Microphone vs Body Polarity

[@doougle]

I'm not out of polarity, I'm just going through a phase 😂

[@MrNicknayme]

@@doougle I’m not in love, so don’t forget it, It’s just a silly phase I’m going through

[@maxatorium]

Best comment

[@lukewestlake]

I was monitor engineer for Canadian sing/songwriter Tom Cochrane years ago. He was on IEMs and depending on which console we had, in or out of polarity "felt" better for him. Sometimes it was so drastic that he thought I was doing something crazy with his channel EQ, but would show him it was simply the polarity switch on his mic. Blew his mind. I ended up making a note of which setting to use for which console and it made it easy to keep him happy. I did the same with many other artists on IEMs and singers could hardly believe it.

[@lukewestlake]

You can of course test this before your artist shows up for soundcheck if you have the same packs/IEMs, but it was always fun to have the artist experience it for themselves so they could identify the feeling which helped them if another monitor engineer was working with them and hadn't thought to check polarity.

[@DaveRat]

Sounds like it could be polarity on some of the consoles for more likely the artist was sensitive to latency differentials and each console/plugging/other gear had a different latency. Just like with polarity, differing latencies combined differently with your body resonance and create comfilting effects

[@dustinthiessen]

how long did you work for Tom? Had Tom through a festival a few years ago, I wonder if you were there...

[@lukewestlake]

@@DaveRat That's exactly it. Tom and I both liked working on analog consoles the best. When it came to digital consoles, I kept plugins out of his signal path. We carried small rack with a Shure wireless mic running line level into a Distressor so we got a great vocal sound without plugins. I worked with another Canadian artist who was extremely sensitive to latency/polarity. He didn't use wedges, IEMs, or any monitors at all until late 90s. And even then, when line arrays became standard he only used sidefill monitors aimed more out to the crowd than directly on stage because it felt like an older style PA, which "felt right" to him. The longer latency made sense and was what he was used to in terms of hearing himself in the room and in the PA. He had one of the loudest (and best sounding) guitar rigs in the world, so getting those sidefills pumping helped the crowd in front as much as it helped him.

[@lukewestlake]

@@dustinthiessen Something like 2008-2015? I could be off by a bit, but it was quite a while. I made the rounds across Canada with a bunch of different artists over the years. Were you a promoter? Production provider? I bet you we've crossed paths.

[@peteleoni9665]

Dave, I am older than you been around etc etc 100% of my entire life has been wrapped up in audio production in every aspect from listener to musician recording production tech writing for major publications, you name it. Yet........you *always* teach me something I need to know. You sir, are a national treasure. I mean every word. Thanks Dave for all you do for us.

[@DaveRat]

So cool and thank you Pete!

I love how he's casually using this little Behringer mixer with leftover tape on it from RHCP. Would love to believe he mixed a stadium tour on it.

[@brenthandycts131]

Those little mixers have more bandwidth and extended frequency response then any digital mixer known to mankind.

[@DaveRat]

We use that mixer as a drum sub mix for Chad for a while in the outfit of it went back to the monitor board to get sent to his in yours along with other stuff. It was a way Chad good self-modify his own Indian mix a bit with the monitor engineer they had at the time

[@emancia]

You're a freaking genius. I didn't realize this was what was happening when I was listening to myself talking to a ribbon mic from the negative side, and the effect switching sides when flipping the polarity...

[@DaveRat]

Exactly and great way to rest and hear it!

[@antonycharest4719]

I will definitely have to check that out. For years I haven’t been able to sing on pitch with in ear and now I can and it seems to correlate with our new console. Thanks

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. Console latency is also a big factor and will do vid on that soon. Newer consoles have less latency than older ones

[@SunnySingh-pb2wm]

Real interesting stuff Dave, it's something I've never really paid any attention to but it makes perfect sense! Gonna try this out with the band on the weekend

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and let me know how it goes!

[@gtrdrumsplayerduarte]

I have been talking this for years. Also true for monitoring wedges. Also true for every instrument, the sound acoustic drums summed to inears, acoustic guitars summed....you get the picture. Also monitor wedges polarity versus the main PA. RAT is the man, continue on discussing this "invisible" enemies.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@SousaphoneMusic]

often you bring up ideas that i have never thought about before but seem so incredibly obvious in hindsight

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@thomasachlios8302]

Dave in this setup put delay on headphones out to compensate the physical delay from mouth to ear drum....12-15cm..

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, would probably need to find an analog delay line to do that. Being that the conversion latency to convert to digital and back to analog of most digital delays is is around a millisecond or longer, which is about 3x the amount of delay you are recommending, this would be a challenge. Would need to find an ultra low latency digital delay and then set the delay time to 0 to even get close.

[@me3dnone107]

It's amazing how you always bring up topics I never thought about. Extremely inspiring! Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@gregorykusiak5424]

Striking demo - it’s precisely why some folks have more trouble than others adopting IEMs. Looking forward to the digital follow-up to this to see if I’ve stumbled onto mitigation techniques on the right track or if I need to rethink things. 🤔

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@MaxoticsTV]

My voice through my pinky toe is the finest voice in the world! But my az gets in the way of the world appreciating it! Thanks for the PROOF I need ;) I was looking at one of your AES presentations from 2010 and you talk about how adding some pink noise can increase the ability to tolerate loud sound. This is one deep rabbit hole!! :)

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@skyrin_]

Sometimes I'm jealous of genius people like you! 😄I (probably) would have never in my entire life thought of this! And recently I've been having trouble with some singers not hearing their own voice well even when they're maxed out. I don't know if reversing the polarity will help but I'd try it on the next show. As always thanks for the awesome content 🫡

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and let me know what happens

[@kellanbellchamber6430]

I am just starting out in the live industry (3 years) and these videos are absolutely invaluable to me. They teach me so much and I appreciate you sharing this information for anyone to access! I had no idea how important polarity was for something like IEMs, not just front of house. Very interesting, thank you Dave, truly.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and good luck on your endeavors!

[@TomiBonTomi_2.0]

Excellent topic and very well explained, sir!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@kelvinfunkner]

unbelievable! I don't know of anyone else who tackles these kinds of anomalies and successfully presents them in a verifiable way. pure genius!

[@DaveRat]

So cool and thank you!

[@srenkrabbe2991]

I have never seen this experiment done before - great of you to exemplify it - but I have told many (non-sound-pros)people the almost same story (about the sound coming through their body and skull to the inner ear) when they are chocked after heaing a recording of their own voice for the first time. Most non-sound-pro people have difficulties understanding why their voice sound so different on the recording compared to what they hear themselves. I guess we have all been there the first time we heard our own voice from a recording :-)

[@DaveRat]

Yes the internal residence where bodies is very much involved in our perspective. Agreed

[@wilcandou]

I find in the studio when using IEMs, the natural body resonates into their own sound of themselves and if I (via eq) take out or balance those natural resonance frequencies their perception of their own voice becomes a lot clearer, without (as it were) the doubling of this phenomenon in their ears. Plus the talents ears are not as fatigued.

[@Oleg_K.]

Could you explain that a bit more? I'm not following and I'd really like to know.

[@trp051]

Next gig I have to try this out with the band I work with. You are the best Dave! We met once in Zageb, at the RHCP concert. Cheers!

[@josefbuckland]

Ooooh marvellous Prof. Ratt is in the house. Now do one on phase turbulence. Oh no you sort of already did with atmospheric influence on line array. Still the GUI software you can now map and test a range of options with no waste in time on rolling gear out. I think the engineering you put into the reinforcement like Coachella etc is where you need so much more appreciation. I’m just glad you are still down to earth and accessible. Our Bussiness would not be sounding half as good if it was not for your advice some 15 years ago on PA. speaking of the software a great comparison is in the lighting world. Martins Light Jockey completely welcomed me into my DMX lighting and watching the Pink Floyd Pulse concert shows you how far lighting consoles have come. But still that lighting rig won’t date based on the magical way it was executed. It’s a bit like your fingers on the pots and faders. HEY HEY the test tone you could remix into a DANCE Anthem. keep up the awesome work as always sir.

[@renaramadan4626]

super interesting topic and great demonstration!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!👍🤙👍

[@guyjohnson16-44.1]

Great, this the the second video I've seen on in-ears and polarity (your one with a good audio work-around) ... even with PA and/or monitors, I always flip the polarity just to check... different systems, different venues....makes such a difference!

[@danimartinezordonez6486]

Amazing demostration. Thanks for the video.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@audioquest1]

Thank You Dave very interesting. Looking forward to hear the Latency from digital console

[@tm8473]

Interesting stuff. I never considered this issue before. I'm not sure that all headphones or IEM on the market have the same polarity, so checking the coherence for my musicians (singers) will become an everyday pratice for me.

[@DaveRat]

I do know that JH Audio in ears are reverse polarity to just about everything else

[@geosLABtv]

Another one very well created video with a great topic and of course very educational content!!! Well done Dave... ... Well done!!! And something little of topic: As Broadcast Engineer myself, i have come crossed with another one technique for Vocal "preprocessing"... The Phase Rotation Technique! This is can be achieved with the use of an All-Pass filter, and this in some occasions of voiceovers "male vocals usually" can do miracles!!! The most famous circuit of that type, is the one of "the front-end" of the analogue processor: Orban Optimod FM 8100, or the other beast: Texar Audio Prism. ...the Phase Rotation part only!!!

[@DaveRat]

Interesting and thank you. Will check it out

[@erikchild4799]

Cool. Nice way to demonstrate that concept... not seen anything like that before

[@DaveRat]

So cool thank you EriK!

[@CooperMcBean]

I have wondered about this for years, and every monitor engineer I have asked about it looked at me like I was insane!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome!!!

[@Scodiddly]

Funny thing - we have a C-Ducer set in our rental gear, and whenever it comes back from a rental I test it by holding it against my throat and talking! Never thought to try this kind of experiment with it, though.

[@DaveRat]

That's a smart way of testing it very cool

[@dhpbear2]

8:00 - I would assume the polarity of the audio coming from your *neck* is *reverse* of the audio coming out of your *mouth* ?

[@DaveRat]

Why would that be? Would mic'ing the strings of a guitar be a different polarity than mic'inh the body of a guitar? If so why and is that your experience?

[@dhpbear2]

@@DaveRatMy *theory* is the following. Imagine at the top of the note's cycle, the vocal chords are 'pushing out', so the skin is 'pulling in'. Think of the front and rear waves created by a loudspeaker being reversed polarity.

[@DaveRat]

Interesting. And like the creative thought What you describe would and does create differing sounds and phase shifts That said, polarity is more distinct and radiating an in polarity and out of polarity signal kind of needs something with 2 distinct and similar sides or to be done electronically. You can not have a polarity reversal without also having a null. So a speaker that is not in a box will be in polarity on one side and out of polarity in the other side and 90 degrees off axis you will have a null. Same with a figure 8 mic, So another way to look at it is " if you don't have a null, then there is no polarity reversal in the sound being radiated So to determine if our body resonance radiates an in and out of polarity sound, we would look for the null" Where is the 1/2 way point where the sound is really quiet? Have someone speak and see if you can find a null.

[@cgtbrad]

Dude! I've always felt that some people hear out of polarity compared to others. I've solved so many 'I can't hear myself very well' problems by just flipping polarity back and forth and asking which way sounds better. When I talk in the mic it sounds bad, but they say it sounds great and centered! Same IEM model, same wirless pack, same mic, just a different person..

[@DaveRat]

Interesting

[@Oleg_K.]

​​@@DaveRatDave, is it possible that some people talk "in polarity" and other talk "out of polarity"? That, on the same rig, one is in phase and the other is out when singing or simply talking into the mic?

[@DaveRat]

Not really, polarity is comparative. Polarity reversals do not happen in nature and are man made. When that sound is captured electronically, then the sound/signal can be polarity reversed and manipulated in many ways But to us hearing our own voice, we have the body resonance and sound to our ears and those combine in the way we hear ourselves. When we replace the sound we hear with an electronic version using headphones or in ears, that electronic version can be similar or vastly different from what we naturally hear Some reason you may find polarity preferences change from person to person is that the electronic version is being delayed by digital latencyy causing cancellations in cone filtering. Or maybe the person wants to hear less low frequencies and the outer polarity gives less so frequencies when turning down the low frequencies would be better than reversing polarity.

[@cgtbrad]

@ to me when the relative polarity is ‘right’ the sound is focused inside my head, while when it’s wrong the sound is in my ears - less of a frequency thing to me…

[@cgtbrad]

@ How do we know what 'polarity' another humans ear is sensitive to and how their brain processes it. We will never know. This is similar to colors. What looks blue to *me* might be totally different than what *you* see. Again, we only know how our own brains process the color being received by our eyes. Maybe it's all an illusion and none of this is real! HAH!

[@TallAlex1]

I worked with a monitor engineer in the 90s who had just come off George Michael's MTV unplugged show. Apparently he insisted on have a 12ms delay inserted to his vocal channel for his ears(using an SPX90) , and could tell when it was inserted. I figured it was a haas effect, and it gave precedent to the ocular effect (hearing his own voice in his ears) from the ears feed....

[@tomehCanada]

Great idea using the contact transducer for the demo. Sometimes taking all of the monitors out of polarity with the front of house can cancel a lot of bass foldback from the FOH onto the stage. Also when two mics are relatively close during a recording a degree of cancellation can be obtain between the two by reversing one and making it sound like less bleed and better separation.

[@mypetdrgn]

Wow! I’ll try that! Thx!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍👍

[@bbfoto7248]

This is why Zero-Latency or Low-Latency monitoring while tracking or live performance of our own voice (and even while playing instruments) is so important...especially via digital systems. Even with Zero Latency monitoring, the direct bone and tissue conduction of our own voice is already ~4 cycles ahead of the airborne sound we hear. 1500m/s transmission via our body vs 343m/s transmission via the air.

[@Scodiddly]

Some performers actually like adding just a few mS of delay. It changes the relative phase of the electronic signal vs. the body sound.

[@dhpbear2]

I've encountered KZbin videos were the Left and Right channels are opposite polarity. If you're watching them on a monophonic device, you're SOL!

[@brenthandycts131]

Would inverting the lead singer be helpful? I know a few who need to be upside down.

[@DaveRat]

Bands with members playing while upside down are always a good thing

[@ReinerDamisch]

This is also relevant for horn players using IEs. And using ribbon mikes. Front and back are out of polarity.

[@MrNicknayme]

Bone conducting (etc.) also has an effect on regular wedges. Not just IEM.

[@DaftyBoi412]

Haha what a really cool, fun vid idea!! (edit) Also brought home at the end with a very important use case/thing to be wary of).

[@maxswingingstroke]

Thank you so much!

[@DaveRat]

Wow and thank you Max! Cool cool and great to meet you

[@ReneAlexisPenalozaMunoz]

Wow that's a cool experiment.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@MrNicknayme]

I always flip the polarity on d:facto mics, since they are wired in reverse.

[@SuperMcgenius]

That was interesting, thanks😊

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@danzitoli2796]

Love the experiment, but really having a hard time hearing much of a difference that would affect singing? Only hearing less boomy low end when out of polarity? Listening at a decent volume on my studio monitors, but yeah, if you were just to ask me with no context which sounded better, I'd say out of polarity? 🤷

[@DaveRat]

You have to take into account that once it's EQ'd be proper sounding, you would have to add more low end to the out of polarity signal. That means you are sending extra energy that is wasted and subjecting the eardrums to higher levels just to overcome the polarity issue. Additionally what doesn't show up in the video is that our ears are stereo and the outer polarity cancels out low end in the middle making the sound come from the sides more. And in polarity the sound unifies and is coming from dead center in your head. So the outer polarity signal requires more energy, subjects the eardrums to more SPL, and sounds discordant and unnatural as well

[@danzitoli2796]

@@DaveRat Ahh....that makes sense! I do wear ear in-ears while playing drums, so I can appreciate any way to lower the SPL while still getting a clean signal! On a side note: i see that some drummers are now using a low frequency "rumble pad" in the drum throne so they can feel the low-end while reducing the amount of low frequency signal going into their in-ears, making them work less hard and hear a better signal that's less taxing.

[@DaveRat]

Yes drum seat thumpers can be quite effective. And also even though this video is focused on vocals and internal resonance of your body versus the polarity of the in-ears, getting your inner polarity correct with your drums is important as well. You want your innings to enhance the sound of the drums that bleed through and you feel., rather than conflict. So yes I would look at polarity of the drums in your in ears. I did another video on drums in the drum monitor polarity. And this would apply to drummers within yours as well

[@danzitoli2796]

@@DaveRat Awesome! Thanks Dave. I do sing as well so looking fwd to experimenting with polarity!

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool and here is the vid on stage mic polarity kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqTSZJKcgbyMjJosi=zQpq3ATlbyGNTxd6

[@DerekHundik]

What does it mean polarity out of polarity ?

[@richmorpurgo5554]

Great video!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Xtreemdrummer]

In addition to the digital, it would be interesting to add the variable of external plugins (like Waves) to the equation.

[@mypetdrgn]

Soooo, monitor engineer tests each singer’s feed b4 show to make sure the planets are aligned? And we solve this by flipping the mic polarity ? (Sorry this was news to me and I want to be better at monitor feed).

[@DaveRat]

Pretty much but there are other things to consider. If you flip the polarity of the mic in the monitor rig now that mic is coming out the monitors in the opposite polarity that it's coming out of the main PA. This can cause other issues and make the mic sound thin if the main PA and monitors reproducing that mic are opposing polarities. So that you can reverse the mic in the main PA as well. Alternately making some adapters that reverse the polarity of the output of the console to the in ear send is an option.

[@mypetdrgn]

@@DaveRat ahhhhh! thus your reference to the switch! i get it now, thanks soooo much!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@awogbob]

dave speaks I listen

[@frankangermann6460]

But where to invert. the vocal mic only or the output to the iem-system?

[@imark7777777]

Weird thumbnail didn't recognize what I was looking at but of course it's a Dave Rat video with a title like that.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Zack-Hates-Youtube]

Was this a previously released Member video? I know after some time the videos go to the general public. Is it possible for you to put a note in the description that it was previously released? Oftentimes I get halfway through the video before realizing.

[@DaveRat]

Yes and great idea! Will do

[@lucasetten]

I wouldn’t think 'out of polarity' is the correct way to describe this. When two signals are out of polarity, they null completely, as you demonstrated at the start of the video. In this case, the sound of your internal voice (via bone conduction and tissue resonance) reaches your eardrums at a different time than the sound picked up by a microphone and played back through headphones. No matter how close you are to the mic, there will always be a time delay because your voice must travel through the air to the microphone, then through the headphone drivers to your eardrums. In an all-analog signal path, these delays are minimal but still present, and in a digital signal path, the delay increases due to processing time. Flipping the polarity can certainly help with this issue by affecting how the signals combine-potentially increasing or decreasing coupling with your internal voice. However, this is due to the phase relationship between the two signals, which varies depending on the delays and distances involved, rather than the signals being purely 'out of polarity.' It’s more accurate to say that polarity adjustments may influence phase alignment and, consequently, the way the two signals interact.

[@bbfoto7248]

@lucasetten Agreed. This is a "variable phase" and "time delay" issue, not a perfect 180 degree In-Phase/Out-Of-Phase issue, and the acoustic/airborne sound is also several cycles late in time in relation to the internal bone/tissue conduction of our own voice. @DaveRat You've probably covered this in one of your other videos, but the Speed Of Sound through the human body is approximately 1500 Meters Per Second (m/s). In room temperature air, the Speed Of Sound is approximately 343 Meters Per Second. That's a difference of roughly 4x. Unfortunately, there is no way that I'm aware of to Delay the direct internal bone & tissue conduction Speed Of Sound of our own voice to our eardrums. Luckily our brain is a very powerful processor. This added bone/tissue conduction is of course why hearing our recorded voice for the first time is so startling and different to how we experience our own voice while actually speaking or singing. Raise your hand if you hated your voice the first time you heard a recording of it, LOL?

[@tomehCanada]

Don't forget those delays (just like the propagation time between stage monitors and mics, 1 ms per foot approx) also lessen the effect on the higher frequencies first because the wavelengths are shorter than the time delays. Still most helpful on the bass frequencies for the opposite reason (long wavelengths).

[@DaveRat]

This test deals with polarity but yes there are impacts related to distances, equipment latencies, level differentials and tonal balances. As far as the time it takes from lips to mic and headphones to ear, interestingly you can actually achieve time delays that are less than what we naturally experience when we're speaking. When we speak the sound from our mouth leaves our lips and travels 4 inches or so do our ears but if you speak into a microphone less than an inch away and we're headphones that are less than an inch from your ear, and you use analog gear that has almost zero latency, then the electronic sound actually arrives your earlier than it naturally would. As far as summing two signals that are out of polarity and getting cancellation that applies to identical signals if you want to achieve high degrees of null. Since one of these signals is coming into a vocal mic and the other is being grabbed by a contact mic on skin, And as you can hear the sound of these two signals is vastly different, we cannot achieve a high degree of cancellation by using polarity. I would venture to say that the demonstration I'm using the neck mic does not fully capture the difference that polarity reversals cause and it is more audible than was able to demonstrate in this video.

[@tomehCanada]

@@DaveRat It is very cool that now with relatively inexpensive DAW's we can actually view time of arrival and phase differences between channels/tracks. You are such a creative illustrator Dave. Keep these cool video's coming. Cheers from Canada.

[@simonetternavn2691]

i wonder if the cause if this polarity importance stems from the comb filtering that occurs when you mix the signal transmitting through your body with the signal from a typical stage microphone witch will be slightly delayed both by the distance from the larynx and the latency of the monitor console. so changing the polarity in this case might essentially mean swapping between to polar (hehe) opposite comb fitlers. wich leads me to an intruiging possibility, perhaps adding a tiny bit of delay may create a more favorable outcome, something to try next time im mixing for a buddy who i know will be being messed with a tiny bit xD

[@DaveRat]

As long as the gear is not wired to induce a polarity reversal, all should good. A positive pressure leaving the mouth should be reproduced as a positive pressure on the ear drum. That said, there are in-ears brands that have reversed polarity , Like the entire product line of JH Audio. Also, some mics are reverse polarity either by manufacture or due to being repaired. I tested in-ears transmitters and found at least on manufacturer that has a reversed polarity on the front panel headphone out. Also, headphones can be in or out of polarity. But, it all is wired correctly where a positive pressure on the mic produces a positive pressure on the output of the in-ears or headphone, then polarity is a non issue and you can move on to dealing with the impacts of latency caused by digital gear as an adventure to work on.

[@kangaroosport5566]

That was awesome.

[@TheInterGalacticFederation]

Clever idea!

[@jarrodbiesmann]

Thank Dave. The thumbnail for this video should've been when you're putting on the c-ducer.

[@davidzuluaga9783]

When they ask my experience on sound ingener i'll say DaveRat videos

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

Neck Mic.... hahahahahahaha! Thanks, Dave for another great video!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you Edwin!

[@ChristianjaySabado]

Clair global sound image and rat sound system best audio provider

[@gabesafool]

You sound like Matthew mcconaughey