Melee Meta Discussion in 9.0 | Stream Highlight

[@m4tzeeh]

"Best single target dps of any melee hunter spec in the game"

[@sorcerer3419]

What about demon hunter tho

[@klocka88]

Hes not wrong though xD

[@kelinoxx3469]

The guy spitting FACTS

[@KiLLERJA0]

survival has value because it can switch to marksman at any point

[@Hunchojk]

Old survival was actually the only fun hunter spec I’ve ever played, then they just gave some of their abilities to marksman and made it a melee spec for no reason.

[@darkfire8008]

@@Hunchojk Some people were asking for a melee hunter so they made survival lol

[@MorionAikanaro]

@@darkfire8008 by some you mean less than 5% of the hunter player base. also.. rexxar was clearly BM... therefore BM should have been melee... if you were going to make survival a melee, they should have made it the only MAIL wearing tank. its literally called survival..

[@cr1spbeatzplz]

I'd be worried if i mained hunter. being dependant on a covenant ability to secure my spot would feel pretty bad!

[@p.e.4442]

I have a blast playing hunter. Sorry you don't like it as much!

[@Pokasquantas]

It's insane the great content you're pumping out ! It really is the best content for raiding to understand things through the bests perspective. Keep it up!

[@xinj6142]

"There are less ranged specs than in classic and they added 10 more melee specs." Fucking true man. OMG

[@3lit3gn0m3]

Dev tunnel-vision is the most powerful spec in the game.

[@bygtoof]

And then they proceed to make the content not friendly for melee dps :)

[@Wellshem]

Still waiting for the tinker

[@ikuep]

I like this no-intro, going straight into it

[@jereXIX]

Yep. No intro. No bullshit catch phrase nonsense. Just the info.

[@Stu5727]

it's cause it's cut from his twitch stream. i agree though

[@Epicmission48]

Ranged SV hunter was my favorite raiding spec (SoO was its peak imo) I even played it a little in HFC, the last raid it was ranged. Good memories

[@GuiMoreno291]

I think SV hunters peaked at Cata, they were the strongest spec in the game for quite a long time during Cata.

[@lrgotmilk]

The Survival niche is upfront burst AoE damage. With Korayn, Wildfire Cluster, and 2 button presses you can easily erase packs of mobs. Single target is a big meme though it's really shit because the single target ability is in a talent row.

[@lrgotmilk]

@Tim A The niche of it being a hybrid melee/ranged is cool I guess, but you wouldn't bring a DPS because it can be ranged sometimes. Just think of survival as a spec that isn't punished that hard for heavy movement. The only thing the spec is really lacking is mongoose bite baseline and some more interesting single target talents imo. It's definitely better than you'd expect.

[@NachosMitDip]

Question remains: is it better than other aoe burst? Better than fire mage, windwalker or whatever other specs there are? In this video specifically Max said that Hunter (Marksman) has the strongest 4-5 target burst aoe in the game. I imagine Survival is capped like most melee specs, so is it really stronger? The spec is a meme and will remain one until it is reworked.

[@Electrifi3d]

@Tim A I disagree. Imo enha has the same problems arms has at any expansion start : lack of haste on gear. Enha has already decent single target damage and similar to arms it will scale well throughout the expansion. Its biggest problems are mainly just a clear lack of survival, utility and mobility when you compare it to warrior, dk and monk.

[@HumbIeStudent]

Im seeing survival more desired in mythics, their burst aoe definitely can beat out MM! Even if they are not necessarily wanted for mythic raids it makes a fun alt. Unfortunately they don't have anything like windfury to justify bringing them to a raid over a ranged. I also have to say its one of my favorite classes to play, its a lot like my main (feral, yes i'm a geezer), I raided alt runs on survival and it was fun but I felt there was no reason to gear it up, just played DK.

[@B1aurgh]

@@NachosMitDip With the right talents, huge uncapped upfront burst AoE even outside of Wild Spirits, with only a few seconds recharge, as well as leggos that support it. Although with the requirement that the adds are stacked up correctly, since the damage is focused on a (in my opinion too narrow) cone, rather than the more common AoE patterns.

[@James-kv3ll]

Can’t wait for the tank video. Been trying to convince my raid lead that Vengeance DH is good for raids. He’s still stuck with the same Legion and BfA mindset that it’s only good for M+.

[@James-kv3ll]

@Lil Nugget Ikr But that community perception from 4 years is some strong shit lol

[@Dac85]

@@James-kv3ll Sounds like less community perception and more that your raid leader is a dingus.

[@trixzify]

@Lil Nugget what? Dh tank gets more love than any other tank every expansion

[@EdNeaton]

VDH was shit in M+ in BfA... At the very least in 8.3, because all its tankiness was innate and it barely benefitted from corruption, and had such low dps your corruption needed to go into doing more dps in any case so you could keep threat. It was good with no gear but it fell apart above +20s (to be fair, so did most classes that weren't vDH, but it definitely wasn't strong).

[@James-kv3ll]

@@EdNeaton Was still much stronger in m+ than it was in Raids. Plus before PTO Warrior got super nutty in M+ in BfA Vengence was competing with Blood for the next M+ tank earlier in BfA. But yeah, my point was that the community wildly only accepted it as a dungeon tank, and saw it as useless in raids. That perception has stuck around for some.

[@Forndrome]

WW *was* squishy in the last 3-4 years when you had to use your Touch of Karma on CD offensively to do competitive damage to justify being given a coveted melee spot, and therefore on certain fights wouldn't have it up as a normal defensive, leaving you as a leather class with next to no self-healing or passive damage reduction, and just one talented defensive (and it was usually Diffuse Magic which only worked on magic).

[@PoeyJerkins]

Yea. It was also technically too "squishy" to make it to the super high end m+ keys late in bfa ... but so was every melee that wasnt a rogue or a dh. I remember saying they were too squishy to push +28, +29, etc but thats basically just bc they didnt have an immunity. I dont think WWs were ever arguing that their defensives were just bad in general haha.

[@michaelkohl8053]

Being a rogue and trying to raid with pugs is roooough right now.

[@maxlgaudi8386]

Try being a dh mate

[@greenlotus4]

I feel you.

[@mitchzurbrigg2403]

Keys 2

[@princevegeta1752]

Rough in keys atm not used to rogue not being essential.

[@alexguigui8231]

Good luck as enhance too....

[@VMatrack]

For havoc DH, the issue is that the tank spec of the class is very good at the moment so in most raid groups people tend to get a tank DH and they don't need any havoc for the raid wide dmg buff

[@Granolie]

all the mongrels in his chat being like "so so-and-so is the best still right? is this the best" bruh he constantly explains why these logs can mislead and things on pen-and-paper don't always equal the real thing in practice and it just goes right over chats head I stg

[@cashnelson2306]

i always wonder similar things when i see people like the dude who came in with "hey max hello from europe what do you think about prot warrior" while staring at a screen labeled melee class rankings. like dude are you even watching this stream why are you here

[@jereXIX]

And you know damn well a good amount of them aren’t even running mythic raids anyway. The could literally play any spec as long as the play it well and be fine.

[@romzen]

"Survival does the best single target dps on any melee hunter spec in the game." Love it! =D

[@andrevachon1616]

Havoc just needs some small st buffs and it would be golden. And as for survival they made huge mistakes turning it into a melee. They should have left it as black arrow/explosive shot dot spec for hunter and just made some tweaks to it.

[@Calltrops77]

A massive single target buff. 10% for example would do absolutely nothing. Havoc soulbinds are awful and conduits are useless too.

[@rageman2247]

Doesn't havoc's eye beam do more dps than their chaos strike on pure single target?

[@Calltrops77]

@@rageman2247 chaos strike hits like wet lettuce

[@andrevachon1616]

Hes 100 % right in saying if they keep just doing aura buffs havoc is going to be busted as fuck in aoe. Havoc doesn't need aura buffs it needs st buffs. The conduits and soulbinds are a different issue and are another borrowed power system that has always plagued dh. I say small st buffs because you dont want to be the very top, that's how you get hit with nerf bat. You want to be just below the top

[@andrevachon1616]

@@Calltrops77 a 10% buff would skyrocket the dps are you high? You dont "need" good conduits/soulbinds to do dps if the class is balanced

[@johnturner506]

When talking about ret pala you mention PI, whats this mean please?

[@GoldenMechaTiger]

It means that PI is good for ret.

[@gustavopaim4070]

Power Infusion, is a Priest cooldown

[@wafflehouseisgood]

So as you should know, wings for pally is on a 2 minute cool down. A priests PI is also on a 2 minute cool down. That means as soon as you pop wings you get 20% crit, dmg and healing for 25 seconds and when you get priest PI now you get 20% crit, dmg and healing AND 25% haste for 25 seocnds

[@Tytus01UNIT]

41:57 YES! I'm hoping for survival to be a tank spec for SUCH A LONG TIME. Simple idea: Tank that rides the slow mount bear. So it has a feeling of druid guardian + survival hunter like it is now. I WOULD love that A LOT :D ps: blizz already did Rexxar in HoTs so it would fit a hunter to be a tank.

[@Kject]

As a geezer who plays enhance sham; my guild is only 8/10 in normal but we typically have 2DK , arms war and enh sham for melee. PI enhance sham during doomwinds/ascendance is great damage. Venthyr covenant brings good damage and group heal (with maelstrom stacks and it's basically a full heal to whole group). i don't know the exact numbers but wind fury totem seems to boost unholy dk damage a fair bit (especially if they also have battle shout). Enhance can keep up with unholy DK in dps, (slightly lower) they are just squishy af. a lot of the raid damage crap is very dangerous, like that seed dot during Artificer. Enhance is WAY stronger than the logs show for sure. Super underrepresented, especially with cleave like huntsman and sun king.

[@nos8926]

Am I really the only person that thinks Legions Survival hunter was insanely fun to play? I mean it didnt get popular because of bad tuning - but it didnt need the change either. Now its just BM with melee limit on half of the abilities. Atleast then it was very unique.

[@Dac85]

Right? Mongoose Bite was baseline and had a huge stacking damage % increase, which you could then pivot into a channeled cone for massive damage. Incredibly spiky damage output, which was - at least for me - fun as hell.

[@neon-kitty2281]

it was fun indeed, even thought i pretty much quit my hunter after what they did to the class in legion ( i played hunter briefly in legion for MT). i did mess around with survival in SL too and while its okay its just...meh? like all 3 speccs just feels bland in SL, MM way to static, slow and clunky, BM being as braindead as it was in BFA and surv is well, meele.

[@HumbIeStudent]

is aspect of the turtle really not worth bringing a hunter? i feel like they were particularly useful for huntsman/artificer. You implied its only really good cause of its dmg. (my bad if you only meant survival in this melee vid)

[@Kikosempai]

Survival Hunters have a niche. They can respec into Marksmanship or BM.

[@boomerwow8482]

My friend and i were saying a couple weeks ago that they need to turn survival into a tank spec. There’s no mail tank but there are 3 leather tanks?

[@sligen]

Shamans should get a tank roll like they were suppose to get in BC.

[@sinnis4993]

@@sligen Shaman was NEVER supposed to get a tank role. 2hand Enhancer was a cheese build so they gave them dual wielding to smooth the dmg output and make it less rng. Stop spreading false information.

[@kaiath6439]

I know this is completely off-topic but... What should i use to sim my character? I've been using raidbots and it's good and all but the thing keeps saying that i should use a ring with 133 haste on my WW monk while i have a 130+ versatility ring in my inventory. The haste ring has a socket and the versatility one does not but still... i find it really odd.

[@skoogson5416]

When feral get the dubble leg we can use apex that makes Rip a 4% chance per tic to pop a full bite, with circle that makes Rip tic faster which means more big big bites which means big damage, and feral scales with stats. Feral is looking Good for the future

[@weebig]

They feel so crappy tho with the aoe

[@skoogson5416]

@@weebig For now, but when we can have dubble leg and we use circle which is the aoe leg with all of the dots tick faster and with apex that makes more bites with rip. It looks really Good on paper

[@weebig]

@@skoogson5416 when's double leg?

[@skoogson5416]

@@weebig Not anounced, not even 100% sure it Will happen so might have gone a Little to Wild, but most think that at some point we Will be able to get 2 leg. So at the moment feral Will have to do with great singeltarget and okayish aoe

[@weebig]

@@skoogson5416 no I'm pretty sure it will I think they teased it early. Might be like 9.2 tho like months and months away. I'm excited for it for certain classes it's gnna be insane. Hope it does

[@RealAndyOriginal]

Serious question guys. If I only have time to invest in one character. Should I go melee dps or ranged dps for raid and dungeons? Thinking mage, hunter, warrior or death knight. I want to focus on one class and bring good value to the group. Thanks !

[@kkall8477]

Oh man.. thats a tough one. I play mage and DK rn, I can say playing mage is a much easier time than DK just cus many of the fights both raid and dungeons favor range. But if you're looking for a challenge and a fun time I recommend DK

[@arcady0]

This was recorded before the ranged and healer ones, but released last?

[@dontbanwarren]

Gotta get the hype up for the majority melee dps player base

[@gregross2532]

it required the most editing

[@SkyFossa]

I think you missed out on one point for dks: Grip is worth mentioning, but specifically the grabby hands covenant ability is ALMOST gorefiends as a DPS. In some ways better, and some ways worse.

[@justinn9622]

the one soulbind gives 5% main stat and 2% stat buff to teammates during the duration... thats OP... the utility is incredible in Raid, M+ and in PVP.

[@flameninja00]

@@justinn9622 I personally run Swarming Mist. Having a potential to do mass, nearly uncapped AoE on a 1m cooldown is nutty. Mist regens RP with more targets, so if theres a fat stack of targets, you can pop Mist, then spam Epidemic to your hearts content. Slappy hands is good single target, which I wouldn't think unholy is missing since you can use Unholy Blight, Dark Transformation, and sometimes Apocalypse all at the same time every 45 seconds.

[@justinn9622]

@@flameninja00 it is really good but the pull and interrupt synergy is insane. you can use chill streak in pvp while grabby hands is up and it’s game over lol

[@flameninja00]

@@justinn9622 I'm not saying grabby hands isn't good. I know for sure for PvP that it's incredible. I myself rarely play PvP, and I liked the gameplay feel of Swarming Mist better. Being able to pull 12k+ DPS for a m+ pack or raid trash pack makes my pp hard.

[@EndOfExistence1337]

Survival could already be made ranged so easily. Literally the only attack that is melee is Raptor Strike / Mongoose Bite. They could even have them still use melee weapons, just have aspect of the eagle on permanently (it looks cool) and make it affect autoattacks.

[@ОлегХореев]

Hi! Does dh darkness protect from prideful ticks? Does it protect from HOA ladt boss laser blocking ticks?

[@Omish159]

Yes, to both. It has a chance to block any incoming dmg.

[@20the20]

do you think the meta is going to become more melee focused in later patches? If raids are still bringing a ww monk, that minimum 2 dks, then suddenly a couple warriors, gotta bring an enh sham, and if you dont have a dh tank you need the havoc, all of a sudden the majority of your dps is melee. seems like when a couple things improve slightly raid comps are going to change big time.

[@Arishmael]

If arms become that strong they will most likely bring veng dh and brew monk for the buffs to clear melee spots

[@Arishmael]

Keep in mind that max is talking about the most optimal way to do progression, which means world first guilds.

[@MattyBudzzz]

@@Arishmael if arms becomes strong it will prob be nerfed, seems like Blizzard wanted warrior untertuned from the start for this tier. Double leggos wouldn't change anything for warrior either, their leggos are shit. Conduits same thing, all but 1 is garbage for the most part. So unless they introduce new player power systems and don't continue buffing warrior will most likely stay the way it is

[@20the20]

@@Arishmael thats contingent on brew monk not sucking lol

[@__-fi6xg]

Ehm excuse me..try hc denathrius with melees...

[@williamhudon8273]

Could you explain how sub lost their funnel? They still can press FoK into Evicerate? What did they change from Zul?

[@Nevruary]

FoK increased the damage of your next CP Spender by 10% per target hit. It no longer does that (I believe) because it was broken on 1 boss.

[@YuffoSan]

rogue covenants abilities are crap, we have to pick covenants based on soulbinds which is just gonna be kyrian or fae. our damage sucks unless you're actually good at playing the class and everyone else sucks, even in m+ our dps loses to WW monk and fury warrior but we're just taken cuz of our toolkit. *cries in outlaw*

[@__-fi6xg]

In my guild, best melee is a rogue. Its just, he plays flawlessly.

[@YuffoSan]

@@__-fi6xg im also the best melee in my guild and Im usually part of top 5 on the meters but i can never beat the ranged classes (MM, spriest, aff lock, etc.)

[@MasterJoEJG]

@@YuffoSan What lvl do you raid at?

[@YuffoSan]

@@MasterJoEJG mythic raids

[@MasterJoEJG]

@@YuffoSan ok makes sense that Ranges or other classes outdamage you :D i raid with a group of mostly RL friends and im usually competing at thetop of the dps meter with a mm hunter or firemage just because the others dont play their class well enough. But pll in mythic should know how to play their class. Sadly we are not enough ppl to raid mythic as progress :(

[@cypherx2116]

It seems that some Rogues have been starting to use their 100% crit legendary in PvE more now, as it has a lot of interesting with potential synergies with all their specs. They can essentially get a 4-sec "combust" every time they vanish, allowing you to create a window where you line up your Sepsis proc, back-to-back envenoms/eviscerates, vendetta/shadowblades, etc... Outlaw can even do this around almost every minute too, since they have a passive which lowers the Vanish CD. Do you think this could raise Rogue's value more?

[@taylon5200]

It sounds like value to meeee :D

[@mgk0586]

How are WW doing so good on Sire? My dps goes down like 1k on that fight bc I feel like I'm constantly not able to dps during massacre and crescendo. I don't know what I'm doing wrong :(

[@shadwxh]

Your lacking of precise movement, though P1/P2 damage doesn't matter at all like Max said. P3 is the real deal where it's a DPS Check Race. If you want to improve, check Trill's VODs while playing WW on M Raid.

[@forgd2856]

Something you didn't mention with Frost DK that is probably also important to mention is that many fights in Nathria have mechanics that can absolutely fuck your DPS if you get them during your Breath window, whereas Unholy basically doesn't have that problem at all.

[@Crenshaw41]

finally a channel that doesnt do a stupid intro with parts of what to come. Cheers max and editor if you exist

[@cashnelson2306]

How much do i need to donate for max to get a spellchecker

[@leodiaz1337]

Does anyone know if Limit Lip ever streams?

[@TheZero696]

I think the main selling point of enhance besides wf totem is their insane self healing. They aren't that overly reliant to healers, they can tap their self to full when shit hits the fan so they always will be one of the last to die

[@arcady0]

What does survival do? It has all of the utility of any other hunter, but is also melee. The execute is good, but I don't know how it compares to others. The mobility is really nice. The main reason I played it early on in the expac is that I was coming back from FFXIV, GW2, ESO - and Survival plays like a melee from a more action-combat MMO. I was one of the 2 top DPS in my raid for a bit, but that isn't saying much because we're not high ranking or anywhere close to that. I moved roles to join our healer ranks so I don't know if I would have been able to keep that spot or find a niche later in the raid.

[@MorionAikanaro]

ffxiv redmage is what blizzard should have aimed for with survival hunter..... ranged with a melee burst. but as it is... its just... not good.

[@watchfighting571]

Max, im curious. Have you guys been looking into having a blood DK as a kind of off healer in raids? If they can equip both Vampiric blood legendaries at some point and use Rune tap Conduit for raid wide healing, they seem to be able to pull off alot of raidwide healing, with a 15% stamina and 15% healing increase buff for the whole raid with about 100% uptime. Or am i just smoking some bad shit.

[@maddoggaming1171]

Good to know about hunters... I am not a very good player but I felt like my MM hunter was doing mediocre in M+ (not terrible, I was keeping up with non mage and ww dps'ers fine in my 11-13 s (not able to do 15s yet)) but my hunter is Kyrian for pvp, although I feel like people are getting tanky enough now thats its harder to kill something in a burst window without a lot of setup that a balance druid could do just as well if not better in the same free to pew situation. I thought Kyrian would only be a minor drop compared to doing Night Fae, but I wonder if I am making a terrible mistake and should just switch my covenant. It sounds like a lot of work to do, but I have been gearing up a new alt for pvp anyway since I felt mediocre in arena as a hunter anyway. End of rant. Apologies for wall of text.

[@chimpzorz]

survival has very high uncapped burst and sustained aoe, the down side its a very small aoe so mobs need to get really stacked, pretty much only good in m+ atm. tho if there were surv logs of stone legion mythic they'd probably slap tbh its really need some heavy tuning and core changes with 2 or 3 talents really just need to be baseline, maybe replace then with some kinda of execute type stuff.

[@Stu5727]

SV burst AE is genuinely huge with bomb legendary

[@thunder9236]

I was maining a mm hunter and I agree. Wild spirits is the only good thing but even then you can use resonating arrow and get more dps but lose out on burst. Their single target is not so good.

[@HumbIeStudent]

Also, isn't sub still exceptional funnel? I have to say, just because they got black powder doesn't mean they have to use it.

[@jeromevent4548]

You're right on enhance's funnel no longer being in the game, it used to be lava lash spread flame shock and then you could fire nova (basically epidemic) but thats no longer the case and fire nova is just an unused talent now

[@Mr91Jmay]

That isn’t an example of funnelling

[@guffels]

Will DK still be clear value if AMZ is removed?

[@emilgelting1355]

Really only if army is pi'ed or lusted. But still have spell immunity soaks, high self heals and grips for adds which is immense.

[@dmtuan]

Yesss, totally agree with what you say at 42:36. Old surv hunter was so much fun and then they remove a range spec and make it another melee instead.. AND an underdeveloped one! Surv is bad, little played, bad balanced and they just don’t care, Blizz doesn’t do anything to fix or help it.. just sad. Or a tank hunter? Might we have something great here?? Mhmmm

[@delete_gaming]

"2 minutes are really OP" - Everyone but your girlfriend

[@Grim_the_Clown]

In future may be better to have stream chat/hud on the left as not to block the pages class names. Trying to read what class name was where was super difficult trying to read between lines of chat... other than that helpful vid 👍

[@morganconroy9579]

@ Limit Maximum - I'm an Aussie survival hunter whose pretty average but overall i'd say it's DPS on AOE is pretty fantastic due to Wildfire bomb being uncapped but it suffers in single target. Tuning as of right now is a massive issue as you can be a 99-100 parse player for the spec and still be doing worse than rogues. so you know whatever. Primary issue in my mind is that a number of the talents survival has are mandatory to the point where they should actually be baseline instead for example, guerrilla tactics adss an extra charge to the ability and increases it damage by 100% which basically turns it from a shit ability to a standard ability

[@ByRekon]

what do you recommend for raid and m+? unholy dk or ret pally?(alt)

[@nivyan]

Beastmaster should be a tank spec, with the core feature being a taunt which forces the boss to attack the BM' pet for 2 seconds before switching back to the hunter. The core niche of the tank hunter is, that it brings its own off-tank. Then remake Survival to be a combination of the fun non-tank stuff from BM and old Survival tools (like black arrow, as the video discussed).

[@GamerChefEd]

Well I’m not a mythic raider but Survival brings great burst AoE ST is a little weaker but if you play it well you can definitely be top dps or top 3 can’t forget the free haste buff from my pet

[@CommanderSal]

Loving these. Keep up the great work!

[@lolosh99]

Your profile pic is cute

[@grief8870]

maybe a video on how to read and what too look for in logs?

[@danielbeales2235]

I chose sub rogue at the start of the expansion, knowing it was mainly single target. But chose Night Fae convenant, cause i was told that had the best boost to AOE for the class. I feel like my 'player identitity got shat on even before the release and i didnt know.

[@zenthor3709]

Is rogue fun nowadays mate? Can't decide between him or Paladin to level up as dps

[@danielbeales2235]

@@zenthor3709 to be honest Sub is fun for levelling, but it just performs terribly for content, other then pvp. The other or brain dead rotations, with very little deviation.

[@BYYTET]

I mean if the hunter legendary called "Soulforge Embers" was baseline for Survival they might be middle of the pack with some other legendary.

[@alleks5253]

Even Blizzard doesn't know what Survival Hunter does

[@ralphinoful]

I think you missed enhance's damage niche. It wasn't super useful this tier, but now with Doom Winds, you have a 1 minute, on demand extremely high single-target/aoe burst. It would've been great for a fight like sludgefist, if it wasn't for how horrible the fight was for melee in general.

[@CelestialEmptiness]

SV Hunters have better AoE than BM/MM by a far margin. In M+ if you have a good one he can literally pull big numbers in between bosses in m+. I once had a SV 205 ilvl in SD doing 15-20k dps. I feel the thing with them is that Wildfire bombs have a really weird cone hitting mechanic and some talents should really be baseline. Damage wise in Single target they lack of a burst window but overall the damage is pretty stable, throughout the whole fight. In PVP afaik the number 1 2s is a SV hunter (Bicmex).

[@shimrodson5443]

outlaw strong on stone legion generals? 7th on the list

[@Leronos]

Survival as a tank would be so pog I would actually play that

[@diode_wow]

I've been saying Survival needs to be a Tank for the longest time.

[@butterflysrage]

That would be really interesting... a pet based tank.

[@jamesgoodwin9310]

dude, what is your term with geezers? I've been playing feral since vanilla and always did very well. Playing it personally I've rarely been below other classes and even finished off in the top 150 feral druids for mythic N'ya in the last tier of BFA. and feral is very strong right now.

[@xBoltsz]

if you're this offended by it that's prolly what he was referring to

[@anniedarkheart5224]

It seems in line with "Can't teach an old dog new tricks." Except he isn't offending people by calling them dogs and dehumanizing them.

[@cantasdelen7]

Okay guys lets talk about survival hunter. First things survival is a half melee spec, we have 2 melee skill. First one, raptor strike and other one carve(this skill have a bit range). Also we can use range raptor strike every 1.5 min for 15 sec. If we accept survival is a melee spec, you need the hear this. Survival hunter is the best aoe damage melee spec in this game. We have night fae korayn buff, it give us %25 crit. I mean if you use it with %25 haste, every mob you can use %50 crit chance. We have 2 bomb for every slot, if we can't attack(its impossible because we are half range) dots can do for us. Bombs dont have target cap, thats mean if tank take it 2+ slot your dps is BOM. I remember this, first four pack at m16 halls of atonement my dps 32-33k. Generally every pack(3 mob) you can do 7k+. Single target is bad, i agreed. Like behind the mm %8-10. I have 217 ilvl, generally my end of the dungeon dps 6.5-7k. People don't like survival because they don't have any idea! I want to explain more but my english not that good. - Sorry for my bad language, i'm still learning. -

[@Juggernautdeath2]

You really needed a Venn diagram of Dependent on tuning, Niche, and Clear/High value.

[@Rushhourz0]

I think that a good ret brings more value than you give it credit Max. Though i think ret HAS to be played as support, because theres the math where you lose 4k dmg for outputting a 12k heal if needed. Theres also 2 styles of ret: Kyrianret that has one of the highest bursts in the game on a 1minute cd (between that you can spend holy power healing and still being at orange logs; and then theres venthyr ret that delivers a "raid cd" and consistent dmg (though i havent played that one yet so cant say if it can match/beat the value of kyrian ret. ) Like what ret does it prevents deaths if played right, i feel now more than ever. Rets are also usually the last thing to die in a raid and have bubble and BoP. Because WoG heals for casual 10-14k noncrit, which for me makes it definitely one of the strongest ST Burst heals, that doesnt even have a CD. But ye the thing that makes ret way weaker than it would love it to be is, that hpally has such a high healoutput AND good dps (apart from bringing all of ret support with weaker WoG). So in terms strength Ret is for me overall 3rd place on melees. To elaborate further: offheal:1st, support/raidcd: 3rd/4th place; damage: 3rd, survivability: 1st, burst 2nd(if kyrian), weaker raidcd (if vampire). Also for me Warrior despite all of his stronk support still falls short, because he would consistantly just bring less dps even though your ret is spamming holy power on offheals while his CD's are not up.

[@rehmsmeyer]

Had to deal with a Boomy who was making fun of my dps coming out of P1 on Daddy D. I asked him if he thought P1 damage was important, to which he suggested I "get gud".

[@begaking4304]

Yeah we had some people in my guild bragging about p1 dmg I would usually come out of p1-p2 bottom 5 but end the fight top 5 were as the person bragging about p1 was usually dead or bottom 5 dps lol.

[@arforafro5523]

Tell him you slowed down on purpose so people could clear stacks, always works.

[@rageman2247]

They need to make survival a tank spec so we can finally have a mail tank

[@JC-ok4yx]

I’ve been posting in the forums off and on for years about adding a shaman tank spec focused on Earth elements. Imagine, one of the CD’s could be you turn into an ascended where you merge with an earth elemental and when it breaks you do AOE damage. It doesn’t even have to be a top tier spec, just some added flavor that would give small guilds and PuGs more options for people in a tank role.

[@skulllord5869]

Survival was my favorite when it was ranged. I hope the change it back.

[@Ayksee]

Being a survival hunter main, our niche is... mmm... nothing really. Our bombs on sire are bugged and don't proc off all mobs (uncapped aoe) and then... that's all we have in a raiding sense. Since mongoose bite isn't meta right now - our single target is quite average/below average. Any bosses that have 2 or more then we climb up further. Agree we should have a niche, aspect of the eagle gives all melee range damage for 10 seconds or a buff to the raid.

[@kasper1241]

On the first half of your Sire kill, Trill does more healing than both the tanks. WW is definitely not squishy xD

[@spiffypilgrim8865]

have we ever seen an entire class not be viable in M raiding before? sure specs have always been FotM but all three specs from one class seems like a pretty massive oversight from blizz

[@kasper1241]

Should they put AMZ on a shared CD (like bloodlust) to avoid class stacking?

[@TheCheekybeans]

*cries in rogue main* At least make us A level damage Bliz!

[@JC-ok4yx]

Don’t totally trust the rankings from Mythic Nathria. You can still play them very well but it’s just a lot more difficult and you have a lower ceiling so the *best* players go DK instead. I feel you though, I’ve played rogue almost exclusively since 08 and I consider rerolling after every dungeon when I see lower geared players mindlessly beating me in damage while I’m busy interrupting, stunning, and using my full defensive rotation. Meanwhile hunters in the back just pew pew and forget to turtle.

[@arforafro5523]

I know that feel very well, rogues really need to perform vastly beyond the necessary to bring good dps and utility. a DK can press AMZ and save the group while at best you can play dungeons like an arena match and interrupt with KS, gouge and blind and the DK is likely to pull better numbers. Not only that, Blizzard will remove the interaction between Master Assassin legendary and weapons/trinkets so no more priority on NW for bloody spear or anima crits. On top of that the current content is very oriented towards cooldowns and Outlaw cant pull the massive burst other specs can if you're not cleaving 3-5 targets, I usually top damage because PuG's are garbage and my guild is full of casuals but whenever somebody competent shows up Im flat outmatched unless the fights heavily favor me. I would take the hint from the video and get a sin legendary and gear up for that as the execute and Vendetta burst + good sustained might end up being a better bet if you want to do more than just M+.

[@TheGrego011]

Yup... thens there's arena. Kill,, reset wait for cds get easy 1800.

[@arforafro5523]

@@TheGrego011 Found the zugzug

[@user-fg6it5qo2w]

Totally on board for tank survival spec

[@Delarissa]

Survival dps is so fun and feels engaging. Unfortunately it's melee and people want more ranged so want you to play the ranged specs which I don't find as fun. It would have made a great dps spec for some theoretical Tinker class, with explosives, mechanical pets, etc.

[@dontbanwarren]

If you EVER have the option to play ranged DPS you'll be expected to play it unless the melee option offers a unique buff, CD, or ability that you NEED and they'll only want as few as they can get away with generally. Opting into melee DPS over ranged DPS when you could be ranged without much fuss is sometimes just outright trolling. See: Feral or Survival

[@Delarissa]

@@dontbanwarren As a lifelong happy tank, I really only dps alt raids and as I tank and am the GM, people let me bring my survival hunter. I do alright comparatively to others in the raid as I have put the effort to squeeze what I can out of it. I do recognise however that it is suboptimal and I probably should just play at least BM if not MM.

[@dontbanwarren]

@@Delarissa Don't get me wrong, I think you or others SHOULD play what they want, at the end of the day it's a game. I do think current Survival should be reworked into a tank however and this DPS version of survival should be made a new class/spec.

[@Delarissa]

@@dontbanwarren i agree and would support that change. DCUO has a tank class that uses a pet and I think that it could be an interesting direction to take the class. Although I'm also the crazy guy in my guild that says that disc priest would make a good chassis for a cloth tank...

[@asimpletrashgoblin8109]

@@Delarissa I was recently leveling a disc priest, so this story is incredibly anecdotal; I was in a dungeon and my paly tank would get nuked and I could be able to tank through atonements. It was like level 20, and who knows what passives and spells people had. Even with atonement up on the tank prepull he'd get wiped. Soo... As fellow "Resident Insane Guildie" I agree with you!!

[@knfbnny]

This is my new favourite wow content channel

[@jereXIX]

So, geezer specs are Survival, Feral, and Enhance...did I miss any? 😂

[@vacancy2339]

What does PI mean?

[@alexkalaitzidis681]

Power Infusion

[@sadkat9162]

Incredible how Max thinks that Arms, a literal 3 button 30 APM spec is harder than Fury. Sure enough both specs are easy to pilot but the only hard thing about Arms is trying not to fall asleep during the fight while Fury is at least GCD capped and has some decisionmaking during cooldowns while Arms is just 1 button during CDs.

[@leffy3629]

Wrong, arms isn't a literally 3 button spec. Gotta maintain lots of debuffs, and control CD's with wise choices. You play fury, i can tell. it's why you're saying this. Fury is the one you don't need to think about. hit what's up.

[@sadkat9162]

@@leffy3629 I'm not sure if this is satire but just in case it isn't I'll just have to remind you - Arms has literally 1 debuff to maintain. Deep Wounds. Colossus Smash is not a maintainable debuff as it is a DPS cooldown. Also, Arms offensive rotation - Mortal Strike, Slam, Overpower. When you reach Execute phase, replace Mortal Strike with Execute and only press Mortal Strike once every 12 seconds. Literal 3 buttons.

[@leffy3629]

@@sadkat9162 You seem tense bro, relax. Fury is easier. You don't need to think at all about anything. Just hit what pops up.

[@sadkat9162]

@@leffy3629 >You don't need to think at all about anything. Just hit what pops up. Yeah, Arms is the same. Except for Arms, you get 3.6 seconds to decide which of your 3 abilities to use next. For Fury, it's You seem tense bro, relax. You seem like a typical shitter who blurts out some outrageously wrong info and then hides behind "you mad bro" when called out. You're not fooling anyone, though. Don't you have a Normal Shriekwing to wipe on?

[@NezumiTheMouse]

Survival hunter is the tanky (relative to other hunter specs anyway) constant dmg spec for hunter but it realy dose not bring anything to raids that you cant get out of other hunters I'll stand by it being reworked into a new pet based tank even if it would not be meta it would at least be something for it to lol

[@Dac85]

Survival's numbers obviously aren't good, but it's main drag is that it's boring to play. IMO, Mongoose Bite should be baseline, and have the huge stacking increase to its damage that it had in Legion. That could get really fun with the giant crits, and cashing it out with a channeled cone that benefitted from the damage increase? Good times. I don't know how anyone plays Surv these days without picking up the Mongoose Bite talent. Sure, 15% per stack isn't as big as 50% per stack, but at least it's something that adds a little flavor to your damage.

[@donbalule]

As a Survival i would say we highly depend on tuning, because we don't have a lot of Burst but do vers constant dmg. We sure bring all the advantages the other two specs do when id depends on Immunitys, Traps etc. btu nothing where you could say bam we're better in this or that point of view. Blizzard constantly degenerated the spec since Legion. For example Traps: I don't want to stay the other two specs should not have them, but back in Legion we were able to upgrade them, change propertys and so on. we are indeed not caped at a number of targets, so we do best in situations with a lot of targets but i think thats just because bliz forgot about us ;)

[@Lifeslayer8]

when i puged low lvl m+ (7 and under) i sometimes found those rare survival hunters but they were actually pumping big numbers especially in aoe. i think survival is a cool ideea like you and you pet are fighting side my side (like kiba from naruto). imo what screws survival is the fact that the spec is so rng based :/

[@EndOfExistence1337]

Rng based? How? I don't really see that at all.

[@Erestron]

The Enhancement funnel ability from highmaul is now called epidemic ~_~

[@jansladkowski9680]

How does an Aoe rp spender spell help funnel dmg into one Target?

[@bustocream97]

I want survival hunter to be good :'( I love the feeling of being a guy with a spear and a hawk.

[@xadion6866]

it sounds very good. sad that its unwanted.

[@RDB33]

go play in the back yard then, and gimme my ranged spec back

[@RealCecilion]

Im pretty sure if survival wouldnt be a Hunter with 2 ranged specs which one of the 2 is always upper middle class or better it wouldnt be so Bad and you could find new utility if it’s a whole new class, Same goes for feral tho

[@RDB33]

@@RealCecilion but it isn't, and it went from being one of the most popular hunter ranged specs, to almost unused in any content of the game. time to revert it imo

[@RealCecilion]

@@RDB33 but it wont so better off making it a whole new spec

[@RPZSTA]

Affliction Legion execution in Argus was probably the most broken execute in the game imo. Its why they topped the charts.

[@JasperDD]

Yeah like when they removed Rets old passive I was face palming because it was so strong and almost made them a class you would bring just for the last phase of a like week 1 or week 2 last boss kill! F for Ret

[@DrJazz613]

I main Blood DK and Survival Hunter. Survival Hunter gets a really really bad rep. Their single target is really good. I haven't had any issues getting into Heroic Groups for Nathria and have done multiple Mythic 13+ keys on it. The class really shines in PvP though, specifically in BGs. I understand why it's not popular, and it is weird. It is truly a ranged/melee hybrid and is super fun to play.

[@xNero96x]

I played survival in nyalotha were the fun was to see your cd go of cooldown and still have the buff from the previous one, but now with low haste ot's imposible. Still think it should get a big rework and move it's spender form mangoose/raptor to bombs, kill comand and serpent sting, basically make your melee a generator and your gadgets(what survival should be about) do the damage. Also, coordinated assult changed to something else other than just plain damage.

[@bogguslife]

You get into groups because they think you’re mm, just sayin. Not that there’s anything wrong with it survival is 100% fine for heroic pugs but they definitely are expecting an mm

[@DrJazz613]

@@bogguslife false, every group I've got into I have whispered or been whispered about what spec I am. You are just stuck in the mindset that no one wants survival because that's what mythic raid graphs are showing. I am currently working on mythic natria with my guild and it's going just fine.

[@galleo9462]

Still so sad they fucked with retri aura passive :( and our blessings hurt me as a ret main i still play it tho

[@maddoggaming1171]

Agreed. I am not a paladin main, but would bring my ret to guild runs if my main wasn't needed. I also loved it in pugs. Healers loved me because of blessings. I felt really useful simply by being there. Now I do ok'ish dps and just feel like I could be swapped out for a plethora of higher dps specs or a lower dps with with a niche. Why did we have to lose our niche and no other class did?

[@stankweezul5715]

@@maddoggaming1171 bro what you talking about? Our burst is stupid powerful, our survivability is top notch with WoG and multiple shielding bubbles, stuns on demand, oh and did I mention stupid powerful burst?

[@maddoggaming1171]

@@stankweezul5715 true they do have fantastic burst which is quite good for several fights for high priority adds or like sludgefist. My point was they are slightly above middle of the pack and other classes bring more impactful utility and we dont bring a niche anymore. Havoc DH brings a debuff and a strong raid survival cooldown, warriors do less damage than us but bring a raid dps buff a raid survivability buff and do great execute phase damage which is important for Sire. All the while Unholy dk's do more damage and do execute and bring a very strong raid buff. By no means is ret bad, but feel like they reduced the need to bring us. Lets hope tuning stays good.

[@stankweezul5715]

@@maddoggaming1171 ok gotcha, yeah I can get on board with that.

[@elrilmoonweaver4723]

Seeing WW monk in top damage makes my heart swell and gives me hope that I TOO will one day be OP :D (Of course, I don't raid or do M+, but that does not mean I don't wanna absolutely polverize mobs while I do WQ or skin or players when I do BGs).

[@metalscream3934]

Oh boy I been waiting for this

[@romzen]

Rogues are currently only viable for Myth+ due to utility. You don't need their utility in raid and the damage is underwhelming. In addition, they are much harder to play on high level. 90 percentile rogues are much lower than 99 rogues. And even 99s aren't worth taking. Rather take unholy for another AMZ.

[@jc6087]

Enhance has the best funnel. It also has Doomwinds 1min cd.

[@sjwhater]

Lol no

[@MissMarvel_]

Isn't a geezer an old man? Or does it mean something different to you? Just wondering how to judge myself as a Mythic-raiding feral main 😭

[@alexqtp]

Your still a geezer

[@asimpletrashgoblin8109]

Someone else put it into the context of "person stuck in old habits". Using geezer (a gender-neuteral term) as opposed to "can't teach an old dog new tricks". Something about calling people dogs in that sense dehumanizes them. I can see it, but don't feel it personally. And what he means is that (from what I've gathered from context clues) there's not too many reasons other than player preference to be X over Y. X being feral, survival and Y being Boomy, MM

[@MissMarvel_]

@@asimpletrashgoblin8109 Yeah, that tracks. Idk man I just think feral's fun 😂😂 if that makes me a geezer then so be it, I'm still doing higher damage than our boomies anyway

[@RZethusE]

Good talk about melee 👍

[@kevinschretter6068]

damn i waited for this

[@DuskChill]

Survival has extremely high uncapped burst aoe (using Cluster legendary, 15 second recharge; also translates to strong cleave), and is arguably the most mobile melee spec, but it's single target is absolute garbage and is the main thing bringing down the overall damage. Also brings no utility that ranged hunters don't already bring.

[@ayayashiba1231]

Less than mage or dk tho

[@myspaceimnic]

Maxs' thoughts on survival: change it

[@MrTimbo067]

Survival will come along. Probably be in the middle of the pack damage wise after a patch or two. After all, its just numbers that can be easily adjusted. It will never be the top damage hunter spec, if for no other reason than the hunter community would absolutely melt down if the melee tree was the top damage hunter spec.