MLS & USA Switching to Pro/Rel? | Why it SHOULD Happen!

Should MLS and America Adopt the Promotion/Relegation system? Is this the only way we reach our potential in Soccer?
I brought on my friend @tacticalmanager to give his thoughts on Pro/Rel and if he thinks the United States will ever adopt the system.
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[@MLSMoves]

Will Pro/Rel happen and it should it?

[@miguelgarcia-salas3007]

No.

[@BoyTheBlack]

no, we don't need it...the top teams will always be the top teams...look at the clubs in europe...these clubs will always be on top!..and I don't think Filippo understands how America gets the best atheletes in football and basketball (just like soccer being a culture in other countries, basketball/football development is culture here in the U.S)..

[@SuperSirianRigel]

No. And absolutely not.

[@r2dad282]

Of course. USSF is letting MLS kill off USL clubs? Why is that acceptable? How many fans hate MLS and USSF as a result?

[@michaelwalker7400]

Unless there are massive upgrades in stadia, team practice facilities and academies it won't happen. A team that still plays at a high school stadium shouldn't be playing in the top two leagues of the U.S. Soccer pyramid.

[@TacticalManager]

Thanks for having me! 👊🏽

[@MLSMoves]

Thanks for coming! Not let’s make everyone either Happy or Mad with some Pro/Rel talk

[@mrmr5580]

As a non-American (im British) the only issue I see is pro/rel isn't a thing in the American culture and will the American audience take to a potential MLS 2, here in Britain pro/rel has always been there, we've all grown up with it, and relegated clubs all have their hardcore supporters regardless, I don't know if America (MLS in particular) has fostered that level of support yet, in the US you have more of a franchise system, and the fans seem more like customers, over here fan groups have more of a say in things, I think in theory pro/rel is a good idea (if MLS keeps expanding, at some point it'll become a necessity) but it the fans worry me, I'm not sure its developed far enough yet

[@MLSMoves]

I think if they ever do have Pro/Rel it will be MLS putting their own spin on it. Which is better than nothing imo. I do wish we had a system like others but I don’t see it happening

[@stevenygabbyperez695]

I am American, and I agree that our culture doesn't understand pro/rel. To me it's like saying that Europe can just implement the high school & collegiate American football culture so they can establish a professional league. It will never happen here. Not only because of the culture but also because the American system is much better at making money.

[@jjandorliadul]

@@mrmr5580 As an American, I tend to agree. Obviously all modern sports leagues throughout the world are entertainment products to be consumed, first and foremost. However, these products are very much embeded into the culture of not just European cities, but down to certain districts and neighborhoods. In America, just go to any NBA or Hockey game and it's similar to attending a kid's birthday at Chuck-E-Cheese. In MLS Stadiums, sure the atmosphere is better but the fact that it's such a young league, the veneer of any culture surrounding the team seems corporate lead and fake. Even the generic naming of the recent teams and their unwillingness to listen to the fans makes the whole venture feel so disengenuous. Will Americans be willing to follow a bad team in a lower league through thick and thin? I think the individual teams in MLS will really need to tap into whatever local idenities of such a young country and itinerant population, and simply milk it in order to retain a fan base should they be relegated.

[@mrmr5580]

@stevenygabbyperez695 maybe, my guess is if MLS keeps expanding it might but like you said its a foreign concept to a lot of American sports fans

[@mrmr5580]

@@jjandorliadul its like a club not far from me (Port Vale, im in South Cheshire, Vale is about 20-30 minutes away) they got relegated the other week, but I know there's a hardcore section of fans that'll be there next season, same as ever, you're right it is ultimately entertainment, my reservation is purely on I question whether the MLS clubs have supporters that committed, like you alluded to, it very corporatised, and teams are franchises not clubs, it's not the same thing, I think pro/rel might become a necessity if MLS keeps expanding but itll be years down the road

[@carljacobs1260]

Draw a line from Kansas City to Minneapolis. Then tell me where all these soccer teams are supposed to naturally grow in the "Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom" campaign. You have (sort of) two markets - Des Moines and Omaha. Neither market is capable of existing in Division I. If you think media partners would accept the substitution of Des Moines for Minneapolis, you better go talk to your prospective media partners. So even if Des Moines could theoretically get promoted, it couldn't practically get promoted. It won't meet the standard required. So how then do you avoid clustering all these teams in major media markets? How would you even keep the lower division teams alive in that cluster? Didn't the USL team in San Diego just get terminated by MLS? The problem gets worse as you go down the pyramid. Say someone starts a team in Mason City Iowa. What is he supposed to do with it? How can he get promoted any significant distance up a pyramid with that as his base? He can play in a small regional league (assuming one exists) but he is effectively trapped there. He can't even displace Des Moines. Pro/Rel is European solution to a European problem of too many clubs in too small an area. That is not an American problem. The solution won't work here. Besides, the unspoken inherent logic in this argument is fundamentally backwards. You don't build a soccer culture on the pyramid. You build the pyramid on the soccer culture.

[@BloodRider1914]

This is a fair point, and one that is not uncommon even in European markets. The fact is that clubs in major cities generally generate more revenue, and only a select few small town clubs actually manage to ascend to a higher level, usually through very smart management and the odd windfall from playing big teams rather than expanded revenue generation. That being said, I don't see it as a problem for small towns to have local clubs that only sometimes advance up the leagues. Currently only certain college towns have the privilege of sports culture, and Americans in small towns are forced to either watch major league or college games on TV, go to high school games, or simply not indulge in sports. Professional or semi professional soccer teams, even if they're not successful from a media perspective and remain in lower leagues, can still be a boon for local communities and enhance sporting culture in the US. And a rich owner isn't even necessary, just a system which allows individuals to register with a lower state-based league with promotion and compete.

[@gerhernz1698]

I prefer playoffs over pro/rel to be honest. Curious to see how MLB would function with pro/rel

[@nohbuddy1]

It would kill the sport. You're going to downgrade a billion dollar franchise? Imagine telling players they will play in a meaningless season. Imagine telling fans that too

[@aidancoleman7274]

Beyond Cultural differences, promotion relegation is not a good financial move for the MLS. The MLS relies on investments and buy ins. Pro/Rel increases financial instability and investors will not invest or invest much less into teams. Teams would have a much harder time combing players to join a team in danger of relegation ex. Christian Benteke to DC United, and the geographic challenges of not being able to control where teams that are promoted are beaded out of would destroy the East/west system and playoff system currently implemented

[@ElondonOSRS]

Looking good moves! It’s nice to finally put a face with the voice.

[@MLSMoves]

Thank you! It was long overdue.

[@db-lc6gp]

Fillipo Silva made some good points; however I believe the MLS teams who don't do well do have consequences for not winning and ending on the bottom of the league, their attendance goes down the coach is usually fired, a lot of players are let go and are replaced and potential youth recruits don't want to play for them and if those youth players are good enough they will go to a different academy. So for MLS Moves to say there is no consequences it is not true. I very much agree with Fillipo the USSF needs to stop allowing investors the ability to start there own leagues and compete against each other, All leagues need to flow in the same direction and stop working against each other?!

[@mike-lf8qu]

This goes for all American leagues, if you don't have or don't plan on doing pro/rel there needs to be consequence for bottom teams that will effect there chances to getting into playoffs the next season. None of this BS of tanking to get 1st round draft pick.

[@davepazz580]

The "tanking" plan doesn't really work with soccer anyway, since a single new young player isn't really going to have a meaningful impact on a team all by himself...

[@isaacgogna9856]

@@davepazz580true and it’s not like many draft picks end up very successful anyway. My team RSL has been lucky with a couple in the last few years but those were the exception. And they definitely weren’t the 1st pick.

[@nohbuddy1]

The consequences are not making the playoffs, losing your job

[@BloodRider1914]

As a hockey fan, rebuild years are not fun, and it sucks that you just have to accept that your team is ass for a few years

[@codycomer4623]

Personally I’m against just cuz I think it’ll end up with multiple teams in LA, NYC, Miami, and other big cities and leave huge sections of the country unrepresented and in the long run that’ll shrink the fan base of pro soccer because most American sports fans just care about the big leagues. My schedule suggestion, espically once they add a few more teams is they play each other once and alternate home and away each year. So if you have 40 teams you’d have a 39 game schedule. It’s not perfect for sure, but I don’t think there’s gonna be a perfect solution in a league this big and it’d be more balanced than now where you play some teams 3 times and others you haven’t seen in 3 years. Cool seeing yall do a video together!

[@multiplier6526]

W video man nd i kinda like expected ur face to look like that it matches the voice looking forward for more

[@MLSMoves]

Thank you!

[@ItsBroMigo]

Looking good bro!

[@MLSMoves]

Appreciate it brother!

[@craigceecee8762]

I think, once MLS gets to 36 clubs, it should split into MLS and MLS 2. TV revenue should be split 60-40 between the two leagues to give some benefit for MLS but not enough that it kills MLS 2 teams. The regular season champion and the playoff champion in MLS 2 should be promoted, along with one final match between the playoff runner-up and the 3rd-bottom club in MLS (the bottom 2 get relegated).

[@joeyfosterWVU]

Show me the Jersey baby, is mine 😂😂😂.... Great video My friend.... Keep up the great work

[@HarveyWallbangers2]

This issue gets a bit tiresome. However, if MLS does go pro/rel, I think they'll still need to have two conferences with each conference having 1-2 teams relegated each year. This is because of the size of the country and the issue you mentioned in the video about keeping the geographic reach balanced. Also, I think the league will want more teams in MLS 1. I could see a 24 team MLS 1 with 12 teams in each conference. Each team would play every team in their conference twice and every team in the other conference once--for a 34 game season. The worst team in each conference gets relegated. Top 8 teams in each conference make the playoffs. The other three teams in each conference could play a relegation playoffs--with the loser playing a team from MLS 2 for a spot in MLS 1.

[@noting7678]

I just don't see Pro/Rel happening or surviving in the USA like many people talk about. How many people would care about a 3rd division team?

[@NoName-rq6bg]

enough would. Soccer fans aren’t plastic fans like the other sports fans

[@SuperSirianRigel]

I don't. I don't even really care about the 2nd division team that is Closer to me than any of the nearest MLS teams. lol.

[@snapplefaxs8704]

Ask the MLS next pro league and the owners buying teams in it.

[@SuperSirianRigel]

@@snapplefaxs8704 They aren't buying teams in it expecting to get promoted one day. Because they know that isn't how the system works. So your point doesn't really matter. lol.

[@thepandaken5475]

Plenty, because it isn't doomed to be a 3rd division team forever. There's no point today to root for a minor league team because they will never, ever, ever be able to win anything important. Not so in open formats.

[@thejackofalltrades5171]

Again with promotion relegation. San Diego just dropped 500 million on a team, have to build new stadium, and facilities etc. A LOT of money being invested to see it all go to crap on a season which saw injuries galore? Nah, I am not investing in that.

[@SuperSirianRigel]

Exactly! I'm tired of this crazy, "Let's make America like everyone else." NONSENSE. It won't work. No one will accept it business wise. And no traditional American sports fan will stomach it. MLS can't have teams that's paid millions and millions get relegated and fold like every single one of them would. American fans don't want to see the best teams or just even their favorite teams in the NFL, NBA, or MLB get thrown into some minor league and fall apart... Why would we want that in our soccer? Soccer already isn't popular enough compared to the other pro sports. And not to mention it fights with college football and even college basketball sometimes. This is a non-starter and I wish the woke fans of soccer would get it out of their heads. lol.

[@r2dad282]

@SuperSirianRigel You're explaining how bad American fans are, running away from their clubs if they suck. Kansas City Chiefs were crap for 50 years--their fans didn't disappear. Even Vikings fan, who have never won anything, still have Minnesota fans. So the data doesn't agree with your conclusion.

[@SuperSirianRigel]

@@r2dad282 Ha ha. Yeah they stuck around. Because their teams stuck around and still exist in the NFL. They didn't get relegated to the UFL or something. They always have had the slightest glimmer of hope that next year could be better. If they got relegated there wouldn't be any hope at all. So your point is actually Pointless. lol

[@r2dad282]

@SuperSirianRigel " there wouldn't be any hope at all." This is pure conjecture on your part. You have not earned the certitude you display.

[@TMAC803210]

I’m neutral on pro/rel, but really feel it’s an endless cycle of pandering to “real” “football” fans that do nothing to help grow the game in the US in the first place.

[@davidday2373]

I got into the sport because of LAFC, and if MLS already had Pro-Rel when I started following it, I wouldn't have cared either way. But it's been these type of people and their arguments that has made me go against Pro-Rel

[@ZeroFamilon]

I'm sort of also neutral towards the whole pro/rel argument. Mostly it feels like Euro snobs think that pro/rel will be this immediate " fix all" to improve the quality of MLS just because that's how the top European Leagues are set up. I think the biggest issues for MLS right now are youth development and the strict spending/salary cap. If both of those areas are addressed by MLS, I believe it will continue to steadily grow with or without pro/rel.

[@SimpleCoachTV]

Let me know if you are interested in the counter argument. Happy to join you.

[@Coolwhip899]

coach, are you going to start speaking more on us soccer and MLS? I think you got some level headed takes and knowledge

[@SimpleCoachTV]

@@Coolwhip899 Thanks CoolWhip. I do and will, especially in the college off season. What I have discovered is that I am not sure on many topics, especially things as emotional as Pro/rel or MLS is Bad....that "level headed takes and knowledge" are not really what KZbin wants.

[@Coolwhip899]

@@SimpleCoachTV Sadly you are correct about that. Its the algorithm's world we are just living in it. I think its a good strategy to go on other channels, I found out about you from the tac video and appreciated what you had to say

[@manzac112]

I don't think promotion and relegation would work. But the United States is so big that you can at least do five or six leagues and foster regional culture or rivalries. They just need to be affordable to go to and for fans to at least have the mindset of supporting the team through it all.

[@diegovaiasuso8535]

The NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA all don’t have Pro/Rel. All those league are doing great. MLS doesn’t need it either. I could make the argument that not having Pro/Rel makes the league more stable and creates more solid fan bases for each franchise. It will also keep franchise fees high which is good for MLS.

[@diogomarinho182]

The argument that not having pro/rel is easily disproved with soccer itself. Fanbase in Europe is pretty solid even when the team is relegated. And as for the stability of the league I don't see any of the European league ending anytime soon, and it does help the league that you have the best teams competing against one another. It just happen that the structure of US sports is different, not better or worse, just different how it was built from the get go

[@awol_evan]

The geographic and timezone strains are a deterrent for full-league pro rel. I do think isolating the regular season to just interconference games makes sense. Then maybe have seeded intraconference playoffs, i.e. 1st in the East vs 7th in the West, etc

[@HarveyWallbangers2]

MLS have flown charter for awhile, but travel is still difficult.

[@SykoKilla]

Enjoyed the podcast-style format in this video. Still a big fan of your normal style of video, but I think these videos could do well if you sprinkle them in every couple of weeks! I enjoy the open discussion! Keep up the good work! P.S. As a former content creator myself, I know how nerve-racking that first face reveal can be. You did a great job!

[@MLSMoves]

I’m going to be doing both still. Weekly recaps will be the same and then I will have these type of vids as well

[@AKUNJIG]

Still keeping my neutrality over Pro/Rel. I would like to have it, but none of the Leagues want to do it. We wouldn't see it in the US. USL could do it easily and become a bigger threat to MLS overnight. My fear right now is that MLS is looking to Monopolize the sport by scooping up smaller teams. We're supposed to get 8-9 Clubs into our MLS Next Pro now?

[@kidbrown2010]

Great discussion fellas. I am more inclined towards an MLS 1&2 if this was ever to happen. Which I hope it does. Not even because of the relegation itself, but because I share your same frustration at the increasing disparity in East v West match ups. I was irked that TFC doesn't face either LA team this year. It's functionally not one league. League is too big to follow the same format. I am old school in that I liked MLS better when it was 20 team. 30 teams is already too many for me and I have no doubt it's going up to 40. It's like if the Prem and Championship merged. What a clusterfuck.

[@Angrygumballl]

Relegation could set soccer back decades in some TV markets. Ask SMU what happened to their fan base after they were given the death penalty ? They never freaking recovered! So now you're going to ask a Club who's already competing with billion dollar franchises from the NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA to take the death penalty? It's not a smart idea and if you love soccer in this country then you will not want to see this happen

[@isaacgogna9856]

Love reading all the takes in the comments

[@Chris-25-h]

is there any hypothetical chance that one day mls purchases usl and all teams under usl banners and then implement promotion/relegation from there?

[@davepazz580]

No, because the entire foundation of MLS is the "single entity" league model where all the teams are owned by the league itself and are permanently part of the top tier... So MLS teams can't "leave" the top league and play independently in any other league but MLS (which is the top tier).

[@Chris-25-h]

@@davepazz580 true but if they did buy usl and then have a stake in all of those, by then more established clubs, then relegation wouldnt be as bad because it would still be a mls club getting promoted the other way. if you catch my drift?

[@davepazz580]

But people investing in MLS aren't looking for a situation where it "wouldn't be as bad"... they are signing on specifically to have a stake in only one, single top league. If they wanted anything to do with a second division, they would have gone to invest in the USL.

[@robertosborne8694]

Unfortunately in the North American franchise model of sports, I think if you try to introduce relegation, you’ll just have a bunch of lawsuits, since the owners bought into MLS, and their expectation is that they are going to play in this league. In the rest of the world the league systems grew organically so pro/rel was built into the systems. In North America all you need is the right amount of money, a big enough market and interest and a team from USL can essentially buy their way into promotion, but I don’t think that once a franchise is in they will be amenable to a pro/rel system.

[@wckvn]

No MLS team will ever agree to this. Speaking of big countries with crazy travels... Russia is huge... Teams from Vladivostok, Nakhodka and Khabarovsk (all the way to East) separated by 7 hours with majority of teams (and 8 hours with one team). That was crazy.

[@favianrenkel5486]

GOATED episode! Two GOATS!

[@MLSMoves]

My guy!

[@ArmandoArias-yp7ff]

Would MLS teams be demoted to USL and the USL championship ? Where would mls teams at the top get promoted to ?

[@Coolwhip899]

I disagree with the kind of club "survival of the fittest" strategy when it comes to growing soccer in our country. The worst thing that could happen to soccer in any market right now is a club going bankrupt

[@mikexstad1121]

US Open Cup issue was the final nail in the coffin of my MLS interest. Of course we should have pro rel.

[@user-is1xu1dp9b]

the Argentina top division have 28 teams but 15 of those are from Buenos Aires

[@davidday2373]

Bundesliga will add Playoffs, La Liga will add a Salary Cap, England will add College Soccer, before MLS adds Relegation.

[@maumor2]

You forgot "PSG will win the Champions League"

[@khalilshahyd9063]

Pro/rel in america WILL NOT begin with MLS. They could only be forced to negotiate it if USL does it first and has enough success to make MLS worry.

[@filibertoperez6356]

MLS is a private single-entity, run by NFL billionaires who are in MLS to protect their assets. Now, it’s cool that USL has been working on implementing pro-rel. However, non-profits e.g. USSF and their state associations I believe should (ideally) have the resources, control, and will to implement pro/rel. Pro-rel should start first by the state associations in their state leagues (up to 4th tier). Maybe USSF should start planning two independent pyramids - state and national.

[@pcoleman1971]

People always say there is no repercussions for a team that is playing poorly. Really?? Name me a team at the bottom of the table which has sold out stadiums. Teams that perform poorly lose fans, and thus money. Tactical Manager has said he doesn't watch other sports. That’s not the typical sports fan in America. MLS is not competing with other soccer leagues. It's competing with the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL.

[@ecbennyj8078]

I would rather watch USL with pro/rel than MLS any day of the year! Unfortunately, my team is not part of USL. I live in Temecula, CA and we play in the NPSL league which is third tier. Next up would be Inland Empire FC which encompasses my city. They play in UPSL which is a third tier team as well. I hope that if pro/rel happens that ALL lower tier clubs are included so that my city can be represented 🤞

[@diegovaiasuso8535]

San Diego FC will represent Temecula

[@DarvinLemus]

Tac your theory does not match the Uruguayan where kid and young kid play to WIN every trophy 🏆 not just to participate and develop. They have to WIN

[@khalilshahyd9063]

US soccer needs it because the country is so large.

[@TheMufasa714]

MLS West VS MLS East maybe 20 teams in each conference bottom three of each conference gets regulated to MLS2/ULS

[@davepazz580]

Not possible in a single entity league... any team in MLS is by definition, a permeant part of the top league.

[@khalilshahyd9063]

A closed MLS system is still MLS. We need a system that allows the federation to manage soccer in this country rather than allow 30 corporate franchises to run it. To do that we need an open pyramid organized into state and regional competitions accept for the highest tiers.

[@cnjdev]

pro/rel involving MLS will only happen within MLS itself, divisions MLS1 and MLS2; each division plays a balanced table; teams pro/rel between them; top team in MLS1 wins the MLS Championship; MLS Cup involves a playoff tournament featuring most of the MLS1 teams and the top MLS2 teams

[@BarDownBully2508]

I still don't think 20 and 20 works. The country is too big. You'd have to have REGIONAL leagues with 20 teams each. To make it where there is enough support you have to keep markets engaged. College Football is the model. They have regional conferences and then instead of the college football playoff they could have like a national Champions League. Your champions are regional and then your Super Cup is where the top 3 or 4 regional teams have a Champions league type tourney. Now in that model you wouldn't have pro/rel yet. To get there would take all these smaller teams getting up with MLS teams. Then once you get that setup you look at smaller local teams and build a REAL scouting system based off of that. That would honestly weed out college soccer at that point. But when you have 4 to 5 regional leagues with 20 teams each you'll have to have a ton of support to build a localized teams underneath that. THAT is a situation where maybe you wouldn't need pro/rel here.

[@maumor2]

Are fans ready for their team to be relegated? Is there going to be a pyramid? Could a team go all the way down to Saturday morning league? Lots of questions but at some point is going to happen

[@sergioauvert525]

IMO - Pro/Rel in America will never happen. First, the US is the motherland of capitalism; it’s all about the Benjamins. No business entity (Team) is going to allow that to happen. They already have fans and commercial contracts to make money whether they win or lose. There is still a vast list of cities to explore. The Federation is part of the system, whether they accept it or not, and they won't touch the MLS. It's a sad thing, of course, to see two leagues competing in the same country. But it’s also something cultural. Fans will not flock to the stadium in masses of 20k+ seat stadiums to watch a game on a lower league. MLS has been very successful in the last decade or so. And they are just about to start with the 2026 World Cup coming. The 36 or 40 teams will arrive sooner than we think. And MLS won’t have mercy. They will go after the top markets currently under USL. It’s just a matter of time. Most USL also want to go up to MLS and rip the fruits of that higher level. MLS brought Messi to grow the business and its footprint. It’s happening!!

[@Rhmone111]

Belo canal meu irmão, só a blusa que é feia! Kkkkkk parabéns

[@ronridenour243]

Americans would not, do not, and should not care about pro/rel. If America had the best players in the world, Americans would watch. Adding pro/rel absent getting the best players will not make a top league. I believe pro/rel fans (Tac) are advocating a system where the top teams can spend what they want and get the top players. I would be happy with that but the only way that would happen is within the MLS or without the MLS. An open system will never happen while MLS exists. While we have MLS I would suggest MLS to start MLS Premier to start in 2027. Fifteen teams would buy in to MLS premier for 200 million each and play 28 games home and away. The 3 billion raised would be used to raise the salary budget for all 30 teams from about 10 million to about 20 million for 10 years. MLS premier teams would get 3 additional DP’s and 3 additional international slots. MLS could market MLS Premier as “you just say the top players in the world in the World Cup. Now come see them on your local team.” Now we are talking about a top tier with five DPs, four under 22s and 20 million to spend on the other 11 players of the 20 man roster. With this, MLS premier will be able to dominate our region and compete with most leagues around the world that are not England or the top one to four teams in the other top four leagues. MLS cup could still exist as a tournament for all 30 teams with a CC Cup berth as the prize. MLS would still have playoffs as well but those would just be to get to MLS Premier. This system would be a way for the teams that want to spend to be able to buy into the ability to do so and allow the other teams to still get the extra cash but not have to compete with the big boys.

[@xaaviaudreek4859]

pro rel is essential to grow soccer in the us

[@nohbuddy1]

Absolutely is not. US sports are based with teams in big media markets.

[@FloridaManX]

Filippo is wrong about the soccer culture in the US. Soccer is one of the first team sports kids play, then they branch out to other team sports.

[@GuloGulo420]

MLS literally just expanded MLS Go this week for the "5 year olds" you speak of. Way to do your research.

[@filipposilva7118]

Lol, problem solved right? That reaches out to the entire country? 😂 Ffs man, do your entire research before trying to act smart.

[@bradenhazle4378]

It was likely recorded a week or 2 ago. And it's just for California and New Jersey, not crazy significant.

[@juanurquieta1480]

Galaxy has been shit for 10 years and counting. 😂 so very true.

[@FloridaManX]

This whole notion that we gotta be like Europe is pretty stupid. NFL is the closed systems and makes more money than the PL.

[@db-lc6gp]

I know in Mexico if you finish on the bottom of the league you pay a $ penalty to the League, maybe this is something the MLS can also incorporate. The top 4 teams get a bonus of $1m and the bottom teams pay $1m for getting it all wrong, this would also help to give clubs motivation to not Finnish last. The money would not be something the club can use for salaries but they could use it for facilities, maintenance, or just pocket the cash as profit.

[@davepazz580]

The problem is you're referring to MLS teams as "clubs" but that's not really what they are... A "club" is a totally independent, self-sustaining entity unto itself, it could play in any league or any division it pleases... MLS teams are "franchises" meaning they *belong* to the league itself (i.e. not individual "clubs"). All the teams share revenues when it's a franchise system... by asking team to pay a monetary "penalty" you're really just taking money out of the exact same source that already belongs to the league anyway - it makes no sense. It would be like saying "If I don't finish my project by Friday, I'm going to fine myself $100 and give that money back to myself"... it doesn't work that way. The only ones who need "incentives" to perform are the individual players and coaches, since they are the only ones that are paid to deliver wins, that's it.... the playoff system renders lack of pro/rel inconsequential.

[@db-lc6gp]

@@davepazz580 It is individual clubs, you have over simplified the process and what the MLS is. Any soccer league in the US will try everything they can to save a team and keep it in their league but why would any ownership group want to leave the MLS it is one of the most profitable leagues in the world. Every club in the US and Canada would like nothing more to be playing in the top league but lack the resources and fan bases to do so. A franchise would be like a Slurpee, burger or coffee joint who sells their products under a single banner. With every store selling and looking alike. The MLS is more than a single banner. The league offices have their own staff of accounting, sales, management, media, charities, sponsors and referees to manage the league/games etc. the individual clubs has their own front offices, accounting, sales, management, media, charities and academies and most have a b-team for developing players, each club decides which age level their academies participate in and what style they play. This is what makes it a club, there is more than one team each club having their own style, coaches, players, sponsors and staff and each team profits individually from selling players and attaining their own sponsors. Also you would not pay and get paid the same money (out one pocket into the other). For the bottom teams paying a penalty for being horrible, the money could go anywhere, for example to a charity, to the Leagues front office to pay for more media, or staff, it could go to MLS Pro for better glasses, or it could be divided amongst the other clubs that did not finish at the bottom or it could go to those teams who finished at the top, or it go to the US open cup to make it better. You over simplified the process. The MLS is not merely a franchise, they pick and choose who they do business with. Its not simply a matter of an organization wanting a seat at the table and giving the league a check as a franchise would be. A franchisee could care less where you wanted to open your store if you had the franchise fee your in regardless, the MLS is much more discreet and the clubs are much more individualistic. This is why some clubs play with a certain style and formation. Some clubs strive to be the best no matter the cost while others are ok with being mediocre. A franchise would be much more restrictive on how you spend your money and what you present to their customers than what the MLS does.

[@davepazz580]

No, MLS teams are *not* "individual clubs"... they are *franchises* which are created when investors "purchase into" the entire league - look it up. This means that no MLS team can "leave" MLS even if it wanted to... the team creation, name, logo, etc. *all* belong 100% to the league itself. Even the contract that players signs isn't with any individual MLS team but with the league itself... Of course, each team does have "offices" dealing with local issues (finances, media, local team budgets, etc.) with local "staff" as does *any* paid franchise in any other industry... and yes, each team has its own youth development academy in place. But that doesn't change anything about MLS being a single entity league and the teams *not* being fully independent... if they were, they would be able to get up and move to play in any other non-MLS league, but they can't legally do this. Years ago, when the San Jose Earthquakes "moved" to Houston, the new city couldn't use the same team's name since MLS decided that the "Earthquakes" logo and uniforms would remain in San Jose should another franchise come into existence there in the future (as eventually happened years later)... Now compare this to other sports leagues where a team that moves usually keeps their name just with a new city represented (such as the Raiders of the NFL)... this is because those teams are individually owned so the owner can name their team whatever they want, unlike MLS. Also, don't compare a sports franchise to a normal "business" franchise too closely because there will be some differences... but even so, a corporation that franchises *will* care very much where an investor would propose to put a new franchise - they actually have a lot of restrictions and rules about how to run the operation and where it will be located, otherwise no franchise will be granted (the corporation has an image they have to keep up regardless).

[@devincordell]

US Soccer needs Pro/Rel. Soccer in this country will always be held back without it. MLS is a garbage league. USL should implement it and open up the pyramid to surpass the MLS and we can finally start developing more talent in this country.

[@r2dad282]

According to US Soccer Reform on X, over 165 professional clubs have failed during the MLS era. Why does USSF not care that so many clubs and their fans get the shaft?

[@ricopo3522]

I don't see anything close to a level of support for soccer's top league that justifies it. In the end, professional sport comes down to money/investment/profit. There's zero precedence in this country of a minor league team in any league in any sport getting significant support- making money, let alone an entire minor league. Where does the revenue come from- how do you sell the idea to past and future investors?? At the moment, MLS seems to be doing everything it can to squash a 2nd tier, not support it. Let's do the work to establish a strong, viable, competitive, heavily supported 2nd tier and we can talk, but I think we're putting the cart before the horse speaking of relegation at this point.

[@btopines9922]

The absence of pro/rel perpetuates mediocrity...

[@davepazz580]

It perpetuates stability...

[@jchristo4180]

MLS owns every team in the league. The people we erroneously refer to as owners of clubs are actually investors in the league who get to operate a team. And most of these investors/operators never would have invested in the first place if pro/rel was a thing. MLS is never going to relegate a team they own to another league and promote a team they don't own to MLS. And if you're thinking that sounds like an antitrust situation and someone should file a lawsuit, that already happened. In 2002. Fraser v Major League Soccer. Spoiler alert: Fraser lost. So please stop talking about promotion and relegation in US soccer as if it's a possibility. It's not. It's never going to happen no matter how badly you may want it.

[@JayKizzyify]

I believe in the effectiveness of Promotion/Relegation in the United States. Throughout my life, I've consistently backed the second division, whether it's in baseball or basketball. In such leagues, it's only the players who experience promotion or relegation. Witnessing an underdog player rise from the G-league to shine in the NBA, like Alex Caruso or Gary Payton II, is truly inspiring. So, why not apply the same concept to teams? Imagine if someone in my community established a soccer team just five minutes away. Why wouldn't I lend my support? In the middle of New Jersey on a Wednesday, if tickets are affordable and the quality isn't lacking, why not attend a soccer match and cheer for friends and acquaintances? Particularly knowing they have the chance to ascend to the top tier. With MLS teams, few have that deep connection to a team; it's more about individual players. That's why Messi's impact is significant-he draws crowds, not necessarily loyalty to local clubs. However, grassroots clubs foster a different dynamic. Supporting NISA, USL, and UPSL feels more genuine and community-oriented than the MLS. These leagues are more attuned to their supporters' desires, which is why I throw my support behind them.

[@davepazz580]

It really only works in countries where soccer is the national obsession or doesn't have too much competition for fans from rival sports leagues.

[@Stewy-xw9fz]

Pro/Rel is the only way. Any other way would be uncivilized.

[@davepazz580]

The opposite is actually true...

[@geraldihezuru2178]

It should happen if not the league will die

[@davepazz580]

It would have died long ago if it had...

[@stevenygabbyperez695]

MLS could become the biggest league in the world, and there will still be people saying it will never work unless we have pro/rel. 😂😂😂😂

[@Juiced5dueced]

Listen to the podcast? Tac clearly states this is a U.S. Soccer issue - MLS is only following the blueprint of the other leagues in this country (killing smaller leagues, closed system, owned by billionaires who run the league). If not MLS it'd be USL. Pro/Rel is a pro for the PLAYERS, fans, and clubs and a con if you've invested .5 billion to own a team.

[@GuloGulo420]

Please don't give "Tactical Manager" airtime. The guy's a KZbin soccer version of Skip Bayless. He gives nothing but wild, baseless hot takes that fire people up for no reason

[@1donjuego]

If you bring Tactical Manager on you forfeit all of your credibility. He is a credibility black hole from which no reason, insight or credibility escapes.

[@TacticalManager]

Name a single reason for what you are claiming.

[@r2dad282]

ad hominem attacks are the tactic of someone who has no ideas of their own. Try harder. Even you can have a cogent thought. But you have to try.

[@NoName-rq6bg]

You know how fresh and different MLS would be for americans if it had pro/rel, no playoffs and no salary cap? And MLS is still not taking that chance and still wants to be like the others, boring.

[@ZeroFamilon]

Kind of a hypocricy, don't ya think? So fresh and different to completely copy the top football leagues in the world. The reality is that US sports culture and European sports culture are two completely different animals. What works in Europe isn't guaranteed to work in the US. I'm not necessarily against pro/rel. But give specific arguments for how it will improve MLS. Not just "that's how the Prem does it" sort of stance.