Milestone SUCKS | Why XP Leveling is BEST in D&D

[@TheDungeonCoach]

What do YOU think about XP Leveling? Check out ALL of my Leveling Methods here in my book! 🐲 Alkander’s Almanac: bit.ly/AlkandersAlmanac

[@dittrich04]

I don't think there is a link to the calculator you used.

[@j03n1nj4]

I'm actually playing a combo in my next game. Milestone for leveling but using a modified XP system for bonus perks or other boons. Not sure how it's going to go but I'm looking forward to trying it.

[@xornxenophon3652]

I do not see any advantage in XP leveling. It is complicated, cumbersome and as arbitrary as milestone-leveling.

[@GlenHallstrom]

Is there a calculator for those of us who use separate class XP leveling charts?

[@airistal]

Leveling is the best leveling. As long as the players feel like their earning it.

[@danielbeshers1689]

Realistically, the leveling system you use is going to have an impact on the style of game you run. It's not that one method or the other is superior, it's that using the one which suits your table keeps things smooth, and using the one that does not will be knotty. You don't hit home runs with hockey sticks and, but it's hard to take a slap shot without one.

[@ethanhauck1811]

SERIOUSLY. Imagine running a RP-heavy campaign with XP - it would be a nightmare. It all boils down to your personal style and campaign.

[@Timonsaylor]

​@Ethan Hauck lol I run a RP heavy game with xp actually

[@mattalford3862]

I enjoy XP leveling, and I use a version of the UA Three Pillars experience method so I give XP for social encounters, exploration, working through traps and environmental challenges, etc. I enjoy calculating it because it's super simple (level up every 100 XP) and I get to reward players for more than just combat. Players seem to like it because they see their progress and know how close they are to leveling.

[@bryant3795]

Same, if there is some sort of negative consequence to failing there should also be exp for overcoming it, even more so for any challenges where death/damage is on the line as well or the only thing you are trying to avoid.

[@Merlinstergandaldore]

XP all the way, here. But I play mostly Old School games, with a player focused open world style. So there's no story outline, or specific beats wherein players need to level to keep up with a railroad scenario. They are the masters of their own destinies, and as such XP rewards will vary with success or failure. I despise Milestone leveling for this reason, and have seen player complacency and even expectation of leveling on a certain schedule. I had one player leave my game because I wasn't auto-leveling PCs on the schedule HE dictated was how it should be - but as DM I don't roll that way.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

I use the XP system from Cypher System games. Each XP is a milestone and an inspiration token. Roll a nat 1 and you get 2 XP. 1 to keep and 1 to give to a party member. Or you can give the 2 XP back to the DM to undo the complication caused by the Nat 1. There's other stuff that rewards XP in Cypher, but the main point is it's a resource in the players hands that they can horde, spend, and trade amongst each other.

[@PuppetMaster1791]

I can understand why some prefer xp leveling but both as a DM and even a player I preferred milestone. I am curious on the hybrid method and am looking forward to that video.

[@TalkativeHands]

I prefer milestone, but I use experience in my notes to mark where a half level, I use your half level boon home rule, or full level would be. I used experience early in my game and I didn't like it because it felt too gamy and made my players more bloodthirsty even when I also gave exp for roleplay. Also giving exp for roleplay felt wrong too, if you're trying to get a NPC to do something then that should be the reward.

[@bryant3795]

That is why I give exp not just for killing everything but defeating the encounter. That could mean intimidating/persuasion, running the enemy off, sneaking past, etc. So long as they overcome the encounter in some way they get the full exp for the encounter. This tends gives less combat oriented groups the same rewards as combat ones which helps to minimize bloodthirstiness.

[@gamasquad10]

I am in 2 two games at the moment and one is milestone and one is xp based, and I am really liking the xp system. Have had dm's use milestone before and it's fine, but the number crunch of xp is a very tangible way of seeing your character slowly get better and better at what they do. Hope y'all have an amazing day!

[@GaleGrim]

Okay, gonna set out my opinion first so I can come back to it and see if anything changes. XP is great when you games aren't going to have a lot of time for chit chat, and actual "milestones" that cause development are sparse. You can always give a huge amount of EXP for an event anyway to mimick the widening of skills gotten through milestone moment. Milestone is great for games that aren't going to have a lot of combat, or not enough combat to ensure good leveling pace, plus it allows for character who are social powerhouses to still gain power without having to go out and kill rats. They both have their uses. Mile stone is especially good for games where you have massive moments of "Oh shit we did a thing, it didn't kill anything, but we did a thing!" where are xp is really good at "We've been slaying monsters for literal months! We are hero's of the realm not just heros of legend"

[@j03n1nj4]

Using the thresholds is great, it's something I learned from playing the Dragon Age RPG(Fantasy Age). One thing I'd add/specify is that it can be a bit free floating too. For instance, you plan what you think is a medium encounter but for whatever reason ended up being much harder (more player resources spent/PC(s) went down, whatever) you can easily decide it was a hard encounter and reward that XP instead. Or if they blast through it and have very little difficulty, down grade it. Just keep in mind, if it was a hard encounter that ended up being easier because they had very clever game play/planning, or they made it harder by doing obviously stupid/silly things, it may still be worth giving the XP threshold you planned. Don't punish them for being clever/prepared and don't reward them for purposeful dumbassery (I'm sure there is a better way to word that). You have to be the judge of what makes sense for your group, play style and the situation.

[@Doodle1776]

I'm XP all of the way. I like to not only reward it for different things but I also am opposed to participation trophies. As in, if you're not at the game you don't just level up "just because." Means that you might be slightly behind other players but it is what it is and I don't cry over alterations of PC levels because it works just fine. It always did and it still does, it's only a more modern take that every PC needs to be at the exact same level all of the time.

[@barbarictutor]

Many of the anti-milestone points here are moot when they are saying "the DM determines when to level up". The issue is: 1. DM determines milestone leveling 2. DM determines XP awarded per encounter Either way the DM still decides when the players level up. DM decides random encounters, social encounter XP, and exploration XP. Especially since everyone knows how much XP you need to get to the next level, so the DM can control how much XP you earn (i.e. basically just milestone leveling). I can see it now....DM has set up a cool stronghold with multiple encounters plus a boss fight that will get them to Level 10 after the boss fight. PCs push through the stronghold, unknowingly skip 2 encounters and finish the boss fight short 200XP from leveling up to 10. After the boss fight there is no level up, then they long rest, get up and random encounter with a group of no name highway men, then finally get their level up. Feelsbad Just get yourself a good DM and milestone will feel fine

[@milesmatheson1142]

True. True.

[@nickm9102]

There is a trade off here. in an XP system you are far more inclined to explore because you are looking for that XP boost because in the back of your head you know you want to get to level X to use this ability or because you have never played at that level. and while the DM does control the creature count they still don't control the PCs let's take your stronghold but in this case lets add a prisioner group to be rescued. you know about the base because you scouted it the night before but the prisoners were taken this morning. are you going to fight the 6 groups of guards or workers if you can avoid them and go straight to the boss fight knowing that you will likely level up because "it is good for the story" at that point you are not playing a game you are doing the worst kind of story writing ever as you are likely NOT recording it in some medium So now your stronghold was fast tracked because "I want that lvl 10 feature" but I missed out on the combats or intimidating/persuading them to join your party rescuing the prisoners that can point you in the direction of a magic item shop or future work or be an ally for an arm of the campaign. and if you have to tell your party to explore that is worse than making a railroad type stronghold Milestone is good for two reasons 1 The DM is lazy about the XP count 2. you want the level progression to be tied to specific events. This is now a book, podcast, or video story not a game. I prime example of a milestone failure is Rhyme of the frost maiden. there are several tasks that you can complete that do not trigger the milestone progression and several that do so your group has a string of bad luck choosing tasks and the first four tasks you complete do not trigger the milestone so now you are lvl 1 for 4 sessions because you choose the wrong task but XP you would be at lvl 3 by now. the reason milestone exists as a rules option is because Wizards can not or will not figure out how to score non combat senarios and the RPG derived from War games wants to be a choose your own adventure storybook. it also allows for more flexability in playing if you plan for episodic games and not seasonal story arcs Just get yourself a motivated DM and XP will feel fine

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

The way I adore XP is what I'll call "XP (chunky)". Level up after 20 XP (Level and dice play with 20, so 20 is just a fun number and has a satisfying amount of chunkiness compared to 5 or 10, but not as granular as 100 or 1000). Or if you wanna gradually climb up a bit, maybe (10 + half current level) works too. (+1 to +3 XP) the episode / arc ends (+1 XP) the party explored or discovered something new (+1 to +3 XP) a quest was resolved or progress (including personal quests!) (+1 to +3 XP) the party overcame a challenge together Also, what is the campaign ABOUT? If it's a story about kids in school or an Avatar like journey, maybe give XP when they grow from their failures or face their fears. If it's a story about problem solving adventure like Doctor Who, you give XP for saving people and showing compassion, or imparting wisdom and social justice to your world. If it's a story about the power of friendship, maybe once per big scary fight you fully put yourself out there physically or emotionally for some big inspiring move to uplift or defend someone, you can gain XP (and maybe even give them Inspiration). If it's a story about enduring horrors, maybe you gain XP as your "forbidden knowledge", but you gain equal "Spooky" points and roll d20. If you roll higher than Spooky, nothing happens and keep your Spooky. If you roll lower, remove all Spooky and endure a curse with severity equal to the amount of Spooky wiped clean. And personal XP can be capped at a certain amount per arc or use that a sign for the GM to pivot and spotlight characters that could use more XP and interaction.

[@ptourt]

Dungeon Coach: "I'm playing both sides so that I always come out on top"

[@kelpiekit4002]

Just to throw in another idea, what do you feel about level buy? You level up when you can pay someone with the skills a certain amount to train you. Gold=XP but you also have to balance against gear and other costs, as well as socially finding suitable trainers who may have additional strings attached (and going into high levels are most likely mythical level creatures). Social roleplaying and interesting non-combat choices can be rewarded by trainers lowering cost due to gratitude, reputation, or interest in your tactics. I've never tried this myself and I can see where it might give incentive towards behaviours like stealing which you might not want or be harder to reward some situations systematically, however I can see some interesting elements of it too.

[@quinnnorman9916]

The potential problem I see with this is that it could encourage people to do whatever makes them the most money at any cost. I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem with the right group of players though

[@kelpiekit4002]

@@quinnnorman9916 Agreed. It certainly does that in reality. Though that could be a feature rather than a defect if good and evil matter.

[@StudyButte]

Great points! When i was a kid (back in the 70s) we'd just level up every few sessions. I doubt my 11 year old DM was tracking XP in a spreadsheet. But as a DM nowadays with the same guys, i track stuff in a spreadsheet - it's fun for me. I use the monster CR and treasure in a lookup table, and I create a CRs for various traps and puzzles, and i've found that the players level up every few sessions, anyway. It seems like when it feels like they need to level up, the points justify it. And yes, I agree that an encounter with an NPC or monster where the players gained the upper hand and the opponent escaped, then they get the XP for the encounter. I had like an 8 level dungeon where by the time they got to level 8 for the boss battle, they had just hit level 5 after about 15-20 sessions.

[@jrxhawks]

At 9:45 you say if they beat the encounter give it to them. I would assume it would be 4400/4 for 1100xp each correct?

[@TheDungeonCoach]

Ahhh Yes yes, I should have 100% mentioned that! You always divide it up amongst the peoiple who participated, so if that is 4 players then divide by 4 but if they had an NPC helping them then I divide by 5 :P

[@thehobbyist7275]

I also like to add small multipliers for critical hits and especially creative solutions. Situations, for example, like banishing a creature, technically ends the encounter even if you didn't kill them. I might reward 3/4 of the XP to the party for doing this. In combat, both for players and intelligent monsters, I always say that running away when things look bad is always an option. If a monster runs, you might get 1/4( I don't count Turn Undead or anything that frightens a creature) Side quest, I feel, should be designed in a way that A) if you just had a level up, players can practice and test their new skills without affecting the plot and B) built in a way that has small XP boosts, but can stack based on approach and defeated monsters. I find this to be most important, whether it's an escort mission, message delivery, exploring/charting unknown territory, negotiating or quelling rumors, going after an assassination target, completing a heist, etc. Or a simple feat of some kind like light a campfire, or something. Edit: Even depending on the PC's personality, motivations, and class, I might either hasten the process with more XP or less if it's something that needs deep thought. A level 2 Paladin for example, isn't gonna reach level 3 super quickly at my table. To me, a Sacred Oath is the most important decision a Paladin needs to reaffirm within themselves and make(for good or bad as I don't restrict the class to LG). Or a Wizard is gonna need time practicing with their spells and managing their spellbook before they can decide what Arcane Tradition they want to study or school of magic they want to be a specialist in. For Bards, I have Bardic College exams that test the Bard's ability when they are on the cusp of or have the XP for level 3 to get accepted to a particular clique due to whatever creatively inspires a Bard to search deeper within the Words of Creation. I do something similar for Rogues and Rangers finding their Enclaves and Guilds that can teach them how to be a Hunter or Assassin for example.

[@jasonp9508]

Nice tip about using the suggested threshold values to assign XP for a homebrew encounter. This seems obvious now, but I hadn’t connected these dots. It will make my arbitrary homebrew XP values make more sense. Thanks!

[@Serutans]

I repsect XP for what it is, but it just does not work for me, as a player or DM. As a DM, it's far too much calculating and deciding - beyond the basics you mention. As written, XP works well for fights that are on a flat plane, with creatures of established CR, with PCs who are build RAW and without any big powerups, etc. However, I like making wacky fight situations, homebrew creatures freeform without spending the extra time fine tuning and determining CR, and I like to give PCs boons and cool magic items. If I did calculate encounter difficulty, it would almost always be Deadly. Also, I don't like that XP drives the pace of the story - if players decide to do some side stuff and spend more time in a story arc should not accelerate the entire campaign. As a player, I hate meta incentives. I love when in-game actions have in-game rewards. NPC alliances, magic items, changes in the world. I don't feel like playing if the main draw is "number go up" (also why I generally don't care that much about gold). As a matter of fact, going back to DMing, I love when my players are there to tell a story with me. I recently started a new campaign and when my group was discussing what system, setting and campaign we want to play next, everyone wanted to continue in my homebrew world. Amazing feeling. I would not be so motivated to make the game fun for them if all they wanted to was get levels + fight bigger creatures.

[@BushBumperBaker]

This. Exactly this. Screw XP. Lmfao The more XP is incorporated, the more it feels like a video game, and that isn't what D&D is. It's a social, interactive storytelling game.

[@samysosa3086]

Personally we used xp at the begining and i found it hard to manage so we tried milestone ! My players just lovedddddd it ❤️ so we stick to it ! They told that they fell more confortable in this context and that it stimulate to find different ways to accomplish stufff ❤️

[@cendresaphoenix1974]

Your players are lucky it sounds like you actually level them up unlike my DM who just makes us wait there for 8 sessions before we bring up we haven't leveled up in 8 sessions

[@battlemapbrawl]

Math is fun! lol I really liked how you applied the exp chart to the difficulty of the social encounter. Makes a lot of sense DC and something to try - Hector

[@Hewhowantstoknow]

I run a combination of both, you talked about running a hybrid of both and am still at the start of the video so we'll see how they compare, my version: I combine all of the following: Regular EXP EXP for gold EXP for ALL encounters, not just combat Session leveling as in the DMG( level every session until level 3 when it becomes every 2nd session, etc. I mostly use it as a guideline to keep myself on track) Milestones for key points in the story. I ask my players at the start of the game if they want to track their own experience or if they want me to do it and tell them when they level. Usually they'll let me track it for myself. But the option is there if they want it. And I make it clear they get EXP for everything they do, not just combat

[@Leondragon06]

I do love how Baldur's Gate III rewarded not just combat but getting thru other things as well with experience! =) It was very different than other games made it so did not feel the need to kill but was cool to see conflict resolve by convo instead and get rewarded with exp as well avoiding combat rather than "punished" for avoiding combat with no exp!

[@Tharky]

I love how nobody recognized the tiny reference to XP to Level 3 in the thumbnail :)

[@Nyrufa]

I remember watching TFS's Natural Onders campaign, and being frustrated that they went through 3-4 sessions without ever leveling up. Despite the fact they were encountering some fairly high level enemies. They started at level 5, and by the end of their 110 episode campaign, I think they only went up to level 7-8?

[@jacoboverstreet8553]

We started using a method at my table similar to Adventure’s league that I’ve been enjoying. Basically you get 1 point per full session you play and need a number of point equal to your proficiency modifier to level up. It’s been a great middle ground of not needing to keep track of exp but also having the same feel as exp leveling.

[@Tysto]

I split the difference and think of it as taking 4 "XP" to get to the next level, and each adventure is worth 1-3 XP depending on length, difficulty, and success. Note that that means it will take about 32 adventures to get from 1st to 20th level, which will probably take a year of IRL play. If you like high-level play, then you need to bump them up a level after every adventure until they get to 12th or 15th.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

XP leveling is fine if you give it out evenly, but then it's essentially the same as milestone. If you don't, and award it individually, it builds animosity from perceived favoritism. Also, XP feels bad then you are 100 xp short of leveling after a big boss fight, then follow it by three sessions on no XP as you go back to town and rest up and investigate the next plot hook. There are no XP awards for roleplaying in the rules, that's inspiration, so now you are into homebrew. I think you should get experience for everything you do in D&D. With Milestone, you can do it when the time feels right, which is rewarding, rather than when the math says it's right. This is why milestone is far superior. It's fair, and it feels good.

[@theberndog]

Sandbox play - use xp Pre-written adventure - milestones I am interested in a hybrid method, just because milestones are easier for DMs, and xp is fun for players (little endorphin addicts) :)

[@Nickelback8469]

I disagree that XP is fun as a player. To me it's just more bookkeeping, and I more greatly appreciate leveling up "when the time is right" than by some arbitrary numbers. It's a lot more satisfying to finish a party goal or an important quest and for the DM to appropriately tell the party they earned a level up than to hit the next level on a few random encounters. Milestone all the way

[@luiken3]

I watched this videa some time ago, and I've implemented it into my most recent game. I think its finally paying off. At the end of the last session I gave out our points, including some bonus' and afterwards I gave them I mentioned how far from the next level they are and immediately one of my players says "Oh yeah, we could hit that next session if we do enough." IF WE DO ENOUGH!!! The reward loop may finally be pushing my players out of the "Follow the DMs tale and hit milestones and into proactive chasing of their own goals." It's really what I wanted. Lol, now, if only I can tempt them into willingly entering dungeon crawl! Lmao.

[@malkavthemad4249]

The biggest issue is that with it is that the clearest guidelines for exp is given for combat, not say a clever rp that tricked a monster. Especially when it intends player characters to expand spells and loose hit points.

[@dittrich04]

He said the link for the calculator is in the description, but I don't see it. Am I just missing it?

[@livingalife8879]

Its the same. Its a 1-2 session gap based on when it would be appropriate to level up. Ive had players level up 2x before resting via monster xp, thematically just make it the next long rest

[@patricklamarre5816]

I'm currently using DnD beyond's encouter builder (beta accessible to all accounts) and it's great ! Just pick monsters that seem interesting, look at the difficulty and xp automatically calculated based on the party's total number of player and levels, then adjust to fit the mood :D

[@christopherknight1890]

one reason I like xp leveling is ...if a party member misses a session that means those that show up will gain a higher share of xp ... it also helps balance the adventure so while players may smash level 1-3 of the adventure once they get to level 4-6 now they are slightly underserved and vs versa a small party will struggle through level 1-3 but be higher level and reap the rewards soring through level 4-6 of the adventure.

[@shawnhuls1606]

I like PDM’s method from the Dungeon Craft channel, and use something similar to it. Basically, it is really simple XP based upon completing objectives and the difficulty of the encounters. Instead of hundreds and thousands of XP awarded, just give 1 point for each objective met. Add 1 XP for each really difficult encounter. At the end of the session each player will get something like 2 to 5 XP. When they reach 10 XP, they level up and their XP resets to 0. It is customizable too. I can make the number of XP higher to move up at higher levels. I can add milestones and other requirements to level up as well. For example, I required my players to do some training with a mentor before they could move up to level 3. Just communicate this clearly to the players beforehand. Really simple to award, simple to understand, provides incentive and progression, and no math involved.

[@therealncast]

I recently began working on creating a tailored West Marches style campaign. Can anyone kindly share their thoughts on incorporating the Dungeon Coach kickstarter rulebook into an already experimental style of D&D?

[@emessar]

Honestly, I just track it as a percentage and have my own guidelines for what to give out. Baseline is generally 10% for a downtime session where there isn't much danger or much accomplished, 15% if there is combat, 20% if it seemed fairly dangerous or if the group made a fair amount of progress, 25-30% for beating a boss. When they get to 100% or more then I subtract 100 from the % and keep going. For my players, they consider leveling far more important than the mechanics behind how or why it happens.

[@przemysawjozwiak144]

Finally someone show me how I can calculate XP to reward my players for social encounters 😁

[@Sutatu]

If I'll tell my group that we'll use EXP instead of Milestone...they will eat me alive...and probably gain 5500 EXP.

[@recordofchaos6682]

Just picked up your wild magic surge for my players and all 3 groups love it! Amazing! I am trying to find your leveling up weapons pdf for my Dragonlance campaigns. Is it in your Almanac or separate? Also is your gem socketing mechanic in the Almanac as well or do i need to grab that pdf seperatly?! Thank you for making my DMing easier!

[@TheFatPunisher]

How is this math to difficult for people??? it's literally just basic addition, most computers / phones have calculators built in... You killed 3 goblins, they give 50 exp each.... award 150 exp. am I crazy? is this somehow actually difficult for some people like what? You can just award exp at the end of big quests as well, if you want a PC to level up, then just give them a chunk of exp. Milestone sucks because it's like taking the "game" from dnd. You might as well just not even do attack rolls at that point and let the DM tell you a story. Dont even need players lol, write a book.

[@nachschub4836]

Completly agree I never do milestones unless I run official modules that use milestones. I love XP and just added a rule to give XP for exploration and social encounters and if they avoid a battle they get the exact same xp as if they kill them.

[@goose6752]

I liked the idea of just using the standard minimum amounts for an encounter; but, I think I would decide the difficulty of the encounter after the fight; so that if they totally chump 'The Boss', they'd end up getting xp for and easy fight instead of a deadly one since that's what it actually was; or if a handful of kobolds get start dropping PC's left & right because they got lured into a 'minefield' and surprised, they'd get credit for a deadly encounter; or even just getting hosed by the dice could ramp up the difficulty reward. Similarly for bypassing an encounter with stealth; if all the PC's have good stealth skills and they use pass w/o a trace, well "That was easy!" Although, I generally try to do stealth on a metal gear model: 1) fail puts a guard on alert, 2) goes into search mode, 3) ! Calls for back up, Roll initiative.

[@ssnitro]

XP leveling all the way. Milestone is just lazy imo, which is fine if that’s something you don’t want to bother tracking, but from my experience, people enjoy getting something from their game, even if it’s just xp. Being able to reward players bonus xp for using creative RP, creative combat maneuvers, or exploration also helps to encourage these types of behaviors.

[@Mikeymikesyeah]

I have a question, let's say a group of 4 players defeat a CR 5 monster. The XP for that is 1800. Do you divide that by 4 and that's how much XP each player gets or does each player earn 1800?

[@ori7647]

I like to stablish a few milestones along the path, to my players find out. What I mean by this is that, every time they find important pieces of a plot, useful information, discover important secrets (to the case they're researching into) and even make some good RP, they get a milestone XP. I do like to calculate XP for combats, rather then using a table like this, since most of my combats I use above the deadly difficulty, if I intend to have a single combat per session, essentially meaning that they will be exhausting a lot of resources, and that death chances are very real. What I do use instead of the normal difficulty table, is the XP Threshold for a daily amount of XP, as a basis. So this way I know that my usual session will be a calm one, or it will be essentially another trauma train for my players to experience. But honestly... I might incorporate that table to essentially determine how easily it is to find these secrets, and how much relevant they're for the overall plot. So... That was a good bit of information. Thanks friend!

[@ori7647]

Also, I agree that math is fun.

[@c.harrison3104]

I honestly think that both methods have their place in D&D and that so long as you are happy with the choice or find one works better than the other than you should stick with it. I personally sort of use a combination of both styles, I take the idea of the XP thresholds showcased in this video to determine how difficult a combat scenario will be to keep things balanced. But I will use milestones or number of sessions to determine a level up. I find that more often than not I run combat and traps that are designed to be harder so if I kept with the idea of XP then they may level up every 3 sessions. Which is were the milestones come in as I usually plan to have some kind of pivotal event occur every 5-8 sessions and then with that culmination they get there level up. Though I actually have a question, I find that a lot of combat is always you are attacked by a group of enemies that you now must defend against why do we not find situations were instead we are attacked in waves? I notice that even in situations when exploring a cave, tomb, castle, etc; that at not point do we usually see enemies being reinforced. But then I also wonder how would you effectively create a scenario like this?

[@BushSage]

I like exp but I'm trying a system where we keep the amounts low at first. Like the most XP required to level up is 500, the least is 50.

[@FolkenZero]

I run a hybrid system where players can still feel they are growing and know how close they are to levelling, but I can easily reward progressing the story. Players need an amount of xp equal to their level to level up, so 1 point at lvl 1, 2 at lvl 2, 7 at lvl 7 etc. I award xp for killing bosses, solving particularly challenging puzzles or problems, saving a town from a disaster, etc. Levelling up naturally slows down at higher levels even if some big bads award multiple points of xp.

[@broke_af_games9661]

I'm literally 30 seconds and commenting. I love XP more than milestone by far. It rewards attendance, and I think it's fair because those players put a risk coming to the table with their characters. I have a group and like many groups some of the people have a hard time with things. One player who missed a couple games and showing levels of anxiety, and when people suffer from severe anxiety that can create avoidance, which meant she missed even more games. And was quickly being left behind. This isn't a big deal because every time she came to the table she would essentially, quickly raise a level because what I did was allow People level up during an adventure. I bought XP at the end of the sessions so while she is level two, and the others are level five, one combat basically would have leveled it up at the end of the session. So out of the blue one day she sent me a message saying "can I play an NPC? Like just a basic stat block so I don't have to worry about leveling up or character class abilities or anything like that" I told her sure, no problem. Let's make something. What do you think of a homunculus? The players are going on a long journey and their patron would like to keep tabs on them.... She hasn't missed a game since. I made a special start block for her to play, it's not a standard homograph and I gave it the ability to read wizard scrolls. But because she's so weak, I don't really count her into the combat encounter. I guess I just want to share because we often look at these things as black and white, XP or milestone and very rarely do we ever consider the nuances. I cherish her, she's a great person and I would rather see her at my table than not.

[@BlackLanternMaui]

Hey Coach. I am thinking of joining your patreon. I really enjoy your content. I was wondering if I join to I get your past playbooks too?

[@robsutherland9284]

XP's great, I'm interested in the mixed method

[@fightingcorsair7297]

You hit on every reason I like experience point levelling. Personally I love watching the "progress bar." Heck, even when installing software on my computer I can watch the progress bar with eager anticipation. Milestone feels arbitrary and you only move forward at the whim of the DM. I am playing in a campaign where the DM seems to only be handing out experience points for combat. I really feel like going full murder hobo in it.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

As an Old School DM, in addition to Monster and Treasure xp rewards, I award a 1%-3% to next level award for an extra spectacular action, idea or game play by the player. This rewards medium to higher level players who have the mountain of exp to gain to level up. As for the math, nothing better than learn while you earn. It is basic maths. Players should already know how to add. They sure total up damage they inflict on monsters quickly enough. Tracking exp to next level is not a big deal.

[@brettcardon4552]

Every time he says "calculate," "calculation," or some other variation of the word, take a drink. 🍻 Thanks for the video!

[@TheDungeonCoach]

I’m surprised you were able to write a coherent comment then lol! It was probably a lot haha 😂

[@brettcardon4552]

@@TheDungeonCoach oh ish wuz nothin...trush me, I'm fine....(proceeds to pass out)

[@harrywhiteley89]

XP is great, I think some people only see Combat XP games and don't like that which I get... But you can hand players personal and group story goal, trap, RP, exploration, money (X GP=1 XP) and many other types of xp that you can think of

[@TheCarlosLuna]

I award XP, but I give it out as milestones. I generally have characters level up from first to second level in the first session, from second to third in the second session, from third to fourth in two sessions, and from that point on, each level is gained every three sessions. I divide the ammount of Xp characters need to level up by the ammount of sessions needed to level up, and I award that ammount of XP to each character each session, I award half of that XP if that session is too uneventful. This has worked well for me, and it allows characters to level at a pace that doesn't feel too slow, but at the same time, makes the characters move forward to progress the story.

[@Cxdfc]

Much more interested in your 3rd method because i use a hybrid as well

[@slothmoth2389]

Hey I really love this idea but there is one part I am very confused about. I know this is RAW in the Basic Rules but why does the party gain more experience with more players? Surely adding more players makes most encounters easier, so why would they gain more experience?

[@slothmoth2389]

Just to elaborate a bit: Going from Level 3 to Level 4 requires 1,800xp (from 900 to 2,700). A party of 5 players that *just* turned level 3 before boss fight would immediately gain 2,000xp and level up to 4. It feels like you would level at least twice as fast as you do in milestone games. It is common for modules to suggest milestone levels after a boss fight but they don't often level up right before a boss fight too. All the work it took to get to the boss (since the previous milestone) is considered to be included in the level up you gain after defeating the boss.

[@Timonsaylor]

I use XP because it's an easy way for me to keep leveling slowed without having to keep track of how many sessions have passed. I use "current level x1000" though. Leveling up after 1 session feels stupid for the kind of game I run

[@ekkys04]

My campaigns end up all over the place because of the players decisions but even more so with ideas that I develop as we go. With milestone, it feels like any battles done outside of the main plot is a waste of time. Plus it's great to reward exp for handling situations without the use of combat (as rare as that is haha) I could go on and on about why I prefer xp but milestone's fine too, just not my cup of tea as a DM

[@Nickelback8469]

With XP though it encourages the party to go looking for a fight. If fighting isn't encouraged through XP rewards, the party won't feel tempted to cause unnecessary violence, and will be more likely to peruse more creative solutions and maybe actually try to talk their way past the trolls guarding the bridge instead of just blasting everything with a fireball.

[@ekkys04]

@@Nickelback8469 thats why you should reward them for handling situations without combat. Whenever my players talk their way out of a fight (or whatever means besides combat), I tend to reward their ingenuity with the same amount of xp as if they had actually gone through with the fight; sometimes less but still, xp reward. It helps to let them know this ahead of time too so they know it's technically always an option. And anytime my players want to randomly gain xp through combat, there's usually a traveling arena or underground fight club that they can find or come across

[@Nickelback8469]

@@ekkys04 Milestone leveling can still be applied to side quests, and there are other alternatives to rewarding accomplishments than just XP. Gold, standing within the world, and gear are just some examples of how your players can be rewarded for their outings without derailing the balance you've planned for future encounters. Side quests can also be accounted for within Milestone leveling. If the party succeeds on a secondary plotline outside of the main story they can still be granted a level. Milestone isn't foolproof, a bad DM can still easily have a bad game that's unsatisfying and poorly paced. But the same can be applied to XP. As a player, XP leveling isn't a dealbreaker, but it's just a constant annoyance for book keeping and is a constant reminder of meta progression. As a DM, Milestone just gives me more control over the experience my players have, and I've never had complaints about being too controlling or "railroady" over their experiences.

[@MattNeisinger]

As a DM, I personally don't have a preference. All methods are good and valid. XP gives players something to track, but more for the DM to keep track of, as well. Milestone is easier to track, but could feel like the leveling is at the whim of the DM. A hybrid approach, like giving XP for accomplishing certain goals, gives the benefit of players being able to track XP and DMs being able to award bonus XP for clever, creative play and/or competing optional objectives, is kind of the best of both worlds.

[@marjiba4303]

Love the XP to Lvl 3 reference

[@allenmcnight8576]

Since you have to divide the total XP by the number of characters, why bother multiplying at all? Easy encounter for 1st level? Each PC gets 25XP. Deadly? Each PC gets 100 XP. Easy-peasy.

[@josephcarriveau9691]

XP, all the way, generally heavily modified to incentivize the sort of character behavior that fits the tone of the campaign best. Milestones are... convenient, I guess, but I am an old man who misses the pillars Wizards doesn't talk about and the pillars they've rendered trivial through rules iteration and to me they feel like something you might want to use if "getting to the end" is the goal as opposed to "playing the game". I tend towards the 1E and 2E style where you get more of your XP for making it back to town with plunder from an adventure and completing "story awards" from quests than you do from fighting monsters, give out full XP for any version of overcoming a monster other than not ever knowing it existed because you didn't go down that fork, half for fighting and failing and needing to retreat, and it's entirely likely that people will end up at different levels over time because unless there's a huge gap I don't like using catchup rules or just giving out XP for not showing up and that hasn't caused a problem yet.

[@bsparky01]

DC, was that a reference to South Parks WOW episode with the boars? 😋

[@imabry1]

Great advice. I love xp, but milestone is just so easy. I wish my plays would track xp so I could reward them for things outside of combat.

[@trevorclapham5571]

I have only ever used xp. I calculate all the experience points when I make the adventure and just tell the players how much experience they each get at the end of each session. All they have to do is add to their previous total. Basis arithmetic and being able to read the class xp chart in the PHB is all they need to do. This is grade school level math and I have to laugh at those who say this is complicated. I don’t mean to come across as insulting but really?

[@evelynda5235]

I think i use intuitive milestone. Lol. I dont have specific milestones. Once things start getting mildley stale then level up.

[@spikebeargrin1617]

Thats a great table!

[@captainrelyk]

The fact that 5e only awards xp for solving situations violently is why I use milestone Cause the fact that xp isn’t rewarded for solving a situation peacefully is why that system sucks. They had to change it to milestone in AL to lessen murder hoboing Also… it can be unfair to certain party members depending on how it’s run. If it’s based on who kills the enemy… a life cleric who is focusing on healing allies is gonna be stuck at the beginning levels due to not killing anyone.

[@duncanmacneil4759]

Milestone FTW(for the win)! Much easier, cinematic and story based. I would like to hear about your 3rd method for EXP, Keep up the good work!

[@dereigner3822]

I wasted hours on thinking about how to handle Leveling. Milestones? Classik 20million exp for next level? What do i hate, what do i like? Giving out Tokens? Well after all that, i tryed a lot in my games and found the perfect way, to kill everything that i hate. 1. Downscaling: You need like 10 EXP for the first level. 2. New Value: Monster come in categories like Spam, Miniboss, Boss, Worldender and give only EXP in 1-10 value. 3. More Ways: I added a lot more ways to get EXP besides Missions and Monsterkills, like doing a mission fast gives more EXP. 4. Invisible Level: I don't tell Players how much EXP they get. They just get told, when they reached 50% and 100% 5. Halfeway Done: They get a smal Levelup when they reach 50% and the real big one at 100% 6. Traits: If they killed enouth of an Enemy, they get the "Killer x" Trait. AKA they get 1 EXP less from that Enemy. Like they get still dmg by the worthless Enemy, because 1000 Flumphs will kill you, but they don'T gain any experice by them. After all, by the time you killed so much of one type, you know how to defeat them fast an easy. But to balance that, they deal more dmg to that kind of enemy. Best PArt, they don't ask after each Monster "Did we Level up" cuz they get told when they Level up. It works so much better, even if its just the EXP method in a little smaller :D

[@larrymurphy4214]

Very helpful thank you 🙂

[@perrygrosshans8537]

Okay, quick question for your calculator. You say "Give THEM 4,440xp for a deadly encounter." Do you mean EACH player gets 4,400, or the PARTY gets 4,400 and then you need to divide that by the number of players to get each xp value? As I remember (although it has been a while) when you did xp with earlier editions, you always totaled the xp for the PARTY and then divided that total by the number of players. But you weren't too clear in your explanation (and I listed to the later half of this video twice to see if I missed it...) As someone who has run with both milestone and xp over many years of running, I have to say I prefer milestone as it just seems more organic for a story. I totally get your note that players may be confused about when the milestones might hit, and of course that is going to be party to party and even player to player experience and preference. Some players are more concerned with the story and don't worry about leveling up, but lots of players love story but also are HYPER FOCUSED on reaching that next level, lol. I'm looking forward to your hybrid way of leveling!

[@talesoftableiii1584]

Darn it coach, you make a good case for experience.

[@MarshmallowMadnesss]

I hate XP leveling. My group is obliterating my encounters. I'm reserving the right to hold the level up to match their accomplishments, failures, pitfalls, and learning.

[@backonlazer791]

That doesn't necessarily sound like the XP is the problem here.

[@ekkys04]

Sounds like you should beef up your encounters and include tactics and/or positioning advantageous to the enemy. Also, just in case your not, throw in fights before the big bad boss so that some of players resources are used up - and always have minions included with the big boss, even if they spend their first turn summoning them haha

[@fightingcorsair7297]

Check out "The Monsters Know What They’re Doing" by Keith Ammann. Great tactics to make your monster encounters more interesting and challenging for your players.

[@3of6mylove]

I'd be okay with xp if it didn't cause level disparity between players. I simply can't abide level differences.

[@djbslectures]

Yes. Third method!

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

My favorite? Exp. My players'? Milestone

[@kiffley]

I respectfully disagree. personally I think XP leveling is just a bit harder because you have to keep track of another set of numbers in this already complex game and if you don't keep track of how much xp the party has and how much until they get to the next level because either you or the players forgot to write it down you can easily lose track, and If you use a lot of homebrew for new monsters and stuff you have to come up with other how much xp for killing the snake bull hypbrid, and if you're running a low level campaign where if they were higher level it would screw everything up and you throw a huge monster at the party to make them run away but they just grab 400 molotov cocktails and throw them at him via a cannon they could just suddenly become like level 10 in this campaign where they're supposed to be helping the local nun with her flower store if you give it out based off of how much the books say they give for a battle. But I can see where you're coming from milestone does make it just feel like. "alright im walking across a field, and uhhhh oh I just gained the ability to summon god that's cool" but you can make milestones feel impactful, my cousin is running a campaign where we got sent into a cave and he told us one session that once we reach the next part of the cave which we would do next session we would level up and we had a talking hat which also talked about leveling up in previous sessions causing a sense of proggression.

[@quinnnorman9916]

I can sum up why I prefer to use milestone leveling in one word: pacing

[@chrislundgren182]

I am in a milestone game right now and frankly, I hate it. I am not all into combat-only games I love exploration dungeon crawling and finding treasure and solving problems through diplomacy or thinking my way out of a situation first (Combat within limits is still fun too). I feel cheated out of progression rewards with Milestone so frankly I prefer gaining XP its as you say fair and frankly not hard.

[@jackj08]

The encounter difficulty table is too wildly chaotic to be used if you are looking for a smoothly-increasing number of encounters per each level up For instance, to go from level 9 to level 10, you would have to complete 29 easy encounters (15 medium, 10 hard, or 7 deadly) For level 10 to level 11, you need 35 easy encounters (18 medium, 11 hard, or 8 deadly) But then for level 11 to level 12, you only need 19 easy enounters!! (10 medium, 7 hard or 5 deadly) While AN experience point model would have the benefits described here, THE 5E experience point model is insanely unbalanced and arbitrary, and should not be used. I'm interested to see your third model video, but I'll be sticking to milestone until then!

[@Neth91]

i prefer milestone over exp. the reason is metagaming.. imagine a group who is close to a level up. lets say they can chose between the main plot where they know they will fight a boss or do a side quest. the exp leveling group will probably do the side quest to level up and then go into a boss fight. the others will follow the plot

[@cameronpeterson5961]

Just starting the video so I’ll come back with any more feedback I have, but one thing I wanna say is slow it a bit my guy; that timeout for your self-plug was super abrupt. There isn’t anything wrong with self promotion, but just try and be easier with it next time as it was kinda jarring.

[@Wiseblood2012]

I just found out the pre made adventure has milestone XP. I find it abhorrent. It appears that I level, not be cause I earned it, but because the story dictates it. That is both insulting and aggravating. Next thing you tell me is NPC asshat has plot protection. Is this a game that we tell stories about our exploits? Or is this a game where we jump through the DM’s hoops until the final page. Fuck that.

[@zing_zippers]

Now I gotta see that third video! WHAT'S YOUR METHOD?!?!?!?!?

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

I like experience leveling I like the math I do think milestone has some uses though

[@punishedwhispers1218]

XP does what milestone does and more. Feel like they SHOULD level right now because its a climax of character development? Give them enough XP to level up. They feel like they arent being rewarded for their little tasks? Well they're getting XP.

[@strawberreez]

I hate pure Milestone leveling because of bad experiences, so everything I'm about to say is anecdotal. Firstly, holy crap, the amount of hate I have gotten on Reddit and KZbin for merely mentioning my dislike for Milestone leveling... All I can say is, godspeed, Dungeon Coach. That intro surely triggered somebody, and I hope you are okay. But my experiences with Milestone leveling has always been either: 1) Side quests do not matter, so if you get distracted, guess what? You're putting off leveling, huehuehue, bad player. 2) The DM just forgets to award the level, so we miss the "window" to level and then they just put it off so we level x2 next time it comes around. Really bugs the hell out of me. 3) Some combination of the two. I don't use a pure XP leveling either, for the record, but every single thing matters. I don't stress about the value amounts that I add to things, just whatever my gut tells me is right. And I also keep these numbers HIDDEN. So my players don't know how much xp conversating vs fighting got them. I also don't bother to calculate anything until after a session is through as part of my post-campaign writeup. I like nice even numbers, so if a combat gives 4329 xp for whatever reason, the RP that took place afterward would give them 201xp so that I get a nice even 4530. Zeroes = easier math. This also means every single thing that they do matters, and I emphasize this in my games. Conversations, RP, negotiations, combat, murder-hoboing... But doing everything ~in secret~ means that I don't need to have a number to give out right as soon as a session ends, and it also means that I can sit down and fiddle with the numbers when *I'M* in the mood, which for me, is a pretty big deal. And, last thing it means, I can also award that level (once they pass that magic number) when they are taking a long rest or even right before a big boss battle to get them feeling hyped up for it or whenever the heck I want.

[@silvertheelf]

From my own Experience (pun intended) Milestone is more interesting to me. I have hybridized the systems a tiny bit.

[@OlderSnake]

This feels like a very complex way of giving the players a sense of how close they are to levelling up.

[@cendresaphoenix1974]

I've never used milestones and had fun

[@raremineral178]

I've always just used Session-Based Advancement, leveling up the players every 2, 3, or 4 sessions.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Experience leveling is the most famous kind of leveling. I can see that this works as an external motivation. There is a reward with Skinner box. Yada yada. However there are drawbacks. I had bad experience with video games where I couldn't defeat whatever the next area was. So I would just grind for experience. Grinding is so boring. In DND the experience is calculated by hand. The numbers are way too much to handle. I have strong math skills, and I still think this is too much. Number crunching isn't inherently fun. It is a means to an end, which is fun. Sorry not sorry. If I wanted to give nice rewards after combat, I would rather award loot. Milstone leveling is so much better.

[@keithulhu]

I prefer XP to Level 3. I'll see myself out now.

[@schylerfontenot7358]

All ways of leveling up are the worst! But also the best! Wait, I’m confused?!

[@guamae]

When I started running 5e, I did Experience Leveling, because I like math. And it worked pretty well for a long time; but then I started buffing the monsters because I gave a lot of neat items/abilities/bonuses to my players... and the encounters started to be worth MASSIVE amounts of XP, and I realized that if I kept them experience-leveling, they'd be sprinting through levels, and wouldn't be able to experience each level. And it morphed into Milestone leveling.