Microsoft Adopts Rust AGAIN For This Major App?

Looks like Microsoft is hiring Rust developers to come in and rewrite a major underlying layer of their platforms. Tune into the video to get the latest update as well as some tips on learning Rust yourself.
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[@sumodsivadas6959]

Started learning Rust, No regrets 🦀

[@stevepottz111]

None! It’s so nice!

[@KantSeemee-ye3cb]

I've been working in Rust for a year now. No language has better ergonomics or tooling than Rust, and you will not regret the effort you put in to learning it!

[@none_the_less]

Have you experimented with all the languages and all the toolings of those languages to reach such a conclusion?

[@zweitekonto9654]

Naah im gonna take my golang and leave.

[@Luxalpa]

@@none_the_less I guess it's true for ergonomics not sure if it's true for tools. But I've only been using php, js, ts, go, c++, asm, java, delphi, c# and python for the last 20 years before switching to rust

[@KantSeemee-ye3cb]

@@none_the_less Yes, of course! Haven't you? It's called "hyperbole." It's this nifty literary device that uses deliberate exaggeration to show preferences or emotion.

[@none_the_less]

@@KantSeemee-ye3cb ;) No after the fact explanation will make the comment above less stupid than it is. Good try though.

[@billybest5276]

I started with rust 6 months ago and I wont be stopping anytime soon. I learned to code in c++ but till recently I did all my work in JS. Having the c++ background made learning rust a lot easier and learning rust probably also made me a better c++ programmer. I didn't have the confidence to use c++ in production but Rust has given me the confidence to tap into the benefits of using a general lower level languages and really level up my skills. But anybody that says c++ is deprecated doesn't know what their talking about xD

[@sirbuttonhd]

I hope C++ will learn from Rust's "safe by default" take which makes it so accessible for devs with different kinds of experience. Seems Stroustrup realizes this at least, so I think C++ vs Rust will be interesting.

[@billybest5276]

@@sirbuttonhd Cargo is a big win for rust too. Not having to figure out build files only adds to that accessibility.

[@DS-nv2ni]

@@sirbuttonhd C++ has nothing to learn from Rust, people have to learn how to think properly instead than making a cult about a new inferior language. There will be no Rust in 10 years or it will be almost unused.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

None of these “legacy” languages ever get killed. The space just expands and they borrow (pun) from each other. Rust is influenced by both C++ and C# and ML languages.

[@DS-nv2ni]

@@sirbuttonhd I hope you will learn something about the job you do after some years, C++ doesn't have anything to learn from Rust, and btw Rust will remain a niche language only sustained by people out of touch. I'm laughing so much listening to all these people praising Rust, you are funny people, anyway, we will see how it ends.

[@naranyala_dev]

Rust on Windows, as well as the Linux Kernel, is highly recommended to master

[@karanmungra5630]

I think even bigger selling point, I had with rust is that it is really nice to work with than most other languages.

[@Mike----]

Yes, I hear there’s a supply chain problem making spare time hard to come by. I can’t find any for sale anywhere.

[@JChen7]

Guess it's time to finally crack open a Rust book...

[@TravisMedia]

doc.rust-lang.org/book/

[@theguatemalian]

Most non-greenfield Rust projects of this nature require interop with C or C++ code meaning you need to know both Rust and C++ to be effective at those jobs. So sure learn Rust but don't forget to also learn C/C++ to understand and interop with it. Languages are just tools, not religions.

[@Heater-v1.0.0]

Please don't confuse having very good reasons to use a language with a religious zeal to do so. As a practical matter life is too short and time is too scarce for most people to learn C++ as well if the are coming to Rust from some other languages. C++ is ridiculously huge and complicated, nobody knows it well. An understanding of C is far easier to obtain and would likely be useful.

[@FunkyELF]

Cool, but can they get spell check working on MS Teams?

[@enochfrance8466]

Thought I was the only one going crazy.

[@TheMasonX23]

That's awesome! I'm so excited that Rust is making its way into key products like this! Eventually I'd love to convince my team to use Rust, and stuff like this helps

[@colinmaharaj50]

3:40 They are saying they are moving away from C/C++ but the job ad suggest they are moving away from C# ?

[@marcelo-ramos]

That's one specific job post. They are adopting it in multiple areas of the company.

[@colinmaharaj50]

@@marcelo-ramos got you

[@CarlosWashingtonMercado]

What about Q#? I wonder how Q# is going to affect the development of OSs.

[@LengCPP]

I just started learning c/c++ will program with it for at least 2 years before I pick up something with as steep a learning curve. At this moment I do everything in either python/JS. I like the high level langauges.

[@tablettablete186]

Tbh, Rust isn't that hard when you already understand low level code and C/C++. I was able to pick it fairly easy

[@LengCPP]

@@tablettablete186 cool I can see about it later then

[@Light13378]

So will rust replace C\C++ and i am in learning c should i stop and start rust any advice

[@sbvnkosi]

No don't stop. Just learn C, and systems very well, and play around with some open source softwares, build a mini-text editor, mini-Operating System, mini-web-server, etc. The goal should be to understand the low level infrastructure with less resistance, and C provides that. And then after you can pick up rust very quick. Don't disturb your learning by focusing on what is trending.

[@TravisMedia]

That's good advice. C to Rust should be an easy-ish move.

[@Light13378]

​@@sbvnkosiOkay thanks

[@liquidmobius]

@@Light13378 The C++ committee and community is actively taking serious steps to address safety and security, especially with memory. C++ isn't going anywhere. Keep learning it.

[@yuridelossantos569]

if you stop now, u won't finish anything because once you have learned rust, another programming language like zig will appear and some would promote it and say how wonderful it is, then you stop learning rust and jump again into it. programming languages are just tools, look at james bond, what he has is small pistol and everything else is just to him.

[@Mike----]

I’m currently on chapter 7 of The Rust Programming Language book. It’s well worth the time to read. I have some exposure to Java, C, and C++. Of the three I like C++ the most and Java the least. As I’ve been learning Rust I get the impression that hard lessons learned from other languages were deeply considered. The result is a very clever language that makes me feel more confident and eager to learn more. The future of programming will certainly include a prominent place for Rust. No doubt.

[@not_ever]

As you learn more and more programming languages, I fully expect the statement, "I like [...] Java the least" to remain truthful.

[@plaidchuck]

@@not_everno idea peoples issues with java. Like erhmagerd i have to write public again, what a burden.

[@yuridelossantos569]

I won't replace my COBOL.

[@liquidmobius]

Rust has a higher-than-average barrier to entry and generally requires a higher-than-average developer knowledge. Plus the fact that it's not necessarily a mature language and has use cases that are better supported than others. All this to say Rust should be used when necessary, but sparingly. Where another language like Go is more appropriate, it should be used. In short, Rust is not the end all, be all.

[@tlingit]

"You are PARTIALLY right at 5:17 when you said, "In my opinion no one should be looking anywhere else to learn Rust before working one - maybe two - times through the Rust book. There's really no shortcut; it's all there in the book." Yes, if you already know how to code in some language, then you should look to the Rust book to start learning Rust. However, trainers are massively overlooking a lucrative opportunity that (so far) no one is serving well at all: universities. Rust is not too hard to learn for a first language, and many universities would be teaching it as a first language if they had decent materials to teach with. Before you criticize, I work in IT at a major university, and we recognize the emergence and importance of Rust. We also think it's dumb to require students to learn another language so they can throw it away and then learn Rust. Moving through Rust slowly and intelligently, universities could be graduating people with Rust proficiencies. The person who creates a great Rust-as-a-first-language curriculum will enjoy steady revenue semester after semester for a very long time.

[@pabloqp7929]

agreed

[@Mike----]

Are you saying there is a need for a curriculum that teaches software fundamentals using Rust?

[@joshi1q2w3e]

So do we still need to learn C/C++ before learning Rust?

[@JkyLi]

IMO, yes. Not because you might write C++ in the future, but because if you never know C/C++ in the first place, you would hardly understand the problems that Rust solved.

[@akauppi2]

You can learn them in any order.

[@JorgetePanete]

No.

[@marcelo-ramos]

No if you want to focus on Rust. Having said that, everybody should learn C, at least the basics. C++ not so much.

[@Mike----]

I know it’s interesting to understand what problems Rust solves, compared to C and C++, but I don’t think that’s important enough to consider them prerequisites for Rust. Just learn Rust and be happy.

[@Kane0123]

Interesting to see Microsoft concerned about memory usage.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Memory management rather than memory usage. And it applies to all of them. Android, Chromium, Linux...

[@arieligena7]

And we will see blue screens or orange screens?

[@cody_codes_youtube]

I’ve hated on Rust for years now. However… this is a signal that would change my mind. I’m also an old man when it comes to new languages. Until there are real time jobs demanding those frameworks or languages, I usually ignore them. This is cool to hear

[@arson5304]

hating on something just because it's new? 🤣

[@cody_codes_youtube]

@@arson5304 not necessarily. I’ve seen probably 12-20 frameworks or languages in my career talked about with the same level of excitement. Only maybe 2-3 of those have survived and are used after 3 years. It’s exhausting

[@stephm0]

Those jobs will likely ask for 5 yrs of experience though

[@danfg7215]

​@@arson5304 at the pace new tech and frameworks pop up, as a veteran software developer myself, it gets exhausting. I've also wasted years learning stuff that didn't pan out and that I ended up not using anymore. I think I'll give this Rust thing a try though.

[@Mike----]

I had a couple false starts with Rust which turned me off. It felt like a steep learning curve and too time consuming until I got The Rust Programming Language book. I’m getting some traction this time and I can see why people love it so much. I’ve never been good at predicting what will appeal to the masses, but I think Rust will continue to grow.

[@RazgrizDuTTA]

I am near the end of my PhD in mechanical engineering and I want to pivot into software development after that. I want to learn Rust but there is no Rust job in my country. There are C++ jobs but it feels like investing my time learning C++ is the wrong move for the future.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Depends what field you want to get into really. I would suggest learning Python as a first language and then maybe JavaScript and take it from there. Those will set you up for scientific computing, AI and the web. There are Rust jobs but they are hard to get. E.g., they certainly don’t cater for entry-level programmers and even senior programmers typically need domain experience.

[@DS-nv2ni]

Don't listen to fanboys please, be smart, do it for yourself, you can see with your own eyes isn't? What reason you have to learn a language the "maybe" tomorrow will still be used? C++ will make you a better programmer, and more importantly a programmer with a job, if this trash will ever see the light in world production, then you will see many jobs popping up, and by learning it in your free time, you will be able to switch job. Spoiler alert: Rust will remain a niche language.

[@RazgrizDuTTA]

I learned C first but never did a real project with it. I've done a few projects in Python. Same for R. I've used Julia for the last 3 years doing quite complex projects. I agree learning C++ is the practical choice. But becoming good at it seems such a long term investment that I question if it's worth it in the long run. It beats not having a job with Rust I guess...

[@davidvernon3119]

Rust is a strange and wonderful language. It often makes my head sore, but always makes my heart soar.

[@hakanaki]

Why is run bad for building user interfaces ?

[@Nan0MK_Old]

They really need to add rust to Visual Studio

[@iova666]

VS Code has great support for rust :)

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

I’m guessing that the tweet about making it a first class language etc implies they will be adding it to VS. But in the meantime the VS Code tooling is very good. And JetBrains RustRover will no doubt be excellent. But no idea whether they will offer a free version.

[@StuartLoria]

Rust is inevitable it seems, message received.

[@dirkp.6181]

Slogans with "Rust on product XY" or "Rusted XY" to promote will be a nightmare in the reception of every average PR or marketing division. - So bring them on! 😅 "See our new XY! Now even with Rust" "Now thoroughly Rusted to meet your expectations for safety!"

[@Fanaro]

What about Zig?

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Not 1.0 yet but from what I can see it should have its place too.

[@arieligena7]

Seems very performant

[@oussamasethoum1665]

it will be cool if they start writing the ui in rust and not c# xD

[@catalinagalan]

What do you think about learning Rust as a beginner? Do you think it’s better to have some backend experience first?

[@Mike----]

When you say “back end experience,” it sounds like you’re talking about web development. Rust can definitely be used for web dev, front and back end, if that’s your goal. And no, you don’t need back end experience to start learning Rust. As “a beginner” of some sort (web developer, systems programmer, embedded systems developer, etc) you have to start somewhere. Rust is as good a place to start as any.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

I wouldn’t recommend learning Rust as a beginner. But I would say the same of C and C++.

[@catalinagalan]

@@Mike---- yes I am a web developer, and very curious about Rust.

[@ozanox6700]

Its done

[@PillesPlace]

This is so much fun. Let's Rust away.

[@user-zv4vu9np2j]

first comment by surafel i like your videos they are informative!!!

[@jaymartinez311]

Once polonius becomes stable and intergrated into the language it’ll make rust even easier to learn. Look it up.

[@plaidchuck]

Telling juniors to go learn Rust now lol good luck..

[@timjrgebn]

Late to the party, but I'm gonna throw my hat in this discussion as an ML engineer. In ML, I've been noticing a pattern. The researchers who try to profit from prototypes make python ML pipelines, only for their promises not to materialize. The engineers using Rust to build ML stuff end up accidentally making real slick production-ready products, but don't know how to profit from it. It's a hilarious paradox I hope someone reading this can resolve. Build products with Rust with profit in mind, and you'll eat the ML industries lunch every day. They wouldn't know what hit them.

[@TravisMedia]

Interesting

[@timjrgebn]

@@TravisMedia, you might find the Rust library "Burn" interesting. They manage to significantly reduce required compute in their deep learning pipeline. All while people are decompiling Modular's recent Mojo vs. Rust benchmark code and finding they were fudging what's happening within their compiler. Same happen with Ultralytics' YoloV5 model, where the original maintainer of the Yolo object detection models called them out for lying about their model performance by intentionally ignoring batch sizes during training runs. They've been trying to push more SOTA models ever since, yet the ML community still hasn't wised up. The ML community is flooded with python "engineers" fudging ML model and system specs to get high valuations from VCs, only for real software engineers to come in and debunk it. My bet is whoever can go in and profit using real engineering best-practices will take over that market. Sadly, most of the systems-level innovation happening is abroad, since they are focused on reducing compute costs (not inflating them for profit --> like with AWS).

[@betapacket]

The shortcut for learning Rust is examples and screwing around.

[@irlshrek]

im a huge rust fan

[@Isra-p1]

and crabs are so cool too 🦀

[@user-ey2ei4oz3m]

This is probably going to lead to lots of Rust adoption; but will it reduce the size of Windows at runtime?

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Google (Android) and Amazon (AWS) are probably further ahead with Rust at this point than Microsoft.

[@zoeherriot]

So when are MS, Nintendo and Sony going to rewrite their game dev eco-systems to support Rust? It's going to take a decade from the point these companies start making that move to get the Games Industry up to speed (rewriting tools, pipelines and engines).

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

I would expect games to be a C++ niche for a long time.

[@zoeherriot]

@@kevinmcfarlane2752 I agree - the console manufacturers aren’t going to change their ecosystem anytime soon. Keeps me in a job anyway. ;)

[@user-kv4yt7ly8o]

Rust is the new C

[@DS-nv2ni]

Nope

[@drac8854]

But there are no jobs for rust without experience....

[@akauppi2]

Started my Rust project in 2023. Already have 1 year of experience! 😉

[@drac8854]

@@akauppi2 works if you have technical job.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Catch 22, like with lots of things! I’ve applied for one job. Didn’t get a response. I had one job run past me paying a very low salary.

[@user-gh4lv2ub2j]

Me caveman! Me no like rust! Me use pure c and Python anyday.

[@DS-nv2ni]

You smarter than many then, me caveman too

[@SquirrltheRiddl]

Finally jesus christ took ehm long enuff

[@MadalinIgnisca]

So C# really sucks that bad?

[@marcelo-ramos]

Not at all. They still LOVE C# at Microsoft. This is more about the promise of Rust.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

No. Different tools for different purposes. Bear in mind that Google has Go but they too are getting heavily into Rust - in Android right now, with Chromium on the roadmap.

[@alarie0]

0:28 microsoft dev uses keynote instead of powerpoint

[@sirbuttonhd]

Keynote means presentation/talk, not necessarily the Apple program.

[@alarie0]

​@@sirbuttonhd i know but that doesnt change my point

[@dovh49]

Rust is overly complicated. It's nice for a systems language, but day to day language I don't care for it. I like V as it is simple and straight forward and has all the constructs I need. It's still early on though.

[@TravisMedia]

That's the first I've heard of V

[@sirbuttonhd]

Even though V is short for Vaporware... They promisted Go simplicity with Rust performance and safety. Of course people with a clue knew that was basically impossible, and look where they are today; with a GC, just like Go...

[@pyyrr]

i think rust is maybe a little overrated

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

It’s not overrated but it also doesn’t mean we should use it for everything!

[@ActualJosiahPreston]

This further strengthens my resolve to not learn Rust.

[@kevinmcfarlane2752]

Why?

[@alphamaster2]

So Zig lost the battle already?

[@climatechangedoesntbargain9140]

What battle?

[@AdamFiregate]

Zig has still 3-4 years to get to 1.0. Andrew said there are too many bugs and few people to help fixing them.

[@JorgetePanete]

Zig's compilation is weird, it compiles if your code fits your use case, which means you don't know if your generic functions work regardless of input. I don't know why they chose to do it like that.

[@awmy3109]

2028, they will jumping on the latest fad again. Why not make existing languages memory safe?

[@montebont]

Because in languages like JS memory management is not part of the language but is handled by a runtime like V8 ;-) In machine language you have to deal with it yourself in the "app". In C it's essentially the same...the infamous malloc(). The C compiler just looks at the statements (syntax) but does not have a clue about the dynamic behaviour (state if you will) of the app... The "ownership" concept is Rust is quite a unique way to define when data gets out of scope and it can safely be removed from memory. You do have a point that Rust is overkill for trivial app...

[@TravisMedia]

Their definition of "memory safe" is pretty much not c or c++ because of manual memory management and that being the large chunk of major vulnerabilities (I list the full list from the CISA in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3ickn-BdrCbmsUsi=-lVb_5g3fjj7NAKE. . But in short GC languages, and then Rust in its own uniqueness and speed..

[@arson5304]

there have been attempts with static analysis and smart pointers, but the simple reality is that c and c++ both need to support backwards compatibility from the past 3-4 decades. millions of programs written in c/c++ all rely on unsafe behaviors that would require breaking changes to fix if c/c++ were to try and fix their core memory model. instead of assuming these large companies are just hopping on fads, why not put actual research into your statements?