Britt Hartley: The Future of American Religion | Mindshift Podcast #5

[@rokkitserjun]

I'd rather deal with uncomfortable truth than live in a comfortable lie. The truth may make life temporarily harder, but at least when you know the truth, you can come up with actual solutions instead of emotional band-aids.

[@totonow6955]

Agree. The band aids come off and the wound underneath is still there, unhealed or maybe worse. It hard but necessary.

[@abiliv-lf9tz]

N also you could slowly remove a band-aid so it doesn't hurt that much y'know ? There's other ways

[@maggienewton8518]

right! I don't want anyone to take away my right to meet challenges by lying to me. Eyes wide open, every time.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Actual solutions. With ya!

[@hamobu]

That's assuming that there's an actual solution

[@JJSaund]

I have been deconstructing for 3+ years and have listened to hundreds and hundreds of hours of videos and podcasts. This was one of the most helpful and captivating/thought-provoking. Fantastic work both of you!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear that. Thanks you!

[@floccinaucinihilipilifications]

Agreed

[@aaron_thatsmyname]

This is possibly the most well rounded, practical dialogue I've listened to that honestly addresses these real dilemmas without attempting to completely disavow one side or the other. Confronting death, parenting and cultural traditions, the real loss when someone deconverts... so much gold here that I will be processing and coming back to routinely. After deconverting 3 years ago, I have been wandering pretty aimlessly without my traditional Christian guidelines for life and morality. This conversation seriously gave me some clear tracks to run on and put words behind a lot of my confusion. Keep doing this work.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you so much for this comment. Really glad to have been of help and appreciate your thoughtful reply!

[@AntitheticShine]

This video was it, Brandon. These two hours are THE summation of both my hopes and anxieties for my future and what I want to contribute to our world. I’m 23, and I can’t yet imagine how I can help implement any of these good things in NEW ways for society at large. What’s one mere person going to do? It’s really hard to not despair. But I’m so thankful that people ahead of me are talking through this confusing and complicated transition that much of the world’s going through. Maybe these quasi-communities on the internet are already helping us form tangible rituals. All I know is that we can’t do much by ourselves, so I hope we keep taking each step sincerely like you two do with your children.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much for this!

[@FoursWithin]

Every person is a living example of their own world view.. Don't ignore the ripple effect even if it's difficult to see those effects much of the time. Look at what Brandon alone has done for so many people simply by sharing his ideas and views in a respectful and clear manner.

[@areuaware6842]

The US government is the church that you are all forced to tithe to.

[@starlingswallow]

Whats one mere person gonna do? GREAT QUESTION! In my opinion, we all need to work on our own stuff, look inward, heal, become our core self, love ourselves and THAT will change the people and the world around us. This is my belief. ❤ Religion gives people the idea of "I'm clean" and then programs people to focus on "fixing" others. I keep going back to the oxygen mask picture; put on your own oxygen mask first and then help others get theirs on. Thanks for your beautiful comment.

[@starlingswallow]

@@FoursWithinbeautiful point! Yes, the ripple affect! ❤

[@sdb6757]

I recently had minor surgery and was put out totally unconscious. As I was waking up, I thought “no, no! I don’t want to wake up! I want to go back to blessed nothingness “. Since then I really don’t fear death at all.

[@JimmyTuxTv]

My last time under I woke up thinking about playing hockey… middle aged beer leaguer at your service

[@tico78742]

Sometimes I look forward to nothingness. Life is painful and often stressful. I feel powerless to change it.

[@abiliv-lf9tz]

I only fear the pain that comes with death And death when I still had a dream for myself

[@Ephesians-yn8ux]

I’m worried about involuntarily shitting my pants upon death.

[@alfresco8442]

Yup, the same complete oblivion that comes with anaesthesia is what awaits us all. If you really think about it, that is infinitely preferable to an eternity in 'paradise', because eternity isn't just a really long time, it's eternity. You could have every secret of the universe revealed to you; you could experience everything there is to experience a thousand times over...and you'd still have eternity stretching in front of you like it had never even started...bored stiff, with no escape, for ever.

[@Chlore725]

@ 1:02:21 I think it’s one of the hardest feelings to let go as an atheist. She talks about the nice feeling of being witnessed by a higher being and thinking that what you do is a part of a larger project which somehow adds fulfilment. I think for me it also adds to the fact that when you leave religion you are no longer able to blame bad things on the devil and you are forced to reconcile with the fact that bad things happen and are as natural as good things happening which is so hard as we were programmed to not take accountability by religion.

[@JoBo301]

You have to accept as an atheist that ultimately no-one's life actually matters and everyone will be destroyed forever.

[@Jcs57]

@@JoBo301 That doesn’t sound right at all. As a lifelong atheist my life matters to me in the present. My life matters to those around me In the moment. My descendants will carry on in the future and this will matter to them. Living and loving is better than not having lived or loved at all. In 60 trillion years will anything have mattered probably not but we live in the now when it matters.

[@FoursWithin]

​@@JoBo301 Being atheist has only one criteria, which concerns lacking belief in any of the gods. There are no doctrines and nothing else to accept. What matters to any individual is their choice and ultimately theirs alone. Arbitrary rule making conivers such as yourself don't have any say in the matter regardless of whatever self-righteous apologist delusions you're holding onto.

[@tc8073]

I am a new “de-constructor” and have devoured hundreds of hours of content over the past 5 months, and this is in the top 5 podcasts I’ve heard to date. Unbelievably insightful and relatable. Excellent job by both of you.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh wow, thank you so much for that. I am really glad to hear its landing with you!

[@tc8073]

@@MindShift-Brandon keep up the good work, Brandon. Your channel has been instrumental in my deconstruction and carving out a new reality for me at 45 years old. This hit home so much. I almost said you’ve been a Godsend, lol. But you know what I mean! Amazing work you’re doing, I can’t say enough about it.

[@floccinaucinihilipilifications]

@@MindShift-Brandon Thank you Brandon for this excellent discussion

[@Groovinmegzz]

💯 agree 🎉

[@timbertome2443]

Something big that hit me when I was recently talking to a Christian presuppositionalist, was what they said while we were discussing God/religion. They said "you're an atheist - you have nothing I want. I have divine assurance, community, a relationship with God, I can know things for certain because God makes me know them, etc..." They were committed, and committed to, having their spiritual cake and eating it too, and my (seemingly stark and loveless) view of reality was the opposite of everything they wanted.

[@DanielDennett-l9n]

Scary person

[@9ja9ite]

How can I give this video a thousand likes? This was incredible.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it

[@Eyesopeningheartrealigning]

@@9ja9ite totally 💯 agree

[@jdnlaw1974]

I know everyone is different, but after leaving 35 years of Christianity, I’m so much happier, more giving, loving, much kinder, and my life is so much better dealing with truth and reality. No yoke is lighter than one removed.

[@26beegee]

I was a believer until about 60. Now almost 72 and more liberated than ever!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Love to hear it!

[@ancientflames]

I am the exact same before and after haha. Guess I never needed it much or it didn't effect me as deeply as it does some others.

[@hjb-1g8]

Was also evangelical believer till the age of 60. But it took 5 years to deconstruct. Was tough. Now I am free too

[@KerstinJ_0291]

A Sunday morning sermon with Britt AND Brandon? We are so lucky! 🎉

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Hey thanks!

[@JaunPark2222]

Brandon! You’re such a gentleman! So polite! So respectful! I love it so much!

[@piousmutilator4513]

This podcast episode was FANTASTIC, Brandon! Thank you 🙏

[@MindShift-Brandon]

My pleasure for sure!

[@soulrebelaz]

After listening to Britt, I've gained a lot of insight into my own deconstruction journey and how I handled it with my believing family. It's helped me realize that I need to approach them with more compassion and understanding, especially since I was once in their shoes. I'm also incredibly thankful for more female voices in this space-it's so refreshing and encouraging. Having Brandon add his comments was great too, as it kept the conversation balanced and allowed for deeper reflection on these topics from different angles.

[@Eyesopeningheartrealigning]

What an amazing conversation guys 😅 So thoughtful and shows the hard work 😓 but we need each other to establish support and community ❤

[@greg-op2jh]

So glad that we are having these conversations. Religion caused me so much trauma that leaving it was a gift. But i can see how others struggle with it. We have to figure out how to allow everyone to have their best life and be fulfilled. Edit: I definitely think we need more things like thrive conferences..i love the internet but our devices have definitely created a loneliness problem. Connecting online is not a substitute for human to human connection. I am guilty of this, dreading going places but when I do i end up having a great time. We have to form some type of community.

[@excultcarol5570]

This is one of the best videos I have ever seen, so nuanced and honest. Also, I used to journal when I was younger and after I saw your video on journaling, I bought several (for different purposes) and have started using them. I need to make it more regular but it's a start and I can already tell it is helpful to my life.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh wow. What an amazingly kind comment! And thrilled to hear about your journaling.

[@flaviaaraiza2415]

I love your answers too miss Britt. My entire life i have been living hell on earht especially when i lost my child two years ago. I couldn't stand my pastor and church family as well as biological family trying to pushed me to get over my child's passing. I tried hard but i couldn't so it has been two years since i changed my number and vanished from everyone. I rather deal with my pain on my own till... I left everything behind including everyone that knew me and my precious Joe. Today Oct 27 makes 2 years and two months to be exact since i last heard my child's voice and i am in tears as i write this. I just learned to live with a broken 💔 cuz i still have to live. 😢 you will be a great human to hang out with🙂

[@terencebooth8271]

I fully understand your pain. My 6 year old son drowned in 1980 and I still feel the longing for him. I also found the Christian platitudes to be awful and angering. About 6 months later I felt a darkness like living in a pit, but I had to keep working to support my wife and daughter. I also found a secular support group called “The compassionate Friends” that is for people who have lost children. I was an active participant for three or four years. I would encourage you to find a support group not related to any church. It can help you find your way through and beyond the grief process. I also found after a year or so that I liked the me that I had become better than me I was before the tragedy. I wish you well and I hope you find peace and acceptance over time.

[@26beegee]

I am a bereaved parent, too. You never get over it. My pastor/father thought I should just get over it. Believing in god does not short-circuit grief unless you don’t live in reality. I have always been a realist so I can’t do that and I don’t want to do that! My heart goes out to you. 💔

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So very sorry to hear of your loss. I truly cannot imagine

[@FoursWithin]

I can't imagine that loss. Dealing with psychological/emotional pain is always difficult, but it's definitely a clearer path forward without all the bullshtt and gaslighting from people who simply don't understand. Or can't stand people having overwhelming feelings. And honestly the average person doesn't seem capable of understanding things they haven't experienced , or even things they haven't experienced recently. Sometimes it's just best to steer clear of whatever well intentions they may have. And it sounds like you've figured that out. Good for you for doing what needed to be done to put space between yourself and the toxic "love".

[@greg-op2jh]

I am so sorry. Sending you so much love ❤

[@madelynayers3029]

I replaced my church time with sleeping in and self-care. I struggled waking up and forcing myself to be extroverted going to church every week! It truly feels like a day of rest since I’ve left religion. This video was great! The philosophical arguments are insightful. I personally feel more moral now than I was as a Christian. I see the harm religious institutions can cause. However, I have family members that I believe need Christianity in order to function and forgive themselves from things they have done in the past. I keep going back to my idea of “if you are not harming yourself or others, do what you want with your life.”

[@MasterSpade]

“Knowledge is preferable to Ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard Truth, than a reassuring Fable.” - Carl Sagan

[@mark.guitar]

The biggest thing for me at the moment is mourning for the Christian friends and family who have died over the last 3 decades. I remember sitting with my Mum as she died of cancer the day after I got back from honeymoon. Knowing that she was going to a place where we would be reunited was incredibly helpful. I spent Tuesday this week saying goodbye to her while going on a very long walk in the country with a large pack of tissues.

[@totonow6955]

Sending love Mark.

[@mark.guitar]

@@totonow6955 Appreciated

[@maggienewton8518]

we carry what they taught us, their stories funny and sad and for me there's a warmth that comes every time I see my kids quoting them or applying something they learned passed on from my parents through me to them. Sure, they are gone but their stories and experiences are passed on for generations, if we pay attention and I know my parents would think, good, my life meant something. Sorry for your pain, Mark.

[@Ephesians-yn8ux]

I hope there is some form of an afterlife, and she is at peace and happy.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So sorry, man! Yes. The reality is for sure a painful place to be

[@justynabogdanowicz7510]

I keep on watching you Brandon and I will definitely see what miss Britt is going to say on her own channel. The job you are both doing is incredible. As an ex-Pentecostal in a Catholic country, now an atheist, I rely only on interviews and podcasts like this one (and my own mind, of course). My Catholic friends (so called "cultural" Christians) don't understand the situation of a person who used to believe deeply and now doesn't, the person who is free, authentic and sensible, yet at the same time very often confused and lonely. They think I should just enjoy life but it's not so easy, when you are a neurotic (well-said, Britt:)) I needed the vocabulary for what I'm going through and you both gave me that.Thanks to both of you

[@rolandwatts3218]

What a wonderful, nuanced, compassionate, sensible attitude. Great interview Brandon. A beautiful , well thought through attitude Britt. On the issue of non believers having to put a lot of effort into finding that place of stability. Remember, religious people put a lot of effort into it - church, one to three times a week, daily devotions, etc, and etc. So to capture an equivalence, maybe non believers actually do need to do something similar when it comes to effort.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Great point! And thanks

[@michaelhenry1763]

Amazing, amazing podcast episode. Two things that really stuck with me: the conversation about death and the conversation about cultural Christianity. for years I just thought of heaven as a tool when I was at funerals for loved ones. I knew it was not real, but I thought it was a pleasant idea to think my different family members were meeting each other. Once the funeral was over, I would revert back to them no longer existing. But it was not until this year, I stopped doing that and thought about the non-existence. It gave me peace. When someone asked me, “ you do not believe in a soul?” I quipped, “ maybe this is not the best time for me to say.” I then proceeded to say that the loved one will no longer struggle or suffer because they will no longer exist. It is the same as before we were born. I hoped I gave peace to my relative. At least I know I have peace. The cultural Christianity bothers me. It’s really about intent. Do not get me wrong. I love to attend church services in beautiful churches or cathedrals. I love the Christmas season. When my son was a baby, I sang hymns to him everyday. I am going to see the Messiah twice this December. However, I think the cultural Christianity conversation is arising out of an Islamophobia and a conservative backlash to progressive values. I do not think there is any problem celebrating Christmas, or Easter. They are part of our culture. But, we cannot allow racism, fear, or xenophobia dictate our actions.

[@Rowan-q6g]

Well said. 🙂

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for your thoughts, Michael!

[@skylinefever]

If people don't want Islam either, fine. Japan and South Korea don't want it.

[@solomonessix6909]

When you ask the question “How much truth is good for the people to know?” makes me reflect on Plato’s Republic,chapter 2 where he talks about lying being reserved for the rulers, yet criminalized for the common man. Ruler at many different levels; from kings, to clergy, to parents introducing childhood folklore in the form of Tooth fairies and Santa Clause are all leveraging the “Noble Lie”. The lie are the shadows cast on the wall of “Plato’s Cave”. For instance Socrates cast a similar shadow for his disciples when fashioning the eternal heaven narrative to help them carry on without him. Plato refers to the lie as medicine.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Interesting comparison. Thanks for the info

[@9ja9ite]

Hey Britt, I’m subbing immediately after this conversation!

[@3wisewishes991]

This is such a meaningful conversation. I've been deconstructing since I was 67, and I'm 75 now. I find grounding in connecting to the Beatitudes and listening to Mystics in different religions along with teachers and authors who promote oneness. I still attend events that are meaningful to my family and friends periodically because my religion has an educational and health system that's been there for me from birth, and I appreciate the community aspect. I respect that others are still where I used to be.

[@tallred93]

This conversation was beautiful and needed. We NEED meaning. We need purpose. However you get that, as long as it results in LOVE, not separation, that is the most important thing. When I was a Christian, Thomas Jay Oord was a pivotal influence in my life. Britt Hartley, an atheist, validating the beautiful love that TJO lives out is amazing, and what we need most is to come together and love each other and seek truth in the best way that we can at this moment. As long as our world gets bigger, as long as we grow to include others, we can make positive change. Love requires no deity.

[@ambergraham2898]

Wow! I think this is my favorite all time video from Mindshift so far. I loved the humility and nuance y’all expressed throughout the podcast. I really was drawn to the part in your discussion about after deconversion there is a tendency to replace religion. I know that I still struggle with wanting human life to be somehow more than just this one shot. I loved how Britt mentioned using ChatGPT to interpret dreams. Shortly after I was turned on to ChatGPT I started doing just this and it has been really amazing the insights I have gained. Beautiful job and thank you!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So very kind and encouraging. Thank you!

[@dogsandyoga1743]

I don't like to leave multiple comments on the same vid, but I have to say. This has probably been the best conversation around this topic that I've ever heard. It was actually like two sides of my brain hashing out ideas that I've been wrestling with for a while now. Just a lot more articulate and thought out 😂. But I love the balance between his slightly more aggro energy, and her calming, tenderness. You guys could do 10 more of these and I'd be right here!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for that lovely feedback! So glad it resonated

[@jasonhighlander]

I just finished it this morning and I totally agree!!

[@mr.c2485]

@@jasonhighlander What was your takeaway? For me, it confirmed my lean towards a type of progressive nihilism. The fact that ours is the only species who considers such things, such as mortality, tells me that we’re either “special” or cursed, or both. I envy the other species freedom from such thoughts and speculation. Is it any wonder that everyone is chemically or psychologically dependent on something that dulls the pain and suffering??

[@jasonhighlander]

@@mr.c2485 that's a thoughtful take. To me, religion does have its positives if we can somehow avoid the many negatives. I agree with the guest that reinventing community and traditions would be a tough thing to do. Maybe a secular Christianity like Judaism is more feasible in the United States to begin with, but we would always have to contend with the baggage and bigotry contained in the Bible. It feels like humanity is at a crossroads today with an unclear path forward. When you have young kids it's a lot harder to think about. I'm going to dig into the resources mentioned in the video to see what my next step might be. Wishing you and everyone else the best of luck out there trying to find their way!

[@BluStarGalaxy]

In terms of the topics discussed I think this is your best podcast yet Brandon. Objective morality, ultimate justice, etc. Good to see you two covering the tough stuff.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It was very challenging for sure. Really got my own mind shifting

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@MindShift-Brandon The humility of you guys is also great. Admitting that there are downsides to losing religion and how we don’t have all the answers.

[@8thdayindependentfundament454]

This excellent

[@8thdayindependentfundament454]

​@MindShift-Brandon You both did great!! So much there to discuss 👍

[@apocketfulofprose]

I only about 40 minutes in, and I already feel impacted by this conversation. I commented a couple of weeks ago about the death of a family member and having to grapple in a new way with the thoughts of what happens after death. Your reply there and this conversation here are so helpful to me in this season of life where I feel incredibly unmoored and unsettled in what I believe. I am so grateful to have people like you to look to who are further along in this journey of questioning and seeking truth. Thank you.

[@Jcs57]

As a lifelong nonbeliever this is quite fascinating. I consider myself spiritual but have no beliefs in any magical concepts or principles. I just feel a deep connection to the universe and that makes me feel connected and happy.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for being here

[@Aleiza_49]

We have a connection with the universe, we're part of the universe. It just sounds like you're romanticizing that fact.

[@Jcs57]

@@Aleiza_49 You call it romanticizing I call it appreciation.

[@stevem83]

I absolutely love this conversation. This is exactly what society needs to be talking about!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear. Thank you!

[@andytyler6252]

my daughter is a lifelong atheist, and she sings in a church choir every Sunday. i never had a problem with her going to her grandparents church. she made an informed choice

[@ryanwright9067]

Britt and Brandon, I absolutely love this conversation. I have personally experienced the transformational power of conversations like these and that makes me excited for the future. If we can set aside our differences as atheists and religious people we can rally around what really does work for the well-being of ourselves, our planet and all people. Maybe the new idea can be something like "Mere Humanity", taking CS Lewis idea beyond specific religion.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Mere Humanity! how i love that. thanks for this lovely comment.

[@ecisme10]

Stunning conversation. This whole mess of religion needs to be talked about in these terms. Everything is laid out rationally, responsibly and with other peoples perspectives in mind. What is best for the group, the species we belong to? Great questions and great conversations.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

thank you so much! i am so glad to hear your take here.

[@skylinefever]

What's best for the group will probably get exploited by sociopathic oligarchs.

[@rachactually6884]

I’ve gotta say, I love her on tiktok and her voice is super asmr…she’ll help us all ❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I literally got tingles editing our vid ha!

[@flaviaaraiza2415]

At this point in my life i want nothing to do with any kind of religions. I just want to enjoy the rest of my years till i see my child again. I like my freedom. I dont want to give my powers to anyone or anything out there. Critical thinking is best. I do what makes sense to me not what makes sense to others, others dont feel my pain, my joys, my sadness, my cries or anything my soul ever experiences as i am still in this body. I enjoy my reunions with with my higher-powers/Spirits including my boy & family who is in the sprit -world thru meditations. We can live our best live doing what is right, helping and loving those in need including the ones with additions and mental illness not just those in the communities of religious beliefs. One thing i noticed when i was a christian is that church people only love and help those in their church communities... 😢 thanks Brandon and miss Brittany

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for sharing

[@Groovinmegzz]

This was such a powerful and thought-provoking interview. As someone who’s deeply immersed in exploring the emotional, psychological, and spiritual complexities of deconstruction-both personally and through my podcast Taste of Truth Tuesdays-this conversation resonated on so many levels. The idea that we might have to choose between truth and well-being truly shook me to my core. As a self-proclaimed truth seeker, it’s a question I’ve wrestled with but never framed so starkly. It’s a haunting but necessary thought experiment for anyone navigating the death of old beliefs and the uncertainty of what comes next. The breakdown of the ‘10 Things That Die with the Death of God’ felt particularly relevant. Isolation, tradition, community, and the afterlife were all things I struggled with while unlearning harmful beliefs and finding my way forward. The discussions on objective morality, ultimate justice, and truth itself hit so close to home as I continue examining what gives life meaning without rigid systems of control. Thank you for such a deep and nuanced exploration of these topics-it’s the kind of conversation that lingers long after it’s over.

[@alexandraparadela9548]

Yes, bring her back for more conversations, I loved it❤

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

Ever since I heard Britt use the phrase, "I am you and you are me", I've had a Pink Floyd tune in my head with these lyrics.. "… Strangers passing in the street By chance, two separate glances meet And I am you and what I see is me And do I take you by the hand And lead you through the land And help me understand the best I can?"

[@Dovahkiin0117]

My mind went Beatles with I am the walrus Opening line is I am he as you are he, as you are me and we are all together

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

@@Dovahkiin0117 😂👍🏼🎸

[@Critical_Explorer-vw5hy]

What an insightful conversation! Thanks, Brandon for this! I'll subscribe to her channel.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad to hear it!

[@Eyesopeningheartrealigning]

@@Critical_Explorer-vw5hy yes i subscribed as soon as the conversation ended 🥳🤩

[@subarashiiai16]

It was really validating and somewhat emotional for me to listen to this conversation. I had to take a very similar journey over the past decade and really evaluate my life and my beliefs, and there was a long stretch where I really struggled. I clung to my academic studies and my "rationality" as a way to have some structure in my life instead of religion, and that mostly made me and those around me miserable. it wasn't until I really started healing that I could allow for any sort of spiritual belief in my life because for so long spirituality was an all or nothing game.

[@starlingswallow]

"We are not as broken as the Christian religion has told us we are" ❤❤❤ The "breaking" for me, personally, is the breaking off of religious layers that have covered up my light and individuality. Maybe you could say it's a breaking OPEN. Religion has tried to squeeze out each persons autonomy and make them into cookie cutter _followers._ I can see now that this process/programming has really benefitted all religions. But what we forget is that our spiritual journey is very individual and PERSONAL. I don't really think or believe it was ever supposed to be what it is today 😢 Thank you for this show. Eye opening, healing, surprising, delightful, and I just LOVE all the points you both made here~ even if I didn't agree with every single one. Bravo, you two! ❤

[@starlingswallow]

Crazy parallel is that I was in an abusive marriage to a "Christian" narcissist for 14 years and the tactics used was very similar to Christian religion. Gaslighting, word salad, many contradictions, neglect, minimizing, glossing over, spiritual abuse to force conforming, financial abuse, etc. Getting out of that marriage was the beginning of my awakening and deconstruction journey. Wild....

[@pdrivest57]

Hi Britt. I've been watching your videos now for a couple weeks and am grateful that I found you. I only recently left the church and faith in god and have been working through the ramifications of that deconstruction. I should say, recently admitted to myself that I no longer believed, and for integrity sake, couldn't see continuing church just for some social connection. Your videos and helped give my thoughts context and direction. I appreciate your efforts in presenting these thoughtful talks.

[@9ja9ite]

I just have to stop here at 17 min and say thank you for having this conversation and bringing up these topics. So far at this point into it I feel like this was made just for me. I am one of those people who deconstructed and feel like I’m in a perpetual state of existential crisis. I keep digging for more and more truth hoping if I dig deep enough I’ll come out the other side with some new meaning to hold onto. Find some anchor to keep me from drifting off into void of meaninglessness and depression. Hardly anyone talks about this but maybe some people can deconstruct and then just go about their day but for me it’s been absolutely torturous.

[@maggienewton8518]

best to you. Looking for truth, I think is the answer to ease the torture. Living things cling to life and we have the added advantage of experiencing wonder, conscious connections, expressing beauty through art so these skills linked to will to live fueled by eyes avidly open to seeing what's true...good pathway to finding reality based reasons to live in your life.

[@totonow6955]

I can so relate. Richard Boothby speakubg about his book Embracing the Void is meaningful for me.

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

I may not have a similar experience as you, but this type of feeling hit me the same right at 17 minutes in! You're not alone.

[@JoBo301]

You have to accept as an atheist that ultimately no-one's life actually matters and everyone will be destroyed forever.

[@Jcs57]

@@JoBo301 No you don’t that is a religious presumption founded off the premise that dying and moving on to a different life is the only thing that has value or meaning.

[@Jon45678]

Britt is a walking encyclopedia of de-construction wisdom 💥 *BAM* I can see why Brandon loved this interview. Another awesome Mindshift video that is so content-rich it will require multiple viewings 👍🏻

[@annemariemintz907]

I’m happy to have a new way to think about prayer . I was leaning towards that way of thinking ( it’s good for the brain and seeking your higher self ) already, but it’s a relief to know my thoughts are confirmed. I always LOVED praying , but I kind of lost my desire for it during my deconversion process feeling like what’s the point, you know. It indeed makes me feel super connected within and allows me to process my emotions better . I’ll take this as my sign to start doing it daily once again. I loved everything about this conversation. Very, very insightful.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you!

[@annemariemintz907]

@@MindShift-Brandon You’re very welcome Brandon. Please never stop telling the truth. Like you, my core value is truth above all. It was when I went to school to study astrophysics that really opened my eyes. I love and appreciate you for your commitment and passion for this subject . Please never change . 🫶🏾

[@TerraStory225MYA]

@@MindShift-Brandon Honestly disappointed that you would be encouraging people to pray. I have long loved your content, but this was a biiiiig swing and a miss!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

This commenter is clearly talking about prayer within the context of what Britt and i covered. I never advocated praying to a god as of course i believe no god is there. Its a way for self talk like meditation or journaling. Im not getting up on lingo

[@FoursWithin]

​@@TerraStory225MYA Where does Brandon encourage people to pray ? I'm only halfway so maybe I haven't gotten there yet . Edit-- finished watching and your comment is just making assumptions. Brandon doesn't encourage prayer in this video.

[@Just_a_Servant]

Absolutely amazing conversation and podcast thank you so much. This is the type of conversation and podcast I will play and listen to it over and over, so rich and real thank you both so much.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear that. Thanks you!

[@terencebooth8271]

Brandon, this is one of best conversations. I am a long-time atheist/agnostic, and this discussion gave me a lot to consider.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you!

[@George.B.Walker]

I really admire the way you can hear people and be so accepting and welcoming and kind. She has such a different theology and a different psychological way of viewing things and dealing with life’s challenges compared to you, but you meet people with kindness, compassion, and always try to find common ground and have a constructive discussion. You continue to prove that we don’t need holy books to be good people. We just have to do our best and keep growing 👍

[@MindShift-Brandon]

this was so encouraging. thanks for taking the time to comment it.

[@JaunPark2222]

Wonderful discussion -beginning to end!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you dearly

[@JaunPark2222]

@@MindShift-Brandon❤

[@Will67Davis-ti7le]

This is a brilliant woman,I can't wait to get her book.

[@TalonWren]

This was amazing. Please more of this.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad you enjoyed. Thanks!

[@jaimephair8037]

Two of my absolute favorite people in the post-religious sphere! Thank you both for your wisdom and insights!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you very much for that!

[@DavidRichardson153]

I have had a discussion similar to the one between Alex O'Connor and Sam Harris. When it came to the topic of religion - the social/communal organizing around it, that is - being more beneficial than truth, I asked, "Organized around what?" That specific question, depending on how it is phrased and then explored, can be quite revealing and likely in ways you may wish it wasn't (and I'm never going to claim that I'm immune to this sense or that I'm always in the right for bringing it up). That is something that I have to grant religion over secularism, that religion has a much easier job of gathering people together around something, whether it be raising funds for someone's medical treatment, rebuilding a home, or even just getting up in the morning. I'd be lying if I claimed that religion tends to outclass secularism in this kind of thing. That said, there is a lot about it that when examined more closely can (and for me, did) raise the question on if religion is organizing around the best things. And sorry if this is going to sound political - and I'm not going to give the "everything is political" response - but actions taken on your part showcase your held politics and more often than not, in ways that run antithetical to whatever you claim (and I am hardly an exception to this - I still run into this on some issues). To keep this from getting too long, let's stick to the examples I gave, and I'll be sticking with the US because, well, that is what I and most of this channel are most familiar with. Sure, funds for medical treatment helps the specific person it is for, but what if this need for funds is coming from everyone? Why is there (seemingly) hardly any effort in trying to reduce the costs needed for everyone? Set aside whether or not such efforts pan out and just focus on the attempt. Why is this often not done at all, both on the personal and the communal/social level? Instead, what we see from both of these levels, in between these raising of funds for payment, is empowering people who not only allow this requirement of treatment payments to exist, but actively work to increase the required payments. One has to ask: what is the point of the raising of funds then, especially if they will need more after this specific event? This is not to argue that those who need the funds shouldn't have them, but why is it that gathering is (often) only for these people in (likely) immediate need? Yes, there will always be times of immediate need, but that does not mean that nothing could be done to reduce the frequency or severity of these times. In fairness, this is hardly exclusive to religion, and you will find examples of religion - or at least specific groups within a religion - actually make these kinds of efforts, but the silence you hear more often from religion than you do from secularism, the willful ignorance if not active hostility against it (I grew up in Texas and in a community where this active hostility is encouraged - and yes, they are fully MAGA, I have to give that disclaimer), is quite deafening. The same thing is often seen over rebuilding a home. What caused it to happen in the first place? Yes, there will always be times when it is either unavoidable or is from personal neglect. However, when you see whole swaths of spaces, whole communities, just get effectively wiped off the map because of a storm or a flood or a catastrophic infrastructure failure, you have to ask: why did it happen? Were there factors similar to those behind the Jonestown flood of 1889? Were there any sort of major changes that occurred that, if not made, would have lessened the severity? Which, if any, of these changes were necessary and why? Even if you limit it to just one home, all of these questions still need to be asked - maybe not before help is provided, sure, but they still need to be asked. How many religious groups do you see trying to get down to the root causes? It does not matter if your response to this is "I'm religious, and I care about getting to the bottom of these things." Yes, it is good that you care, more so if you actually do put in any actual effort - I don't know where I head this from, but it stuck with me: "Talk is so cheap that it is worthless, and preaching is even more so because at least talking includes someone else who is willing to participate" - but can you say the same for your group, your community, religious or not? In fairness, secularism does not have a distinct advantage over religion on this front. After all, the groups and organizations that actually do try to get to the bottom of these problems and resolve them do not give a damn about whether or not you or they themselves are religious or secular. However, religion does not have an advantage on this front either, because like with the previous example, you will often find this (hopefully genuine) charity at the front and active hostility behind the scenes. Can you see how disingenuous and fake this makes religion look? And to wrap with the final example, of just getting up in the morning, you still have to ask: why? Not necessarily "why bother getting up?" (though that is still a legitimate question), but "why bother going to meet up with these people that I would probably otherwise want absolutely nothing to do with?" Every group, religious or not, has some number of people that you want absolutely nothing to do with but still do because of an obligation. Sure, obligations can be handy, even good, to have, but you still need to ask: to who, how, and why? This is where things like Brandon's nature trips really highlight that there may be better things/ways than, how one modern philosopher with a dark sense of humor put it, gathering in a special building once week to sing songs as you compare clothing. In fairness, this is not exclusive to religion, but it is regarding religion that it is arguably the most obvious. This sort of thing is not necessarily going to bring someone out of whatever their religion is. It may often be involved in the deconversion process, but deconversion does not always result - and that is okay. If you want to believe in something, even if it is what I will mock as an imaginary temperamental sky wizard daddy, then have at it, but if that belief comes with a call to action (charitable action, preferably) and you do not act on your own call, well, then you and I (and undoubtedly many others, even those who may share in your belief) are going to have a problem with you and likely a big one at that. After all, talk is so cheap that it is worthless, and preaching is even more so because at least talking includes someone else who is willing to participate.

[@Raenafyn]

I have been an ex-Christian for over a decade, but I've recently learned about the value of church for the purpose of community. I never really felt attached to the churches I went to, so I didn't have the problem of "losing community" when I deconverted - but I largely didn't feel a sense of *any* community. I didn't think I really needed a lot of people in my life because I'm an introvert (and maybe social awkwardness), but since the Pandemic, my social anxiety got worse and it magnified my already-existing problems of not being able to trust people. While working on my mental health, I came to the conclusion that being part of a community might be more necessary than I first thought, and considered more the idea that humans are a social species who came to be where they are now *because* they relied on each other and their collective. It's definitely frustrating that there aren't typically designated spaces for people who aren't religious, but I had interest in a Unitarian Universalist church in a nearby larger city, and though Unitarian Universalism has roots in Christianity, they made a point in saying they accepted people of all faiths and that there was a lot of focus on studying spirituality and stuff together, letting people come to their own conclusions about their own personal faith. It sort of felt like a kind of "neutral ground" that might interest me and also offer the opportunity for community. And if not, maybe I can look for the nearest Satanic Temple instead lol.

[@montanahelton1272]

This is a very satisfying and interesting conversation. I absolutely love Britt, she has helped me grow so much ❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@TheRealShrike]

Excellent, excellent, excellent. This is one of your best shows. Cuts right to the heart of the matter. Your questions and Britt's answers reflect exactly what I and presumably many others are going through.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

43:00 "Intention to change" I see as "consciously aware" and I agree that if you're not focused on change it's easier to fall into old ways of thinking and behaving..much like stopping an addiction and filling your life with healthier activities. "Nothing changes if nothing changes " is a saying from my past. I've found over the last few years how exhausting it can feel at times to continually being aware of attempting change in a certain direction, but after a while you start to realize that you're not"thinking " about it so much but doing it. That's what keeps me optimistic, when I'm able to look back at the growth, as little as it may seem. The best reward is when others notice the change, too. Probably more so than yourself.

[@maggienewton8518]

💯

[@karlu8553]

Thank you both. Brandon, i've been a fan of your channel since its inception. I first found you i'm pretty sure, via booktok before you started mindshift. I'm impressed by and really appreciate your willingness to not stay stuck in one phase of deconstruction and atheism, but to continue to learn and grow. I've been on a similar arc in my own journey post faith. This conversation is yet another great example of someone who deconstructed bc of being open minded and seeking what's true, continuing to stay open and willing to refine and revise and even change beliefs on the backside of deconstruction instead of just entrenching into a new dogmatism. I've followed Britt for at least a couple years on tiktok and have found her content extremely helpful, at times challenging, and thought provoking. So glad to see two of my favorite creators have this conversation. Thanks again.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh wow. Thanks so much for the long term viewership!

[@Aleiza_49]

This is honestly a very interesting conversation, and Britt is cool. I like this idea, wholesale replacement of religion....secular answers to anything religion could offer and making it completely obsolete.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much, appreciate that!

[@jaclynlevy5644]

I recently found Britt through a FB group called "Recovering ExChristians" and I've been hooked ever since. In fact, in a recent video of yours I heard you say something I heard Britt say first and was wondering if you were also watching her videos! I feel like your personalities mesh so well in this exchange and I feel like I got to witness Britt minister to you in a way that opened your heart and mind even further which is so cool. Even though this was 2 hours, I'll probably watch again and then this time take notes. I put Sasha Sagan's book on hold at the library along with "Wild Mystics." Just viewing the book cover of Wild Mystics made me emotional, I can't wait to read it! Great resources, thank you both.

[@rochelebierhalspereira7106]

Brit is just the most beautiful human being, inside and out❤! Her videos on the tok helped me through the final phase of my deconversion. And it is almost a bit jarring to see Brandon's beautiful smile since in most of his videos he is so serious and more than justifiably angry because of the topic. ABSOLUTELY loved this episode. Thanks, guys!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Well thank you

[@Rhewin]

An amazing conversation with so much nuance. There are no easy answers. I’ve become more and more focused on figuring out how we return to a functioning society without all having to have the same beliefs.

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

Im only 17 minutes into this and I KNOW I'm going to have to listen to this again...heavy.,. fantastic conversation so far!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks man, i really loved this one. She had so much insight

[@8thdayindependentfundament454]

Deep and very considerate conversation

[@merelenewarner6742]

It's so painful though...

[@tracysimon7972]

I think this may be one of my favorite videos this far. The conversation between the 2 of you is amazing and you both touched on points that i have felt. Thank you for your channel ❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

thats so kind. really appreciate you watching!

[@Edgarbopp]

For myself, believing true things and disbelieving false things is an end unto itself. I don’t need to believe it will improve my wellbeing.

[@djm1256]

Amazing podcast session! Britt is wonderful, such a great teacher. And, of course, you are always great. Thank you both!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that!

[@Blue-5]

Im not against spirituality or theism or whatev But when I read "the future of religion" I was like : "Wait this has a future ? Oh God , please no more of this" That God is something I'm never gonna follow again

[@abiliv-lf9tz]

Ikr there's so much religious harm It jus makes me wanna cry sometimes 😭

[@kenhoover1639]

I just wanted to follow up on my previous comment about this video. I sat down and basically forced myself to watch the video in its entirety and I am glad that I did. One of the things that I like about the video is the discussion about facing death and how that can lead us to see us be more appreciative of the life that we have. Finally, a recurring theme in this video is that it is harder to replace some of the things that religion can provide us as we transition into a more secular society, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find those things outside of organized religion.

[@indi_prime]

Societies have *been* secularising for over a century at this point, increasingly since the 'enlightenment', I would posit this is a consequence of more people existing in human made environments rather than exposed directly to nature, with all the mystery inherent to it, forgetting that just as nature goes through cycles of birth, life, death and rebirth societies do also and this process occurs atop a substrate.

[@vulpixelful]

54:04 This is why even as a "just" a non-theist, as a black non-believer I still encourage every black atheist creator I find on here. The black church has been a focus of the civil rights movement and community service in the past, but we do _not_ need it anymore. There are plenty of secular ways that the black community can be uplifted, we don't need the message that we can't do anything without god. At the same time, I'm not out here forcing my mom to deconvert, she has been indoctrinated with the idea that she can only fail without a god belief. She still struggles with the idea of hell, and I consider it a testament to her character that she can't exactly swallow that pill whole...

[@SunflowerLife1]

Loved listening to this discussion. Britt was a great choice to have on. 🌻

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@kingmarx810]

Moral laws for the group are decided by consensus. Even with religion as our grounding. Governments have applied morals from the dogma of their beliefs. But, many governments craft laws by consensus of the ruling class when the religion has not kept up with how our morals have shifted and will continue to shift. This was such a a wonderful discussion from beginning to the end some very interesting perspectives I will consider as go forward as a husband, father, man and human.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much!

[@JediMediator]

I don't think anything has challenged me or opened my eyes more since leaving Christianity than this conversation. Definitely going to keep Britt on my radar. Thanks!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to encourage more thinking! thanks for being here for this one

[@richbev91]

This conversation (among others) is helping me understand, and make sense of the recent behavior of the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Richard Dawkins, Jordan Peterson, and others who seem to espouse Christianity, without declaring an actual belief in a deity, or the typical "sinners prayer", etc. I also understand that with the decline of Christianity, the void that provides opportunity for Islam as a grave threat, because of its inherent fundamentalist nature, and far more repressive, victimization of the out-group than (at least main-line) Christianity. I just wish people around the world could realize that all the good (and bad) has (as the Wizard of Oz told the seekers) always been within us all the time. We don't need a God for morality, we only need concern for each other's best interests, and less selfishness, and tribalism.

[@deb6252]

What an absolutely breathtakingly beautiful conversation. Thank you both.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear it. Thank you!

[@kettei7743]

This seems like a really interesting guest, really looking forward to it

[@Embrace.The.Absurd]

For a little over the past two years, I have learned so much from yourself and various other channels, with regards to deconstructing biblical doctrine and/or the religion of Christianity. However, I realized in the last 6 months or so, the importance (for me) to be able to move past deconstructing and/or the continuous exposure of the topic of Christianity, the studying of the biblical text and doctrine therein, and etc., (I found that I was learning a great deal and benefiting therein, but at the same time, felt like I was still not letting go of my former faith); and move onto learning how to create a life after religion and experiencing the void. Then one day (in recent weeks) I discovered Britt and have been able to better understand how to move forward and rebuild my life; and how to use certain tools to better navigate myself through the void. Then last night, I see in my feed, my two favorite channels who have had the most impact upon my life; and they have found one another! This was the most impactful and important interview I’ve experienced thus far from either of you. The way you both carried the conversation and addressed so many varied topics was perfectly executed. Thank you Brandon for recognizing the importance of what Britt has to share and for interviewing her. PS: Your insight and perspectives offered throughout this entire interview were amazing! You are such a treasure Brandon; and thank you for helping me in a way that no other could through your work.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So very kind. Thanks for such an amazing thoughtful comment!

[@kathrynyoung3362]

Really interesting conversation. I am most intrigued by the concept of getting close to death in order to conquer our terror of it. So many great ideas and very interesting.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much!

[@luvbuggins]

This conversation was brilliant! I will definitely be watching it again.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Hey thanks so much!

[@Nita-b1s]

Thank you for this interview.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate you watching!

[@mayito8531]

I’m affected the same way by the Gabriel Herandez case. I still can’t see it in the Netflix feed

[@sarahshannon9561]

I’ve been appreciating Britt’s insights on the Tok for a while. I’m thrilled that y’all have connected!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank ya much!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Morning all! So excited to share this one. Each of the 10 topics was more fascinating than the last so id encourage you all to stick around on this one. Thanks for being here!

[@maggienewton8518]

good morning!

[@TonyLambregts]

Morning. I really enjoy these podcasts. Thank you.

[@duediligence8888]

Love Brit, love this series. Thank you!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@maggienewton8518mornin!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@TonyLambregtsthanks, Tony!

[@dwkimble]

A fantastic conversation. I am so thankful that you hosted this discussion and I appreciate your down to earth sharing of your own experiences. I definitely want to read this. Thank you for having such variety on your YT channel.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks!

[@asmrharmony412]

I was raised Christian but I stopped believing in my 20s and now I'm a pagan. I think deconstructing is still very useful to me because Christianity gets so deep into how you think about everything. I'm not sure I believe if my religion or Gods are real, but I do believe having a religion is good for me and I use it as a mental health treatment along with meds and therapy of course! So it's cool to find someone else who believes religion is good for us, even if it's not true. I see it as an easy way to take advantage of the placebo affect. Praying makes me feel better so why not do it.

[@darbymori350]

Wow, what a conversation and guest! Both of you have given me even more to ponder in my atheist journey. Thank you. I'd like to add, in relation to your conversation on prayer, that I use journaling to replace prayer. I set aside 15 min most days and I do a free-form style unless a particular struggle has come up that day that I need to get out onto paper. I actually feel better after journaling than I ever did praying: maybe because journaling can sometimes lead to personal action, instead of waiting on divine revelation or nebulous hope. Thank you again for this channel and your thoughts provoking conversations.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for this!

[@8thdayindependentfundament454]

Human well being is my Busine$$. We can all as humans agree. Interesting conversation. So much more for us to consider

[@ahsokaventriss3268]

Wow. This was an excellent podcast! So much to think about, and journal about later today.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Love to hear it. Thanks!

[@DooHKang]

As a Korean American who grew up under the influence of Buddhism and Confucianism, I think it is possible to have morality without religious faith.

[@FoursWithin]

It clearly is. Just as it's clearly possible to be involved in religion and live an immortal life.

[@embrediciembre]

Yay! I have watched all of Britt's KZbin videos and am awaiting the next! Also am halfway through her book. Her "tools" have been so helpful to me over the past month.

[@jengenx7729]

Me too! I’m also reading her book, so helpful and insightful!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to hear it!

[@charlesclaridy8646]

This is so timely considering that there are people who have self appointed themselves to decide what the universal state religion will be which will prove to be a disaster and excuse for the persecution of those who refuse to embrace it. This is the discussion we need to have. I have come to believe in a Creator (A Benevolent Intelligent Source) , however Yahweh does not qualify as benevolent, to say the least. These videos have been very helpful in clarifying some of the confusion I once had regarding the contradiction in the bible. I am looking forward to hearing more from Britt and future Mindshift videos. One thing you mentioned that really is so contradictory is how you are not allowed to participate in the bible study held by your son's coaches. There is no reason that you should not be able to attend. Since deconstructing the contradictions in the bible I still participate in family events though one is a minister. I am still there as he prays before meals and such. I just quietly attend. II have seen the Christian Occultist Alienation Mentality before and as a Christian, I found it malevolently contrary to the teachings of outreach which is one of the reasons I distanced myself from church. Perhaps we should start Secular Community Outreach where all regardless of religion or not can associate without specific titles for any specific cause other than human fellowship. Maybe there are some . I may have missed it. Everyone have a Great Week!

[@darbymori350]

As a coach, he would have to lead bible studies or prayers for the team. I think that is the struggle.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

@@darbymori350correct yes. I choose not to coach because i simply cant be that hypocritical and as a christian sports organization, thats how they choose to do it

[@charlesclaridy8646]

@@MindShift-Brandon Well, They are missing out on a great coach, I bet

[@mangarox134]

One of the first questions I asked before deconversion was “Is this helpful”.. this video really confirmed thoughts I’ve had and added it to them.

[@redraven_the]

I am and will always be on the side of truth. If we are able to finally confront truth, we will find a new, better way to wellbeing. I am sure of it. I loved this podcast so, so much. Thank you. The point about "prayer" seems to me like something though, just ex-believers might be able to understand the struggle with. I - for the life of me - cannot get myself to understand that need.

[@BeccaYoley]

Yes!

[@maggienewton8518]

yes!!! How can we solve problems if our solutions avoid truth? How can any joy be real if built on self-deception? Might feel real but it's still a drug. I don't even want anyone to take away my chance and right to confront and overcome my pain.

[@ancientflames]

A certain amount of fantasy is needed. Otherwise, we would only think of what is, not what can be. Technology in and of itself is an attempt to alter what is true or possible.

[@maggienewton8518]

@@ancientflames with respect, I disagree. Thinking of what can be, without fantasy, took us to the moon, led people to create vaccines, discover cures, produce great works of art, figure out human psychology and so much more. Technology does not alter what is, it expands on it by using its elements. We can use imagination without fantasy.

[@BeccaYoley]

@@ancientflames Fantasy is different from a lie though, if it's not conflated with reality.

[@JimmyTuxTv]

What a great guest and conversation, this is a daunting task and you both deserve credit for consolidating the ideas for the direction humanity needs to go to grow.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Hey thanks so much, Jimmy!

[@rochelebierhalspereira7106]

It is so wild how I had actually deconstructed most of my beliefs while still a devout Christian, which meant that actually admitting I no longer believed felt like a huge relief from the cognitive dissonance necessary to remain a Christian after seeing the reality of the bible and god. I already didn't believe in prayer, or on intervention by god or even that there was cosmic justice to validate suffering and abusive. The cult was so extreme and the people so abhorrent that I experienced nothing but relief and freedom at getting free - I grew up in total isolation because we were not allowed to engage with secular people and I couldn't stand any of the believers😅, so instead of losing community and tradition I was delivered from the worst people doing the worst things and teaching the most horrible doctrines ever. I'm sorry, though, for those who had to lose so much.

[@SentimentalApe]

One thing that I started doing is recording myself with a Voice Memo app. I originally started doing it just so that I could more easily remember thoughts and feelings that I was experiencing, but I have come to realize that it allows me to understand things I could only understand by speaking out loud. So, not only does it help me remember parts of my life and ideas, but it helps me more fully engage with and understand the experiences of my life.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for sharing. love that!

[@van-hieuvo8208]

Britt talks about materialism as if it was a bad thing. Presents can help build characters and core memories. Like Brandon says, the point of traditions is not about "transcendence", as if little children cared about that, the point is a sense of community, where you hang out, sing songs, eat food, gift each other. Even materialistic presents like say a video game console, a color-by-number book, a set of art supplies, etc., can help foster curiosity, artistry, passion, creativity, etc. in children. "Transcendence" is too vague and weak of an excuse to justify the religious dogma infused in holidays and customs. Speaking as an atheist growing up in a largely secular non-christian culture, I can say this with 100% certainty: we don't need to know why we celebrate holidays to have a good time. If it's part of your culture that's harmless, not doctrinal, and beautiful even, celebrate on! Why burden yourself with "transcendence", whatever that means?

[@maggienewton8518]

Tradition helps us measure time, get a sense of continuity and our place in it, feel connected to others, find commonality. I'm for it as long as we pause now and then to examine what's behind it and assure ourselves that we aren't carrying forth some outdated form that carries harm.

[@FoursWithin]

Part of the rap against materialism that I find valuable is the very real issues concerning overconsumption, technological distraction, and addiction to shopping. We live in a world of finite material and our trail of overconsumption is having clear and dire consequences.

[@van-hieuvo8208]

@@FoursWithin Consumerism and overconsumption is already happening whether holidays like Christmas happen or not. The occurrence of those holidays has no bearing on that, nothing short of forcing everybody else to convert and experience "transcendence."

[@van-hieuvo8208]

@@maggienewton8518 Yes, and I have celebrated traditions that even I didn't know much about. It's us going back to our parents' house and prepare some offerings to dead relatives. We ain't no christians, no jews, no muslims, we don't pray to any god, we pray only to our dead relatives. I personally don't take part in such superstitious activities, but the lack of doctrinal thought and oppressive theological baggage behind these traditions gives me comfort that they won't do any harm, something you cannot say about any of the abrahamic religions. You don't even have to imagine any time some christian freaks whine about not being able to say Merry christmas any more!

[@FoursWithin]

@@van-hieuvo8208 I am a materialist in the sense that I value the preciousness of it. Just as I am an atheist who greatly values the one life ,the only life I see we are afforded. The intertwining of Christmas into the ways of capitalism is a relatively recent conjunction at the scale it has become. And it is presently one of the main engines of western economics. One myth has been used to create another. And in that scenario unfortunately now guilt is spread from religion to secularism to spread consumerism. And so those who cannot truly afford Christmas gifts ( the lower class is a world majority) force themselves to adhere to pressures so they do not appear to be scrooge like party poopers who are perceived as unloving or ungiving. The result is deeper debt from buying things which all to often , according to research, isn't barely used if at all before it ends up in the storage or the garbage. This is a part of a much bigger picture involving unobserved & unconcious motivations driving humanity to succumb to unnecessary forcess put in place by "cultural traditions". If nonbelievers trry to understand the way we value and hold to the traditions we personally value just as religious people hold to their traditions no matter the consequences. There is much more going on below the surface. It is not an easy thing to face or resolve. No one wants to admit the things we love and treasure are also some of the things driving us on the path toward our own destruction. Even as I write these words I do not want to look at where the evidence points. Butif we don't face it head on we will be as blind as believers seem to us wasting their one life while we steal the future for our own descendents. Sorry I know this is truly a difficult dilemma I'm speaking of.