Mike D'Antoni explains the origins of "small ball" | Enhanced podcast

In this segment from the Thinking Basketball podcast, Mike D'Antoni explains the origins of Phoenix's Seven Seconds or Less offense that revolutionized the league, the idea of multiple "point guards" on the court, and the tradeoff of playing Amar'e Stoudemire at the center in Steve Nash's 2005 MVP season.
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Twitter: @elgee35
Ben Taylor is the author of Thinking Basketball, a Nylon Calculus contributor, creator of the Backpicks Top 40 series & host of the Thinking Basketball podcast.
Stats courtesy:
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Footage in this video is owned by the NBA and its partners. It is intended for critique and education.
#ThinkingBasketball #podcast

[@onelove2230]

I found Mike’s perspective on point guards to be very interesting . I don’t think he wants all his players to be literal points guards but he wants them to be able to organize an offense and be the coach on the floor.

[@JulioLeonFandinho]

As he implied, he learned that during his days in Italy as a PG, in Milan every player could organize the team in some way, him because he was the guard, McAdoo attracting defenders, Meneghin with his leadership, and so on... D'Antoni was taking notes

[@topshelfdustin3060]

Not every player is always going to be able to be the primary ball handler, but as we saw with Jokic. Anyone CAN be a point guard with the ball in their hand if they have that ability. And you absolutely want 5 guys who can do that. It just makes everyone better.

[@JulioLeonFandinho]

@@topshelfdustin3060 You don't want 5 guys wanting the ball, definitely, and I don't think D'Antoni was saying that

[@topshelfdustin3060]

@@JulioLeonFandinhonah you want 5 guys who can create with the ball so that when ANY of them have it, the other 4 know by moving off ball they can get the ball back in a better place to score.

[@JulioLeonFandinho]

@@topshelfdustin3060 ah, when one have the ball and the others MOVE to provide passing options. That idea I aproves, I was thinking about 5 guys wanting the ball and just waiting for it

[@MiguelLopez-kc5ww]

one of the best single basketball podcast interviews ever

[@jrniels]

For me, it’s No Dunks (Formally The Starters, Thinking Basketball, Through the Wire (in no particular order)

[@TRXSTA38]

@@jrniels Maybe you missed the "interviews" part.

[@BMbucky1]

This comment made me stay

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Y'all such butt kissers

[@exiledknight3961]

One of the best offensive coaches ever.

[@dereksupernaut]

i thought he let the PG run the offense, what is his contribution; Nash & Harden were already top players before D'Antoni??? the Suns players from '05 claim it was Steve Nash in preseason workouts who was pushing the ball & making it clear if you liked running it was time to ball... if the D'Antoni knew what he was doing why did he start a traditional line up for game #1 with Stoudemire at PF in '05, then didn't shoot enough threes in the playoffs v Spurs (look up the stats if you don't believe me)... he just got lucky because his Euro-style jived with the '05 rule changes, not because he was a genius and knew how to adapt to the new rules; had the rules stayed the same he would have been like Don Nelson in the 1990s playing small and winning nothing... fax!!!

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Yawn

[@joelmendozajr01]

2018 rockets were the closest team to beating the healthy warriors with durant...

[@Giorgos-ee5kn]

If CP3 didn't get injured in last 2 games, they would be evntual champs imo

[@RefRed_King]

​@@Giorgos-ee5knWRONG IF THEY DIDNT CHOKE 27 THREES

[@makima2883]

@@RefRed_King wrong, if the refs called fair fouls the entire game they would have won game 7, I still remember eric gordon getting sandwiched mid air and there was no call

[@JulioLeonFandinho]

and god it was awful to watch that team

[@t4d0W]

Sure it was close but Draymond still called it right. Just weather out Harden and the Rockets team that is trying to play the math but doesn't have the quality shooters to really force the issue in a 7 game series. Which is why the Warriors came out on top late in the series.

[@SSJRome]

The NBA is what it is arguably primarily because of Mike D'Antoni

[@tippylosojos]

Don Nelson

[@maartenvz]

If only Chris Webber would have been a little tougher we would have already seen small ball in 1995, that team had so much potential, what a waste

[@darrengordon-hill]

And that's why it sucks

[@louroc425]

Because of his experience in Europe. Because there was a place where ideas can be tested and flourish.

[@1vaultdweller]

@nkosiamakosi7078 He maybe the originator but D'Antoni is the one who took it further and made it mainstream

[@TheyreStillOutThere]

This was my favorite team growing up. There was nothing like them at the time and they were electric. So fast, so athletic, such great shooting. They were also very frustrating at times with the bad defense which really hurt them in the playoffs. They got so close to going all the way a couple times. Steve Nash is probably my favorite player of all time besides MJ just because of those crazy Phoenix teams. God, to go back and see just one more game with that Nash/Marion/Amare squad. It was beautiful.

[@lukealbert8539]

Mike’s perspective on ball movement and positional it’s sounds exactly like what OKC is trying to build.

[@maartenvz]

I feel this is the exact philosophy that sam presti is following with his build of okc: playmaking is key

[@AnacondaHL]

back during SSOL rate stats and efficiency stats were still poorly understood and far less used. They got a lot of unfair criticism over bad defense because it was always discussed without context of pace, but SSOL defense was actually decent to serviceable.

[@spiidey1]

The Suns were always in the middle of the pack in defensive rating and other team defense stats. If they had a good, mobile defensive big like a Tyson Chandler or Joakim Noah, they might have reached the Finals.

[@t4d0W]

@@spiidey1 It really came down to matchups. The defensive numbers being decent is good in the regular season when the offense just overwhelms teams on a nightly basis. But in the playoffs you can't really expect to do that when certain teams are more than prepared to adjust and have the talents to do so. That is why the Spurs found themselves winning out the West in the 2000s because the grinded out other playoff rivals better.

[@blacknetsmed]

The only reason their Defense looked "decent or serviceable" was because their Offense was so dominant which made Defense look as if was decent, but teams would blown so early it had an effect on the SSOL Suns' Defense Ratings.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

No it wasnt

[@kevinle9953]

it’s crazy how ahead of the game he sounds even now

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Oh shutup

[@johndenver7035]

As a fan who got very into the game in the early 2000s I very much enjoyed watching this evolution. Steve Nash is still my favorite all time player and I'm not even a Suns fan. The guy played with so much control but so freely at the same time.

[@dereksupernaut]

plus, he won 2 MVPs without being able to guard anyone and playing below the rim on offense making it clear the NBA had devolved into a Euro-Boys league... i am not sure he was better than Marion or Stoudemire in '05... fax!!!

[@Dimework]

@@dereksupernautYou might want to delete that garbage you just spewed

[@TRXSTA38]

Same. I was a Suns fan by proxy because I was a Nash fan.

[@johndenver7035]

@@TRXSTA38 it was such a fun era to watch

[@TRXSTA38]

@@johndenver7035 Absolutely. They never won a title but no complaints. Things don't always break your way.

[@WESTsChannel]

love this episode

[@mrcoolkicks]

Great channel man !!! Just great basketball stuff, respect sir.

[@TheTEN24]

This is an awesome and insightful clip I need to listen to this

[@KimWe-a-xler]

I play this on Google Podcasts whenever I feel lonely. The 7SOL Suns were generational and transcendent, but Coach D'Antoni deserves his props for being one of the greatest offensive minds in the history of basketball.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

No

[@youngking0704]

a team of playmakers 💯 love the perspective this was insightful

[@airongmc6810]

Holy crap, you got d'Antoni on your pod! 🔥😮‍💨

[@DanMars27]

Joe Johnson deserves more credit

[@willhooke]

He was very important to that Suns team

[@MrClebophd]

Don't sleep on Shawn Marion. When Amare was out, the Matrix had to deal with a lot; rebound, defense, and running for dunks on offense. He was great, with a great motor and athleticism.

[@pesky19]

i need a full long video breakdown on nash on the suns from u guys

[@nephalm5357]

Phenomenal stuff

[@johndenver7035]

Spurs broke my heart rooting for this squad

[@keepitprivate91]

How does this channel still not have a million subs

[@joeblazey048]

one of my favorite teams ever

[@ifheavenwashuman]

Imagine if D'antoni would've said screw it, and coached in the NCAA. He'd have plenty of jewelry to show for his unique offensive philosophy..

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Yawn

[@ifheavenwashuman]

@@nonamewillbegiven6847 If Bob Huggins & Jim Boeheim can have substantial success through defensive systems, imagine what D'antoni could've done. Hell, the Princeton offense of the 1930's is still being ran religiously throughout college basketball. D'antoni would attract the talent and guys would buy into his high octane philosophy.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

@@ifheavenwashuman yawn

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

@@ifheavenwashuman yawn

[@southsidepr6573]

Thanks

[@svenko333]

Will there be a video about top 10 players in the league this season?

[@musicandmagic909]

HALF THE DEFENSE, DOUBLE THE OFFENSE!

[@brendanwisniewski9435]

SO happy TB is a very patient and active intervirwer, he definitely understands what it means to pick someone's brain. Of course its hard not to when you genuinely love what you're talking about.

[@serge6885]

3:20 That's why Denver was unstoppable... they have two point guards: Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokic.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

1d1ot

[@drwaffles317]

the mavericks really drafted 2 mvps in the same draft. thats just crazy

[@brianduru3753]

Huh? What two MVPs did they draft?

[@jamalwalker]

I think op thinks Nash was drafted by the Mavericks which is not the case ​@@brianduru3753

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Imagine liking this comment

[@jamalwalker]

@@nonamewillbegiven6847 people really don't know ball lol

[@alvin081988]

Imagine If Jokic was his Point Guard....I wonder how well if that Offense will be the same or different

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Shutup

[@djdrake111]

Notigang 😊

[@EmanCollins]

"Anytime you have the ball in your hand, you're the point guard." Wow, that is a BAR.

[@One.Zero.One101]

📌I have to admit, I'm a Lakers fan but I was cheering for Phoenix every time my team doesn't play. That team really captured my imagination. Watching them play is top class entertainment.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

You sound like a damn liar

[@THE.kevman237]

PRINGLES GUY!!!

[@phamawa]

Would really love to see Dantoni on the Knicks coaching staff, granted they need more shooters. Him and nash coaching brunson on offense would be amazing, imo.

[@frostok]

Hey look it’s my favorite coach

[@jackyparkchan7762]

Good offence, bad defence approach is interesting

[@zechariahcummings489]

🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@HLDN1989]

Really interesting interview. As a NBA / Dallas Mavs fan (since Luka was drafted) it is wild that the Mavs had a young Dirk (top 5 PF of all time) and Steve Nash (would go on to be 2 time MVP) and didn't resign Nash! What was the front office on during those times? If only twitter / Shams was around during those times!

[@dacrewordsmith]

Great question! (Resident Steve Nash-Mavs-Suns fan here). There was a lot hesitation (Mavs management) around re-upping Steve to that BIG contract... health & longevity issues such around his back/core being front and center to the discussion. The Mavs were able to pivot VERY successfully once Nash went to PHX. Their play style (even with Nash at the time) was a little slower, more traditional, and featured solid defense, deep bench, around a Nash/Dirk/Finley trio. The Mavs would go onto win it all with a Jason Terry/Jason Kidd/Peja Stojakovic trio of primary ball handlers and lean into the model they built on. Ultimately, having won the ring, Mark Cuban could rightly say he made the right choice in not keeping Nash.

[@parsifalK]

@@dacrewordsmith nah that ring was an entire roster rebuild later only Dirk and Terry were still around. The REAL vindication would have been winning in 06 after beating the MVP Nash in the WCF just two years after letting him walk. That series was a huge forgotten Mavs W and it's a shame that the finals were stolen that year.

[@dacrewordsmith]

@@parsifalK, THANKS FOR ADDING SOME FURTHER DETAILS THERE, JD! In re-reading my comment, I think I mashed together two elements, not making myself clear for other readers that are also familiar with Mavs lore ~ the Mavs pivoted from the trio of Fin/Nash/Dirk INTO their later iteration (after exploring the Devin Harris period...). There is a timeline involved with all this, of course. I'd like to think the point I was trying to share with @HLDN1989 still stands - Mavs let Nash walk, won a ring, and ultimately didn't regret it. I still dream of the glory days: The pairing of Steve Nash & Nick Van Exel was my EVERYTHING.

[@nocturne311]

​@@dacrewordsmithYou forgot to mention that Cuban gave Erick Dampier the money that he was going to give Nash.

[@dickduquesne]

I expected the words "Coach Dan Peterson", and "Banda Bassotti" to come out at some point

[@t-bonemendez9938]

Whatever it is, you need a big to win.

[@jingqi9106]

That cheap shot on Nash by Robert Horry might have cost the Suns their best chance at winning a chip.

[@AJ-iu6nw]

0:51

[@acupuncturekid]

No one ever asks this question about his system. If this system was so good why in the world did he only play seven players? If it was so good he should have had six to seven units developing all over the place running and gunning the entire game where there was no need for foul trouble or fatigue that is what really plug them in all those playoff runs where they would have an empty bench

[@gedog77]

You what I hear loudest here; “Dallas didn’t offer him a contract”, in the context of the Luka conversation this is just further cause for concern.

[@sidelineball1988]

MOMBASA WILDCATS

[@BadBart2217]

Can you imagine Baron Davis on those Suns teams? Damn

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

No since they already had Nash b0nehead

[@jamalwalker]

​@@nonamewillbegiven6847 Davis as 6th man would be great though they honestly needed a guy like that someone who could score off the bench consistently

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

@@jamalwalker Davis was a starter, not a bench player

[@tallkc2072]

@@nonamewillbegiven6847 don't mean he can't come off the bench, plenty of guys transition from starter to 6th man roles

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

@@tallkc2072 no they don't you I/diot

[@studio-ld8ix]

Hornets should have drafted scoot and hired mike.

[@cbrown940]

😳

[@PMcGJellyP]

Did you ask him to apologize for putting PJ Tucker at the 5? That let a genie out of a bottle that is still causing chaos.

[@Thanosdidtherighthing]

To be fair, Rockets had some major injuries that year

[@williepep-fy7qm]

60s Celtics originated “small ball”

[@darrengordon-hill]

"We're not gonna out-Shaq Shaq" I'M SO INSPIRED BY HIS COACHING... no wonderr he didn't win more!!!

[@makedredd299]

Top 5 small ball teams lost in 2023 Championship. - Nick Yoke 🐴

[@DrJohnnyJ]

"Small ball" goes way back. UCLA won back to back national championships with no player over 6'5". The Knicks won two championships with no player over 6'8". Height is overrated, especially with the three point line and the no-offensive foul line.

[@jmgonzales7701]

height is not overrated, most teams won with a big center.

[@jmgonzales7701]

what year is that when ucla won with no player over 6'5

[@t-bonemendez9938]

I completely disagree.

[@rilokiley3731]

height is not overrated when you see the average size of a basketball player in comparison to any other sport. lol

[@MrDiMES123]

Yeah same thing GS won with small ball so did Miami’s heat

[@_Gon_Gon_]

First

[@indyfan1831]

One hamstring away from being a champ

[@nanox4]

Injuries happened and the rest is history. They would've destroyed any East teams in the finals.

[@jamalwalker]

I don't see them beating the 05 Pistons, 06 Miami, or the 08 Celtics their best chance was 07 since the east was so bad that year

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

Nope

[@luisfuentefdz]

Suns vs Lakers playoff series were cleary rigged

[@karllorenzobabiano6328]

does this really matter? they can't beat the spurs playing their own game

[@KingOfMonsters2K]

I've been saying Dantoni is an overrated coach.His offense is revolutionary,don't get me wrong, but have you ever noticed every team he coaches they lose to the same team? His teams either lose to a defensive minded team (Spurs when he was in Phoenix/Houston, Pacers/Celtics when he was in NY) that can shut their offense right down or lose to a team that's doing the same offense, but just a lot better.(Mavs/Lakers when he was in Phoenix,Miami in NY, and of course Golden State when he was in Houston)

[@penemuelwatcher2378]

Nobody was beating the Spurs then

[@nocturne311]

Ironically Duncan started at center a lot in '07 so San Antonio was technically running a small ball system of sorts at times as well.

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

​@@KingOfMonsters2Khe wasn't with the Knicks in 2013

[@nonamewillbegiven6847]

​@@penemuelwatcher2378Dallas did and the Lakers

[@ry_an.]

But will it result in a championship? Unless your name is Curry, small ball doesn’t win.

[@marcochen9117]

the heatles played lebron at 4 and bosh at 5 for a lot of their playoff runs

[@BlueGrovyle]

​@@marcochen9117the funny thing is, imagine that prime version of LeBron as a small ball 5 in today's NBA. He'd break defensive schemes like Jokic does.

[@kingjaydex7464]

The Heat played small ball fam

[@justinholland6132]

They weren’t exactly small ball but some of the bulls team were small.

[@DmoneyTwenty]

@@marcochen9117 Battier at the 4 in some lineups too!

[@koolkai4299]

Ask him why he could never defeat the Spurs and his lack of belief in defense.

[@AlanMane]

This aint a live chat lil bro

[@willhooke]

Spurs had a better roster for sure 💯 Not sure why D has consistently been a problem Maybe because of prioritising O Even in the NBA, you still seem to need an all time great and a loaded team to win rings generally speaking

[@hulksmash54]

2-2 series in 07 and the suspensions changed everything.

[@darrengordon-hill]

DEFENCE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!! Dellavdova harassing Curry LeBron block on Iggy MJ stealing the ball from MJ OF COURSE loser offensive guy blames "calls going your way"... WEAKNESS!!! Play some defence!! ALL shots are "big". Or none are. PERFORMING IN PUBLIC IS HARD

[@firejaygaming8947]

I think a lot of ppl misjudge Mike he’s a great coach just always had unfortunate luck always did more with last wasn’t afraid to expriement

[@MC-kj7dy]

Don Nelson played small ball first

[@lunacy5510]

Bro, it's a progress. Doesn't matter who did it first. First it was done in Europe where Done Nelson observed it, then from him D'Antoni took some ideas and pushed it to the extreme levels, then Steve Gundy took certain parts of it innovated it around Howard, then Heat, then Spurs (especially due to Messina sharing his views with Pop), then Warriors and so on. The game and ideas constantly evolve.

[@MC-kj7dy]

@@lunacy5510 lol so you’re saying it started in Europe, the hypocrisy is unreal. Btw way you know nothing. It started with bill russell Celtics, Don Nelson saw small ball there first. Foh with your lies