Mixing Loud with CTZ - Ep. 17 - Should you HPF the sub region? (Low end control Pt. 2)

[@zungurelli]

ive made more progress in two months with your advice than in almost two years of random mixing videos, thank you

[@Baphometrix]

I love hearing stories like this. This is why I put in the effort. I thrashed hard on all these "walls" myself and am trying to save other folks the same pain and frustration.

[@DracoPendragon]

I 100% agree. Been trying to learn mixing for over 10 years and his technique is repeatable every time. I've unknowingly been doing clip to zero on my own for so long on my own, but he really made it into a formula that works all the time. Now i'm not just guessing or accidentally getting good mixes.

[@chriswftdj]

Yeah love the densely packed videos.

[@z-boss]

Can't thank you enough for clarifying so many myths and conflicting points other youtube "experts" declare to be the only right solutions for every mix without having any technical knowledge. Thank you! 🙏🙏

[@Fabermorrow]

Baphy I am revisting these videos just to keep my memory jogged on all of this.. I cannot tell you enough how much you have helped me with my mixing and mastering.. Before you I felt extremely lost and had little direction.. But I truly feel I am at a relatively high level of both now and it makes me feel comfortable making the music I love and that is priceless. I also wanna say that from finding more about you the more I love about you! Ofcourse you support breadtube, ofcourse you are aligned with me politically etc, it just makes sense to me as you are so intelligent haha.. Sending love wherever you are in the world and thank you for putting so much time and effort into these.. again it has changed my life in such a special way and i truly truly appreciate that. THANK YOU, love - Faber

[@809rdl]

THANK YOU! I am currently at Episode 14 of this series and just came here to tell you that the CTZ method had help me improve a LOT my work. I work faster now, my balance is better, my mix bus is not a guess anymore. I am still learning with awe and hunger this method, but just until today; I know this is changing my work, so do my life. Thank you A LOT This is an invaluable contribution and I will tell you this 100x more times! Thanks

[@OfficialADONISMusic-bv3qe]

Baphy, I wouldn't give a damn if you were an alien.... I love you, man! We need people like you, seriously. I have not found ANYONE on youtube that breaks it down like you. Keep up the GREAT work you are doing. Do you have a patron? Because I will support this channel. Much love all the way from alexandria, Louisiana.

[@Baphometrix]

I appreciate the thought, but I don't monetize. Just spread the word!

[@OfficialADONISMusic-bv3qe]

@@Baphometrix I surely will. Do you do one on one sessions?

[@Trentcast]

I’m part of Noisias patreon and they’ve talked about this at great length in some of their videos. One thing to be aware of when using steep slopes is the resonant boost that occurs at the cutoff frequency, but they use this to their advantage to reshape the tonality of their kick drums a lot of the time. They’ve also used HPF filters in natural phase mode on the master. Thijs’s track Unmoved Mover has a tight 48db/Oct slope at 10hz on the master. They look at EQ in a really interesting way and at the end of the day if it sounds good, it is good. I personally love to use non-linear phase HPF filters on my kick and sub to fit them in the mix. If the low end stretches from pre-ringing, just envelope it afterwards. And if the phase is that noticeable of an issue, flip the phase after. Another really good use for setting a HPF filter on your kick/drums bus is the creative effective of filter sweeping without inherently ruining the phase when you bypass the filter. You just instead keep the filter cutoff set to where you like it, then automate the filter to sweep up. I find this sounds best after the compressor and before the clipper. Lastly, yes proper sidechain will 100% keep the phase police from knockin down your door ;)

[@Baphometrix]

Great observations and tips! Thanks.

[@amg5656]

Indeed, good points.

[@troubletcat]

I've been really enjoying this series. I work in a very different style and space where loudness is less important, but I still feel like I'm learning a lot from hearing about your approach and your decision making in detail. One of the things you address pretty early in this video is what we should actually do with advice about mixing and engineering - think about it carefully, consider the received wisdom about engineering, and really try to understand WHY this is the advice, where it might be applicable, if we need to use it or not, etc.. I find this to be really refreshing compared to youtube videos that say things like "Cut these frequencies and boost these frequencies to make your guitars sound good" when... they know nothing about what my raw guitar audio actually sounds like, or what role it's supposed to serve in the track... You give enough context and explanation about WHEN and WHY certain techniques might be useful that I find I can actually apply it to my own productions in useful and interesting ways, whereas cookie cutter advice is mostly just totally useless. So thanks!

[@durimanuriplaylist2660]

How to set up a KZbin Channel that really means something for a specific Topic, and means something for other people. This is in every video, too. great inspiration!

[@HollowLeon]

I’ve been mixing for about 8 years now and I’ve been making “pretty damn good mixes” a while. My friends all are impressed with my work and come to me for anything audio related. However, I’ve known the entire time that there has been something missing. My mixes all sound good, but we’re never quite as loud or clear as things coming out of my favorite studios. I truly believe your clip to zero production strategy finally closed that gap for me. The last nugget of knowledge I was missing that I wouldn’t have received from and instructor- or most other KZbinrs for that matter. When I tell people how many limiters and clippers I use in production now makes people cringe, but it was the trick that brought all of my productions to the next level. Thank you Baph!

[@HollowLeon]

Also, duck by devious machines is the only thing I ever want to use for side chaining now. Invaluable, cheap plugin.

[@Baphometrix]

@@HollowLeon Right? It's great. One thing to be aware of with Duck, though. At least... when using it in Bitwig Studio. Bitwig is **super efficient** about putting plugins to sleep (very quickly) until they are actively used. For 99% of the plugins out there, this is no problem. But for Duck, I notice it means that if there's no audio sidechain input triggering Duck within the last 1 or 2 seconds of time, it goes to sleep and then MISSES the very first ducking slice it's asked to do when new audio sidechain input appears again. So to make Duck work **perfectly** in Bitwig--even from audio sidechain triggering--is to select the Duck plugin, then over in the inspector set it to "NEVER" sleep. I'm not sure whether this same problem happens in other DAWs.

[@fvckkvlt]

@@Baphometrix There is problem in Ableton when you sidechain triggering with Duck. Or maybe with anything. If you sidechain for example bass to kick, Duck will react some millisecond later. I think i´ve read somewhere that this is some internal problem of Abletons latency and I am not shure if there is some solution other than Ableton itself solve this problem in the future. Or maybe I am doing something wrong. I dont know :D Ableton live 10 user myself.

[@Baphometrix]

@@fvckkvlt Have you clicked the little gear-shaped "Settings" button next to "Trigger Level"? Try setting a lookahead value of 1 ms or 2 ms and see if that helps.

[@fvckkvlt]

@@Baphometrix Helped! Thank you. Love you

[@punchilux5783]

I totally agree. I stopped cutting master lows on every mix maybe 2 years ago. Every once in a while I'll be like hmmm should I low cut the mix on the master and then I do and I'm just like "nahhhhh idk why but it just doesn't sound good". So I appreciate you articulating why it doesn't sound good. Sick vid!

[@romyn8726]

i know right! even when creating snare drums, when i get to the point where Im finishing i think okay ill place a final eq to get rid of unnecessary lows. but i always swore it sounded worse after doing so!

[@molloyvader]

Perfect, just sitting here building computers and was hoping for a new Baphie drop.

[@schepperz]

Fantastic video Baphy! Those long videos really do the job for me. It's not something you say once and that's it - you really want this the listener / viewer to understand. Especially as English isn't my native language I am thankful for this concept. Love the advice that you should only apply this technique when you "hear" a problem. Heard a different phrase which I implement in my process (if in doubt leave it out). Thanks for all your great work!

[@chriswftdj]

Great video! I truly believe that your best lesson you teach Bap is in setting the example of what someone can discover and achieve if they do their own homework. I personally watched tons of different YT videos and think their great. However I don't think they should be solely relied on as without a base knowledge you can get lost in all the different opinions (which is what you somewhat pointed towards early in the video). Your series and videos are a great example of laying your own foundation, and again thanks.

[@GooseTronics]

thanks so much for doing these. along with the producer dojo, these videos are really upping my mixing game

[@Baphometrix]

Producer Dojo! Represent! 💖

[@afz5300]

Hey Baphy really really thanks for what you are doing and sharing these. I don't use ct0 method to obtain my loudness but all your videos are gems, these for the low end are awesome. Thanks from Italy

[@50CalBeats]

It's crazy to see this topic still being disputed, and I'm glad you're touching on it again from ALL angles it seems. There's an OLD video from Owen Palmer (used to be Owen The Geek, I believe) where they touch on the same topic of high pass filtering. They didn't go quite in detail as you (no one ever does ;P), but the phase shift and loss of headroom was touched on heavily. I have no idea where this "high pass everything without listening, looking, or thinking" advice originated, but I hope it dies some day soon.

[@nickcrude]

Thank you Baphy. Going through these for the first time, I have a feeling I will be revisiting. Great info.

[@superchala]

Thank you so much for the work you are doing in this videos

[@dernuniverse9813]

CTZ is the hot sauce of music mixing and Mastering Love it

[@wintourmusic]

Another great watch - no lengthy comment from me this time. Just a good video to reinforce good concepts and practices. Nice job.

[@SINERGIK-RECORDS]

love your content! takes away many doubts i had in the past about mixing! bless bro!

[@rauslitz2]

great series!

[@ThatBonsaipanda]

Deadmau5 mentioned his practice of cutting at least below 20Hz on the Razor mixing video (can still be found on YT, look for Mau5 freaks - "Deadmau5 - Mastering + Routing" at around 2:25). Steve Duda also goes into this on his Ableton talk, where he mentions listening to Joel's early stuff on live equipment and how it sounded pretty awful when inaudible bass rumble buried the actual kick etc. Joel uses Engineer's Toolkit (and specifically the Engineer's Filter) to cut infrabass on his tracks at around 20-30Hz. One fun trick I've also seen used is to cut everything from 80Hz except the kick, then complement the bassline with sine.

[@Baphometrix]

Good input! Thanks!

[@chriswftdj]

Looking forward to this!

[@VPROXE-HELLRAISER]

Dude, you should ask money for this excellent info. New sub! Thnx!

[@jamesbolt4489]

Great video!!!

[@joeyf808]

Baphy, Killin the Game, Thanks Again!

[@sarpozaydin]

Awesome video again!

[@AuroraBPolaris]

So my little insight in this is widespread for both highpassing overall mixes or single tracks. Say for example you have found your kick/snare/percussion/synth/whatever: you go and create an insert rack that compresses, saturates, clips etc... Perfect, you have a nice tame peak and you have reached your specific loudness for the element. If, however, you add a HPF to the end of the insert rack, whether gentle or steep slope, the phase issues that it creates not only influence the correlation between that track and the other tracks, but it also kills your beautiful tight transient peak you created so carefully. A few years back I started to see this in some of my tracks, where the snare was peaking like crazy even though i had saturated and clipped it a few dB to be nice and tight in the mix. It was suddenly peaking 2/3dBs above the whole mix again, creating unnecessary peaks in my mixdown. I might have missed this if you explained it in a previous video in the series, but I feel like it is a super important topic to underline especially when talking about high passing your ENTIRE mix, seeing as this will create a huge imbalance in the mixdown if you export it with a HPF. The same can also be said if you remove the so called "rumble" and then proceed to treat the mix further. You will be pushing unnecessarily all your other plugins due to these peaks that just "magically" popped up.

[@AuroraBPolaris]

Update: so I did watch your next video and it did cover the matter a little, however the slope you are using and the sound you are using is very distorted already. In my experience, this cannot apply to most trnasient sounds, like kicks and snares, because the HPF with a gentle slope would fk up the whole sample in of itself. I'm guessing the number 1 solution is "find better samples" right? However as you mention, these sounds are short short and even a few dB extra of clipping can definitely kill your kick/snare (depending on genre and timbre of the element being clipped), so why would HPF even come to mind in the first place? This is my question to you and to all the producers who resort to HPF immediately as a "rule of thumb" because X/Y/Z producer or mix/master engineer said so.

[@Baphometrix]

@@AuroraBPolaris I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't endorse putting an HPF in the sub region or even the low bass region. Nor do I endorse putting it on kicks and snares. And I do explain in many places that putting a pass filter anywhere at all (even up at Nyquist in an anti-aliasing filter) will create new, higher peaks than before in any signal. Still, in certain situations a gentle minimum phase HPF or LPF can be placed in the mids and highs without much problem, as long as the resulting clipped-to-zero signal still sounds fine. It's rather difficult to focus overlapping/layered sounds in the spectrum (episode 16) without using HPFs and LPFs. You just have to know what to avoid and what to watch for.

[@kumghatokhala7271]

DJ The Prophet said that during the vinyl days when there is so much low end the vinyl needle starts to jump therefore people cut away the frequencies below 20-30 hz to reduce the low-end which are not audible. You can check out this video where he talks about this at 22:00 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYiwZWmfZaalZ9U

[@marudelel]

+1 !! heard this couple of times as well.

[@bitles1210]

Hey, great video ! Thank you

[@michieljansen648]

Ill Gates was showing something interesting in his latest everything bass sound design series video. He made an Ableton rack where he mixes in an inverted low passed signal with the original signal instead of using a high pass filter (regular eq 8 filters, so zero latency).The idea is that the phase shift is in the part of the signal you don’t hear this way, although I must say I don’t fully understand how. In an oscilloscope you definitely don’t see the phase shift that you normally see when you add a high pass filter

[@Baphometrix]

Interesting! Dylan is very creative, and very technical, and very "dialed in" with a lot of engineers who specialize in the festival bass music world. A lot of what I know, I owe to being mentored by Dylan and being in his broad circle and knowing some of the same engineers and getting mentored by them as well. I'll have to investigate!

[@michieljansen648]

@Baphometrix He used the same principle to split the signal into 3 bands so you just process the mids or highs. I recreated this in reaper and it really seems to work. Would love to hear what you think of it.

[@23fx23]

@@michieljansen648 any non linear phase filtering will introduce phase shift, and will have its sub delayed compared to dry, (basically 90° per pole at cutoff frequency), that will delay the sub more than the his, so you will end up trying to cancel some bass with a 'delayed' version of it, wich cannot cancel perfectly, i think you are more refering at building crossovers with the high pass section being dry-LP or viceversa instead of a LP and a HP. in this case, yes this 'is transparent at idle stage as phase shift of one band is inverted in the other band, but it's only transparent at idle, as soon as you will alter any of the band, wich is generally the goal, phaseshift will come back and create nasty peaks of di-symetry, there are sadly no ''magic' tricks possible

[@michieljansen648]

@@23fx23 It seemed to good to be true to me as well, but looking at the rendered wave forms I can't see any obvious problems (or in your psyscope :)). I don't know if there's a way to measure the phase shift of a chain of plugins, I would be interested to see that.

[@wintourmusic]

@@michieljansen648 there is a tool called plugin doctor which allows you to look at the effects I believe - I haven't used it in a while though so I could be wrong. It's worth checking if it's what you need though. Edit: Sorry I commented before watching the video - it's funny how plugin doctor was used haha but perhaps you could use multiple instances of plugin doctor across the chain and attempt to sum the effect.

[@nickskywalker2568]

Hi Pass filters remove DC offset (energy level at 0hz frequency), just something to have in mind too

[@gildedwolf]

I see you talking about the different filter slopes for the HPF under 30hz at 53:00 but what would happen if you use a brickwall filter slope instead at around 20-25hz? is this a big no no? Is the brickwall filter slope useful at all anywhere in production or sound design? Thanks, great videos btw!

[@Baphometrix]

Any filter is useful for _creative_ purposes. For typical mixing issues, however, brickwall HPF or steep HPF filters in the low end can be problematic, because the steep phase shift they introduce can produce some unwanted cancellation near the knee of the filter. Then again, you can use this cancellation to useful effect, sometimes (like pushing down a metallic-sounding 2nd harmonic of a saturated/distorted sub). But it all depends.

[@CheloScotti]

great stuff, thank you! do you had some merchandaising Baphometrix t-shirt? i will love to had one

[@cottoo1]

Thanks again!

[@jeffreyjbyron]

Thanks for another great video. In several videos you mention differences when working with acoustic sounds or "realistic" instruments. Do you have any videos that focus on mixing for live instruments? It sounds like you have a lot of experience with recorded or acoustic music and I'd be interested to hear your take on it. Earlier in the series you use the Low Congregation track as a great example. I love the electronic/dance instruction of course, but I'd be fascinated to hear more about your approach.

[@Hippod91]

Very interesting, thanks ! Do these phasing issues also occur with shelf filters ?

[@Baphometrix]

Every type of minimum phase EQ filter causes **some** amount of phase shift. But the pass filters are the worst of the bunch.

[@isaac10231]

Baphy, do you know any songs, maybe some edm tracks that were made way back before the tech got this sophisticated - that you can hear an issue with the phase of the kick? I want to be able to train myself to know what to look for so if you can point to some bad tracks that would help.

[@Baphometrix]

You don't even have to reach that far back. Listen to "Zero" by Blanke. Listen closely to the heft and timbre of the kick hits in the early part of each buildup section, then quickly switch to the drops (which have massive subs happening along with the kick). You'll hear the kick totally change its timbre and lose most of its heft. Also check "Morbidly Obese (Redacted Mix)" by Matt Lange (all through the 2 minute to 3 minute mark). That said, don't overthink this. It's not necessarily "non-musical" to have the kick sound pretty fundamentally different during a song section where the subs come in hard, because the **entire song** sounds different from section to section. Once you've heard this effect the first time in a song like "Zero", you can start to notice it in other songs where it might be happening too. It's not necessarily a "bad" thing that your listeners will notice--or that **you** will notice--unless you're actively listening for it. At the end of the day, it's just something to be aware of, and another type of mixing decision you have to make: do you CARE if your kick is sounding different when the sub hits with it? That's a production choice.

[@sawabhacks8050]

well how do you keep your different sub notes equal volume ? my guess is using saturation ?

[@Baphometrix]

There are a variety of ways, but yes, some degree of saturation and/or compression can help with that. A LOT depends on how exactly you're generating the sub in the first place. There are myriad ways to create interesting subs and 808s. Some will crank out notes very even in power at all pitches in the sub range. Others might put out very uneven notes, amplitude-wise. A lot of producers will try to use an ultra-clean sine wave or triangle wave for the sub region, with some other oscillator layered on top to create the "bass top" or "sub top", but this is risky because the phasing between the two layers might cause the actual fundamentals in the sub region to vary quite a bit in amplitude at different pitches. It's perfectly fine to have some sort of layered "bass top", but I like to do it on a separate track entirely (not inside of one generator like Serum or Vital or whatever), and then make sure I've HPFed that mid-bass top far enough out of the sub region so that I don't get that problematic phase interaction. And I'm a big fan of lightly saturating my subs, or using sub waveforms that are already somewhat bent/waveshaped and therefore have some natural (and interesting) saturation overtones already built into the waveform itself.

[@lawinter1949]

Are there any known issues with high passing just the sides of a full mix? I usually do that to make bass mono on a full mix.

[@Baphometrix]

Yep! Don't do it! IMO it's bad advice. Rather than me explain it, David Gnozzi does an excellent job explaining it here in this fairly recent video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6WqoYF3eJaraLM . If you need to mono the low end of a sound (which is often a valid use case), it's better to use a tool that is doing mid-side matrix shenanigans in a way that is minimizing or eliminating the phase issues involved, and keeping the phantom center more or less intact. One such tool is bx_Control (by Brainworx). Some DAWs (like Ableton) also have a "bass mono" feature in some native utility device that does essentially the same thing. And there are various other plugins that can work this magic (such as Mongoose by Boz Digital) But doing by simply putting a HPF on the sides? No. What's the difference? All the plugins I mentioned (and Ableton's "bass mono" button in their "Utility" device) work by **summing** the sides into mono below whatever frequency you choose (and this is a gradual type of "funnel" shape). But simply HPF-ing the sides in a mid-side EQ is **removing** the sides down in that same region. BIG BIG difference, especially when you consider that the HPF itself is completely throwing **most** of your side information out of phase with the mids, which will smear transients like crazy across much of your mix. Don't do it!

[@AAARelish]

Hi, did you explain in one of your videos about why you prefer zero latency mode in pro-q instead of natural phase mode?

[@Baphometrix]

I'm not really a fan of the way the hybrid phase EQ sounds.

[@romyn8726]

I thought that phasing only happened at the cutoff frequency and sublty bleeds accross the spectrum after you affect the signal with the EQ, not the entire signal running through the EQ, am I wrong? also... would you know if there is a way to tell on a spectrum anaylser or some other device what areas are phasing the hardest post EQ? like for example , Say I do a HPF at 50 hz on the drums group, would that affect the transients of the snare drum? and if so would the affect be that bad if im only affecting 50hz on the EQ? Thanks again for another killer tutorial Baphy

[@Sebastian-tn4ft]

Hey baphomet, would you say that it’s more acceptable to hp the whole mix if the eq is set on linear phase mode? (Nvm you just got to that part)

[@justclegg]

Amazing video. Anywhere we can find the track you used as an example. Is it released. Sounds so good

[@Baphometrix]

That was just a quick and dirty demo I made for these videos, and maybe for my DJ crates. I don't publish very many songs these days.

[@nastika888]

this songs rocks! right in the feeling! @@Baphometrix

[@nastika888]

the boss of courseeeeeee

[@kevinkearney3836]

S.P.Y. the dnb producer said (I think it was on Instagram or in a youtube podcast with TC), that when he got his better monitors he started doing steep high passing at 17-20hz. He said he could hear junk down there he could never hear previously. I still have mixed feelings on this.

[@Baphometrix]

My viewpoint is that much of what is discovered/considered as "junk down there" is caused by letting too many things from your midrange instruments conflict and build up with your sub and kick, without understanding or addressing that problem at the real source. Using an HPF down int that region on the Master (or some other higher-level bus) is just slapping a messy, ineffective band-aid on the symptom, not really fixing the actual cause.

[@kenkeidnb2342]

@@Baphometrix You are probably correct there! One other point of clarification please… in your original CTZ videos when a high up bus like the premaster got too loud and clipped, you advocated using DP Meter to turn down the gain and then maybe clip a few dB’s or whatever the bus could handle. Seems like you have tweaked that strategy now… why the change? The lazy part of me kind of liked the old method;) Thanks and love your videos!

[@Baphometrix]

@@kenkeidnb2342 Yeah, one of my big updates for 2022 was "the VCA trick". If you start changing the gain on individual busses, you throw off your entire mix balance. After wrestling with the impact of that old advice a few times, I think its better to treat a too-much-clipping problem on a bus as a symptom that some upstream decision needs to be looked at closer and fixed at the source.

[@adamkuklovsky7254]

This again, is amazing knowledge, thx Baphy. Do you also consider CTZ technique to be applicable to other audio ''departments''(- such as movies, TV commercials). I mean mixing all the low - sound effects, as well as backgrounds, ambiences, music, foleys - with VO/Dialogue being the anchor/centre of the mix (usually)? Just would like to know your hypothetical opinion.

[@Baphometrix]

For broadcast, film, television, etc.... Those all play by very different rules and have to follow some strict guidelines about loudness. You might be able to borrow **some** principles and ideas from the CTZ approach, but this was designed for music production.

[@sawabhacks8050]

Thanks for answering my question Lord Baphy. One more question, a naive one. what effect does the phase shift have on the master level. I always fear the phase shifts in relation to phase cancellation with other tracks. e.g. phase shift is not great on base if it interacts with kick track in weird ways but phase shift alone on the base track does not harm it much or is it ? ( I think Dan worrall discussed this same point in one of his recent videos) so what could harm the phase shifting on the lower frequencies (as shown in above video) in relation to the whole mix. I am seeking theoretical justification because while working i can easily hear the blurriness caused by the zero latency mode of Fabfilter as compared to linear phase mode, but i want to understand why it happens.

[@Baphometrix]

With linear phase vs minimum phase, you're trading one type of blurriness for a different type of blurriness. On a complex signal (such as a full mix at the mixbus, Putting a minimum phase HPF in the extreme low end will shift the "thump" of your kick and any punchy pitch drop you *might* have built into your subs to a different phase from the "knock" elements and "click" elements of your kick much higher up the spectrum. Blurring the overall impact and tightness of your kick. This blurring will occur among transients of all sounds in the mix all they way up to around 1 Khz, at least. If you switch that same HPF to linear phase, you'll induce pre-ringing on your kick. On the kick, this is essentially yanking the low boomy/subby tail of the kick leftward in time by quite a bit, to the point were you can quite often **see** (and hear) a new sub wave poking way out in front of the kick's transient, and you might even see the entire shape of the kick become squashed and deformed leftward, meaning some of the subby sustain portions of the kick might suddenly poke above the ceiling of the kick slightly, meaning they're going to get squashed slightly more by any downstream clipper or limiter. On a sub with a pitch drop, this might slightly smear/change the sharpness of the pitch drop. You could argue that the overall audible "damage" is less with the linear phase HPF, but as I try to point out in the video, you might be trying to fix a problem (mud/rumble/junk in the extreme low end) that is you'd be far off better fixing a different way, at the real source of the problem. So why put a "dangerous" HPF down there at all? That's all talking about a full mix. Even on an individual kick track, the pre-ringing is still potentially an audible issue, and again, you might be inflicting that damage on the kick for no reason, because the real fix lies elsewhere, on different tracks entirely. On the sub track, as I tried to show, any phase shift from a minimum phase filter keeps the sub itself sounding pretty much identical to before, and the phase shift relative to the kick is not an issue if you've done your sidechain-ducking in a thoughtful way. So why deform the sub and introduce pre-ringing? Or why even put an HPF on it and risk either a phase shift OR pre-ringing, if the problem isn't actually with the sub itself, but with the interaction of your other mid-range sounds with the sub?

[@xfdsmusic]

Sweet video, very informative! I was just curious to know whether or not a low shelf filter will still cause the same phase issues?

[@Baphometrix]

Pass filters are the worst offenders. Shelf filters don't shift the phase nearly as much. Bell filters are the most gentle in terms of phase shift. But ANY filter down in the extreme lows (the sub region) is tricky, because even a small amount of phase shift down in that region can be really audible and can "smear" the punchiness of both your actual sound transients, and of any stacatto contrast (versus silence) you've built into your arrangement.

[@bestdisco1979]

Kind of related topic, when tutors recommend tuning the kick to the bass what exactly do they mean? Which note of the bass line are they talking about , the note it starts on or the lowest it goes ?

[@avationmusic]

The tonic or the fifth of your scale. I prefer the fifth

[@punchilux5783]

And to be fair, often us DJ's are idiots but its on purpose for entertainment :)

[@dennisblaul7228]

So for big progressive leads should I do a zero latency or linear phase. Or minimum. Since it’s high range it won’t make it sound washed out if it linear and won’t affect anything else since it’s sidechained. Right? I want it to be punchy but also cut out high end.

[@Baphometrix]

I think the best way to answer this is "it's always better/safer to use a minimum phase (zero latency) EQ unless you have a VERY specific need to use a linear phase EQ). Linear-phase is not "better". There's nothing wrong with the phase shifts in a minimum phase EQ. The phase shifts are what makes EQ actually work! Linear phase is very new in the audio world. It exists only in the digital medium. It **can** solve some tricky, classic problems, but those problems aren't common, and the tradeoff is you solve the classic problem but you introduce pre-ringing, which can smear transients. (Post ringing keeps the transient sharp and impactful.)

[@sahandmz4212]

And This is How WW3 Started !! :))

[@bitles1210]

One question. I like to send my whole drums group in to some reeverb like valhalla used as an AUX track.I do this cause it feels more cohesive for drums but i am not sure about this low end signal that is coming from kick after reeverb. I duck this signal against Kick and snr but is there something else i could do to process this reeverb low end information ?

[@Baphometrix]

It's **usually** best practice to run the entire signal into a reverb and then in the post-reverb output (still in the Aux track), put an EQ and HPF (or low-shelf) out most of the lower frequencies. There's a really excellent video by David Gnozzi (MixbusTV) showing this in the context of "achieving a stereo bass" sound. The same principle and technique could apply equally well to your use case. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXmwh2pmfb1nbMk

[@bitles1210]

Thank you for this link. I knew about David's videos but somehow missed this one. Omw to watch a new episode ! ;D

[@goobstersroom]

I work more specifically in trap/rap music and sometimes producers send over 808 samples that already have a kick like transient in them along with a kick stem by itself. I think they just like it to sound like it’s hitting extra hard but I know that it’s going to sum up well over 0dbfs affecting the clipper overall loudness etc… Do you think to make these sounds work better together sidechaining alone would do the trick to get the 808 transient sample out of the way from the kick or if the 808 sample is already hitting hard enough with the built in transient to just remove the kick altogether except for parts where there is only the kick playing within the track (if any). I primarily do mixing for other people so especially in this genre I’m faced with challenges of producers doing loads of things like this and I don’t think they’re quite aware of what’s going on. Then as a mixing engineer you make a change then the client says it’s not hitting the same and you have a whole dilemma and revisions. 😅 I guess to answer my own question it’s a sacrifice over a hard hitting low end or an overall loud mix. But anyone else’s input on this would be greatly appreciated 😁👍

[@Baphometrix]

Yeah, I feel for you. Bottom line, they **want** that extra "snap" or "knock" on the 808, so you have to try to retain it **somehow** while also still hitting the loudness target they might be asking for. Yes, if they put that extra kick layer on a **different** track, you can try to do a very surgical sidechain-ducking slice on the 808 itself, but again, the sound they might like **could** be the sound of the original more dull transient in the 808 being summed with the extra layered kick. Take hope though! It might sound perfectly fine to clip the hell out of that tall, spiky, summed transient when the two layers are combined. On one hand you ARE squashing that transient and making it softer, but you're also adding back in that little "spit" of bright distortion from the non-linear clip itself, so it can in some (many?) cases end up sounding just as punchy as before (or even MORE so), if you don't overdo the amount of clipping. You'll just need to experiement with some combination of very narrow, surgical ducking and clipping. Maybe even get in there on one or both layers with a Transient Shaper and see if you can bring the total summing down just a wee bit to sound good even when the summed result is clipped. Things like that.

[@Baphometrix]

One last thought... if you're a pro and have the budget for it, check out "Quantum" by Wavesfactory. That is a VERY surgical transient shaper, capable of some real magic.

[@goobstersroom]

@@Baphometrix hell yeah thank you Baphy for the advice! I appreciate it ill for sure check all that out!

[@positivguy]

When i do parallel processing, i always use a linear phase EQ. Is there a reason not to? I believe, a changed phase in the parallel signal won't mix well with the original because it might boost or attenuate frequies in an unwanted way because of phase "cancelation". Didn't test it though 😬

[@Baphometrix]

"parallel EQ processing" is a very different thing than I've been showing you and talking about. It's true that linear phase EQ can solve some problems associated with parallel EQ processing.

[@BigRasProd]

Thanks Baphometrix, I'm a recent "converted CTZ Disciple", huge Thanks from France! Lot of questions, but focusing on this Ep. I would have more info about "pre-ringing" and the difference between Natural/linear Phase mode" on Q3 or others plugins ... Could it be useful or not ? But you will tell me, that I must test by myself..."Cause it All Depends" ;) Thanks🙏Respect

[@Baphometrix]

I try not to spend effort covering subjects that are already well-covered by other KZbinrs. I think if you were to search for "pre-ringing" on KZbin, you'd understand the issue/problem fairly quick? Linear-phase filters are a bit more tricky, but again, think about what I say is wrong with linear phase, and maybe search for the term and see what other KZbinrs say about it. Linear phase never existed before digital music and DAWs. It can solve some very specific problems, but it always incurs pre-ringing, which you can literally SEE in your waveforms and in many cases HEAR quite clearly. TL;DR is that careful application (or not) of an HPF or LPF in minimum phase mode can do less overall "damage" to your sounds/signals than the pre-ringing itself. But yes... "it all depends" 😆

[@BigRasProd]

@@Baphometrix Thanks Maestro for your quick answer ! Effectively with "pre-ring" research in YT I found more details about this linear matter ... and with my new good oscillo I'm able to see those things, (bought due to your teachings)👀 Merci ! au revoir

[@kiko8u]

WOOHOO!

[@JuanMotta]

👏👏👏👏

[@goobstersroom]

Also what version of flux is that? Is that the flux essential?

[@Baphometrix]

The full-featured Flux Analyzer is too expensive for my blood, lol. I'm using the slightly less configurable version that comes in the "Studio Session Pack" bundle at Flux. It's called "Studio Session Analyzer". This analyzer isn't for everyone. You'll HATE it if you work directly on a laptop screen and don't use a second monitor when producing. It doesn't run as a plugin in your DAW. It runs in a standalone app window on your OS, so any time you click in your DAW or in a plugin window for your DAW, your DAW will pop to the front and completely cover the Analyzer window. But if you always have a 2nd monitor available, it's amazing!

[@goobstersroom]

@@Baphometrix thank you

[@shubu42069]

just confirming. the correct place you're suggesting to make low end cuts is at the source, or potentially a group bus? but never the master or mixbus.

[@Baphometrix]

Yes. Fixing problems at the source tracks themselves is *always* best.

[@romyn8726]

@@Baphometrix So its still okay to use HPF's on individual drum elements? wouldnt't that still affect the transients of those elements? or is the main problem that when you put a HPF on a group that all the transients affect one another

[@Baphometrix]

@@romyn8726 HPFs are generally "safe" to use up around 300 HZ or higher. Where you run into real problems is when you put them down in the bass region or the sub region. Why? Because a minimum phase HPF (or LPF) makes a huge 180-degree phase shift in the signal right near the filter frequency, and this phase shift extends pretty far on both sides of the filter frequency. On a single sound in your mix, this phase shift is perfectly fine as long as everything still "sounds good" to your ears. But when you put a phase shift down in the bass and sub region--even on a single track--you MIGHT be throwing off important phase relationships in the low end of your mix. You can really hear audible phasing between different sounds interacting down there, such as between your kick and your sub, or between your sub and your basses. But when the phase shift is higher up in the spectrum (roughly 300 Hz and higher), you don't hear audible phasing nearly as much, so it's "safer". And using linear phase HPF or LPF to avoid the phase shift isn't the answer, either. Because linear phase introduces pre-ringing, which can smear your transient punch and tightness. Linear phase EQ is for very specific edge cases, such as certain challenges with parallel EQ--which itself should be avoided for an entire host of reasons, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

[@romyn8726]

@@Baphometrix thank you man, you're truly an amazing teacher!

[@seaofseeof]

Actual pro musicians, even some mastering engineers, keep pushing the high pass everything thing. Bust I've NOTICED, from the beginning, that _snares_ are just completely messed up with a hpf. I've not really experienced phase shift issues for my kick (for context, most of my kicks are in the drum & bass end of the sound spectrum for kicks -- around 70-100 hz) and I never bothered hipassing my sub. But my snare, the fundamental of which is usually around 200 hz, will start peaking insanely when I hipass. It's not even funny. I just gave up. "Hipass and just put a limiter on it", nope. Fuck it. Do what sounds right and don't do what sounds bad. And if you have to control the low-end, just low-shelf it. I'm pretty sure that I mentioned Dom & Roland before in my comments here, but that's another thing he does that vindicates my practices along your videos haha.

[@arnoldwatkins805]

Where can I get the song?

[@whothisbuddhist]

Does this mean to also not shelf master eq’s?

[@Baphometrix]

Shelf filters are MUCH more gentle and do less "damage". Especially for three reasons: A) their phase shift in minimum phase EQs is MUCH less than the phase shift from a pass filter, B) they don't make huge new peaks in the signal like pass filters do, and C) To make a shelf filter actually "work" to achieve the desired audible change in the signal, you tend to set the actual filter point fairly far from the extreme ends of the spectrum. In other words, to "reduce" or "increase" your low end, you don't set the shelf filter at 20 Hz or 30 Hz... you set it MUCH higher. So the area where the filter point sits is much less sensitive to phase differences

[@whothisbuddhist]

@@Baphometrix gotchya. Thank you for the response. Shelf filters are able to make softer changes than passes and don’t shelf right at the sides but rather further towards the middle because this will blend things together better.

[@knotlock]

I could be wrong, but I recall Deadmau5 said this in his MasterClass. This is advice I’ve never followed because my favorite reference tracks clearly don’t do this.

[@pietpales]

Problem is what I have in my tracks/song. If you make EDM that have lot of bass for example Trap or Hardstyle and cut off the lows in the tracks, it add more peaks/RMS and lose headroom instead gaining headroom with a normal EQ. If you use Linear Phase EQ you gain more headroom . So strange behavior. So thats because the phase issues......

[@Baphometrix]

Have you ever bounced those (hardstyle or trap bass) tracks that you've high-passed with a linear phase EQ? And then zoomed in and taken a real good look at the waveform in the bounced track? Especially right at the start of a new note, right after some hard silence? You can literally **see** the pre-ringing right there in the waveform. It can be very loud especially if you're anywhere near the bass or sub region. That pre-ringing is affecting every transient throughout the waveform... not just the very start of the waveform. Sure, you've reduced the peaks typically caused by a pass filter (but even a linear phase HPF or LPF will **still** cause higher peaks than before). But you've induced pre-ringing, which can be really audible and pronounced especially in signal with a heavy bass component. gyazo.com/9fae0530e34cd15e4fa1b1e5d92a15ff

[@proverbalizer]

@@Baphometrix if it's so loud and very audible he should have to bounce and zoom in to SEE it

[@Baphometrix]

@@proverbalizer I get what you're saying, but perhaps what I'm trying to say will be more clear in Episode 18, which is out now: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5TFlnR5mdR4o9U

[@pietpales]

@@Baphometrix I never exactly bounced a track and look at it for the phase issues because I didn't know you can see if you bounced. I will and should do the next time:D I only knew it since I watched your tutorials, I had only read and heard that with a linear phase EQ you could solve the problem for cutting the low end that you get a lot of peaks with a normal eq.

[@MrCool144]

Jesus saves. Luca pretolesi uses linear phase all the time on masters. He mastered Rumble by Skrillex. The Tdr nova has a really smooth HP. Sounds very transparent compared to ProQ. Never do more than 12db per octave.

[@aboliguu1168]

Your clain about ”smoother HP filters” in tdr nova makes no sense. If they are at the same frequency, have the same q factor (ProQ at 1 and nova at 0.71) and the same steepness, they are exactly the same. Perfect digital filters

[@MrCool144]

@@aboliguu1168 pro Q runs the filters in series. So moving one band effects the others. Nova runs in parallel. So each band is a separate filter that gets summed up into one signal at the end. Like a pultec eq. Also nova has a lower bass threshold down all the way to 10 hz. So cutting there will literally have no effect on anything 20 hz or above.

[@aboliguu1168]

@@MrCool144 yeah that’s partially true. The main part that is false in that statement is that the highpass or lowpass filters would sound any different. No, they are still the same. There are differences when you use multiple bands because they sum differently together but single bands are the exact same. Also the differences can be easily recreated in proq3 so it doesn’t matter in that sense either.