and understand what was going on.

[@Lionforaday]

Sorry, you were the only girl and "there were all the guys?" If you were the only girl, how were you "bullied by all the women obgyn" and why weren't you "able to communicate with all your other classmates & understand what was going on?" I literally can't even tell if you're a guy or girl writing this - either way, I'm not sure why you couldn't communicate or understand "what was going on." You sound young - that's about all I can tell.

[@Cattaaliyah]

Totally agree with what he’s saying

[@MatchaCocoaDog]

I'm applying for residency in 2 years. What advice do you have for me?

[@Rainbowofthefallen]

Just commenting for the algorithm 🧡

[@kevinjubbalmd]

My guy/gal

[@aspengrey1898]

I guess medicine isn't that different from nursing in terms of bullying and belittling new comers in hospitals

[@hkim9151]

£3000 in Manchester , but liverpoool is £9000. It is just 30 mins drive away. In the US, the entire England is just one state. 😂😂😂

[@lemon7748]

just to clarify this is because UK universities used to have a 'capped' annual tuition of £3k but the government then changed this to cap £9k in 2012. This applied to all universities so there's no difference between Manchester vs Liverpool (both would be £9k in 2012!)

[@Lionforaday]

Respectfully, you've got a pretty US-centric view, at least of medicine. It's not like, "Here's how it's done in the US; here's how it's done in 'the rest of the world.'" It's obviously different in different countries. In Canada, you can apply to some med schools in 2nd year university (in Canada, only colleges are called “college”). And if you go to one of the two condensed programs (U. of Calgary & McMaster)? They’re not 4 years, or even 3. They’re 2 years & 8 months! So you could have your MD less than 5 years after high school. I’m wondering if you worked in any other field before med school? For most doctors? It's all they know.. In contrast, by the time I went to med school, I’d already worked a decade in advertising. Based on this, I agree with her - there is indeed a “type” of person who gravitates twds medicine (I’m sure I was one of them). So sure, there’s “all kinds of people" - but not in medicine. There’s a few kinds. There's just far less-variability. Just as bratty kids aren’t “born bad” but raised by permissive parents that don’t set boundaries, I’ve seen too many doctors (male & female) say & do truly outlandish things for which they’d have been promptly canned in most “regular jobs.” But bc they’re doctors? It’s just accepted. Others shrug, and continue to reward them w. the unconditional respect doctors have come to expect - a respect that in some cases, is not only unearned, but undeserved.

[@johanne7]

There was definitely some splitting and black-and-white thinking there 🤔 well noted.

[@nafissajid1]

I so agree with your last statement. If you think the rest of the world is toxic that means you are toxic yourself So true , totally agreed

[@anniea.5471]

Or maybe you just can’t respond properly to bullying:) because if you are weak, then the bully will find you anywhere. And then it doesn’t mean you are toxic, but that you are weak

[@vivek27789]

​@@anniea.5471Harsh but true

[@Pdmc-vu5gj]

@@anniea.5471 That's exactly it. As someone who was bullied at one time I learned from my mistakes. As soon as someone crosses a line, you need to nip it in the bud. Fight or flight.

[@lukasx543]

Hello Dr, Im Lucas, Im currently doing my first year of residency in general medicine in Germany but Im planning to start cardiology next year. Please, can you recommend me the best book to master ECG?

[@MaiberPrieto]

If you really want to know how toxic medicine can be... Than just come to Mexico and see that with your own eyes, because there is no comparison.

[@thomism1016]

The US is an outlier 🤔

[@Pdmc-vu5gj]

In short, she could not deal with difficult people. But that's life. She is better off working solo by herself. She sounds easily shaken.