STOP NERFING FIGHTING GAMES : Max Rants

[@CoreAGaming]

Preach.

[@mesaquefranca1058]

Bingo babye

[@orlanzo2621]

Woah, Core A! Love your videos man.

[@GusNStuff]

You can get a hell yea on that one.

[@warmuzi4240]

I read that in the narrators voice

[@kaleidoslug7777]

This is a very high endorsement

[@Whit3WolfXArcadia]

How about improving the practice mode like teaching them how to play? Instead of nerfing the overall fundamentals

[@FuriousGorge]

Virtua Fighter 5 and Skullgirls had the best training modes in the genre and when was the last time you saw anyone excitedly talk about playing either of those?

[@Zeronigel332]

The thing is they did that for years, look at blazblue series with it tutorial, skullgirls, and other fighting games trying to tell you about things to know

[@user-fb4lp2sp2s]

I think Guilty Gear Xrd is the prime example of this.

[@tubamilk1]

Honestly because of its practice mode mechanic I feel that Xrd is the best.

[@thesch2867]

Havik Actually the game with the best tutorial ever made is Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution but yeah barely anyone outside of Japan cares about VF.

[@Grothe406]

Completely agree, as a casual player my self, I think devs should be focusing their efforts of better training tools and tutorials then compromising their core game. Don't lower the bar for me to come in, help me reach the bar!

[@jeremyroberts8822]

Grothe406 yea I agree. Fighting games desperately need character specific tutorials that start with the basics but eventually teach you literally everything. What your character does and doesn’t do best, matchups, what is and isn’t safe on block etc. it would make it easier for a lot more people to be able to get up to an atleast somewhat competitive level.

[@skeetsoldier]

@@PuddlesinZalem Every game should have a good training mode. These are quality of life problems that have been solved by game design ages ago. A standard needs to be set.

[@skeetsoldier]

The problem is that the devs don't understand their own game on a competitive level. They are casuals, too. Despite building the mechanics themselves, the whole of fighting games never been about the developer's intended experience. Even the first combo ever performed was a glitch.

[@Ghost_Text]

Tekken 4s practice mode had one mechanic Id wish theyd bring back where you have to do a particular move at least ten times or the screen wont advance. Bc its not just being able to do it, but also at the right time.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@skeetsoldier It's a sad truth that no matter how hard developers try to make a specific sort of competitive game, there will always be exploits that become necessary to succeed at high levels, a lot EXTREMELY esoteric, which means that tutorials, especially character-specific ones, can only ever go so far, but that doesn't trivialize trying. And a lot of them can be and have been adopted as good legitimate mechanics.

[@kunyro9120]

The man is out here giving presidential speeches about fighting games

[@RaycerkGamer]

That's why he loves G omg.

[@coughy6100]

11:43 sure is

[@Joe_Parmesan]

Is Max the American ambassador of fighting games?

[@Jankenstein]

He's got my fuckin vote, better than the rich dinosaurs we've had

[@rentaku2692]

"characters sell fighting games." Hell yes.

[@neazy9925]

@Charles Wolfanger tekken 7 as well

[@neazy9925]

@Charles Wolfanger akuma

[@maqpi8335]

Mortal Kombat!!

[@PipeRetrogamer]

Megaman sold me on smash bros. Thing is, i ended up playing Ike and Ganon 🤣

[@rightnut6270]

I can't stand a fighting game where there aren't real character in the characters

[@DaryusP]

It's not just fight game devs. All video game devs are doing this.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

In fairness, games nowadays have gotten way more complicated and manuals are being beat away, the latter trend I find unfortunate as it makes looking up missed and forgotten basic play information inconsistent. And even older games have had their suggestion snafus such as Sonic 3&K's infamous rocking barrels that accidentally deceive players about how they're supposed to be moved or Super Metroid's crumbling bridge that exists solely to force SOME use of Samus's ability to dash _without_ the Speed Booster. NTM that _holding_ of a button that doesn't clearly apply an effect on its own might not come to a lot of players' minds, which is how running in the old Super Mario Bros. games works, so you had to hope that rental or used copies came with good control explanations of SOME form. That a large portion of those players that HAVE figured out those sorts of things on their own mock those who hadn't shows how much often gets taken for granted in video gaming. And a lot of that complication _is_ fluff. But being unwilling to be complicated does necessarily stifle what sorts of good games can be made, and fluff isn't necessarily bad.

[@frakeyjones1336]

For all my beasts out there, let's keep it movin

[@in4mus85]

This is true too many games are lazy and want people to be good without putting the work in its frustrating

[@Champlo0oo]

Games in general are way simpler and "user friendly" than games of the past. They just have a shinier coat of paint. That is on purpose and they state this, in order to reach the masses and make people have the pseudo feeling of everyone being on the same playing field. They believe that this drives sales for games, which it does, however, the retention of communities is dwindling, because the hardcore leave the game due to everyone having the same skill gap. So there is no real reason to invest in the game beyond the base experience. Yes luck and chance should play a factor in games, but someone with 200 hours of experience, should not have an even advantage with someone who has ten hours. Personally, I felt the newer myself playing the newer versions of Tekken less and less for that very reasons I stated in this comment.

[@in4mus85]

Champloo amen brother

[@Shippoyasha]

I mean look at Tekken 7. It's one of the most complex fighting game engines and yet it still has a lot of appeal to everyday gamers while still having the depth for hardcore players. Many anime style fighters like Blazblue and Guilty Gear and Arcana Heart has ease of play options to go with the incredible depth for those who seek it. We can have both depth and widespread appeal.

[@Onishiro]

To a certain extent in Tekken's case. Movement requires more effort to learn though combos are pretty easy with the ~b and corkscrew systems.

[@liamg9334]

Melee is also like that. Party game with some of the hardest technical play ever. Fun for every audience.

[@wrequiem1727]

I was just going to use T7 as an example. I hear this and that about how "hard" it is... All fighting games have a start. I never understood how Tekken got that rep. It's objectively more complex than some fighters but I don't think that makes it harder. When you go online, most likely you're going to go against people on your level. There's always going to be someone worse and there's going to be a lot of people who are better. I suck overall but Tekken's difficulty is super overhyped to me. It might take more training than other games but yeah... (Also, before you correct me. I'm speaking fun factor not some tourney bs. I'm not looking to enter Evo or to master Tekken)

[@PolyverseCube]

Yet ArcSys just keeps dumbing down their newer games. I bet the next guilty gear will be a 2 button fighter with 4 directions (with the same models as Xrd, yet half the roster 😉)

[@boiz9552]

HardDropper Blazblu cross tag battle has been dumbed down

[@DreamStepper]

What sells fighting games is cool characters, the game mechanics is what keeps the player playing.

[@smashfam1]

*waifus

[@letsgitcrackin]

Jet Set Radiooo

[@micos3820]

DreamStepper Amen.

[@MuzikPimpinOGDOGCRISP]

Look. I'm SHIT at fighting games. But if MvC2 came out again I'm buying it.

[@drakyln7808]

SNK vs Capcom is my favorite fighting game, and I suck at it.

[@georgepascual1]

Amen. The greatest FG of all time

[@bogartgaming9283]

They recently gave you your wish Sir lol

[@FlurryJoe]

lol

[@kingdomsoul8968]

Fighting games are just awesome even if i am shit at them 😂

[@christophermccrea7133]

I agree. I'm terrible at fighting games, but there's nothing like the satisfaction of landing a combo youve been practicing for some time.

[@cas126]

Preach Max! I like fighting games, but I'm a filthy casual that plays for the fun of it and the story lines. But when I do decide to actually get gud, I enjoy taking the time to practice, look up videos for references (like yours) and whatnot. Part of the journey to becoming a skilled fighter is learning the process and performing it with surgical accuracy. Button commands become like a dance of the fingers that translate to cool combos and sick comebacks on screen. I endorse fighting games not baby-stepping players because the feeling of pride at being proficient is amazing.

[@linkashh]

Thats it dude, great post. The journey to git gud is the best part

[@MrGreen-hr8hg]

Well said nacho

[@zacharybreen8891]

Nacho I know mate sometimes I watch smash tubers videos to try and learn and get a character into elite smash still got like 30 to go

[@ashchisalleh1454]

One of rarest gamer IN whole section. Enjoy everything.

[@Ninjaman50]

@@zacharybreen8891 I have yet to get anyone in elite smash yet...but I really do wanna get better at Smash.

[@levyata8964]

Getting good at a game is the best feeling ever. When I first played Monster Hunter World I didn't know what I was doing, i chose the Bow because I thought it was cool and Kulu Ya-Ku handed my ass to me I thought "this game sucks!" Nowadays I have 800 hours on it and I die once every 72 hours. It's also my favourite game

[@theDiReW0lf]

Yeah well it takes about an hour to get better at Monster Hunter and about 1000 hours to get better at Tekken lol

[@argenisgarcia5982]

23 minutes of Max talking about Hitboxes, Mechanics and more? Sign me up!

[@remingtonpenaranda7762]

Hell yeah bruh

[@zestyfg]

Ya got Jebaited.

[@Seven7swords]

Characters sells fighting games. Characters more than anything. One of the first thing people look for in a fighting game is if their favorite character is back. MVC:I failed to meet sales expectations is because they thought "functions" could have their skins swapped. Soulcalibur 5 was selling crap because they got rid of and replaces fan favorite characters. How do game developers not realise that characters sell fighting games?

[@KingAllpha321]

Wrong custacters dude. If link from zelda was in SC5, it would have wold 2 million copies easily

[@Rich575]

Exactly that's why jump force was successful despite it having the worst mechanics ever seen in fighting game

[@lit_wick]

And why sports games do so well

[@analytixna6610]

Mvc:I also had to contend with my favorite fighting game: DB fighterz

[@ForzaTerra89]

This is true. I went back to Tekken for Tag tournament 2 because they put Kunimitsu back in the game and she was always my favourite character. In Tekken 7 she wasn’t there and I just saw some other female ninja character had been added I didn’t care about so I didn’t bother picking it up

[@wrexand]

*EXPRESSION* I'd argue that's what people like most about a fighting game. when you're hype about a mirror match (& i HATE mirrors) you know the game is designed well. when two players can play the same character however they want to, it really opens up a roster.

[@blackaymon]

DRA Renamon

[@Whurlin]

Watched this live. Max kept it all the way real with this. Beautifully explained.

[@CylonDorado]

I also watched the whole thing. So I can’t help but feel he undermined his point by pointing out how well MK vs. DC sold, lol. I rented that game, and felt ripped off.

[@xxGamerX-cc2ho]

Thank you for this video. The whole appeal of fighting games for me is the challenge and suspense. When things become easier it becomes less exciting imo.

[@dseanm21]

Mk11... definitely not MKX you fight tooth and nail for your wins over there lol...I miss being locked down in the corner 😣

[@ShadowSumac]

I like fighting games for gameplay and aesthetics. Challenge is unnecessary component to me.

[@memyselfi9576]

@@ShadowSumac dont agree but that's a valid opinion.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@dseanm21 Even as a filthy casual, I can see that Fatal Blows are RETARDEDLY busted; their INSANE power-GREATER than the 30% level that you need to fall to to access them in the first place and thus with the ability to deny others such access-combined with their relative ease to land and them only being consumed on hit make them basically punishment for not being dominant ENOUGH, forcing the early rounds of a match to be this weird-ass game of offensive chicken. It's the same problem that Splatoon's basic-fish Turf War mode faces-the early game tends to matter relatively little compared to the final moments-only worse.

[@dseanm21]

@@CarbonRollerCaco Couldn't have said it better.

[@nickclark1815]

The number one thing that sells me on a fighting game is the characters, not the mechanics, not "accessibility", the characters. If a character is visually appealing and has a cool personality, I'm probably gonna get that game. Other than that it's art style and sound design. Also parries they're super fun.

[@paradoxroli5819]

Absolutely agree with you. Why the hell im spending so much time doing Akuma combos in sf3 3s (fightcade) ? Because I LOVE his personality and play style. When i pick him , i feel like "NOW I AM MOTIVATED" (the time has come, AND SO HAVE I).

[@mattolstein2999]

I somewhat agree with this. I bought DBF because I love Dragon Ball and the characters, and the reason why I'll probably get the new MK is Spawn.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

My roomate said he was getting a Switch specifically because Banjo is being added to Smash Bros.

[@KD-wc4rs]

Nick Clark same for me I already know who my fav character gonna be before I even play yet

[@NeoKurow]

This is the very reason I never liked Third Strike and Guilty Gear. I just don't like how the characters look in those games.

[@mizore217]

PLEASE preach more on the modes part. Tekken7 specifically has the least amount for offline modes compared to the previous games

[@tuipulotulavaka1757]

Tekken 7 was good in many things besides modes and music. I mean thank goodness you can use old tracks, but damn, I can't stand the original Tekken 7 soundtrack sometimes

[@mizore217]

Tuipulotu Lavaka thought I was the only one who thought that. Don’t even get me started with the customizations...

[@joshjones9749]

Like I always say its a good thing the game is so damn fun online I forget there isnt much to do offline

[@robbie_azure]

Bruh Tekken 7s music pisses me off and ghost mode needs a return

[@tuipulotulavaka1757]

@@robbie_azure Harada promised a brand new mode was in the works so I wonder what it is

[@avengingangel917]

"Fighting games should be designed like video games." This says a lot with such few words. Mvc 2 remake, please

[@colmecolwag]

I don't think you can make Fighting Games designed like Normal Videogames while keeping the skill ceiling so high. If like, Batman Arkham had mechanics as demanding as a normal fighting games', reviewers would give it (justified) crud for being a complicated mess that doesn't move naturally that's a mess to control. Fighting games should be designed like Fighting Games... mostly, at least. There's room for the weird Smash or Arms and stuff out there.

[@Zangelin]

@@colmecolwag I mean if you have an Arkham game eesigned like that you just get Devil May Cry... which is way better?

[@kyyubii0510]

@@colmecolwag So, I understand what you're trying to say here. However, (and I'm sorry if this sounds rude) no one said anything about normal video games being designed like fighting games. They only said that fighting games should be designed *similarly* (please pretend that, instead of bold, it's italicized) to normal video games. And just in case anyone reading this doesn't quite understand this quote, what Max was going for was that fighting games are trying to make it easier for Casual/New players (Normies for all you Gamer Meme-Heads out there), but are instead making that game (for lack of a better way to explain this) bland, and not fully fun. And because of this fact, Expert players can basically take hold of all of these new mechanics, and even old mechanics that were left in, maybe even with new changes, and just make them into weapons and using them to kill off all the fun and enjoyment that Casuals are trying to brew for themselves, causing the Experts to just have a big ole Oligarchy over that game's fan/playerbase. Does this mean that that game isn't enjoyable anymore? Not necessarily. It's just that the Casuals will be too scared to play Online or in tournaments bc they feel that the Experts will cut their behinds off, throw them into pots, put a crap-load of seasonings on it, and feed the Casuals their own rectums, causing them to either a) quit doing anything with players with ANY kind of higher skill level than they do, or b) hide in their Mother's basement playing the game by themselves. I have more to say, but I should probably stop, as this is starting to look like some sort of TedTalk or somethin'. Thank you for reading, if you got this far.

[@colmecolwag]

@@Zangelin Eh, Devil May Cry doesn't really play like a Street Fighter or a Tekken much at all, control-wise. You got attack buttons that mostly make sense and got very specific defined combos (usually), a Gun Button that Guns Well, free open movement, and a lockon...as well as a built in learning curve that gradually introduces new tools as you go along. Just jump into a fighting game, you don't have that flexibility of movement or simple cancels into whatever-the-heck-you-want, you got a more stiff system with way more attack buttons of a vaguer purpose. A fighting game that's built like a character action game...is more like an Arena Fighter, like the Xenoverse or Ultimate Ninja Storm games...which are fun Video Games, but are not exactly a Fighting-ass Fighting Game. Open movement, universal systems, big story modes as you expand your moveset to do Bigger Things. Fun, but not exactly Fighting Game sort of fun.

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

MVC is dead, dead, dead. The mouse believe Marvel is worth more than Capcom can pay for it, and they want to cultivate their brand and such. Corporate ownership of all things is beneficial to all people!

[@matheusps92]

"SCORPMAN IS FIGHTING BATMION" Dood, Maximilian - 2019.

[@johnoneil9188]

The real question is why Max has a copy of Mortal Kombat vs DC on hand.

[@Shiratto]

One can never escape Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe…

[@SpeckyX3]

Bruh I low key almost screamed. When he pulled the game out horror appeared in my eyes. Never thought that will resurface.

[@Gamingwithgleez]

"This thing!" Sees MK vs DC In my head "YIKES!"

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

Ironic that he'd bring it up considering that it's proof that initial sales only relate to trust, not love. It's the Sonic '06 of fighting games.

[@WhayYay]

Carbon Roller Caco wouldn’t that be sonic the fighters?

[@knavenformed9436]

@@CarbonRollerCaco Unironically I enjoyed Sonic 06 even when it was a complete mess.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@WhayYay I'm talking in terms of infamy among FGs in general.

[@Sagan_Blandard20XX]

In the case of Sam Sho 2019, going back to basics works and makes sense. It is hopefully a rebirth for the series, and reminding us all of why Sam Sho is great is a smart way to approach that.

[@picklefriction]

Are you listening SEGA? Time for a new Virtua Fighter. We need it now more than ever.

[@mattotterpop]

Dont even tease that dude...!

[@the_ed2274]

I'd love for another virtua fighter...but at this point, it may not happen sadly.

[@dbo2700]

I'd take a 1080p Port of 5 on PS4.

[@newnamepending64]

when does Sega ever really listen?

[@picklefriction]

@@dbo2700 You and me both. 5 was great!

[@Wol1427]

Well if fighting games really want to pull in more casual players, it's definitely dependant on the content, especially OFFLINE content. Too many fighting games these days are too reliant on online play, 9/10 times me and my friends always skip fighting games if they lack content, especially offline content, and usually wait till the game is dirt cheap, we especially end up waiting for a complete edition or a sale if there's a fighting game that seems to abuse dlc for more content. As for mechanics, the mechanic only need to appeal to casual players, but doesn't need to be overly simplified.

[@moonlightdrifter5080]

Which is why when I do get a console setup, I'll decide to play offline. That's the real good way to play casuals and better learning skills to improve in person.

[@Vorador47]

yeah, i loved MK9 for the fact i could play that game ton, as there was so much i could do when i didn't want to play online. and thats why i don't buy fighting games so much anymore, playing online all the time doesn't appeal to me, so i would probably only play for an hour or two here and there, and thus would rather spend the cash on something i'm going to play more.

[@ZayIvory7]

That's why I always enjoy Soul Calibur games. It's offline content.

[@Shiratto]

SCVI and T7 was a huge breath of fresh air for me for this exact reason. Specifically SCVI. It had a good sized main story along with character stories and a huge ass campaign for custom characters. I had a blast because I could do all that and try out different moves in a pseudo lab setting before I felt comfortable going online.

[@Chourtaird1]

Agree. I‘m a casual player and if the game doesn‘t have satisfying singleplayer I‘m not interested. I would also like to add good tutorials to the list of things impoertant for a casual.

[@kkd3973]

The harder the fighting game is, the more I want to invest in getting better at it. The easier it is, the more likely I'll drop it in a couple of weeks.

[@sladejosephwilson2300]

Same why waste time on a game that is easy

[@Neckbeardicus]

It's the opposite for most people. They like scrubby small brain fighters like MK11.

[@erbonprzi2502]

I need the rite character to invest/engage

[@shoto7948]

I'm that way with street fighter 3 since I'm just learning parrying and recently learned charge characters

[@Anonymous-ph8oe]

Very True. Your absolutely right about that.

[@ianphillips103]

I think you nailed on the head why I like Soul Calibur and Tekken so much. You can easily access the game at a lower level but spending time with the game and you understand the incredible depth the game presents with it's mechanics.

[@bigbrowski410]

Core-A gaming has a variety of videos on this topic and a lot of things that branch off it. That channel in general is a great place to go for this kinda discussion and analysis. When it comes to ease of access, I continue to love KI. It’s combo system is overall simple but so fun and mind game-y that it’s so approachable. And the in game tutorials are so perfect in teaching what the advance stuff is but more importantly why you should do it. Killer Instinct really deserves more spotlight for being so fun to watch, play competitively, and play casually.

[@WiiAgent007]

DKing I love that channel. I have yet to put the philosophies into practice as I have a family and won’t have time to get good ... not yet. Family comes first, but once my first daughter gets old enough, I think I’ll play SF2 with her and see how that develops. :)

[@ILoveToEatRed40]

What ki does well is it tells you what you are doing wrong and how to fix it

[@Zeithri]

I really dislike Core-A Gaming. I vehemently disagree with him.

[@595no]

The best part of the new KI is the new narrator.... specially with that gutural: UUULLLTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[@kohei6587]

Also what developers and people need to realize is that some fighting are not going to be for everyone. if the person doesnt feel self gratification from getting better through learning the game then there isnt a point in making it easier. One thing I notice from casual players is that they come to fighting games for the button smash experience and rarely care about learning anything about the game mechanics or combo structure.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

Yeah but it's not just about wanting to get better. People button mash partly because a lot of the games are unnecessarily complex. It's difficult to get your character to do simple things and that doesn't feel good. In Smash Bros generally all of the characters have the same inputs. You don't really have one character requiring a Z input, while another only has a backwards charge input. So you learn how one character works, and you can basically control any character. But the lack of complex controls for basic movement doesn't mean there isn't depth and difference between the characters. Sure Up + B is typically a recovery for all characters, but Zelda's teleport and Pikachu's Quick Attack have very different properties that allow them to be used for rather different situations. I just think they can have a high skill ceiling without needing to have a high skill floor.

[@kohei6587]

Kamike Serpantail I agree with most of what you said and all of it is definitely true. But I still stand, it doesnt matter if the game has a low skill ceiling. If the players are not interested in becoming better and staying with the game. It doesnt matter how much u simplify it for them. I guess I personally enjoy performing or learning hard tech/combos and applying them in a match knowing not many people can perform. I dont care how simple the game is as long as it has depth as u said. Shit I play a lot of fighterz. My friend criticizes me for playing such a simple game, and even though he is right and the game is easy I simply enjoy how fast you have to react to incoming pressure.

[@chadthundercock2069]

Fighting games needs to be moar accessible for Darksydephil and Low tier god

[@BeyondBirthdayMurder]

Get your ass banned!

[@REDIVY78]

Lean in manual ban

[@Ryfinius]

As a former pro fighting game player, that is 100 percent incorrect. *wet snort* y'know? So there you have it. It is what it is.

[@x-ScaryBerry-x]

Man, darksfadil is trash!

[@jeice2226]

"I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING, I WAS BLOCKING"

[@Rdotmop]

why did you just happen to have Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe in arms reach

[@Rdotmop]

@ThatOneGuy 123 True, but I don't have it within arms reach of me right now. Instead, I have Burnout Paradise in arms reach for some reason

[@c-rod9993]

He probably put it there for the video lol

[@Ryfinius]

Maybe it was a coaster or book end.

[@JudgmenTaichi]

Like most PC setups, the trash can is always within arms reach

[@deathborr]

C-ROD 99 this is from a stream bruh

[@neogiu000]

"It should focus on things being fun" I honestly think that should go for every game ever made, regardless of genre.

[@canadiangooseok7281]

No shit bro

[@ZeroXKOS]

"It should be fun. Things should be fun, you should be excited!" This is why we love you Max

[@zeroskaterz92]

Now that I think about it, DMC5 has more fighting game mechanics than most fighting games these days.

[@pedrobautista203]

True

[@sirebellum0]

DMC5 is also one of the easiest games in the series in terms of execution yet it's mostly being praised.

[@Xerclipse]

and it has no QCF motions. Same for smash.

[@AzpecTProductionz]

Xerclipse nice try smasher

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

@@Xerclipse I'm really not fond of those motions. And I despise the Z. They just make me think of a time when there weren't enough buttons or context detection to make the characters do all of the things they need to do.

[@justletmeuseyoutube213]

So what you are basically saying is keep fighting games hype

[@henplay7399]

I agree with this and keep the game the same and if people wanna get better fucking use training mode to improve your skills and get alot better

[@Burrito_AM]

And have casual matches with friends or foes.

[@shiennohajime1495]

Hype is a different thing. MvC Infinite was very hype. But it wasn't good.

[@justletmeuseyoutube213]

@@shiennohajime1495 I wasn't at all hyped for MvCi

[@internetsavage8733]

Henshinnn !! As us, Dark Souls fans would say: "Git Gud"

[@shihi51]

The sf4 talk was real as hell. I hated when people in my highschool were complaining about how difficult the game was cause I KNEW they were gonna make sfv way toned down

[@WhayYay]

shiloh nelson are 3 frames _really_ that toned down compared to 1?

[@JadeJackal4]

@@WhayYay hell yeah!

[@shihi51]

@@WhayYay if you look at the simplicity of combo links in 5 compared to 4 its really big

[@ReyesdeMadrid]

"Fighting games absolutely have tears..." - Max Salty bitter tears

[@raystrife234]

*Toning down fighting game mechanics to get more units is a myth* HE SAID IT! OOOOOH YEAH BOI I'VE BEEN SAYING THOSE WORDS FOR A LONG TIME!

[@joshjones9749]

Tekken 7 sees growth in players and hype every year...after FOUR years. Whatever they did at Namco is how you're supposed to make a fighting game.

[@moonlightdrifter5080]

The real fact of the day.

[@Staff7]

@Eternal lol as if . i enjoy the game but casual friendly is not what i would call tekken.

[@michaelopole1866]

@Eternal are you sure about that because just to be able to get out of green ranks you have to learn to counter snake edge, junkyard, eddy, lucky chloe, asuka b3 spam, leo b14, sideways movement, kbd, nina string cheese etc. SFV ended up being easier to pick up and play because it didn't require so much matchup specific knowledge.

[@taco_sensei]

@Eternal In a way you're not wrong. Tekken is hype for casuals when 2 noobs take cool looking characters and spam and get slow mo's etc... but it's far from casual friendly if you want to play it like it's supposed to be played

[@bennymountain1]

@@michaelopole1866 Most playerbase is in the green ranks. They showed the graphs. For casual play landing an occasional snake edge into a combo is enough to call it a good session. Kinda like a lucky 777 roll on a slot machine. They don't care about consistent average 60% win rate required to rank up.

[@propholian3]

Yep, give me lots of characters, good looking stages, fantastic music, plenty of single player modes and I'm perfectly happy. Throw in a cpu vs cpu mode or tag it in another mode and that's a bonus.

[@rblaze88]

Why specifically a CPU vs CPU mode?

[@TheEndKing]

@@rblaze88 So that you can watch a CPU fight a CPU.

[@dr.jayhamilton5770]

So Smash?

[@rblaze88]

@@TheEndKing I knew that, I just thought theres something else behind it bc I don't see a point of watching CPU fights

[@TheEndKing]

@@rblaze88 The point is you can watch the computer fight itself, and wonder who will win and take bets with yourself. Best part is, you win every time!

[@nikmidclayton5933]

The biggest turn off for me with MCI was no XMen and the easy combo system being allowed in ranked matches.

[@ZeroXcuses]

Yep, didn't even look at that game without X-Men.

[@diamonshade7484]

I believe they couldn't use X-Men

[@paragonyoshi4237]

X-Men weren't there, because of legal reasons. Due to the "Disney/Fox" split at the time.

[@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_MASKED_WARRIA]

@@paragonyoshi4237 Which makes no sense because Fox only had the movie rights, not the game rights. Capcom could have used X-Men and Fantastic Four without any issues, it's just that Disney were being dicks about it and wouldn't let them just because they were salty.

[@ali-kun7038]

@@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_MASKED_WARRIA and that's exactly what disney did, they wanted to devalue fantastic four and x-men to get full rights on it, then they eventually bought fox.

[@Xuses]

I’m still disappointed that they took away DP motions from MVCI and replaced it with a bunch of down down inputs. This kind of stuff can’t be happening.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

I understand that vertical-only motions are generally a no-no for specials because one motion covers both directions and that there aren't a lot of convenient options for directional motions, but I ALWAYS despised the DP motion. Fuck, 720s are more agreeable. The way that you defend it makes it sound like you DON'T want casuals to have even the most basic fun, which just sounds like prickish elitism. We ALL can see that DP motions and pretzels are just artificial gatekeeping even when the balance is designed around them. Pure rolling motions are a necessity and are convenient to do. A lot of pros in the old days from what I'd read could not do a DP for MONTHS. Its motion is an obvious anachronism of when just executing the move was the reward instead of making good use of it. If the motions were more reasonable, we wouldn't need simplified command options.

[@yuukitenjouin5790]

@@CarbonRollerCaco Try it with an arcade stick. Super easy, I promise you. Once you wrap your head around it, you might find that such a motion makes chaining specials convenient as well. DP isn't gate keeping. It's just a flick of the wrist.

[@Nintega2K]

@@yuukitenjouin5790 Yeah well 98.5% of ALL Casuals use controller (Especially with Almost every fighting game nowadays being SUPER controller-friendly), so can't use that argument nowadays. DP motions are usually fine 4 me, but then come the times in UMvC3 & Arcana Heart where the game asks me to chain DP motions from the most random shit, like Heart's 6C to 421C or Nova's COUNTLESS Combos ending with Supernova! It also doesn't help that Arcana Heart doesn't follow the Street Fighter 4 train in allowing "Close" inputs to count (Like 2323C for a DP)

[@yuukitenjouin5790]

@@Nintega2K Haven't played AC in years, so I can't really comment on that too much. But it sounds like they weren't really considering "flow," if that makes any sense. Like, game design could be better. I play controller and it's a breeze to DP from basically anything. But I got somewhat good playing in the arcade, where the executions make the most sense. I think learning stick helps, is all.

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

@@yuukitenjouin5790 I never said that I had any problems with pulling off the motions NOW; just that it's EXTREMELY cumbersome for most beginners to wrap their heads around and difficult to quickly execute. And I'd hardly call a zigzag motion "a flick of the wrist". It was used as gatekeeping in the arcades back when such games were designed to gobble quarters. Stop kidding yourself.

[@themightylebeau]

So far SamSho is one of the only games where I can go toe to toe with higher rank players. I've learned to be offensively defensive and I'm loving it.

[@Kintaku]

What does it feel like to play? I've never played it, but to be honest it looks kind of bland from just watching it, but it seems to be getting overwhelmingly positive reviews. Trying to figure out if it's worth checking out.

[@viceanterra3]

@@Kintaku it feels rewarding when you made a good read/play that leads to 50% or more with less focus on execution and more on the neutral.

[@Kintaku]

@@viceanterra3 gotcha. I can tell it's a pretty footsies heavy game. In terms of weight is it similar to DBFZ or is it heavier? Strange way of putting it, but it looks heavier to me.

[@blanahaha]

It's a very neutral and footsies based game. So if you enjoy that aspect of fighting games then you'll love shamsho. If you're more of a complex/cool combo's person then samsho isn't for you.

[@viceanterra3]

@@Kintaku actually almost everyone gracefully floats through the air lol

[@SapphWolf]

As long as your game looks amazing and is intuitive to learn I'm in. I honestly LOVED GGXX for the branching story mode and the challenge missions. Making me win the fight with Chipp when I'm poisoned forces me to get better and better at the game without realizing it.

[@andyman4248]

Also... If you want new players to get into and STAY into fighting games I think the Skullgirls/Guilty Gear method is the best option... Don't nerf the mechanics, buff the tutorials! Imagine a mainstream fighting game with a super in-depth tutorial like those games have!

[@FRIEDTOASTMP4]

Yeah hopefully people play skullgirls for once

[@colmecolwag]

@@FRIEDTOASTMP4 As someone who gave an honest try to it, who loves multiplayer games but can't get into these games no matter how much I try... ...Skullgirls still plays like poop, in the standard 2D fighting game style. The tutorials are cute, but explaining the terms does not help you actually do things well or help explain... how to feel like you're controlling a character and not just throwing out moves as needed. It doesn't justify the existence of 6 attack buttons. It doesn't sell one who already doesn't like the way those games control.

[@Zangelin]

You say as they are the most niche and has the lowest playerbase of em all due to being too complex.

[@hannomatz34]

Actually... Rev simplified mechanics from older GG games... For example characters are not their individual weight classes anymore instead there are only 2. Also Arcsys already said they wanna further simplify the next game

[@FRIEDTOASTMP4]

@@Zangelin I wouldn't say its cause they are too complex. Its just there is no appeal for causals to play outside of good gameplay. Like they don't know who sol badguy is and probably wont ever know unless someone tells you about guilty gear. Its kinda the fault of bad marketing

[@Zadamanim]

Completely agree, doesn't matter if its divekick or guilty gear, experienced players will always beat beginners. Fighting games need more fun modes though, like coop vs bosses or adventures outside of combat to attract more players.

[@colmecolwag]

The difference is Divekick is still fun to play, while Guilty Gear feels like a mess to control. It is rad to lose and feel like you got an idea what happened. Guilty Gear is... not that sort of game.

[@EccentricArc]

Yea mk11 coop tower fights are great

[@Zadamanim]

@@colmecolwag I've played GG a fair bit and there's certainly a lot to learn, but it's definitely not impossible. It bends the rules so much that it's really not obvious how the game is meant to be played, but that also makes it really fun to discover new strategies or techniques as you improve. I do wish you had a grab button instead of up-close HS though.

[@Zadamanim]

@@EccentricArc There was a 2 players vs cpu easter egg in SF Alpha 2 where Ken and Ryu coop against a super strong Bison. I really wish it was a feature in every game!

[@CrowBag]

The most dangerous thing in a fighting game is a noob! They have no style, pattern and don’t respect anything lmao.

[@bumpyface228]

People who suck at fighting games are going to continue to suck at fighting games even after mechanics and difficulty are dumbed-down. Period. The comment about making the games easier benefits the pros more than the casual=FACT.

[@DrRyan82994]

Max, unielst is like the poster child for not toning down mechanics for casuals. You could write a novel with descriptions of everything that game has

[@Neogears1312]

And yet not a single chapter of that novel would have a chapter on making a good game

[@RougeMephilesClone]

And they did write a novel on the mechanics! It's the tutorial!

[@mr.raikage164]

@@Neogears1312 so your saying unist is a bad game

[@Neogears1312]

Mr . squiggly kman I’m not saying it’s a good game is all. I don’t think it does anything particularly wrong I just don’t think any of it feels pleasant when compared to other games that do the same gameplay style but objectively better.

[@hannomatz34]

@@Neogears1312 There's no game that has the gameplay style of Uniel... And objectively doesn't really apply in the judging of a game besides technical aspects in terms of graphics, framerate etc.

[@Ion0X]

Lets be real guys. Why did everyone buy Dragon Ball Fighterz?... Mechanics? Not me. I bought it cause it was a pretty dragon ball z 2.5d fighting game that had a ton of characters i liked. XD

[@moonlightdrifter5080]

I'm down with DBFZ. It does have some really good characters and I'm still waiting on more characters to be revealed soon. Same with Tekken 7 as well.

[@1u5e-Y]

I got it cause it was DB also, but the main reason was that it was on sale for like 15 bucks and videl was released.

[@in4mus85]

That's why I bought it but I got bored because it's too basic

[@alfa01spotivo]

yeah its so awesome

[@Ryesia]

This is the huge problem I have with FGs in general now, I needed a rant like this. Thanks.

[@JELIFISH19]

Is it really a problem? I think only one developer is guilty of dumbing games down and that's ASW. They've been trying to attract people who aren't fighting game players since P4A. That game was fine because you weren't limited and you could still do crazy things. But they've just been getting worse with DBFZ, BBCTB, and now GBFV. I feel like I can't do what I should be able to do in those games and that's a horrible feeling. I don't feel that way when playing anything else. I feel like they limit you instead of making things easier.

[@Jirasu]

Time, patience, and dedication. Making sure you stay humble, learn, learn and learn. I did this with Killer Instinct back when it first came out. I was okay at the game, but after watching a video from Max where he fought a really really good Jago, I was inspired to get better and to actually learn and understand that game. I spent hundreds of hours in training mode just learning and immersing myself in that game and trying to figure out as much as possible. Because I wanted to do cool stuff that looked awesome and felt satisfying to do. By the end of me playing that game everyday, I was much better than before and was still learning from playing online. It was the first fighting game that I took VERY seriously in terms of understanding how the game works, and as many nooks and crannies as possible. Max is right here; make a badass videogame with dope characters, stages and awesome music. Make it fun to play so anyone of any skill level can enjoy it. The game will get the praise it deserves. Don't worry about tier lists or anything of the sort. Just make a good, and fun fighting game.

[@james8981]

AHMEN Brother

[@Neon-yj9xw]

I will add something, though: The depth of a fighting game's mechanics should never be dumbed down just for casuals, the game should do a better job of teaching its complexities

[@vgdrent2852]

@@Neon-yj9xw Exactly and adding to that make sure that your characters are balanced, to avoid problems like when injustice 2 first came out.

[@Neon-yj9xw]

@@vgdrent2852 or the later years of Mortal Kombat X, since it was just 50/50 rushdown hell with no real variety.

[@lukelaser5397]

I couldn't have said it better myself. You guys are all on point. Killer instinct was my first foray into this amazing genre we call fighting games. All you have to do is have an open mind, realize that it can be frustrating and that you will lose. But if you stick with it, its hands down the best genre in all of gaming. Just my opinion.

[@LucasSSP]

When it became about winning tournaments it stopped being about the game and started being about the player.

[@ShadowSumac]

Which I am sad about. Games should be about fun. Turning them into sport kills their appeal.

[@LucasSSP]

@@ShadowSumac Agreed.

[@BGTournaments]

I think it makes a game better, it adds depth, and a reason for playing the game for years to come.

[@ShadowSumac]

@@BGTournaments What do you mean?

[@yheonmercado8506]

@@ShadowSumac Does that mean that baseball and basketball are any less fun because there sports?. I don't think so. But I will say that if a developer sides more with the competitive side of their game, then yes I would agree with what you stated. There has to be a medium to both sides for a game to be successful I believe.

[@BMGamesYT]

That is how feel about Final Fantasy Dissidia, the psp version had way more options in battling your opponent instead they changed it up so its just TDM or Capture the Flag. Feelsbadman

[@vinicinfodexota5083]

Yes! I was playing that on steam, i hated that shit, It was so diferent from what i loved

[@FFXfever]

But this got nothing to do with the conversation. Psp is a super easy game where defense is stronger than offense. O12 nerfed it but also kept characters like Zidane intact, making it a rocket-tag with some footsies in it. NT is a way more complicated and balanced game. It just wasn't fun if you don't like team strategy games.

[@yeet5767]

exactly how i felt with the new dissidia too.. i spent hundreds of hours in the old psp game cus there was so much more to it but i just couldnt get into the new one

[@KnightMysterio]

Developers: "We made everything easier by making it so you can do bazillion hit combos with a button press!" Expert Fighting Gamer: *beats noobs up like they're the General from Kaiser Knuckle* Noob Fighting Gamer: "How is this easier?" Other Expert: *slaughters foes like they're Parace from Arcana Heart 3.* Casual Fighting Gamer: "HOW is this easier!?"

[@RenShinomiya121]

More Experts: *Gets comboed for a long time just like SK:EV, BB, GG* Casuals: do you really think it's easier?

[@ashchisalleh1454]

Damn I casual about those game still know the reference lol

[@abdulrasyiid]

Thats why dumbing down gameplay mechanic in fighting game is stupid thing

[@smith9747]

I sucked at it, but the combo style of Street Fighter 4 combined with it's huge roster including the updates make it my favorite fighting game of all time.

[@khalilwilliams1818]

I feel the same sf4 was the best and balanced enough I wasent great at it but seeing it in tournament made o alot of ppl known. Gamerbee and others

[@smith9747]

@@khalilwilliams1818 It basically shaped the EVO into the event as we know it nowadays.

[@dubfoot1659]

That game has soooo much more style than sfv

[@c-rod9993]

I have USF4 digitally on my ps4 it's probably still my favorite fighting game. It was one of those games that really clicked with me or was fun learning combos and the focus attack was s awesome new mechanic. I don't play it as much as I use to but every time I do i remember why I liked this game so much. This era fighting games all feel dumbed down and slow.

[@azharfaturohman4940]

@@khalilwilliams1818 yeah, when I watching pro player play 3rd strike and USF4 always make feel more motivated to get better even though I'm not really good. Now watching SF5 tournaments just looks boring, because everyone can be daigo in SF5.

[@tpatt513]

I'm definitely amazed with your knowledge and science when it comes to the fighting game genre. You're definitely a pure student of the genre and still learning. Everything you said made sense in what we need as far as having versatile options and getting in depth with the basics of fighting games; characters, visual stages that can relate to that charcater, a diverse move set, and kick ass music. This is an excellent vid that had me reflecting to the details of all the fighting that I'd ever played since the early 90s.

[@Potato_n_Tomato]

The way auto combos (the light versions) were handled in DBFZ pisses me off to no end even a year later. (Especially for Bardock/Vegito and now even Tohan) Even when I was a casual new to fighting games player I didn't like it and how it encouraged me to learn less and be braindead. I loved learning that with time I could do the deeper stuff like better reads, combos like Gohan leg loops, etc. As I got better (now a ssj rose rank after 1480 matches and 1058) those mechanics is what kept me hooked and keep playing/get better because it felt more satisfying.

[@ILoveToEatRed40]

What sucks is that elitist say that its easy to counter but when even pros abuse the auto combos not wiffing and the auto correction a mechanic that was designed for noobs is obviously overpowered

[@Potato_n_Tomato]

@@ILoveToEatRed40Yeah it's very bad when a mechanic made specifically for casuals/accessibility is effective/abused at ALL skill levels. Those are the type of "nerfs" I don't like in every genre. People who say it's a low level thing and JuSt BlOcK BaRdOck either main those characters (and do those mechanics) or retarded. Medium auto combos were done right, LLL not so much.

[@Yous0147]

I agree. DBZF has a lot of great elements but also a lot of subpar and damning elements too, the biggest ones being the light auto combo and auto correct

[@be3tle439]

@@Yous0147 yeah why can't auto could work like target combos?

[@ScubaSteve796]

Same here, I get it for lower ranked and new players, but when people are using it at higher ranks then sending hate mail it gets truly annoying and cheap. It shouldn't be as powerful as it is. I can land a 20-30 hit combo and the opponent can use an autocombo and do the same damage? No.

[@Wiiranger87]

I always thought that fighting games should continue to improve their tutorials. Teach newcomers on timing, giving fun mini games that helps practice certain mechanics. Make it easy to understand at the start but let the player to experiment afterward

[@Neogears1312]

I think that fighting game tutorials are just crutches. Firstly the devs aren’t psychic enough to know that or make all options are equal so the knowledge they tell you isn’t as helpful to new players. Second it doesn’t teach the mind set. Skull girls doesn’t tell you how important the assist you pick will determine your entire team, just that hey these can extend combos and you can be clever with these. ... how? That info literally decides if I can compete with most people and unless i watch tournaments I’ll never know that big band and Beowulf work great together because of A train. Rev2 never tells you that you should cancel all forward momentum with barriers. Hell no game as of my current knowledge teaches you what jailing is, what meaties are, how to Kara, or the importance of reads and conditioning. These are very important things I’m certain you’ll never learn without the community. I think it’s up to the community as well as the game devs to make it more commonly known that “hey people will help you figure out how to get better at this game you don’t need to just practice in an echo chamber”.

[@carlosaugusto9821]

Yes. And maybe nowadays most of the famous fg companies suck at tutorials.

[@Neogears1312]

SmoothLegend don’t give me that bullshit mk11 tutorials are literally just basic shit you could figure out from the movelist. The only thing they did was explain what frame data was. If you didn’t know what frame data was you probably gave up the tutorial by that point. And if you were interested in it you already learned what it was cause you looked it up. It’s like a fighting game equivalent of telling someone smoking is bad.

[@EccentricArc]

@@Neogears1312 nah I agree with him compared to other games it's a good tutorial that covers everything

[@mr.raikage164]

@@Neogears1312 well unist has good tutorial

[@LuceDGooseVT]

Im still a firm believer that you can lower the skill floor of a fighting game, but have a skill ceiling as high as it was before, if not higher

[@logandunlap9156]

no one is saying otherwise, dude.

[@tinytex85]

Is there a reason this segment is called "Max Rants," and not "Mad Max?" C'mon, who's with me...?😉

[@NitroCigarette]

I don't see him as mad? More like concerned and passionate.

[@michaelcastillo8884]

I think it’s because it sounds like Angry Joe? Idk

[@tkpipo]

Come on guys... It's a reference.

[@Ryfinius]

Lawsuits?

[@skullythekidd0175]

@@NitroCigarette plus copyrights

[@pyroronnie2473]

Hell look at tekken. Someone made one of the most useless characters into the best and even into the champion character. PANDA

[@AmyLionheartArtistry]

Blood Blossom TEKKEN 7 is a beautiful thing. Tiers don’t really matter, which makes it fun.

[@UmmItsMJ]

Amy Lionheart Tiers matter in all games, just not equal across the board. Tekken 7 is massive based on skill unlike a lot of others, so that’s why it’s tiers don’t matter in it as much as others

[@Draciosama]

@@UmmItsMJ it was because of tiers that he won with panda. Match ups mean everything. If you don't know it you're gonna suffer for it. No one knew the panda match up because like op said, he's considered useless. Max is right, tiers exist, but match up knowledge is the MOST important. Tiers only matter in the understanding of your match ups.

[@SkepticGamer]

Tiers matter. Anybody saying otherwise is stupid. But tiers only matter if you have the understanding to go with it.

[@mcfry13]

@@SkepticGamer lol keep telling yourself that, kid!

[@chiisuchan]

So true! The only thing I would add is it needs to be fun to lose. Cuz when players are first getting started that’s what’s going to happen more than anything else! Anyone who’s still having fun even when getting their butt whooped is going to become a long-term player and will reach out to everyone they know to try!

[@breaksystembse]

*See Title "Max Rants"* *Cancels everything and pulls up a chair*

[@newport954]

Wut

[@melia3373]

i did the same and got popcorn

[@zylowolfzan3345]

Soulcalibur 6 is a great example, between all the lethal hit stuff and spacing and movement you need to keep a hold of, the game can be ROUGH to learn, but the basic buttons themselves are straightforward, Reversal Edge is a simple but risky tool that players can use to help casual players defend themselves more easily, and it has a TON of stuff for casual players! A bunch of characters, and the CHARACTER CREATOR! The Character Creator is probably the most powerful casual-drawing tool in any fighting game!

[@Amesang]

Honestly the character creation inspires me to play as characters I might not have otherwise. Talim by herself? She's alright… but Talim dressed as Earth-chan? =3 Adorable.

[@Hillthugsta]

Ironically enough, RE, and Character creator is whats killing the game.

[@freddiewompton]

@@Hillthugsta I was going to say. From the online to the competitive scene to that game. The things literally killing it are custom characters, RE, and the game's notorious balance.

[@MrJmaster09]

When someone uses the RE I start sweating back when I got it on launch day. Even when I am playing it safe guard break or some weird delay input happens. I played it for a month and a half and dropped it. Need to pick up Soul Calibur 6 idk what change they have now.

[@BMVfilms]

Funny enough, I've heard people say they already dumbed down the mechanics by streamlining GI (no high-low),

[@sbadham]

"Nothing worth having comes easy" - Theodore Roosevelt.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

Air though

[@downsjmmyjones101]

That's why I love Smash. N-airs are super hard and up smashes are almost impossible.

[@Pixygon]

James Downs Are you finding that you accidentally jump when trying to input an up smash? If you’re playing Ultimate, that’s understandable since jumps come out much faster than in previous entries. If this is your problem, you might find success by toggling “tap jump” off in your controls settings. This will make it so that you can only jump with buttons, not the stick, (which might sound hard if you’re used to tap jump, but you might or might not find it worth investing in getting good at button jumping, since it will free you up for inputting aerial attacks. I personally haven’t used tap jump in years.) Perhaps it’s not that you jump accidentally, but rather that you have difficulty inputting a smash input rather than a tilt input. While I would recommend getting the timing down for both since it translates into certain special attacks in other characters, (but you can cross that bridge when you get there,) what you could always do is use the right stick to input smash attacks. Just tap and/or hold the right stick in the desired direction and let go, voila, instant smash attack. You could even use this method if you want to keep tap jump turned on since the right stick won’t make you jump. You can even use the right stick in the air for aerial attacks. As for neutral air? Well, just jump and press A without holding any direction. Can’t really help you much with that one. I realize it can initially feel strange not to press any directions, but you’ll adjust if you practice. :) TLDR: -You can toggle your controls so that the control stick won’t make you jump, -you can use the right stick to do a smash attack, -jump and press A to do a nair.

[@mystymos3614]

@@downsjmmyjones101 no offense, both of those things are kind of foot through the door. you'll find it's much much easier with time. you can just press two buttons at one time for one of those problems, and up smashes arent too hard if you treat them like tilts

[@downsjmmyjones101]

@@mystymos3614 I was joking.

[@risingyun2859]

Max should be the president of the fighting community.

[@gaming.craftsman]

Hell no...

[@Xerclipse]

You wanna know a fighting game I like that doesn't revolve around giant combos? Vampire Savior. Yeah some characters have busted combos (Bulleta). But the game makes up for its insane movement and fast pace.

[@Ithritable]

The background music made this 10x more inspiring.

[@helioknight9570]

Imo the whole "tone down to make things accessible" is just an excuse for devs to get lazy.

[@FraserSouris]

Properly making things accessible while maintaining depth is harder than you might think. If Devs were lazy, they'd wouldn't even bother.

[@SPACECOWBOY705]

@Darrell Williams they are not redoing stuff they are taking stuff away

[@logandunlap9156]

it’s not as easy as pushing the “make game” button and it certainly can be less work to make a simpler system, but making a game is a big undertaking on any scale. the idea that you have that the devs are lazy is pretty damn backwards. if anything, they’re going the extra mile to make the game appeal to more people who think the game might be too difficult to get into. not saying “why don’t you do it if they’re so lazy”, because that’s a total non-argument, i’m saying that your opinion is probably misguided.

[@Avoxni]

I'm just here waiting for tekken x street fighter and hope for the monstrous return of q and 12 in that game

[@RougeMephilesClone]

12 in another game is a day one purchase from me. Venom is my jam, and he's pretty much a knockoff. If SFV does it - and it won't, I'm calling it - I'll pick my copy back up, update it, and buy what I need to buy.

[@DeepCDiva]

I just want to X.C.O.P.Y people again...

[@arielgonzalez008]

@@DeepCDiva I just wanna see people get blown up by Q's crotch again

[@fatpikachu2900]

my brother introduced me to third strike when i was crazy young, so i never knew about any of the techniques in the game like parrying or ex moves, and we ended up playing it for about a year until we accidentally parried a move or performed an ex move. a game being really easy to learn just gets dull once you have played it for a while, but having new skills to discover keeps the game fresh for a much longer time. its the main reason why melee is so popular still.

[@halrin8329]

I can relate to this. The reason I bought Smash Ultimate and still playing today is because Inkling is in the game. Roster means a lot.

[@arielgonzalez008]

I bought a 3DS because of the Mii Fighters in Smash 4, and bought a Switch due to everyone coming back in Ultimate. I agree

[@UNFDsBRO_TCY_7916]

They say MVCI gameplay's great, but not the same roster in MVC series, I wanted to support it but no thanks.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

"I can't do one-link combos, I'll never be good at SF4," is like "I can't dunk, I'll never be good at basketball." It's the absurd idea that you have to master every tool in order to play, successfully.

[@Pandaman64]

There are characters though, that if you don't have one framers down you really shouldn't play them.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

@@Pandaman64 And centers probably wouldn't score many baskets if they couldn't dunk. If you play a character that requires 1-framers, then I'm willing to bet there are skills they don't need that are required by other characters. Otherwise, why play them? Unless they're the Harlem Globetrotters and overworking for the sake of pride is the gimmick.

[@letsgitcrackin]

I've never heard it broken down like that but this is solid advice that extends outside of gaming

[@jon_3195]

Ayyy. Max upgraded his cameras. Glad you're coming up Max. Keep at it

[@international_sensei8320]

Im lik 5 years late to guilty gear it is literally the best Fighting I have ever played. Its like Im learning something new every time I play

[@ALPHASTORM13]

International_Sensei Amazing i know 😉

[@international_sensei8320]

@@ALPHASTORM13 who do you play?

[@ALPHASTORM13]

International_Sensei honestly i can do good with anyone. But I Main Baiken, Ramlethal and raven

[@international_sensei8320]

@@ALPHASTORM13 I love me some venom

[@xenit7837]

The thing I hear the most after ANY fighting game tournament is this one repeated line. "I can't believe he did that. That took so much skill!" Or "What a read! How did he know???" These are because it was difficult. If I can press a button and won not by reads. Not by skill. But by glue eating. That's. Bad. Design.

[@Paperfiasco]

So, in short...this is more or less it yea? Content SELLS the game (for the casuals) Mechanics keep the game ALIVE (the hardcore who keep playing after the casual audience drops off)

[@Phreal95]

Another Max rant that i truly enjoy and understand. Imagine street fighter 6 having all the legacy characters and brand new interesting characters. Also 22:46 for random gibberish.

[@UNFDsBRO_TCY_7916]

He said what most of the FGC have been complained about for a long time. Capcom and the fellow companies really need to improve the gameplay and characters to hype again.

[@Phreal95]

@@UNFDsBRO_TCY_7916 amen brother

[@UNFDsBRO_TCY_7916]

I've learned combos and footsies in USFIV and it's a really rewarding experience for me. And then SFV, jeez I'm considering to delete this game or not. The pace of V is extremely slow and no hype in it, no matter how many characters come back, right now they won't hit me again. Same as you, waiting for SFVI and other fighting games sequels to be better and hype again.

[@Phreal95]

@@UNFDsBRO_TCY_7916 yeah yeah. Best believe ill be on the hype train when a better fighter games come out

[@MegaRizwan20]

Coming back to this after seeing what they are doing to GG2020 and man this is as relevant as ever.

[@SeniorMrLordJyggalag]

That bullshit really isn't blazing anymore, bro.

[@fatboy561]

Man i miss the golden era of gaming I just wish fighting devs would actually LISTEN to people like max to make better products

[@helivega299]

Sales are superficial (graphics, roster, etc), communities have depth (mechanics, legacy, etc).

[@ashchisalleh1454]

That doa situation now.

[@classicblue]

But they matter. Remember low sells is bad for business. We already live in a time where triple a companies are scared to make any game they dont think will sell enough.

[@helivega299]

@@classicblue yes they do and a lot, just saying that sales are based on superficial things, like graphics, roster blah blah blah. Just look at DBZ, sold a lot cuz of looks, roster and the fact it was a 3v3 but IMO it faded kinda quick. Developers need to either find the balance between those 2 or know exactly what they want and sell it for what it is either just sales or a legacy.

[@classicblue]

@@helivega299 and max ready covered all of that.

[@nagaitzu4120]

People buy fighting game for the character and roster size and in some cases both and to some degree the graphics . Imo ofc

[@Scyte89]

I agree with you, I just started to try to get into fighting games and I'm more driven to Guilty Gear than any casual fighter :P

[@MarkusJackDijkgraaf]

As someone who sucks at fighting games, lacks the ambition to git gud, but really loves many franchises - you are 100% right imho, good sir! Edit: Devs need to stop cutting content and reselling it to us. I really, really hate when a favourite character of mine is locked behind a paywall.

[@alexandrexapa]

Single player content is also key to selling fighting games, you cannot release without story/arcade mode

[@ejgeldart4820]

Facts

[@skyuru]

But also more "reward" in the game, like in SFV, you lose completely quick the motivation because the most of things that you can unlock is via real moneys, FMs rewards still not included beside the "weekly challenge" and the reward is vary low... Games like Soul Calibur 6 with a story mode, stuff to unlock, RPG style, everything is fun. another fun is to play many characters, if a videogame have low characters its quick boring...

[@bunceman4613]

As someone who will probably never go online in MK11 this is true. If single player was not there I would not get it.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

Another reason Smash Bros does so well.

[@jedispartancoolman]

People care about story on fighting games? Arcade sure but a half baked story could just be put into something else.

[@MrHatchiFuto86]

As someone who sucks at doing long combo strings I love 3rd strike and yes hands down has the best sound track in fighting game history

[@kazkatgamer6722]

skullgirls, the most underrated fighting game that should have gotten more love.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

Never has game been more loved by its audience, respected by its peers, but got so weirdly sidelined by the greater community.

[@davidburke4101]

@@Dasaltwarrior It was 100% it's art.

[@therealgumdrop]

David Burke the art is great, but also its mechanics and overall gameplay are awesome

[@matrix3509]

@@therealgumdrop its art definitely drove people away. Its art combines the worst of anime with the weird pervert aura you get from DoA. Its art guaranteed it was never going to be popular.

[@riastradh]

matrix3509 are you sure about that? Cause big band looks fucking cool. It looks like a detailed cartoon fighter to me

[@madfinntech]

I'm incompetent in fighting games and I still agree. What sells me these games are visuals, music, flashy action and characters! And especially lately story modes.

[@eshaanbasu9342]

the way to sell more to casuals is to make better single player content. just look at NRS.

[@themastersofcomedy9277]

Yes I agree cause the veterans of a fighting game shouldn't have to suffer due to the fact the mechanics are dumbed down

[@Xelae93]

Another example that could've been used is the DMC series, but with those games being single player games I can understand why they weren't mentioned. I really gotta stop finding excuses to bring up those games.

[@sirebellum0]

DMC5 is all about accessibility and it's being praised. It's like the opposite of what Max is saying. It's objectively the easiest in the series to execute things

[@Xelae93]

@@sirebellum0 That is very true. Even so, the player has so many options. A lot of the modern fighting games are focusing on removing certain options, to make the game more accessible. You don't need to sacrifice options in order to gain accessibility, and that's why I immediately thought of DMC5.

[@sirebellum0]

@@Xelae93 Well I would agree. But I'd also imagine DMC would run into the same issues as these other games if it got turned into a fighter. Could you imagine trying to play online in DMC if you hadn't mastered Jump Canceling? Thing about DMC is since its sinlge-player, even if you aren't doing the technical stuff, you can still feel cool doing what you can against enemies. In a fighter not doing the technical stuff just gets you frustratingly wrecked.

[@Karubitea]

Dragonball FighterZ got me to buy it because of EVO vids where everyone was dealing FAST, INTENSE, BACK-AND-FORTH SHIT. Prior to this, I couldn't even understand what was going on in BlazBlue or Guilty Gear or Street Fighter or Tekken EVO matches. The expertise wasn't visible to me. But in Dragonball FighterZ, everything was on a surface. I could watch it, and understand why something SonicFox or GO1 did was bloody impressive. Still, I have to say that even though the looks is what made me get the game, the mechanics is what made me stay. Dragonball was so easy to pick up to do basic cool shit. To not have to think so hard to get to a mediocre level, it was fantastic. I still think I'm a far cry from getting to a competitive level, but standing where I am now, I can watch more matches and know where I'm lacking, where I'd lose because I now understand what I haven't mastered.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

Good commentators can also help. The match between Leffen and Go1 that Yipes and Hellpockets lost their shit over is still the best damn thing to come out of FighterZ

[@MrGonz801]

What kills me with FighterZ though is the lack of options in modes. For instance, you can decided to do 1v1 or 2v2 matches, but you can't set a lower damage output to balance that out, yes it's nitpicky, but it's a bunch of little things like this that add up and just rub me the wrong way. It is a fun game, but yeah...

[@Dasaltwarrior]

@@MrGonz801 Nah, definitely agree with you there. The 3v3 in fighterz is great, but the option for something a little quicker would be nice. And I honestly cycle my 3rd character simply because theres no other option. Its like, the ONE part of Marvel 2 & 3 I dislike. Pretty sure a recent castlesuperbeast cast talked about quality of life in fighting games and how they kinda suck atm.

[@andrewb5117]

Personally, the super dash mechanic is killing the game for me. That tool is so exploitable and is too fast for its own good especially online.

[@aWinterCrow]

@@PuddlesinZalem Yeah but that's kind of the point, isn't it. Not every game needs to be as complex as Guilty Gear or Unist. I think Max is absolutely wrong about FighterZ, it is by no means a simple game. Maybe you pros find it a bit less deep than others, but if it wasn't for the absolutely amazing presentation of the game and the fact that it's Dragon Ball, most people wouldn't even go near that game. I do agree that more modes could be fun, but other than that DBFZ is a game with a moderate complexity and a superb visual quality. And for the record, every time I've played DBZ with non fighting game fan friends they've been pretty overwhelmed by the game, often prefering something like Tekken or DoA.

[@iago71]

Fantastic video Max, Thank you for posting this. A brilliantly considered argument. Keep up the amazing work. :)

[@vj7248]

As a fighting game newb, the thing that draws me the most is singleplayer content. Like a super complex fighting game , if it had indepth singleplayer content like tutorials, fun singleplayer gamemodes, character customizaion for non-competitive setting i would check it out.

[@Genoh_]

too bad singleplayer content sucks most of the time in fighting games. I mean just look at the story mode for dbfz and sfv

[@ashchisalleh1454]

You mean soul calibur 3

[@LexerusColt]

I concur. One of the things I loved about Tekken 2 was taking my copy and a memory card to a friends house so we could take turns unlocking characters. I miss unlocking characters. As for mechanics go, I loved SF4. After seeing Ryu FADC into ultra, I had to try to do it.....couldn't get it to come out cause the shell of SF5 came out.....oh and that may have been when KI got its PC release.

[@matthewaddai5336]

Lexerus Colt Trust me when I say FADC’s are up there with alpha counters from the alpha games, and the parry mechanic from third strike.

[@Senumunu]

they def need to bring this back. it encourages you to try out different characters.

[@Galiaverse]

A good moment to reflect on what happened to Pokken Tournament. It's definitely a fun game. Absolutely undeniable. And it also had a lot of underlying mechanics while also attempting to appeal to more casual players. ...However the general public just refused to give it a chance. Even as dedicated players were getting better and matches were getting faster and more dynamic, and more characters were added, the game just got unfairly shunned. Two things about this: 1 - Early impressions are BIG! Some of the best characters in the game typically express some awesome close-range shenanigans. But the early scoffers wouldn't know this and would likely suggest that the game's all about projectiles and zoning. Casuals HATE that stuff because the strategy of that sort of combat is difficult to grasp. A shame then because that never encompassed the high-level play. Ignoring the zoning aspects, it also didn't help that people at the beginning were just REALLY BAD at helping spectators understand just what was happening. Meaning people had to make assumptions and draw incorrect conclusions. 2 - This is more on the developers, but they intentionally limited the game's combo system - much to the detriment of the game's appeal. Between the hard and strict damage scaling and the arbitrary 21-hit limiter, the freedom and individuality combos would present were rarely worth the effort. A few characters could be more expressive, but most of the time BnBs were beyond just optimal. Straying from the regular combo path hardly netted better reward and in some cases even reduced it! A Gardevoir with the right assist can pull off some crazy looking combos. But assists severely scale damage, so instead Gardevoir is stuck relying on the same ol' combo starter leading to same ol' combo finishers. Both of these points basically stem from a developer's desire for their game to be very accessible and inclusive. But they wanted to have their cake (the expansive mechanics) and eat it too (the casual players). Can't have it both ways....

[@michelemelo6836]

Cool characters doing cool looking stuff that feels cool to execute. That's what fighting games are all about.

[@alexhardline2208]

I really wanted Max to talk about Smash. He delivered.

[@thatrandomguy1198]

Alex Hardline were do we register

[@dong_co18n3]

Doing/Learning Lot's of Tekken Moves made me love tekken.. First of all Law's DSS, Mishima's EWGF's, and many others.. And applying it into combos made the game feel rewarding

[@theDiReW0lf]

The EWGF alone sold me on Tekken. The fact a game exists today with hardcore, legacy mechanics like that is fucking awesome and I appreciate it so goddamn much lol