Metal Planer Restoration 34: Machining new Double T-Nuts for the Clapper Box Saddle

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Thanks again....Keith you are fun to watch for this old man....!

[@thomaschandler8036]

Love to see a man that knows what he is doing..and you are the man..

[@Landrew0]

Thank you for not breaking this up into two videos.

[@SlipFitGarage]

I agree!

[@ramanshah7627]

This episode really reminded me of Helmut Krebs, my machining teacher in grad school at U Chicago...that's a big compliment. Patience and kindness, incredible skill with the machines and tools, and the wisdom ("I don't want to break a tap") to sequence the work to maximize chances of ending the day happily. If you Google him, the results are a little thin, but he pops up in the acknowledgments of many dissertations (including mine). When I came through, Helmut was semi-retired and ran the student shop; he retired fully toward the end of my Ph.D., sometime in 2012-2014. Decades earlier, he was a full-time machinist of scientific equipment. Scientists would ask the central shop for Helmut's work by name, accepting significant delays in doing so. Scientists being an intense, competitive, and impatient bunch, that says a lot. I didn't get to learn how to thread from Helmut. I'd love some wide shots showing what you're doing with the lathe when making those threading cuts. Thanks for posting.

[@petewolbert4566]

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[@petewolbert4566]

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[@charleshettrick2408]

I have stumbled across this thread several times on old machines. Very fortunately my father picked a set of Whitworth tap & dies from the scrap when he was a kid, so they are approaching 100 years. Not a perfect fit, worn and chipped, but close enough to refresh threads and make serviceable again. Considering the lack of tolerance control of tap/die and part its amazing they work at all. Biggest problem is finding the set because its only needed once a decade. Tends to get misplaced

[@july8xx]

Adam Savage made a video about putting little used tools and parts in storage, his main point was to put it in a place where you would look for it, not just find a place where it will fit. I also have made a list on my computer, “where I hid tools and parts”.

[@Blazer02LS]

I have done similar things with automotive specialty tools. I have more than a few that have been used once and then stored. Same with oddball parts.

[@ramosel]

I’m not sure you should call this a compromise. I believe you settled on a prudent update. Wise choice Mr. Rucker!

[@rogerdeane3608]

This OLD Tony has a good video on gears with all the questions answered. 5T-M2 Let This Be A Lesson To Ya!

[@Stefan_Boerjesson]

Thanks for yet one more fascinating video about the New Haven Metall planner. Normally a "maraton serie" like this would be booring to watch but due to the variation in Your videos every planer video is wellcome, like little Christmas present.

[@elsdp-4560]

THANK YOU...for sharing. Enjoyed.

[@CHICOB4261]

Mr. Rucker, I had a thought while I watched your video, why do I (and apparently so many others) enjoy your videos so much? I realized, for myself at least, it is the sense of calm orderliness that you bring to all of us through your videos! In a very disorderly world your precision and love of teaching is refreshing. Thank you for sharing your skills with me.

[@kensherwin4544]

"That's as far as I can put the stock in" said Keith more than once. That means it's time for another lathe that's bigger. After all, if you've already needed it four times. you'll need it again.

[@MF175mp]

He has a bigger lathe but it's yet to be restored

[@andyZ3500s]

Don't put any ideas in his head.

[@washoecreative595]

I'm in the firearms business and there are a number of historic firearms-specific threads we use, such as #6-48 (for Remington optics rails) and #8-40 (Mossberg and (interestingly) Benelli, or at least Benelli USA). The fasteners have to be custom made, so when customers call about tapping threads, I suggest they just go with the closest standard instead of the weird historic thread, so they can find a tap more easily and also buy fasteners from McMaster-Carr. It's hard to describe what makes your videos so compelling. The other night my partner and I spent a couple hours watching you dismantle the stoker engine. She loves your soft Georgia accent. The lack of profanity is awe-inspiring (I light up the entire neighborhood when I'm working on my car).

[@ronalddavis]

the standard scope base threads are 6-48 by just about all manufacturers and taps are not hard to find. midway,brownells and .williams gunsight company to name a few. 6-48 screws are not custom made and are available from these same companies along with the 8-40 and the taps

[@JoshHuntRocks]

This must be satisfying to have the ability to make your own parts like this.

[@stefinatrix3426]

Right? I miss having access to a lathe.

[@bryansprojects3570]

I have never added a comment to a video before. I started watching videos to learn how to make repairs at work, between you and Adam Booth I feel like I can make any repair now. I have thread M30x1 left hand even in a blind hole. It inspired me to make my own channel.

[@johnsherborne3245]

that's a mighty fine casting. Imagine making the core and mounds for it!

[@jimmurphy6095]

I love that 4 jaw chuck. Very cool.

[@ritchiechristopher5603]

good skills Kieth - just love machining metal !

[@danielcobbins9050]

I have an old machine shop book which has several charts in the back of the book. One of these has standard diameter and threads per inch. On certain sizes, there are double asterisks, meaning that particular size is obsolete. New thread sizes and standards were created in World War II between the US and the UK, in order to speed production, and be able to interchange parts on critical equipment.

[@littleworkshopofhorrors2395]

In UK they even reduced the nut and bolt head sizes by one to save metal, but still didn't unify them .

[@july8xx]

@@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 Thanks for the that information, I always noticed when working on pre war machinery that the nuts were one wrench size larger than the post war machinery but never realized why.

[@littleworkshopofhorrors2395]

@@july8xx I'm full of useless information and am happy to pass it on.😀 Look up how we got EN numbering for steels, and its not E for european.😉

[@MF175mp]

Here we see again what a thin carbide insert parting blade can do: parting dry with like 6" stickout on that thin stock and no problem.

[@chrisankers7868]

you make it look so easy

[@lukemeisenbach1964]

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many.

[@aserta]

Imagine that there was once a time, when each master (head engineer of a shop) would have their own "trade thread" essentially, a customer tie down, to their business. I hit on that kind of stuff whenever i buy antique steam engines from Germany or Britain. My god, there's many thread pitches, sizes, crowns, suffice it to say that if i didn't have a lathe, i'd be in the cherry.

[@lukemeisenbach1964]

@@aserta Restoring anything to running order with a boiler built prior to ASME standards is exciting.

[@johnsherborne3245]

I have a 1960 British motorbike. It has six different thread standards used. The fun bit is I can usually tell which is which before I pick up the thread gauge, but it took a while!

[@lukemeisenbach1964]

@@johnsherborne3245 That and British cars used different thread pitches so you couldn't go to your friendly BMC dealer for fasteners for your BSA. I got rid of my Whitworth wrenches years ago but probably should have kept them and hung them on the wall.

[@silasmarner7586]

@@johnsherborne3245 I've got seven. I'm there with ya bro'!

[@Elvis-lw7vy]

Neat, I just picked up a craftsman 109 lathe. I’m going to restore. New to machining

[@LittleRestraint]

After seeing you parting off with that much stick-out and at that speed I am convinced you are a wizard.

[@zHxIxPxPxIxEz]

Quality machine tools in good working order kick so much ass compaired yo what most of us have access to.

[@garthbutton699]

Enjoying your channel thanks for allowing us to look over your shoulder😁

[@MikeBaxterABC]

I thought I'd mention a couple other odd ball threads, I didn;t see mentioned :) ... a LOT of older Browne and Sharpe machinery have "Brown and Sharpe Standard" threads on it, we used to drill them out and retap where we could ... but on some stuff like spindle collars etc you could not. Also I've used taps and dies repairing machinery that were "Constand Pitch Series" ... as far as I know there were several CPS threads, ... the set looks weird from 1/8" up to 1" ALL the same thread pitch .. so they look too course on the small taps and way to fine on the big ones.

[@ramsay19481]

I made T nuts and flange nuts for my Kearney and Trecker machines and hardened them all in Kasenit....Makes them much more durable..Great job Keith! Cheers; Mike in Louisiana (Ramsay 1)

[@gordonmitchell6129]

Thanks Keith Always interested in the speed and feed rates. Seems that the speed is faster than I am comfortable at,

[@carloscordero4204]

Nice really enjoy!One step closer . It's going to be great way better then new!! Thanks Keith !!!!

[@dlfabrications]

nice work

[@paulterhaar4218]

Keith Rucker: one video on two bolts and two nuts from scratch. Adam Booth: half video for the oil he uses, half video of his shop and his dads tools, four video's on two bolts and two nuts from scratch.

[@kornellred]

Keith Rucker - 168,000 subscribers Adam Booth - 426,000 subscribers...both men are master craftsmen....with decidedly different styles of presentation.

[@paulterhaar4218]

@@kornellred uhm al subscribers are from a time that Adam only posted videos from the machining. Last one and a half year Adam only speaks about his dads tools and how good his tools are. Wat brand the tools are etc...

[@CathyInBlue]

Wondering if there's anything to be done about that visible rust down in the T slot, Keith. Maybe just an overnight bath in evaporust, followed by a nice coat of machine oil, before reinstallation on the cross member.

[@TheFreshmanWIT]

Aww, I was hoping you were going to single-point the ID of the nut. I've never internal single-pointed something that small, so I was curious to see how it was done :)

[@noelhenderson700]

The problem is the bar used has to be small enough to allow the tool to be retracted out of the thread to return to the start of the thread. This makes for a pretty thin bar and on a longer thread this will result in a lot of tool deflection. It can be done but it takes a long time both because a very light cut is needed and you would still have to make a lot of spring passes to clean up the thread.

[@TheFreshmanWIT]

@@noelhenderson700 yep, part of why I wanted to see it :). I've done similar threads (though, 11/16 isn't THAT small...) But only closer to an inch. Never been brave enough to go lower than 3/4.

[@whirlpool851]

Great! I always enjoy your videos

[@williamharris1302]

Single point the nut I'm doing that right now on a project of my own.

[@arnhemseptember2009]

Nice job again!

[@morelenmir]

I am surprised you find that thread so strange Keith! It sounds like a fairly standard, or at least not especially oddball Whitworth/BSP thread.

[@tropifiori]

I did not realize that a tap could pull the entire head stock like that- cool. Frank

[@bulletproofpepper2]

Thanks for sharing!!! Great to know something isn’t right and knowing how to fix it. like the way half of all the bolt on my services unit are metric and the frame and bracket bolts are standard, With a few over size torques head bolts thrown in for good measure.

[@bcbloc02]

Getting close to making chips!

[@aserta]

Yeah, but the planer is fighting Keith. Like a big woolly mammoth, half fallen into a pool of pitch, unwilling to get out.

[@bones357]

I'll just say it, those are some nice nuts.👍

[@florianf4257]

Hey Keith, maybe the strange groove close the head was made to hold/clamp the head in a fixture to turn the radius on the second shoulder. Maybe mounting multiple bolts excentrically on a face plate on the late and turn those radii.

[@lwilton]

I think more likely it was to give dirt and chips a place to go without causing the bolt to jam in the slot when you tried to rotate the head.

[@dtoad48]

take a piece of sand paper and glue it to the head of the old bolt and sand that flash rust off.

[@incubatork]

43/64 is almost bang on 17mm a popular metric size nut. Not so sure about the thread though ill have a look at a 17mm bolt and see what standard thread they have.

[@larryvergon6740]

RE: Non standard threads. In the early 70's I went to work as a contractor for National Cash Register. There was a veteran of NCR in the engineering department where I worked and I don't remember how it came up, but he told me that NCR had used their own set of screw thread standards in non 'standard sizes' and nothing they used was available from anyone but NCR until they went with the standard inch system sometime in the mid 20th century. Before they decentralized in the late 60's, they produced all their own parts, buying only the raw materials needed to produce all the parts and pieces used to build their machines. The philosophy was to keep anyone but a NCR technician from working on their cash registers. If a screw or nut was lost, none were available from anyone but their friendly NCR tech.

[@NoelBarlau]

Lots of great operations in here, thanks for sharing. I've got to get one of those 4-jaw scroll chucks, it'd be a real time saver!

[@robertoswalt319]

I picked up a 4 inch one that was mounted to a 6 inch back plate at an estate sale some time back. I put it in my regular chuck and it saves a lot of hassle in working with small square stuff

[@thecatsupdog]

43/64 10 or fight, baby!

[@JakeSpeed1000]

Great video

[@michaeldewalt8786]

When you get the chance,it would be nice to see how to make a odd size tap. Thanks in advance. Keep up the great work and videos.

[@july8xx]

This Old Tony has a good video on making a tap, also see Clickspring.

[@donsundberg5730]

I think this would have been a good opportunity for one of Keith's KZbin friends with a CNC mill to demonstrate thread milling on the nut. Then the thread would not have been a big deal. They would have had to develop the specification limits for the thread diameters but that would have been pretty straight forward.

[@kalusovsky]

I'm so glad that I live in metric country! These oddball fraction sizes doesn't make any sense to me.

[@williamdodd8660]

It’s traditional in English to express numbers smaller than one (typically) as halves, halves of halves (quarters), halves of halves of halves (eighths), etc., which is why there are so many of these sizes used.

[@stephenpeterson7479]

Oh Oh, looks like you've been using the Universal Thumb Finder.

[@mickestahl6178]

Is there anything Keith can't do in his shop??? Love all your super instructional videos. Would love to have a lathe and a mill, it was 30 years since I used a mill and a planer, lathe I have had a small one but I had to sell due to lack of space.

[@KG-yn9qi]

Think maybe the small square fits in the slot, to keep the bolt from turning. The larger square is just the head. So, if for not the small square corners of the head would chew up the slot. The head rides in, as the bolt try to turn !

[@chrisretusn]

Yee haa! Another exciting episode of Metal Planer Restoration.

[@bobengelhardt856]

It is so refreshing to see "not that critical" dimensions being treated non-critically. E.g., the lengths of the different sections that were measured with a scale or eye balled and sharpied. There is one KZbinr who machines not-that-critical dimensions to 0.001. It's inefficient & doesn't make sense, but he can't help himself, I suppose.

[@rick_.]

Probably 11/16" bolt milled slightly undersize for clearance in the nut.

[@2tana22]

That was cool

[@organbuilder272]

Hi Keith - How about making 3 while you are at it. That would give a spare for the machine in case, as in the past, someone looses or breaks one of the bolts? Whatever - You'll do the best job you can, no doubt. Follow oyu to see every way you approach the problem and come up with a great solution.

[@Rum1981]

M17x1 or M17x1.25? Would be available (at least here in europe).

[@unclebobsbees4899]

Could be a Manufacturer specific thread like a Holtzapffel. Which was either 50° or 60° pitch, depending on diameter. And standardized on 10 TPI for leadscrew around 1820. Holtzapffel 5/8" thread is listed as 60°, sharp corners, 13.09 TPI. 😂 MUCH LOVE FOR STANDARDIZATION!

[@WilliamTMusil]

Hiya Keith

[@codohundo]

I wonder what a CNC shop, or youtuber, would charge you for a threadmilled nut for those original bolts, should be a pretty quick and easy part. For the metric guys, (myself included) even if it is M17x2.5 there is no (commonly available) standard tap for that so we're back to the same problem.

[@dscott1524]

43/64 inches turns out to be 17.06mm. there is a 17x1mm standard size thread. wouldn't be easier to simply use the metric thread, make the bolt, tap the nut and be done with it? looks like the planer mfg used a metric bolt.

[@Bobbywolf64]

Yea I bet the metric system was super popular in the late 1800's in north america... lol

[@ElmerJFudd-oi9kj]

Hi Keith, that looks like a painful little wound on your left thumbnail, I hope it stays clean. All the best and thanks for shareing.

[@paulcooper2897]

Thanks for sharing. Just a question ... was it me or is your lathe developing a grinding noise when you threw it into reverse to back the tap all the way out?

[@ivansemanco6976]

Maybe you can contact manufacturer technical department thru facebook about correct thread size... 😉 Thanks for very good video.

[@aserta]

More than likely you've tried it, but how does an M17/2.5 compare to the original, just out of curiosity.

[@mnoxman]

I know it would not be "hysterically accurate" (pun intended) but what is the modulus to not choose to make a set of nuts and bolts that would work that use modern standards? Metric or USCU .

[@shawnhuk]

What was the steel stock you used, Keith? It cut real nice. Same with the threading insert?

[@Dudleymiddleton]

18:26 "Mark on here" said with sharpie cap in mouth!

[@spareparts007]

Why not just use M17 x 2.5? More or less exactly the old bolt size and certainly M17 x 2mm is readily available as a tap and die size, although I guess possibly not in the USA..

[@jamesdcuk]

Smashing video! I'm sure this has been said a thousand times... but I can't help thinking metric measurements would make life simpler for this kind of problem!

[@pjslauta4478]

Keith, Why wouldn't you cut to the length of two, drill and tap, then part them off and finish machining? Seems like less work, so I'm sure there's a reason.

[@Blazer02LS]

Taps not long enough to go through two at the same time.

[@larrysperling8801]

good video. you look like quick draw magraw on those half nuts. i'm impressed with the performance of your cutoff tool. i have a similar tool (2nd one from bangood) that would have never made it through an interrupted cut .i have gone back to my hss for most operations. can anyone recommend a reliable insert cutoff tool that won't break the bank?

[@MF175mp]

I've used spb332 blade and sp300 inserts off aliexpress. Still on my first blade. There is a large variety of different inserts available for different materials and other factors for the parting tools, I recommend contacting the chinese seller and telling your needs and see if they can recommend a good insert for your needs. Some of the sellers are specialized in tools and they might be able to do that.

[@stevesus3295]

Heat treat the parts?

[@kimber1958]

Good Day to you !

[@larrywall1642]

Keith, do you ever use ceramic cutters. I used them for many years cutting D2 tool steel.

[@Wobblybob2004]

The US signed the Treaty of the Metre in 1875 So could New Haven have been at the cutting edge? M17*2.5 maybe?

[@markoantesic4362]

Was just about to write that XD

[@gemini1965]

it is just a M18 x2.5. its a used, abused bolt. ;)

[@stumccabe]

Agreed, that was my first thought too. 17mm x 2.5 mm is almost perfectly 43/64" 10tpi. although not a standard metric size as far as I know.

[@Phantomthecat]

Yeah, sounds like 17 x 2.5mm

[@markoantesic4362]

@@stumccabe Jea but M17 still sounds better then 43/64", but I might be biased because I'm form EU :P

[@kraklakvakve]

Isn't it M17x2.5? :-)

[@stuarthardy4626]

Yep. You got it 43/64 is 17.06 mm makes you think don’t it

[@unclebobsbees4899]

In the US in 1890? Doubtful

[@xenonram]

@@stuarthardy4626 notice the wink at the end of the op. He knows there were no metric threads coming out of the U.S. in the 19th century.

[@robertoswalt319]

I was thinking it was an undersized 11/16 bolt

[@aserta]

@@unclebobsbees4899 Look up Treaty of the Metre. You'll be surprised who signed it in 1878. :)

[@chrisarmstrong8198]

The problem with a 4-jaw self-centering chuck is that, unless the work piece is perfectly square in cross-section, two of the jaws will not be gripping it properly. This doesn't happen with a 3-jaw chuck.

[@bchrisl1491]

43/63” is 17.065mm. .1” is 2.54mm so is it possible the bolt is metric?

[@larryshaw6517]

Do you think that was a proprietary part so you had to order replacements from the manufacturer?

[@katelights]

they werent that kind of bastards back then. there just wasn't really such a thing as standardised threads.

[@tomp538]

I slapped the back of my head, as the shop teacher would have done, had he seen me with my hand near a spinning part! I was thinking... this machine aint going to know how to act with its 21 century tolerances.

[@Smallathe]

Chuck comment - I bought my tiny lathe a 2" OD 4 jaw self centering chuck - after I saw a video on myfordboy channel. I LOVE it... works wonderfully. It works well holding taps on the square bottom (on a tiny lathe the chucks can't grip the tap good enough and there is simply not enough space to manually feed it with a tap guide). The chuck also works well not only square stock but also with rectangular and even hex stock. Link to myfordboy video - just incase you are interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqGpg55jat2Xabc Thanks for sharing Keith - fascinating project!

[@hakanboqvist]

threads might be whitworth, it's been used since 1841.

[@paulcopeland9035]

Nope. The time frame is correct, but these are "house specials", not British Whitworth.

[@cfmcguire]

Sounds like it's time for Clough42's digital feed screw! 😊

[@phlodel]

Does the 4 jaw scroll chuck work with round work also?

[@florianf4257]

Yes, off course, only hex stock would be a bit difficult ;)

[@matthewhelton1725]

Surprisingly Hex stock in a 4 jaw scroll chuck is do-able... Check out Myfordboy "Further Adventures with a 4 Jaw Chuck"

[@BedsitBob]

On the subject of weird threads, I wonder why 13 TPI won out over 12 TPI?

[@MartinE63]

BedsitBob It didn’t, at least in the rest of the world / British empire that used imperial threads 😀 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

[@danandyong6653]

Maybe should've kept the bar stock connected to use as clamping stability for milling the smaller square shoulder down, then part off

[@paulcopeland9035]

Next time, when you make "your" 1890 planer parts, you can video and show us your "correct" way.

[@TheMetalButcher]

@@paulcopeland9035 Fucking hell, it was just a suggestion. And a good one.

[@siggyincr7447]

Just thought I'd share a little gem with those interested in metal planers. Here's a link to a 50's technical film about the shapers made by a German manufacturer. kzbin.info/www/bejne/foXLhJmAmNeeY8k It's in German, but even if you don't undrestand the narration it's still really interesting. The machines in the video pretty much represent the end of the era of metal planers and towards the end they show attachemnts for milling and even grinding on the shaper. Probably some of the most advanced shapers produced before they became outdated.

[@NoLandMandi]

43/64th is as alien as 1/8 or 1/4 ... never understood what is the benefit of imperial someone once tried to explain it to me why it's more intuitive for people at least in the US, yet to learn the reason.

[@jimhunt5259]

Can't a nut be single point threaded with a boring bar?

[@princessharold]

It can, and I was wondering why he's not doing that, too.

[@shadowdog500]

It can, but why do it that way if you can just run a tap through it. An old machinist told me that single point threading is for oddball thread sizes. If it is a standard thread you use a tap or die.

[@jimhunt5259]

Shadowdog500 why not restore to builders spec.

[@princessharold]

@@shadowdog500 That's exactly the point, he had an oddball thread and he wasn't going to buy or make a tap for it. I'm surprised that he didn't decide to single-point the nut instead to keep the thread size the same as what was originally on the machine.

[@thomasutley]

Yes. However, the threading/boring bar that will fit into the ID of those nuts would be very slender to reach through the full length of those nuts. Not a trivial internal threading job for sure.

[@osgeld]

43/64th is 17mm

[@phillipsvanderwesthuizen800]

Diameter close to 17mm but standard M17 is 1.5mm pitch so not that either. :-)

[@florianf4257]

Nowadays there is no standard M17, but standard M18 would be 2,5mm pitch, M16 would bi 2,0mm, so M17x2,5 seems reasonable. But Anyways, that are todays standards, around 1880 there were no universal standard metric threads.

[@phillipsvanderwesthuizen800]

@@florianf4257 You are correct, but M17 x 1 mm and M17 x 2mm taps /die are reasonably readily available (at least in a metric country :-) ). But obviously it is easier to cut imperial threads on an imperial lathe (i also have one). Love watching your channel. We have a machining museum close to us, actually a metal engineering workshop, dating to the early 1900's. Part of it worked up to about 1980 odd, Now a number of enthusiasts are slowly restoring it. Still one motor with lots of overhead shafts/belts driving the machines.

[@rmr5740]

Tightening all 3 positions on the chuck usually stops taps and drills slipping.

[@liquidsonly]

Nope. How exactly would that work? Its just driving a nut effectively, It doesn't matter at all what side you approach it from.

[@markowen7164]

You can turn Sauer stock in a 3 jour Chuck. M

[@tobyw9573]

Too bad you could not make that special bolt from two pieces; a stud threaded on both ends with the rectangular part that slides in the track locktited in place.

[@paulcopeland9035]

It's not "too bad". There was no reason to.

[@markowen7164]

Nice nuts. M

[@dlfabrications]

isn't 43/64 th 17mm

[@deanplank2577]

label and save the original bolt/nut, you never know when it may be handy 100 yrs from now.