Mixing With Mike Mixing Plugin of the Week: Waves Vocal Rider (Take 2)

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[@yanguimedia]

So easy to get things wrong when you don't have the experience. I was a bit deceived by this plugin but now I understand its purpose better. Thanks Micheal (again) for sharing your knowledge with us.

[@mixingwithmike]

Cheers!

[@trevord4243]

Been looking to get the most from this plugin since owning it. Great tips and background on it's inception. Makes for better sense of it in a practical way. Thanks for sharing.

[@mixingwithmike]

Cheers!

[@AAscension]

I use this plugin for my podcast. I use one at the beginning of a vocal chain and at the end, with a compressor in between. This really helps to keep the volume at the same level.

[@schnowtza]

Thanks for to tutorial...I bought the Vocal Rider last years when it was on sale, and have not used it because ...I didn't understand or misunderstood exactly what it does. Now I understand, thank you! I will now be leaning to use it in my mixes.

[@mixingwithmike]

+schnowtza Cheers! Let me know how you make out with it now...

[@slamcrank]

I really enjoyed watching the video, Mike -- I've never had much luck with the Vocal Rider, but admittedly, I've only ever tried to use it a few times (when I wasn't on a time constraint). Each time, I felt that I achieved better results just writing the automation the old fashioned way. I think I'll give it another shot next time I'm not on-the-clock.

[@mixingwithmike]

+slamcrank Cheers!

[@Reallil]

Thanks for the Clarity...pun intended lol on this plug in, I was a bit confused as to how to properly use this plug in and what to expect from it prior to watching this video

[@RobertLStrupe]

Great video, thanks for sharing! I have found VR very useful at both ends of the chain. I can run it after my initial subtractive EQ to even things out. Then, print and complete the chain with my normal compressors, EQ, etc.. The compressors don't have to work nearly as hard and I still get great tone from the units (This is awesome if you can't afford the CPU power to run a lot of different compressors). Finally, I'll run VR at the end to help balance the vocal against the music as you suggest. All in all, a definite time saver!

[@mixingwithmike]

+Robert L. Strupe Thanks for the feedback Robert! Cheers! Mike

[@punky2deep]

Yeah that's how I like to use it too. When he said this plugin is meant for using at the end and I was thinking exactly this. Cheers!

[@nyatitinyadalacic]

Hey Michael White thanks for this amazing session, could you make time and do the same in studio one please?

[@futuredoodofficial]

excellent video. it's nice to see you clear up the confusion on how to use certain plugins since theres so much misinformation out there.

[@mixingwithmike]

Thanks David!

[@Mineiro426]

Hi, Michael. Thanks for this awesome tutorial. Just a question: would it be correct to look at vocal rider like some kind of automated trim plugin or volume fader rather than an automated compressor? Does it add some kind of colloration, density change, etc on the sinal like we could expect from the use of compression? Please forgive me if I couldn't find the right words to make my question, english isn't my primary language.

[@Ben.Babylon]

AHH this song is so familiar but I can't pick it out. What is this song/who is it by ?

[@ManOf1000Vocals]

That damn singer is awesome! Send me his social media page. Thanks. Good video too.

[@tonyd6753]

hey mike, I've seen this used by producers on mix with the masters at the beginning of the vocal chain. the idea is to get a proper gain setting before going into vintage compression/eq emulations. what do you think of that?

[@owisagrom]

Thanks Mike. You say it's an end stage processor. Is there any value in putting it before a compressor to even out the compressor's input?

[@mixingwithmike]

+PawzUK By design, it is an end stage processor because it is emulating moving fader automation techniques for vocals. I have not found it particularly useful at the beginning of the processing chain, but others have. If you get results that you like using it that way, go for it! Cheers! Mike

[@gitemjay2331]

Michael White that’s a great point... logically the automation wouldn’t happen until the vocals are mixed, correct?

[@emmanuelleroy2915]

So u you insert on the actual vocal channel or u put this on a bus?

[@eddieesco2432]

where would you put his on your vocal chain?

[@mixingwithmike]

At the very end.

[@newwavesproduction6922]

What the name of the singer and song ?

[@tomaszmusic]

Thanks for the tutorial, Mike. I wanted to ask you same, so it's great the answer is already there :) . I also use the Vocal Rider before the compression, and it seems to be very helpful when you want to even the vocal track gain. Am I right that the issue is the tonal ballance too? When you put the fader up, you get more bottom end frequencies. But is this the reason we should put the Vocal Rider as the last in the chain?

[@mixingwithmike]

Hi Tom, Actually, moving a fader is completely transparent with regard to freq response. What you are hearing is Fletcher Munson effect as you raise or lower a level. Conversely, a vintage compressor will definitely color the sound as the compression gets heavier. I think my biggest reason for using it last in the chain is that is is an emulation of 'end of chain' automation techniques used by engineers on moving fader systems. Those moves are more based on perceived loudness rather than actual loudness and i think that is why I find it less effective earlier in the signal chain. Cheers! Mike

[@tomaszmusic]

Thanks for your reply and detailed explanations!

[@jammer777]

Thanks Michael. Question... having trouble understanding why you wouldn't use this before compression. Wouldn't it make sense to feed the output into compression so that less compression was needed resulting in a more natural, less compressed signal (unless one wanted the compression for more of an effect). Seems like one of the benefits touted by users of this plug in is that less compression is needed because you are basically automating the level resulting in less work for the compressor to do which in turn gives a more natural uncompressed result. Just curious your thoughts? I know there were some similar questions but if you have any additional details as to why I would appreciate. Cheers!

[@mixingwithmike]

I don't use it before compression because I never seem to like the way it sounds. Many have recommended this to me and I never like it better than what I normally do. I balance the gain of a vocal prior to processing with a VU meter so the compression is consistent. Vocal Rider is designed to emulate moving fader automation techniques which are always at the end of the chain. It's not really designed to even things out as much as it is to bring back dynamic aliveness after compression of lost articulations and nuances in a performance. But if it works for you, go for it. Some people swear by it. Cheers! Mike

[@jammer777]

+Michael White thank you!

[@wermeint2]

So did you design this plugin? No. Of course it was designed to even out things and to be used before compression to make the compressor's life easier and the results better/more even sounding!

[@mixingwithmike]

No, did not design. I spend countless hours riding vocal levels the same way this plugin is designed to emulate for artists like Whitney Houston in the 80-90's. Also talked at length with the Waves design team that created the plugin. If that's not enough for you, here is the first couple of lines from the Vocal rider manual. "Vocal Rider is the first of Waves pioneering new series of Mix tools. As its name implies, it automatically rides vocal track levels. Instead of manually riding a mixing console fader, or tediously drawing in every level change on a DAW track, Vocal Rider does it for you, making it a true timesaver." Doesn't mean you cannot use it for riding levels pre compression, but that is not what it was specifically designed for. there is no mention of using this way in the manual. Cheers! Mike

[@dudewithadog]

The reason why it was historically used post-inline effects was a limitation of the signal flow at the time, and there was no sensible workaround. To adhere to that limitation out of sentimentality or for whatever other reason misses the point that the digitization of plug-ins overcomes those limitations. Of course it makes sense to use the vocal rider pre-compression. To "bring back dynamic aliveness after compression of lost articulations and nuances in a performance" is not something that this plug-in was specifically made for, but if you want to use it for that, go for it. I personally don't know why you'd squash vocal nuances out first, to only then try to compensate for that, if you could use much gentler settings post-rider. Rider was developed to avoid unnecessary coloration of over-compression, no matter in what position (pre or post inline fx) you use it.

[@sideburnernie3081]

I use this little guy on Sax leads sometimes. I am always up anything that rescues me from painstakingly drawing in automation. Question. Do you ever find on vocals that you need to touch up the settings on a de-esser that may be in the chain above it? Not that sibilance is a major issue for me but in your video I see that for some S's, Ess's?, it adds gain and for some there's a reduction. PS: Just locked on to your channel, my new fave. Your tutorials go deeper into the inner workings of some expensive-ass plugins I have owned for quite sometime and only now feel I can maximize their potential.

[@mixingwithmike]

+Sideburn Ernie Thanks SE! I have not used it on Saxes but I could see how that would work well A good sax solo has a lot of expression in it similar to a voice. Regarding the De-Essing, looks like I didn't set anything up prior to the VR. I'm not sure that would effect the settings greatly unless the attack setting and Sensitivity were maxed out. Great to have you on board and glad you are getting a lot out of the videos! Cheers! Mike

[@gitemjay2331]

👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@ceed3d396]

👍🏽

[@slumz12]

vocal rider is definitely used for balancing levels out. One thing about mixing is that THERE ARE NO RULES! I hate when people wanna get technical saying shit like plugins are only for this and for that. I used vocal rider for gain staging and it works so stop trying to teach people that your way is absolute when it's not you jabroni.

[@mixingwithmike]

I think you missed my point. The design of the plugin was to emulate automation techniques for riding vocal levels which is similar but not the same as leveling a vocal out. You can use it whatever way you want and if it works for you then that's awesome! The "No Rules" thing is complete BS and is the very reason that most peoples mixes sound like crap. The whole idea of this channel is to demonstrate engineering techniques that have worked for decades. Once you establish that foundation, then you can bend and break the rules to get creative. The only way the rule breaking can work is because of a foundation of good engineering skills that enable it to be effective.

[@MacReviewzOnline]

@@mixingwithmike exactly, and you never said "don't use it that way". You s aid that's how you recommend using it, or rather that's how it is generally being used. People are extremely sensitive...