Francis Scott Key Bridge COLLAPSE | What Happened and What Next?

[@bradjtrains]

I live about 2 miles as the crow flies from this bridge. I could see it from the end of my street and I've used it countless times. I've also had the privilege to be on a boat and go underneath. I didnt hear anything but the helicopters going to it, as they had to go over my house. This is heartbreaking and tragic. Baltimore is tough. We will get through it and appreciate all the love and support that is coming in. Nice video Mike. Great as always!

[@GeeEm1313]

I've been over and under as well. I have a fear of tall bridges, so I always hated crossing it.

[@Sacto1654]

It's mostly like the replacement for the Francis Scott Key Bridge will be a two-tower stayed cable bridge with massive bridge pier protection. It might be more akin to the Gordie Howe International Bridge (that bridge is scheduled to be finished in early 2025).

[@FameyFamous]

The Gordie Howe bridge towers are on shore. That seems like a good way to prevent accidents like this! Would it be feasible to build the new Key bridge that way?

[@jss27560]

@@FameyFamous I believe the span would be too long. The part hhat fell was 1500 feet if I remember correctly and there was still large amount of river on ether side.

[@coolmadmike]

The "new" (1987) Tampa Bay Sunshine Skyway Stayed Cable Bridge would be more analogous to what we might see in Baltimore. It will have a 20+ dolphin bumpers.

[@fishyswirlgaming5741]

This is America, its going to be widened

[@-Katastrophe]

Perhaps, but not simply because it's America, the structural demands of bridges have changed as well as the surrounding population in the past 50 years. If it would support the demand, maybe tacking on a rail line would be helpful.

[@Demopans5990]

@-Katastrophe I'm surprised there isn't one already. You would think there being a port, there would be a rail line as obviously not every shipment from a boat is local

[@fishyswirlgaming5741]

@@-KatastropheThat is a fair point

[@fishyswirlgaming5741]

@@-KatastropheRail is also just a W transportation method so I agree that adding a rail line would be a good idea. However, Baltimore is probably not the city that would do that. It is much more likely a city like New York or Boston would do something like adding a rail line to a bridge

[@bradjtrains]

@@Demopans5990 There is plenty of rail in Baltimore. Both CSX and Norfolk Southern have terminals further north. As a matter of fact, both railways have a coal pier with a ship in port so they are shut down too. They also have intermodal terminals and yards nearby.

[@boltstrike2787]

4:04 Minor mistake here, you got the names of the two tunnels mixed up. I-95 is the Fort McHenry Tunnel and I-895 is the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel.

[@louieatienza8762]

This is the problem with truss style bridges in general. There is no fail-safe. If one link on the truss fails, the entire system eventually fails. They are cheaper to build, but each one surviving now is a potential ticking time bomb.

[@MileageMike485]

Good point

[@blast_processing-music_disc]

Bridges like these need to be called trust bridges because of trust issues with them

[@TheNinjaDC]

I'm flabbergasted the bridge outside of one of the 10 busiest ports in America didn't have better support protection and more dolphins.

[@davidroddini1512]

Um dolphins? Wouldn’t dolphins avoid busy shipping lanes? 😉 🐬

[@cdsteig]

@@davidroddini1512 I wish the wink emoticon wasn't so small lol But I do find it interesting that water bollards are called 'dolphins'... wouldn't 'manatees' be more appropriate?

[@MicahThomason]

@@davidroddini1512 When I was kid in Port Aransas, Texas, I used to see dolphins (or porpoises, I don't know the difference) swimming and jumping ("frolicking", my mom would say) in the waves of big ships, all the time. (BTW I realize the OP is talking about barriers, not animals.)

[@kvm1992]

It shouldn't have protection if the bridge was built the right way. Ships are supposed to move without somthing in its way.

[@SemiSpook37]

As a local, it's weird to not see the structure as you're driving east on the southern outer loop of I-695. And honestly, as you saw from your trip over the bridge, it's not really heavily traveled by us locals, unless there was a backup at the Harbor or Fort McHenry Tunnels, mainly due to the tolls and the fact that I-695 through Dundalk is only 2 lanes in either direction. What the real killer of traffic is now is the lone remaining set of toll booths on the southern end of the Harbor Tunnel. The booths at both the Key Bridge and the Fort McHenry Tunnel were taken out over the course of the past 5 years or so, but they've only started the bidding process for the work at the Harbor Tunnel. That, combined with the reconstruction effort, is going to be extremely high profile over the next couple of years. Personally, I think the new bridge design should mirror the recent Harry W. Nice Bridge that allows US-301 to pass over the Potomac in Southern Maryland. The old bridge was a similar design to the Key Bridge, and likewise, was widened to accommodate the heavier traffic flow between Charles County, MD, and King George County, VA.

[@FadkinsDiet]

I went across that bridge exactly once. It was on a family trip to Washington dc. As we were approaching baltimore, my dad asked if we could take the bridge instead of the tunnel so that we could see more of baltimore. He said it would just cost 15 minutes. The view from the bridge was nice, but at the time i thought not worth the 15 minutes. On the way back we took the 895 tunnel.

[@ace20016]

Thanks for commentary Mileage Mike. You pretty much hit all the bases. I definitely believe the next incarnation of Francis Scott Key Bridge should come with dolphins to protect the bridge.

[@alanstevens1296]

There is a concrete pylon (dolphin) in front of each main pier, 4 in all. The ship turned at such a sharp angle that it just missed the pylon.

[@Angelic_Vanguard]

I live in Sparrows Point, the Key Bridge was far more than just a bridge for us. The symbolism behind the bridge meant so much to us. Losing the Key Bridge was like losing a piece of Baltimore's soul. We will recover, but it still hurts.

[@GabeBeach]

It was SO iconic for us... it's on a lot of our local art and regional branding... I was just at Key Brewing yesterday and it was so weird looking at the bird camera and not see the bridge

[@martininflorida8940]

Yet another excellent video from you, "Mileage Mike." Love your channel

[@LawrenceMarkFearon]

Lifelong Marylander here 20 minutes south. Most don't realize the collateral damage beyond the deceased. [May they Rest In Peace.] Appreciate the methodical presentation of the historic and strategic significance of Baltimore's port. The bridge wreckage spans the entire width of the waterway. The actual shipping lane is about 200ft wide where the Patapsco has been dredged to a depth of 50ft deep. The entire bridge zone needs a modern technologically resilient update with more physical barriers like the dolphins you mention for protecting both the beams and shipping lane combined with a visual early warning system on the deck. The entire harbor is on lockdown for the foreseeable future. Correct again, Baltimore was the closest East Coast port to the Midwest and the biggest automobile export and import terminal in America. Meaning every thing coming and going to and from Europe, Africa and the Middle East through Baltimore on wheels is halted. Expect price increases from shortages until freight can be diverted. Logistically Norfolk is looking like the emergency default port however they're not equipped to handle a Baltimore volume of rolling cargo. But we will come back bigger and better. Again appreciate your interstate infrastructure oriented data driven presentation of the Key Bridge disaster.

[@boomerbear7596]

Thank you for this touching tribute as well as the expert knowledge of both this bridge and the immediate impacts. I've seen several videos on this by now but this has to be one of the best. Good video Mike!

[@jeffm9770]

I don't think I've ever been across the Key Bridge. I mostly used the Fort McHenry tunnel, although I did go on the western part of I-695 once just to check it out.

[@therevdcanonrichardcwrede]

As usual Mike and excellent overview of the situation. I feel terrible for the families of the deceased, as well as those whose lives and work are negatively affected by this disaster. Having passed through Baltimore on numerous occasions driving between South Jersey and D.C., the attribute of the Key bridge that has me mourning is that it was simply a beautiful bridge! To look over to the east and see that graceful structure framing the entrance to Baltimore harbor was an inspiring sight. I will very much miss that old bridge.

[@rehabmax]

The most logical replacement is the design of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge over theTampa Bay. A plaque commemorating the workers who died with information about the original bridge 1977-2024 should be part of it. Extra shoulders for disabled vehicles . A wish list of a turnoff with a viewing area would be nice. A pedestrian walkway. Rethinking the area in general should be part of the discussion.. In Tampa Bay the old bridge approaches were turned in fishing piers and are quite popular. Don't just make it a bridge to whiz by the area. at 70 mph. Make it better than before

[@marcbyrnes293]

As usual, an excellent job Mileage Mike

[@earlewhitcher970]

Up to now I have only seen your videos of geography reports of areas of the country; I have always found those presentations to be factual as well as educational and moderately entertaining. This clip brought forth the factual and educational traits and was interesting as well. Thanks you for the superior work you do to present these engaging videos. As for what's next, there seems to be a tendency of the building of cable stay bridges lately. I would expect to see something like this be the replacement.

[@drelowe7]

Finally an expert opinion on this matter

[@blakebrown84]

This is so tragic, so I’m sadden that this really happened. They will have to upper size the bridge, so this stuff doesn’t happen again. Look at the Jacksonville bridge…they will have to expand the bridge up for the ships. It’s gonna take years to rebuild the bridge again.

[@TimEssDub]

I have not been to Baltimore, but anything that has to do with infrastructure interests me. I also wonder about the maintenance of the ship that ran into the bridge. I expect a cable-stay design similar to that of the upcoming Gordie Howe Bridge between Detroit and Windsor.

[@roadrunner356]

I live about 25-30 min from the Key Bridge site. I never got a chance to take the bridge before the collapse since I haven’t lived here that long and typically use the I-95 or I-895 tunnels to go north. A couple of thoughts on my end. 1. Like a few other commenters my money is on this bridge being replaced with a cable-stay bridge. That seems to be the common trend for large bridge replacements in the US these days. 2. Mike you may consider checking traffic starting this week 3/31. Many of the MD schools have been out on spring break so traffic may be worse starting this week and especially in the summer when people are traveling to the beaches and what not. I’ll be monitoring it just to help plan future long distance trips. 3. I’ll be curious to see the procurement package for the new bridges. I’m thinking that it will be a design-build contract to help speed up construction a bit and will have a ton of contractor incentives if they meet early deadlines. 4. The new Nice bridge over the Potomac (US 301) took two years to construct and I’m thinking this bridge will take at least that long or longer considering there are still supply chain issues. The original bridge took five years to build so I wouldn’t be shocked if that’s the initial timeframe MTA releases for the bridge replacement. 5. I’m still curious how much damage the concrete approaches have after the truss section collapsed. Will they be replaced? I’ll definitely be paying attention to that. Though I am a highway design engineer and not a bridge engineer so it would be pure speculation on my part. 6. Most importantly the workers who lost their lives have been heavy on my mind since this tragedy. This is the second major incident on the 695 beltway in two years (last year was the accident that killed six workers in the west side of the beltway. I imagine at some point early in your career that you spent some time in the field on an active work site like I did. Those folks who build our infrastructure put their lives on the line and I feel like they don’t always get enough credit. In fact mental health in the transportation construction industry was the keynote speech at the Transportation Research Board meeting in DC in January and I’ve been thinking about that since I listened to the discussion. Apologies for the long comment! I just enjoy having a constructive conversation with a fellow civil engineer.

[@Modeltnick]

I’ve never used the bridge but always used the BHT to get north and south. I remember when they opened the Key bridge and considered taking it but the tunnel seemed more direct. That I-895 route seemed very lightly traveled.

[@miked31784]

1:55 Eastern Daylight Time, not Eastern Standard Time.

[@u.s.6909]

This was a great analysis of this bridge incident. I would love to see the new bridge have provisions for rail transportation. The U.S. needs to follow examples like China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan or Switzerland.

[@metalslinger]

They'll probably build a massive Cable Stayed Bridge to replace this one. Either way, they need to put something around the piers in the future to keep ships from hitting them. The Dali weighed over 100,000 tonnes, which I don't think any bridge pier would be able to withstand. However, I think dolphins would do a good job of deflecting the ship away from the piers.

[@davidroddini1512]

Considering the mass of the Dali, I don’t think dolphins would have been much help. Even a blue whale would have been hard pressed to keep the cargo carrier away. 😂

[@metalslinger]

@@davidroddini1512 😅

[@matttrause6834]

The morning traffic (at least south of the 95 tunnel) is not significant, but the evening rush hour has been brutal. Backed up about 3 miles from the tunnel

[@metarus208]

thanks for the explanation

[@eddiethorne6461]

On another You-Tube channel they mentioned that the support columns that holds up the bridge should have been constructed better near the water and the Tug-Boats should have been escorting that large boat until it passed from under the bridge.

[@organicorgins576]

Tug boats at the Port don't escort ships in and out, 50 years of being there only this 1 incident. Tug boats as expensive and us the consumers will foot that bill

[@kvm1992]

it should be a tide arch bridge, Largest and longest in the world.

[@matthewmiller7207]

This is what I'd like to see in that spot. That would still, at least somewhat, keep the spirit of the old one. I'd say check the Lupu Bridge or the Mingzhou Bridge as examples. The latter of which even looks sort of like a modern Key Bridge.

[@dvferyance]

It was doable to replace the 35W bridge in a year because it's not so big and long. The key bridge will take 3-4 years to rebuild.

[@dccavalier]

Good recap video. Just one correction. I-95 is Fort McHenry Tunnel and I-895 is Harbor Tunnel.

[@bbowerful]

Been across that bridge multiple times either picking up at the port or dropping off or just driving hazmat over it. It will take alot longer than 2030 before that bridge is up and redone especially if unions get involved. Not saying non-union can do it better but it definitely would be cheaper. Cheaper is not always better especially on bridges.

[@Demopans5990]

And if the Boeing case means anything, cheaper always means valuing human lives at zero

[@JBDay-bd8cu]

It's the northeast. I'm pretty certain union contractors will be building this bridge back.

[@truthseeker8310]

You are a lot better to watch that the News media.

[@stephen_dmg2003]

i have never seen mileage mikes face, and i had no idea he was so good looking 🧍🏼‍♂️

[@lightning_dragons]

I was in Baltimore visiting my mom’s aunt and uncle when the collapse occurred, and that Monday, I went to Fort McHenry and saw the bridge in its last hours of life pre-impact, and the next day, my family (me, my brother, my mom, and my dad) were planning on taking the bridge to I-93 for Annapolis on my way to Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, and that morning my dad looked at the local news for my hometown, and saw the Key Bridge incident as the first thing he saw. It was a little scary, because if the collision happened just a few hours later than it did, I could have died. R.I.P to all the construction workers who didn’t make it out…

[@Jeffrey-sd6mb]

I was down in the area the beginning of March, but wasn't on the Francis Scott Key bridge.

[@kex78]

Now here’s the person we’ve been waiting for

[@unclestinky6388]

I'd be surprised if it was open to traffic by 2030. Possibly opened to limited traffic, if there is a way to do that

[@LtexprsGaming]

I have a feeling that both the Port and City of Baltimore will push for a taller bridge as thats a major reason why the port cant handle bigger ships. Im so sad that this tragedy happened. Me and my parents would take Carnival Cruises out of the port and seeing the FSK Bridge is a highlight whenever leaving or entering Baltimore. Really hope the new bridge will be just as iconic in the future.

[@alexcitron5159]

Great insight, sad for workers and Baltmore community. They have some similar looking bridges in NY area; are those in danger from a similar incident?

[@usmpiano]

Real quick - FSK did NOT compose the Star Spangled Banner. He wrote the poem only. The music was an old English bar drinking song.

[@AmericanBulldogsGaming]

Can you please look at US 401 in NC. It's getting a major upgrade.

[@keystonetuscanred4921]

With the new U.S. 301 toll way in Delaware completed, Using Delaware Route 1, U.S. 301, and U.S. 50 may be viable alternate for HAZMAT vehicles and over-sized vehicles.

[@SportsAnnouncing]

The Sunshine Skyway Bridge is not in Tampa. It connects St. Petersburg to Manatee County. Tampa is in Hillsborough. This is similar to saying the FSK Bridge is in DC.

[@MileageMike485]

Tampa metro. Pointless semantics. FSK is in the Baltimore metro. It’s like arguing that the Dallas cowboys are in Arlington instead of Dallas. The Skyway Bridge itself is actually in Hillsborough County if you want to get technical. Pay attention to the signs the next time you cross it.

[@roadgeek1961]

The question is are they going to tear down the parts that didn't collapse and make a wider bridge. The first part is to clean the channel. Redesign? Use similar engineering techniques used on the sunshine Skyway. Being an engineer yourself what do you see happening. Have a good one Mike.

[@WesternMDRailfan]

I was on a flight out of Baltimore on March 25 and I happened to see the Key Bridge less than 12 hours before it collapsed… 😢

[@MGVA1982]

The problem is that hte west side of 695 is heavily trafficked and constantly jammed already. Now it will be even more jammed, and have HAZMAT vehicles through heavily settled, heavily residential areas.

[@MileageMike485]

Yeah it’s going to be bad for a while.

[@boondoggle4820]

Yep, I thought about that too. The traffic on the west side of the beltway is awful. A trip that took 20 minutes could now take two hours if trucks have to drive all the way around the beltway during rush hour.

[@MicahThomason]

Three questions: Is the water salt or fresh? How deep is the water? Are there other ships stuck in the harbor?

[@earlwoodland8216]

The water is brackish.

[@samurai215]

The most amazing thing about this whole thing is that the city of Baltimore managed to shut down traffic. It was 130 in the morning. Who is the hero that saved who knows how many lives?

[@jss27560]

There was maintenance filling potholes while it was happening so they already had police at either end to block traffic.

[@earlwoodland8216]

@@jss27560 There is always cops nearby. They close the bridge all the time when there are high wind warnings.

[@bigj200016]

What I wonder is with the federal government picking up the tab, will it still be a rolled bridge or will this now provide a free crossing of the river. If it is free, then widening to 6 lanes makes sense as this would serve as a huge relief to the downtown tunnels.

[@MileageMike485]

They’ll probably still toll it I’m guessing. If it’s free then more people will use it to avoid the tunnels and that would impact the toll revenue on those routes.

[@organicsoulgumbo]

I drive my box truck through the tunnel all the time 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@lambo8961]

this bridge was just about to turn 50 in 3 years... rest in peace to all the victims involved in this collapse and I hope we can learn from this terrible accident.

[@jonathangat4765]

Good quick look at the tragedy and the ramifications. Thanks Mike.

[@ugiswrong]

Holy crap I didn’t hear about this

[@Space_isntScary]

1200 ft is BIG.

[@Minelaughter]

My morning commute involves me riding my bike on a short, tall bridge across 3 rivers. The only thing preventing me from dying is a small rusty fence, so finding this out did NOT help my fear of bridges 😭

[@captainsinclair7954]

I have thoughts on how the bridge's collapse will impact Politics, but I'm avoiding that rabbit hole. Right now, I'm just hoping that a good chunk of the production that goes into rebuilding the Francis Scott Key bridge comes from Maryland Jobs.

[@Earth_Number_12]

The boat company might be sued

[@MileageMike485]

That would be good. The insurance money can help pay for the replacement.

[@Earth_Number_12]

@@MileageMike485the new bridge is gonna take foreverrrrrr

[@scpatl4now]

Quite a few cars come into the Port of Savannah. I would say that traffic will increase

[@Dizarama]

So terrible seeing that collapse.

[@NintendoGamer2600]

Yes, I was dying to see this video made!

[@AnyM4jorDude]

For sure the bridge will be rebuilt with even more fortified bases and redundancy in span support.

[@tellthemborissentyou]

Maybe they should have asked the dudes who built the ship protection around those power pylons to build some around the bridge piers.

[@JPS47]

Nice shirt. Also I'm no engineer but I'm pretty sure a bridge, or a well built one, isn't supposed to collapse like that.

[@GabeBeach]

The second this tragedy occurred I was thinking "man, I hope Mileage Mike covers this." Us Bawdimorons appreciate you (although, only one time, you did accidentally get the Harbor Tunnel and the Ft. McHenry Tunnel mixed up lol). Thank you for your insight.

[@GarrettWorcester]

The elephant in the room would like to know if there will/should be plans to make the new bridge higher to accommodate taller cruise line ships that might want to port in Baltimore?

[@thesilverblack708]

When the Bridge does get rebuilt, I think it'd be foolish to rebuild it just as it was before. What I think it should have: 6 lanes for motor vehicles. With one lane each direction designated for HOV's. And a wide shared path for bikes and pedestrians, last bridge didn't have anything like that. Also on the pedestrian bridge, there should be small monuments indicating where each of the perished construction workers were standing when the FSK bridge fell.

[@shsav2012]

4:12 you got your tunnels mixed up

[@narutouusi-maki8483]

maybe a nice new Cable-stayed bridge like the one Gordie Howe is building out in Detroit.

[@chrism3784]

Even though the Federal Government said they'll foot the bill to rebuild *cha-ching* you think they will still go after that shipping company who crashed into it for money?

[@UHaulShorts]

I-695 WB should B da onlay HZMT option; bridge kwossang makes thangz a liabilitay

[@runninseason]

The Chesapeake bay bridge is nowhere near Baltimore. It’s in Virginia Beach. Baltimore is about 3 hours from here

[@MileageMikeTravels]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge is in the Baltimore metro (near Annapolis). The Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel is in Virginia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge?wprov=sfti1

[@ryantraingamer5]

Now everybody around the U.S is worried about there bridges now

[@GeorgeSchumpf]

Add this to the mounting costs of globalization. If we kept manufacturing at home instead of making our number one enemy "the world's factory," we would not be shipping and ships as big as an aircraft carrier with capacity to cause this much damage operated by East Asian emerging markets. Yes I know this was export, but the commercial ship size and ship traffic is the same regardless of direction of the flow of goods. Our worship of globalization will cost us more than it is worth...saying nothing about its carbon footprint. Lost US jobs Lost wages, corporate and tax revenue Lost manufacturing capacity, technical skills and experience in event if a world war Pouring our cash straight into the military budget of the Chinese Communist Party which has vowed to destroy us The cost of this tragedy pales in comparison

[@ArneAsada69]

Whatever the projected estimate price to rebuild, triple it.

[@Williefmradio]

Good video 👍

[@rolandogamez]

Thanks Mike, Now I can point this to 'that guy on Facebook" so he will be dumb enough to tell you why you're wrong!

[@ethanbiemer78]

Insurance should pay for it not the federal government

[@hank4504]

They say it’s 15 years to rebuild, so 10 years from now it’ll be another 20 and maybe it’ll be back open in 2045-2050

[@earlwoodland8216]

It 5 years to build the original bridge.

[@ironmen808]

How the hell does anyone pass the math for an engineering degree

[@caducoppini]

😍😍

[@demetriusmixon4141]

Thanx!

[@chiangui24]

First Comment. Nice Job.

[@Electric_Automation]

gov say, money money, money , money, money, moooooneey!

[@SantaFe19484]

I live a little bit under two hours from Baltimore. My sister used to live in Baltimore, and now I'm glad she moved away from there. But since she isn't into construction, I doubt she would have been on that bridge at that time.

[@coolmadmike]

$1.5 Billion + for the new 9,000+ foot bridge built by 2030. The operator of the ship will be blamed, and they will be successfully sued by their insurance company and go bankrupt. Right it down.

[@earlwoodland8216]

It is going to $3 billion. It might start off at 1.5 billion + but cost overuns will make it $3 billion.

[@annhenry793]

It should be anArch Bridge.

[@MasonWright1234]

I heard about it Mike

[@zunkman1]

6 workers - not 8, 2 recovered, 4 still missing - not 6.

[@gengarphantom6967]

2030? i estimate 2025 to be rebuild

[@truckermikemct1]

The new bridge finished by 2030? It better be finished and will be by the end of 2025.

[@davidpottinger987]

I already know!!!!!

[@MicahThomason]

Please tell me that's not George Floyd behind Mike. I'll unsub right now.

[@paulschumann560]

So you think George Floyd should have been suffocated by local police for $20?

[@zacharychasteen4650]

I think God is giving us a punishment, cause after we rejected Israel of the U.S. voting to do a cease-fire in Israel, the Bridge had collapsed after that had happened

[@capitalsign]

Total ignorance and. stupity. of people involved in Baltimore maritime transportation.. There. should been more protection. they should. had simple. suggestion box....

[@ItsTheCostanza]

Under our current president not surprised these disasters keep happening

[@ace20016]

Yep it’s the current president fault the MV Dali hit the Key Bridge 🙄 Political people are stupid -Non Political person

[@dozey1242]

*_"Are you telling me that a bridge just happens to fall like that? No! He orchestrated it!"_* 😂

[@worldsheaviestjamband93]

Did you hurt yourself reaching for that one? The current pseudo-political keyboard warriors are ridiculous.

[@rolandogamez]

Thanks Uncle Facebook! Knew you'd show up!

[@alanstevens1296]

The world has been blowing up since he was installed.