MiG vs Sabre 1951 - Crisis Over Korea

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Go to buyraycon.com/rwf for 20-40% off sitewide on Raycon products! Brought to you by Raycon.

[@jewishlifematters]

Could you do a video about the Israeli Shermans?

[@mrkalaspuff_3866]

Hey just so you know, you might want to go through and check the subtitles on this video

[@MarijnRoorda]

Well, this video was ad free too. And i can wait a bit longer if i still get the same video, for less then 2 dollars a month. It was very well worth it though. I highly enjoyed this. Reminded me a bit of the Real engineering channel, and military aviation history channel.

[@twfelt]

​a N, 😅 😂❤C L. ¹@@jewishlifematters

[@brooksroth345]

My dad was a radio operator in a B-29 on that day. When I was grown was when he talked about that day. Never spoke of it again. I took him to see the B-29 Fi-Fi when it came to our city. He wad able to fly in this aircraft in the radio operators seat. He looked like an excited school kid after. A great day. RIP dad.

[@GaryCameron]

Cool! FiFi came to our town but I just started a new job and couldn't get there while it was open for tours

[@doyoulikeduckmeat]

Sorry for your loss. I lost my dad last year.

[@Swagmaster07]

No offense I heard something similar about getting to fly in the Fi-Fi and looking like an excited school kid after.

[@skflwphgaawfas7402]

"on that day" . which day?

[@Swagmaster07]

@@skflwphgaawfas7402 Black Tuesday, watch the video.

[@singhdaksh404]

Silhouettes of both the jets are strikingly similar

[@logicmaster756]

But when you look at them they are not as similar as you think

[@RedWrenchFilms]

@@singhdaksh404 From the top they look almost identical! But the different shapes and sizes are more obvious when you see them from other angles of course

[@anginkentut1756]

I went to a museum where two of these are exhibited. And boy I was so surprised on how small the mig15 is compared to the f86. I've seen how different their sizes are in War Thunder. But it gave me a hugely different perspective in real life.

[@justin8894]

By the power vested in me I hereby promote you to ADMIRAL OBVIOUS.

[@lapantony]

That's more or less the case with most fighters of that time period. Come to think of it, most of the modern fighter planes look quite similar too. Almost like having similar tasks lands you with similar technical solutions or something

[@onyxcourt]

I feel like I wasnt supposed to watch this just yet 😅

[@RedWrenchFilms]

How did you?!

[@yato2468]

​@@RedWrenchFilms We got a time travel right here

[@julianowyujie]

​@@RedWrenchFilmstime traveling

[@timothyhayes9724]

Dude literally got to be first in a comment section that didn't exist yet 😂

[@onyxcourt]

​​@@RedWrenchFilms I wanted to watch some of your aircraft vids and went to the playlist, and lo and behold there it was. I think because it was in the playlist, the video's unlisted/private setting got bypassed 😅

[@jetknight6767]

Never ask an airforce nerd the NATO reporting name of the Mig-15

[@emergency_broadcast_system]

you can just go to 13:25 to find out

[@highjumpstudios2384]

I went to the Mig-15 base and everyone knew you

[@TJ042]

It means bassoon.

[@TheMexicoBear]

Another name for cigar. Still used by the Brits but offensive to Yanks.

[@TJ042]

@@TheMexicoBear yeah, the number of g's makes a big difference. Still, it through me for a loop the first time I heard it.

[@thatblueluma9713]

Excellent video! The F86 holds a special place in my heart, as my grandfather flew one over Korea. He never did talk about it, but I am proud to have been stationed on the same peninsula he flew over all those years ago

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Very cool!

[@BeachTypeZaku]

Tell your grandfather I said thank you for his service🇺🇲❤️🇺🇲!

[@MRptwrench]

I built many model planes as a kid but the ones that graced the sanctified air high above my pillow were the MiG-17 (at the time I thought it and not the 15 flew over Korea) and the F-86 Sabre. Locked in an eternal dogfight, dangling from my ceiling, their silhouettes conveyed raw power and speed more than any of the later generation jets that looked on jealously from atop my dresser and chest. They really seemed like an extension of the pilots' will. I still love them. Thank you for this video which will be added to my Jet Power playlist. I really did love the F-4 and my bombers, the B-58, B-66 and YB-60, but they looked better on their pedestals.

[@Surannhealz]

The Mig 15 and F-86 is a very classic beauty design. And very unique simplistic design of the early jets.

[@barryfrancis7421]

Elequently put, MR

[@FinalLugiaGuardian]

I think it's funny that the Russian pilots were given Korean translation and told to speak in Korean during combat initially. Once the actual fighting started that lasted all of thirty seconds before the pilots reverted back to Russian.

[@BeachTypeZaku]

I bet once the fighting started it lasted all of no seconds! Lol!😂

[@FinalLugiaGuardian]

@BeachTypeZaku To the Russian pilots' credit, they DID actually try to speak in Korean initially. But, even then, their accents still gave their secret away.

[@FinalLugiaGuardian]

@@BeachTypeZaku It's like asking an American English-speaking pilot to speak Mandarin Chinese while fighting with the ROC (Taiwanese) Air Force against the PRC.

[@BeachTypeZaku]

@@FinalLugiaGuardian Yes sir, difficult to keep up the charade when you're being shot at or shooting at somebody else! Lol! I'm pretty darn sure it was exceptionally easy to tell because of the accent. Lol!

[@BeachTypeZaku]

@@FinalLugiaGuardian You're asking me to do four things at once?! Lol!

[@trainingdays]

Btw, your explanation of compressibility over control surfaces was the best I’ve ever seen. The graphics were a great help as well! Thank you

[@TheCrashyBoi]

Agreed. Applies to War thunder pretty much

[@jtjames79]

Why did the MiG-15 have wing fences? To keep the air from defecting.

[@BeachTypeZaku]

Badum...*cymbal sound*😂

[@Argentvs]

Fun fact, Kurt Tank and his personal engineering team fled to Argentina in 1945 and took over the development of the fighter jet program. Pushing aside the Argentine engineers, causing a good amount of anger in the Aerotechnical Institute. The Ta-183 design would be continued as the Pulqui II program. But it is pertinent to say that the Pulqui II was not 100% Kurt Tank's, the Pulqui II program was started right after the Pulqui I which was a demonstrator. The Argentine engineers already laid out the general design of the II version, high swept wing, tricycle landing gear, cannons. The Aerotechnical Institute initiated a new design utilizing the Rolls-Royce Nene II turbojet engine. In early 1948, the Institute completed a scale model of what it called the IAe-27a Pulqui II. This design featured trapezoidal wings, swept back at an angle of 33°, and used a NACA 16009 laminar flow airfoil section. A revised model was built later that year with the wings relocated to a shoulder-mounted position and the tailplane changed to a T-tail configuration. Kurt Tank just appropriated the program and completed the detailed engineering works using his technical data from the Focke Wulf and continued his personal program Ta-183 as the IAe-33 Pulqui II. His solutions were not always welcomed by the argentine engineers. First 4 prototypes were unstable and caused crashes. It wasn't until he left the country in the 1950s that the Institute took over the program again and fixed the problems with the plane. The 5th prototype ( IAe-33e) flew flawless, but it was 1957 already and the US was pressing to kill the project, they didn't want a competitor for the Sabre and offered 100 Sabres in 1956 as discount to kill the FMA proposal to make 100 Pulqui IIs right away if funds were allocated. The factory had already 5 frames and 10 sets of wings. The Junta then killed the program after Nixon's visit to Buenos Aires and ordered the destruction of the Pulqui parts, tooling. The F-86 Sabres wouldn't arrive until the 1958-1960 and would be less than a third of the promised amount, 28 to be exact, all in subpar condiction, with corrosion heavy wear. The US government wouldn't authorize more, and they were sold are high overprices for 10 years old Korean War used planes. The prices were enough to buy newly made modern models by then.

[@williamsmith7340]

A familiar tale of those times. Canada’s AVRO Arrow suffered the same fate. A superior product discontinued and replaced with inferior second hand F-101 imports, while the engineers were brain-drained to jobs at American military contractors and NASA. Even in the 1950s, nothing could be allowed to compete without the Empire’s imprimatur.

[@RamGutta]

After he left Argentina, Kurt Tank went to India where he built the Marut with indian designers, which was ahead of its time. He built the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited company.

[@johncaldwell-wq1hp]

Wow !!--thats extremely interesting information,-thanks for taking the time,--I think I read about those Argentine Planes,in a American "Fight" Magazine in the 1970's-(you sparked my memory !!)

[@dukecraig2402]

​@@williamsmith7340 Canada dropped development of the Arrow for a multitude of reasons that had nothing to do with bedtime stories portrayed in Canadian made for TV movies and KZbin videos. The biggest reason was cost, Canada couldn't afford it, it's prototypes proved it was a long ways from being viable with a multitude of expensive problems that still needed to be solved, like arming it, and that it's operational costs would have been astronomical. The US actually wanted Canada to continue developing it with the US Air Force even offering to help fund it in the interest of buying them, the US military did after all buy military aircraft from Canada. It was ultimately internal politics in Canada from an unfriendly political party that wanted to slash military spending in favor of buying existing aircraft from foreign markets, aircraft that came complete with support and weapons that they wouldn't have to develop and pay for with domestic models, they wanted a cheaper way of spending less money on military aircraft in favor of domestic spending like their universal healthcare and other social programs, when you want your government to spend money on taking care of you it's gotta come from somewhere.

[@michaeltempsch5282]

Another one of the 'German inspired' early jets was the Swedish J-29 Tunnan (aka Flygande tunnan [Barrel/Flying barrel], from its rotund body), which took the speed record from the Sabre in '54.

[@Skyflamesgaming]

me playing war thunder while watching this: "damn there were many sweats during 1951 🤔"

[@yukiakito3083]

This was before they added the missile meta

[@matstick199]

​I mostly miss the historical(ish) team composition, soviet+german migs vs US/jap sabres and panthers, now I just close the game after flying my f86 against f104s with the migs on the same team as me@@yukiakito3083

[@Smackindaface]

War thunder is arcade trash

[@-..----.--.-...]

​@@Smackindaface lol

[@redsun9261]

​@@yukiakito3083 This was long ago. WT was actually fresh and good back then.

[@tombergins8215]

One thing that people seem to not notice or mention is: The F-86's wings are at the very bottom of the body smoothly connected as one piece meaning that the Sabre gets lift from the fuselage itself, while the MIG-15's wings are at the middle of the fuselage not really getting any lift from the plane's body or fuselage.

[@akosdobos8892]

Yes,but the mig's wing generated more lift in general. If you try them in simulators, migs will outturn the sabres

[@jacobnugent8159]

Would that wing orientation help to improve the roll rate of the mig

[@RohanSingh-zc4bm]

amazing video, can’t wait to see more of this series

[@Chilimans1]

Great video! I hope you continue this. If so, a Vietnam-era jets comparison would be nice. Or any vehicle comparison, really. Your videos are entertaining and informative nonetheless.

[@MrNightFury_]

Fun fact, there exist another grandchild of the P.1101 the swedish saab 29 tunnan. It resembles the P.1101 even closer and would have been fun to see how it would compare to the mig 15 and sabre.

[@worldoftancraft]

A pure-blooded interceptor versus its pure-blooded fighter vis-a-vis

[@garyfindlay5503]

Thank you, there are plenty of comparisons of aircraft from the second world war, but I found your comparison of early jets in the Korean war very interesting.

[@Elrusoargentino]

I hope you have a good day. I would like to make some very important remarks, as a Russian historian and I researched many of the many combats you describe in this video. You say that in the combat you analize around minute 17:00 in the video, which took place on 3 April 1951 that "one MiG was shot down, two more were damaged beyond repair, but a Sabre ran out of fuel and belly landed". One MiG was indeed downed and two damaged beyond repair. But the Sabre (F-86A BuNo 49-1173) was not lost that day but the next, 4 April, and not because of fuel starvation, but because it became the first prey of a future Soviet MiG-15 ace, Starshiy Leytenant (1Lt) Fiodor Shebanov (196 IAP, 324 IAD). The Sabre pilot (Major Ronald D. Shirlaw, 334 FIS) caught Shebanov alone because the young pilot was the No.4 of his zveno (flight) and lost his flightmates in the clouds. Shirlaw made an attack pass on him, but Shebanov forced him to overshoot, and shot him down at short range (250 meters). Igor Seydov and I have the guncamera picture. As you said, Shirlaw landed and was captured. But again, it happened on 4 April, not on the 3rd as is wrongly put on US records, and the ground party who captured Shirlaw and attempted to recover his belly-landed Sabre (led by a Soviet officer, Mayor V. P. Zuchenko) confirmed the damage caused by the 37 and 23 mm shells on the fuselage of the Sabre. They attempted to move the remains of this Sabre to Manchuria, but it was destroyed by an USAF air attack before they could make it.

[@Falkuria]

Interesting, it does happen a lot when each side has different records. This even happened a lot during world war 2. thanks for the insight on the Soviet side.

[@dukecraig2402]

One other thing he missed is that some of the Russian pilots went back to the Spanish Civil War and not just WW2 with their experience, an American pilot that flew with them in Spain who later went on to be in the AVG, the Flying Tigers, then flew in WW2 in the USAAF, Albert "Ajax" Baumler, was a radar operator in the USAF by the Korean War who could tell who some of the Russian pilots were by name from watching how they maneuvered and their tactics, he'd refer to them as "My boys" and was often interviewed by US intelligence about what he knew about them. For an interesting read try Some Still Live, it was written by another American and friend of Baumer's, Frank G Tinker, who flew in Spain with him, his book is considered to be the most thorough and accurate account of the air war in Spain from the Republican side, it's used by historians as reference material because in it he provided maps of the different locations that the Republican fliers operated out of (they're not in the paperback edition) along with other information that without his book would have spun off into the universe since after the war Franco had no interest in their story being told and had all the captured records destroyed. Tinker spent time with Hemingway in Spain and it's suggested he learned about writing from being around him, some authorities on the Hemingway note Tinker's writing is in the same style, Tinker is also thought to be the first person ever to have shot down an ME109, he's credited with having shot down 3 of the Condor Legion and his first is thought to be the first time it happened.

[@Mikebumpful]

I love when a channel reappears on my feed of which I'd watched and enjoyed many videos, but forgot to subscribe and forgot the name of the channel. Rest assured, I'm subscribed now! good stuff!

[@TheC-130]

A truly inpressive docummentary about the air war between the both fighters

[@mattjacomos2795]

... a lot more impressive than your spelling...

[@TheC-130]

@@mattjacomos2795 english isn't my primary language, so I know 2 languages and I used the one we both know, instead of the one you don't, simple, thanks for pointing out my mistakes, I'll improve my spelling

[@jimburig7064]

The fuselage configuration of the ME 262 is like something found in nature. Beautiful. Perfect.

[@kingfish2703]

I wonder how many cases of friendly fire happened with those similar looking planes

[@nickmitsialis]

I have seen a couple of 'oops' moments in gun camera footage

[@30AndHatingIt]

The MiG had a mid-body wing, the F-86’s was flush with the bottom.

[@nickmitsialis]

@@30AndHatingIt a split second glance with the adrenal glands running...easy to miss.

[@WildBillCox13]

Enjoying this. Great content. Thanks for posting.

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Thanks for watching!

[@shadeburst]

Very high production values. TY.

[@Curt_Sampson]

Yes, that was an excellent explanation of how swept wings help at near-Mach speeds.

[@basilreid257]

This is the most up to date and fair assessment of the Korean air war I’ve ever seen brilliant!

[@ScottRagland]

best overall mig v sabre recounting, best combat strats n tacs history mig v sabre, veeery much appreciated your calmly understated presentation as much i did your veeery high production values, of imagery, in writing, of research, of your most xlnt factual historicity. most comprehensive ever short treatment of the topic, as well, only enhance the value of your work here. Plz keep em coming like this one?...

[@RedWrenchFilms]

@@ScottRagland very kind, thanks Scott!

[@sterneno1107]

For another episode of "dogfight "a closer analysis of the me 262s performance would be nice.

[@_personoid_5897]

I'd love to see a serious look at the 262 beyond "muh German wunderwaffe" or "muh rushed R&D"

[@matydrum]

Dangerous, lot of accidents, engines so sensitive to fire and flame out that you could barely touch the throttle once airborne, engines that would barely last more than 8 hours before having to be swapped out. Long take off but even longer approach, taking ages to slow down, which got many planes shot down and pilots killed because allied fighters would wait for them to land, so valuable fw 190 d had to waste time protecting me 262 landings. Could not turn with allied fighters without bleeding too much speed and getting shit down with their bigger turn radius. Only thing it had was its top speed. Good armament but hard to aim because of low velocity.

[@dukecraig2402]

Oh yea, just what we need, another documentary on the ME262, as if they're so rare and it's such a mysterious aircraft. There's been more documentaries on that thing than the number produced.

[@30AndHatingIt]

But if the war had lasted a few more months, the 262 would have turned the tide!!! *ignores the P-80 with better performance than the 262 that was only 2 months away from being put into full combat duty*

[@kitharrison8799]

Great video and thanks for the No Guts No Glory link 👍

[@elkrumb9159]

Poor B-29s got uptiered

[@krisgreen6097]

Very refreshing to see a young lad make a documentary like i haven't seen in ages. All correct and intresting information.

[@RedWrenchFilms]

@@krisgreen6097 Thanks Kris, glad you enjoyed :)

[@rob5944]

The engines supplied by the British had a caveat, in return for grain I believe. Ed Nashs' Military Reviews goes over it right here on KZbin.

[@jnajjar2687]

OMG, a human being narrator, what a nice idea. Excellent video btw, I’m gonna check out some more of your videos. I’ll probably subscribe by the end the night 😆

[@dukecraig2402]

Isn't it refreshing?

[@cameronnewton7053]

Average KZbin shorts experience: >open cool looking history video > Sh*tty AI voice > Leave ...

[@RextheDragon881]

BEST explanation for swept wing ive ever experienced. Thank you. Overall great video. Thanks for making it

[@wheelbasemedia5814]

Really enjoyed the detailed explanation, thank you for posting. My suggestion for dogfight comparison would be the F-14 vs. the Mig 21. The F-14 was flying at the end of the Vietnam war, although the two planes never faced off as far as I can tell.

[@hectormonique2166]

Excellent work! Very tight and without bias, both excellent planes without a doubt, the losses however will always be a topic of discussion but I share your calculations and analysis, very good and the best I have seen!

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Oh wow! Thanks so much Hector. It means a lot to get comments like these.

[@MrKruz3]

Great video. Rarely at the end of the video to I have all my questions answered. Great job. Super thorough.

[@Danerraz0301]

Oh man please do more of these. Amazing job with the visuals, love your narration and great with the data

[@pimpompoom93726]

Excellent video, one of the best summaries of this jet vs jet conflict I have seen. Subscribed.

[@pimpompoom93726]

The inferior Mig-15 gunsight can't be over-emphasized, it was a MAJOR shortcoming of the MIG. An effective gunsight means everything for dogfighting. Combined with the low muzzle velocity/low rate of fire cannon, the Mig was at a significant disadvantage to the Sabre.

[@Martonosaur]

Great video! It's always nice to see some appreciaiton for Korean era jets. I suggest you make a video about the F-4 Phantom and the Mig-21, as in my opinion they don't get as much love as they deserve

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

I’m glad you talked about the influence the Nazis and the Ta-183 had in both the design of the F-86 and the MiG-15. It’s a bit of a hotly debated topic within the aviation academic field, but the Ta-183 arguably influenced the designs of the F-86, F-84, MiG-15, and even the J29. Both sides argued that it was an indigenous design and an example of convergent engineering, but when you look at the design blueprints of the Ta-183 you really start to wonder if that is so. Something else that should also be pointed out is the invention of the jet engine. Obviously the Americans and the British got their first jet engine designs like the Rolls Royce Nene straight from Nazi designs like the Jumo, but the Soviets are much less talked about. In a foolish move by the post war Labour government, the British essentially gave much of their jet engine secrets away to the Soviet Union. Stalin himself even remarked “what fool would give away his secrets?” And that was how the Soviets reverse engineered the design of the Klimov Vk-1.

[@catinthehat906]

Yep, Rolls Royce selling Nene Jet engines to the USSR in 1947 allowed the Soviets to reverse engineer and rapidly catch up with jet engine technology. A stupid decision by the UK Labour government and marxist sympathiser Stafford Cripps that undoubtably cost lives in Korea.

[@divingfe]

I think the famous Frank Whittle, did the most for initial jet engine designs for the Brits and the Americans, well before the war was over. Inspecting the German designs certainly helped refine them, just like with the aerodynamic aircraft designs.

[@cliffbird5016]

Britian had jet fighters in 1933 long before germany had them. But they were never released for action and kept as a secret weapon that didnt get used. 2 squadrons of Gloster whittles were fully trained by 1934 but lack of jet fuel meant they could not train very often or be used in combat. The Gloster metior was released for action though in 1944 but limited sorties due to jet fuel shortages. Britian also had the atom bomb in 1933 and never used it and had to teach the yanks how to make them. Britian only had the resources to build 1 atom bomb so had no choice but to let the yanks have the plans on how to make them and sent scietists over to show them how to build it as the germans who they took to build it didnt have a clue what they were doing and made it wrong. However in 1945 1 Lancaster was loaded up with the atom bomb and was on its way to drop it on Tokyo but got recalled 2 hrs from target as Japan had surrendered. 2 weeks later USA dropped its 2 after japan had surrendered. To this day only the USA has used atomic weapons against another country but Isreal is always threatening to use theirs against Europe if Europe doesnt allow it to do what it wants. Same as the USA threates to nuke NATO countries if a country tries to leave NATO.

[@catinthehat906]

@@cliffbird5016 You are off your head- the first Gloster Whittle didn't fly until 1941. The idea we had 2 squadrons of jet aircraft 7 years before the Battle of Britain that were never used is science fiction.

[@johannesfeigl5309]

​@@catinthehat906that Britain had squadrons of jetsready in 1941is not plausible😮

[@insertfictionalnamehere]

Absolutely great type of video, of course I do look forwards to dogfights video like these, I would also love to see other vehicles such as tank on tank.

[@christopherjenkins2373]

Very excellent video! You made technical information much easier to understand. I wish you did naval history as good as this aviation video. Keep up the great work!

[@davidwright7193]

So the Mig 15 was successful in its primary mission (preventing the use of B-29’S and other heavy bombers in daylight raids) and the F-86 failed in its main mission (preventing B-29 losses). The use of just Mig-15 Saber kills seriously distorts the overall operational picture significantly. If you were to look at just Hurricane-me109 or Spitfire-me109 kills you would think the Luftwaffe won the Battle of Britain. You also need to take into account how the US classify losses which means that an aircraft damaged in combat which crashes trying to return to base is often counted as a landing accident or mechanical failure rather than a combat loss.

[@RedWrenchFilms]

@@davidwright7193 I use these numbers because these are the numbers we have! There is no way of knowing now, 70 years after the fact, if a Sabre crashed due to mechanical failure, pilot error or battle damage. I caveated all the stats by saying both sides overestimate their kills and naturally both sides want to underestimate their losses. The same, I’m sure, goes for the Soviet and Chinese losses in this period. I also do say that the ratios do not take into account American strike aircraft over this period - but if I am making a video discussing the MiG and the Sabre, naturally those are the numbers I focus on! I made this video largely to dispel the myth that the Sabre was vastly superior and try and give some context to that 10:1 kill ratio people like to tout. But I can only use the numbers I have, and display them as honestly and as transparently as I can.

[@KrGsMrNKusinagi0]

The B-29 Superfortress named Command Decision of the 28th Bombardment Squadron, 19th Bombardment Group. Shot down five MiG-15 fighter jets using her defensive guns... Nevermind the fact that the mig 15 operated mostly out of china and stayed near the border often to avoid being chased down and taken out by the F86 etc.. Fleeing back to china was an easy way out from battle. Also most the pilots were russian or chinese to begin with the minority being north korean actually

[@wanyelewis9667]

​@RedWrenchFilms They weren't "vastly superior", but they were still significantly better, particularly the "E" version.

[@getgaijoobed6219]

31:57 Po-2 in top tier Warthunder moment

[@jameswilson2815]

Extremely well researched and presented with video. Thank you for your work.

[@proparanoid]

USAF Salute for a well done and informative vid, one answering many questions I've had for years.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

The Mig was not a fighter jet made for fighter on fighter dog fight. The Mig was a anti-bomber plane with the guns it carried. The Soviets needed to have a version with 12.7mm machine guns to go after Sabers with the cannon equipped Migs going after the bombers.

[@wanyelewis9667]

This. Those six 50 cal machine guns, with a r.o.f of 600 rpm and concentrated in the nose, were perfect for dogfighting. On the other hand, those big, slow, heavy cannon on the MiGs were designed for big, relatively slow non- maneuvering targets....bombers. Their low rate of fire, slow muzzle velocity, and arching trajectory were wholly unsuitable for use in dogfighting. If a MiG pilot, even an experienced Soviet pilot, won in a dogfight with an F-86E, it was almost pure luck. The UN's disgraceful, self-imposed rules of engagement prevented them from utterly dominating that war.

[@quan-uo5ws]

@@wanyelewis9667 what a massive load of horseshit, dogfights arent won by spraying and praying, they are won by getting on the tail of a plane and shooting them down, which is not that hard to do with the MIG-15s cannons considering that they were in the nose of the aircraft and they didint need to account for convergence. the fact that you think that an MiG-15 can never win against an F-86 just shows your bias.

[@wanyelewis9667]

@quan-uo5ws Calm down there, nancy. It wasn't about the planes; it was about the guns. Those cannons were never designed for dogfighting. The Russians themselves said as much.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

@@quan-uo5ws let me guess you play war thunder so are an expert.

[@quan-uo5ws]

@@SwordFighterPKN yeah, quite funny considering that in war thunder the 50 cals are much better, however unlike in that game IRL dogfights arent constant 9G turn fights. I do not claim that the cannons are better for dogfighting, but saying that any F-86 downed is "pure luck" and "because of muh UN rules of engagement" is just bad faith arguments. Especially since the commie rules of engagement were even worse...

[@miquelescribanoivars5049]

The discussion about the statics surely won't get heated 🤣 I'll start by mentioning that focusing only on F-86 to MiG-15 combat statics kind of underscores that the main point of bringing the MiG's to the theater was mostly done to try to halt the strategic bombing campaign by the B-29's (which sort of worked) as well as the attacks by tactical fighter bombers on PLA supply lines and NK infraestructure (which they never succeeded to stop). Edit*: Yeah there is quite a critical flaw with the research in the Video, the data provided in Soviet and Chinese declassified documents of the Korean War is for *Operational losses* which includes both losses in combat (not just to Sabers, but also to other aircraft types, AAA, manuevering accidents, ...) as well as take-off, taxiing, weather and mechanical related accidents. Therefore comparing it to reported aircombat losses on Sabers (which let's not forget, are likely higher than the official count, which I've seen has been mentioned in the video) is incorrect, this data should only be compared to Saber losses of all cause (250 for the USAF + 6 SAAF). IIRC we really don't have actual air combat losses statics for any of the MiG operators, you'd need to go case by case trying to match USAF (plus USN, RAAF, ...) claims with known operational losses to really get a closer match and even then chances are we just don't have enough data to know the proper exchange ratio.

[@DonWan47]

The Sabre is a beautiful jet. Sleek and purposeful.

[@jeffbenton6183]

I got so excited seeing the title card for this one - I grew up watching History Channel's "Dogfights" as a kid!

[@dcw56]

Thank you for such a valid and precise episode. I know you have a lot of research in this video!. Thanks much!

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@king_tiger5263]

Great video as always! Would love to see more comparison videos like this when you get the chance.

[@patrickpirzer4080]

Very good retrospective. In the documentary series "Dogfights" was a lot about the air war over Vietnam. A comparison like this one here between the F-4 Phantom and the MIG-21 Balalaika (NATO code name: Fishbed) would be nice.

[@Zoey_the_Rat]

Refreshingly competent and comprehensive aviation video!

[@PiggyBankBurglar]

great video! loved the animations

[@craigfitzpatrick4810]

Red has really stepped up in this area. He’s just an all round talented guy.

[@malithaw]

Great video and thanks for drawing logical conclusions at the end instead of just showing the stats like most people do.

[@francisbusa1074]

I really enjoyed this video. In depth comparison and some good documented history.

[@bavarianbaron]

So indepth. Earned a sub for sure. I'd love to see you break down Vietnam aerial combat like this. I've heard so much contest over the general outcomes there.

[@renevanderkraats224]

Beautiful documentary. Well-paced, and interesting subjects and data. The aerodynamics explanation is really good and easy to digest.

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Thank you so much Rene, this is really kind!

[@vumba1331]

The Sabre designers nicked a couple of key features of their aircraft from other designers. Firstly, Willy Messerschmitt's use of self opening slats as used on the 109 and 262 and secondly, from the Poms the use of the stabilator for maneuverability on high mach aircraft, which also solved the trans-sonic tucking problem.

[@fatmanfaffing4116]

Very well made video; one of the best I've seen on the topic and air warfare in general. Liked and subbed.

[@time.5316]

Very well done presentation. Just subscribed. Looking forward to viewing more of same kind of content.

[@cobytang]

YES!!!!!! MORE OF THIS SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@owenschulz9504]

Love this style of video

[@tedparkinson2033]

Would love more dogfight videos! You actually get into the nitty-gritty of things like month by month and pilot training, as opposed to most who purely contrast stats! Give me my F-4s vs MiG-21 vid. I wanna hear Olds by name, ya hear?!

[@nickmitsialis]

I'm sure it will be interesting as the ratio swung quite a bit during the war from the heavy MiG Losses from the Robin Olds inspired tactics (and the presence of large numbers of well trained fighter jocks in the Phantom cockpits) and the NVAF's efforts to match 'mass with mass', to the rotating out of said experienced pilots and the new USAF policy of 'all pilots being rotated into fighter jets-even those who spent most of their time flying transports, tankers or bombers and later the USAF 'de-emphasizing air to air combat maneuvering because it was considered too dangerous, during the time between Rolling Thunder's end and Linebacker's beginning; this was coupled with the NVAF beginning to use MiG21 as interceptors (one high speed pass, fire your atolls and then head for home at high speed)

[@rogergadley9965]

You asked for suggestions for future planes and their uses. This wouldn’t be dogfight battles, but I was a combat Marine on the ground in Vietnam and F-4 Phantoms flew close air support for my unit to great success a number of times. They were very welcome in a tight situation. In fact I developed a great affection for that aircraft and to this day the mere sight of pictures or video of an F-4 triggers a warm feeling in my heart. So, I suggest a video about close air support.

[@pyadav285]

Great video. A similar one on the Mig-21 please!

[@J-M-F-8]

Great video, however still looking forward to the second Cobra video :)

[@lightbox617]

"Why do they look so similar...?" Because this is a combination of physics and metallurgy. There is only one choice if you want to make your materials come up to match your physics. Thank god for chemists. I was born in 1948. When I was a pre teen in the 1950.s, I was saving to buy Revell model airplanes for 1.98. I never could afford one of these and even in the late 50's, the MIG model was available but the F86 was not.

[@MostlyPennyCat]

The trailing shockwaves generated during transonic flight are also what can cause the control surfaces to become ineffective, frozen or, terrifyingly, _inverted_ 🤢

[@nichaaa.l]

One of the best video about air combat over Korea. I curious what other 12 loss of F86 in aerial combat that didn’t cause by Mig-15?

[@sniffdogg420]

i really need to read more about the korean war. great video, definitely would love to watch a followup on the vietnam war.

[@PeterMuskrat6968]

The Korean War hosted by Indi Neidell is exactly up your MiG alley! Similar to the World War I and World War II in real time channels, this one covers the war week by week.

[@plainkiller0136]

Great video man! You should do a comparison of the German fighters of WW2 to the soviet ones next!

[@paulelwick1437]

The video I have waited years for!

[@OutsideTheTargetDemographic]

Incredible step up in editing and animations. Congrats on 100k soon. 👏

[@KapitanPoop]

GREAT VIDEO! Keep up the good work! Would love to see a 1942 Bf-109F and early Fw-190 vs allies video, where the Germans enjoyed a brief period of air superiority.

[@cadenbigler]

Amazing video!

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Glad you think so!

[@jaumetdepalma5347]

excelent video. good image, tecnical and historical data.. and great great narration . 😃 regards from Mallorca, Spain !

[@1joshjosh1]

This was so good I wish it was a half an hour longer. Good video

[@adamesd3699]

The Mig-15 was a great plane, but it’s two biggest weaknesses were so obvious that it’s bizarre they weren’t corrected for years: The inferior optics and the mis-match between the 23 mm and 37 mm guns. You could may excuse the optics issue by saying they didn’t have something better, but the 23 mm/37 mm issue should have been corrected quickly. They finally fixed this on the Mig-19 by putting in three very good 30 mm guns.

[@spartanhockey1380]

A video on some WW1 biplanes and triplanes would be cool. I'd also like a video on Israeli fighters during the Six-Day War and Yom Kippur War.

[@iain075]

As my GCHQ father quipped about the proliferation of wing fences on Soviet fast jets : "it's to stop the airflow defecting".

[@petervollheim5703]

Wonderful video. Much thanks!

[@thejdmguru621]

My great uncle flew a CL-13 during the Korean war, I still have a picture of him and the sabre with its characteristic slanted flag marking on the vertical stabiliser

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Was he RCAF?

[@babboon5764]

Fist of your videos I've watched Its well researched & balanced - So I've subscribed 👍

[@franklee3800]

Great vid mate. Very well made.

[@tandemfandom1]

very solid explanation of the technical aspects!

[@rm5902]

Excellent Great resrarch Great film Great explanation

[@kennethmorrison7689]

Mig 15 was beautiful! That tail spectactular like that of a peacock...

[@phippsa3]

For those of you commenting that the x6 50's were superior to the Migs cannons. Are you serious? Theres a reason every country across the globe went to cannon armament post WW2.

[@porcupinepudding8174]

That cannon had a very limited amount of rounds available. Besides the Sabre was also used extensively for ground attacks/ strafing.

[@anno-fw7xn]

great video would love this for other battel from the cold war time frame!

[@bradenhagen7977]

Both absolutely excellent aircraft flown by great pilots and designed by very smart engineers.

[@grimassassin9722]

There was also the research into the me262hg 2 and 3 which researched the affects of certain degrees on the wings. The hg2 had 35 degree while the hg3 would’ve had 45 degree wings but was never made due to the war ending before they could along with other changes while the hg 2 either was destroyed in a bombing raid or crashed during takeoff due to to engine failure

[@Itstakoma]

This is history channel level of production, videos like this make me think youtube is the new television lol

[@RedWrenchFilms]

@@Itstakoma that’s really kind! Thank you 🙏

[@spinnetti]

Fun.. Took a picture of my kids at that exact spot at 1:55

[@gabork.8715]

Interesting video about the Mig15 vs the Sabre F-86 and how the outcome of the conflict was summed up here! Also shows the effort made to educate new flying personel just the same as today to educate F-16 pilots in a short time in the middle of a conflict. Also the fact that Soviet and Chinese pilot flew clandestinely on the North Korean side in a conflict of North Korea trying to take over South Korea shows how eager the communist were to expand communism in Korea peninsula and thereby risking another world war. However the UN mission stood up to the communist aggression to the point that the South forces military leader, Douglas McArthur, wanted to use nuclear weapons to stop the North Korean onslaught. It did not come to that, and they found other solutions to stop the North Koreans.

[@sage5296]

I would absolutely love another episode in the series about the vietnam dogfights you mentioned. If you make that I will absolutely watch it

[@1944Jakob]

This is a very good presentation.....Thank you