What If America Was Never Colonized? | Alternate History

What if North and South America were never colonized by Europe? Which of the indigenous tribes, nations, and civilizations will prove advanced enough to rise as the new superpowers of these continents?
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#AlternateHistory #MonsieurZ #NativeAmericans
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Website:
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Music Used: Overcome (Ugonna Onyekwe)

[@MonsieurDean]

As always, we'll have more of the BEST Alternate History on KZbin next Wednesday at 2:30pm EST. Don't miss it! Pick up a copy of our novel here: www.amazon.com/Am-Uncle-Sam-Dean-Mosley-ebook/dp/B07WNG95QH

[@fartman2165]

'What if Russia won the Crimean War?' is a video I'm surprised we haven't seen yet.

[@RemberReach]

What if Ross Perrot won the 1992 election What if Gary Johnson won the 2016 election What if the Britsh Seized/Bought Alaska from Russia

[@presidentandroid]

What will happen if the Atlantic slave trade never happened.

[@Lukdnuke_Narson]

When and where is the podcast gonna be.

[@charlesamerski3505]

I love the little detail of you changing the map in the rest of the world I would love to hear the story behind it

[@patriotdream6698]

The followup to this video is, "What if the Americas Discovered Europe?"

[@YazioTheMagnificent]

Sunset Invasion

[@multivitamin425]

It would have happened in 3000

[@ThorfinnSonofThors892]

I actually wrote a story about that.

[@argh2945]

Jedi Grand Master Spock Link?

[@yeeyee5057]

@@YazioTheMagnificent would've lost

[@chillylagarto7728]

As a Not well known indigenous civilization that I feel is sometimes overlooked is the Mapuche peoples in the Southern Tip of South America. Even in our History they resisted Spanish incursions for about 300 years, killing more Spanish Conquistadors there than the rest of the Americas combined, using tactics and weaponry the Spanish brought. Even managing to fight the Incas to a stalemate. However it is something to be said that outside of foreign invasion the different Mapuche tribes regularly engaged in war with each other, meaning that while they almost perpetually have experienced warriors. Many say that the Mapuche could be compared to the Germanic tribes during the time of the Roman Empire, being a people that is nearly impossible to submit but probably won't develop into a traditional Civilization.

[@leaaronsanchez]

@Chilly Lagarto the Mapuche people are Inca in origin, and are the the last Inca's to be subdued.

[@chillylagarto7728]

@@leaaronsanchez huh? They are Not Inca, they never were, they fought the Inca in a 3 day long battle (Battle of the Maule). Which ended in a stalemate where the Inca and Mapuche established a new border at the Maule River. Both Peoples also have completely different Languages and Religions. As well as different political systems, morals and technology. The Mapuche treated the Incas the same way they did the Spanish, a powerful foreign invader which could only be held back by uniting the different tribes.

[@leaaronsanchez]

@@chillylagarto7728 many historians debate the battle of Maule ever happened since the Inca was in retreat from incursions elsewhere and the Mapuche at the time unwillingness to commit greater resources into a fight. But the Mapuche people for a short time was considered a subgroup of the inca empire. Believes and trade differences caused the divide

[@chillylagarto7728]

@@leaaronsanchez it's understandable that historians would debate that, due to it being from the pre-Columbian era. But that doesn't change that their Language and Social structures were very different from each other. Mapuche language has been considered to be more similar to North American indigenous than their fellow Andeans (very strange I know but that's what they said). Culturally, the Mapuche couldn't comprehend Slavery and Classism (probably the biggest reason why they refused to assimilate with the Spanish, while for the Incas it was simply a new class at the Top). As such I can confidently say that the Mapuche and Inca were different cultures and civilizations only sharing the same cordillera of mountains. If you want, I could link you a source that goes into detail about the Mapuche culture and you can come to your own decisions.

[@leaaronsanchez]

@@chillylagarto7728 Many Mapuche historians debate it ever happened as well. Language differences wouldn't be much of a factor. My tribe is Algonquian, it didn't stop us from trading with the Cherokee who was Iroquoian and spoke a much different language, noted play a factor when some of them refused to be moved to Oklahoma and joined my tribe instead of moving. I've already seen links about the history and culture of the Mapuche, and I've met a few in person myself. And the oral history they told me before Francisco Pizarro is what I've already told you.

[@VologdaMapping]

Part 2 would be awesome❤️

[@andyc2608]

Ha! Was thinking the same thing

[@davestylehenry]

7

[@borkbork3804]

I’m sure he’s working on it

[@Raao1]

Yes, please!

[@Ttegegg]

I think it be interesting that instead of no contact. It be Europeans influencing naitives

[@RichardWagnerEnjoyer]

there must be a part 2, this was too good. Also important thing to note is that its theorized that the Mississippian mound builders after falling evolved into the 5 civilized tribes, the Choctaw, Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw and the Seminole. They could also make a good addition to this scenario. Perhaps one where they take the torch of the mound builders civilization and recreate it.

[@GD30.06]

💯💯💯

[@nikolajsteffensen6578]

now that is an interesting thing to consider.

[@burymycampaignatwoundedkne3395]

I agree. The Mississippian civilization and their later descendants have always fascinated me.

[@ericcloud1023]

This is why we need a part 2!!!!

[@survivingsam4404]

The north American tribes, having no concept of property, I believe, wouldn't evolve past hunter gatherers or semi nomadic farmers without influence from a more cultured nation. It is my belief that North America wouldn't see significant advancement well into the 19th century wich, I think we could all agree, they would have to be discovered by Europe. Due to the savage nature of South and central american tribes combined with climate and tropical diseases I think we would see the eventual collapse of all the greater tribes and an overall de-evolution into secluded tribes of stone age / agrarian tech. I know its just my opinion but I did stay at a holiday inn express once.

[@SofronPolitis]

On the other side of the ocean: - The potato is unknown, Europe, especially in the North, keeps relying on wheat for subsistence, its population grows more slowly and the continent's demographic centre remains the Mediterranean. - The European economy is not flooded with gold and silver, trade with India expands more slowly, the medieval aristocracy of land is not shaken that fast by an aristocracy of money. - Related to the above, Europe's lack of precious metals leads perhaps to an earlier European focus on gold-rich Eastern Africa. - The minds of the people are not troubled by weird animals, exotic people who live in a "state of nature", or news that the Earth was circumnavigated. Challenges to the biblical view of the world are weaker. - There is no American exile for religious dissidents. Radical protestants remain in Europe, facing repression, worsening the social instability caused by the Reformation, and making the states they live in more authoritarian as they have to keep the troublemakers down.

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

No one with an education believed that the earth was flat. The idea of people of the 15th century think the world was flat is a 19th century myth. Also even if the Europeans never conquered or settled the new world, the possessed the requisite sailing technology to be able to circumnavigate the world and would have done so sooner or latter.

[@shanemize3775]

Many good points and possibilities

[@coling3957]

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography exactly right. its a myth still repeated in bad hollywood movies up to 1992.. when a poor columbus movie was made repeating same nonsense.

[@coling3957]

the Separatists i presume you are referring to were very small in number - they all fitted on the Mayflower. the Reformation was well established in England and northern Europe. the Holy Roman Empire was fragmenting and would soon see the Thirty Years War ... the Protestant hegemony in England , Scotland and Wales was unassailable in the new Great Britain under King James from 1603. apart from a few ppl like them most were standard Protestant. there would be rumblings under Charles I , starting in Scotland, as it was feared he was under the influence of his catholic wife .. but the Civil War that emerged in the 1640's was still mostly political rather than a religious conflict. the Separatists on the Mayflower were wholly intolerant, its laughable to English ppl when Americans talk about them fleeing "oppression" when they left England to go to the English colony of Virginia.. only accidently ending up where they did .

[@fadhil2831]

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography yes also if europe do not find america somebody from asia will because people who live in eurasia and africa has strong maritime culture,maybe people who live in malay archipelago can because they have good sailing Technique and some of them travel from madagascar to borneo or some ethnic in that archipelago,makkasar people of sulawesi fishing in coast of darwin australi and most likely meet the native

[@nikolajsteffensen6578]

okay so hear me out. what. if this all happened in the same timeline as "what if byzantium survived"

[@ddunfuh9239]

According to the like you got from monsieur Z its cannon

[@alexanderrahl7034]

Byzantium is a cool nation. ....but it's survival at the hands of the Ottomans would have just meant it's decline and death at the hands of time. They never really were long for this world after a certain point

[@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise]

@@alexanderrahl7034 I feel as though a Byzantine alliance with Russia (due to common religion and interests in gaining middle eastern territory back form Islamic forces) would effectively guarantee their independence, even with Pan-Slavic movements. Not to mention Byzantine survival could mean places like Hungary and maybe even Poland would be markedly less catholic, and therefore more oriented to the Byzantines. I doubt they’d be a “power” Power, likely overshadowed by the Russians or something similar as time marched on, but they probably wouldn’t just “collapse” like the ottomans; especially with the immigration of the Türks not happening making Anatolia and Greece way more ethnically centralized around Greeks. They’d also likely be on the entente side in this world’s hypothetical WW1, given their distaste to Germans both through historical precedent and through border conflicts with Austria and the HRE. The Germans would likely support Slavic and Arab revolts/nations in Byzantine lands, while the Entente would use Byzantium as a staging ground for an invasion into the Austrian and Italian heartlands of Vienna and Rome, and given the assumption that Britain, France, Russia and Byzantium are all on the same side and that America/something similar joins the war in 1917, Byzantium gets the dub and therefore isn’t subjected to the Empire-Deconstruction of Woodrow Wilson or the Humiliation of David Lloyd George. The war likely goes Central powers: Germany Austria Italy Byzantine revolts Sweden And for the entente: Britain Russia France Byzantium Polish Revolts Portugal Let’s just say the Iroquois gets the Zimmermong telegram meant for the Cherokee-Creek Confed or something and join the war as well. So i’d say the Byzantines got a pretty good chance of sussing out a continuation well into the 21st century, even if only as a slightly larger, Constitutional Monarchy version of Greece. They could always collapse though, maybe in a scenario where the Russian civil war bleeds into a weakened Byzantium and completely wrecks the empire, resulting in a big clownshow of a powergrabfest as literally everyone stakes a claim at a part of the empire, while the rest of Europe watches on in abject terror and pity unable to muster any defense of Byzantine integrity like some sort of terror-dream due to WW1; kinda like China in the 20s. Basically, the 4th crusade, 1919 edition.

[@alexanderrahl7034]

@@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise foreign invasion was just the final nail in their coffin. Byzantium was all but destined to die. Even with Russia as a protector, the byzantines would still be bankrupt. They had no money to pay the troops at the time of the Ottoman invasion. I guess ot depends how far back you want to go to change history for the "Byzantium survived" thing to happen. But you'd have to go back a couple hundred years to guarantee it's life going on a little bit longer. But the further back you go, the more you need to predict going forward. It's not as simple as "Russia protects them, so they make it to the 20th century". There's a thousand years of history to account for there. Aside from their bankruptcy and constant and never ending feud with the Islamic nations, Byzantium's position was also untenable after a certain point. Colonization. They wouldn't have been wealthy enough to colonize, nor would they have been well off enough to try. *and* they would have to sail through the entire Mediterranean, out the straight of Gibraltar, and then into the Atlantic. The straight was controlled by the Spanish (a Catholic nation) and later, the British. The British and Russians were almost never on good terms and warred with eachother plenty. It's reasonable to assume the same would have been done towards the Byzantines. Especially since the crowning of the holy Roman emperor by the Pope in Italy, ended the relationship between Byzantium and the Latin Papacy. The Crusades were also a successive series of insults and damage to Byzantium as well. These religious grievances would have kept Byzantium at odds with much of Europe, who would have then had cause to block them from colonization efforts. By that time, the Byantines would have fallen. They would have become the sick men of Europe. Not as expansive as the ottomans of our timeline, not as resource affluent as the Russians, they would have been stuck in Greece, bordered by enemies to their east and west, virtually bankrupt and living in a world where everyone was getting richer without them. It's likely that they would have been consumed by their neighbors, piece by piece. A war likely would have been sparked by Europe to keep Constantinople out of Muslim hands, but they wouldn't have made it beyond that point. Another likely outcome would be that the Russians simply Annex them and their territory to prevent this from happening. Which would certainly be a.... very interesting scenario. It would change the course of history greatly to say the least. Russia has always hurt for access to the Atlantic and Mediterranean. The Bosphorus has stymied them for hundreds of years but with Byzantine lands under their control, they wouldn't have to worry about that. For that reason I think the most likely outcome is that Russia would Annex and consume Byzantium eventually.

[@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise]

@@alexanderrahl7034 Good points. I think in all likelihood, if we don’t change history too drastically, the byzantines would probably end up as a Russian client state/actual state. It’s been the dream of Russia to make an orthodox Constantinople since it fell to the Turks, and if the Russians in this timeline got anxious that the poor Byzantines couldn’t properly defend themselves they’d just take direct control to keep the region firmly under orthodoxy. A couple points of my own though: Colonization of the Americas will not really happen at the scale of our timeline, with all the gold and slavery and money and stuff until some sort of hypothetical “scramble for America”. Remember, this is a timeline where American colonization doesn’t really happen, so there’s no gold, no Spanish Armada, none of that. No real need to go beyond Gibraltar. There wouldn’t be too much of a wealth disparity without colonization, especially with the Silk Road spice routes (which would eventually become obsolete, but probably later in this time which means more money for longer) running right through Byzantium. So with that established, and with orthodox allies in the north and east (and technically south with Ethiopia, though I doubt they’d be able to go through Egypt or Arabia to access them), I think Byzantium could be a secondary power, like Bulgaria, under the sphere of Russia, rather than just being broke, outgunned and annexed. They’d have plenty of enemies, and probably many hurdles, but in this universe they could maybe manage it if they got a good leader at the caliber of Justinian (the great) or someone similarly fit to rule for a time. Any one country who possesses Anatolia as their home base is going to struggle, a lot, the closer you get to modern times, but without major colonization they could manage it. At least until the reformation, which would in this timeline likely provoke a major religious war between Orthodoxy, Protestantism and Catholicism, with an Islamic garnish. What may happen after that is up in the air, but if it ends in a draw/stalemate like most of these conflicts do or just doesn’t happen I think Byzantium will be almost out of the woods. Just the hurdle of islam left. Byzantium was notorious for being bad at fighting Islamic invaders, for good reason cause they sucked, but with the backing of the orthodox world I think they could go full fortress Anatolia and hold it. The rest of the empire (Egypt, Assyria) is probably never getting back into Greek hands, and will likely all be held by some Arabian sultan, but they wouldn’t just keel over and die. Greece would’ve only been marginally more poor than its neighbors, which granted ain’t great but it’s not the worst it could be in a world without American colonization. Again, I really don’t see a sort of “Byzantium numbah won! We exist for 2 million year and fucked all Islam!” Ending happening, but with some grit they could make it out bruised.

[@Mr.Flame2000]

What if islam never spread out of arabia, that would be an interesting timeline as it involves a lots of countries

[@endorsedvampire7581]

Check out 'what if the Byzantine empire survived?'.

[@royaltek]

algeria becomes truly french

[@theleftisevil8792]

Flame wish it was true

[@Mr.Flame2000]

@@theleftisevil8792 I want someone do do a video about this because of the eu4 mod Fall of Islam, there they maked a custom map if islam never spred out of arabia, you should take a look at it

[@kenetickups6146]

>The left Is evil cringe “my side is better cause muh feels”

[@shinkisaragi4369]

Me being of Tarascan ( Purepecha) Descent it feels good To know someone is acknowledging my culture and the Accomplishments my ancestors did because we are often over looked In the pages of precolonial Mexican history and Even in modern indigenous American literature

[@tsdobbi]

"The Aztecs were a loose alliance of subject city states" I don't think alot of people realize that is literally what Rome was until shortly before the transition from republic to empire. It really didn't change until the Social war of 91 BC. The "subject" cities in Italy wanted Roman citizenship. Ultimately they were granted their request and Italy was actually united as Roman territory. Prior to that, actual Roman territory really only consisted of Latium. So from a political point of view the Aztecs at this time were probably on par with late republic Rome.

[@Demicleas]

Main difference is that Romans didint steal there babies and sacrificed them constantly.

[@wo.959ironwolfcosplay7]

And rome had cavalry, iron armor and weapons, and an actual navy.

[@ema3941]

Incas did the same as The Aztecs and the Romans.

[@ultimatepotato192]

@@Demicleas Aztecs warriors didn't sacrifice women or children only the men

[@alexanderrahl7034]

You would have to look much, much deeper into both before you could make that claim. But historically speaking, Rome was just so crazy as a civilization. If you look at their history it's almost like fiction, the sheer amount of things they managed to pull off and the times they managed to survive where everyone else would have been expected to die lol

[@zionmolina3039]

Do , What if The Mongols conquered Japan.

[@doug814]

That would be a good episode.

[@khamulthewack4732]

^^^^^^

[@iona2225]

Zion Molina Aren’t they making a game about this alternate history?

[@zionmolina3039]

@@iona2225 I think so

[@xtreamnerdzxyz5612]

Yes

[@crimsonterror5795]

This is, by far, the best prediction I've ever seen about this subject.

[@lorriemiller6750]

Not all Native American tribes were Stone Age cultures at all some were silversmiths and had elaborate cultures in terms of religion rituals, mythologies etc. They were not all entirely primitive at all. Some built housing and they knew how to hunt , fish, farming, and they also could firm confederations and alliances. They had more than stone age abilities for the majority of Native American tribes.

[@darylobey8867]

The vikings tough some how to forge metals :) amd some tribes sailed across the seas some of the artic natives can also be found over seas in russias north

[@erincarr9411]

Also "Advancement" isn't all about how many resources can you reap from the land around you. Lot of their myths did and still talk about the balance of humans as part of nature. I think there is something to be said about how sustainable immediate return hunter-gather societies are

[@HandlesAreStupid2024]

@@erincarr9411 laughs in Druid

[@alexanderrahl7034]

They were still vastly technologically inferior compared to most other cultures of the time. At one point during the 8,000 - 3000ish BCE, they had copper tools and weapons. But that ended and they went back to stone. Saying they "weren't all stone age cultures" is incredibly broad of a statement and I think comes from a place that doesn't quite understand what "stone age culture" means. The majority of them used stone tools and weapons. While some might have had metalworking, it's rather unfair to lump mesoamerican cultures in with North American ones. The Mesoamerican cultures were more technologically advanced with permanent stone cities and even Aquaducts. Stone tools, stone weapons, and a reliance on hunter gathering makes you a stone age culture. Regardless of how cool your mythology or culture might be. It doesn't mean you're cavemen

[@amparocruz951]

@@darylobey8867 No, there have been found Many Many Metallurgy Artifacts found all throughout the Americas that date to Centuries before the Vikings, dating back to even Centuries BC

[@willhiggins9563]

The Natives to get the respect they deserve in history. This was a nice video.

[@xx-zp4mj]

ive always thought about how much cooler the world and especially America would be had colonisations hadnt lead to replacing the populations. like how fucking cool the cities, arts etc would look like over there the world would be a billion time culturally richer instead of like... europe’s sick even greedier lil sister

[@tameenhaque2285]

Do american natives even exist? I find it childish to give respect to people who you've successfully vanquished.

[@kryo5579]

Tameen Haque living in Washington state in the USA im Native American idk what ur on lol

[@thedog4499]

Pfft the natives genocide each other for land. This idea of a peaceful savage is a lie every time it is told. Sure some tribes that were not warlike were around. They were far and few in between and the ones that who go took over by other tribes

[@malalalalala2985]

@@xx-zp4mj They're still the majority in Central America and some South American countriea

[@benjamingrist6539]

I think the tribe known only as the Mound Builders would have been a huge player in this world as well. Archeological evidence suggests that they controlled the Mississippi River and its eastern subsidiaries, as well as huge swathes of the midwest and southern regions of what is now the US.

[@MonsieurDean]

Records indicate that they were in heavy decline even before European arrival. It's possible the tribes of the region could later come back together if pressures became higher, but given that we saw in our world, that probably wouldn't be the case.

[@benjamingrist6539]

Monsieur Z I was unaware of that. Thanks for the information, Monsieur President.

[@walterbell7193]

Harold Onowa kinda like how Egypt got started?

[@walterbell7193]

Harold Onowa Well, the Sahara Desert supposedly gets extremely heavy rain fall every 11k years give or take(im probably way off). After rain fall stops the Sahara stays green for like half a millennia. So, early Egyptian culture began forming some thousands of years after our most recent dry up of the Sarah. It makes sense, a large resourceful river surrounded by hostile deserts brings forth people of all sorts in close proximity, and ideas begin to exchange. I also heard of the East Balkans might’ve been the first cradle of civilization.

[@matthewcollins4764]

Benjamin Grist they are known as the plum bayou people

[@jackgreen3501]

THANK YOU for mentioning the Mississippians, even briefly you gave the most information I have seen about the civilization on any video like this. Seriously so important! Thank you!

[@Demicleas]

If you want more historical context head to the new Orleans museums you will find suprisingly large amount of history both about the acadians and the native tribes who lived there before.

[@EvilParagon4]

This could be a good scenario to mix with the Viking Permanent Settlement one. Since the Vikings have... what... 400 year headstart? Maybe the Iroquois don't exist, and horses flourish throughout the continent allowing for _mass_ empire building.

[@michaelhowze8198]

Ironically both horses and camels existed in ice age America. Unfortunately the Native Americans wiped them out.

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

@@michaelhowze8198 Mmm. Tasty megafauna.

[@johnnyd494]

Mixing this one with the Viking one, I don't think the Iroquois would necessarily cease to be a power. In fact the presence of the Vikings might even push their expansion in different ways. The Viking presence could push the Iroquois nations to unify earlier then in our timeline to face this new threat. With inevitable conflict it'd only be a matter of time before the Iroquois start to take in aspects of Viking culture. After seeing how OP horses are they'd definitely start stealing them and raising more (similarly livestock animals could have that same fate). Something Z didn't note in his Viking video but would be important here is that in our timeline a significant number of colonists purposely joined native cultures. Here, some Vikings would join the Iroquois nations (both voluntarily and by mourning wars) and this would greatly help them change parts of their civilization to better fight both the Vikings and other native nations. Disease is a big mystery factor here. I'd assume that the Vikings would bring over some diseases and these would reek havoc across the Indian nations, but I don't think they'd get the full gauntlet like they did in our timeline, possibly only facing a "more manageable" amount. The Iroquois would be hit, but they would also launch more mourning wars to recover their population. With horses and perhaps some level of metal weaponry the mourning wars would be easy pickings. Given the 500 year head start the Americas would have time to rebuild their populations, but now with some level of immunity amongst the population. Horses would continue to spread across the Americas, but I can't quite say how fast. It's possible horses reach the Meso-American empires by the traditional Euro discovery, but who knows if in enough numbers to truly make enough of a difference. I'm going to say that discovery is delayed a few centuries because it's more fun and it gives more time for horses to change the political landscape in Meso-America. Horses down there would drastically aid say the Tarascans in both conquest and in maintaining a centralized state (transportation, communication, construction, all that good stuff). Of course with all these changes starting around year 1000 the major native nations involved could be very different like you said. The changes I said happened with the Iroquois could happen to the nations to their east and north, giving them the advantage and THEM pushing on the Iroquois. Some diseases hitting Meso and South America could prevent the rise of the Aztecs and Inca, and allow other city states to take their place instead. It's a fun scenario to think about.

[@Teek-yp5wd]

I like this idea as an alternative history however i would argue that the Iroquois wouldn't cease to exist. Rather they may unify earlier essentially with the reasoning of "outsiders our encroaching on our land thus we must unify" or something similar to that leading to almost a rival power to the Vikings.

[@shoop91lee]

@@johnnyd494 that was a pleasure to read.

[@aragornii507]

I am from Michoacán. I appreciate covering the Tarascan state.

[@XavierbTM1221]

Im from Mexico City and i dont

[@aragornii507]

@@XavierbTM1221 ???

[@MrChristianDT]

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting cultures in southern Mexico & Central America that tend to just be completely ignored & forgotten. I don't know why. The Purepecha people themselves were really interesting. So we're the Tlaxcalan.

[@mReading]

@@XavierbTM1221 square up chilango

[@lithunoisan]

@@aragornii507They’re a salty Aztec.

[@icyguy2547]

What if the Ottoman Empire modernized and didn't collapse?

[@JagmasterGeneral12374]

Then they would have had not join ww1 or wait until Russia collapsed

[@panagiotismagos3649]

It depends on what you mean collapse: Do you want it in 1914 boarders, in post bulgarian independence boarders, in 1836 boarders, before even Greek and Serbian independence boarders or the owning half of Hungary boarders?

[@electricsquidxd3254]

They lasted longer than expected, and heavily influenced the turkic world

[@iamsheel]

I don't much different will happen in the world. Maybe less conflict in the middle east. Definitely no Israel too.

[@annoyed707]

@@panagiotismagos3649 Boarders use boards, or pay for 'room and board'. Borders separate things.

[@specialistwafer8873]

What if the Spartacist Uprising had succeeded?

[@annoyed707]

One less meme?

[@jirojhasuo2ndgrandcompany745]

LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOO

[@HaloisTight]

What if the Australian Megafauna of the Pliocene and the Pleistocene never went extinct?

[@iona2225]

There wouldn’t have just been the Emu War, and the other ones would have casualties.

[@diogomelo7897]

Then australia fauna would be even more cursed than it already is

[@argh2945]

Diogo melo A real life version of Eight Legged Freaks.

[@annoyed707]

Gojiraroo hops up and down on Tokyo!

[@Skiptondesigns]

Exactly...or a more proper title would be: "What if the Aborigines didn't cross the land bridge and invade and colonise Australia and didn't cause the beautiful Australian megafauna of the Pliocene and the Pleistocene to go extinct!" Yes, that's more like it. Listen up people...whenever humans have moved from place to place in the past, they have invaded and colonised in the same way. It's human nature. The past indigenous people are just as guilty. They colonised and invaded too. There were other living creatures inhabiting the land before they arrived. Human or non-human. It doesn't matter. They still INVADED.

[@wargriffin5]

So even if the new world wasn't colonized, you STILL have the foundations of a powerful federation of states forming east of the Mississippi, near the Great Lakes? Very interesting...

[@conlinbryant5037]

Its what happened in our timeline, its much bigger in this new one.

[@rudyschwab7709]

After hearing "unstable" and "instability" mentioned so many times in this video to describe the states of these tribes, I came to the conclusion their future was doomed long before Columbus and company showed up. The Europeans merely provided an alternate version to essentially the same ending.

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

@@rudyschwab7709 Though a fun video, it is biased by a modern perspective. I don't know this person personally, but I simply doubt he is a Native historian. We don't know how it would have ended up.

[@LauraPerez-ld4zt]

@@rudyschwab7709 Europeans are not our saviors, you seem to forget Europe also went through great conflict in its beginnings, and so did Asia. Conflict between civilizations is a natural occurrence, with or without colonization the Americas would have civilizations and find their way into development regardless of conflict, like Europe and Asia did.

[@conlinbryant5037]

These were also the second wave of civilizations to arise out of the Americas. Before Contact, there had only been the Mississippi and Olmec civilizations (as far as I know). The Old World had Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Egypt, he Minoans, the Cretians, the Ancient Greeks (not the classical Greeks) and countless other river valley civilizations that rose and fell. In fact, the Old World has a worse record when it comes to the number of failed civilizations.

[@expansionpack4485]

I like how you, without even knowing, made basically the same national divisions. The US, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and South America, the only one missing being a Brazilian counterpart.

[@MrZZ-py4pq]

What if the mongols found alaska?

[@bjorn3923]

I second this!!

[@ronjayrose9706]

They would've seen it as nothing but a cold icy desert and just ignore it

[@captainch6182]

Perhaps a khan decided that he wanted to move north into Siberia and conquer the tribes there. Maybe Kublai Khan decides to focus on improving the Mongol Navy to have more successful sea invasions as what happened with the Majapahit. Maybe a Mongol explorer finds Alaska and they trade with the natives enough horses to form a stable population and given enough time that population would spread across the continent and Native American cultures would have horses before Europeans arrived. This would lead to more expansive trade and in turn faster development of civilization.

[@BelcarrigFarm]

@@captainch6182 europeans colonisers: this is a horse Natives: we know lol

[@jasonreed7522]

@@BelcarrigFarm the great irony is that horses originally evolved in North America and crossed the Bering land bridge before going locally extinct in North America. Had this 1 extinction not happened then history would be very different.

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

What if the USS Pueblo Incident didn’t happen

[@last.atlantean]

everywhere I go... I see his face

[@HighFlyingOwlOfMinerva]

*USS Liberty

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

ᛗᛁᚾᛖᚱᚡᚨ'ᛋ ᛟᚹᛚ I’m talking about another incident that took place off the coast of my nation

[@angl6757]

What if Kim Jong Un became skinny?

[@michaelcooley3783]

@@HighFlyingOwlOfMinerva Based.

[@davidbrewer9030]

Robert Silverberg wrote a book titled "The Gate of Worlds" in which the Black Death killed almost 90% of Europe and the Ottomans eventually conquered most of the area. Therefore Europe was oriented (literally) to the East and never sent explorers to the West. In the story it describes the adventures of an Englishman in the Aztec Empire of the alternate 19th or 20th Century.

[@bigbo1764]

Imagine your empire’s size being limited because you haven’t discovered the wheel yet, this was made by Afro-Eurasian empire gang

[@alexanderrahl7034]

I never really knew how long it took humans to figure out the wheel, but apparently it was pretty f*cking long lol

[@amparocruz951]

They knew about the Wheel, they just had No use for it since they didn’t have many large Livestock to pull carts, they used wheels for toys and such.

[@bigbo1764]

@@amparocruz951 the wheel is still useful regardless of whether you have humans or livestock pulling the carts lol

[@halonnn6672]

@@bigbo1764 el terreno no era el adecuado simplemente era más facil caminar .

[@AdrianArmbruster]

The Incan space program would've been lit.

[@annoyed707]

Launching straight into equatorial orbit from a mountain facility?

[@glenncordova4027]

Llamas flying rockets.😲

[@girlbuu9403]

Quick appease the sun god so our star voyage will be fruitful! No not like those Aztec butchers, we shower our sacrifices in luxury for a full year before we... ... we really should have planned a bit more ahead than this.

[@WhatIsThatThingDoing]

Imagining a pyramid structure as a terminal for a space elevator here...

[@frankb3347]

I feel that you overlooked the potential of the Salish. Along with the extremely productive lands of California's Central valley I can easily see highly developed civilizations having establishing themselves along the West Coast.

[@shzarmai]

👍 agreed

[@ethanomcbride]

Idk why this doesn’t have 30M views I would watch a 100 video series on this topic, I think about it constantly.

[@wallaroo1295]

Same video idea - but slight change - more strict to the word "colonized." Columbus does his thing, but the Spanish, instead of sending the Conquistadors and Ministry - simply ignores Columbus' discovery as something new, but not worth exploring. Up until the 1600s when the English still come over to settle, but not as founders of a new land, but as immigrants to the Iroquois nation, and Europe trades with the North and South American indigenous... there never is an "America" settled by the English. At least not as we think of things today... That'd be a cool topic to discuss.

[@jasonreed7522]

So basically Columbus is slightly more stupid and doesn't find something valuable enough to impress any financers and Europe ignores America for awhile. The key resource the new world lacked was good domestication candidates, essentially Cows and Horses are instrumental in civilization building. So if in the proces Europe left behind some horses then i see the map becoming very interesting. (He definitely would have to pick winners and say someone in this group would form this nation so I'll just assume its the Cree, or Cherokee)

[@algernonilfracombe]

Hey, great video! As another idea- what if a male monarch was born in place of Queen Victoria, ensuring Britain and Hanover inherited the same ruler? How would this affect Anglo-German relations as the countries industrialised and Germany unified- to say nothing of the rest of Europe?

[@JW-do2wc]

What if FDR didn't die from his illness but lived through WWII and after WWII.

[@firemangan2731]

Then the cold war would’ve never happened as he was a bit chummy with the Soviets compare to Truman.

[@cicerobully]

Then he would have been elected again, and again, and again, and...

[@BelcarrigFarm]

@@cicerobully putin: are you challenging me?

[@kennymichaelalanya7134]

He was a war monger. You wouldn't want him living during the Castro Era

[@Porelorexeus]

This was great! I'd love to see a part two. There are already so many possibilities just from this though!

[@Lukdnuke_Narson]

When and where’s the podcast?

[@dfront1978]

What about the Moisca civilization of Colombia and Ecuador? Also, there are rumors of city states in the Amazon.

[@annoyed707]

Some of the cultures weren't expansionist or didn't quite fit the timeline.

[@MrGA555]

Remember that the European made contact with the Americas 3 times. Once in the 1400 in the Amazons, then the Aztecas, then the natives in the north. It’s not wild to think that the first contact completely wiped out the Natives via diseases. The Aztecas also met the same fate, losing about 80% of their population through small pox. By the time the English made contact in Virginia they were meeting a society that made it through 2 apocalyptic events, and then got stuck by another one…

[@simplymarshal1167]

so britan would still be the most hated super power?

[@andremanzaro]

No, probably Portugal

[@andremanzaro]

@@pogglethelesser-fx5bf Fair enough

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Britain was hated more by other Europeans than the natives tbh.

[@glenncordova4027]

What about the Huns, the Aztecs or the Islamic empires.

[@Carl-mx8uq]

​@@DrewPicklesTheDarkfacts

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

I'm not so sure how much I agree. This is a very European mind-set which I don't think works well for this. I'm 1/2 native so I am not shit-talking them, merely my conclusions from the history I know, but a combination of geography and drastic cultural differences would change a lot. The geographical differences (particularly the lack of domesticatable animals) would make development much harder, and the culture differences often resulted in less drive to change anyway. If you look at the most advanced American civilizations of the time, they are the ones that had access to domesticatable animals such as llamas, and had a very martial culture, something that had a lot of similarities to Europe, East Asia, and the Middle East. The North American natives hardly had these traits at all, and the South American ones were extremely mixed in regards to them, where as in Eurasia they were quite consistent across the continent(s). Simply put, the American natives did not have the need to rapidly develop like the natives of Eurasia did. So while I am sure development would of occurred, I think it would be at a drastically slower pace than Eurasia. It's impossible to look at a place like Europe, then the Americas, and say "Well in 100 years, Europe developed this much, so 100 years in the Americas would result in roughly the same amount of development". The big issue the natives faced with Europeans (outside of surface ones such as disease), was their lack of ability to rapidly adapt to the changing times, something Eurasian cultures, especially Europe, were better at. Just my 0.02$ though.

[@EmperorDixon]

Notification squad awwwww yeeeeeaaaah

[@tylermech66]

only issue i have with this is that the Mississippi cultures weren't really included. many historians attribute their collapse to the initial wave of disease from the Spanish discovering the americas, their societies being struck particularly hard by it, especially because of their vast trade connections and lack of political unity. so without vast die offs from disease you could definitely argue for the formation of a major rival to the Iroquois along the Mississippi. Even if they were in decline, that doesnt mean that new tribes and cities could not sprout up along the rivers. It could be compared to Mesopotamia and the citie-states that live on it, many rising to glory then dieing off, but the region generally being a center of civilization for centuries.

[@coleparker]

I would take issue with the disease factor for the Mississippian Cultures disappearances. I believe that much of it was gone prior to the arrival of the Spanish.

[@tylermech66]

@@coleparker It was disease from their arrival though, it just spread so quickly from their initial landings in the Caribbean and devastated the Mississippi culture well before they finally got around to exploring the mainland.

[@coleparker]

@@tylermech66 I am not totally disputing the disease factor, however, I would also include certain environmental factors as well, one example being resource depletion. Some of these Mississippian sites were supported not by any form of agriculture or systemic horticulture, but rather a reliance on R species and exploitation season harvesting of wild grasses and berries. In some cases the larger animals like deer and others were over exploited and moved on, and there is possibly that over fishing took place. However, that being said, has there been any forensic studies of the human remains found at some sites showing the affects of the diseases? I asked that because, I am not really a forensic anthropologist or bio-archaeologists as the British call them.

[@tylermech66]

@@coleparker disease is the common consensus.

[@coleparker]

@@tylermech66 As I said, I am not totally disagreeing with the disease hypothesis, but there be other factors as well. Common Consensus is not always the complete answer. As an example we can use Stonehenge in which the common consensus was that it was an astronomical calendar or was associated with Druid religion. We now have new data based on archaeological excavations that provide a much more complex picture for the site.

[@matthewbittenbender9191]

You might need a part two to include the Mississippian empire which had a mega city up to about 1500 A.D.. Also the Taino of the Caribbean were exceptional sailors and could have become the master of the western Atlantic if not for the Spanish. And the Apache were perhaps the fiercestd warriors in North America. They had large swathes of land and really benefitted with the introduction of the horse, but since the horse was not introduced in this lifetime their potential for empire status is questionable.

[@coleparker]

Are you sure about the 1500 AD date? Also, I agree with your assessment not only about Apaches but the rest of the Horse Cultures of the Plains, since they would not have existed with out the introduction of the Europeans.

[@matthewbittenbender9191]

@@coleparker You are correct. Apparently the city was abandoned sometime in the 14th century. My understanding of rhisnculture has improved since I posted this but thanks for the comment.

[@coleparker]

@@matthewbittenbender9191 Oh no problem at all. As a professional archaeologist myself, I have had a keen interest in the Mississippian cultures since I had first started my graduate studies in 1978. I was particularly interested in the Poverty Point site. Also may I add that Calusa civilization that was in Florida is also interesting case of a Chiefdom society.

[@JL-ti3us]

I love this style of civilisation developmental alt hist when you are working forward with civilisations from an earlier level of development. Do you think that building on previous videos and going further forward in history is feasible or does it become fictitious to try and predict certain changing events beyond established historical trends?

[@MonsieurDean]

The issue does become delving too far into fiction, it was difficult as it was to go this far while keeping the majority of the video educational. which is something I really strive for, to teach while entertaining. We'd not only need to proceed forward with our developed empires, but understand how their underdeveloped neighbors would react and develop on their own, which requires a heavy delving into fiction alone, but there's also the fact we don't have very detailed records on the natives to speculate very deeply, plus we'd need to factor in natural events which ought still occur. I often say that I could continue my scenarios infinitely if they were, say, a novel or tv series, but people, civilizations, and interactions would need to, in most part, be made up at that point.

[@robertodevries3738]

One fact Alaska did belong to Russia, they would have gone more south.. So Russia would have colonized the continent.

[@wo.959ironwolfcosplay7]

Yep.

[@dragontdc]

What if the Native Americans got along well with the Norse settlers in Vinland and learned ironworking from them? The Norse colony may have still failed, but I bet there would have been quite a different welcome for the Spanish.

[@annoyed707]

That depends on the speed of technology diffusion through trade networks. The Norse settlements ended a few centuries ahead of the Spanish arrival. Perhaps enough time for iron working to spread, but that depends on how valuable it is to people living in the times.

[@wo.959ironwolfcosplay7]

Doesn't matter in the long run. Iron weapons and armor cannot compete with steel. The Spanish will still have crossbows, cannons, pikes, guns, cavalry, ect. Not to mention the fact that the Spanish army is very use to war by that point.

[@K9TheFirst1]

Monsieur Z, could you do a follow-up to this showing what would be going on in a Europe that doesn't discover the Americas? Most videos on this topic only cover the natives, but I don't think I have seen anyone cover the Old World. These folks are still dealing with growing populations with shrinking available land, with the Ottomans being an economic obstacle to the luxury goods of Asia. I would imagine that Spain would cross the straight and conquer North Africa for a start, and the HRE and Italian states might start looking at directly fighting the Turks. Portugal has circumnavigated Africa, to Venice and Genoa are looking at losing their trade monopoly if they don't do something to break the Ottomans. And with that going on, the Ottomans might find it harder to hold onto the Balkans if the locals start rebelling.

[@TheAnon03]

The Inca civilisation may not be as strong over time as you think, they had some weird inheritance laws that made keeping the resources flowing harder. That is to say that the rich more or less kept everything even after they died. In time that may have caused problems.

[@barticsebastian3756]

What if European empires didn t colonize anything

[@bjorn3923]

TheDankKaiser 1871 they would be a lot poorer but it is doubtful any outside entity other than Maybe Islam would conquer the whole Europe. Only parts would fall under foreign rule. That or Europe would have a backwards civilization.

[@TheSteveRobinson]

Then we would still be in the iron Age.

[@miguelpadeiro762]

@@TheSteveRobinson You do realize European colonialism started after the Renaissance in the 15th century, right?

[@TheSteveRobinson]

@@miguelpadeiro762 I would say Greece, Carthage and Rome all had colonies long before the Renaissance.

[@miguelpadeiro762]

@@TheSteveRobinson Yeah that's true, I just thought OP meant European colonialism as in the overseas global empires

[@SonicBoone56]

Great video. Never knew the Tarascan Empire existed. Wonder why they're rarely brought up, seeing as they were one of the few nations to not only succeed in defending against the Aztecs, but also remain mostly stable while having a more "developed" society and culture.

[@emen_98]

They are better known as the purepecha tribe

[@adamnesico]

Because Mexico wants to destroy the identity of tge natives not related to the capitol, so they won’t ask for independence.

[@wolfram07]

One of your most amazing videos ever! Part 2 please!

[@WillTheForests]

Z has the best alt hist by far out of any channel!!!

[@manualfein9936]

Good topic

[@manualfein9936]

@Will DeMarco cheers boi

[@emperorscoubs2405]

What if china colonised eastern africa

[@annoyed707]

@@achubbs8641 I just watched a video of African kids being taught Chinese wushu, with one girl speaking in Chinese, set to Chinese music. The kids are athletic and that's good, but it's just a different colonizer.

[@malalalalala2985]

@@annoyed707 It's not. It's being done peacefully. Nothing like European colonization

[@FOAB-Carlos]

@@malalalalala2985 . But they're gonna end up being oppressed lol.

[@malalalalala2985]

@@FOAB-Carlos Nope lol China built high speed rail in Africa. China ain't like Europeans. Cope

[@FOAB-Carlos]

@@malalalalala2985 . Oh, I would expect them to be oppressive due to ther history. (Tianamen square massacre) well then, that's interesting to know.

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

A Purepecha Empire that survived would be amazing

[@Germanicnoble]

Would you please do a video like this on Australia and New Zealand?

[@theskv21]

“The state is also known as the Tarascan Empire, an exonym often considered pejorative by the Purépecha people.”

[@stevenscott8015]

Understanding history and sociology, the title makes me laugh. The content is just plot armour.

[@josephpeters7627]

It says "alternate".

[@stevenscott8015]

@@josephpeters7627 Which means there is absolutely no discussion allowed. Like I said, plot armour.

[@josephpeters7627]

@@stevenscott8015 That how you perceive a lot of these alternate history videos? Or am I just not interpreting this right?

[@stevenscott8015]

@@josephpeters7627 "A lot" of them yes. A person can have a great alternate history topic and support their conclusions with facts. Example: "How would WW II have played out if Germany never declared war on the U.S. following Pearl Harbor?" It's a one decision topic where a person can really focus on the decision, the mistake it was, the idea/hope that was sought and then proceed with how it would have changed history by using facts. Then you or I could come behind and join in and offer feedback where we can deliberate if the conclusion was correct or where mistakes were made. Citing facts and sources would only make the alternate history concept more reliable and if nothing else help educate. Instead, we get some ridiculous concept that you can't even sniff with criticism because it's so far fetched that it is lacking any basis in what we call reality. Plot Armour.

[@Cyricist001]

2021 Native Americans sail east and discover Europe. Native American gulps and asks "How does metal float?" as he stares at the huge steel ships pointing their guns at the American crossbowmen.

[@achistorian6978]

What if The Warsaw Uprising succeeded ?

[@Claysif]

This man needs to redo this entire video

[@dragoninthewest1]

Please do: What if the American Revolution never happened? (Not what if the colonists lost) What if the USSR also put a man on the Moon? What if Oda Nobunaga survived his assassins?

[@girlbuu9403]

America becomes more like Canada, French Revolution might not happen, if a world war happens Britain stomps unless it is up against basically everyone else at which point what dumbass got them in that situation? Nothing, honestly. He might replace Tokugawa but that would have been a hard sell for him with or without a bad case of the deads.

[@KingPancat]

I love how the Mayans are essentially just the Holy Roman Empire at this point

[@last.atlantean]

Ah yes, very interesting and Educative, I think the Inca given enough time will come to resemble a Soviet Union like state, the Mayans are like the Greek, divided and contained to a small region yet prosperous, the Iroquois like Mongols, and the other two China and Rome respectively

[@sizanogreen9900]

Ah yes, the modern inca, the theocratic, imperialist soviet union of our time that actually kinda works.

[@stevenironside4648]

I would say the aztecs and thier western enemies are more like the rome and carthage of this continent

[@VVeremoose]

Why do you have to shoehorn them into existing Old World tropes?

[@last.atlantean]

@@VVeremoose well why not? Its my opinion after all, you can either disagree or agree :P

[@VVeremoose]

@@last.atlantean because it's disrespectful and bad historical interpretation

[@jerryrodriguez264]

You should've did The Taino's. They in a sense were like the Phoenicians in The Mediterranean, trading amongst Empires and have cities on the Greater Antillas islands in the Caribbean, An United Kingdom of islands

[@orionsbonk]

yes!! while watching the video i kept thinking, "what about the taino??" surely the maya would've formed a relationship with the taino or vice versa. from there, the maya (or a federation like you posited) plausibly may have explored the gulf and settled on the gulf coast for resources!

[@ICriticX3]

The Inca did have metallurgy, but it was common on the northern coast of peru, the area that was once the Chimuan Empire.

[@Gogurtbump]

I was super happy to see the Wabana'ki Confederacy both mentioned and not just assimilated into the Iroquois

[@bigbo1764]

There is also pretty heavy evidence that the Polynesians have known about South America for quite a while, also once the Japanese come in contact with the mongols and realize that they can’t just hide in their island forever, it is likely that they will either taking the subpolar or North Pacific current and ending up in what is cascadia, which would be kind of a good alt history scenario now that I think about it, where the Japanese focus their efforts on the Americas instead of mainland Asia.

[@MS-hn2cb]

As a native part of the Iroquois confederacy(Onondaga) I ask myself all the time what life would’ve (should’ve) been like if things hadn’t turned out the way they have with colonization n now I can some what see an actual visualization n for that I love your video .

[@kkall8477]

Would’ve - not should’ve. The world is the way it is. To hope for an alternative timeline is only doing yourself and your people a disservice. Note; I am African - not European or American. There is no hostility meant in my comment. I just want to emphasise that there’s a danger wishing for something that isn’t and will likely never be.

[@ausomtiger]

A "What if?" I've pondered would be if a benevolent and knowledgeable European group making it to the Americas and warning and preparing the various native cultures a century or two before the first colonists arrived. Some would believe, others would not. I think it would make things interesting.

[@JuanMendoza-qd5lm]

You dont know what truly took place when Europeans arrived... Do you. It sounds like your concept of history is based on Woke Revisionism.

[@ausomtiger]

@@JuanMendoza-qd5lm Of course I know what happened. Preventing those atrocities might have led to some interesting developments. You seem to have totally missed my point.

[@JuanMendoza-qd5lm]

@@ausomtiger I think it only reasonable to assume that in such a case the atrocities committed by tribal warfare would have only escalated to the point of multiple other tribes being wiped off the face of the Earth.. Well more than there already was. Are you under the assumption atrocities were not already being committed amongst the various Native Americans?

[@ausomtiger]

@@JuanMendoza-qd5lm I am aware that tribal warfare and many atrocities were committed in the Americas prior to the arrival of the Europeans. That is the human story everywhere. My thesis or question would be could they unite against an existential external threat? It is a thought experiment. I haven't fully researched the state of say the Aztec empire prior to the arrival of the conquistadors nor the state of warfare in North America prior to the voyages of Columbus. That would be the ground work necessary to give any credence to what is a "what if" scenario to start with.

[@JuanMendoza-qd5lm]

@@ausomtiger I see. Thats was honestly my mistake then and I apologize because I subconsciously interpreted your point as being a swipe at the White race- which seems to be the only societally acceptable form of racism at the moment. And for thought, I often think of how North Korea and South Korea split into 2 diametrically opposed societies and feel the Native Americans would have all gone the same route. Probably with multiple tribes forming alliances to create a nation that would probably look similar to the European Union at 1 portion. And then a few others creating a Communist hell hole in the other portion. Perhaps even the Native Mexicans may have joined if the Spaniards were repelled as well. But I wouldnt ever forsee a time where the scars of the tribal past wouldnt lead to current disputes over territory and resources again. The whole continent may constantly always have the threat of invasion similar to South Korea. Polytheism would also likely abound and human sacrifice may have never been seen as wrong as Judeo-Christian values would not have been shared and culturally accepted. I mean tribes to this day still exist that maintain these practices in Africa. The entirety of the society would look completely different, all the way down to morality, laws, medicine. If the tribes would never create alliances then the region might end up looking politically similar to the Middle East or Africa. Highly volatile with a never ending history of civil and tribal war. Its an interesting rabbit hole. Good concept man, worth writing a story about lol.

[@davidporter9445]

Wishing anyone and everyone a Peaceful and Powerful Indigenous Peoples' Day !

[@zyanego3170]

A perfect world don't exi...

[@CMDRScotty]

The missing part of their development is the lack of horses. Horses are necessary for later stages of development and trade. The western hemisphere would have developed a lot fast if horses hadn't gone extinct.

[@SEAZNDragon]

So European colonization gets replaced by Native tribes colonizing each other

[@wilczalilas1385]

thunder key TOMOKO

[@fredjohnson9833]

I want to timeline where Horses never go extinct in North America. The Souix, Apache, Comanche and other similar societies could have been absolutely badass given a head start of a few centuries or more

[@Wi-Fi-El]

What if the bronze age collapse didn't happen?

[@crimsonterror5795]

I've come to think that the Iroquois wouldn't have ever gotten as large as they did in our own timeline, since Smallpox wouldn't have happened and thus the neighborhood would still be filled with larger, stronger confederations and petty kingdoms that would've been able to take a punch or 2 that they wouldn't have been able to in the Beaver wars. Plus, they didn't have some other tools large scale empires usually have, like a writing system or permanent cities.

[@panniguin862]

the Iroquois also wouldn't be getting guns from the British (most likely)

[@legado804]

What if the whole american continent fell under Spanish control?

[@monarchblue4280]

That would be very interesting.

[@DerpDerp3001]

The Americans would be speaking Spanish.

[@bearsausage8599]

we would be spanish speakers, the spanish civil war, ww2, and world war 1 and napoleonic wars would be different. but there wouldve probably been an american revolution where the usa might get most of the americas and we would be a big empire

[@bearsausage8599]

i would be making a better grade.

[@casanovaluis5996]

Northamerica would be as poor as the South

[@sandrayoung9098]

We are still here today and we just got bigger and better now

[@rexmundi3108]

Very little would have changed.The Aztecs can be compared to some Old World societies 3000-6000 years ago, most other groups were Stone Age hunter gatherers. The great civilizations of the south with no wheel, no draught animals not even into the bronze age, would likely have not advanced much further in the past 500 years, the others even less.

[@MonsieurDean]

Fair observation, we ought also consider the tremendous disconnect between the rest of the advancing world; Africa, for instance, at least saw something of a technological pollination from European and Asian ventures into the continent's outer regions, and yet the impact of that was still limited until later colonization. This advantage of proximity is totally absent for the New World, especially since were assuming it goes undiscovered.

[@zedono1391]

America in the olden days was one big squid game center. Every tribe were fighting each other and the new kid on the block showed up and was beating everyone like hell.

[@alaluv9505]

What if the dodo never got extinct ? (I'm sure it'll be the most interesting video ever!)

[@kerbaldino2350]

Tarascans were the coolest guys! I need to know more

[@xmaniac99]

You forget to include the great civilizations of the amazon basin, remember in the 1500 there where large urbanized settlements in the Amazon, both according to historical records and modern archeological discoveries.

[@mondaysinsanity8193]

Yeah were learning the americas had alot more "advanced civilization " then we thought

[@SuperSongbird21]

The big thing is, as you say, Europe would probably still find the Americans (maybe just a couple of centuries later, the 16th or 17th maybe). Given that, as you mention, the American empires would be less likely to have dissident subjects and the Tarascans would potentially have some degree of industrialisation due to their metallurgy (no firearms of course, but metal weapons of some kind), would the Europeans be less inclined to fight and instead establish more peaceful connections with the Americas, or would it be, to quote Kung Fu Panda, "Finally, a worthy opponent! Our battle will be LEGENDARY!"

[@leonardocontin937]

The problem is that diseases would still be carried It doesn't matter if the European (or the Asians) had invaded the Americas in the 1st Century AD, in the 1000, in the 1500 or in the 2021. In the older continents we have immunities that they wouldn't have, because those are diseases that we got from our cattle, and thanks to the fact that goods and people moved between Europe, Africa (at least the northern part) and Asia since the dawn of time, those immunities are kind of shared.

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

What if the General Sherman Incident didn’t happen?

[@chantlerweatherspoon5273]

For starters, Korean isolationism would probably still be a thing. The Korean Expedition would not have happened, which would probably lessen relations between the U.S. and Korea, but just by a bit. The U.S. would probably help Korea before it gets annexed by Japan, which might happen. Korea stays unified. During the Korean War, the U.S. does not volunteer, due to the fact that Korea was pretty unknown to them, and the fact that Korea wasn't of any interest to them. Korea still gets split and the rest is like OTL.

[@silencemeviolateme6076]

Korea would have still been annexed by Japan and liberated by the United States along with china during WWII.

[@GCdevine1]

This is awesome. You should do a What if The Tulsa Massacre Never Happen?

[@silencemeviolateme6076]

One event wouldn't have changed much. There were several successful black communities. Tulsa was just recently used to sell in the press. There are hundreds of stories just like it.

[@AlmaMariaRinasz]

Any other Michoacános here like: the People are called Purepecha 🙄 tarasaca is what the Spanish called them….

[@fredreichkarr1854]

The natives would be struck trying to get into the Bronze Age even up to the 2000’s.

[@girlbuu9403]

The Inca were in an early bronze age. All the other natives except really backwards ones like the ones in the Amazon Basin and upper Great Plains understood basic copper, silver and gold smithing. It is why when Columbus saw the Caribbean Islanders with all that gold jewelry he thought he hit the mother lode.

[@ffejpsycho]

What!?... they are one the factors leading to the overall lack of knowledge regarding Native American peoples... really?? Wow!! Of all the possibilities, I must admit... I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

[@lorriemiller6750]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition our chief element is surprise. Lol you can look up the rest of it lol

[@PhilipJFry-qh2jg]

I just gotta ask as it's been on my mind for the last year or so, but why are your maps always so large in scale? Couldn't you just zoom in on the Americas, the portions relevant to what you're talking about? (See 10:22)

[@billc.4584]

Very nice. I hope you do a follow-up on this particular hypothesis. Looked like the Iroquois were starting to hem in the Sioux. What might their interaction be with the nomadic peoples of the Plains? How do you think Mexico and Central America evolved? Like I said, nice job. Thanks.

[@callahan1237]

Can u re upload ww2 stalemate part 4 pleas I want to finish the series

[@AtaMarKat]

* Happy Injun Noises *

[@franciscoaraujo6624]

What is an Injun

[@AtaMarKat]

@@franciscoaraujo6624 corruption of the word Indian.

[@franciscoaraujo6624]

@@AtaMarKat Ahh I see. I always had a problem with the word "indian" since, well, native americans are obviously not from india. wasnt this settled 400 years ago lol

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

@@franciscoaraujo6624 You might want to look up who the 'Indian Act' refers to. I'll give you a hint, it's not the people of Hindustan. Yes, the term is confusing and inaccurate. It's also been a long-standing part of some people identities for their entire life and they don't need lectured by other people about how to correctly identify themselves. Obviously it's not something that all indigenous Americans agree on either.

[@shawnbellville6978]

I enjoyed this immensely and hope a part 2 happens.

[@Caged_Viking]

The Inca and Aztecs had developed metal weaponry, the Aztecs made axes out of bronze, as obsidian, the material most of their tools were made of, was too brittle to use, and the Inca used bronze and copper for almost all their tools and weapons by the time the Spanish arrived

[@MonsieurDean]

What I primarily found was that the Aztec were capable of softening and shaping metal to a small degree, but failed to develop metallurgy in full, their bronze weapons coming from outside sources; at the same time preferred obsidian because it could be more easily sharpened. Compared to their neighbors, Aztec metal-work was quite primitive. The Inca did come further along, but it's important to note that metal was relegated to use for ceremonial purposes, and for primary use by the elite, suggesting such weapons were seen as luxury items, not for use by the whole army. Additionally, metals were often horded, not only by living elites, but by those entombed with their possessions as well (which caused some problems for the early economy as well).

[@Caged_Viking]

@@MonsieurDean This I did not know. Thanks for the correction!

[@Max-nt5zs]

What about the Powhatan? Or am I just a silly Virginian who learned about them in history class, my understanding is that they had unified most of Virginia although they really only had villages and not really empire building.

[@MonsieurDean]

If I recall, the Powhatan fall under the Algonquian linguistic group. If you observe the later expansion of the Wabanaki Confederation down to Virginia, I likely did have the Powhatans in mind as successful enough repel Iroquois incursions, though not sophisticated enough to form a larger power all on their own.

[@elliotblomquist6078]

Watching videos like this makes me realize that no one really know anything about first Nations culture 😔 Cha!

[@Skoden_lures]

Isn't it sad.

[@TheBigJoshyShow]

SOOo good!! Loved your research!!

[@aa-to6ws]

I wish we could have helped the Americas to develop as their own states instead of taking away that unique right and opportunity.

[@belalabusultan5911]

the similarities to old world empires could help in predicting the future of these empires. the Iroquois built their empire around a river, just like ancient Egypt. the Mayans city states and sea-faring trade building new settlements, is similar to Phoenicians and Greeks. the Inca and a very large empire, tho it would be more similar to China than Rome. and the Thraxians would be the new Persia, assimilated puppet states and such... the thing here is, while most of the old world epmires were centered around the Mediterranean sea, the Gulf of Mexico would be their main sea. if the empires hit a massive population spike to unhealthy levels, and THEN Europeans discover them, the old world diseases would bring their numbers down to healthy levels, so by the time Eurpeans start sending troops, the American empires would have healed, started using horses and other domesticated animals, and own a large amount of guns. instead of colonization, they would act more like Africa which proved difficult to conquer, so they would instead sell local resources like fur and tobacco to buy old world goods like guns and other inventions, the rapid growth of their military power would bring them many slaves from conquered tribe, who can then be sold for more goods. next there would be Christian missionaries and Muslim clerks trying to spread their religions there, with some luck, even Hindu and Buddhist monks would try convertin them, turning the place into a field of religious expansion. an early form of zionism could bring many Jews to the new world to establish an alternative version of Israel, putting yet a 5th religion in the region. and that's where I am going to leave things, it's hard to predict these empires now that we have Muslim Inca and Christian Iroquois fighting against a Hindu Mayan confederation to establish a Jewish state in the old lands of the Aztecs....