Mindscape 133 | Ziya Tong on Realities We Don't See

Patreon: / seanmcarroll
It’s a truism that what we see about the world is a small fraction of all that exists. At the simplest level of physics and biology, our senses are drastically limited; we only see a narrow spectrum of electromagnetic waves, and we only hear a narrow band of sound. We don’t feel neutrinos or dark matter at all, even as they pass through our bodies, and we can’t perceive microscopic objects. While science can help us overcome some of these limitations, they do shape how we think about the world. Ziya Tong takes this idea and expands it to include the parts of our social and moral worlds that are effectively invisible to us - from where our food comes from to how we decide how wealth is allocated in society.
Ziya Tong received a B.A. in psychology and sociology from the University of British Columbia, and an M.A. in communications from McGill University. She has served as host, writer, director, producer, and reporter from a number of science programs, most notably Daily Planet on Discovery Canada. She is a Trustee of the World Wildlife Fund, and served on the Board of WWF Canada. Her book The Reality Bubble: How Science Reveals the Hidden Truths that Shape Our World was published in 2019.
Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
Mindscape Podcast playlist: • Mindscape Podcast
#podcast #ideas #science #philosophy #culture

[@czypauly07]

This channel is going to explode. Please keep going Sean, it's one of the best on youtube.

[@username-iz6el]

Not without giving us video no one on KZbin is here to listen to audio podcasts. He needs to knock the pateron or whatever that shit is and realise people like me pay pay KZbin I'm not going to pay for Spotify or pateron to see a video it can explode did rogan hide his videos behind a pay wall?

[@robertglass5678]

This is perfect. I'll be using this one in my Environmental Science class.

[@jennydeepable]

Fantastic chat, new big fan of Ziya

[@Cyrix642]

Great conversation. Definitely going to read her book.

[@raamer]

My highest compliment.... I just bought the book... nice job Sean

[@ssshurley]

Amazing as usual

[@user-sb3wh3dd4v]

FANTASTIC interview! GREAT GUEST! I just bought the book half-way through this episode! Love this important work. Love her candid yet cheerful approach to frankly disturbing facts. GREAT choice Sean!

[@mamnoonji]

great learning process...re ealed horrors most of us would never see /realise otherwise.....thanks for candid talk with very thoughtful humanitarian...

[@andrear.berndt9504]

Thank You for the new episode! Great Talk!

[@EricSpaete]

Ziya is great. Systems thinking like this is really important I think. With our capacity to design we could do so much more in this space that really affects change.

[@lukefidalgo8154]

Thank you for these! Very interesting!

[@milsantosvideos]

great guest!

[@quinntalley1681]

Really enjoyed it. Thanks.

[@DarkseedAlpha]

Thank you! Very insightful

[@Techadopter]

Sounds a great book and right up my street, I’ll add it to the list

[@savaloy666999]

Thanks, Sean! Thanks, also, for the wonderful AIP Interview, it was fascinating to hear you talk about your early life, and the varied paths you have walked. Having said that, I think I would enjoy listening to you read the Phonebook! You are an exquisite orator, and put all other so-called "Science Communicators" to shame! (Mentioning no names...!). You are the true successor to the great Sagan, Sir. With love, from The UK.

[@tommygrandefors9691]

Very interesting. Kudos for good sound quality. Thanks. 👍

[@mjkluck]

Very, very good.

[@ChancellorMarko]

I believe that these conversations are happening nowhere else in the universe right now.

[@frederickphilipp6391]

DON'T switch to Zoom. Takes more data

[@neptunethemystic]

✨A m a z i n g✨ Just gonna go wash some spiders out of my eye lashes 🕷 👀

[@dougcope5437]

I’m just trying to figure out which reality my wife sees in her head!

[@austinharper1]

Vruh

[@robertglass5678]

An important part of the scientific process is asking the questions that have a reasonable chance of being answered.

[@szilviabeylik4783]

Ah. Love him. But I should really try listening not right before bed time. I’m very interested but his voice is so lulling, I always end up starting to fall asleep, then he says “let’s go!” and the intro music jolts me, but then I’ll fall asleep again anyways. Take 3….

[@user-gq4qm2uv3h]

Sean Carroll I have three questions about the theory of the unification of forces of the physicist Dragan The first question is about the theory of the nine-dimensional space membranes and Dragan theory Will this theory help the development of M- theory to describe the high energy from the time of the Big Bang? The second question: How will Dragan theory explain that spark that ignited the Big Bang 14 billion years ago? The third question What are the predictions of Dragan theory for testing the theory? Please answer these three questions and also please post the answers On Wikipedia ‏Send the three questions to the physicists ‏This is the link to Dragan's theory ‏iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/ab76f7

[@kibrika]

She mentioned babies being born quite bacteria free, and that goes against what I learned in the book "10% human" (though not directly, but by the impression it gives); and Sally Le Page did a video on the vat grown meat in Singapore that indicated that the making of that chicken, at least at the start, was not as cruelty free... And now I'm wondering how much nuance I'm missing from things I hear all the time, just because I'm not omniscient and can't know all the truths... Also I'm lazy and am probably no good for future generations of humans. I don't want to give up listening to YT podcasts at night just so nature gets a break or smth.

[@Tom-sx4tw]

I would love to bring up veganism in this conversation, but I fear badly about the negative reactions that come with the notion that we don't need to harm animals for food to live and be healthy. Considering the interests of other species is just another step of moral progress. Why shouldn't we investigate this idea further?

[@rotarolla1]

Hi, can there be a Buddhist monk interview on their concept of reality?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

1:17:00 if you're not doing something wrong then you're doing something wrong....

[@garyraab9132]

Having an agricultural background, and having been in chicken hatcheries and hog barns and feedlots, reading Animal Factory and rereading Animal Farm and 1984 and Brave New World, it is perfectly obvious that humans are in nahnahland regarding uncontrolled procreation. Boy Girl Toys for indiscriminate use! Oblivious to exponential world population growth. Talk about cultural blindness! As a long time supporter of Wildlife Federations and Greenpeace, i’m starting to question their effectiveness. Eco-green-board members, like politicians, like a plethora of charitable organizations, dare not say that the reproductive habits of human primates is bordering on being deranged. The emotional backlash would undoubtedly result in decreased donations to the cause. The cause being employment or saving the biosphere? How many top of the food chain predators are there? Grizzly bears, polar bears, lions, tigers? Compared to 7.8 billion humans and an estimated 1.6 billion domestic dogs and cats! Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst by Robert Sapolsky

[@tomatocan2502]

aww, I miss the good ol days watching Discovery Channel

[@Rattus-Norvegicus]

History Channel as well.

[@chasereeves7421]

My goodness, that is a beautiful human! It would be hard to pay attention to her teachings in that class.

[@TranscendentPhoenix]

C'mon bruh

[@subhadeepreaditassubhodeep6161]

Is she someone to David Tong?

[@lovefeelsbest]

I love this but too many advertisements now. Wish I could replace you but nobody matches this content.

[@jedidiahhenry6020]

Her voice reminds me of Janna Levin, anybody else hearing it?

[@dru4670]

Add a video component

[@josephturner6440]

I love you 😗

[@martinsoos]

I am a proud supporter of the 1/4 mile vegan marathon. Even still, I'm having the hamburger, I raise cows, goats and sheep, sold $5,000 worth at auction last year for food and they were all grass fed, fat, and happy.

[@SamuelOrjiM]

Ziya Tong. You are looking for the causal continuity between the human umwelt and paracosm. I might be of help.

[@desgreene2243]

Afraid this podcast a bit too much on the popular book promotion side…

[@HigashiBashi]

first

[@alvarorodriguez1592]

sqrt (-1)

[@TheOriginalRaster]

All of Sean Carroll's videos that I've watched have been great so far, I've watched his videos since the formation of this channel, but in this one I was shocked by comments from Ziya Tong, near the end when she started spewing the most outrageous propaganda concerning China. I had to just shut off the video because her spew was just so outrageous (in my opinion). I am back now to comment because I found a KZbin video from a trusted source that does a good job of expressing my concerns (videos from two now famous KZbin bloggers who have been living in China for 15 years, exploring the country and putting out videos about actual life in China). In order to understand please consider viewing the videos of these channels: KZbin channel "ADVChina" (covering their adventures in China), KZbin channel "laowhy86" (from Matt, one of the pair of contributors to ADVChina, and KZbin channel "serpentza" (from Winston, the other contributor of the pair). In order to understand this point I'm trying to make, for example, watch the latest episode from "laowhy86" titled: "The Death of Reality in China." If you go back and look at earlier episodes (the three channels I mentioned above) you will be able to see the full history of these two adventure travelers who used to ride small motorcycles all over China, showing the countryside and reporting on their life there. Both of these KZbin authors lived there for over 10 years, working there and learning the language, they both can speak Mandarin fluently and they can read Chinese characters (they are fluent in reading the written language). If you watch the series of episodes you would get a comprehensive view of life in China and you would learn the inside view and learn all of the key issues of China and life in China. As intellectuals I think we should be motivated to learn more about the true state of things in China, not just relying on clichés repeated here in an otherwise worthwhile episode. I would challenge Ziya Tong to learn more about these current issues rather than just spew bits of CCP propaganda that has made it to her over the years. Also, please write back to me on any of these topics and we can discuss further. If you want, we can debate the topics, diving further in depth into some of the important issues. Cheers!

[@TheOriginalRaster]

If you don't mind I would like to cite the KZbin video that I mention. I'm not sure if giving a link to a video is allowed here in comments... here goes... I'll give it a try: "kzbin.info/www/bejne/haCWoKmneNGoqpo"

[@punkyroxx]

I know a stripper named bubbles

[@ycart_tech6726]

Wake me up, when you catch up...

[@kagannasuhbeyoglu]

What is the truth? I don't think anyone knows...

[@tjthreadgood818]

I’m sure you are right. I think we must continue to seek the truth. We are not smart enough to know all the truth, but I think we can know some truth and if we are humble then what we do know won’t get us into trouble.

[@kagannasuhbeyoglu]

@@tjthreadgood818 What you say is worth thinking about 👏 Thank you👍

[@ArtDocHound]

Reality bites.

[@writerblocks9553]

This is amazing, I’m a Christian and this sounds exactly like finding Gods will for us

[@thewiseturtle]

As a scientist, it makes me very uncomfortable that she talks about "proof" in science, as that's quite the opposite of what science is all about. Healthy science is fully aware that every model we make and every story we tell about reality is highly incomplete and beautifully fictional. We scientists generate novel maps for the world to use to explore reality, while knowing that the maps are not the territory. Our theories are simply options, not truths, and most definitely not "facts". The cool thing is, as her book aims to understand, that the more fictional stories we tell about our own deep exploration of some particular part of reality, especially those things that are normally invisible, and the more we share all of those stories, the more humanity as a whole can experience reality in an objective, multidimensional, philosophical way. Never fully complete or accurate, but always adding more information to our grand story of what it's like to exist.

[@platonicdescartes]

I would love if they could fix the factory meat market to be more ethical and sustainable, and to promote biodiversity. However, if your solution is veganism, then no, I no longer support you. I am perfectly comfortable being an omnivore. I've killed many animals in my life for food, both as a hunter and as a rancher. And I'm quite in tune with the lifecycle and my place in it.

[@Tom-sx4tw]

What do you mean by your place in it?

[@madhavestark3173]

Its so hard to listen to non scientists.

[@ycart_tech6726]

Ehhh... This isn't really going anywhere, is it?

[@gregoryrollins59]

You talk about the chruch and traditionally science deniers? Galileo. Even Newton saw the church as his enemy. One reason he became a whigger. Was it the science or their beliefs? Just for a change up on the whole story, how about talk about what the church believes? Is the Nicene creed in the bible? Did Jesus die on a cross? Challenge that? Newton did not believe in the Nicene creed, why? I look at science not to prove God exist. That's a striving after the wind. I believe in the processes of creation. Science is trying to figure those processes out. We can learn them in fact we are supposed to know them. Genesis 1:26 says and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying of the heavens and domestic animals and all the earth and every creepy animal that is moving on the earth. Before you read the rest of the bible, chapter one tells you to be a scientist of some sort. Bio, zoo, ocean...ology. from the dirt to the ozone. God created us in his image? God's a scientist. That's a whole lotta science at 1:26. Instead we shit on it with greed and war for that greed. Its because the church teaches most to think like a reptile. Animals litter, it takes loyal love to take care of something. To make it beautiful in its time. Ecclesiastes 3:9-12. Peace and agap'e.

[@epwlod777]

Critical theory? ....Everything is a social construct? ... private property....I create something, I put my labor into building it, it is my property, not the groups whom didn't contribute labor towards it. But yes, made up laws... Liberalism is it's true enlightenment sense is about individual rights and responsibilities, it's a contract between the individual and society about the individuals natural right.. But yes, post modernist critical theory is the 'cultural revolution'.... How'd that work out for the Chinese in the 40s and 50s ziya? But let's ignore the reality of history because it contradicts your agenda

[@robertglass5678]

You're right, in fact I looked in my microscope the other day and saw a property deed in its natural habitat. It was beautiful.

[@epwlod777]

@@robertglass5678 truly a brilliant conflation on concepts. Or rather en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence I guess not much more could be expected.

[@robertglass5678]

@@epwlod777 So, no sense of humor either? Sounds about right. I guess I am in need of enlightenment. Is property an idea we made up? Or isn't it?

[@epwlod777]

@@robertglass5678 property includes possession over one's own person and bod which all else's stems from that inherent concept. My body is my property, my body produces labor, henceforth what my labor produces is my property to do with as I choose, whether thats to sell\trade or not, simply put-my body, MY CHOICE, my labor, my property. OR does one not possess their own person? Mind? I'd not, whom does?

[@robertglass5678]

@@epwlod777 Yeah, I asked if we made it up, not if it was a useful idea. Here, I'll model a dialogue by answering your questions: 1) I don't think you possess your body and mind, after all, what exactly is the thing doing that possessing. I would rather say that you are your body and mind. 2) Considering that we have made up possession laws, ownership of you is contingent upon a society that is willing to back up said ownership with force if necessary. We, as a society, have come to more or less a consensus that people get own themselves and try to show up to protect people who have their sovereignty of themselves threatened; and good on that decision. Decision, as in we decided, being the important part. OK. Did we make up laws? Or are they metaphysical realities that we just discovered?

[@robertredbeard1855]

Lost my view the moment you mentioned politics and social activism.

[@PhilFogle]

Ironic?

[@user-gq4qm2uv3h]

Sean Carroll I have three questions about the theory of the unification of forces of the physicist Dragan The first question is about the theory of the nine-dimensional space membranes and Dragan theory Will this theory help the development of M- theory to describe the high energy from the time of the Big Bang? The second question: How will Dragan theory explain that spark that ignited the Big Bang 14 billion years ago? The third question What are the predictions of Dragan theory for testing the theory? Please answer these three questions and also please post the answers On Wikipedia ‏Send the three questions to the physicists ‏This is the link to Dragan's theory ‏iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/ab76f7