Job: No More Excuses For This Story! | Secular Bible Study (Episode 18)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Happy SBS Day! Finally, we get to Job! Looking forward to sharing this one with you.

[@eyeswideopenapril]

So looking forward to seeing this….. my husband and I can’t wait to watch it together this evening 🎉😅❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for that! Love your kind support!

[@michaelsbeverly]

Your description isn't edited, it says it's about Nehemiah. Minor, of course, but you know....

[@raya.p.l5919]

Jesus power ❤ warning intense 😮 last 3 days 😅 enjoy

[@peterkeller7880]

only with Mindshift Bible Study shall we study A-Z of the Bible. All the good and bad. Keep up the great work

[@Witchoftheriver]

Job was one that got used against me as an abuse victim, to justify why I was suffering and why no one in the church owed me any help as an abused child. At 11 I was supposed to "look inside myself for any lingering sin that was causing me to not accept the lesson I needed to learn" at multiple different churches 🤮 Victim blaming is written into church doctrine, it's in the very core of the Bible no matter what you chose to emphasize out of it. Job is explicit about it in a way no other story is.

[@blumoon131]

The story of Job has allowed for so much cruelty to happen inside churches. Every aspect of it is horrific. I am so sorry you were explicitly made a victim of it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You are spot on! I am so sorry to hear about this and yes. This book is huge on the victim blaming

[@lunarlight3131]

sounds like you need to find a new church

[@Witchoftheriver]

@@lunarlight3131 I mentioned multiple, this was in childhood and I'm 35. Lots and lots of churches, there are no "good ones" for abuse victims.

[@kerishannon775]

Hi Brandon! The Book of Job was the book that put the final nail in the coffin of Christianity for me. Even if this deity were real, I compare it to a child growing up. When you are small, you look up to your parents as wise and protecting of you. As you grow, you gain knowledge until one day you stand on equal footing as an adult, with your parents and you absolutely have the right to question them and pass judgement on their actions. You do not owe your parents unconditional love. You must judge them and decide whether or not to follow their example. I had an alcoholic for a father and a Christian fundamentalist for a mother. They used to tell me that I should be grateful for having a roof over my head and shoes on my feet. (I always thought that was the bare minimum that any parent should do)

[@Fullyautomagic]

It reminds me of the meme where Jesus is taking away a crying girl’s teddy bear while holding a bigger one behind his back as if the emotional connection doesn’t matter because bigger is better. Job’s old family doesn’t matter because now there’s more of them.

[@andymetternich3428]

I think it is what the Jews call Bubbe maises. Old wives tales.

[@seancolley3443]

Yes, thank you for this. I've finally realized how being a Christian is literally being part of an abusive relationship. I looked at the story of Job with fondness before, but now I look in horror as I see the abuse. Job has everything stripped from him, has no idea why, and begs and cries in sadness and agony wanting an answer. And when God shows up, he doesn't come in sympathy and gentleness. No, Job hurt his ego so he scares the hell out of Job and tells him to shut up because he doesn't know anything like God does. How abusive and unsympathetic. And people talk about how God blessed Job with even more than before. But he didn't get his children back. I feel sorry for Job, and for anyone who is being held in this abusive relationship with God.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Spot on. Tragic indeed!

[@danman3542]

This is exactly how I view Job now

[@ChillAssTurtle]

Its ok god will give him a new family cus only men are real humans, everyone else is just property

[@oswaldcobblepot502]

Exactly. Out of all the possibilities, we get a creator who is more sadistic than Satan himself (I guess he learned from God.) I would rather have never been born than to come to know God.

[@jeffrutan2344]

Job in modern fiction: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5XCmGygqrGcpcU

[@zerocooler7]

To God, people are replaceable. To people, family and friends are NOT replaceable.

[@thesurvivorssanctuary6561]

Depends on the people.

[@Zimbabwae1]

​@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561you sicko

[@Mewdo45]

It's a big issue with the book of job. A morally righteous being would know what effects this would have to tear relationships like this

[@A-WallfromAL]

Leaving Christianity felt very much like a bad breakup: excruciating at first but ultimately exhilarating to be free of an abusive partner.

[@Here_For_Now]

Yes!

[@kenshiloh]

When was God ever abusive to you? I defy you to come up with one abusive element of the Bible! For example, this video is about Job. God allowed satan to attack job and his family. Do you think God owed anything, including protection, to Job? Did He owe Job a family, money, health, or a nice condo? Does God owe you or me protection from satan? Most importantly, I hope that you get to know Christ. In all love and respect, you missed that the Christian faith is a relationship with God. Yet, you never met Him. It must have been terrible to confess Christ, to live in the fear of hell, but never have any assurance. I can understand how your disbelief is a huge relief! Yet, before we know it, we will all be in eternity. You will be dead for a long time. Jesus said that it is either heaven or hell. Do you think that eternal hell is just and fair? For example, if you have lied or stolen, does God 'owe' you heaven? Of course not! Unless you are born again, you will be cast outside with other lying thieves. God is love so eternity without love is suffering and torment. You have rejected God, so heaven would be out. Yet, without God, live is hell by definition. Jesus died on a Cross so that we may know Him. I hope that you will have an encounter with Christ, someone who knows the love, kindness, and goodness of God. Jesus said, "Ask and you shall receive." I hope to see you in heaven! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@A-WallfromAL]

@@kenshiloh If you don’t understand how Job (and the story of Abraham & Issac, and others) depict an abusive god, I can’t help you. If you want to worship a god who wouldn’t think twice about murdering your family to win a bet with a “fallen” angel, I can’t help you. If you’re cool with a god who killed an innocent baby to punish King David’s sin, then … well … you have a warped concept of love. There’s nothing you wouldn’t bend over for if god commands, so of COURSE you can’t find an abusive god in the Bible. 🙄 I’m with other gods now. You also have no idea what my story is and no grounds to claim I wasn’t a true believer. That “you didn’t know Jesus” comeback is so tiresome. And stop pretending to love or respect me. I don’t buy it.

[@SauerkrautX]

@@kenshilohlmao the same god who lets people get murdered and raped. “God is all loving and loves everyone so much.” Based on the trend we’ve seen since the dawn of time, I’m gonna go ahead and say that’s a big fat lie

[@kenshiloh]

@@A-WallfromAL What, specifically, was the wrong that you claim that God did? What do you mean you 'can't help me' if I do not understand? Are you not able to clearly express yourself? God allowed satan to attack Job. Did God owe Job protection? Let's talk about Abraham and Isaac. First, do you know the name of the mountain that God asked Abe to sacrifice his son? Mt. Moriah, which is the mount that Christ died on. You see, Abraham did not need to slay his only son; Christ has died on a Cross. Yet, why would God allow his children (e.g. Job) to suffer, most of all His only Son? Have you ever told a lie or stolen anything? God would love to have your friendship, but how? There are no lying thieves in heaven! Moreover, God must judge all wickedness. Don't you agree that God should judge every lying thief? Not that it is a contest, but I would wager that my upbringing was more difficult than yours. For example, did you have a father who told you how he delights in thoughts of torturing and killing you? Did you have a parent that, you could plainly see, wanted to kill you (but was afraid of the police or who knows what)? I think that would give me a right to be a bitter, angry person. Yet, I sincerely love my father. He is gone now, but I genuinely hope he made it to heaven. My point is that, through Christ, I am so thankful for my abusive father, as he has brought me so close to God. God uses every difficult thing in my life, then turns it into a tremendous blessing! God is so good! Ever been through an ordeal with someone? It brings you close. I have had to rely on God in a way most people can only imagine. Yet, instead of coming out bitter and angry (which really rots the bones and destroys marriages!), I have joy (and a 30 year happy marriage). Every day is like a picnic at the beach. I literally could not be more content with a billion dollars. I hope that you will have a talk with God about this. Let Him have it! It is fine to argue with God; just realize that He is right and you are wrong! The Cross is real. I hope that it becomes a reality in your life! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@juliaullrich2630]

In July of 2021, I gave birth to my stillborn daughter at 40 weeks gestation with no known cause. In the thick of immense grief, more than one family member suggested this book to me. As a person who grew up Christian, it wasn’t like I didn’t know of this story, but I certainly had never given it the proper attention. After much resistance, I read it and I couldn’t believe what those words were saying. I was terrified of my own interpretation and thought I was consumed by anger for Emma’s death, so I sought video after video of others interpreting this book just to realize how sick it is and that I had been right all along. I don’t have to praise this god so he’ll “reward” me with another baby after killing my first one. Babies don’t replace babies. Emma is irreplaceable. This book is how I started my deconstruction process and eventual journey to Atheism. To this day, people want to discredit my disbelief by blaming it on my anger for losing my only daughter, but when you believe in a god who is this petty and revengeful, I don’t think I need to prove anything. Also, for any loss parents out there, I’m sorry for your loss and you didn’t cause or deserve it 💜 Thank you so much for your informative and validating content, Brandon! My husband and I watch your videos all the time. Keep it up 👏🏼

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I am so sorry for your loss and the insanity added on top by christian ideas. Thank you for your example and kind words.

[@kenshiloh]

First of all, my wife and I likewise lost a child. All comfort. I am so sorry for your loss! Yet, in your grief, I hope that you will not be offended by the book of Job. Most importantly, I hope that you go from merely 'believing' in God to a genuine relationship with God - remembering the Father, that He watched His only Son be whipped, mocked, and crucified. If you will, I ask you to think carefully about the book of Job as to what wrong you think that God did. True, God allowed satan to wreak havoc on Job, yet how was God at fault in any of that? Do you think God owed Job anything: protection, wealth, or a family? In fact, the book of Job is a stern warning to all of us. It is only God who has protected us, but, of course, difficult things happen. Why did God allow me to be struck by a car, ending my ability to play regular sports? Why are some people drawn closer to God in their grief, while others in bitterness turn away? Which one is right, good, and healthy: bitterness or drawing close? Yet, in love and respect, I offer a stern warning: if you reject Christ in this life, you will not have His protection at all in eternity. God is love. How could eternity without God be anything less that sheer torment, than a 'lake of fire'? Look at how low human corruption can go. Do you know about the people of Noah's day, how their thoughts were only 'violent continually'? Do you really want to risk spending all eternity with such people? I hope that you will keep yourself open to Christ. For example, you could pray something like, "Jesus, if you are real, I accept your gift of eternal life." The Cross is true. It is our only hope. God allows difficult things to happen, yet God is good. I hope you get to know the goodness of God. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@SauerkrautX]

@@kenshilohjust because you watched someone pull the trigger and didn’t do anything to stop it, doesn’t make you less guilty. The fact that he even allows all this to happen is one big cruel joke. Yet you’re still loyal because you’re afraid and that’s how abusers keep their victims in line, by threatening them with more pain and misery. You have Stockholm syndrome and you don’t even realize it.

[@kenshiloh]

@@SauerkrautX Thanks for writing. In all love and respect, you just said something extremely dangerous! Think about what you are saying! Should God stop satan from harassing people? Should he stop killers from killing? What about stop liars from lying? If God did what you are suggesting He do, you would be toast right now! As far as me being afraid of God, you are simply making a bad guess. In fact, I feel more at home with God than with any human! It is such a close friendship. It is a fellowship beyond your experience, even your imagination. Moreover, I can honestly say that I have never feared going to hell, ever! The closest thing to a fear like that was, I think, about ten years ago. I knew I was going to heaven, but being the total wretch that I am, I was concerned that God would be disappointed in me. For some reason, it took about a month before I had total peace. I know God. I am loved and accepted. I have exactly zero worries about my eternal welfare. Zero. Hence, your 'abusive syndrome' assessment is lacking accuracy. What about you? Do you think abuse is 'wrong'? Yet, explain right and wrong without God! You are just a chemical fizzing! No free will, just chemical reaction! How can you complain about anything? You have no moral basis! Know that heaven and hell are for real. I hope that you do not miss Christ! The Cross is your only hope. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

[@SauerkrautX]

@@kenshiloh I guess the placebo effect works differently for others. My mistake. Funny for you to assume that I’m a materialist though.

[@brianandrews9428]

Great work Brandon. I'm glad you mention Chapter 2 where God says to Satan "You incited me against him [Job] for NO REASON" Exactly, no GOOD reason. Why did God AGREE with Satan to "TEST" Job, as if God CANNOT FORESEE how Job would respond to evil or suffering.

[@Daisy0962]

Sounds like a sinners' tale.

[@gchm3503]

This was the actual first book that made me start questioning god's integrity when I was a kid "So god makes bets on people with lucifer? Wasn't lucifer supposed to be the enemy? Why would god talk to him in a chill manner?" Then the fact that god "rewards" Job with double and more children, as if more children can replace the former ones, highlighting how expendable we are on god's eyes... Finally, god's rant... The narcissism and gaslighting, as if it were a toxic relationship where your partner will put the blame on you out of their own wrongdoings... Disgusting Your channel is a beacon of light, Brandon. Thank you for existing! One of my fav atheist KZbinrs, of the likes of darkmatter and Aron Ra. Cheers!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Such high praise to be listed in that group. Thank you very much!

[@tezzymai5076]

Your first paragraph. Thats me. I agree with the rest but if Im honest I never even got past the first part enough to consider the rest of the story. THIS is the god im supposed to worship? No thx.

[@maddiehupp5693]

Yes!!!

[@andrewferg8737]

"god makes bets" --- ????????

[@arkdark5554]

Hey! Don’t forget MATT DILLAHUNTY. He is truly incrediblo 😮😅

[@Sarappreciates]

Job may have been the first Bible story that really made me question God as a kid. Even when I was little, the idea of replacing someone's family horrified me. We are all so worthless in this religion that any of us can be easily replaced just like that, and our creator has no clue what kind trauma a loss like that can cause. It was a scary thought as a kid, and a cruel thought as an adult.

[@DannyS177]

Job was god's punching bag, and when Job asked why, God said, "Because I can! You still need to worship me because if you don't, I'll torture you for all of eternity!" And then we assume that Job said "I will continue to worship you."

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup. Utterly horrifying

[@Daisy0962]

Thankfully my biological father was abusive like that towards me.

[@Awwfulclasher]

Job: God, why am I suffering? God: shut up fool

[@2pacaveli257]

😂😂😂

[@sekovittol3124]

I found the book of Job, a job to read.

[@beans9499]

😂😂😂

[@maddiehupp5693]

Job was used against me when the church separated me from my current girlfriend now. They saw my sexuality as a test that God had bestowed on me, and that I needed to just take it but not act upon it. Two months later, my girlfriend, and I reunited, despite the church separating us, we realized we were grown adults with autonomy and didn’t need a church to dictate our lives. We decided to dig into ourselves and our theology apart from the church and ended up deconstructing shortly after. The same person who read me Job ended up, cursing me and telling me I was going to hell and didn’t want to even look at me. All in all, the story is an analogy that those with great power can do whatever they want to you and you should be grateful because you “deserve worse.” It’s a revered story in Christian circles, but in reality, it’s terrible. A good God shouldn’t have to pick on his people and torture them in order to make sure that they love him enough. It’s so backwards and abusive.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So frustrating. This religion is insane

[@maddiehupp5693]

⁠@@MindShift-Brandon omg I love your work by the way! I sent by brother in law your “god’s hypocrisy” video about moral objectivity cause he said I “couldn’t have morals without god” and I asked him if he believes if we’re morally bound by gods subjective arbitrary whims or if morality is apart from god and he’s not been able to answer me for weeks and I just love that cause he’s such a debater 🙈❤️ I love you! You’re changing lives and bad ideas!!!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Too kind! Glad to be of any use at all. Thanks again for being here!

[@sootuckchoong7077]

Why should God throw Lucifer into the world, have you ever asked this question? God could have thrown Lucifer into other place in the universe, and then, would Adam and Eve have sinned? Would we be suffering? Have you ever asked this question?

[@LatrineDerriere]

I went to church last week. The pastor was talking to the adults about how bad things will happen if you stray from God. In childcare they were teaching my 5 year old about Job. My wife put it together without me having to say anything. "Eitherway you're screwed!"

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! This is great!

[@20july1944]

Except you're not screwed ultimately IF God exists and you honor/obey Him.

[@kyle9777]

Yet we were told this God would never leave nor forsake them

[@lochermaleficent5062]

You're not human.

[@SupremeScientist]

@@20july1944 Tell that to Job's ORIGINAL family members. They weren't reincarnated. God just replaced them. The first ones really WERE screwed.

[@xtina2189]

The 'Spirit of awareness' is moving me to relay this message: The Bible is nothing more than a manual to show slaves how to reverence their tyranical overlords no matter the situation, & for other aspirering puny-minded tyrants to learn how to maintain their stranglehold on their supplies.

[@vincentclark5739]

My dad, who was a Christian his whole life and a preacher died before my 2nd birthday. When I read and heard Job, I immediately had issue with how people glossed over the real lives of Job’s family and saying god gave him even more. I never had hope god killed my dad so I could get a better dad one day. I realized and despised how Christians are ready to make someone who died a side character to make god look better. Ugh, I’ve been waiting for this video, and I’m still at the beginning, but I hope you cover this

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I think i cover it pretty well at the end. The idea of compensation for dead family members does not work! Thanks for sharing

[@20july1944]

So you hate God, or think He doesn't exist?

[@vincentclark5739]

@@20july1944 I have no evidence to believe, but growing up in the church this was one of the Bible stories that I could never square. I just tried to ignore it since I didn’t buy any of the apologist explanations. Like god being vengeful towards his enemies made sense, but god allows the devil to do great harm to one of his faithful and kills off his family. Giving him a replacement, or extra didn’t make the situation better at all for me. And I knew if it was me, that “reward” for being faithful wouldn’t make me happy. Everyone in his family is just a plot device and could be replaced like any material object. It’s disgusting

[@vincentclark5739]

@@MindShift-Brandon I agree and look forward to the next installment in this series! Thank you for taking the time to cover these topics

[@kyle9777]

@@vincentclark5739 when you look at something like that it makes him look like some kind of accomplice

[@SuzanneKvR]

Job is one of the books I avoided as a christian at all cost because no appologetic I heard could explain the horrors Gods does in this book. Having been sick most of my teenage years it often crossed my mind if I too was being tested like Job. It scared the hell out of me. Now that I am no longer a christian I no longer live with this fear. Thank you for a great explanation of all things wrong with Job. It gives words to my many thoughts😊

[@julietfischer5056]

And it was all to win a bet with one of his angels.

[@betadecay6503]

​@@julietfischer5056There's a reason he stated in the video that calling it a "bet" is lazy. Apologists have a million ways of dismissing this so it's a take that just makes Christians dismiss anything you say. It's not helpful. One apologetic I've heard is that it is not only a lesson for Job but also (mainly) for Satan. God is teaching Satan that he doesn't actually have any real power, only God does. It's part of God's disgusting long game to win the "war".

[@julietfischer5056]

@@betadecay6503- None of these rationalizations makes God look good.

[@betadecay6503]

@@julietfischer5056 agreed. It's like trying to make Hitler look good by saying he was a decent artist. They're both still genocidal monsters, but at least God is fictional.

[@ziploc2000]

I think the Job story reflects how today's Christians often appear to have main character syndrome. Their lives are important, everyone else is an NPC, easily replaced.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

This is a great comparison

[@velkyn1]

interesting observation and quite true it seems.

[@mikesimon4311]

I have often thought of being one of the 70k people God felt he needed to kill because David sinned by counting the people. What kind of God would take it out on me? I had nothing to do with it.

[@choobooloo1]

That is so true but not only Christians.

[@ianbuick8946]

Play more videogames, great _wisdoms_ come from there. 👍👍

[@RJ-lk6qn]

In Sunday school I remember asking why God was even having a conversation with Satan. Doubts began as a kid

[@Tinhortnon]

The book is the first mention of „Satan“ in the bible. Just like the role of God in the bible, the role of satan changes along the story. The character in Job is not a fallen angel and not a leader of demons, that part of his mythology developed later. Why wouldn’t God have a conversation with him? Satan does have a valid point in the story.

[@the.thinking.failure]

If this God can murder the children of the most righteous man, then this is a God who can and will do whatever he wants to you and you cannot say boo about it. That is a very concise statement for the book. This video really was a huge eye opener.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad to hear it! Thank you

[@Parasaurolophus476]

Job was always one of the stories that really hurt and confused me as a child and as a believer. I was so upset he never got his original kids back. No amount of new children could erase the pain of losing the first ones. Now that I don't believe anymore, it's a relief in a way. Bad stuff just happens sometimes and I don't have to struggle to reconcile that with the belief in a benevolent God.

[@TracyLangnickel]

People forget Job's wife suffered too. They were HER kids too.

[@LexProntera]

Didn't you know? Holy scripture is a book club for testicle owners only.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

I enjoy a quote from Kyle in the TV show South Park when told the story of Job by his parents. He says, "Why would God do horrible things to a good person just to prove a point to Satan?" His dad's response, "Oh, uh, I don't know."

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It really is this simple

[@20july1944]

You're right, this is brutal, but it's apparently a fable rather than a story from history.

[@pansepot1490]

⁠​⁠@@20july1944 as if it being fictional made it any better. People here are appalled not because they think the story is real but because of the message it conveys, because of the abusive and unjust nature god shows in it.

[@20july1944]

@@pansepot1490 I agree, it IS icky -- speaking as a Christian.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

​@@20july1944 You're learning, and that's good! You've taken your first step into a better understanding.

[@mattakudesu]

When I first became an atheist, I was still on the fence of whether or not I was making the right decision so I was looking for any kind of synopsis or breakdown of the various stories of the bible to see if they made any sense. Job was probably the number 1 story that cemented my atheism (for christianity at least) and showed me with full transparency how absolutely warped the bible was, especially since I had already taken off my christ tinted glasses that justified every horrific thing god did. If you read the bible objectively with no sense of reverence, it is an absolute shitshow of nonsense and cruelty masquerading as "love". I HAPPILY dropped christianity in the garbage disposal once I had this realization and 13 years later still have zero regrets.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Love that!

[@arkdark5554]

"Regrets?" To have regrets…one must be insane.

[@kevinstclair7692]

Couldn't say it better, it's really cruelty masquerading as love. A God commands, that you live as he says, because he knows what would make you happy, you have no rights to choose how you should live to be happy. Talk about infringement on your rights.

[@chrishollandsworth6700]

Well said!

[@Cultsurvivor]

@@kevinstclair7692not only does he command you live his way but if you do it perfectly you end up with 10 dead kids and gaslit about what he did to you. I would rather have to jump off the empire state building and die every single day then to even put my hands together and pray ever again to this mf. What i really want to do is walk through those church doors and empty the clip out on joel osteen on live tv but that might be too extreme.

[@blumoon131]

Job has to be one of the most instrumental bible stories for deconversion. It shows Yahweh and Satan being chummy enough to make such a pretty bet and ruin a completely innocent man's life, Yahweh being such a vain bastard that he has to tear down a broken man while he brags about his exploits, and finally Yahweh being so completely devoid of love and compassion that simply giving Job new things and family (instead of bringing back the existing ones that he took away) is good enough to make up for his cruelty. And then when we go into older context, where Satan is clearly Yahweh's left-hand bud and Yahweh clearly inherited the people and land he abuses on the regular, we see that Yahweh is even more clearly a despotic monster. If Yahweh was real, we'd be obligated to kill it. And also, yeah, the people who use Job to try and say dinosaurs and man existed are people who you can openly point and mock for not reading their holy book. Those passages very clearly do not describe dinosaurs.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Problematic to the utmost!

[@a.b.2405]

Purposely making your “loved ones” suffer is the opposite of good and loving. And on top of that brag about yourself and offer no sympathy? What would we call that?

[@chrisphinney8475]

For me, it was Romans. Vessels of wrath. That God would create people with the intention of them going to hell did it. I first saw he wasn't love, and it went from there.

[@condorboss3339]

I am glad you mention the killing of Job's children, who the author of the Book of Job seems to dismiss as mere chattels to be smashed and replaced. To any sensible mind, harming the innocent children to torment their parent is regarded as an unforgivable evil.

[@jeremybristol4374]

Thanks for making this. Couldn't agree more. This is a problematic book that demonstrates an abusive relationship. The inference is that Bronze Age people often had to tolerate this type of abuse from kings, landlords, or owners; the authors just applied these sociopathic characteristics onto what they imagined a diety should be.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Very well said! Its all so very obvious.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

This story shows how much Yahweh enjoys tormenting his own creation.

[@Badficwriter]

I wish I could save this comment. Its the best explanation for Yahweh. The laws of Judaism end up being rituals to appease a psychotic monster but so complex they provide excuses for the punishment that it loves. And if you follow all the rules, it punishes anyway as an experiment. I used to think the Gnostics were stretching things by calling Yahweh a demon but they actually read the damn book.

[@bluecrystal3900]

​@@Badficwriter The gnostics were on to the truth about the Christian religion and that's why they were persecuted out of existence by those Christians. It's so ironic that Christians are the ones who whine about being persecuted when it's actually the other way around... like little petulant narcissist children aren't they...

[@claytonbond9713]

I’m 23 and was very Christian for most of my life. I had brain surgery when I was 15 and it was awful and I used this book to help me make sense of the suffering. It encouraged me to be strong through that tough part of my life. But I am happy you deconstructed it. I can see now that it was just a stupid, man-made story about compliance and loyalty. Thanks a lot!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You’ve already been through some really tough stuff and all ready figured the the truth out about this religion a decade before i did. Killing it! Thanks for watching

[@20july1944]

So are you still a Christian who doesn't think Job is a pleasant book? Remember, as BrandonTheDouchebag said, Job is really a pre-Bible book, it even predates Judaism but indicates that the YHWH monotheism that became Judaism which led to Christianity was already around.

[@MrMortal_Ra]

@@MindShift-BrandonI’m a 14-year-old male who lives in an entirely Christian apologetic family who recently left Christianity and came out as an atheist to my parents. And so far I haven’t even been able to fully express myself and my beliefs and the horrific acts and commands made by God throughout the OT to my parents. I’m convinced that my dad doesn’t give absolute shit about my beliefs and fully expressing myself. All he keeps saying is that whatever I have in my mind about God in the OT don’t worry because he’s probably thought the same thing one time and has questioned the God of the OT. But this just shows me how utterly clueless he is of the position that I’m in right now and what 14-year-old who’s left Christianity is going through. It seems that he doesn’t even get that I’m just 14 years old and have grown up all my life Christian have loved the God of the Bible to bits and have genuinely believed all the stories and claims within the bible. But then has realised that everything he knew about God, morality, and his very own beliefs were all just false and straight out a lie. And then had to hide in secret as an atheist and then have the courage to come out to my Christian parents at only 14 years old. As of now, I’m forced to pray every day and I feel like I can’t even talk to my parents about my beliefs and just express myself for who I am. It’s absolutely painful that I can’t talk to anyone or express myself, especially to my parents. But I just wanted to ask you, what should I do?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@MrMortal_Ra man thats so so hard. I cant imagine your situation. Heres a few facts. Im sure your parents love you. They really believe they are right. You are still dependent on them. With all that in mind, i think you need to try to keep the religious discussion to a minimum. Im sure its tempting to want to pleas your case but for now it might be a agree to disagree situation. I wish i had more for you. Reach out as often as you need and try to strike a balance or healthy boundary with them best you can.

[@chrisphinney8475]

God just wants obedience. He doesn't care about morals, faith, love. Just obedience. Without any thinking for yourself.

[@javk8673]

The way u enunciate every syllable in the word "every " scratches an itch in my brain please never stop

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol! I legit never noticed till people started pointing it out. Thats so funny

[@thetruest7497]

Job is easily my favorite story because it's so obviously man made and not what Christians think it is. You can judge how honest your interlocutor is by how they view the Job story.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats a great point

[@20july1944]

I agree with you, this is a fable rather than history.

[@thetruest7497]

@20july1944 a good fable at that. This was their explanation for why bad stuff happens... and their conclusion was "💩 happens 🤷🏿‍♂️" which is correct. I was talkin about this with my fundie mother on Sunday. You miss the whole point of the story when you try to theologize it.

[@dougt7580]

​@@thetruest7497I often wonder what the ancient writers of much of this literature would think about how, many,many centuries later, some people appropriated their works, crammed them into a giant anthology with works from many different peoples, from many different times, and declared them as factually true and part of an over-arching (semi-coherent) narrative.

[@20july1944]

@@thetruest7497 What is your alternative explanation for the universe?

[@tbstoller]

In the show Good Omens 2, they use the story of Job to be the tipping point in the angel's "deconstruction." He is appalled that God wanted to kill Job's children and then just give him new children afterwards, like that evened everything out. It was fascinating.

[@myrawest]

When I was at the very beginning of my questioning phase, the one thing that held me back was the feeling that I was "betraying God," who at that time I loved more than anything. The one thing that completely set me free was to ask myself "What if I am not questioning God at all? What if this whole thing was simply made up by mere men, with the intent of control?" From then on I was able to look at everything from the perspective of "What benefit does this passage/idea/law have for the men of the time who wrote this?" Suddenly every single thing made sense

[@rebeccaippolito912]

Right... it's like... take-off your god glasses 👓... and put on you men in leadership glasses 👓

[@donharris8846]

The most despicable and usually- not discussed- aspect of the Job story is the murder of Job’s kids as if that is there only role, as just Job’s kids. They aren’t considered people unto themselves who have friends and likes and dreams, just things to be killed to torture Job and likewise things that can easily be replaced

[@a.b.2405]

This right here. Christians don’t care that his kids died. Anyone who isn’t a grown man is replaceable apparently. Just something to have and throw away.

[@smidlee7747]

@@a.b.2405 Everyone in Job's time have died thousands of years ago. Atheist don't care about the resurrection of Jesus Christ who will bring them back to life.

[@nicolasstanley1392]

I really appreciate your ability to articulate logic in the face of the indoctrination and hypocrisy. ❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@26beegee]

Well done, Brandon. I was always disgusted by God in Job. All that suffering to win a bet with Satan? Sadly, for several years my mom went through hell with an alcoholic brother and often spoke of identifying with Job. It broke my heart. Before my daughter’s death at 39 she suffered for years with severe PTSD so I know my mom’s pain. Life hurts. That is the truth.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right! So inexcusable and so sad for how believers have to take it and how they try to use it. I hate it so much

[@ianbuick8946]

Can't agree more, life is suffering. One can play victim, _curse God and die_ as Job's wife suggested or There isn't any or else. Find whatever coping mechanism you like: money, drug, sex, food, entertainment, etc. Satan has plenty to offer.

[@26beegee]

@@ianbuick8946 But there is no Satan just as there is no God. There doesn’t need to be either one. Good and bad things happen to everyone. Natural disasters don’t discriminate. Disease doesn’t discriminate. Being a victim or victimizer occurs equally among believers and non-believers. Exactly what one would expect in the natural world. Not what one would expect if spirit beings existed. To live in reality or in a fantasy of the mind is the only choice we can control. I tried living in the fantasy for over 50 years (it didn’t work very well) - now I prefer reality.

[@carlasmith9093]

​@@ianbuick8946but the question is, why is life suffering? And why was God so cavalier about increasing the suffering for someone he himself lauded as faithful and righteous, including the consequences for Job's wife and children. Was that good?

[@eprd313]

​@@ianbuick8946Stockholm syndrome much?

[@EarnestApostate]

"Job is a story written by the atheist" I couldn't have put it better myself.

[@charlesvandenburgh5295]

If I were still a Christian and still attending bible college I would want to form an apologetics group and have them listen to your videos and challenge them to give convincing biblical answers. I wager most would quickly drop out, some would stop believing, and most certainly the bible college I attended would shut it down. Thanks for such a clear reckoning of the Christian god taken right from scripture itself.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Best compliment of the day, ha! Thank you. Appreciate the kind encouragement!

[@Bojan12]

True Christins do not give up that easily because they personally know their God. And when I say personally know God I meant it that no matter what you do you cannot convince them that He is not real and not present in their life and things like this cannot shake them easily

[@charlesvandenburgh5295]

I use to say and believe the same thing. Even now, some of my old Christian aquintances refuse to accept I no longer believe, chalking it up to temporary backsliding, or some secret sin.@@Bojan12

[@josephcollins6033]

So embarrassed; will never get over that. I totally dissected that book. I thought it was such great WISDOM!!! Why (I guess I know why) do we completely lose our brains when faced with "god"? All of it sounds much, much more archaic than Grimm's fairy tales! And, yet we know those are false. Amen to you, Brandon! Preach it, Brother!!! And, thank you.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I share the embarrassment! Cant believe how long i made excuses for this horrific book!

[@arkdark5554]

@@MindShift-Brandon Where was your brain, my brother 😅, when making those excuses? Don’t get angry. You damn religion people…

[@chrishollandsworth6700]

Same. Went from favorite book to worst piece of literature ever written.

[@josephcollins6033]

@@chrishollandsworth6700 Amen, brother!!!

[@chrisphinney8475]

People believe it because they are raised in it. Everyone else believes it. They instill a fear in you, guilt you, shame you. It makes it hard to actually see it for what it is. The fear and guilt stop critical thinking.

[@krelbin]

I love how much religion simply boils down to if you are having a problem or experiencing hardship then it’s clearly because YOU are guilty of something and it’s up to you to figure it out. Scientology and cults have the same mindset, that it’s not the scripture that’s wrong but something you’re hiding and that’s why you’re guilty and receiving some sort of divine test. It’s victim mentality but on a mass scale. “Trust me, it’s not that God doesn’t exist and the world has been, and mostly likely will remain a hellscape, but it’s because you aren’t believing enough;or that you’re hiding your sin; or that you’re being tested.”

[@evanurena8868]

Its the most ultimate disingenuous form of gaslighting you can possibly think of.

[@patrickbaldwin8293]

Job was what really turned me away. I was still a fairly new Christian and had so many doubts while going through something in my life. I started reading Job as I wanted to see how he handled his suffering. The book of Job made try to be more like Job at first. I thought if God could allow that to happen to Job, and Job wouldn't curse God, then I need to be more like Job. There was always a way to twist words in the bible to make God appear loving and eventually I gave up as I didn't truly believe it was love. Everything was a test to earn my love and I just needed to force myself to believe it.

[@stevegeorge6880]

I always remember this serving as a major bit of evidence in the book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind in which it was suggested that human brains initially may have had little direct connection between the hemispheres and that this might have explained how religion originally presented as one side of the brain literally talking to the other but being perceived as speaking from outside the mind and therefore having a divine origin. The way in which Job factored into this was that it was the oldest book in the Bible and that one can see the language is simpler and the experience of the divine voice is relatively direct and unmediated by literary concepts of an outside character. Not sure how much study this framing has prompted or if it has been relatively debunked on a literal level, but it does seem fruitful for asking questions about how people thousands of years ago understood religious experience and what it felt like for them.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

That is a fascinating concept. Any other sources besides the book you mentioned, if i wanted to dig in?

[@stevegeorge6880]

@@MindShift-Brandon none that I can think of off the top of my head, and I didn't read the book in itself as much as I read an extensive summary review with quotations and footnotes almost thirty years ago. Thank you for all the work that you do here.

[@herewegokids7]

Eff me....the gaslighting perpetrated by God

[@andrewferg8737]

The observations of brain science are very interesting, but your conclusion that manifestation is apriori does not follow of necessity from those observations. On the contrary, there are rational grounds for suggesting the very opposite. “It is clear that these physical-only processes somehow on the one hand give us the right answers, but on the other hand that they are controlled by another world of ideas somehow; they’re coming from somewhere else” (Professor Nima Arkani-Hamed--- 2012 Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, and director of The Center for Future High Energy Physics) "The mystery is not that there are three worlds, although each is a mystery in itself. The worlds are there: the physical, the mental, and the abstract. Rather, the mystery is in how they connect" (Roger Penrose 2019)

[@jeffrutan2344]

That book had some impact on me in the early 1990s. I still have it on my bookshelf. Never finished reading it.

[@Octoberfurst]

Even when I was a Christian I had a big problem with the Book of Job. Job was a righteous man who did everything God wanted. But, on a bet, God allows Satan to bring misery to Job by killing his family, taking all his property and giving him sores all over his body just to see if Job will remain faithful to God. The whole premise is horrible! And in the end when Job begs God to tell him why this is happening to him God appears and mocks him and basically says, "How DARE you question anything I do, you mere mortal?" Hell, he doesn't even tell Job that this was all due to a bet! Unfortunately Job's response is to grovel before God and beg his forgiveness. God rewards Job's groveling by giving him a new family and more property. As if that makes up for his lost children! He could at least resurrected them!

[@CBraximus]

God is an "end always justifies the means. Don't question it." Type

[@brianandrews9428]

I've said this before, but the fact is that in JOB chapter 2 God says to Satan "You incited me against him [Job] for NO REASON ". So then WHY did God AGREE with Satan to "TEST" Job [actually to TORTURE him] We are told that God can see the future, so God could FORESEE how Job remained faithful despite all his terrible suffering. How callously CRUEL.

[@levimark548]

Some say that the fact that it says Job got everything back doubled but not the children means that he didn't lost the first 10 children. If they were truly lost then god would have to give job 20 Children but he gave just another 10 because 10+10 = 20 so he has the double amount now. The only problem I see are the animals. They were the only ones with the double amount so some conclude that they are cease to exist so God had to give job the double amount. Why god didn't resurrected the animals or make them live forever like the first 10 children. That's the problem for me in this story.

[@fmitsinc9146]

Job's story intends to make you doubt your doubts. They claim God has a wisdom in everything he does and we don't understand at the present why what happened has happened. But in reality we suffer and sometimes our life is turned upside down for no fault of ours and we never know what was that wisdom and will never know.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Life is just life. No god or reason needed. Acceptance and getting rid of the fairytales goes a long way!

[@denisebutler5938]

It’s pretty disgusting that a god uses everything for himself though isn’t it? It must be nice to do what you want, when you want and to whom you want, while at the same time calling a weaker creation who dares to behave that way…WICKED! He’s a tyrannical, narcissistic, blood thirsty hypocrite. His “chosen ones”, who WROTE THAT CRAP act just like him which is why the world is one big Toilet!

[@20july1944]

@@MindShift-Brandon Have you ever addressed cosmogony or the origin of Christianity? You take pot-shots at Bible books but I haven't seen you address science.

[@erin6784]

​@@20july1944If I may, many and most churches focus on the books and teach by the stories and not their origins. Is it not more fitting to address the utilized source as opposed to the origin that goes undiscussed on Sunday?

[@markthefan]

​@@MindShift-Brandonexactly, except for poor Job who literally got his life turned upside down OVER A BET GOD GOT MAD AT SATAN FOR SAYING JOB WOULD NOT BE FAITHFUL TO HIM SO GOD STRAIGHT UP GAVE PERMISSION FOR THE DEVIL HIMSELF TO DESTROY JOB'S LIFE AND THE WORST PART IS THE "ALL POWERFUL BEING" WHO CREATED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE AND HAS RESERECTED PEOPLE BEDORE DOESN'T EVEN RESERECT HIS CHILDREN OR WIFE!!??

[@AlDoFit99]

The book that broke my faith. God lets Satan kill Job’s kids. But it’s all good in the end cause he’ll get new ones. Evidently, God felt that Job’s old family is expendable.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup!

[@Bojan12]

You know that life does not need to end after death. Do not let these things break you

[@AlDoFit99]

@@Bojan12 The only thing I know for sure is that we all live, and we all will die. There is no way to observe and confirm anything past that, sorry.

[@floristfindspeace]

@@Bojan12 could you elaborate on this?

[@Bojan12]

@@Xdryad1989 True and if some of them have been reserved for Hell after death than that is even better for Job because they would be huge obstacles in his life and they and him will have hell between them

[@mamavermicel5385]

The Book of Job used to be one of my favorite when I was a believer alongside Ecclesiastes. The subject of suffering has always been important and relatable to me, that's probably why I spent so much time reading and studying these books and learning about theodicies. Sadly neither theologians, neither what I considered to be the word of God convinced me, I felt like I've been deceived or felt guilty because all I wanted to do was to increase my faith. And that still hurts... To be honest, Ecclesiastes remains my favorite from the Bible, even though it does not have the same meaning for me now. I am looking forward your video on this one ! Thank you and greetings from France !

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Bonjour! Thanks so much for being here. Yes i relate to all this so much!

[@dougt7580]

Ecclesiastes might be the one book in the Bible that I would recommend modern people read and think about, mostly for its 'philosophy of life' advice. Sure, some other books have some good things to say here or there, but to get to them you have to wade through a giant pile of stuff that's some combination of stupid, factually incorrect, morally repugnant, or just completely irrelevant to someone living in our current time.

[@OldMotherLogo]

These secular Bible studies videos are fantastic. Thank you!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear. Thanks for always watching!

[@andrewferg8737]

"Read not to contradict and confute, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and to consider. Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed and some few to be chewed and digested" (Francis Bacon d. 1626, originator of the scientific method)

[@bartosz.holubowicz]

What disgusts me the most is how God mercifully placed a rule that Job should not be killed during his bet, and then he allowed killing of his own family. I'd rather be killed myself instead of witnessing my family being killed.

[@Redx3257]

Job was the last story from the bible i listened to with my family. The very next morning i woke up turned to my wife and said, "this is all bullshit huh?" There were cracks and questions before, but this was the last straw. I finally saw the pure evil that the god of the bible was described as. It was like the shackles of intellectual honesty had been taken off and i could finally be honest with myself. Been an Atheist ever since.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Love that. How freeing!

[@briannazq7596]

This story of Job really struck home. I had to despise myself in order to appease an abusive husband. It's amazing to me that I buried my objections to this god for so many decades. Like Job, who was I to question god?

[@CJoyArt]

If this doesn't convince someone, I don't know what would.

[@suzibikerbabe8073]

So Job was rewarded with material things .. the things we're told to give away. Interesting. 🤔

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha indeed!

[@thejuiceking2219]

like the gem encrusted mansions we all get when we die

[@dominicflynn93]

These videos are so important, thanks for putting them out.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that. Thanks for watching!

[@addy8078]

There’s something so messed up with whoever came up with the story of Job!! The fact that people teach kids that this God is Love?! Insanity

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Well put! Insane indeed

[@XRamenmaX]

It took the years to get past Job and finally give up belief in a god. I could criticize any and every other book in the Bible, but Job always felt more real, more personal, and it help me much longer than I'd like to admit. It was finally criticizing nearly every aspect of that story much like you have here to finally break that last link in the chain.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It really is strange how our brain under religion works

[@SupremeScientist]

Whenever I bring up the bible supporting SLAVERY, a Christian usually throws the Book of Job at me, as if that explains it. 👎🏿 Thanks for this video!!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

What a gross excuse. Job is a catch all for dont question god.

[@20july1944]

Really? I'm a Christian and I don't see Job related to slavery at all. You're chatting with uniformed Christians.

[@SupremeScientist]

@@20july1944 The Book of Job is supposed to address themes of suffering, adversity, and injustice and how our life experiences, including slavery, are ultimately beyond human comprehension. I don't agree. I think it’s both a (poor) excuse to avoid dealing w/ complex issues and a 'get out of jail free' card for god, the dude who's responsible for suffering. 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@karenmiller6088]

​@@20july1944uninformed Christians? With all due respect, which of the 36+ thousand Christian denominations would you suggest would give the correct answer? I don't need the view of all 36 thousand and, it's unfortunate that non of them can agree so, being that you are in that mix, how would you respond?

[@20july1944]

@@karenmiller6088 If you think Job is related to slavery, explain how. I don't see the connection.

[@Pfsif]

All powerful and loving 😆😅🤣😂🙃.

[@paper-chasepublications9433]

When I got older and "woke up," I realized God and the Devil wagered on Job's life just like Mortimer and Randolph did in that 80s movie "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd! They treated him like he was nothing, over nothing. SMH. Anyway, this is my favorite video I've seen of yours so far, other than the one about the different Gods, which made me subscribe to your channel.🔥🔥🔥

[@dawnalawrence6584]

The book of Job is the MAIN one that rocked my faith to the point where I started to wonder if God and Satan were 2 halves of one EVIL entity! The story of Abraham and Issac was my other BIG one.

[@graceomweri]

I always had a problem with the restoration part. You cannot replace children. having other 7 children does not remove the pain of losing the first 7 children.

[@TheChadUnKnown]

19:12 Good Omens Season 2 lampoons the story of Job. And it is amazing in every way. Neil Gaiman perfectly illustrates the true and terrible nature of what happened.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ill check it out!

[@TheChadUnKnown]

​@@MindShift-Brandonseason 2 episode 2 "The Clue". I highly recommend the series, Neil Gaiman is my favorite author and he is a widely known scholar on religion as well. His work often brings to light the ridiculousness of religion. Most people know him for writing Sandman or American Gods.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@TheChadUnKnown ive read 4 of his books and hes not quite as high on my list. Ive been meaning to check out the show. Thanks

[@TheChadUnKnown]

@@MindShift-Brandon I understand 😅. No worries. Thanks for listening!

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Actually, I think, he softened it, too much. Also - did not Job's wife, also get... got? Originally. Also, still miss Terry... a lot.@@TheChadUnKnown

[@ChrisSmith-xh9wb]

The story of Job does not need "excuses". it is a magnificent work of literature that addresses human suffering in a masterful way, constantly challenging our preconceived notions (including the "triomni god" you mentioned, which is a philosophical concept, not only inconsistent in itself but totally inadequate in the face of the Biblical God"). It is also a glorious poetic work, a joy to read, especially the high point in chapter 19, the defiant declaration of faith that Handel set to music so beautifully in the "Messiah". From my perspective, my life has been enriched by reading the book (which coincidentally I did last week), and the only problem i have with it (as a biologist) is is slanderous dismissal of the ostriches maternal instincts (which occurs also in Jeremiah). I would also add that God does not need "excuses". He is answerable to no one, not you. me or anyone else. Speaking as someone who came to Christianity from a previous atheist position, I am forever in awe of the grace he has shown to me in taking my sin to the cross and opening for me the door into his eternal presence. That grace is available to everyone, except for those who, having known about it choose to reject it . The Job character did not know about Jesus Christ, but reached out in faith and received in the end the grace he sought. That, above all, is what I take from the story, and reflects my own joumey of faith.

[@CraftyCarder-pe8zx]

Finally a light in the darkness answer. 1. We live in a broken world where Satan roams trying to bring us down. 2. God does have control over his creation and is in charge of what happens. 3. God uses all things to bring about His glory for those who trust in Him. 4. God allows suffering for multiple reasons. One is because of our own sins. A second is to test us. A third is free will of humans. 5. Just because someone looses everything does not mean that God has abandoned them, God does not care about them, God does not have a purpose for them.

[@blade_warrior_blue]

I'm so glad you're covering this! Thank you. Love your channel.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you! Appreciate you watching and being here. These SBS episodes get little love compared to the rest of my stuff so love the support.

[@SentimentalApe]

It was an interesting moment watching you say out loud, “…and if he only blesses me with curses… which would just be cursing I guess.” You deconstructed a Christian mentality before our very eyes. I’ve had those moments also; it’s liberating. I love your channel. Thank you for doing what you do.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha. Thanks for that insight! Appreciate the kind words and you being here!

[@zacharylehocki]

As a Christian Job was one of my favorite books too and now as an ex-Christian and a strong atheist Job is still one of my favorite books in the Bible. But aw let`s say for slightly different reasons! (lol) Thank you for this Brandon its very enlightening to have your perspectives change.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha. Yes my reasons changed dramatically also lol. Thank you!

[@donharris8846]

Damn it’s like you read my mind. I’ve been viewing so many apologetics videos to hear explanations of the Job story and searching throughout all of your videos for a discussion on Job. 👌🏾 Right on time.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad to be useful! Thanks so much for watching!

[@Athens2021]

Next to the story of Adam and Eve getting expelled from Eden, the tale of Job is what made me into a misotheist. The creator is a monster and enslaver.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Omg I like the heat in this one! 😂 I cracked up near the end when you said, "I've got a thousand female donkeys! 😀" 🤣🤣🤣 In all seriousness though, Job was a *huge* issue for me. I couldn't contort my mind enough to view it as anything other than abjectly horrifying even back when I was in church. I'll say it right now: The Book of Job is the single greatest work of cosmic horror ever penned; in it Man is nothing more than a mortal meat puppet caught up in an incomprehensible wager between two supernatural forces. It's freaking terrifying. 😰 I'll say too that I'm not sure whether any other work has ever come to have such an opposite effect from its original intent. If only whoever wrote Job could only see how damaging it turned out to be for many wavering believers.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! And terrifying indeed too. What a wild, wild book! Thank you

[@johntiggleman4686]

H.P. Lovecraft gets close with some of his writings.

[@shirleysw21]

Every video I come across from you makes me happy because everything you speak is what I'm thinking about everyday. It reassure me I'm not alone in these kind of thoughts. I've tried asking before and ended up learning never trust any minister with any questions. I never want to be demonized nor demoralized ever again. Everything you talk on your videos every church and religion should take to heart instead of making a person feel like nothing or they said something horrifying.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to help normalize. Thanks!

[@shiroamakusa8075]

"Hey, look at my son, he's so nice and well-behaved!" "Yeah, but if you abused him constantly and made his life a living hell, he'd get upset about that!" "Sounds like a plan. Deal!" -god, the "perfect" being

[@rebone6550]

The book of Job is the one book in the bible that made me really start detaching from the idea of a God. The only thing I took from that book was; the closer you lean to God, the more crap you are going to have to take. Why would a loving God bet on a faithful servent whome He knows is going to pass the test? Then boast and gets angry after being asked why?... that's horrible! And an unhealthy relationship.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! Very very telling

[@CBraximus]

All I hear is my abusive stepfather when I hear loving Jesus speaking to Job a little more honestly, while his face is hidden.

[@midwinter78]

At the University of Oxford there is an infamous organisation called the Bullingdon Club, a club for very rich students who would trash restaurants and then pay for the damage - it’s now apparently a tiny vestige. They’re not popular - “but I compensated them in full” doesn’t cut it for most people, at least as far as mortals are concerned. And that’s just for having a room in your restaurant ruined…

[@Djax111]

I think it was a great point to add about how much can we truly know or how much are we allowed to know. I don't think many people think of that kind of take-away from this story. Another great Secular study! Thanks Brandon!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that! Thank you so much

[@Djax111]

@@MindShift-Brandon anytime!

[@FLATearthGARY]

It’s so unbelievable, that it’s UNBELIEVABLE!

[@Muhluri]

26:27 god really went "you like Pokémon? OK, name every Pokémon"

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Haha! So good

[@warrenbim7204]

My GOLLY Brandon! Your work is stellar throughout! Sending you encouraging energies and resiliency of spirit! So grateful for what you're doing.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So kind. Appreciate that so much!

[@kittylover1002]

You are so articulate and put everything in words so efficiently! It’s almost like you managed to express things I’ve thought for years but couldn’t say out loud.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So nice to hear. Thank you!

[@Y0urY4kuza]

Once I started questioning this golden calf, I could no longer see Job the same way. Thank you Jon for setting me free

[@JahHawks]

Yo brandon...I've been waiting for this exact moment for you to get to this book... I'm about start watching. This is gonna be a doozy. Thank you for the content

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So kind. Hope it lives up to the hype. Ha.

[@myrawest]

YESSSSS!! I have been waiting for this one. Just saw the title and got so excited 😃 (In case you read this, I have been binging EVERY one of your videos)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I read every single comment, at least for now ha. And i reply as often as i can. Thank you so much for your constant support then and i hope this one lives up to the expectation. Appreciate you being here!

[@betzib8021]

I remember feeling resentment that God so discounted the wife and children as valuable humans.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

As you should have

[@pansepot1490]

Apologists do that all the time. When confronted with the problem of evil, or better, the problem of suffering, they always invoke free will. As if rape victims, abused children, people who get murdered were just expendable puppets to allow the evil doers the possibility of “exercising their free will”. It seems no thought is spared for the victims and THEIR free will of not becoming victims.

[@betzib8021]

@@pansepot1490 I'm glad that deeper truth escaped me at the time or I would have been extremely rude to some very well meaning people. Now I look back and cannot believe I was ever sucked in as much as I was.

[@bluecrystal3900]

Brandon i have only been watching your channel for a month now and this video really hit home for me. I am now deconverted after being brainwashed into the Christ-insanity for 25 years and i always had reservations about Job. The Baptist churches would use Job as a way to explain when we cant understand why evil was done to us for apparantly no reason, when we've been faithful. But, as a caveat, the Job explanation usually took a backseat to the "free will" explanation. I was also consistently told that "God was in control" and the confusion of this literally wrecked my brain. I dont mind saying the gaslighting effect of their doctrinal contradictions caused me to have several nervous breakdowns. I am sooooooo glad i found your channel, it is by far the Best Atheist channel to watch and learn from... ❤ Keep up the Good Works! 😂

[@DavidAmis2005]

These videos of yours are absolutely informative and educational. Very good!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So good to hear! Thank you!

[@danman3542]

Love your videos, keep up the good work. They have really helped me with feeling at peace thank you

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats all i want. Thanks for letting me know!

[@luizr.5599]

Hey Brandon! You're gonna love the latest Bart Ehrman episode on Job.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh excited to check it out but curious why you say so

[@susansteinkraus2821]

Thanks! I've been looking for a detailed analysis of Job for quite a while.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats very kind! Thank you so much for this generous support!

[@sbnwnc]

Here's a bit more than I usually give. I guess I"m sort of bribing you to read what I'm about to write. I hope you do read it though! :)

[@sbnwnc]

So here's the thing: you're right overall, but you are missing the larger point. Your normally sound analysis is misplaced here. Let me explain why.

[@sbnwnc]

First: God does not exist. _The Book of Job_ is a piece of literature. We agree there. But you have to imagine that in the world that Job inhabits, God _does_ exist. And that God is the God of the Bible. Thus, we have to take the Book as it is written. In _that world_ God exists. In that world Job *is* a sinner. In fact he is the greatest sinner of all, because he commits the greatest sin in the Hebraic worldview. Job is an *idolator.*

[@sbnwnc]

We can see this by the things that he does. He prays for his children because the "might have sinned in their hearts." He does good things believing that there will be proportionate reward. He worships a false god. The real God (as that God exists in the Book of Job) is totally unlike the idol that Job worships. The _actual_ God's sense of justice is simply beyond human comprehension. You were close to that point when you mentioned the wonders of nature and poetic way in which they are described. Job believes in a correspondence theory of justice where rewards correspond to actions. God's justice isn't like that. What is it really like? Stfu. You can't understand it. It's mystical. You can't hear it with your ears. You have to have a direct experience, a mystical experience of the Truth-In-Itself. You have to see it with your eyes. And once you have seen it, you can't speak about it. The beauty of that natural world is beyond you. That beauty is truly *awful* in the old sense of the word.

[@sbnwnc]

So, I think you are right in a sense. The _Book of Job_ is subversive. It should be read a critique of a type of Old Testament "Prosperity Gospel" that Job's comforters are preaching. They don't get it. Job gets it in the end. Justice is beyond human understanding. The god of the correspondence theory of justice [good things will happen to you if you are good] is simply an idol. That isn't the real God. In some sense, the author of the Book of Job is indeed looking at this from the perspective of an atheist.

[@sbnwnc]

Second, and in a related way, the _Book of Job_ is an example of philosophical speculation on the riddle of iniquity. It's a theodicy. It's an attempt to answer the question of evil in the world of a God who definitely exists. Remember, it's a piece of literature. In the Book of Job, God 100% exists. So if that's true, then why do bad things happen to good people? The Book of Job gives two answers: (1) Bad things happen to good people because humans are very small part of the natural world. That world, the natural world of the cosmos, has a grandeur that carries its own logic. It encompasses all things from Orion's Belt to how ravens feed their young. (2) Bad things happen to good people and they suffer more than they should because humans think they understand how the world works. But we don't understand it. We suffer because we have idols.

[@ND_NB]

Thank goodness there was a scribe there to note down the conversation between god and satan.

[@RiannaNicole]

i used to love Job when i was in the faith, and am glad i’m going back through your videos and decided to watch this one. near the ending of Job, of repentance, that hit me as you were saying, that how manipulative and abusive is that story.

[@perilousrange]

I think the story of Job lands very differently for believers and non-believers. Could you explain how you processed it, when you were in the faith? I'm not attempting to debate you; but to see it from the other side.

[@tongasmith910]

Thanks!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you!

[@kettei7743]

The story of Job was always fascinating for me as a kid, it was unusually harsh compared to some of the things we were taught in Sunday school. The story of God and Satan making a bet over Job's misfortune is a literary framing device for the authors to grapple with these questions, God here is really just sort of an incidental-explanatory character in this story. This is why this story is all over the place, because as you mentioned, it is an ancient attempt at understanding suffering around the world and why the righteous suffer, giving different answers in the process, as it is exemplified in the interactions Job has with his friends. Its kinda curious how God chides his friends for offering their simplistic answers. It is one of the greatest works of ancient poetry and literature about people wrestling with big questions, and it is very disappointing to see how, as some people have pointed out in the comments, how this story is used to for some to literally shame them of the very act having doubts.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

We agree on much here. But i think the problem is. Believers claim it as truth and why shouldn’t they. Its in the cannon. We are told this is what god says and thinks. Why should this be just some weird out of context book and metaphor but Jesus resurrection and blood really did happen and pay for our sins. At some point, i think you have to either accept the whole bible or reject the whole bible. Picking what seems to make sense morally today is an odd way of interpreting god’s i spired word. Not saying thats what you are doing, but what many who dismiss job do

[@kettei7743]

@@MindShift-Brandon That’s indeed the heart of the issue, as in with what assumptions religious people like me or others approach the text. For me at least, I'm content with the fact that these texts represent an evolving perspective on what God is, and how they deal with the questions that come from that and specially considering that all interactions with the texts is itself a form of negociation. I’m personally attracted to what Randal Rauser calls providential errancy, but that probably opens a huge cans of worms about how is this even a good way of taking what for many is supposed to be God’s inspired word, but it is a discussion for another time. (Btw, Randal would be a perfect guess for you to invite for channel IMO, I’d pay to see a conversation between you two haha)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ill look into him

[@louisnemzer6801]

"Good Omens" season 2 did an amazing job of retelling the story of Job.

[@michaelhenry1763]

This is one of my favorite books in the Bible. I think it is the author’s attempt to rebuke the classical prophetic answers to the problem of evil. I love the poetry and the image of God’s heavenly court with the sons of God. I love the idea of God fighting a sea monster. At the end I am disappointed that the author allows Job to be silenced and never truly answered.

[@deb6252]

Wow. Wow. Thank you a thousand times. Job has always made my skin crawl. And a migraine trying to find a shred of logic, sense or plausibility. What a superb takedown. Yes!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Deb! Glad to help shine a light

[@everettyoung9325]

Wow that was so powerful. Probably my favorite video you’ve made.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man, thats great to hear. Thanks for saying so

[@mark.guitar]

Literary analysis. Looks like we have the ballad of Job. Looking forward to your fuller breakdown of the apologetics.

[@mintybadger6905]

Every time I hear people justify the actions in the book of Job, they sound like they’re in an abusive relationship.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It’s impossible not to. Everything about this is textbook.

[@RickNBacker]

Another thing about the authorship - how did the author observe the meeting between god and the angels and satan? If he went "out of body" into the "astral realm" or something of that nature, that's something that a Christian would label as occult or new age. If he was "inspired by the holy spirit" to write it, how is that any different from a dream, a hallucination, a vision, etc. So if anyone writes a fictional story and claims it was inspired by the holy spirit, are Christians going to automatically believe it and label it the word of god?

[@NubileReptile]

God replacing Job's children with new, even better children is one of the best examples of the old adage 'The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.' In the 21st century, in the western world, a good parent regards their child as a free individual, someone whose life has value regardless of their relationship with the parent. But Job was written in a time and a place where children were basically the property of their father, and if God kills some of them he can just replace them like a parent buying their child a new goldfish. It's an alien view of morality, and a fascinating insight into how people of millenia past viewed the world, but I don't envy the devout believer who has to try and make it applicable as a moral lesson today.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Well said!

[@20july1944]

Yes, speaking as a Christian, Job is a fable written in a primitive time.

[@joesmith4098]

Great work as usual! This brought back some tough memories. Reading Job was the first step in my deconversion, I read it to get some answers about why life was kicking my tail, and I knew Job had the answers, but all I got was the same questions in the video. Well done.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you! Thats very interesting to hear. I think people already suffering read Job and it only hurts more. Thats why they have to best the story’s twisted message into you when you are sre young before the awareness of life comes.