Miniminuteman is wrong about pyramids & slavery

[@veritasetcaritas]

Here are my answers to commonly asked questions. 1. Why did you call Milo an amateur archaeologist, when he has a degree in archaeology? Milo is qualified, but doesn't hold a professional archaeological position; it's not his "profession". In one of his videos he says he even feels ambivalent about calling himself an archaeologist at all, since he doesn't do practical archaeology or engage in formal archaeological analysis or write papers or attend conferences and symposia. Similarly, I have a degree in classics but I wouldn't call myself a professional classicist, since it's not my profession and I don't engage in it at a practical scholarly level. 2. By your definition, isn't military conscription slavery? Military conscription can be slavery, if it meets ALL the criteria I listed. However, modern military conscription typically does not. * There are legal exemptions for service * Soldiers aren't locked up in a barracks guarded by soldiers when they aren't fighting * There are several legal ways for soldiers to leave military service even after conscription * Soldiers are legally granted leave * It is illegal to subject soldiers to arbitrary punishment However, so-called "penal battalions", consisting of prisoners who are taken from jail and conscripted into the army, often lack these rights and protections, and historically have been treated as slave labor. If conscripts are treated in this way despite legal protections, and those legal protections are not applied, then yes the conscripts are being treated like slaves. 3. How is labor in lieu of taxation a kind of slavery? How is taxation different to corvee labor slavery? I didn't argue labor in lieu of taxation is by itself a defining feature of slavery; all the other criteria must be fulfilled also. But when modern citizens are taxed: * Their taxes don't simply go towards building private monuments for politicians, they are used for essential infrastructure and services, from roads and bridges, to public parks and public buildings, utilities such as communication networks, and energy services; whether you use these services or not, that's what the money is spent on * If they avoid their taxes they are fined, and may be punished with prison, but they cannot be punished arbitrarily, or enslaved permanently, and if they don't pay their taxes their family aren't forced to pay them instead or enslaved permanently as punishment * They aren't spending their time locked up in a compound guarded by soldiers until they pay their taxes 4. Isn't jury duty a form of slavery by your definition? There are legal exemptions for jury duty, you're not thrown into prison for refusing, your family members aren't forced to replace you or enslaved, and you're not subjected to arbitrary punishment by soldiers who are guarding you in a prison compound. 5. The 13th Amendment only legalizes forced labor/involuntary servitude, not slavery. US courts have historically treated slavery and involuntary servitude in the 13th Amendment as synonymous, not differentiated, and no court ruling formally treated them as distinct from each other. As a result, this is still a current interpretation. blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2021/06/convict-leasing-system/ action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-labor-prisons www.freedomunited.org/advocate/amendthe13th/ www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/24/us-prison-labor-workers-slavery-13th-amendment-constitution www.naacpldf.org/13th-amendment-emancipation/ See in particular this paper, which defines it specifically as "prison slavery". www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/slaves-state A Supreme Court ruling in 1871 defined prisoners as slaves of the state. “He has, as a consequence of his crime, not only forfeited his liberty, but all his personal rights except those which the law in its humanity accords to him. He is for the time being the slave of the state.” Ruffin v. Commonwealth, 62 Va. 790, 796 (1871). That is the historic understanding of that amendment. This was not re-interpreted until the late twentieth century. That re-interpretation was made specifically because nearly a century prisoners WERE defined as slaves with regard to the 13th Amendment. But more than that, there are still states in the US which justify prison slavery under the 13th Amendment, appealing to the historic interpretation.

[@martinhg98]

In response to anser 2 soldiers in moast armies cant leve whenever thay want even out of combat. It can still be desertion

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@martinhg98 it's not about being able to leave whenever you want, it's about the extent to which your liberty is restricted. Soldiers in virtually every army have the right to periodic leave from military service.

[@Laroac]

@@veritasetcaritas What about serfs.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@Laroac they were subject to arbitrary punishment, but they didn't spend their days locked up in a labor camp guarded by soldiers when they weren't working, they had freedom of movement, and they were able to leave the service of the lord who owned the land on which they lived.

[@totallytubular618]

@@veritasetcaritas You absolutely CAN be imprisoned for refusing jury duty, that's called contempt of court

[@miniminuteman773]

Awesome video and thank you for bringing your research and expertise to this topic and making it available for our viewers. I will definitely be referring to this next time the pyramids come up. Keep up the good work 💪

[@Berrymint268]

I knew you were here.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you so much Milo, I really appreciate that and I'm so glad you enjoyed it!

[@Crazael]

See this? This is how an actual scientist responds to criticism.

[@fredericksmith7942]

You are a genuine class act. The fact that you are so open about your mistakes is so refreshing.

[@Celestial_Reach]

This is why we love you so much. Your passion for the subject, and humility as you go about it great. It's even more amazing that you can do so with the attitude you have, that's just the cherry on top

[@thomaseriksen6885]

Who among us hasn't been wrong about pyramids and slavery on occasion?

[@alanpennie8013]

The pyramids were built in a very early and badly documented period of Egyptian history so I don't think this is a dispute that is likely to be resolved. Personally I would invoke Hegel's ghost to assert that in those days there were no *slaves* because there were no *free people*. If everyone is a *bonded worker* then the only difference is in rations.

[@herobrinesblog]

AMONG US!

[@fruitylerlups530]

​​@@alanpennie8013to expand which so often needs to be done with hegel, the norms of labor relations in those periods would not be percieved as particularly abhorrent in the zeitgeist, because the consciousness of the objectified class is limited, this was a time of divine rights and hereditary classes, and the language to articulate their condition did not exist. (This is basically Hegel's idea of world spirit for anyone wondering, the development of universal political subjectivity)

[@adcaptandumvulgus4252]

I haven't; slavery is bad & pyramids are good, _nailed it_ .

[@alanpennie8013]

@@fruitylerlups530 Well put.

[@fredericksmith7942]

One of the best things about Milo’s work is that he counters the Hancockian stereotype of the “Stuffy, Elitist Academics” by being gracious and respectful when corrected by his peers.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes he's very professional.

[@MisterIncog]

to add to this - it even furthers this point that @veritasetcaritas isn't some expert scientist, but a person who's just able to actually do their research and who proved it by doing so in this video. Definitely not a case of elitism this way.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@MisterIncog yes, I'm just an enthusiastic amateur who knows how to do reearch.

[@tornaperinso1484]

​@@veritasetcaritasWe appreciate your work. Thank you

[@mathewkelly9968]

Miniminuteman fighting the good fight against psuedoarchelogy , as someone too poor to follow my dreams of being an arceolgoist i love him

[@veritasetcaritas]

He does a great job fighting pseudo-archaeology.

[@psychedelicfoundry]

I'm glad you wanted to be an arceologist because you shouldn't be an English teacher. Also, I've literally seen super poor people get Ph'Ds. Don't limit yourself, it is way hard than someone who is born wealthy though.

[@Cumdown]

​@@psychedelicfoundrythey might not be a native English speaker you wingnut. Bad manners, tut tut

[@mathewkelly9968]

​@@psychedelicfoundry I ended up doing a boilermaker apprenticeship , while it's wearing on my body as I approach 50 it's wearing on my body . Teacher would have been my second choice

[@dftp]

​@@psychedelicfoundrywhat a useless and unnecessarily insensitive comment..

[@andrwblood9162]

"We don't call them slaves. They're prisoners with jobs!" - Pharaoh Khufu, probably And also the United States

[@blugaledoh2669]

Shouldn’t prisoners work?

[@christiangudmundsson8390]

@@blugaledoh2669 It's a tricky question, isn't it? Should we have penal colonies? or force prisoners to work? or .. let them choose to work or not, but severely underpay them for the labor? I am not saying, necessarily, that we should pay them standard wages.. although.. imagine if we did... when people got out from long prison terms they would be kinda wealthy, it might (note the "might") work wonders with recidivism (for certain types of crimes, such as robbery and theft, less so for sex crimes, drugs or violent crime and such).

[@blugaledoh2669]

@ hey, they are doing nothing in jail, might as well have them work for the community. Those with lesser crimes can be rewarded with shorten sentences.

[@christiangudmundsson8390]

@blugaledoh2669 I don't mind that. The only thing that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth is when private companies are allowed to use prisoners as extremely cheap labor. In theory I don't know if there's anything wrong with sentencing people to labor, like with penal colonies, even, as long as it's not literally back breaking work. I got a bag with "made in jail" tags on it (here we don't differentiate between jail and prison, or.. we do, but we use the english terms interchangeably, this bag was made in our prison system), which I thought was pretty cool. There prisoners can work and produce goods that are sold on the outside and the money goes to improving the common areas and that sort of thing, as I understood it. Maybe they can buy more video games. I don't know the details. I'm just happy I've got this badass bag and it isn’t made with forced labor.

[@blugaledoh2669]

@ agree with first point

[@LimeyLassen]

The funny thing about being careful about defining slavery is that many diverse, unrelated modern institutions start to fit some (but not all) of those criteria. It's interesting but also uncomfy.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Very much so.

[@Nerdsammich]

Arguably, wage labor fits the definition.

[@toomanymarys7355]

​@@NerdsammichNo, it doesn't, because you have freedom of association. Get off it.

[@toomanymarys7355]

What's funny is that property tax is called slavery in Exodus. 😂 Really, it's a cross between property tax, serfdom, and tenant farming. Shading heavily toward serfdom.

[@MisterIncog]

@@toomanymarys7355 do you though?

[@neongrey333]

There's just something magical about respectful criticism of a legitimate error made to a receptive audience. It's not even the novelty of it, though it is more novel than it should be, there's just something nice about someone pointing out an issue to someone who will genuinely care about it and fix it going forward. (as I believe he already has?)

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@SparklyCoconut-le3fu]

The fact that these myths were perpetuated by an Egyptian nationalist makes sense. Nationalists tend to be apologists for the bad things their countries have done. Thank you, miniminuteman, and other KZbin archaeologists for trying your best to provide the public with accurate information and thank you again for holding miniminuteman accountable

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@alcedob.5850]

yet no one with at least a drop of sense would blame the use of slave labour in Ancient Egypt on modern Egyptians

[@GlutenEruption]

Hawass has been a disaster to accurate Egyptology. He's spent his entire career gatekeeping academic research to only allow teams searching for evidence to support his preexisting conclusions and working to discredit and dismiss any and all others.

[@SparklyCoconut-le3fu]

@ how is this relevant? Can you take your grievance nonsense somewhere else please

[@m0nkEz]

​@@alcedob.5850 I mean nationalists aren't known for their nuance. "Egypt good, therefore Egypt can do nothing bad" is about all you ought to expect from an Egyptian Nationalist.

[@fluffskunk]

Man, it's almost as if distinctions between chattel slavery, debt peonage, conscription, convict labor and wage slavery aren't that big compared to the distinction between those who control the means of production, and those who don't.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Excellent observation, and exactly what I would like viewers to consider.

[@ungabungus01]

It's almost like he is very biased with his political worldviews influencing his videos

[@skalliedA]

@@ungabungus01 not sure what position you think you're taking here, but I'm sure it's very bold and I congratulate you on it. What an epicly pointed call-out.

[@raaaaaaaaaam496]

thank God we can live in an era where anyone can control the means of production

[@dboot8886]

​@@ungabungus01 care to elaborate on that?

[@memelordmarcus]

There needs to be a whole video about "Myths you believed about myths you believed"

[@Richardiii2]

I must say, I'm about twenty minutes in and so far it sounds like ancient schorales are just making the same sorts of excuses that the southern plantation owners did "They were fed like royalty" Yes, you need to feed slaves well if you want them to do hard physical work. That doesn't make them not slaves or their labor magically turn voluntary. Sometimes I think the reason this sort of thing happens because people who study slavery in different societies don't compare notes. They are only familiar with the scholarship on their society's slavery. So, they end up making statements like that, and unknowingly sound like 18th century gentlemen.

[@adorabell4253]

I think it’s more of a terminoligy issue. Similar to how Russian serfs are called serfs and not slaves though they were chattel slaves. Corvee labour, which is what is attributed to Egypt, was often part of a person’s tax burden so it isn’t classed under slavery even though it sort of is. What we consider and call slavery changes as scholarship progresses

[@Richardiii2]

@@adorabell4253 I understand the terminology is technically different. (Although there probably were real slaves involved in the labor as well, as this video later argues) However even in fields where the subject in question was still called a "slave" ie, Medieval Islamic slavery, you will still see statements form modern scholars that echo 18th and 19th century slavery apologists. One example is Johnathon A. C. Brown, who cites reports that slaves in the islamic did not want to be free and love their families rather uncritically in his "Islam and Slavery", which is another common argument made by Southern slavery apologists. Deeper scholastic study has thrown doubt on whether such statements by African and American slaves can be trusted given the context they were made in. Yet Brown doesn't consider this possibility at all in his analysis, something he might have done had he known about the scholarship on American Slavery.

[@Lolibeth]

Much like the 18th century gentleman, they often have a personal bias underpinning their justification. It's not lack of knowledge, but a desire to make it seem 'less bad' because it's either their national/cultural history they're embarrassed by or it's their pet subject society to study and they don't want to be known as 'that person who likes the slave society'

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@adorabell4253 it is important however to note the Egyptians themselves classified corvee laborers as part of their slave labor force. That's why they locked them up in a compound they referred to using the same terminology as a prison, and guarded them with soldiers.

[@joshridinger3407]

also worth noting that american slave states did, in fact, have on-paper laws protecting slaves from 'excessive' violence. up to and including capital punishment for killing them. of course, we know that having laws, on paper, didn't mean much. especially with the slave owning class and their friends deciding what counted as 'excessive' rather than 'moderate correction'. so even that oft-cited notion is wrong.

[@strxwbxrry_420]

Debunking a debunker who was in the middle of debunking is next level debunking. I’m glad to witness an amazing example of scientists correcting each other, while still recognizing each other’s strengths.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! I aim to critique in good faith, and in Milo's case I knew he would respond graciously, as he did.

[@RenoReborn]

The engineering that went into the Pyramids obviously necessitates the need for intelligent and gifted craftsman but they definitely weren't the same people hauling the Stones, it's not a stretch to imagine that the King would conscript a work force of societies undesirables to carry out the hard labour, just look at literally every society that has ever existed for proof of that claim.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, very true.

[@archivalblob56]

While i agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure I'd call that proof. It does make it highly plausible as something to expect unless given contradictory data

[@mortache]

This is exactly what I have been saying to those "feel good" documentaries. OBVIOUSLY not every worker hauling and carving rocks were meat eating elites

[@toomanymarys7355]

The haulers were probably first supplied by foreign slaves of war. The rough masons and balance of haulers were conscripts. The artisans were a small amount by comparison.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@toomanymarys7355 very likely.

[@OtakuJuanma2]

Ngl i was ready to hear an hour of some slave apologists self-owning by taking about slavery being ok actuality. I'm so happy i was wrong.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@GA-1st]

"A distinction without a difference" seems to be the running theme here! And when did "slavery" and being "well fed" become mutually exclusive concepts? It would make no sense if their labor force had to be constantly replenished because of the consequences of being deliberately malnourished, or even worse, starvation! This was a brilliant essay! Thank you. And I hope all the labor involved in your research and analysis has, or will be, compensated in some way - as opposed to being "coerced," self or otherwise! ;-)

[@Lord_Plasma_3]

Unfortunately, in instances in which the labor force can be readily or easily replenished, you'll find much less care given to the laborers without some kind of special effort from the laborers or an external group to bring about said care; If bodies are cheap and plentiful, if they are denied the ability to organize, and are seen as inferior or subhuman... Not disputing what you're saying, just saying the logic *can* have other factors at play that change the outcomes

[@sacha9593]

I strongly disagree with the first part of the video. Using the word slavery to describe any form of coerced labor is making things more confusing than anything else and do weaken the meaning of the term. (We do that with every words on the book nowadays and it is quite tiring.) Why using two different terms if those words have the same meaning? Medieval serfs were not slaves, neither were American indentured servants, or soldiers under conscription, or people who paid some taxes through mandatory unpaid work (corvée), or even people who have to work as a punishment*. Those are form of servitude, not slavery (despite the etymology of the word servitude there is a difference now). And technically you can be a slave without even working, because it is a personal status. *The 13th amendement itself says "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude..." implying a difference between the two (I am not American, I just use this example because it was in the video). (Note that I do think that they were slaves in the strong sense of the word working on the pyramids.)

[@callusklaus2413]

I don't disagree with you at all, but unfortunately there is an instance in history where slaves were treated in just that fashion. Plantation slaves in Brazil, Haiti, Cuba and other places in the coffee/chocolate growing portion of the North Atlantic Slave Trade were burned through like human cogs and gears and then replaced by incoming people from Africa. It's a grim and miserable scenario, and if you have the energy to look into the abyss, it's worth reading up on.

[@SHRUGGiExyz]

2:45 to be honest, when we use these critera for enslaved workforces, we also have to face the fact that most "unskilled labourers" across the world in the modern day are equally as enslaved as those who built the pyramids. But since our pharaohs are still in power, we don't get to call it that until any of us who would face consequences for saying so are long gone. With that said, I do agree with your conclusions, and Milo will probably correct his wording in future. I think its also helpful to remind lay audiences that while the pyramids were built mostly by slaves, that isn't to say it was "biblical slavery" in any or all of it's other details, and this shouldn't be taken as evidence of the truthfulness of any biblical texts. This might be where Milo was tripped up, imo, as with most cases of conspiracist type talk of ancient monuments, you often get an equal number of "it was my god" and "it was my aliens" folks following along. Being careful to avoid their thought terminating cliches is imporant and useful, as long as it doesn't fall into this trap of becoming factually incorrect. Great work, as always!

[@clayxros576]

Hilariously (and lovingly) Milo has already endorsed this video. I wouldn't be surprised if Milo does a "reaction" like he did with the Bagdad Battery, just for the sake of transparency.

[@joshridinger3407]

fwiw exodus never mentions pyramids, it just says the hebrews were subject to forced labor

[@dillon1037]

@@clayxros576 his responses to legitimate critique make that video the Hancock orbiter made about him being a pseudo-archaeologist himself (that World of Antiquity covered in detail) look even more ridiculous. I feel like, in my lifetime, the popular theory on the workforces that built the pyramids has shifted several times but as someone who grew up when the slavery theory was prominent it mostly just felt like name changes for what was still slavery. Haven't had time to watch yet but certitas's criticisms, even of creators I enjoy, are always worth a view.

[@GlutenEruption]

@@dillon1037 I think it's safe to say that every gargantuan construction effort in human history right on through to modern day has been composed of a small number of highly skilled, highly paid administrators, designers, and craftsmen, with the rest made up of unskilled (or much less skilled) laborers to do the grunt work, with most if not all of them doing it because they have few or no other choices, whether because that's the only job they can get in their local area to afford food and shelter, because they were conscripted, or because they were slaves. We think of modern times as more enlightened but it's still coerced labor, just coerced by the threat of starvation and homelessness rather than more direct and immediate force. From the pyramids, to the titanic, to the Qutar World Cup, to skyscrapers etc, very little has changed. We often think of ancients as barbaric and primitive but they were no different than us, the only difference was societal pressures and norms

[@badabing3391]

​@@GlutenEruption the titanic was built with slave labor?

[@hiddenhist]

As I like to say: *who lifted all of the blocks????* The Artisans? I don't know if the Pyramid workers were _slaves_ , but this idea that they were "comfy" skilled labourers makes little sense to me.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yeah, skilled artisans were definitely not being paid and fed well to do fetch and carry work like that.

[@k_tess]

From what I understand, there's almost no distinction between 'a slave' and 'a peasant' during the early bronze age and chalcolithic. If you were born a farmer, you were gonna farm. And your crop would be taken by the Temple/State. Add to that how the Nile has seasons where field laborers would have little to do, and taxes were still paid in labor.

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@k_tess This is not accurate in the Bronze Age most farmland was owned by private land owners not the state and Temple land was generally rented out rather than taxed. Temples only collected Barley so a farmer could still make a profit on other crops. Temples generated wealth by selling processed goods the barley taxes/rents were only there to feed the workforce. Ancient cities had industrial urban economies not agrarian cash crop ones of the type innacurately used to reconstruct the ancient world by politically motived scholars like Karl August Wittfogel. Larger Bronze Age states are tributary empires with no direct interaction with the peasantry when they aren't recruiting soldiers which is generally an opportunity for social mobility even when force and conscription is involved. There are no states in the Chalcolithic Levant as bronze alloys are widespread in the proto-literary period.

[@Sadew_Sadew]

It's believed that the blocks were floated via cannels and water-filled shafts with flotation sacks, so.. physics lifted the blocks.

[@jabanan]

​@@Sadew_Sadewnot believed, thats one of the ideas, theres no evidence and it would be imposible to create a watertight shaft full of water the pressure would be insane

[@Mapleson]

2:48 This is the mark of a true scientist, amateur or professional: when learning something truer than you knew before is more important than protecting your vain pride in your previous efforts. Science embraces constructive criticism.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, it's a great indicator of Milo's intellectual honesty.

[@TheDuckMan2523]

This feels like a slightly clickbaity title for such a mild mannered video on such a tiny point but also that’s the entire point of peer review and I’m all here for it,

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you. I hate clickbait, so I spent a lot of time figuring out the best way to title this video. It's not sensationalist, and it's not misleading, which are the two elements of clickbait, so I think it's fine. It's hard to create an accurate title without avoiding actually mentioning the subject of the video, which is that Milo was wrong about the slaves who built the pyramids.

[@NardoVogt]

Well, are you telling me the pyramid was built upon a pyramid scheme? *I see myself out

[@veritasetcaritas]

Very good!

[@danlambert8387]

The fact that they built the pyramids in the first place tells me they had nothing better to do but boss people around.

[@Cainthegodslayer]

You know, it is refreshing to see people knowing what the hell they are talking about, debating historical stuff. A significant percentage of what I've been dealing with for the past few years were about debunking nonsense, and honestly It made me somewhat jaded, cynical and tired. Good for you 2. Here it feels like people *actually* want to know what went down.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo]

If you're looking for that here, keep looking.

[@Cainthegodslayer]

@@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo why?

[@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo]

@@Cainthegodslayer I've been reviewing the sources this guy has provided in this video, and the conclusions he draws from these sources just don't line up. The kinds of people, their fields of expertise, do no align with the topic he's commenting on. He even says at the beginning of the video that he's defending his view on Ancient Egypt, not what the historical evidence suggests. The pyramids might have been constructed by slaves, but not for any reason given in this video.

[@Cainthegodslayer]

@@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo I do not think, that invalidates what I've said. Using legitimate sources, to draw a conclusion is part of the scientific process. If he is wrong he is wrong, but he is wrong honestly, and that enriches the discourse around the topic, not draws it down like crackpots and conspiracy nuts do.

[@danlambert8387]

So kinda like how we built the US Embassy in Baghdad using subcontractors who kidnapped 3rd world laborers to work for a couple bucks a day or until they could afford to buy their passports back.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yeah that's why that's referred to as modern slavery.

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

There's so much BS in this field, particularly those who argue against debunkers like Miniminuteman, I needed to check you out before deciding this was worth watching. Watched your interview with Cypher and one of your research instruction videos. Obviously those seemed legit, so now I'm watching this.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@australiananarchist480]

I find it particularly funny when governments define slavery quite broadly (as they should, slavery is ANY form of coerced labour) and in the same breath conscript people.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes. This is why historically people have fought for legal exemptions from conscription, and protections for those in miltiary service. Though so-called "penal battalions" stil exist which breach those conditions.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@veritasetcaritas you seen videos of crippled invaders being forced to storm our positions ON CRUTCHES?! It's insane.

[@peterguernsey6831]

Its so nice to see people disagree on the internet and do so with poise and rationality.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@bananabanana484]

Was worried until I saw Milo’s comment thanking this person for the correction; good to see some genuine academic interaction

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@RabblesTheBinx]

Same, if he hadn't commented, I might have just ignored the video altogether and not even clicked on it.

[@aaronlarsen7447]

Slaves can be craftsman too. Doctors can be forced to work, and have been.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Very true.

[@KasumiRINA]

Scientists and engineers too, that's how Soviet system worked, very obvious with captured Germans who were forced to work making weapons for the other side of Molotov-Ribbentrop alliance.

[@موسى_7]

Islamic slavery involved literate people being captured in wars , who were freed if they taught a whole bunch of people how to read. That's what I remember I just can't remember the source or the details. Maybe I heard it in Arabic.

[@kwarra-an]

23:17 I am (somewhat?) shocked at the fact that every single one of these applies to the migrant labour system in colonial and apartheid South Africa. The mining compounds were just... exactly what is described here. I'd always thought it sounded like "pretty much" slavery, but the 1:1 nature of it just hit me now.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes indeed.

[@theworldlistener1969]

Beyond the technical elements of forced labour and conditions, I think there are several additional questions that are essential to ask with a topic like this before you can create a full sense of the injustice. What is the precise purpose of the conscripted labour? What, at the society's then-point of techno-political development, are the alternatives to conscripted labour for achieving the same purpose? What is the time frame of conscription? What does the labourer sacrifice materially? What do they gain materially? What do they gain non-materially, say in terms of a religious identification with the project? If the labourer is not themselves directly gaining, what's their social proximity to those who are? How does the social proximity between benefiter and labourer moderate the harshness of the labourer's treatment? Only through those extra questions can you differentiate between conscripted labour for the pyramids versus, say, conscription for an emergency military defence. Both of those, on a technical level, meet all of the criteria used in this essay for slavery, being unpaid, involuntary, dangerous, policed with imprisonment and worse. The real issue dwells elsewhere - in terms of purpose, the pyramids being a pure vanity project while war is much more essential to survival, and in terms of who gains, the pyramids concentrating all their glory on the one pharaonic figure, while military conscription, even if it can kill the conscriptee, can keep their family and their immediate community alive. If we sum up these differences, I think it becomes very clear that the pyramids are much, much, much more abominable than military conscription. Conversely, if we adjust some of the parameters of military conscription, changing the purpose from say a defensive war to a war of aggression, then it shifts closer in abominability, becoming more akin to 'slavery'. And you can do a similar analysis with the pyramids versus the Atlantic slave trade. They are identical in certain respects, but quite different with others, and I think which of those you're focusing on is going to change the appropriateness of equating them as forms of slavery. Like, the Egyptian case, using mostly local labour, is not typified by the extreme degree of ethnic social distance that exists with the Atlantic slave trade or most other historical forms of slavery, i.e by the preceding military conflicts and body-snatching as booty/reparation, by the benefiter's view of the conscriptee as a vanquished alien, more a work animal than a human, and the resulting comfort with maltreatment of this work animal up to the point that the work animal's labour efficiency declines. From a different social proximity angle, however, the Pharaoh is separated from the Egyptian labourer by many more layers of bureaucracy and religious caste (as living god versus human) than exists between an American slave holder and their slave, and these layers create their own distinct forms of dehumanisation. I don't know which ends up worse on the whole, but I do think we can say, quite confidently, that they're both examples of exploitation at its historical worst, that they're both forms of 'slavery' in that most emotional sense, i.e. slavery as a type of labouring hell.

[@wesleyquere4979]

I would argue most wars are not fought over the survival of the population of one region, but over the survival of the ruling caste's political control over the lands they rule over. Better example would be the conscription of a city's population to resist an immediate threat, akin to a looting force. The siege of Prague in 1648 comes to my mind. But i do agree that helping in building the final resting place of the mortal body of a god might have helped the labourers into thinking they were at least doing something important, though with both the violence to keep them working, threats of their family getting enslaved as well it seems the issue of them running away was still present, so i'd argue some of them must have no cared a lot about building a tomb until they died, and not even getting one for themselves. All in all, forcing thousands of people to work and die in order to have a very fancy tomb, fully intending on having your own name be remembered for eternity, and never caring enough about the people who actually toil and die to build it is proof enough, to me at least, that slavery is slavery because you remove the freedom of choice from humans, and force them to to do something that benefits yourself. Any and all types of slavery boil down to this, i'd say, turning humans into numbers so you can stop caring entirely.

[@theworldlistener1969]

​@@wesleyquere4979 That's definitely a primary agent in many wars, especially those where mass conscription is employed, but I still don't know if it's sufficient to dismiss war as an existential threat to the general population, one somehow less meriting of forceful mobilisation than looting. Not all societies have had such a clean division between rulers and subjects that a foreign invader would just plug-and-play themselves into the leadership caste and keep the lower classes unmolested. Egypt, specifically, is a society where this type of peaceful-ish transition has happened for thousands of years, due to a combination of its hyper-hierarchal structure and the ease of exporting its agricultural products down the Nile that makes its peasantry valuable in situ. In other societies, though, rulers and subjects can be much more enmeshed. The ruler's prestige derives not from any objective material wealth but from their internal standing amongst their own subjects, and foreign conquests aren't viewed as intrinsically valuable, the barbarian being a neuter subject who generates no prestige, but only gain their value in so far as they support and boost the ruler's internal ranking. In these cases, a conquered people tends to be punished much harder after defeat, e.g. made victim to looting, to enslavement for export, to further class demotion in systems of apartheid a la the Indian multi-tier caste system, to perhaps genocide to open up lebensraum. A military defence against this type of outsider is fiercely existential. Historically, there's been a very gradual transition from the second type of war into the type you describe, as the development of first Imperialism and then Capitalism have widened the class separation between ruling castes and subjects globally, such that a modern ruler finds value in owning unrelated subjects. The second type of war has, however, still very much been going on even in recent times, blended with the first. Germany, famously, fought during WW2 the first type on its Western front and the second on its Eastern front, which is why those fronts do not look remotely similar.

[@theworldlistener1969]

​@@wesleyquere4979 Just recalled this comment is on a Marxist (?) youtube channel. All that I was talking about is essentially just a manifestation of Hegel's master-slave dialectic. You can view Imperialism and Capitalism as transitory phases, slightly progressed from earlier social formations, that have caused a partial humanisation of previously inhuman outside subjects, one which, simultaneously and in an unstable contradiction with itself, opens them up to enslavement and imposes restrictions on their maltreatment, which eventually transforms them from slaves into imperial citizens, and then from citizens into modern labourers. The punitive outcomes of war change in tandem with this dialectical progression, the cleaner war in which lower classes can be traded almost freely across polities occurring at the beginnings of imperialism.

[@pyrosianheir]

I was super worried about this video when I saw it randomly pop up.... Then I saw Milo being cordial in the comments and knew this wouldn't be the kind of video I was worried about.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@Linnnaeus]

Very wonderful and informative video. I was worried at first it would just be another hit piece on Milo but I was very relieved that you were respectful and still noted his good character (willing to learn from his mistakes) and also not undermining his intelligence and research capabilities despite not holding a doctorate in archaeology

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@dfunited1]

When I see this argument pop up, I think, "Well of course the pyramids weren't built *by* slaves." Modern buildings aren't built *by* dump trucks, cement mixers, cranes and other tools. Pyramids, and modern monuments, were built *by* rulers *with* their skilled experts and *with* cheapest available labor and tools. Company A makes shoes *with* cheap labor. Country B invades C *with* cheap labor. I don't necessarily agree with that philosophy, but it's the one that rulers, generals, countries, companies, and history seem to prescribe to.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, it's fairly intuitive. A lot more likely than an ancient ruler paying their subjects better than a twenty first century worker in a union.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@Red-Brush yes that is exactly what I am saying. That is literally what the entire video is saying.

[@KasumiRINA]

Nah I hate it, people aren't tools. Billionaires don't build shit, the CAT operator does. Same here, it wasn't Pharaoh doing anything, it were the people who actually build this stuff. Regardless if they were slaves, forced or paid, THEY built pyramids. Not some inbred guy on a throne.

[@tommasotiberi5666]

The one thing i know for sure is that modern slaves (looking at you, amazon) aren't doing something that 5k years in the future will be looked at with awe

[@veritasetcaritas]

Very true. It's likely people will look back and ask "How was that even legal?", and "How did they not recognize that as slavery?".

[@danf3201]

The danger here is simply labelling all forms as simply "slavery" I think by this definition "slavery" is being used as an umbrella term for any kind of coerced or in some way unwanted labour. As such much like with "animal" being an umbrella term that describes both a komodo dragon and an owl there needs to be more specific terms added to more clearly define each form. In the First World War troops from all major powers were conscripted, conscription being a form of state forced labour or slavery with the threat of imprisonment where the would be military conscript would instead be subject to convict labour, a second, and different form of slavery. Of course, before this perhaps he was a miner who thanks to the mine guard, company store and scrip system had no savings whatsoever and despite working hard his entire life had never generated any profit for himself, meaning he had essentially worked for free under threat by private mine security if he tried to leave without settling his impossible debts with the company first. A third form of slavery using deception, coercion and false financial promises, debt slavery. These three are forms of slavery yes, but are different like the animal examples were, just pointing to an owl and saying "animal" is as unhelpful in giving a detailed and describing name like "Screech Owl" as pointing at Corvee labour like the pyramid labourers and saying "slavery" instead of "forced state labour tax" a form of slavery enforced by the overarching social organisation that governs their lives and territory, coerces the work from them and is broadly considered one of the predecessors to modern taxation. Slavery describes this, but only at the most base level, more is needed. Slavery isn't the wrong word, and it should be the starting word, it's just the broadest possible label to apply to work done that is not strictly voluntary and unnecessary.

[@veritasetcaritas]

The definition of slavery I have given here is narrow, not broad. It is not simply "coerced labor". It does not apply to military service, or even conscription, since: 1. There were legal exemptions for concription. 2. Conscripts were not subject to arbitrary punishment. 3. Conscripts were not locked up in prison-like accomodation and prevented from leaving their accommodation by soldiers. 4. Conscripts had the legal right to various forms of leave. 5. Conscripts could be discharged on medical, compassionate, and other grounds. The reasons why I described corvee labor as a form of slavery rather than simply "forced state labor tax" were: 1. Corvee labor was not a form of taxation, it was in lieu of taxation. 2. It was extracted from some people who didn't even pay tax. 3. Corvee laborers were treated the same way as other slaves in ancient Egypt. 4. It was identified as a form of slavery by Egyptians. These are some of the reasons why the scholars I cited regard it as a form of slavery.

[@Laroac]

@@veritasetcaritas "Corvée laborers retained their personal freedoms and were not considered property." Is this a false statement?

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@Laroac they weren't considered property, but they didn't retain their personal freedoms; while they were corvee laborers, they were locked up in a compound guarded by soldiers when they weren't working.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@veritasetcaritas so more like prison labor and penal battalions than kripaky, who had it much worse being sold and bought and even their kids being born slaves for life.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@KasumiRINA yes.

[@ComradePhoenix]

Actually, I find it interesting that you brought up the length of time the pyramids took to build, because a youtuber called Night Scarab made a video back in 2023 that made a credible sounding (at least to me, but I'm not in academia) case that the pyramids could have been built in 9 months.

[@veritasetcaritas]

That sounds very optimistic. I will see if I can find it.

[@Yevjer]

I think the revelation that the pyramids used slavery is not a surprise to me what matters is the origins of most of the forced laborers. If they were mostly of Egyptian origins then it’s not too different from modern Egyptians being forced to join the military, forced into labor by the current circumstances of the country and them building the Suez Canal. There’s a historical consistency, I think the dispute arises if the majority of the slaves were of non Egyptian origins which would make the pyramids a great source of shame as they were created by a foreign people that were forced into building it. If anything if most of the mega projects built in ancient Egypt were built by Egyptian slaves then at the very least there’s a sort of solidarity with our ancestors who were put into similar circumstances as us by authoritarian rulers

[@veritasetcaritas]

I was actually surprised to learn that foreign laborers were so frequently used, either in the form of captives or prisoners of war.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@veritasetcaritas it's amazing how for so many years people were gaslighting us about Egypt never enslaving foreigners because they wanted the jooooooz to be wrong. There's SO MUCH evidence at enslaving foreign PoWs and migrants. Only way to deny it would to be a hardcore Ahnenerbe follower.

[@KasumiRINA]

Question: why are people always arguing aboht how the GREAT pyramid was built? There's more than 100 of them! The one that looks biggest in the center of most pictures isn't even it. But it seems that people are makig claims about Khufu's one as if it wasn't unique and things applied to it (i.e. functions of Grand Gallery) don't apply to most others?

[@veritasetcaritas]

Possibly because they don't know much about the others, and because the Great Pyraid is very large, and because it was built in an astonishingly short amount of time.

[@overphiend]

I've always hated how the labor force is always framed as either all slaves or all non slaves. Although i dislike the phrasing of skilled/unskilled and prefer specialized and unspecialized labor, all construction projects even today have both. ANd if your society has slaves or any form of cheap of free labor, thats who will do the unspecialized labor on a construction project.

[@thecommuterzombie]

I'm hugely impressed by the quality and depth of research in your video. Props to Milo as well for his reaction.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! Milo was very gracious in his response.

[@thecommuterzombie]

@@veritasetcaritas I am slightly confused on one point though, you don't seem to mention ancient aliens at all! ;-D

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@thecommuterzombie I am very old-fashioned!

[@SomasAcademy]

Great video! I'm cautious about referring to corvee laborers as enslaved, simply because, as corvee labor was a form of taxation, this terminology can lend itself to certain dubious arguments about taxation itself being a form of enslavement (which, for the record, can be logically sound, but seem to me to abstract the definition of slavery to an untenable level). That said, I think the evidence presented in this video is valuable both for noting that it's certainly not reasonable to confidently assert that the pyramids were solely build by skilled artisans, and for demonstrating that Ancient Egyptian society was honestly kind of totalitarian by modern standards. I've at times drawn parallels between Ancient Egypt and North Korea to make the point that for all its grandeur it was not a great place to live, and the presence of literal labor camps in Ancient Egypt certainly seems to strengthen these parallels.

[@neoqwerty]

You're not off with your Ancient Egypt and North Korea comparison, given that NK has a specific form of government-imposed "secular religion" that basically deifies in all but name the ruling family. (it's honestly as close to a cult/religious movement as something that's supposed to NOT be religious gets, and IMHO it goes WAY beyond just a "normal" cult of personality. if you've got some hours to kill go down the rabbit hole that is _Juche_ ideology.)

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you for your encouraging comments! I think it's easy enough to demonstrate the libertarian argument is a false equivalence. |For example: 1. When you're taxed, no one locks you in a prison guarded with soldiers UNTIL you pay, unlike corvee labor. 2. When you're taxed, the money is used for infrastructure you use every day, unlike corvee labor when the ruler exploits your labor for his private building. 3. When you're taxed, the government doesn't permanently enslave your wife and children if you fail to pay. 4. When you're taxed, you don't lose your freedom of movement, nor are there guards standing by who can punish you arbitrarily.

[@logitimate]

(2) seems extremely dubious. A great deal of what governments actually do with taxes has little or nothing to do with maintaining infrastructure that I routinely use. Conversely, while this may not be true of the pyramids, corvée labor has very often been used for the creation and maintenance of infrastructure such as roads and irrigation systems. (3) seems like more of a difference in broader societal attitudes toward familial punishments than one inherently tied to taxation vs. corvée, given that the government absolutely _will_ imprison _me_ for willful failure to pay my taxes. (1) and (4) are stronger, I'll grant. Of course, some forms of non-labor taxation have particular odious features of their own, such as the _continual_ monitoring and meddling necessitated by an income tax, or the invasion of privacy that results from a property tax that includes the value of improvements, and not solely the value of the land in its natural state.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@logitimate true, all monetized KZbinrs have extra income tax from USA, and now USAid is gone, OUR TAXES do not go to our infrastructure anymore, but are all taken by orange pharaoh. I don't want even ONE CENT of my taxes to be in USA, I want ALL OF IT to go to Ukraine, but I get no say, muskrat wants to steal money from Ukrainians.

[@nngnnadas]

A more steelmany version of the creativity argument would be that the condition of slavery require breaking your spirit and antagonising you, so it's not really conductive to creative work. But I don't think this is really true either.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, it's not really an argument based in archaeology.

[@lawrencegoldworm]

You are one of the very few podcasters I've run across that has true integrity and concern for the viewer's time. I am won over by the non-clickbait subject matter and you stating right up front what you believe and why you believe it. Thank you for this.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you so much!

[@FellowInconsistent]

@@veritasetcaritasI agree about the not clickbait-y part! With the modern KZbin algorithm, some click bait/generalization on subject matter is necessary but for any amount of that you did, you quickly dispelled the concerns in the first 5 minutes

[@veritasetcaritas]

@FellowInconsistent thank you. The ideal KZbin video title is only 45 characters long so it's entirely visible even on mobile devices, so I try to keep to that, but it does mean it's very hard to produce an accurate, informative, and nuanced title. However, I think a simple title like "X is wrong about Y" is fine; it's not sensationalist, and in this case it's not clickbait since there is no bait and switch. As you note, I provide a clear explanation with nuance in the first few minutes. I also provide additional information in the video description.

[@FellowInconsistent]

@ Yeah!

[@blitsriderfield4099]

So glad I clicked on this. Thought it was gonna be like that other individual who accused Milo of being a "pseudoarchaeologist" and am pleasantly surprised by the opposite

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you very much. I am actually working on a video addressing pseudo-archaeology on KZbin.

[@charlieterry8506]

you know something I wonder Veritas et caritas is if it's really ok to skip around to different chapters in the video to get specific information I want? Like does each chapter not successively build upon the next throughout the video and thus I'd be missing key info if I jumped from 7:14 to 32:54, or is it really ok to treat your long form videos like this more like a catalog that I can jump from chapter to chapter?

[@veritasetcaritas]

They are designed with self contained sections so you can skip back and forth, no problem. But yes the strength of the overall argument derives from the accumulation of points and evidence made in order. So it's okay to skip, you'll just get the argument in more coherent detail if you watch from start to finish.

[@charlieterry8506]

@@veritasetcaritas Thank you for the reply sir! I appreciate it!

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@charlieterry8506 you're very welcome.

[@jeffstorey9147]

Thank you. Thank you for providing a summary in the Intro, and the timestamp for the “quick version” section. Brilliant formatting

[@veritasetcaritas]

You're welcome. I always aim to make my videos as accessible as possible, especially those in long form.

[@MaggotTayne]

Good on you for talking about prisoners in the US. California depends on their slave labour every summer during the wildfires and they are barely compensated. The real kicker is many are barred from becoming actual paid firefighters after their release due to their criminal record, so the experience and training is also for nothing.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you. It's almost prophetic that I was talking about this just before the recent fires in California, during which many prisoners were used as firefighters in the way you describe.

[@RabblesTheBinx]

It is worth noting that California has been working on improving that. Currently, inmates can receive credits towards their sentence and, once released, can apply to have their records expunged so they can become regular firefighters. It's limited to non-violent offenders, but... y'know, I have kinda a hard time saying they should let violent offenders off the hook?

[@KasumiRINA]

@@RabblesTheBinx why do you think letting former criminals become FIREFIGHTERS letting them off the hook? You think it's better to keep former criminals without employment so they go back to crime??? The insane extreme right idea Americans have that criminal record should be forever, or that criminals shouldn't vote. HELLO, actual democracies like Ukraine have prisoners voting FROM PRISON. California is 200 years behind us in human rights. Texas is forever behind.

[@10z20]

GREAT video, really really enjoyed it. Been a huge fan for years, always hoping for your success, please maintain these tip-top standards, now and forever!

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! On the one hand I reallly wish I could upload more frequently, but on the other hand it takes a great deal of time to research a topic to this depth and produce an hour long video on it. I will always prioritize quality over quantity.

[@leamsol5615]

im ngl, when i clicked this video, I thought this was gonna be some ancient aliens stuff, very happy so far it's not that.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@SubtleSalmon]

I'm surprised the flooding season didn't come up in the video. Because a part of corvee labor was that during the flooding season the farmers didn't have as much work to do, so that is when they were conscripted to work

[@veritasetcaritas]

I didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the building of the pyramids, which required the extraordinary conscription of corvee laborers regardless of the season.

[@YokaiLover699]

Super happy to see that this wasn't/isn't a typical "you wrong" video. You went above and beyond w/ evidence and sourcing. Keep up the fantastic work!

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you so much!

[@darthutah6649]

I guess we at least know that the pyramids were not built by Hebrew slaves.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes. The Bible says nothing at all about the Hebrews building pyramids.

[@patavinity1262]

I think the “What do we mean by ‘slavery’?” section is rather weak. 1. Suzanne Miers’s definition of ‘chattel slavery’ which you provide is insufficient, because the most important distinguishing factor is the *legal* status of slavery in this context. Slavery in the United States, for example, was a social institution regulated under law. This is the main point of difference. Every element of the definition you gave can apply also to modern slavery or other kinds of slavery. 2. “Now I'll discuss so-called modern slavery which I think is relevant because it's a form of coerced labor which definitely isn't chattel slavery but which is still literally slavery” - You make the assertion that it is ‘literally’ slavery without supporting that assertion. *Why* do you think it is? There are many potential arguments to the contrary which you are not addressing. 3. “People laboring under modern slavery aren't chattel slaves according to the regular academic definitions nevertheless they are indisputably enslaved laborers” - Of course it’s disputable! Again, this assertion requires a supporting argument which you haven’t provided. 4. “the distinction between their specific form of slavery and that of chattel slavery is typically vanishingly small” - Highly debatable. What, statistically, do you consider to be ‘typical’? The concept of modern slavery covers a broad range, and many who are categorized as modern slaves experience *very* different conditions from those of historical chattel slaves. 5. “I don't like the idea of the individual words ‘slave’ and ‘slavery’ being defined so narrowly that they only refer to chattel slavery since doing so has the effect of excluding forms of modern labor relations which really are slavery” - This is a reasonable *ethical* argument, but you are getting ahead of yourself - this section is supposed to be discussing the *semantic* complexities of the term ‘slavery’ and you haven’t yet properly staked out a definition of that term. You assert again that these forms of labor relations ‘really are slavery’ without bothering to explain why they should be considered in this way. 6. “Taking them out of that category makes them a lot easier to justify which I think has serious ethical implications” - Again this is irrelevant. We are supposed to be considering what slavery *is*, not its ethical consequences. 7. “It's certainly a fact that international organizations and many governments define various forms of coerced labor as ‘slavery’ even if they don't qualify specifically as chattel slavery” - This is just a lazy argument from authority. It doesn’t matter what organizations and governments say - we aren’t required to agree with their definitions. *You* should have come up with your *own* definition and supported it with reasoned argumentation. Serious objections can be made to all of the statements you quote here and seem to take for granted as factual. 8. The legal definitions you provide from the British and American governments are especially meaningless in the context of this video, precisely because they are *legal* definitions and are meant only to aid the functioning of anti-slavery laws. They are useless as a contribution to a philosophical or historical analysis. Furthermore the British government’s definition is circular in nature - it defines ‘slavery’ as slavery, and the passage you cited from the US government is meant to define ‘forced labor’ which can be considered, is considered by many, to be distinct from slavery. 9. “When prisoners in the US are coerced into or even volunteer for labor without pay or virtually no pay it is explicitly justified by appeal to the Thirteenth Constitutional Amendment which states the imposition of slavery is still legal ‘as punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted’” - I don’t know if you are being deliberately disingenuous or not here, but you have specifically left out a crucial part of that passage. In its entirety it reads (emphasis mine): “Neither slavery *nor involuntary servitude,* except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” There is a clear distinction being made here between ‘slavery’ and ‘involuntary servitude’ and I would argue that is reasonable to assume that it is the latter which is being referred to in the clause relating to punishment for crimes. 10. “When people justify US prison labor by appealing to that amendment they are saying they believe US prison labor, even voluntary and paid, is slave labor” - No, clearly not - see 9 above. Furthermore, saying that US prison labor is justified because of that amendment is saying no more than that the Constitution is justified. That has no bearing on one’s individual semantic or ontological or ethical conception of slavery. 11. “It is true some prison labor is paid for, such as certain forms of manufacturing. Some prison labor is even volunteered for and paid for, such as when prisoners volunteer for firefighting duties for which they are trained and for which they receive money. But whenever the labor is a product of coercion, this is slavery whether or not it is paid for or volunteered for.” - Highly contentious. There are many arguments which could be made, which have been made, to the effect that there are fundamentally important distinctions between imprisonment and slavery, none of which you bother to address here. Again, you make an assertion that ‘this is slavery’ without any supporting argumentation and it therefore can be dismissed out of hand. *Why* do you think this? Explain. 12. At 12:07 you listed some similarities between chattel and modern slavery. 1-3 are necessary but not sufficient for a practicable definition of either - they also can apply to prisoners or those in military service. You have suggested that you consider that prisoners are slaves, or can be, but you haven’t provided an argument for this position. 4 is very debatable - most people would agree I think that coercion and consent are *extremely* relevant. I think 5 is the only unambiguously valid criterion you include here. 13. “Chattel slaves are property, modern slaves are not. Chattel slavery was typically permanent, modern slavery is typically not.The children of chattel slaves are legally also slaves, the children of modern slaves are not. Chattel slaves typically had no legal protection from arbitrary violence from their masters, modern slaves typically have at least some, though these laws may not be enforced consistently or even at all” - The word ‘typically’ is very important here, and I’m not sure why it’s not included in each sentence, because it applies to each point here. To discuss whether or not modern slaves are ‘property’ requires a definition of that concept. You seem to have decided that only a strictly legalist understanding of property can be valid. 14. “I think the pyramid laborers qualify as an enslaved workforce as defined by modern slavery and by academic definitions of enslavement” - But you *haven’t* defined modern slavery as you understand it, and the definitions you do include (from Suzanne Miers, Anti-Slavery International and the British and American governments) are questionable and you haven’t made any effort to defend them or even compare them. In short, the question 'what do we mean by slavery' is still no closer to being answered.

[@NQR-9000]

I agree that Veritas et Caritas is going for quite a maximalist definition of slavery that is so broad that we should consider any conscripted soldier (even those of democratic countries that fight against an invading force, like Ukraine) or people who are doing alternative penalty like public service as it's performed in most European countries as slaves. Maybe I'm too much of a pragmatist, but I try to keep my definitions useful to my ability to think about the world, so having such a broad definition of slavery would either make what I really consider as slavery (the fact of being sequestered and forced under duress to work for the interest of someone else) seems more benign, while it could make things I'm for (like supporting Ukraine or alterantive punishments) indefensible without having to create exceptions... That doesn't means Veritas et Caritas didn't do a great job in this video detailling the more complicated realities of forced labor in ancient Egypt; BTW. Tahnks for that very interesting exploration of the sources 🙂

[@Jd-808]

@@NQR-9000or maybe slave labor isn’t inherently evil and doesn’t have to be defined around that assumption

[@NQR-9000]

@@Jd-808 It is true that I define "slavery" around a concept I personally see as condemnable, and I do it for practical reasons : the difference between what I see as acceptable "forced labor" and "slavery" is important enough for me to try avoiding confusion when I talk about them. Of course, definitions are conventions and are always subject to revisions (which is not a problem provided it's done openly and not to try semantic bait and switch games 😅). Ultimately, every word is only a quick way to evoque in the mind of your interlocutor the same concept (and the same moral position) you define with it in your own mind, and this is why it's very difficult to use words and définitions of today to describe accurately the foreign world of the past...

[@BrandonPilcher]

My understanding is that slavery in the traditional sense requires some kind of ownership. You are someone's property if you are enslaved. I don't know if that applies to corveed laborers in ancient Egypt, even if many of them didn't have the greatest working conditions.

[@dboot8886]

​@@Jd-808.... what do you get out of saying that?

[@rateeightx]

Oh man, I recall seeing the announcement for this like a month ago and being excited, But I didn't know until now when I decided to check it was actually out yet. Thanks for the notification, KZbin!

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thanks for watching!

[@rateeightx]

@@veritasetcaritas Just finished watching it (I got a bit busy after that comment, and thus didn't have time to watch it last night), You're welcome! Great video, While I'm nowhere near an Archaeologist or Egyptologist, I'd certainly heard that they were indeed not slaves but well-treated labourers before, Multiple times, So it's nice to learn the truth about the situation.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@rateeightx thank you so much!

[@ChowdiusPupperMemusII]

YES I’ve been thinking of making a cooking thing in a mod for fun, this is perfect

[@TheHalflingLad]

"You might be a slave" is Jeff Foxworthy's most depressing bit.

[@lecolintube]

17:07 I’m really curious as to the finding of ‘sheep and goat’ bones - that lead to the claim ‘they weren’t (chattel or corvee) slaves because they ate well (because they had meat).’ Am I correct in understanding that at the very least sheep and goats weren’t considered ‘high class’ food, or at the very least, were even disdained in Ancient Egypt? Could it be that finding ‘sheep and goat’ bones actually helps support the notion that the Pyramids were built by second class citizens (or even slave workers)?

[@veritasetcaritas]

Here's the statement. In this case more beef and higher quality fish were found in the guard quarters, showing the guards ate better than the workers they were guarding. "The percentage of cattle bones against sheep/goats bones is 56 : 40 (Fig. 62), and the percentage of high quality perch against less desirable catfish is 67 : 26. These data reveal that the residents of the NSGH [North Street Gate House] consumed better food than the population of the barracks, which fits the identification of the former with the guards of the work-camp (Lehner & Tavares 2010, 194-199; Redding 2010, 69).", Micòl Di Teodoro, Labour Organisation in Middle Kingdom Egypt, Middle Kingdom Studies 7 (Londres: Golden House Publications, 2018), 95. Sheep and goats were lower class food, so the fact that they were eaten more by the workers than by the guards, indicates the workers were lower status.

[@lecolintube]

@ Wow, thank you for such an in depth and highly researched response 🧡 I was curious because it seemed the initial quote (which you were commenting on - not agreeing with) seemed to implying ‘Meat = Well fed/Well looked after/Equal status. However it sounded like they could have been interpreting this evidence through a very modern lens. (Which happens - though suprised me here). Rather than - different types of meat could denote different classes. Absolutely love your response to Milo here - I love that it’s simply a ‘let’s look deeper here together’ approach 🧡🕊️ Hope you both get to either have further discussions, or collaborate or possibly even work together in the future. Thanks so much again.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@lecolintube ah yes, one of the quotations I cited made the argument "Look, they were given meat so they can't have been slaves", but the other one I provided added more nuance, observing "Although they were given meat, it was lower quality meat of the type eaten by people of little social standing, so yes they could have been slaves". Thanks for the very positive response, I'm so glad you enjoyed this exchange! I have great respect for Milo, and would love to collaborate with him in future if he was interested in doing so.

[@RabblesTheBinx]

You know, this video has made me reevaluate how I react to video titles. I was entirely expecting it to be another conspiracy theorist hit piece until I saw Milo's comment. Also, damned good video; very informative, respectful, and well-sourced. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@mardalfossen]

I think your point that it’s a difference without a distinction doesn’t emphasize the lack of personhood. You’re right that often the law doesn’t do anything for other enslaved people but with chattel slavery the law would send you back to slavery, it being illegal to runaway. But I think it just could have been handled a bit more gracefully because there is a very common racist sentiment that chattel slavery in the Americas was the same as all other slavery and folks need to get over it. Great video though. Just some feedback from one Afro indigenous person’s perspective. (Edit to clarify that I’m not saying Egyptian slavery was different in this regard, just that not all slavery has the very damaging distinction of lack of personhood.)

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate the support. I actually put it another way; a distinction without a difference. But I confined that remark to the status of labor; both parties are involved in labor via coercion. At the end of the section "What do we really mean by slavery?" I specifically called out the dehumanization of the chattel slave by noting "Chattel slaves are property, modern slaves are not", since I think that's an important differentiation between chattel slaves and modern slavery. I totally agree with your comments on how people try to delegitimize criticism of North American chattel slavery. It is important to differentiate bewteen plantation slavery on the one hand, and the indentured servitude of the Irish on the other. Many of the indentured Irish were subjected to what we would call modern slavery, but they were not slaves in the same way as black slaves; in particular they were not enslaved on a racial basis, nor dehumanized.

[@mardalfossen]

@ that’s fair. My bad for mixing up your words. I think it’s too easy for people to hear that chattel slaves are property and not think of the emotional impact on the enslaved. As opposed to other phrasing but that’s just tone policing. 🤔 but thank you for clarifying, I did not interpret the ending as calling out the dehumanization originally.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@mardalfossen no problem at all. I could have made that a bit clearer I have to say. If I did this video again I would close a few apparent loopholes in my wording and tighten up a couple of the definitions to clarify some issues.

[@aetherkid]

I don't think any kind of slavery is good, because it all dehumanizes you. Some slavery being worse doesn't make one better- both are bad. Slavery is wrong and needs to be outlawed every where.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@aetherkid yes, agreed. That's why I think narrowing the definition to one kind of slavery dangerous; it justifies other forms of slavery.

[@salmonslayers7866]

So just so I can see if I get this clear at the start of the video you say it is hotly debated whether or not slaves or craftsman were the ones who built the pyramids but then go on to say well actually some small amount of skilled craftsman help build the pyramids but it was mostly slaves. As someone with a rational mind I want to assume that because the way the blocks were cut that part was done by the skilled craftsman while the heavy lifting of the blocks to fit into the pyramid shape was done by slave labor perhaps?

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yeah it tends to be "hotly debated" among non-specialists. As this video shows, the close you get to the most specialized literature, such as literature on ancient Egyptian labor and economics, as well as the most focused archaeological studies, the more you see an agreement that they were slaves. And yes, skilled labor such as dressing the stones and certain kinds of shaping was done by the skilled workers, while the heavy lifting and unskilled fetch and carry labor was carried out by the slaves.

[@ImmortalLemon]

This is how internet arguments should be

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@g0rdonfreeman1]

Just found this channel and I love it. I’ve always wondered how Lindy Beige is with his historical research, would be cool to see a video on him.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! I used to watch Lindy quite a lot years ago, so I would have to return to his channel to see what he's up to now. He mainly presents pop history, and I know he has received criticism on a couple of subreddits, from very informed people. www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/703fmv/lindybeige_and_the_war_scythe/ www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4jzavd/is_the_youtube_historian_lindybeige_reliable/ There's also this. www.tumblr.com/qsycomplainsalot/716880212463337472/lindybeige-is-either-an-idiot-or-an-asshole

[@g0rdonfreeman1]

@ Thanks for the quick reply! I’ll give these a read. :)

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@g0rdonfreeman1 you're welcome!

[@vaethe]

As soon as I heard the accent I knew he was cooked.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Oh dear!

[@mini_hek]

watched for the hate and clickbait, stayed for the constructive criticism and academic honesty

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@jmshear]

Minuteman being intellectually honest, again. I look forward to the rest of your video.

[@veritasetcaritas]

His intellectual honesty is one of his greatest strengths as a history KZbinr.

[@jmshear]

@@veritasetcaritas a science communicator. You pulling the nuance out just makes the whole of humanity better. Thank you.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@jmshear thank you!

[@lucasdesouzaborba2836]

Great work! It's great to see an in-depth analysis and a deep dive into academic sources about a topic that's so controversial in the Pop History and Archaeology sphere, where people seem to be unable to reach an agreement about the subject. Very clarifying, most of all. That brings me to a question I wanted to ask: have you ever considered making a video on the controversial topic of the ethnicity, color and physical features of Ancient Egyptians? I feel like this is also a very dividing subject in the field of Pop History, as through my time in academia I've always heard different things from different sources, and as an educator, when teaching to my students about Ancient Egypt, I've always been unsure about what to tell them. I feel like a video of yours on the matter, with the meticulous research you always do, would be of great use to the community.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! I have actually thought of doing a video on that subject, but it would take a lot of time to research. The short version of course is that Egypt was a multi-cultural region with an ethnically heterogenous population, so the skin color and ethnicity of both commonters and the elites changed in proportion over time, incorporating local Egyptians, Nubians, Semites, Macedonians, Greeks, and Romans.

[@lucasdesouzaborba2836]

@@veritasetcaritas Yes, I have been answered that before, my biggest question is, to put it more clearly, whether this first Egyptian population could be considered what we call "Subsaharian African" in physical features. That is, thicker lips, broader noses, coily hair and (more often than not) dark skin, what ethnographically we refer to as "negroid". That is what I was taught in College, at least. But modern Egyptians claim direct descent from the first Egyptians, and they don't look like that. Of course, I always had it in my understanding that modern Egyptians must be of Arab descent (that is, Semitic), and if one wanted to see how the first Egyptians looked like they should look at the Coptic population, but they also don't look Subsaharian. It was always very confusing to me.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@lucasdesouzaborba2836 it really depends on the era. Over time the Egyptian population became increasingly heterogenous. But I think the Afrocentrists who want to lay claim to Egyptian history are mainly only interested in the dynasties of the Pyramid Era, since that represnts the achievements they want to associate themselves with.

[@chriszec4588]

I'm a big fan of Milo's and I'm glad to see that you're actually doing scholarly debate here instead of silly KZbin drama. I'm definitely going to be checking out the rest of your channel after this video.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@WSWC_]

GOD I love constructive criticism and clean discussion

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@veraxiana9993]

Thank you for this one! Im sick with covid so I'm stuck in my bed for the next few days but this was so interesting it lifted my spirits a little 😊

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! Hope you're better soon.

[@RRRR-jr1gp]

Gotta say, the style of putting the absolute *tiniest* text in the bottom right while some massive pictures of pyramids occupy the foreground is a bit of a pain. Sometimes I'll tab in to read and I need to take out my glasses

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thanks for the comment. I wear bifocals myself, since I can't focus much beyond my nose, and with my bifocals I can read the text easily while viewing the video on my phone. I have changed the text size several times throughout my channel's existence. First people said the text was too large and took up too much of the screen, so I reduced it. Then people said it was too small, so I increased the size somewhat. Some people later said they didn't want to see too much text on screen, and wanted to see more of the bakcground because it was more interesting to them, so I tried to accommodate that too, as with this video. But unfortunately I can't please everyone. At present most people find the text legible, but I might try increasing the size yet again and see what happens.

[@nicholashurst780]

In a culture where taxes were paid in labor, it seems odd to equate those laborers with people who were enslaved for life. To me at least. I do think current, modern political context has led to people generally not viewing labor systems with as much nuance as they should be. Like we need a term for the tax-labor systems of ancient cultures that doesn't use the term slavery, if for no other reason than slavery is generally agreed to be a lifelong condition. Like, slave-labor and slavery shouldn't necessarily be assumed to exist on a venn diagram that's a circle.

[@veritasetcaritas]

In Egyptian culture corvee labor was in lieu of taxation, not a method of taxation. People normally paid their taxes in the regular way, through the produce of their farms. Corvee labor was occasionally raised for construction projects, and in these cases it was in lieu of taxation. But it was still a form of slavery for the reasons I cited, and the Egyptians themselves regarded it as such. This is not to equate corvee laborers with those enslaved for life; this video differenciates between those slaves and corvee laborers. But slavery was not necessarily a life long position in ancient Egypt, or even in North American plantation slavery. The length of time for which you are a slave can be one of the criteria defining you as a slave, but it is not a necessary criterion; you can be a temporary slave.

[@nicholashurst780]

@veritasetcaritas thank you for responding. I was entirely misinformed about the method of taxation in ancient Egypt and that recontextualizes well everything I thought I knew about the context . I was wrong. Thank you again for responding

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@nicholashurst780 thank you for your very gracious response.

[@bkylecannon]

Just because i don't see anyone mentioning it, I've mainly heard this claim in reference to Israelite slaves not actually being a thing in ancient Egypt. Might be causing some of the confusion

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes that's a common cause for confusion. The Bible never says anything about the Hebrews building pyramids.

[@Agemar-b7p]

Wasn't this myth started by literal free masons lol ​@@veritasetcaritas

[@RabblesTheBinx]

​​@@veritasetcaritas I think what they're talking about is the fact that the Israelites were indigenous to Canaan. There likely weren't Hebrew slaves, at all (at least, not in any significant numbers). The entire Exodus story is a myth. Also, you can blame Josephus (ironically, the guy who is responsible for us knowing Jesus was a real person) for that particular misconception about Jews and pyramids. He wasn't a very good historian.

[@Jessie_Helms]

_Is_ Milo an “amateur” archeologist? I know he went to school for it, and gets paid for making his content which includes going on-site for some stuff. That’s not me trying to fangirl or call out, I’m genuinely curious if that still counts as ameuter.

[@veritasetcaritas]

He is qualified, but doesn't hold a professional archaeological position; it's not his "profession". In one of his videos he says he even feels ambivalent about calling himself an archaeologist at all, since he doesn't do practical archaeology or engage in formal archaeological anlysis, or write papers, or attend conferences and symposia. Similarly, I have a degree in classics but I wouldn't call myself a professional classicist, since it's not my profession and I don't engage in it at a practical scholarly level.

[@Jessie_Helms]

@ ah okay, I understand. I did mean that as a sincere question cause I wasn’t sure

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@Jessie_Helms sure, no problem at all.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@veritasetcaritas clarification, the video where he has impostor syndrome over "not being a real archeologist" is his straight out of uni never been to the dig site professionally BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC. Iirc he visited digs since. It's just people keep quoting dude's impostor syndrome after just graduating as some sort of a gotcha.

[@andrewstine3533]

11:12 Slippery, The full text of the 13th amendment, section 1 is: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishent for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The fact that the amendment mentions slavery and involuntary servitude separately suggests that it's making a distinction between slavery and involuntary servitude, that they're both being outlawed but that they're not necessarily the same thing, which would suggest that prison labor might just be a form of the later and not the former. I can see arguments that prison labor should be classified under the rubric of 'slavery', but I don't think the wording of the 13th amendment is one of them.

[@veritasetcaritas]

US courts have historically treated slavery and involuntary servitude in the 13th Amendment as synonymous, not differentiated, and no court ruling formally treated them as distinct from each other. As a result, this is still a current legal interpretation. blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2021/06/convict-leasing-system/ action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-labor-prisons www.freedomunited.org/advocate/amendthe13th/ www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/24/us-prison-labor-workers-slavery-13th-amendment-constitution www.naacpldf.org/13th-amendment-emancipation/ See in particular this paper, which defines it specifically as "prison slavery". www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/slaves-state In fact a Supreme Court ruling in 1871 defined prisoners specifically as slaves of the state. “He has, as a consequence of his crime, not only forfeited his liberty, but all his personal rights except those which the law in its humanity accords to him. He is for the time being the slave of the state.” Ruffin v. Commonwealth, 62 Va. 790, 796 (1871). That is the historic understanding of that amendment. This was not re-interpreted until the late twentieth century. That re-interpretation was made specifically because nearly a century prisoners were defined as slaves with regard to the 13th Amendment. But more than that, there are still states in the US which justify prison slavery under the 13th Amendment, appealing to the historic interpretation.

[@andrewenderfrost8161]

One significant distinction was that they were not built by JEWISH slaves. Since he does a lot of videos about conspiracies I thought for sure that’s what he meant. If he was just mistaken I don’t mind so much because he is the type to correct himself.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, they were not built by Jewish slaves. But Milo said The Great Pyramid was built by like craftsmen and laborers. It was not an enslaved force", and both of these statements are wrong in their own way. However I am confident Milo will take on board what I've said and qualify his remarks in some way, even if he doesn't agree with me.

[@KasumiRINA]

I am not sure what level of antisemitism normalization we came to when it's normal to come a video not about Jews, which doesn't mention Jews, commenting on a video that wasn't about Jews in the first place, and posting YOU JEWS DIDN'T MAKE IT LALALALALALA 1488 unprompted. You could I dunno, buy a Tesla or something instead to voice your caps lock displeasure with Jewish people who never claimed being in the Old Kingdom?

[@Apotheosis01]

The US Department of State definition of slavery almost applies to all labor within a capitalist society. Psychological coercion and abuse of the legal process sounds a whole lot like what those in power do to keep the working class working, even if it is voluntary to some extent. The looming threat of not being able to afford necessities for life is what keeps us working in today's world.

[@connorgrynol9021]

While I don’t necessarily disagree, I think the two type are on two different levels. It feels wrong to call myself a slave when different types of slaves have it much worse. Like I’m trivializing their own experience. I’m sure they would give a lot to live in the society we live in. Not saying capitalism is good, but when compared to the Atlantic slave trade, it’s definitely preferable.

[@Apotheosis01]

@@connorgrynol9021 yeah for sure

[@stefanstankovic4781]

Not sure if this is the algorithm working its magic, but you are the 4th KZbinr in last 3 weeks which sirectly points out how Zahi Hawass is full of cow manure... Also, appearing in a Nova documentary is generally disqualifying since they only seem to favour pop-scientists (whatever that is).

[@stefanstankovic4781]

P.S. History For Granite would probably love to collaborate, they are very passionate about open scientific discussions.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Good to hear!

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@stefanstankovic4781 thank you, I will see if I can get in touch.

[@yerocb]

Fascinating. I had heard (not just from Milo) that they were "workers" and not slaves, but it was never in a way that looked at these nuances. History is complicated, and languages change. Thank you for breaking this down.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@four-en-tee]

Remind me to ask Veritas about the inspirational connections between the leviathan from the Book of Job, Lotan from the Baal Cycle, and Tiamat from Enūma Eliš before I make an unhinged joke at the expense of the canaanites in my next Mario 64 video. I promise that sentence makes more sense in context, lmao. Its basically just a set up for a Gilgamesh joke.

[@KasumiRINA]

YOU MONGREL

[@redtailarts101]

The scientific community in action! The only community where debate can be "hey I did a bunch of research and you're wrong" "oh cool awesome, thanks for the research, now I can have better knowledge, thank you for spreading the truth" instead of accusing one another of being a bad person.

[@veritasetcaritas]

If only more of history KZbin was like this.

[@gunpowdergelatine6358]

Super great video, so professional, very polite, very direct , +100% respect +100% aura, a little dry but that fits the desert

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@merrysleeps]

This video was super well-researched and intriguing! Please upload more if you can!!

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@blackflagsnroses6013]

What do you think of the historian channel Metatron?

[@fruitylerlups530]

anyone who falls for the "ancient greece and rome werent homo!" psy op is untrustworthy

[@veritasetcaritas]

Very patchy. Sometimes has good content, somtimes has very average content, sometimes has poor content. I would like to make a video responding to his video on the Shroud of Turin one day.

[@Darilon12]

Historian 😂 All I'm seeing from him these days are low effort reaction videos.

[@board-qu9iu]

@@Darilon12he is an historian. In terms of content, him doing reaction stuff nowadays has more to do with keeping up with KZbin than anything (and he is on the better end of reaction content though that’s not a high standard at all). Still kind of wished he would just turn back to less reaction based content though since that’s what he did a lot more back then .

[@board-qu9iu]

@@veritasetcaritaswould it be the new or old video he did on it?

[@D-Rv8iv]

Being a decent human and ethical worker. And having humility when presented with changing evidence.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, milo was very gracious.

[@Ostvalt]

It is the classic question of what is slavery? This is especially hard question if we are talking about times before human rights. As theologian this is interesting question when translating Bible. Is "servant" that was kidnapped in war a "slave"? If is, should "servant" always be translated as a "slave" or only when it is told to us that "servant" is employed implicitely against his will? Some translations solve this by using "serf" word and not "servant". In the end all of this is only a word play and playing around the real question. Would these people in history be considered slave labor in modern time? I think 99% of time big collective projects by societies, such as pyramids, had slave labor as their biggest work force. Simple thruth is that non-modern societies were built upon coersion by structure. Who who was strongest (be it in wealth or power) could force his will upon weaker. This will happen in all societies, if society doesn't have guaranteed rights to it's people.

[@clayxros576]

Not to mention that eras of history and societal norms play a strong role in how well-off "slaves" were at any given time. Slaves in Assyria were certainly in a very different situation than in Israel, and similarly the contract slavery in Rome had them different than the Wage Slaves we have today. The real defining feature seems to be more about "Does the person have upward mobility, affordably, in the system?" And in most, that's a hard no. Regardless of how "well" they're treated.

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@clayxros576 There are societies where legal slaves have more upwards mobility than other groups. The Southern USA's Racial slavery system was very unusual in attempting to create a permanent slave caste.

[@neoqwerty]

@@AC-dk4fp Not so much, it was pretty similar to Spartan helotry and current modern US prison labor (which TECHNICALLY provides remunerations, but in the vast majority of cases it's so little that the black market thrives and so does smuggling). I can't speak from full confidence since I'm not specializing in what's deemed "classical" antiquity and its forms of slavery were extremely poorly preserved (we only hear of it from what the elite classes deigned to write about it, and there's some heavy self-aggrandizing going on with at least the Greeks, and probably also with the Romans), but at least from context cues and from the one population we have the most data on (Sparta's helots), there was absolutely NO upward mobility for helots. And for early christianity, the mobility was generally kept to the male slaves, unless they converted into the religion, and this is assuming that there weren't greedy people going around the 7-year limit via loopholes in one way or another. (of note: early christian slavery was a definitive if slight improvement over Roman and Greek slavery, in that at least in that form of slavery you're not considered a human-shaped animal (this is the classical ancient Athenian opinion btw) but as a human currently in bondage. IIRC Romans were the one with the upward mobility system given how often their elite complained about the audacity of freedmen.)

[@Ostvalt]

@@neoqwerty Mostly agree, but releasing of slaves for good service was possible. Also, if the reason for slavery was debt, then you could buy youself out through work. This ofcourse happened mostly to high class slaves. Prisoner of war, that became slaves, were not that lucky and were most likely never released. Even if they were, what they could do in a foreign land with foreign language?

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@neoqwerty Sparta was also very unsual in its complete opposition to social mobility and its decline is a good example of why that sort of social organisation doesn't work in the long term.

[@bitsinakaleidoscope7809]

Commenting to give this video a boost in the algorithm, great job! I wish videos like this were the face of KZbin discourse, instead of "discourse" just being people yelling at each other in video form

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@Slywyn]

Can't wait for Milo's Googledebunkers video on this.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Well I don't think he even needs to respond, really.

[@Slywyn]

@@veritasetcaritas oh gosh it was meant as a sort of good-natured ribbing more than anything. "oho he's gonna do a googledebunk" kind of thing. I think you raised good points and he will probably just be like "you're right", so I doubt he'll do a 'real' response, aha

[@Slywyn]

@ConnorLonergan oh I just meant it as a good natured ribbing that's all, I don't think it's gonna be a ziba-type deal in the slightest

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@Slywyn oh yes I agree!

[@ItCameFromTheSkyBeLo]

@@veritasetcaritas I suspect he will. He's a pretty remarkable researcher, and after he sees the rest of your channel, and website.. I suspect he'll have plenty to say....

[@scienceexplains302]

Being fed, clothed, and sheltered has no bearing on the discussion. A property owner needs to maintain their property or they won’t have it. Feeding pyramid workers meat doesn’t mean the workers weren’t slaves. The Egyptians probably noticed that people who eat certain things have more energy and muscles for heavy labor.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yes, very true. I made that point in the video. However, the quality of food, shelter, and clothing provided is also a good indicator of the laborer's perceived social value. In the case of corvee laborers, they received low quality food befitting their perceived low social value. They were throwaway workers after all; it didn't matter that they had a high mortality rate, they were easily replaced.

[@scienceexplains302]

@ But replacing workers requires retraining. So there’s a financial hit to high turnover for anything other than simple brute work. On the other hand, where there’s a potential for rebellion, the master may want turnover.

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@scienceexplains302 replacing unskilled laborers doesn't require training though. That's why when a corvee laborer ran away or refused to work, the state was happy taking his wife and children instead, and getting them to work in his place.

[@Planag7]

Actually watched all of this and was very impressed of how you compared to contrast different sources on this. I definitely think he'll update his wording in the future. Got to keep the "Google debunkers" honest too xD

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@moccus3466]

Your opening introduction calls him an "amateur" archaeologist. Not sure how that's the case when he has a degree in the field. Feel free to correct me.

[@veritasetcaritas]

A degree means he is qualified, but to be a professional it needs to be his "profession". I have a degree in classics, but I am not a professional classicist; I don't hold a paid position in that role. Milo has previously made the comment that he even feels ambivalent calling himself an archaeologist since he doesn't do any fieldwork or original archaeological research, but I think calling him an amateur arcaheologist gives credit to his knowledge and qualifications, without exaggerating them.

[@robertfaucher3750]

Oh i had no idea of this. I guess ive just seen the " they were paid in beer and beef" meme too often

[@veritasetcaritas]

Yeah those memes aren't great.

[@robertfaucher3750]

@@veritasetcaritas it's great when they restore optimism and faith in humanity. It would also be great for them to be factually accurate

[@veritasetcaritas]

@@robertfaucher3750 unfortunately memes are mental junk food, so their ratio of facts to "feel good" is typically low.

[@Duragizer8775]

Now I remember that scene from _The Shawshank Redemption_ where the characters take a break from tarring the prison roof to enjoy a few brews.

[@robertfaucher3750]

@Duragizer8775 me and the boys sitting with our beers on a boat drifting down the Nile with the 20 ton granite block and the copper tools we used to do it with not a damn extraterrestrial having anything to do with it

[@kaselier1116]

You know a youtuber is legit when they praise scholarly critique of their own work. Also, great video I can't believe I've never heard this evidence before.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you so much! A lot of this information is found only in specialist publications which rarely enter the public view, so it's almost an archaeological exercise just to find it.

[@mathewkelly9968]

3:32 if thats your definintion of slavery then most people where and still remain slaves

[@Smittumi]

Lol, go on, I'll bite. What's your definition?

[@dftp]

Which would be correct. Wage work is a type of slavery as you require the wage for survival so it is indirectly coerced labor regardless of the fact that it is compensated. In theory, I believe, a labor system can only be non-coercive if it is currency-less and the purpose of productivity is based on people's material needs for survival and thriving instead of wealth accumulation and profit, because then work could be more easily and efficiently made voluntary.

[@MisterS.]

​@@dftphow are numerous people surviving or even living semi-normally without having a job? The whole point of slavery is that you cannot just decide not to do it and get directly punished if you decide to leave. You broadened the definition by a lot and said yourself that it wouldn't apply only to a theoretical utopia that will probably never happen, which means it encompasses basically all of human civilization's history. So what's the point of your definition, apart from evoking the political message of wage labour = bad?

[@MisterS.]

Wait, which people, apart from those who are literally in slavery right now, apply? Not being there voluntarily, not being free to leave, not getting paid and working under threates of direct violence seems very specific.

[@LyndsayW1194]

​@MisterS. Theres absolutely forced labor in prisons, depending on which country you are in.

[@tryptamine777]

Good video! Im a fan of Milo and I did always have a little bit of a personal disagreement with him saying that. I found it hard to actually prove myself though, and was surprised at how much it seemed that the scholarly consensus did agree with this idea.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you! I had much the same experience, and had to drill deep into the specialist literature in order to resolve this issue. It's a great example of the need to consult specialists on specific topics, since non-specialist academics might not be aware of the latest research.

[@chrisball3778]

You can debate the value of the Bible as an historical source, but it's probably not a coincidence that the Israelites remembered their time as Pharaonic subjects as a time of slavery. Employers have a general tendency towards exploiting their workers as much as they can get away with. An employer who thinks he's a living god would not be likely to be getting a heap of great reviews on Glassdoor. Seriously, it's great to get a clear-eyed, factual take on this subject. It seems like it's a classic example of yet another situation where an honest attempt to counter a myth (they were built by chattel slaves) has taken on a bunch of baggage via pop history and turned into its own new myth.

[@clayxros576]

Not to mention that, from the Israelite perspective, the labor that slaves carried out was FAR different between civilizations. In ancient Israel it was much more about chores and subsistence farming (normally), for a relatively tiny nation, which put a far smaller burden on each "servant". Meanwhile in Egypt, you had vast agriculture networks fuelling a growing Empire. With enough spare trade resources to fund decade-long vanity projects. Inherently, that puts "servants" in that civilization under much stricter and harsher conditions, more akin to an Industrial level. That is to say, comparisons of workload and expectation matter immensely regarding *what* a person considers slavery.

[@AC-dk4fp]

The 4th dynasty is a vastly different time to any potential historical background to the book of Exodus.

[@ishmamahmed9306]

Considering that Israelites and Judahites primarily descended from Canaanites, negative memories about the ancient Egyptians likely originated from Egyptian rule over Canaanites.

[@coffinmyface4237]

​@ishmamahmed9306 it wasnt really a rule, and more like a common cultural exchange, theres not really any evidence that caananites were ever ruled over or taken as a slave population by the egyptian empire, im sure there were caananite slaves, but i doubt it was in any particularly greater number than there were egyptian or nubian slaves. All evidence points to the biblical exodus being a complete and utter myth. While theres a good chance that slaves did help at least with the construction of the pyramids, id highly doubt a caananite exclusive workforce was assigned to the task.

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@ishmamahmed9306 Israel's 'descent' from any Bronze Age group (as categorised by archaelogists with no access to clear markers of self identity) is much less relevant to the Bible than the Iron Age Vassal relationship with Egypt.

[@AuriofTheHooligans]

My favourite thing about discussions surrounding Miniminuteman is that they're either very honest corrections made by people who simply want to spread the truth, or they're worth a good laugh. Haven't watched the full video, but it looks like it's gonna be the former.

[@veritasetcaritas]

This is the former. Milo responded very graciously to me.

[@leibnuuy]

I'll make a second comment if I make it through the full video, but my first impression is that flattening the distinction between direct slavery and other forms of controlling social contract isn't a useful angle to take. Hell, you could use the example of medieval serfs as a very stratified social order with little freedom of employment - and yet those guys had a ton of free time and constant feasts and festivals which is definitively a far cry from chattel slavery. And well, the old testament has *rules* for a chattel slavery system encoded in it, so pointing out that the egyptian system is very different to what Leviticus would describe for ownership and treatment of slaves is important, especially since those codes were used to inform the american system that's the first thing that comes to mind when we hear "slavery" today.

[@KasumiRINA]

Slavery in Athens were private property and slaves in Sparta were government-owned. The difference is like between Third Reich and USSR. It's still camps until you die.

[@iamafish7]

I was so concerned KZbin was trying to shove tin foil shit down my throat. I'm so glad this is a legitimate (and respectful) correction response.

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@lexxist]

thank you for the work you do. you are very fair and even generous, always honest. good work!

[@veritasetcaritas]

Thank you!

[@farkasmactavish]

Does the video just STOP at about 1:01:00 for anybody else no matter what?

[@veritasetcaritas]

It runs all the way to the end for me.