The Valyrian Dragons Bigger Than Balerion & Vhagar

The Valyrian Freehold was a great territory that spanned much of the continent of Essos, but has since fallen to ruin, approximately one hundred years before Aegon's Conquest, when it was brought down by a cataclysmic event known as the Doom of Valyria. Check out the entire video on our channel to learn whether or not there were larger Valyrian dragons than Balerion and Vhagar before Aegon's Conquest.

[@trehubb6144]

With the Targaryens being a low ranked family on Valyria it definitely wouldn't surprise me if that there were dozens of dragons bigger then a Balerion or Vhagar

[@Kai_soze]

It's true. The elite high ranking Valyrian families all had dragons bigger than Balerion

[@ericborder5272]

@@Kai_soze no proof of that in the books !

[@AshePBlack]

@@ericborder5272 problem is got books are more cannon, house of dragon books are maesters gossips and show is truth. I want to learn more on this too. But it is likely dragons were bigger earlier on, then too, dragons came from mixing wyvern and fireworms

[@ericborder5272]

@@AshePBlack That's just a theory from barth, and I like it. But she is incoherent with the idea that there is dragon in asshai, and there is.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@ericborder5272 there is?

[@inspiringbestie]

We rlly need a prequel about old Valyria like HBO come on how epic would that be

[@williamgatewood4584]

Luna I totally agree

[@gherve222]

not enough budget

[@sakshattiwari6831]

Would be super expensive though. Like super.

[@Ambelica]

A little redundant tho

[@sakshattiwari6831]

Well for now, a good enough flash back for Aegon's conquest would do too if they can somehow wrap it in HOTD lol. But HOTD itself will have to have so much content to be complete, even glimpses of the conquest would do for now lol.

[@Cappellano]

The Cannibal was a wild dragon that came to Westeros on his own separately from the Targaryens. It is highly likely that other dragons dispersed elsewhere before the doom.

[@BleedingGrafitti]

That's just an urban legend created by seafolk (which is almost never true). Westeros had never seen a dragon until Aegon's arrival. The Cannibal most certainly would've been spotted at least once if he actually showed up before the Targaryens. Most likely the Cannibal was meant for Meagor, who rejected the hatchling and chose Balerion during his reign.

[@Cappellano]

@@BleedingGrafitti Yes I am familiar with the fan theory that the Cannibal may have been selected for Maegor the Cruel, but that is not canon and there is no certainty which dragon (if any) would have been specifically presented to Maegor before he claimed Balerion. I agree that the smallfolk of Dragonstone may not be the best historians, but there is often truth within the legends. That being said, we will need to wait for the Winds of Winter to learn more.

[@carlosandleon]

@@BleedingGrafittihe said separately- not before

[@JizzMasterTheZeroth]

Did he come on his own though? The Velaryon's arrival in Westeros predates that of the Targaryen's as well - and they're situated on Driftmark, right next to Dragonstone..

[@jmeds94]

@@BleedingGrafitti I agree on this. I think we will see an undead Cannibal as the Night King’s mount.

[@Sannabon92]

I wish Martin would do a book on pre-doom Valyria. I would love to know about the culture, the dragons, and the other creatures in the region

[@tyrannicaltypomichaeltester]

100 that's what I want too. To see where it all started

[@Smart-alecky]

I suppose then that the budget would be enormous! Creating large castles, and even larger dragons I think is no joke.

[@juliusfishman7222]

They can do like a show about the ryhona war and quenn nemeyria

[@diactionza5864]

Some things are better untouched

[@zakariaferaoun3179]

@@diactionza5864 facts. It's better that valeria stays mysterious

[@caykahve5869]

Everyone keeps getting this wrong. By the time Balerion died, he was insanely big. Vhagar during the dance was getting close to Balerions size DURING the conquest. He didnt stop growing until he died which is during Viserys reign. Vhagar when she died isn't close to Balerion when he died..

[@jarodshepard1046]

Thank you! Yes Balerion would’ve been much bigger since he had another almost 100 years to grow. Vhagar was almost the size of Balerion during the conquest. She died during the dance so never reached his size. I wish they would show old Valyria & all of the dragons they had

[@TaeSunWoo]

THIS.

[@RsDv5]

Balerion stopped growing either due to old age or being in captivity.

[@Al.Youtubing]

Wow! That is MIND BOGGLING! I never knew that detail. Bro really must have been MASSIVE then!

[@ginorvdw]

​@RsDv5 It's specifically stated in the books that a dragon does not stop growing as long as its ever increasing demand for food is met. So no, he would not have stopped growing due to old age. Hell, vhaegar is pretty old and is the largest one alive besides the wild cannibal

[@8293nokinho]

In books it's mentioned that dragons liked dragonstone more then other places, and they grow faster there, becouse it's vulcanic island.

[@fenryr_22]

Yep but I think they were still smaller than Valyria cause volcans are cool but the 14 Flames are cooler, and they weren’t Valyrian magic

[@petrzapletal7450]

not "then", but than*

[@NevG27]

Man, I'd love to see a show about Old Valyria. The Targaryon's before the fall, as well as the other prominent houses and a bunch of dragons. Since Winds is likely a pipedream at this point, hopefully GRRM can work on that before he croaks. A few seasons detailing Old Valyria, the fall, and finally culminating with Aegon's conquest.

[@lmatt88]

The Targaryens weren't a prominent house at all.

[@NevG27]

@@lmatt88 Even better then. Seeing houses that out-prominent even the Targs would be awesome.

[@markallenhubahib1171]

that would be very expensive considering the cgi needed

[@rylanhavranek892]

@@markallenhubahib1171An animated series would be really cool. Still expensive no doubt but hopefully not enough to take the idea off the table

[@nyotauhura7412]

A show about Old Valyria would be slavery, rape, more slavery, blood sacrifices, and more slavery and incest. Yuk.

[@dragonballsuper1519]

George RR Martin confirmed there were Dragons in Valyria bigger than Balerion: “My brother found this thing on Valyria,” Victarion told the thralls. “Think how big the dragon must’ve been to bear two of these upon his head. Bigger than Vhagar or Meraxes, bigger than Balerion the Black Dread.” - Victarion Greyjoy in The Winds of Winter

[@SleepParty30]

Wait, you're quoting a fucking book that is three decades away from getting published??

[@dragonballsuper1519]

@@SleepParty30 He released chapters.

[@taharqa332]

It's fiction so yeah...why wouldn't he say that. Anything is possible with fiction.

[@6whiteshadows]

Well Victarion claimes he has been to Valyria and has returned with several artifacts, but that's highly doubtful. It's kind of established that the doom still rules Valyria. So GRRM didn't confirm anything.

[@dragonballsuper1519]

@@6whiteshadows Victarion as a highborn commander most likely would have visited the Red Keep at-least once in his life for some kind of royal event or tournament and have seen the remains of Balerion, hence he would have had a good reference with regards to that Valyrian Dragon and how it big it probably was based on the size of its horn.

[@thebactrian7]

The dragons didn’t necessarily become smaller in every successive generation, although none reached Balerion size the 3rd generation dragons like Meleys was not smaller than some 2nd generation dragons like Silverwing and Dreamfyre, given Meleys was around 30-40 years younger she would’ve definitely surpassed them and she lived in the dragon pit her whole life

[@octoberboiy]

No Meleys was in Driftmark for quite some time.

[@aclock2]

True, Drogon was considered very Big for his age.

[@thebactrian7]

@@aclock2 I’m referring to the books because in canon he was the size of a horse at 6 so average

[@thebactrian7]

@@octoberboiy yea but tpitmajority of her life she was in the pit

[@shazamzornes440]

@@thebactrian7 Drogon is about the size of Arrax, Luke and Arrax could barely fly, and Danny flew with Drogon out of the pits, Drogon being free to eat anything and fly wherever, and the circumstances of his birth

[@liamcollins9183]

Did the later dragons really get smaller, or did they just not reach their potential because many of them died young during the Dance of Dragons? Balerion is the only dragon confirmed to have died of old age and was at least 208 years old in 94 AC, but maybe older (we don't when he was born, just that it was in Valyria before the Targaryens left in 114 BC), and Vhagar was close at 180 years old. Vermithor and Silverwing were both pretty huge at roughly 100 years old, and Caraxes and Meleys were both ~80 years old. Imagine how big these dragons could have all become if they'd lived another century.

[@AmaryIIion]

Yeah but balerion spent around 40 years in the pit which is very bad for dragons as they need to fly, and he was pretty badly wounded. He'd be able to live longer under better conditions.

[@kennethgonzalez3618]

I agree. I don't think there's enough evidence to prove that magic made them bigger when I believe GRRM said they all would continue to grow if they were fed enough and free enough. They only grew smaller as the Targaryens chained them

[@andaltargren9015]

Valerian didn’t die of old age. He went back to and something fucked him up really bad and he never fully recovered after

[@nialljones3227]

@@kennethgonzalez3618 I agree with you as it is said in the books that upon the birth of Danys dragons magic truly returned to the world which could mean that dragons are conduits aka magic made felsh

[@Mayor.Of.Eville]

@@andaltargren9015 Balerion got those wounds after bringing Aerea back with the flame worms. She died in 54AC He had several riders after that time since he died in 94AC. There is a theory that Balerion had been slowly poisoned before his “Natural” death.

[@TheDeadlyKnight]

Euron’s dragon-horn was fashioned from the horn of a dragon so massive, it had to be larger than Balerion. - -At least the book characters speculate it to be so.

[@skylargray455]

Looking at Caraxes who was a sleek, serpentine dragon one can imagine at least some of the higher ranking great Dragonlords of Old Valyria must've possessed dragons as sleek and serpentine as Caraxes, but closer to Smaug's size and level of destructive power.

[@jim_kc_8301]

caraxes was deformed, so maybe its rare

[@u.v.s.5583]

@@jim_kc_8301 Says who? Dumb Westerosi maesters who have only seen like 20 living dragons in their entire lives?

[@ands3227]

lol, Smaug is in a league of his own.

[@PrincepratapsinghRawat-cw5em]

​@@ands3227he is just as big as vhagar

[@christianayers622]

To be fair the reason the dragons size drops by generation is cause they all killed eachother before they could grow. Dragonstone is one of the last viable dragon habitats. They also got smaller from the dragon pit. The dragons are fine without Valyria, it's the Targaryens who needed the blood magic.

[@moonjaehui]

I think it was Aurion Belaerys's dragon (presumably Terrax) who is already described as a "huge dragon" around the time on the Doom. Aurion went back to Valyria shortly after the Doom with 30k Qohori troops on the back of this "huge dragon" and made himself the first emperor of Valyria before vanishing with his army, but there's nothing written about what happened to his dragon. Imagine how large that dragon could've grown if it dwelt there among the ruins by the time Balerion went back with Aerea...

[@authoritariangentleman7570]

Is this in the books somewhere or just from ck2 AGOT?

[@macewindu8093]

@@authoritariangentleman7570 it’s mentioned in “A World of Ice and Fire” I believe.

[@sarthakdhyani4380]

Well Balerion did have Gashes and Open Wounds across his body when he and Aerea Returned so you never know 👀

[@lemnajcavite]

@@authoritariangentleman7570 they based everything they put in that Submod on the books when it released. Both A World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood and some of the info mentioned by GRRM in interviews.

[@pankratos5017]

@@sarthakdhyani4380 I reckon Balerion ran into the Cannibal when he passed Dragonstone on his way back to King's Landing. Those wounds were fresh, still smoking, and Cannibal would be the only creature capable of inflicting such wounds. Balerion had older scars, which were probably inflicted by some monster in Valyria, prompting his return to Westeros. My theory, at least.

[@leonardbrazil5497]

It’s a shame to say but the vhagar size calculations are now void since the designing team confirmed that vhagar was 150 meters long

[@zalanalbert8582]

they said her size was 150m ,meaning the Vhagar's wingspan is 150 m

[@mindq4328]

150m wingspan would be more accurate, lengthwise she would be too damn huge to even climb and the person would barely be even seen

[@leonardbrazil5497]

@@zalanalbert8582 I thought that aswell but I checked it multiple times and from the way it was worded it is indeed supposed to be her length

[@leonardbrazil5497]

@@mindq4328 I thought 150 meters long was way to big aswell because she dosnet actually look that big but from the way they worded it by the looks off it they did mean her actual length that’s what I’m gonna believe until they say it’s her wingspan either way it Dosent bother me but personally I don’t really like dragons that are mountain sized her being 90 meters long seemed to big to me

[@taliajay1043]

What about the Cannibal? He was on dragonstone way before the Targarians were.

[@gravestone7470]

it says Vhagar is almost the same size as Balerion was during the conquest. Aegons conquest only lasted 2 years During the conquest Balerion was already 100 years old and lived for another 108 years After the conquest which would mean Balerion would almost be 2x the size of vhagar. I keep hearing people say "Vhagar was almost as Balerion during the conquest" but yet seem to forget Balerion lived for an additional 108 years after the events of the conquest.

[@magnarcreed3801]

Though they probably grew slower the more they aged.

[@Valkaneer]

What were dragons this big eating and how could they sustain such large massive creatures? I don't think many people consider how much food it would take these dragons to live.

[@eamonlyons8318]

Each other.

[@helixxia9320]

true. i think maybe that since they are magical creatures they possibly need less calories than a realistic carnivore would in our world. idk or else they would be doing nothing that eat sheep/horses/cattle all day and be impossible to keep

[@jaso7839]

Exactly this + gravity

[@king_thanos_2116]

They did show that in the new season of Hotd that the dragons eat a massive amount of food and its hurting the livestock supplies of the smallfolk

[@InvictusMatrix]

I'd say they fed entire herds of livestock to each dragon. Valyrians were (allegedly) shepherds before they were dragonriders, plus they had the Dothraki Sea to the north which would give them a lot of grazing land to work with.

[@halo-halo9244]

This pretty much explains why Dany's Dragons grew pretty fast, because they were born out of magic. I've been looking for this answer for a while and I've never seen a youtuber address this issue.

[@SaeedUrRehman1]

That’s just in the show tho. Every season they were made bigger because it looked cool. In the books the dragons are the same size as season 5. Drogon just about can carry dany in the books.

[@halo-halo9244]

@@SaeedUrRehman1 oh I haven't read the books, perhaps they did made some changes.

[@SaeedUrRehman1]

@@halo-halo9244 would defo recommend them. There’s a lot happening that the show left out

[@halo-halo9244]

@@SaeedUrRehman1 I was thinking of reading it but not a reader person. Might read the first book and would just end there. Also I have a problem following events and remembering names so I might not understand the whole thing. 😅

[@SaeedUrRehman1]

@@halo-halo9244 it is a big series lol

[@no.30alien78]

I wish we could witness Aegon riding Belerion on the screen. Man, that would be so fucking epic.

[@Anthooyant89]

I read a theory on a forum, about how the Targaryen's dragons were bred only for war, and that other dragon rider families had different types of dragons for things like the use of blood magic.

[@nialljones3227]

I think the Targaryen's dragons were mixed because ceraxes,drogon and maleys look fiercer compared to syrax and vermax who looked more like dragons meant for pleasure riding and they also looked softer especially Syrax

[@ChadSmith-nq8ty]

we keep goign backwards in the story haha. what a glorious series to watch forwards from scratch for people in 10-20 years

[@gavinperry8433]

Targaryens were minor lords almost ignored.... So we can imagine how big and ferocious dragons in old valyria were 🤯

[@jasonhuibers2315]

It would be interesting to find out what had hurt Balerion and left the 9ft gash in his side when he came back from the unknown

[@eamonlyons8318]

Another dragon. They ate each other.

[@DarksideGmss0513]

Aurion's dragon. That's who it's theorized to be.

[@americanandpinay]

I think it was a firewyrm, others believe it was another, much larger, dragon.

[@camerongooch9606]

I believe balerion is roughly as big as a dragon can get for 200 years he was allowed to roam free. It was only in the few years after he returned from the east that he resided in the dragon pit. Even if the targaryens were a lesser family I doubt larger dragons would be of a much larger size maybe 10 or 20 metres longer tops. I believe that the greater houses simply had belarion level dragons in much greater numbers.

[@nabilblack]

You know its fiction.

[@helixxia9320]

@@nabilblack fiction universes still have their own 'physics' and laws. and the commenter is likely thinking what would be probable within this universe's dragon sizes

[@Mcherri]

Not really I believe the magic and blood magic made the dragon lords dragons bigger then balerion because the Targaryens were only a minor house that was it the top lords most likely used magic to make the dragons bigger growing them faster and stronger but when they moved to dragonstone is when balerion really started to weaken most likely due to Westeros having any magic at all and Targaryen women losing more children and dying in childbirth more often I believe magic helped both the dragons and the valerians breed. Blood mages literally were constantly experimenting and no doubt Targaryens are true hybrids between dragon dna and their own and they did this by blood magic so when they say they are literally dragons they are not lying. Everytime a Targaryen women miscarry or don’t have a child to the full term they come out as hybrid looking creatures. No more valeyria magic and being chained and locked away didn’t help them either they got smaller and smaller until they were extinct.

[@comrade_marshal]

This statement is enough to piss off any Targaryen fanbase member

[@americanandpinay]

Yeah, but there are logistical world problems having that many large dragons. Unless the dragons are eating each other more than we know.

[@mrbiscuits001]

If you think about it, Vhagar is the last look at what a dragon of Old Valryria would look like.

[@ninjadofogo5368]

The ice dragons are also described as being much larger than any targaryen dragons.

[@DTS_I]

Larger than any Valyrian Dragons.

[@HackerArmy03]

Which would make sense, since living in cold regions (both animals and humans alike) makes them BIG compared to their southern cousins. And the dragons probably had a lot of food there (fishes, whales, maybe even krakens and mammoths) to keep them sustained.

[@ucnguyenanh9414]

@@HackerArmy03 They like some thing like Blue Whale compare to Valyrian Dragons (Orca)

[@James-kd2qm]

Except they are a myth there is absolutely no proof they existed.

[@rhaegal5650]

@@HackerArmy03what about eskimo people, things in Warner climates grow bigger surface areas to dissipate heat better not the other way around. African elephants etc.

[@baldbeardedbassist]

So I have this headcanon that all of the Targaryen dragons were specifically a brood of WAR dragons, like their body plans were engineered specially for battle against other dragons, and Balerion was like a living AC-130 of the ASOIAF universe. I don't think there are any quotes that support the idea of there being different types of dragons for different purposes, though. Then I think about the Valyrian architecture over in Essos. Their roads; wide, elevated, perfectly straight and level lines disappearing over the horizon and connecting economic centers across the continent. All the talk of their whimsically sculpted palaces and towers, everything made of the mysterious fused black stone that apparently only Valyria could make. Obviously there were some construction dragons involved here, right? Imagine an even bigger, totally docile dragon that could do the equivalent of a Bagger-288 or other extremely large-scale kind of earth moving machine. Slowly moseying along, breathing fire continuously and blasting/melting the ground for the Valyrian sorcerers behind it to change into indestructible, single-slab constructions.

[@nialljones3227]

I think the Targaryen's dragons were mixed because ceraxes,drogon and maleys look fiercer compared to syrax and vermax who looked more like dragons meant for pleasure riding and they also looked softer especially Syrax

[@les61442]

Balerion the black dread Vermithor the bronze fury Caraxes the blood wyrm Meleys the red queen Tessarion the blue queen And why a giant, enormous dragon appear in 2 story arc like Vhagar has no nick name??

[@Zenocius]

Vhagar the saggy

[@KaunPrime]

Vhagar was an old dragon, but also not very note worthy for anything really standoutish to warrant a name. She basically just outlived all the other old, big dragons like Balerion and simply became, Vhagar, the biggest dragon in the world. (even though its possible The Cannibal is bigger as theyve never been measured and rumors are they were there before the Targaryans were)

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@KaunPrime I think people overestimate Cannibal. He was big for sure, but it's consistently said the Balerion was the biggest dragon ever(since the Doom at least, and when he died Vhagar was next largest. They also said that Vermithor held that title once Vhagar died.

[@KaunPrime]

@Anatol de Nevers The issue is how the books are written. They are by the perspective of the Maesters. But no maester ever got close enough to Cannibal to actually size him up. If he was actually as the books say, killing people and dragon young alike, the Targaryians would have tried to kill him if they could to prevent it, but they never did. This is the main reason why the theory persists that hes a lot bigger than the maesters calculated.

[@KaunPrime]

@Anatol de Nevers There is also the phrasing, most of the time Balerion is referred to as the largest dragon in westeros by the maester records. But cannibal seems to have not always resided in Dragonstone

[@mr.simonphoenix7181]

Lately I’ve seen a lot speculation just get a bit out of hand. Balerion was large enough to swallow a mammoth whole, that’s practically as large as a kaiju. Functionally speaking the dragons on Valyria couldn’t have been too much bigger without being unable to ride or house. Vhagar has arguably been downsized in HoTD & she’s too big for the Dragonpit which is massive. A multitude of dragons that size just wouldn’t work logistically.

[@gusecheverri7439]

Imagine what it would take to feed those things. Theyd have to fly to another continent to hunt mammoths unless they ate smaller dragons. So the food supply would affect both the size of dragons and population.

[@donalddraggneel4564]

Exactly.. Like if Balerion was kept on the pits, how big exactly was he?

[@nialljones3227]

@@gusecheverri7439 An explanation could be that as the dragons get older they become less active to conserve energy

[@AyeshSilva-e7e]

What logic with mythical beast

[@mr.simonphoenix7181]

@@AyeshSilva-e7e logistically not logically. GRRM’s world while a fantasy setting is still burdened with real world logistics. A multitude of dragons the size of a kaiju just didn’t fit in any logistical sense. However, if you want to talk logic. When asked if ANY of his dragons could match Smaug from the Hobbit Trilogy his answer was Balerion as the only one of his HIS dragons that could match Smaug for ferocity & size. So what does logic imply about how Balerion compares to the dragons of Valyria.

[@Bigmojojo]

Just to add something, everyone keeps mentioning about magic and dragons but everyone has forgotten or doesn't know that in the books Dragons and magic are connected to each other. The more dragons there are, the more powerful magic is. This was confired in book two when Tryion went to check up on the production of wild fire he was going to use to help defend KingsLanding from Stannis. The guy in charge of the production ask Tryion if dragons had returned to the world because they used magic to help produce wild fire. After Danny's dragons hatched magic around the world had grown stronger and the production of wild fire had increase rapidly.

[@IISCAFFII]

There must have been dragons of comparable size to Balerion. He died of apparent old age, although he was severely injured when he was “stolen” and ridden to the smouldering wreckage of Old Valeryia - which could have aged him prematurely. It’s very reasonable to assume that some dragons many centuries before the Doom of Valeryia were a lot larger than Balerion.

[@amano375]

To be fair I think that Balerion and Vhagar are among the biggest dragons of ASOIAF lore even by taking in account the time where Valyria was still there and with thousands of those beasts, What makes me assume that is the case of Balerion specifically, when he was at his oldest (around 220YO) his size was not an asset anymore but a pain, he could barely fly, he spent all his time in dragon pit and when we check the history of the targaryen and their dragons, it does not seem to me like there were a lot who've managed to live that long and approach its size, and for the only one who have managed to approach that, Vhagar, she was like far slower than most of the younger dragons and was 40 years younger than Balerion by her death So I am not sure that there are that much of dragons who can really approach this age and even so I don't think that a dragon lifespan can exceed 300YO but maybe I am wrong however I can't make up my mind on the fact that even if bigger dragons than Balerion have existed, he was not among the biggest ever

[@sadrakeyhany7477]

Maybe the valerian dragon lords enhanced their dragons with magic

[@meazapawlos8996]

do u guys know silverwing might be alive in the main time line since we dont know what happen to her after the dance.

[@leonardbrazil5497]

She would be over 300 years old so can’t se that being true

[@tyrellburt1967]

​@@leonardbrazil5497 dragons went extinct 200 years before the main timeliness baleiron reached the age of 220 so it isn't impossible

[@kyneilen]

@@tyrellburt1967 Then again he was severely injured years before after coming back with that 9 foot bleeding scar

[@Donjkoontz]

@@tyrellburt1967 actually more like 140-150

[@Alpha-hp7xv]

@@leonardbrazil5497 no we dont a dragon’s life span all dragons died cause of battle but balarion and balerion likely died to a sickness and him and arerea targayyen went back to valaryia and only two make it back alive ararea was died before saying 2 words necause of the huge parasite that entered her snakes with hands and worms with faces. And cooked her skin alive so much it melted armour and balaerion had a huge wound and balaerion at the time was the strongest creature alive and known history and he had second wound about 14 ft long thats a huge wound not even a dragon could do that to him so thats likely how balaerion died because vhagar at dance of the dragon was healthy and oldee but smaller and weaker because balerion’s magic was too strong

[@njames69]

Balerion dying of “old age” is strange, maybe something happened to him when he took Aerya to Old Valyria, he did come back with massive scars and tattered wings. The running theory that he was forced to fight off Firewyrms or something even more dangerous

[@gourdenjennifer3839]

Maybe Cannibal ?

[@gokulkr07]

May he cannibel is most dangerous of all danger really aggresive

[@njames69]

@@gourdenjennifer3839 he wasn’t alive yet then

[@AmaryIIion]

He also spent like 40 years in the pit which is the exact opposite of what is needed.

[@JamieBarrington]

I'd love to see at least one firewyrm on TV. It can be a small one, I wouldn't mind. Just one would do. But I prefer the rest of Old Valyria to remain a mystery. Makes it much more creepy.

[@mansihatkar8216]

There were roughly like 3000 dragons in old valyria

[@JamieBarrington]

Princess Aerea and Balerion's fun filled vacation was absolute nightmare fuel. But as cool as it would be to get some answers, I kind of like the shroud of mystery over Ancient Valyria. The shit they were doing in those Fourteen Flames is fascinating, but I feel like part of the allure is not knowing the whole story. It makes it so much creepier. Having said that, I wouldn't complain if we got a series on it, but some things in the ASoIaF universe, I prefer to remain a mystery.

[@ericborder5272]

In the books, we have absolutely no clue about the idea of enhancing dragons with blood magic. We know that dragon can grow as long as they live. So balerion was only that big because he is the only targaryen dragon known to have died of old age. Vhagar was approaching his size, but vermithor could have become bigger than him if he had more time to grow. Caraxes was half of vaghar size, but was also haf of her age, we have absolutely no clue that dragon become smaller and smaller over generation without blood magic.

[@AshePBlack]

We do. Size was forced smaller once they put them in dragon pits. It was said many times, also I'm horrible at timeline but dragons only exist because of cross breeding and or blood magic. There were no wild dragons

[@ericborder5272]

@@AshePBlack It's said literally ZERO times in the books, it's another invention from the TV show. In the books, dragon pit is precisely design to be bigger and better suited for dragon than dragonstone

[@iangallagher5448]

@@ericborder5272 Nope even in the books the Dragonpit inhibited their growth and that came out GRRM’s mouth himself and also hinted at in the main books when Dany’s chain Rhaegal and Viserion and they didn’t get as big as Drogon unchained

[@ericborder5272]

@@iangallagher5448 sources ?

[@iangallagher5448]

@@ericborder5272 ADWD for one. And they didn’t meet the conditions for dragons because the lack of a Volcano and Dragonstone had enclosures that were smaller but the dragonmont allowed many of those dragons freedom of the enclosure

[@Tom-ez7sm]

Drogon the incarnation of the balerion the dread.🔥

[@johntamburino6801]

Think about it when balerion the black red died he was over 200 years old, now look at drogon according to RR Martin drogon is only a couple years old he's about a quarter of black dreads size now imagine what happens when he's a couple 100 years old he's going to make them look small

[@lenaharbauer5169]

But that's only how they handled it in the show, in the books according to RR Martin he's barley "flyable". If i remember correctly. Maybe comparable to Arrax? They made them bigger in the show, because obviously they look super cool. But it's probably not possible to compare them to the "new dragons".

[@HardHatEugene]

This is completely false. Drogon isn’t even big enough to carry Dany in the books. The show just fucked up his size for aesthetic purposes.

[@SaeedUrRehman1]

@@HardHatEugene yea, in the last book he can just about carry dany away from the fighting pits lol the show just doubled the size of the dragons every season cuz it looked cool

[@davidjones272]

@@HardHatEugene Drogon does carry Dany in the books. His size in the book is on par with the size on the show until season 5 at least. So basically at the age of 2 - 3 he's the same size as Arrax at 14 - 15. To have any impact on the plot Drogon and his siblings will need to keep growing at this pace, basically doubling in size every year in the book (as well as the show), otherwise they'll have no role. I'd be very surprised if there is any real difference at the point when the books catch up. Now clearly this is abnormal. None of the older dragons in Fire and Blood are reported to grow anything like that quickly. Whether they be raised in the dragon pit or outside it. Also dragons can't keep doubling in size every year, otherwise Balerion at 200 would be the size of a continent. I think it's likely that Dany's dragons are growing at an accelerated rate due to the fact that their births were unique. They were literally dead eggs that were brought back to life. It also seems likely that dragon growth rates slow significantly as they age.

[@HardHatEugene]

@@davidjones272 arrax wingspan was 90 feet, Drogons in the book is 20. Big difference.

[@cutlerwalton7313]

When you think about it, the dragons weren't getting smaller with each generation. The dragons that came later just didn't live as long before they all got wiped out in the Dance. It wasn't until after the Dance that they started getting all sickly and deformed. These are their approximate ages when they died in or before the Dance (wild dragons excluded): Balerion: ~200, died of old age or maybe something from Valyria Vhagar: ~180, killed by Caraxes Meraxes:

[@filipbatora7523]

I think it´s also a convenient Maester propaganda. "Oh, the dragons dying out made perfect sense, after all, they were already getting smaller during Targaryen stay in Westeros." And it also makes a lot of sense that they were killed off, as all Maesters needed to do was to find a way to poison the eggs during regency of Aegon III. That would leave them with only two dragons they need to take care of, Silverwing and Morning (I think it´s likely Cannibal just died of old age and Sheepstealer died to some Mountain Clan conflict). With Silverwing mourning Vermithor and being wild, I could easily see Aegon III. giving approval for people to kill her after she caused some big issue. So, all that´s left is Morning and I don´t think it´s that difficult to find a way to mess with a young dragon living in ruins of Dragonpit, without Dragonkeepers to guard and take care of him.

[@smtmtt8306]

I thought Caraxes survived though? I remember reading that he was seen crawling from the sea after Aemond, Daemon and Vhaegar went down.

[@cutlerwalton7313]

@@smtmtt8306 He crawled out onto the lakeshore but he was gutted and missing a limb, and died immediately after.

[@Schatje79]

Man I love this channel!

[@simondean5227]

If Balerion died of natural causes then wouldn't that mean he reached the maximum size possibly for a dragon since they never stop growing and he reached his full lifespan? The only way another would be bigger is if it grew more quickly

[@AmaryIIion]

His living conditions were never good almost all throughout his life, he'd have lived much longer and probably gotten a good bit larger if his conditions were good for most of his life.

[@AyeshSilva-e7e]

Something wrecked him when he went to Old Valeria.

[@helixxia9320]

i think he would have lived longer and gotten bigger possibly if he didnt get all sickly and slow after he returned after that year away. he might have caught something in valyria. since his rider did and died from it, maybe it affected him too

[@Darkstorm000]

I am also curious as to any potential theories regarding the Dragons of the Shadow Lands, which is said to be their origin point. Especially if one believes that the dragons are bigger and more powerful the deeper into the Mountains of Shadow you go, closer to Stygai. Also, curious about the gigantic Ice Dragons that have been mentioned to roam the Shivvering Sea and the White Wastes

[@kaula17]

A dragon bigger than balerion couldn’t really make it. Balerion towards his end was so damn big he really couldn’t even fly to long, and it hurt to land. Plus look at vhagar taking off, she struggling to get up too lol

[@DjeminiStudios]

So if Valyrian Dragons are much larger than Westerosi Dragons, you can only imagine how big the Dragons were from the Empire of the Dawn ;)

[@kingk3302]

My friend. It’s like you’re reading my search history

[@dmvweezy5235]

he might have lived longer but Balerion was seriously wounded as well which definitely affected his health.

[@Ashutt92]

I can’t wait until HBO does a series on old Valyria and then one on Aegon the conqueror.

[@eds1942]

Balerion was the oldest and largest of the known dragon of the books. He died at and of around 200 years of age. The only known dragon to come close in terms of size and age was Vhagar. As s general assumption, dragons grow as they age, only being stunted by confinement and normal things like breeding and nutrition. However, dragons like to roost in caves when they can. And there’s just no restraining dragons the size of Balerion or Vhagar. Balerion and Aerae weren’t attacked by another dragon. According to Barth, it was by things unspeakable. (Infested by fire worms perhaps) Both appeared to have suffered the same affliction. Only Balerion survived the ordeal. It must be said that no one was allowed to talk about it. As far as the Cannibal? We only know that it was the largest and oldest of the wild dragons. It was born sometime unknown time before 34ac. It made its lair on backside of the Dragonmont. It ate sheep, dragon eggs, the occasional sheep dogs and smaller dragons, and anyone dumb enough to approach it. It’s scales were coal black and had green eyes. And it survived the Dance and presumably left the Seven Kingdoms after Qorlys Valerian’s death. In fact being that the Cannibal only appears during the Dance of the Dragons and doesn’t do anything of significance and most of what we do know amounts to hearsay makes me wonder if the creature was even real and not just some local legend amplified by the Blacks to keep none dragonseeds away from the dragons and as propaganda as to make the Green leery of moving their smaller dragons (Vhagar aside) against Dragonstone.

[@pritampandey9519]

If they were really Making a prequel we deserved to see old Valyria and Balerion

[@jjtarski2168]

Can i get the link for 2:05 picture? Seems the most accurate drawing so far. Thanks.

[@joshpwnsnoobs]

a battle with 300 dragons, holy moly.

[@heroziolkowskimendoza9800]

I think it would be fine to assume that some of the Valyrian Families had dragons which are similar to Caraxes and Meleys. I think some of the 40 dragon families would prefer maneuverability over size.

[@eamonlyons8318]

Like at a certain point that big old bag of bones is a problem and not a strength,balerion was lethargic before he died. I'd say vhagar is optimal for warfare

[@social_failure6317]

I know it will never happen but i wish i could see past and present valyria in details and what lurks in there

[@actionjaxxson1749]

1:01 this has always bothered me. I know it's a show and it's hard to recreate scale to this level, but that skull is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY to small! Balerion was had jaws so big it could swallow a mammoth whole. That thing couldn't get past a horse, let alone a large elephant with massive tusks....

[@aswinastro]

You are forgetting that Dragons have jaws that extend like a snake. Balerion's skull was confirmed to be around 10 meters long, making the size of the jaws around 20 feet in length. If Balerion opened his mouth wide, he could easily devour a Mammoth (Assuming the Mammoth in GOT universe is the same as an Earth Mammoth which stood around max 14-16 feet in height). But again, as people here mentioned, many of these comparisons come from verbal accounts of unreliable narrators. Maybe Balerion indeed was that big, but he couldn't swallow a Mammoth whole, for that, his head would need to be 12 meters tall and 15 meters in length to have a throat big enough to achieve it.

[@breecoward2289]

The Targaryen did absolutely stunt the drag dragons growth Daenerys finally understanding that and setting her three free was important

[@dreychance9269]

It’s not possible for a dragon to be bigger than balerion, he died because he got so big that he couldn’t fly, his legs couldn’t carry him and he simply couldn’t keep living. It’s not about the possibility of one being bigger than balerion, it’s about gravity, it’s impossible.

[@mindq4328]

This is a fantasy world, if science was to be taken seriously then even Syrax would not be able to fly due to her size

[@Glorfindelfan1234]

This is true, as I believe this is theorized by the Maesters in the story. However, Valyrian magic could have had an influence to prevent this, or Valyria itself could have had an influence on dragon evolution

[@jst6114]

@@mindq4328 dude its mention by GRRM himself...

[@samwilts6016]

@@jst6114 no it's literally not

[@jst6114]

@@samwilts6016 uh yes it is you can look it up ;)

[@wafflingmean4477]

My theory is that Cannibal's egg was laid before Balerion's by a wild dragon on Dragonstone. But like Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion at the start of the series, his egg was in a state of petrification or stasis. The Targaryen's dragonkeepers uncovered the egg some hundred or so years later, who assumed it was simply a wayward egg laid by one of their own dragons, not realising this long abandoned egg was nowhere near as bound by Valyrian magic as their others. Cannibal is very likely still alive, but it makes sense he didn't grow to Balerion's size despite reaching Balerion's age, since he was hatched on Dragonstone from a purely wild bloodline. He has far less magic flowing through his veins to propel his growth. Who knows, maybe that contributes to his habit of eating other dragons.

[@captainvalourous6668]

So you were telling me that there is a possibility that the Dragons of Valyrian Freehold were just as strong as the Dragons of LOTR Universe or specifically during the War of Wrath?

[@april-ludgate-karate-dwyer9556]

No i don't think anything in asoiaf would be as strong as ancalagon

[@captainvalourous6668]

@@april-ludgate-karate-dwyer9556 I speak of the other dragons, not the greatest creation of Morgoth himself.

[@anatoldenevers237]

No way, Ancalagon was literally mountain sized.

[@ronanadub7156]

Ancalagon the black was 900 ft. He’s from lotr.

[@tblack6974]

Where is Cannibal though? They said he could give the dragons a good challenge and fight for his ferocity!!

[@midnightmadness6344]

He just isn’t that big. He’s the biggest of the known wild dragons, but still smaller than someone like Vhagar or even Vermithor.

[@DarksideGmss0513]

He does survive the dance of dragons.

[@nerdwatch1017]

I think yes there could have been bigger dragons then just Balerion or Vhagar. I would think they just used there crazy blood magic to help the dragons remain strong enough to be able to fly as heavy as they get

[@kimberlyplatt2382]

To tell you the truth the Valyrian top houses would have been setting up shop in other countries as well. Having the most powerful houses not expanding worldwide makes no sense. Especially with there being so much resources, land and magic in other parts of the word, top elite houses to me would have had castles in other places as well.

[@alphagamer9505]

They had, the targaryens had Dragonstone for example, that's why they went there, it already theirs

[@Nilufar_Nasha_Luvs_Catzz]

I think it was something to do with the 14 flames being their source of power and just the climate of the area. Dragons do have some specific conditions as well as like weird and vague magic conditions. Also, I think they just want to keep all their power to themselves and keep it a secret, which would explain why all Valyrian practices weee lost to time since only the highest members would be aware.

[@jmadsenmn]

I thought the same for Westeros. The Targaryens conquered with three dragons, why was there no dragon rider or family before Aegon that had a desire to rule there. Unless there's a reason they knew to stay away from Westeros (any further than Dragonstone) that was forgotten by the time Aegon came to power

[@jmadsenmn]

If Dragonstone had paintings and Dragonglass it was likely a safe zone during the long night, something the Valyrians likely knew

[@alphagamer9505]

@@jmadsenmn white walkers could be a reason, although they probably didn't see the need to expand further, the Romans who seemed to be George primarily inspiration for Valyria only conquered places on a practicality like for example. Gaul so as to protect italia further from germanic invasions, they didn't conquer Germania because there was nothing there

[@simbarashezuva582]

This theory could be where Winds Of Winter might be headed, making Asshai and the Stygai upon Ash River be very important for dealing with white walkers and beyond

[@angryginger791]

I really hope we get a flashback of Aegon the Conqueror and Balerion at some point on House of the Dragon.

[@rb9882]

The dragon pit was a huge anchor on the dragon’s growth.

[@Stefan_Smith]

If this is true.. how did Balerion die of "old" age? And or could not easily take off and land because of the square-cube law of his mass.

[@alphagamer9505]

That's old age for dragons is, they become too big to fly and die

[@twixbar4785]

if he didn’t get injured with aerea then i think he would have been fine to live and grow more, it’s said after he returned with those injuries he was never the same

[@KaunPrime]

Balerion was attacked when he and Aerea went to old Valyria, he was noted as never being the same afterwards and far more lazy and isolated. Soon after he ended up dying. Whatever happened in Valyria, is what I think, basically made Balerion lose the will to live.

[@Stefan_Smith]

Good points.. the common narrative needs to stop saying he died of old age.. I guess they can't talk about the mysterious trip to essos without going into further unexplored details, and without delaying the show with more expenses.. hopefully the pre prequel doesn't take too long.. matter fact based off this video I wouldnt mind watching a pre pre prequel exploring Targaryens being middle class in Valyria. They may have to turn this into an animated series 😳

[@AmaryIIion]

He was injured and had shit living conditions almost all his life, lived in the pit for more than 40 years which he should have been flying for. That's why dragons became incredibly small and deformed, people kept them in cages all their life.

[@richardsanchez5444]

I wonder how Ghidorah would do in this world.

[@AdRJ19]

I don't see any of the dragons surviving his gravity beams.

[@m78088]

Dont take show as a canon, Drogon in the books is big enogh only to take Dany in the sky, Drogon is just few years old.

[@luis15317]

But the books only reache up to season 5 🥱🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ some people I swear. Until the last book he obviously would have grown as much as we saw in season 8 if not bigger.

[@m78088]

@@luis15317 you dont know what will happen in books

[@luis15317]

@@m78088 you don't either. So why compare something that represents things from early season with the last ones? I mean last two seasons were garbage but they still nailed the dragons and their sizes which will probably equal that in the last books.

[@m78088]

@@luis15317 i dont consider GoT as a canom, books are canon and in the books Drogon is few years and 6,7 meteres long. End of story 😁

[@luis15317]

@@m78088 doesn't matter what you consider. Show exists and has the same characters and is/was way more popular. This here is about the characters that also exist in the show. And then don't tell people what they should consider canon or take for granted, everyone can decide for themselves.

[@cesarquintero_]

El Craneo de Meraxes se puede ver en el episodio en que Arya baja a las criptas a buscar gatos, ella toca el craneo de Meraxes

[@ce666isa3]

It’s crazy that a 10 year old drogon would have been bigger that a century old balerion … looking at the fact that drogon is so much bigger only in two years

[@jst6114]

Two years?

[@Hydra-og6jf]

Dumbest fan service in the show 😐

[@iangallagher5448]

No he wouldn’t at least not Book Drogon the show just had them grow like that for effects canonically he’s not even the size of Luke’s dragon Arrax

[@ce666isa3]

@@iangallagher5448 oohh wow 😮

[@peytonmacdonald6295]

I’d argue given time to achieve vhagars age, vermouth or would easily surpass her in size. He’s almost the same size as her despite being like half her age. He has huge potential

[@ChrisM-dx8up]

I doubt the dragons in Old Valyria were any bigger than Balerion or Vhagar towards the end of their lives. It's important to remember that a big part of why Balerion died at his age was he became too big for his body to maintain. Keeping that in mind, I doubt that any of the dragons from Valyria got much bigger if any bigger at all than Balerion at the end of is life. It seems the main difference between dragons and their sizes is more so how quickly they grow, not that it effects their final potential in size. Because at the end of the day, if basically all the Tagaryen dragons were let to roam free and grow to old age they'd probably get to Balerions size. I don't think he was particularly large for a dragon, he just happened to be the oldest dragon. There are some dragons like even Vermithor that (I could be wrong) sound like they're actually larger than Balerion at the same age. Vermithor in the dance of dragons being close to the same age as Balerion during the conquest and possibly a little bigger.

[@KaunPrime]

There were several dragons that surpassed Balerion, however they arent really named. Ice Dragons were noted as considerably larger than Fire Dragons by comparison. There was also something in Valyria that was big enough to burn Aerea and get her infected, and to leave Balerion with a 14ft long wound. And they had retreated from Valyria, meaning whatever they fought, won, against both of them.

[@silence1994]

Yeah I get what you mean Vermithor was around 100 years old at the time of the dance of the dragons and was nearly as big as Vhagar and vhagar is nearly as big as balerion. If Vermithor lived another 100 years and become 200 he would probably be bigger

[@mr.simonphoenix7181]

Where are you guys getting this stuff from? There is nothing that states Vermithor was larger than Balerion or at any point outpacing his growth. There is nothing that states there were any dragons known to be larger than Balerion, it was simply theorized that it was possible. However, given that Balerion was literally kaiju sized it’s ridiculous to think that was common from a logistical standpoint. Yes, Balerion was wounded in Old Valyria but by what or how large it was is unknown. It wouldn’t need to be extremely large leave a long wound.

[@KaunPrime]

@@mr.simonphoenix7181 Verminthor's age, compared to Balerion's size at that age, Verminthor is exceedingly outpacing other dragons of that age group in size, including Balerion's rate of growth. Had Verminthor lived long enough, he would have outgrew Vhagar and Balerion with ease by the time he was their peak age and size. Ice dragons are stated to be bigger than fire dragons, period when compared. Meaning ice dragons were bigger than Balerion, meaning he wasnt the biggest dragon to have ever been. We also know the factors that affect a dragon's growth, and Balerions rate of growth was fairly standard, he wasnt anything special, just fairly long lived. Balerion was wounded in old Valyria after going there, meaning whatever he fought won the territory dispute, otherwise he wouldve stayed there for longer or have returned there at some point as he did in the past. After returning to Westeros, he never went back to Valyria, and his attitude noticeably changed. He became more sedentary and isolated, which made him eventually weak enough to not be able to fly anymore. He also stopped growing due to this behavior change. The timing of all of Balerions limitations came soon after returning from Valyria, in a seemingly broken minded state.

[@accessdenied5998]

Magic is big factor for The Dragon Lords they have Blood mages with their rituals in 14 Flames and its the best place for their dragons, the fact that Targeryan were lesser house compare to other Dragon Lords probably have more dragons and way bigger

[@KingSlayer_.]

The Valyrian dragons before the doom aren't even the biggest dragons in the story. The ice dragons in the distant north past the shivering sea are even bigger to an insane degree. 2x as large or even bigger. At least if the rumors are true of course

[@wetlettuce8215]

if ever balerion met a badass when he returned to valyria, im pretty sure he did a good job of containing the monster it could have been bigger but to think balerion came with only wounds made me think he killed whoever he fought there otherwise he would have not been able to return.

[@revanius2213]

To be fair a lot of the smaller Targaryen Dragons were much younger and still growing

[@harsh2207]

Are rhaegal and viserion also dead in the books or they are still alive?

[@Aditya-fy4gl]

They're alive

[@onthepath2809]

The books stopped before those parts of the series timeline happened

[@LinkShot1945]

they are still alive in the books

[@Agradedbutfaded]

If you are someone who loves the way George writes dragons then I highly recommend learning the dragons that exist in Elden Ring. 🙌🏼

[@brutifullroast2548]

Facts about The Cannibal. He was born around the same time period as the black dread and is actually bigger then Vhagar making the biggest dragon in westeros. He also moved to westeros before the targaryens

[@juliusfishman7222]

Source: "my imagination"

[@manyaaklingsborg13]

@@juliusfishman7222 the first part is actually right lol

[@juliusfishman7222]

@@manyaaklingsborg13 then my comment applies to you too.

[@darkkiller11100]

@@manyaaklingsborg13 Those are not facts.. those are rumors and speculations.

[@brutifullroast2548]

@@juliusfishman7222 what makes you think you're right and I'm wrong when you have no evidence of this coming from "my imagination" when I could have easily researched the whole thing in my spare time to learn about all the dragons😁

[@tadhggoreyoneill13666]

I would honestly love to see the biggest dragon to ever grace the skies of High Valyria

[@Eagle09-nv5xd]

One thing I want to know is how big Aurion’s dragon was. The Valyrian who visited qarth before the doom and proclaimed himself emperor of Valyria. When that Targaryen princess flew Balerion to Valyria, he came back injured. So I wonder if maybe they encountered his dragon.

[@kellieheald]

Imagine that, The Cannibal and Drogon are both still alive.

[@carlosgardobelleza3388]

the book said balerion are the only big dragon because the old valyria is just mentioned in the book at a short period.

[@leestewart72]

Remember when the AD&D Monster Manual had ancient red dragons at 48 feet in length? Elminster remembers!

[@Saspuer26]

This was a wonderful video. Thank you very much. May you link the sources of the pictures aswell to give credit to the amazing artists who did all the fantastic artwork?

[@freemanmma]

The doom of Valyria would be better suited for a feature length film like lotr. Maybe a two parter.

[@mahasohona966]

King Ghidorah used to rule Valyria but they erased this from the history books thinking it'll scare people

[@jacobniemann4756]

I don't really think they would have gotten much bigger than Balerion if at all tbh unless the greater Valiryan families had dragons with 4 sets of wings (not like Caraxes gliders proper sub wings). Balerions last flight was a lap of Kings landing because he struggled to move his immense bulk through the air and couldn't do sustained flight anymore... also running around on all fours at a size like that isn't going to be practical when you need to consume mammoth sized things for sustenance.

[@ethanquirk28]

By the time of his last fight Balerion had already been essentially crippled by his wounds sustained in Valyria. They had to build the dragon pit to house him because he was unable to roam freely anymore. I don’t think you can attribute that to his size

[@jacobniemann4756]

@@ethanquirk28 hmm I remember Balerion getting injured but never them stating it was in Valyria or that his injury caused him much issue let alone crippled him I guess I'll need to re-read the book because that is all just theory crafted speculation from memory. If Balerion had gotten crippled in Valyria of all places there is no way he would have been able to fly home especially if this injury is what caused him to be unable to fly properly around Kingslanding later in his life when we have Sunfyre flying quickly over long distances with a messed up wing in the books... Balerion took off with the Queen for roughly a year to an unknown location and then returned with an injury and Queen Aerea full of fiery wormlike parasites with minimal to no explanation... Even the maesters where completely clueless about what happened to her... maybe Balerion was also full of worms and this killed him slowly over time but this seems unlikely as I feel like the Maesters would have figured that out and stated something about it when Balerion head was removed from its body. Also from memory I thought they modified the dragon pit because Balerion was so big he couldn't move freely down there anymore not because he was injured at all but again I haven't read the F&B book in a while, so I need to brush up on it again.

[@ethanquirk28]

@@jacobniemann4756 when Balerion returned with Aerea (its confirmed in F&B they went to Valyria), not only was Balerion covered in unhealed scars, but he had a gash along his left side that measured 9ft across and was still bleeding smoking blood as Aerea lay dying, burning from the inside out in Kings Landing. Its noted that only after this specific event, Balerion becomes the *first* dragon to be housed in the dragon pit. It wasn’t a thing before this.

[@jacobniemann4756]

@@ethanquirk28 ahh ok thanks for the clarification I didn't realise it was confirmed they went to Valyria he probably fought another dragon then. I still don't believe his injury would have stopped him from prolonged flight though because Sunfyres injury to his wing didn't stop him. I still attribute that to his sheer bulk and old age if Vhagar lived another 60yrs I'm sure she'd barely be able to fly also.

[@ethanquirk28]

@@jacobniemann4756 still, if there was literal smoke coming off his blood and the wound he received was enough for him to flee Valyria altogether, it was likely not a normal injury

[@nichhodge8503]

It seems a lot of us would like to see a show set in old Valyria with these larger dragons. Drogon was born through blood magic and if you remember while his siblings were chained up under the pyramid in Mareen, Drogon was first spotted in Valyria by Tyrian and Mormont as he took their boat through Valyria (and where they encountered the stone men who gave Mormont greyscale) to avoid the pirates in season 5 (I believe that’s right). Anyway it seemed Drogon was spending time in his ancestral home which could’ve also helped in why he was so big and powerful for such a young dragon. In the episode The Bells it was like Drogon’s fire has an explosive element to it, the ships in the Iron Fleet were basically exploding when he breathed fire on them, as well as stone buildings and the Red Keep. Also when Cerci’s army are face Daenerys’s army outside the city walls in just a stand off, Cerci’s army hears to what would sound like to them thunder so some look behind them and suddenly the city gates and stone towers beside the gates just explode like someone had set of a load of dynamite sending stone blocks and wood flying into Cerci’s army crushing them and that was caused by Drogon’s fire 🔥. Now none of the dragons we’ve seen fight example Ceraxes Daemon’s dragon when fighting the Crab King his fire didn’t have that explosive power

[@brendanmcnamara6212]

Yeah, I think the whole "exploding dragonfire" thing was more because the writers/showrunners of the later seasons of GoT completely shit the bed than actually canon.

[@nichhodge8503]

@@brendanmcnamara6212 I’ve recently sat down and watched all episodes back to back as I was bedridden for nearly 2 weeks but I’ve watched how when the slavers attacked Mareen it took the 3 of the dragons to set ships on fire and then when you get to “The Bells” episode (the penultimate episode of season 8) when Drogon comes down and breathed fire on the ships they basically explode and you see it done to stone buildings and a good example is when the 2 armies are outside the city walls facing each other and you can hear explosions before the city gates and walls are blown away by Drogon’s fire. I have to say that I really liked how powerful Drogon’s fire was in that episode it showed that he really had become a badass and we’d seen how he went from a hatchling who could barely breathe fire to cook his food, I remember him just blowing a puff of smoke to then with his fire he brings down the walls and gates of King’s Landing as well as the Red Keep

[@brendanmcnamara6212]

@@nichhodge8503 I also recall hearing some talk that drogon burning kings landing set off some of the hidden stores of wildfire that were still stashed around the city from back in the mad king's time.

[@brendanmcnamara6212]

@@nichhodge8503 but season 8 was pretty awful and inconsistent in any case, so that could just be a retcon.

[@krob5375]

I want a series on Valyria just like I want a film of The Silmarillion. However, neither will happen anytime soon, if ever.

[@htruth1785]

I think anything about old Valyria would have to be an epic movie

[@thunderninja1547]

knowing the fact that there is dragons larger than vhagar is mind-boggling

[@CFBDeepDive]

Hopefully the Aegon's conquest spinoff becomes reality and we get to see not only Balerion, but also Valyria before the doom

[@just_a_character]

Gotta love how you used Evan Winter’s Rage of Dragons artwork 🤣🤣

[@scarecrowzw]

What of the simple ligic of the change in diet. Huge dragons need sustenance and so if the larger animal they can eat is mostly horse and fish (depending on size) perhaps they also got smaller on that logic.

[@edisonjml]

There's a dragon that perished in the Red Waste of Essos, south of Vaes Tolorro. Rakharo swears to Dany that he was able to ride his horse through the dragon's great black jaws.

[@Grandslam245]

Radiation burns, 9ft gash, old ruins shrouded in mist.. Perfect opportunity to chuck some godzilla into the lore😆

[@mikerude5073]

If it is size that kills dragons, as a side effect of age, then that implies that whatever magic helps reduce the effect of gravity, allowing them to fly at their great sizes, still has some mass limit, and when they get too big they die like a beached whale, "too big for the world." If that is indeed what kills them, then Balerion would have been around the upper limit.

[@UK2K1990]

A prequel about the The Roynar and Valyrian war when Garin the Great called on Mother Royne to drown the Valyrian conquerers. That would be a juicer story than ASOIAF. No one wins, but both sides are epic and both sides have magic.

[@_Island_Boy]

Fun Fact: The red lady in Game of Thrones was a Dragon's Keeper and she understood magic