Michael Lustgarten PhD, 15th Place, Rejuvenation Olympics (Hosted By

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Timestamps 0:00 Conquer Aging Or Die Trying-Semantics (Preface) 3:19 Published Studies vs An Individualized Approach 5:19 Introduction 9:10 The Approach: F Around, Find Out, Or More Strict? 16:00 Coding The Approach Into An App 17:30 Detailing the Correlations-Based Approach 20:15 Optimizing All Biomarkers, Not Just A Few 22:40 Homocysteine, NAD, Niacin 26:15 Does The Published Literature Translate At The Individual Level? 28:30 Whole Foods Vs Supplements 34:45 Is Someone Healthier Just because They Supplement? 39:23 Epigenetic Tests vs Standard Blood Chemistry Biomarkers 47:40 The Testing Hierarchy 51:15 #15 On The Rejuvenation Olympics Leaderboard, Symphony Age 53:30 Epigenetic Predictions vs Actual Measurement 56:10 Suggestions For Improving The Rejuvenation Olympics Leaderboard 58:44 First Iteration Of The Leaderboard vs The Second 1:01:25 Secret Sauce 1:03:30 Geek Stereotype 1:05:50 Backstory 1:08:05 Tribes, Cyber vs IRL 1:10:50 Spiritual or Religious? 1:14:50 Day In The Life 1:17:42 Vices 1:22:16 Current Diet 1:25:55 Supplements 1:27:55 Exercise Approach 1:38:34 Sleep Approach 1:41:40 The Secret Sauce Is Tracking Data 1:44:40 Posting Without Responding To Comments 1:47:40 Future Vision 1:49:10 What Do People Disagree With Me About? 1:53:15 What Value Can I Offer To Others And Vice Versa?

[@adamd9418]

Opens KZbin to find nearly two hours with Michael Lustgarten... it's a good day!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @adamd9418!

[@barrie888]

Youur detailed and rigourous scientific approach is unique across all the different longevity sites i have visited.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Definitely, @barrie888, that's the secret sauce Whether I can utilize that approach into maximizing longevity, we'll see...

[@pursuingtruth13]

Dude won over my heart in a single interview - fan for life

[@leonniceday6807]

Thank you for the personal perspective / sharing your private life aspects. That is very motivating. Also revealing is to what high extent some of us share similar, or relatable, ways of thinking.

[@nopara73]

Thanks Mike, looking forward to have you back, maybe in a panel conversation with other longevity athletes!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Definitely Adam, anytime!

[@haikustar9380]

Thank you so much Michael for sharing so much great data on your channel and website, it's an unbelievable help!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @haikustar9380. On my end it looks like you're not subscribed...if you are, apologies, but if not, subscribe!

[@auricauric8150]

Passion shines through the interview. I suspect I know why he's doing Rapa next to "treat" candida when diflucan is available. None the less interested in seeing the effects, curious on Rapa dose you'll be using. Off label, people take rapa intermittently, but mice eat it in their chow daily. Hope to see how this one intervention affects the whole system.

[@Maple597]

Amazing interview!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @Maple597!

[@nopara73]

Happy you liked it

[@olyav5819]

Cannot wait for your app!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks Olya, we're hustling to get it done!

[@Kingramze]

Fascinating video. I do wonder how one teases out not only correlations, but various interactions between supplements - both synergistic and suppressive effects. There's so many variables - concentration, co-factors, inhibitors, etc. It'd be easy to take something that appears to have no correlation unless you're also taking a co-factor or co-precursor for some molecule or enzyme to make a molecule. Be fascinating to see how you remove the noise and isolate beneficial supplements and verify if a group of supplements only work well together for a biomarker and then sus out which are essential for the effect and which are extraneous.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

It takes a while to tease out correlations. For example, for a given biomarker, there might be 10 foods or nutrients that are significantly correlated. I then try to follow them all until the next test-the "real" correlations will either stay the same or strengthen, whereas the false positive correlations will weaken. But, it takes many tests using this approach to get closer to the n=1 prescription for optimizing more biomarkers than not.

[@nopara73]

Can't this be more dynamic, more akin to real life? Let's assume a chaotic person, not an orderly one. Can an algorithm not yield reliable results?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@nopara73 Definitely, working on it!

[@carm4646]

Good discussion. What studies talk about Betaine HCL and digestive enzymes and kidney health? Can't find studies about this connection or possible mechanisms. Maybe you referred to correlations you saw in your data. Thanks.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @carm4646, it's not my data, kidney function and uremic metabolites are generally good Some studies show a decrease for gastric acid and pepsin output during aging (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8612992/), but others don't...

[@jimtraister2587]

Was hoping at the 1 hr 51 mark he was going to let you answer the question about the Med Diet. As usual, curious about your insight/perspective. Thanks for everything you share!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @jimtraister2587, the published version of the Medi Diet is better than the standard Western diet, but adherence generally isn't good. For example, in this paper, there were no between-group differences for the Medi Diet as the intervention (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32066625/), but when evaluated based on adherence, improvements to health-related measures were identified.

[@jimtraister2587]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Thank you for taking the time to share the above and the link. Very kind!

[@jamesgilmore8192]

For OMICmage, Figure 5A of the OMICmage paper shows there isn't much overlap in CpG sites with the other clocks. So there is value from that perspective. Whether changes are correlated between the different clocks is another question. Have you run an analysis on how the clocks are correlated with one another in your current data? As for SymphonyAge that is based on SystemsAge, which has a sound methodology, and clearly ranks the best for organ specific ages, although isn't necessarily the best for all cause mortality.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Ah, but I have venipuncture data on the same day as OMICAge measurement, and all of the clinical chemistry measures (which I trust, venipuncture is the gold standard relative to finger-prick) are significantly different from those used in OMIC Age. SystemsAge could be good, but my 1st pass at the preprint was that they derived it based on standard chemistry markers, i.e. "kidney age" based on creatinine, Cystatin C, others. Is the epigenetic prediction of standard chemistry biomarkers a better approach than simply measuring the clinical chemistry biomarkers? I'm not sure... It's the same story for the epigenetic "fitness age" prediction-I place more value on the actual fitness measure.

[@jamesgilmore8192]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Yes, actual measurements are far better. Are you saying the venipuncture biomarkers don't equal the epigenetic biomarker proxies that are reported?... The epigenetic biomarker proxies in OMICmage only correlate at 0.2

[@33Crazydude]

The big question is: Is there still hope for longevity science after prominent figures like David Sinclair have been exposed? Despite the misleading claims of some scientists, I believe we shouldn't abandon the quest to better understand aging and potentially discover effective ways to slow or even reverse it. This pursuit isn't immoral-in fact, it’s a noble endeavor. However, it's disheartening when influential scientists, such as those from Harvard, betray the hope that so many of us secretly hold.

[@jamesgilmore8192]

There are many scientists doing good work in the longevity space. Try to identify the reputable people and look at their research. The core issue is much of the science isn't ready to be applied directly yet. The pathway work in particular (NAD etc) is still in the early stages of scientific maturity.

[@leonniceday6807]

How has D. Sinclair been exposed?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

How does this relate to the video?

[@SAOSIN987]

Very excited to see your rapamycin results. I’ve had it in my cover while I think about all the factors. If you’re going to go the prescription route why not try acarbose first for deal with candida. Acarbose IMO is probably the no brainer intervention for a lot of negative biomarkers over rapa in humans. The viral load/lifetime difference of humans makes me think acarbose > for life/health span in humans.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I don't have issues with blood glucose or HbA1c, or SCFA production, which would be reasons I would supplement with acarbose I didn't know that acarbose could be antifungal against Candida, though-are there head-to-head data vs rapamycin?

[@SAOSIN987]

​@@conqueragingordietrying123 I'm just thinking about all the off-target effects of rapa, should be interesting. For me personally HbA1c is always a target for improvement with the only lower limit being my average glucose. Spikes do play a role I think.

[@whatthefunction9140]

You're my kind of people. You talk just like me. Info seeker, info dumper

[@gordangrebovic4128]

Mike, any idea when the tracking app will be ready? Thanks

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @gordangrebovic4128, we're hustling to get it done asap! It will be sooner, not later, but we also want to get it right. Once I'm using it regularly to run the correlations, I'll promote it here...

[@gordangrebovic4128]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Great, thanks!

[@nopara73]

Grug say prototype early in software making, especially if many big brains

[@justsaying7065]

Hi Mike, Is your daughter following in your footsteps in terms of diet, exercise, etc.?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @justsaying7065, that's not her current passion (which is ok!), but I've done my best to instill good habits nonetheless

[@whatthefunction9140]

So complicated. I'm convinced we need to focus on master keys to reset the clock if possible 😢

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I'm trying to make it less complicated... Definitely, but the rejuvenation field may not be ready for years. This is the live long enough to live forever approach

[@arihaviv8510]

I think the solution will be even more complicated than this. I don't think all the problems in life can be solved by taking a single pill

[@Kingramze]

Your story about homocysteine levels and correlation with mushrooms is fascinating, but I had a thought. While chronic elevated homocysteine levels are absolutely correlated with inflammation, and therefore "bad," what if you've actually stumbled upon something that is ramping up your metabolism at one stage of the Methionine / Homocysteine cycle, which is partly good, and you're just missing methyl donors or enough B12 to complete the cycle or enough B6 to clear the homocysteine as cysteine. If we're dealing with cycles and most of these reactions are bi-directional and dependent on concentration, I'm thinking something in your mushrooms is either accelerating the first stage of the cycle OR inhibiting the later stages of the cycle. If it's a higher concentration of inputs or some catalyst that's boosting the first stage(s), then it's potentially a really good thing IF you can find a way to also boost the other half of recycling it (or the breakdown path) so you don't get the homocysteine build-up. I mean, I don't know if that's even possible as the cells try for homeostasis through lots of pathways. But, it just struck me that it's not as simple as "bad marker go up, therefore the inputs are always bad" but it's not just concentrations of testing inputs that matter. When you've got a cycle, if any stage of that cycle is sped up, but not the whole cycle, you're going to get a build-up of outputs at a certain stage, and too much of anything is a bad thing. But, it's interesting (assuming something in mushrooms isn't inhibiting methylation or some enzyme or something) that you might have found something that's part of a solution that only seems bad because it's a partial treatment that ends with an undesired elevated output at a stage when if coupled with some other elevated enzyme, betaine, or co-factor like B vitamins might clear that undesired product and speed up the cycle to increase overall metabolism and boost cellular health.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @Kingramze, that's a tricky scenario-homocysteine increases during aging, with higher levels associated with an increased all-cause mortality risk. So I'm playing the odds, and aiming for lower values.

[@Kingramze]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Oh, I agree - and I'd do the same if it were me. I'm just trying to poke holes in our "common sense" reasoning reasoning to think a bit outside the box. In terms of cycles and feedback loops, it's entirely possible that an incomplete or imbalanced treatment would yield undesirable results, but coupled with the right ratio of other inputs might lead to a breakthrough in accelerating metabolism. One possibility is that you're producing more homocysteine with increased intake of mushrooms. That would be fascinating and helpful if you could find a way to clear it at the new rate of production. Another, possibly more likely scenario is there's an inhibitor in those mushrooms that's preventing the normal clearance of homocysteine and it's just not noticeable until you get a high enough concentration of it. That would also be fascinating to know - because if true, it could lead to a better understanding of what foods to avoid that might prevent normal homocysteine clearance or even a new class of drugs to bind to substances that inhibit homocysteine clearance and de-activating them. Can you imagine the multi-million dollar industry that'd pop up if someone discovered a drug that'd lower the #1 factor correlated with aging and heart disease? If that experiment with mushrooms is repeatable, something might be hidden in there that could lead to that.

[@whatthefunction9140]

How about sitting? Do you have a walking or standing desk?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Nope, no walking or standing desk

[@arihaviv8510]

There are real bio hackers who understand what they are doing and then there are the bio "script kiddies"

[@nopara73]

grug no able see complexity demon, but grug sense presence in code base

[@iaml.4290]

Have you thought of reaching out to the individuals above you in the Rejuvenation Olympics in order to understand what they are doing? Definitely some impressive results towards the top, although im not sure if it would be possible if their information is private

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@nopara73 has videos for people atop the list... Dave Pascoe and I will chat in 2 weeks...

[@vedransimic86]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Oh wauw, this will be BIG. I am thrilled.

[@jontpt]

Time restricted eating, cutting carbs, plenty of protein and low-carb vegetables, enough sleep including naps, and exercise, both cardio and resistance. Everything else is gravy

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

That's a great approach, but prefer a bit more specificity!

[@jontpt]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I'll leave the specificity to you, doc, haha

[@tatersquad2000]

Most normies including myself don't have the motivation, money, or time to make such disciplined measurements and track variables. Given this, I have to make a calculated judgement. Do I either do nothing, or do what has shown some promise? Exercise improves many biomarkers for most population groups, but if I'm not tracking my specifics, it is just guesswork that it will do the same for me and yet I still place the bet. The same for supplements/diet. I take a variety of things hoping that in aggregate, they will have a net positive effect on my health, even knowing individual components of my regime may be harmful. In other words, I think it's worth giving grandma the fish oil and d3 :)

[@23952AAB]

Health is a thing we can continue improving our methodology. I agree that there is a good probability that fish oil and D3 will do good for the grandma, but let me tell you that in the last 6 months I took 2000 IU of D3 daily and recently I started doing more blood tests. I did not want to spend money testing on D3 because I was already supplementing, so I only wanted to test other stuff that I thought I had to work more on, but it happened that I saw that my insurance would cover testing for vit D, so why not? I got shocked that it was low. So, some possibilities: bad brand, absorption issues, higher dose requirement for my body, idk. So I increased my dose and switched to a different brand, and I intend to retest it later.

[@nuovoaccount998]

@@23952AAB what insurance do you have?

[@CharlesOffdensen]

1:05 well, I know about 7 billion people that haven't died.

[@LVArturs]

Iirc, the current population is already significantly above 8 billion.

[@LVArturs]

1:20:00 I see some spicy stuff seems to have been cut in this section :D

[@nopara73]

some things are better not said :D

[@LVArturs]

1:20:28 That just does not compute, since you look like a professional Johnny Sins impersonator.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

It's the honest truth-ha, in that way, I wish to be as successful as Johnny Sins!

[@nopara73]

​@@conqueragingordietrying123 It's a topic most are afraid to go into but the fix seems to be trivial. You're not fat and handsome. Thus to improve your desirability stats you either need to grow some hair or beard. One of it would guarantee an upgrade on how women would look at you that is comparable to a fat guy losing weight.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@nopara73 I don't think external features are an issue-it's finding a similar high achiever, who's also fit, strongly agnostic, and local That's a small minority of women, or at least within my current social circle

[@nopara73]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 well that escalated quickly😄

[@arihaviv8510]

Joining a gym for some of your workouts every week may be a way to find like minded people.

[@t2smith]

If you are doing 90 minutes twice a week, why not 45 minutes 4 days a week or 30 minutes 6 days a week. My recovery for a 30 to 45 min workout is usually less than 24 hours. If I did 90 minutes it would probably be 72 hours depending on how high I got my heart rate.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I currently have to balance workout recovery around the in-person work schedule. The 2-day/week approach does that, for now, but I'm open to altering the approach in the future.

[@rodolfo...]

How much rapamycin do you plan to take? Also, could you do a video about how to prevent age related decline of sleep quality.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @rodolfo..., 1mg/d for at least a week-I have a 12 day supply There are a couple of videos on the channel for melatonin and SWS% decreasing during aging (use the search bar)...

[@rodolfo...]

Just a short course then, let us know if you get any side effects. Where can I find a full list of your diet and maybe the reasoning behind each item?

[@whatthefunction9140]

Great interview. Do you have wife and kids?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

My 15yr old lives with me for 10 months out of the year, divorced

[@NicholasDunbar]

Both of you might be slightly on the spectrum. LoL. Long live the super nerds.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Ha, I'm probably to the far right side of that spectrum, it is what it is

[@reynolds753]

1:24:34 Parsely is in? I’m a little surprised, I thought the evidence for this was somewhat weak as a CD38 inhibitor? Would like to know more…

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Parsley has been in the approach for a few years-I'm not sure that it's helped NAD levels (which I've measured 20x since 2022), which are generally low with parsley and no NAD precursor supplementation.

[@reynolds753]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I was considering adding parsley to my blender shake, but I'm not so sure. Parsley is "medium" in oxalates but apparently raises urine ph (more alkaline), meaning less chance of kidney stones? There’s a 2016 review which looks at several in-vivo/vitro tests using parsley as a source of apigenin, but the results aren't compelling? (“Health functionality of apigenin: A review”). Have you found a good clinical study?

[@whatthefunction9140]

I thought beets were high in oxalate???

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yes, but they're also nitrate rich. Eating more calcium can offset their oxalate levels.

[@mrpig6742]

Don’t eat sugar. Bp goes down it. Is

[@pursuingtruth13]

Algorithm

[@scottk1525]

All this "Rejuvenation Olympics" BS is so silly.

[@nopara73]

It's silly until it's not

[@scottk1525]

@@nopara73 but currently, it's silly.

[@nopara73]

@@scottk1525 the fool is the precursor of the hero 😛

[@scottk1525]

@@nopara73 yeah we could really use a well-informed hero to explain to everybody how ridiculous these "biological age" leaderboards are (not to mention how ridiculous the "biological age" tests are in their own right.)

[@nuovoaccount998]

@@scottk1525 it's the best we have unless you have something more strong

[@KasKade7]

Bryan Johnson aspire to be like you? Seriously now. More like the other way around. With all due respect. He is monumentally more successful in pretty much everything he does. But we can learn from everyone.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

He means in terms of showing his data, what's under the hood

[@KasKade7]

He is the most tested man on earth. Spend millions on it. There is a ton of data he shared for free.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@KasKade7 I appreciate Bryan, no shade, but there are only singular data points for many biomarkers on the Blueprint website, not 50+ datapoints for each biomarker over a given period of time

[@KasKade7]

​@@conqueragingordietrying123 Well, for what it's worth. You did a great interview! But I did not like the host.

[@boossersgarage3239]

@@KasKade7 ur missing the point, ignorance is not a virtue

[@boossersgarage3239]

aging is an Olympic sport. IMO. not many agree with me though, they would rather melt into the earth. sad

[@nopara73]

Making anti-aging into a sport has the potential to produce surprising results.

[@arihaviv8510]

Lots of people were in "health and wellness" before longevity became a thing. They exercise, they eat a lot of veg...they aren't interested in being sick