Melee Science: Can Samus win a super major?

[@TheBaninaworld]

I believe personally believe samus is in a spot that peach once was, where nobody believes winning a big tournament is possible with her and that she can survive in the tournament meta quite well but to bring home the big wins she cant be solo mained We just need someone who is to samus as armada was/is to peach and bring a true show of samus to the top play

[@harpot678]

Plup if he didn't drop Samus

[@jacobs7360]

6 minute video for "maybe if the players get better"

[@Oakwin_mb]

You can sum up any video in a sentence, the whole point of the video is to talk for 5~ minutes about the topic.

[@pirateclick1d169]

@@Oakwin_mb spot on

[@Isabelleadshead6917]

I'd like to hear a talk about pikachu or yoshi 2 characters i feel just aren't explored enough and could be devolved much further and have a lot going for them

[@Stupidiusity]

Dan Adshead I completely agree with you about Pika. There simply aren't enough high level Pikachu players out there for him to be fully developed. I think if people gave him more credibility, we could see a lot of suprising things.

[@DrewMcDaniel]

i think we've seen closer to pikachu's and yoshi's full potential than we have samus' for sure. both axe and amsa are/were respectively crazy dedicated to their characters and the game

[@ImmortalPEGASI]

but think about if we had someone else other those two. think about how losing PPMD for now is destroying falco's metagame.

[@b.p.5324]

Having other pikas and yoshis would definitely push their potential and metagame due to varying playstyles, but otherwise IN MY OPINION axe and amsa are closer to the peak of their characters than the current samus mains

[@timwinterhalter5233]

Axe has actually said that personal style contributes a great deal to how a character is played, and though he is the most successful Pikachu, he still doesn't know everything about the character and all of his possible options. Even he learns from people like Anther or Pikachad.

[@limland2255]

Axe finally did it for pikachu

[@meleemty6587]

this is and advice for all of you , tournments are winned by players not by characters.

[@TaskMaster5]

It's a tad short sighted to not factor the character. Character matters more than people realize. In theory the better player will always win but the win won't be nearly as clean if the match up is grossly out of alignment. Like Mango could probably beat a Sheik player with DK (In theory) but he wouldn't be dicking on people nearly as bad as he would if he was playing Fox, for example. There's player match ups then there are character match ups that determine victory. Two sides of the same coin.

[@meleemty6587]

yeahh and thats why only 5 guys win every tournment ,stop and be realistic the evo isnt wined by jiglypuff,hbox win evo

[@meleemty6587]

im not talking about the "what if",im talking about the facts ,hbox wins evo with jigly puff vs the best character in the game ,again be realistic

[@dereklewis4321]

Melee on Mty But charecters play a factor. GnW will never beat an equal skilled marth due to GnW broken shield

[@takashit7070]

But if you have 2 equaly skilled players. The one with the character that has more tools to win/ more op wins.

[@doan7209]

What about a skilled Roy?

[@tba6]

Whos here when pika and falcon have already won super majors.

[@Adrian.Christ]

Samus can win. The only criteria to win a national is that the character has the tools to deal with the best characters in the game at super high levels, which she does (in my incredibly unprofessional opinion). Now a a complete shit tier character like Bowser will NEVER win a nation because he literally doesn't have answers to top tier shenanigans.

[@Bones0]

You said Samus struggles vs. Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik, but based on Smash.GG's data this isn't the case at all. Within the top 100, Samus has solid win ratios over Marth and Falco (66.7% and 58.3% respectively) and her losing ratio vs. Fox and Falcon aren't bad either (45.7% and 47.8%). Sheik is her real nightmare with an abysmal 29.4% win rate, and with the recent prevalence of Sheiks at top level, it's a problem that isn't going away anytime soon.

[@FashionGamer]

Where in smash.gg is this data?

[@Bones0]

blog.smash.gg/year-end-review-samus-c035210c6fa3

[@UberGingah]

Bones0 Samus has nearly even matchups against Fox, Falco, and Marth, but has a slight disadvantage (60/40 or 65/35) against sheik bc of needles (breaks projectiles, including full charge shot, nullifies cc, and stuffs Samus's approach), edge guarding, her ability to avoid cc dsmash and quite simply sheik's ability to get Samus in the air, which either puts Samus in the position of needing to land (which Samus is not great at) or getting tech chased on a platform, but still, the sheik matchup is unfavorable but far from impossible

[@Bones0]

To be clear, I wasn't stating my opinions on the matchup, but rather providing data of the current meta's landscape. Tafo described Samus as struggling vs. characters that she really isn't having trouble against based on results. The only matchup she's struggling in is vs. Sheik and while I don't believe it's unwinnable by any means, any Samus main trying to take a major will need to improve on their Sheik matchup because you're unlikely to get a bracket these days without at least one or two solid Sheik mains. Perhaps they don't even need to change much of their gameplay outside of improving consistency. I'd have to study Samus vs. Sheik gameplay closer to really be able to say.

[@wowie_allie7404]

The problem with the way you look at the data is you need to take into account how good the players at these particular characters are. In the top 100, Duck being 15th, and Hugs being 38th, (if you count Plup, 6th, if you count ESAM, 68th) There are plenty of Falcos and Marths that are significantly worse than these players, so if Duck say goes against, say, Squid, he will most likely win against him -- not because the matchup is good for Samus, but because he's just way better than Squid.

[@Rom0.5]

I'm soooo sad not to see Plup's Samus anymore... I mean, if he doesn't want to play her anymore, it's ok, but he was soooo great with her

[@SkuIIKn1ght]

Little disappointed You guys didn't include esam's magic moment against armada at summit.

[@philippwo8]

SK That was against Fox

[@dereklewis4321]

Philipp Wodenutscharow Esam was playing Samus

[@TheBucketSkill]

Not worth mentioning, he was character locked fox. Most foxes struggle with samus if they have no knowledge of the MU. Armada met him in tournament and gave him the swift dick with his peach.

[@dereklewis4321]

TheBucketSkill Even locked ESAM still took a game off the worlds best player who is in fact a fox main. Id say its worth highlighting but not the biggest upset sense it wasnt the actual tournament bracket

[@SkuIIKn1ght]

If it was against any other fox accept maybe mango I wouldn't have mentioned it, but like you said it was against the #1 player in the world. Not sure why people from some of those earlier comments jumped down my throat for it. :/

[@MetalSlimeDrummer]

Your tone, and delivery in speaking to the camera are improving. Thank you for working on that.

[@bradwurst8141]

Would be very interested to hear your insights on Luigi. He teeters between high & mid tier, his representation among top level players is thin, and the best Luigi mains (Abate, Eddy Mexico) do not travel regularly. Does the character rely on jank? Was Abate's performance at TBH5 the last we'll see of Luigi in a major's top 8? Or is there potential for Luigi as a pocket character for bad matchups, such as Swedish Delight thought at Smash 'n Splash 2 against Hbox? Is Luigi merely an introductory character for those learning the game? What can keep Luigi afloat in a meta with characters that have far more at their disposal?

[@YUSoEpic]

I'd like to hear : Are ICs just a gimmick or are they an actual good character?

[@DrewMcDaniel]

theyre good imo. if wobbles didnt quit i think he would have been consistantly on level w the "gods" and leffen and axe. chudat is starting to get really dedicated to them now so we might see some notable w's from him soon

[@YUSoEpic]

I think they are good too, I just want to hear Tafo's opinion on them

[@jaredmartin7040]

Simon VP Gimmicky as hell

[@jaredmartin7040]

I wouldn't mind banning all that crap,it would be more fair.Fuck wobbling it belongs in the garbage

[@TheEssentialHughJazz]

I think they're a gimmick, from what I've seen/played. Some cool things can be accomplished but there's no way an ICs player is winning any real tournament without wobbles

[@RiskyBiscuit]

I would be super happy to hear about Ganon. I think that newer players have sped him up to a degree where he is much better than on the current official tier list, and we've seen some decent success from Ganon.

[@ponch9634]

i would like to hear you talk about peach's placement on a tier list since nobody has had as much success as Armada.

[@lolXDimcool]

you should talk about puff and the characters history and where you think she currently stands, and could stand in the future based upon her options available to her

[@RobertNobert97]

I think an analysis of Luigi as a viable character would be worth discussing. Luigi has lots of tools to make him useful, but just as many flaws. I would enjoy hearing someone else's take on his viability.

[@tehchives]

I'd really like to hear you talk more in depth abou ice climbers next or in the future Tafo. thank you!

[@hardnewstakenharder]

Don't forget, Plup still uses Samus as a counter pick and took a stacked regional (Smash Conference?) against SFat's Fox.

[@DrewOPowell]

I'd like to hear about peach. How Armada showed how fast and punish heavy you can be with her in contrast of how old school players like DA|Mike, Wife, and krazyjonez played peach. Also talk about her mu chart and potential for the future.

[@xSolBadguy]

The grey area as to whether or not a character can win a super major doesn't start with Pikachu, it starts with Falcon.

[@Jfoltz39]

Would love to hear your thoughts on Yoshi.

[@nf7998]

Yoshi has the potential to win a tournament. Amsa is still pretty new compared to most pros and he consistently wins local tournaments in Japan.

[@johnhurley8918]

If Plup were still playing Samus, the Samus meta would be making a lot more progress. Hopefully Hugs and Duck can make up the difference.

[@earlybird3723]

I feel the characters most suffering from a lack of player base are the DJC characters (Yoshi, Peach, mewtwo and ness). Seriously, Double Jump Cancelling adds some serious punish potential and neutral options. While we have good examples of Yoshi and Peach optimized in tournament (even then, only one good Yoshi), Mewtwo and Ness lack a dedicated player base. We only get to see their potential when Leffen or Hbox play friendlies. :(

[@jeremyjones4559]

If I have to suggest just 1 character for you to analyze next, I'd request Pikachu. However, I believe Yoshi, Luigi, and Doc would be just as interesting. I'd like to hear if you think the days of Ganon's viability are gone forever (I think they are, but the video would be interesting nonetheless)

[@elim9054]

Samus can definitely win if ESAM comes back to Melee Kappa

[@jc9800]

I'd love to hear your talk about Luigi. I personally feel he is a interesting character when talking about viability

[@matthewleibfred760]

Talk about doc. There aren't any in the top 100 for some reason yet are 9th on the tier list

[@RebeccaLoran]

From what I've learned Samus is a very strategic character, so it probably depends on understanding how to take advantage of that. It seems like most Samus players also play chess, so I guess it depends on the skill of the player to be viable or not.

[@sylvistream1]

What's the fate of Falco and how will we see him in the future?

[@firly3]

PLEASE do a piece on Ganondorf and his viability because it's very debated and I'm interested in your opinion on it

[@wyattsmeaton9696]

But for real Tafo please talk about Doctor Mario. I feel like he has virtually disappeared since Shroomed switched to sheik. It would be interesting to see your take on the character

[@chuckymtg3205]

As long as Hbox exists, I don't think that samus can win a super major.

[@strawhats100]

Chuck Smithson hbox has had close calls against duck and Plup has beaten hbox multiple times with Samus when he Mained her.

[@dereklewis4321]

strawhats100 Beaten him in games. i cant think of a set he beat hbox that he didnt go shiek

[@Tomy762]

Well if there are other gods in the tourney, the samus player is not guaranteed to play him though

[@acousticpark6881]

MY OPINION: Fox: Clearly an amazing character, can win any tournament, has no bad matchups, combos and projectiles are awesome. Falco: Near perfect character, no bad matchups, has great combos and projectiles, only held back by recovery. Marth: Combos and disjointed range grant him the ability to win any tourney. Sheik: Less good than Marth, but not far behind due to speed and combos. Jigglypuff: Very good character, held back by weight. Peach: Exploits almost all weaknesses, great character overall. Ice Climbers: Good enough to win a super major, but barely. Great combos, but too inconsistent. Great secondary. Captain Falcon: Can win a super major, but not by much. Combo game is great, but recovery is crippling. Pikachu: Can only win a super major if played at god level. Great recovery and kills, but can't approach. Samus: Will not win a major unless played at god level. Amazing edge guarding with projectiles, but too easy to kill. No other character has potential.

[@blakedorian1]

This aged well. Proof you said axe could never win summit as Samus

[@dirediredocs]

Could we see a melee science video for Doc?

[@willleach4948]

Doctor Mario would be amazing! He is one of the most underdeveloped characters of the entire cast

[@Orbrun]

4:44 Was that the Morrowind theme in the background?

[@jalensmith6371]

I'd love to hear you talk about luigi. He has so many different areas that aren't quite understood yet. And I think his mobility alone if optimized would greatly improve his rankings in tournaments. He's viable, but is he a waste of time?

[@elnietodelmichoacano5153]

I like how he says " I guess you could throw Falcon in there" LOL poor Falcon.😂

[@LittleLeaf51]

I would ask your take on Young Link, but I would expect it to be very brief and not enough to warrant a video talking about it since there's nobody out there making waves with the character and he's still considered to be stuck in the role he's had for several years now as a situational counterpick. Unfortunate.

[@Ch0senSK]

I would like to hear about you talking about why there aren't that many Falco's in the top level of play. Outside of Mango, Westballz, and PPMD, we don't see that many Falco's. We see more Fox, Marth, and Sheik more than we see Falco.

[@EnergizingBane]

Luigi/doc?

[@Huedtunes]

tafo was going down the list then stopped right before them! I think luigi has a lot of potential (im a lot more familiar with him than doc) and Abate has done well in the past. Others like eddy and luigikid have done well too and luigi still has not come close to reaching his peak with all the tech he has.

[@b.p.5324]

make doc great again :/

[@DoTheBacon]

Leffen thinks Doc is a good spacie counter pick due to his cape and edge guarding, though unfortunately his recovery is weak. I'd say Shroomed was the best Doc player but he dropped him for shiek

[@threnody2012]

Luigi would be a struggle but it might be possible. I think abate is the standout luigi at this point in time who's clearly better than the other luigi's (although not by a DRASTIC amount) but he isn't full time. He's somewhat like falcon in that when he's on he looks insanely good but when he's off it looks bad. Luigi kid is on the rise too and may have some interesting results coming up in 2k17. At the very least I think Luigi has falcon level potential in that we could see players making top 30 MIOM rankings and placing top 16/top8 at nationals with him if people got good enough. Doc is probably better than luigi potential wise, but the problem is that Doc is superseded by other characters that do the same things that are better than him, namely sheik/falcon. Luigi has that uniqueness where people can't really "switch" to a better version of him, but most doc players will probably switch off once they get to a certain level.

[@devonhajduk9107]

Doc is great! Utilize his very creative edge guards and fundamentals!

[@Fenald]

If armada didn't exist peach would be considered a worse character than samus.

[@fuckfacemcboogerballs7876]

Is Peach a good character or is Armada just that much better than everyone?

[@becauseican66]

Samus is a good character. Very fun to play and has the ability to gimp for a kill pretty early. I play samus, there are some. Unfavourable matchups like falcon and peach but played correctly, any matchup can be won. I feel like she needs. To be explored more. There's a lot of potential in her, though lacking some aspects. I play her along side fox and sheik, but samus is by far the most fun to play.

[@TaylorTaxpayer]

you talked about Samus for six minutes and only mentioned the greatest Samus ever one time. plup still plays Samus as a secondary and continues to have the greatest and most consistent achievements with the character give some love guys

[@choicespecseltonjohn3356]

I'm gonna be honest, when Tafo said he thought Samus could win a supermajor, I didn't think he'd use HugS as his main argument. Duck and Plup are still the best two Samus players, nice to see Hugs improve though. The fact that Duck went from #22 to #15 not only shows he's just off the top 10, but is also improving at a good rate. Plus Axe is top 10 with a character generally seen just as viable so why not Samus?

[@kylemanley915]

Luigi and Falco need to be talked about

[@alexanderespinoza]

Dewd if you could bring in ppmd and collab on Marth and Falco or just one I think that would be very interesting

[@BurninTaco]

I'd love to hear about Luigi and Doc!

[@hana-ng4ql]

long answer:once hugs lands a shot short answer:no

[@moncala7787]

The real question is: Can a non-God win a Super Major?

[@CursedWulfGaming]

I think Leffen said there was a 5% chance that one of the super majors in 2017 would be won by a non god but I won't agree with him until a non god takes a set off Armada.

[@rujabsjsidwhhssi1189]

@@CursedWulfGamingleffen fucking beat all the gods

[@cellgoondude]

Pikachu and Yoshi both have players and they're really good Luigi and Mario both have players who play them really well and we can see them around time to time So what the hell happened to Doc after Shroomed switched.

[@CNSKATEFOOL]

Talk about the rise and fall of ganondorf

[@goateeguy11221122]

So what I'm getting is "I thought Samus couldn't win because she doesn't do great against top tiers but then I saw Hugs do great against top tiers and now I think she can win" Maybe I'm being harsh but I think the question needs more definition and more specific analysis for there to be anything interesting here.

[@Brian-rp7dj]

Surely Plup switching to Sheik is a data point here that isn't being considered. Why would the best Samus player switch off if he felt the character could win a super major, he almost undoubtedly has the best understanding of the limitations of the character. I believe there's a lot more to come from Samus, there are a lot of under explored character specific mechanics that make her very different, but I don't believe HugS improving over the course of the month is a valid basis for your argument.

[@rentsy3444]

Pikachu won a major

[@ChamplooMusashi]

the main reason Samus and Pikachu win is because there's little opportunity to practice vs them, whereas there's ample opportunity to play vs Fox/Falco etc. Fox wins every matchup in the game. When judging viability for winning a supermajor the main thing you should be thinking about is "Would this beat Armada's Fox & Peach". Also Falcon has no chance of winning a supermajor

[@lightbrand_]

Hugs is currently 15th best in the world, I don't know if he will continue to rise, but if Plup sticked to Samus he could've gotten it

[@gah7691]

The real question is, can Bowser win a super Major? :^)

[@125conman]

Well it's 2023 and we haven't seen a Samus in a big top 8 in years.

[@LEAFNINJA69]

could talk about abate and his luigi

[@evanstowers8529]

Samus seems like she would have a really high skill ceiling...she has so many tools.

[@cy5434]

0:39 Why fox so low?

[@Dunco64]

can you talk about why there are so few high ranked falco mains despite him being so high in the tier list?

[@DJSerpent]

Duncan Ryan I have no idea, but I am going to assume that he is harder to use than Fox lol.

[@Megatwilightwarrior]

Duncan Ryan This is because Falco is extremely good at lower level, similar to marth, by way of his options (lasers) seemingly having no counters. However, falcos weaknesses at higher level are glaring, as any halfway decent player can powershield consistently or get around lasers in some way to make them waaay less effective. And after getting exploited, falco is the easiest top tier in the game to kill. He is just really inconsistent, and a falcos neutral game has to be impeccable to survive

[@ChamplooMusashi]

Falco isn't actually that good and he's been overrated for years. PP, Wes, and Mango just carried his placement in the tier list for a while. Same with Peach and Jiggs for Armada and Hbox

[@chaoticentity9513]

ChamplooMusashi "Falco isnt actually that good" Have you seen any of his frame data boy ??? Falco is easily one of the top 5 characters in the game (i dont think he is 2nd ) not just due to frama data but his options are not only extremely good but unique as well making for one of the most complex and diverse characters in the game to play. Yes he is a fastfaller i know and it makes for scrumptious combo food but it also makes for an even tastier combo game that really no one can match. Hes a reckless killing machine. All Falco mains can hear me out on that.

[@Thierce]

Falco doesn't have a recovery

[@william2154]

Tafokis youre so adorable I wanna pinch your cheeks and feed you cake

[@oliverrainer5771]

Ok, wtf

[@MTGNoobma]

What about the doc tafo?

[@MatiGra32]

Talk about Pikachu! Is he viable?

[@tyr4489]

What happened to Doc? He used to be a fairly popular, semi-viable character who just completely disappeared after Shroomed dropped him. Now, I hear talk of Shroomed being nowhere near the full potential of Doc, and yet there isn't a single Doc in the top 100, desire there being Luigis and Marios, both characters who are considered to be worse. Where are the results? Is Doc just bad?

[@dertdobber]

I think you should talk about Luigi next

[@mondomantra]

Talk about why Falco is unpopular in the top 100. I'm interested in your take on that. A good character like Falco should have more top 100 representation, but doesn't when compared to Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Falcon.

[@Johndxboy]

Answer is Yes. But only if all the Gods get food poisoning during the tournament.

[@ryversims4422]

but u leave the god slayer alone? watch out guys we got a leffen fan over here

[@ThatLegitBeast]

ryver sims Well leffen does have a Samus problem. pretty smart if you think about it

[@elijahrcraig]

Maybe talk about Luigi?

[@eric3420]

title should be, "can Hugs win a super major?"

[@Nikkerman]

CONGRATS ON THE ENGAGMENT TAFO!!!!!!

[@f2dajay]

Hey can you do Doc Mario next??

[@Justinat3r]

talk about the dingus of the game! Luigi and peach should have an rng episode!

[@SkyNinja759]

Samus is really good against fastfallers in my opinion. I think she wins against Fox/Falco/Falcon, she doesn't dominate but I would say it's 60-65/40-35 in favour of Samus. The real problem for my Samus when I play is against floaty characters than you can't gimp. This is why I think there's potential in double maining Falcon and Samus. Use Samus for space animals and Falcon's horrible matchups, then siwtch to Falcon for killing Peach and Puff. If people could get down the pacing for each character switching mid set to the other really throws off the opponent. It goes from rush-down to defensive/reactive and low/mid level players probably have trouble with one of these sides. You think about player matchups as well, not just characters.

[@MCMike-jk8kl]

Falco on the new meta: peach, puff and ics mu vs falco. Why we don't see falcos winning a major

[@joeybtheman1906]

thats dope that huggo is getting better :D

[@Makeitmakesense999]

talk about why armada is so much better than any other peach, if there was one more peach that was a god would she be higher on the tier list?

[@ureallyneedalife]

If plup stays samus he would be the first to win a super major with her.

[@alex1212456]

shout out to yahoo for promoting the greatest game ever made

[@JakPlaysPokemonTCG]

Samus doesn't struggle with Marth, it's a bad Matchup for Marth...

[@Gamerman9000]

I believe Santiago would quit if Samus won a major

[@comettitun8087]

How viable is peach.

[@Gorillastache]

#1 player in the world is a peach main. Do you really need to ask that?

[@CoIacso]

Gorillastache the question is. Does Armada carry Peach? The next peach main is MacD who doesn't have as much results as other non god Foxes/Falcos/Marths

[@toyotagaming]

Armada carries Peach.

[@smashpuntofijo3784]

Same case with Jigglypuff and Hungrybox, while the 2nd best Puff Player is nowhere near his level anyways

[@nekaiizlove9511]

Gorillastache But Armada carries Peach, like Hbox with Jigglypuff

[@il100374]

Characters like pikachu and samus will never win a super major. It's almost impossible in today's meta. Maybe back in 2015 or some shit Axe could have got like 3rd at a super major but with players like Hbox, Armada, Mango, M2K, Plup, and Leffen all using top 5 characters and attending almost every super major, players like Axe and Hugs aren't gonna be able to get through them all. They're lucky to get top 8.

[@danielcespedes6910]

Id like to hear about ganon

[@patoa3481]

The real question is: Is Kirby viable?

[@WhiteMC100]

could you do a luigi episode?

[@yu4ia]

Please talk about Kirby.

[@smashjigglypuffisnotfemale1130]

If Plup can just get past Armada, then it's most definitely possible.

[@alekthevampire]

Doc, Pika and Yoshi viability

[@sarika3689]

By the way Melee is played now, Samus can win. That's only theoretical, so taking in more variables like Samus players, the current knowledge of the Samus matchup and the reliability of her advanced tech, she can't right now. Maybe if a Samus gets lucky and faces Leffen in Grands?

[@NinteddyRose]

Do falco. Its interesting how he is so high on the tier list but at top levels is only used by like 5 people lmao

[@ImmaFarmerInMalaysia]

Can Bowser win a super major.

[@jamieHorman]

You should be playing Falco amd math FactZ