MMOs ARE THE WORST FOR NEW PLAYERS

[@Qazqi]

The best part of this was someone saying in chat that they put the stun ability after the one that benefits from the enemy being stunned. That's absolutely what you'd expect a new player who's a bit more familiar with the genre to notice, but it's still pulling one over you in that the stun is only 1.2s and the gcd is 1.8s, so it's literally impossible to synergize those two specific abilities, but said familiar new person has no way of knowing that.

[@aidam6152]

Also I don't play rs3, but why is called revolution bar? That name sounds to me like it should execute the abilities sequentialy, but from the video it looks more like usage priority?

[@hiitsjustdee]

@@aidam6152 The priority is left to right usually(but In this case, top to bottom) as they are available, and each ability has its own cooldown period. So some are used multiple times before it gets to the last one.

[@Qazqi]

@@aidam6152 I don't know why they named it revolution, but you could think of how it works as either way if you want. It goes left to right and always uses the leftmost ability that is available. That has a sequential nature, but each ability has a cooldown, so some abilities will come back up before the others are done, leading to the priority aspect. For example, sonic wave (with a magic staff) has a 5s cooldown, so if it's first on the bar, revolution would pop that, then two other abilities, then back to sonic wave and so on. That's roughly how your actual rotation is supposed to go, too.

[@Demilak]

To be fair, it also has the stun and ability that gets a bonus from stuns so that way the revolution bar loops back around to that damage ability as the next skill, but that still doesn't fix the issue of those skills not working together because of stun duration, or the fact that as soon as you get a 5th ability that combo would go out the window. When I played RS3 I just copy pasted a rotation from the wiki. Except the problem with that is those from the wiki, is they tend to include abilities that are quite a process to get so you kinda gotta just figure it out anyway... That aside, I think the biggest quit moment a lot of RS3 players have is trying to figure out the UI. The base UI is so bad and it's cool you can customize it, but I feel like the base one should be serviceable.

[@michaellopez9733]

@@Qazqi It's called revolution because it was meant to be the evolution of the evolution of combat. Not intuitive to new players either. But then again most of RS3 combat is not intuitive. Why you would have an ability that does increased damage to stunned targets and is basically worthless beyond that and have a basic stun that lasts for less duration than the CD is beyond me. You have to almost sit down and read all the abilities and compare them to even see if they are worth using because they all basically just damage.

[@OneOfTheLoveless]

It's nice that mmo designers concluded that not playing the game was the funnest part about a game.

[@TylerMcVeigh1]

As weird as that sounds, that is a massive W in the Runescape community's eyes. The goal for most players is to play the game as little as possible for as long as possible.

[@Dan_Kanerva]

@@TylerMcVeigh1 that's sad...

[@TylerMcVeigh1]

@@Dan_Kanerva It is but it's also a testament to how unfun/slow some content is in the game. It's getting better but most skills are just slow and uninteresting at a point. OSRS has been trying for years to make skills more fun and interactive with varrying levels of success.

[@ButtTrauma]

"Actually playing games sucks" -gacha gamers

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

you're just wrong lol.

[@keiyangoshin3650]

Thanks to Josh ‘diving deeply’ into video games, I now look at them differently. I’m happy for it myself, but being analytical, or at times pedantic, can be a double edged sword. 😅

[@Lucyller]

knowledge is a terrible thing to enjoy new things. You will always compare it to thing you've learn and experienced before. That's why it's so easy for young people to enjoy anything really. Most of the time they don't have the backing to know "it's shit". Still, read guys! Read, play, experience things. Being jaded at one point is totally worth the risk of experiencing so many things. Just remember why you're jaded, and why some aren't. It's neither their fault for still enjoying it nor your to be fatigued.

[@zanec14]

@@Lucyller 100% with this.

[@igreshi]

He even taught you the word "pedantic"

[@WillACarpenter]

Those things would happen with exposure to the games. The difference is now you have a language to communicate the feelings you're having.

[@Nikelaos_Khristianos]

Thing is, dismissing criticism as being pedantic is arguably more unhelpful. Like if you feel like you can’t critique something for fear of sounding pedantic, then the source cannot handle the criticism. Being pedantic also tends to have quite firm boundaries around it, you know it when you see it. Which is why it’s equally frustrating when legit critique gets dismissed. Fair enough, if someone says, “But I’m having fun despite your criticism.” But if they say, “You’re just being pedantic” because you found a fault with something that they like, then that tends to cross the line into being dismissive. Like for example, Pokémon games are atrocious about tutorials because they still insist on explaining things (in very uninteresting ways) to the player even though they have been playing for 12 hours. But bring it up and it gets met with, “But it’s a kids’ game though” as though that justifies it and dismisses quite legitimate criticism as being pedantic.

[@Beltorchika12]

I'm spanish and I started playing runescape back in 2006. I absolutely loved the old tutorial island and I think that's what hooked me to the game (I don't play anymore but I still have really good memories about it). In my case, being a native spanish speaker mattered because the tutorial (and then the rest of the game by interacting with npcs and chatting with other players) taught me about the game AND it taught me english as well. I also really enjoyed the little mechanic about combining ores in the furnace to make different metals and so on. It was such a great experience.

[@brett_norris]

I love to hear stories like that! If you're looking for some nostalgia, and you may already know this, you can play Old School Runescape and it has that original tutorial island before it plops you down in Lumbridge.

[@TheAuzman466]

@@brett_norris Tutorial island is actually still in RS3, they brought it back in 2018. Thing is, after tutorial island they plop you down in Burthorpe so you can do... more tutorial.

[@brett_norris]

@@TheAuzman466 Whaaaa they brought back tutorial island? That's awesome. Even if the rest of the game is unappealing to me.

[@jaimerivera2382]

You hit a very good point at the very start of the video and it's something I ran into early on in my current job - and that's sometimes, experts forget that beginners exist. They have this vast foundation of information and knowledge about a specific subject and forget the foundational stuff. We had to get trained to do something in an old legacy program that our company was in the middle of offboarding. Well, the trainer was used to the system - she understood everything about it. So, when she was training us in how to do a reconciliation, she didn't go over where this data was even coming from, assuming it was either rote knowledge or something that everyone listening should already know. This caused the entire process to fail because we didn't have the foundational knowledge to even *understand* the intermediate knowledge we needed to perform our tasks. The training was lost on us because we didn't know the basics first.

[@3vercent]

Guild Wars 2 has the little racial introductory area where it explains the basic stuff, and then while you level to 30, it slowly unlocks powers and explains them. The first 30 levels of the game are just a tutorial, but you don't really notice because it just feels like playing the game.

[@iller3]

I think the vast majority of people realize this in hind sight. It's something they **could** have extended all the way to the Arah region if they wanted to, but to kind of Neg the game a little as being Anti-Complex, it's really not even as complicated as the First game was so it will probably **never** need a longer tutorial.

[@MyNameIsSalo]

@EL it is still explained in 5mins though, except its in 10 lots of 30 second segments rather than in a single 5minute block. Like if you play a metroidvania, 99% of the game could be considered a tutorial as you are continously unlocking upgrades to navigate the area and each upgrade comes with a short explanation and a demonstration on how to use it. Rather than sitting the player through a long 10 minute intro section explaining every feature, it locks those features until later and dumbs down the start of the game to ease the learning curve. But no one complains about this, so many open world or exploration type games do this.

[@thorscape3879]

The thing about abilities is that 80% of the game does not care about them. If the game did force you to stun an enemy to damage it that knowledge would be equally useless as no enemy functions in that way. To note as well. This is the fifth version of the tutorial. Older versions did tell you how abilities worked and how to best pair them with thresholds and ultimates. New and old players said the information was useless and didn't like the game "holding their hand".

[@bumbleknees6819]

Wildstar was one of the few games that made all the skills you had useful in some form, shame it was cancelled

[@banisherblade]

It's not about creating an enemy type that can only be damaged by stuns, it's about introducing the very concept of STUNNING to a person who's never played a game before, let alone used that terminology and then following it up with an attack that benefits from that status. To you and I who probably have years of gaming experience, stunned and cc are terms that may as well have been hardwired into our brains. But for a 10-years old trying their first game? A normie who's never even touched a controller? 'Stun' itself isn't even as intuitive a term as say... freeze. What is a stun, how are they stunned? Did we emotionally attack them? Are they amazed at us and joining our party Persona style? What is a bleed? Ive bled irl before, but does a skeleton or a golem bleed? Depends on the game I guess. The game doesnt have to give you a popup every 3 ms, but it would probably be helpful to give us a skill, and then present an enemy tailored to use that skill against to show its result, rather than just automating it and assuming the player know what it does.

[@thorscape3879]

@@banisherblade I know that. What I'm saying is that Jagex is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. If it introduces stuns in the tutorial the player will never ever interact with one outside of a PvP experience, thieving, or until they reach the late-game bosses. The first three iterations of the tutorial DID explain stuns, bleeds, and binds (yes they're different from stuns) and players both new and old said they didn't like having it explained to them. It wasn't the method of the explanation, it was the existence of that explanation they didn't like. So what is Jagex to do in this situation? They've done it both ways and people whine and bitch about both approaches.

[@bumbleknees6819]

@@thorscape3879 I think a good middle ground is to have debuffs become a keyword in the skill like how they do in card games like hearthstone for example: Slash: strike enemy deeply wounding them for 150% weapon damage and apply BLEED BLEED: apply 150% weapon damage over time something simple that show what those things are doing for people who want to know but doesn't explain it for people who dont

[@thorscape3879]

@@bumbleknees6819 The game does do this. When you are afflicted with a status hovering over that status tells you what it does and how long you have left being afflicted by it. If you go to the "powers" window you can see what every ability does, how to unlock it, the activation requirements, and its cooldown timer.

[@josecampos7157]

The problem with all these abilities is that there is a meta order much like other games. It requires much input to do the same as an auto. So we get revolution, basically the same as where it all began. Starting with less abilities but with more strategic importance is better to start off with. More abilities can be added later as long as they (a) don't make old abilities useless and (b) they add something new to combat.

[@MsMiDC]

Long time rs3 player here, the combat system is really cool, and is very rewarding to learn. But doing/learning it all by yourself is just impossible.

[@TheAuzman466]

This, it absolutely requires a wiki or a cabal of experienced friends to help you.

[@MoldyLunchb0x]

I've been playing RuneScape for over 15 years. I'm maxed. I have only used Revolution. I used legacy before Revolution++ and used momentum before that.

[@TheAuzman466]

@@MoldyLunchb0x Right, but even when using full revolution there's an order that you want your abilities in to maximize DPS. Plus there are some abilities you don't want in your rotation because their damage is too low, and you unlock new abilities as you progress. I could go on, but point is it's not an incredibly difficult system, especially for those of us who have been using it for years as it's changed and evolved, but there is almost nothing in-game to teach players what they should be doing outside of placing new abilities on your bar as you level.

[@MoldyLunchb0x]

@@TheAuzman466 I literally just look up the optimal bar and don't even think about it lmao

[@TheAuzman466]

@@MoldyLunchb0x so like I said, a wiki is necessary

[@Bonlaws]

Seeing someone in chat say *cries in Warframe* is too real, I played since Beta, and I have no idea how a new player gets into Warframe

[@kittyanya]

Warcraft did a small update on a Tuesday and I logged onto my priest. I got a small box that said my talents have been changed. SO I put the points back in and proceeded to run around the game with dead spells on my bar for a day until my friend told me 2 dead spells were taken away according to patch notes. But blizzard doesn't really announce patch notes anymore. So now I know to check patch notes on a MINOR update to see if spells were taken away. For a new player playing a boosted character to play around might not understand that or one who had a spell taken away might not understand a greyed out spell isn't waiting for power to activate, it's just a dead spell now you have to remove. Blizzard is now confusing old and new players alike. I'm not enjoying it. I shouldn't have to open my spellbook and look at it, then my bars and see what is now missing.

[@chronoatog5650]

I think this is a big issue I have with a lot of MMO's, especially modern MMO's in a bizarro fashion. I would say every top MMO fails this FFXIV/WOW/GW2/etc The game uses 1 to max level as a giant tutorial to teach you your class, or hope you learn your class but never directly teaches you, class mechanics and hopes you learn. But the issue is it's designed the whole way through as if you never learned til max level. 1. Since you're not required to really play the mechanic, and you might see really good players standing in the mechanic you're supposed mechanic can't be used to weed out bad habbits from new players as you expect those not at max level to know nothing. So monkey see-monkey do sorta way your skilled players are teaching them to ignore mechanics or it's not a big "deal", which isn't true at the end game. 2. A group of bad players don't react to mechanic or fail them, but learn "oh hey, this is something we can ignore, just stand in the fire.", and then they get to the endgame, thinking the healer can fix all their issues. 3. They've learned the mechanics but since the game can't trust them to solve 1+1=2, at level 59, one level from max. The game feels like a 2000 hour tutorial and is boring to them. The game doesn't have to be darksouls prepare to die levels of death around every corner type gameplay, but when an MMO like Wizard 101 a game meant for kids or Wakfu, a mmo made for preteen's like the show is for, is more challenging then most modern mmo's at early level as it teaches you the game, it completely has me questioning mmo design.

[@tickledpickle5671]

I equate the ability to 'rewind' and look at mechanics from a new player's eyes to Empathy. It works in a very similar way, some people cane do it, some people can't. I personally spend much of my time in MMO's helping out new players as I find them. I may hand them some money for teleports/travel expenses, whatnot. But mostly I explain things they tell me they don't understand. In my opinion, new player retention is the most important thing for an MMO's long-term health.

[@Bynbrooke]

As an avid RS3 player. I am soooooo happy to hear you eloquently describe and showcase these issues. The game CAN be one of the best MMOs ever/out there as the "endgame" is one of if not the best I've ever played. That being said, it's soooooo daunting because of all these issues you have been bringing up recently. Shed some light and hopefully these things can get addressed!

[@starlord225]

I've heard that Josh gave feedback like this regarding Necromancy's release, so I'm hopeful the devs will take this feedback to heart and make some honest combat tutorials.

[@TheAluvisify]

Yeah, the endgame looks pretty damn compelling, but the first few hours of RS3 has to be, no joke, one of the worst new player experiences for any MMO currently out there. OSRS, somewhat ironically, has a better new player experience despite being known for having a more hands-off approach.

[@OlafJorigson]

To be fair, I don't see Jagex caring about early game in Rs3 anymore. I don't know the numbers of Rs3 or how many new players enter (and leave) the game every month/year but to me it seems kinda dead to "never having played Rs3 before"-players. They live of active players and old players that come back.

[@clorcestv]

It's like a friend of yours invited you to play a game. They hand you a full set of dice (up to d100, each of different color) and ask you to roll them. Once you roll all of them, your friend takes a look at them, thinks for a second, then tells you that you have won! And you're sitting there, trying to figure out the rules of the game on your own. You don't know what the rules of the game are, you don't know how your input mattered or even if you had one, you don't know how to lose or win again.

[@feelinghealing3890]

4:44 Then I have never seen a proper tutorial. I have refunded whole games because they decided that until I complete some checklist of stuff that could be integrated into tooltips that I can disable from the main menu, I may NOT start the game I want to play. This was in common genres, stuff that my mother could figure out, 2nd and 3rd entries in a series... The worst offenders "offer" you to not play the tutorial, then lock most of the content behind buttons I am not allowed to click until I finish that checklist.

[@Randomturtle001]

What I think might help, would be when you unlock combat revolution, a box pops up with the 4-5 basic skills in bigger tile, what they do, 4-5 blank boxes. And Text explaining what revolution is and explaining how the order of abilities works. Then telling the player to put the 4-5 abilities in an order they think would be good. This would allow players to read about the bleed, notice the attack does more damage to stunned targets, and notice they have a move that stuns and with that information, set their attacks in what they feel is a "smart order". Therefore after beating the boss it'd feel more like the player did the work as they figured out how to use stuns and moves that work with them. Even if all of the worse revolution orders would still beat the boss.

[@MrLeaman232]

Great take. I've thought for so long that games need multiple tutorials these days. A "I have played this type of game before" or "I haven't" option. As you either get tutorials or intro levels that leave you confused as hell. Or you get ones that make you question why the dev's wanted you to suffer endlessly at 40 minutes of exposition about how to do a mechanic that exists in every game you've played before.

[@Nshadowtail]

RS3 specifically actually *has* multiple tutorials like that, unless they trimmed it down when Davenport released or something. They ask how familiar you are with the game (and MMOs in general) when you first log in, and it drops you either on Tutorial Island or in Burthorpe. The problem is that none of the options explain the combat system beyond "melee beats ranged beats mage, and food heals you."

[@androsh9039]

More MMORPGs NEED to hire Josh as a consultant.

[@MrWilliGaming]

pls no if he is busy consulting we won't get new videos

[@laszlomiskei9138]

Devs/publishers are too illiterate to understand/appreciate the value of such culture ...

[@devastatheseeker9967]

I think eso tutorializes pretty decently even after playing for a while unless you turn off the tutorial popups it will tell you if you should be blocking or dodging and how to cleanse cc in the middle of fighting (without interrupting you) And as you use and unlock more skills they synergize more with each other. Like the fire spells from the dragon knight encourage you to hit a few before using the whip to get more damage and you're always actively using the abilites instead of passively just clicking an enemy once like in runescape here.

[@leezard7696]

Up to a point, but if you want to actually get to a state where you're decent enough for endgame content you HAVE to go to outside sources. Zenimax literally had to change how frost staves work instead of explaining how tanking/aggro works because at zero point do they ever teach you. Hell, last I played people STILL didn't understand it. The way you "learn" combat in that atrocity of a game is by queueing into a dungeon and having the other players get mad at you for not playing your role correctly. Again, a thing that is NEVER explained fully. That's not even getting into all of the intricacies (light attack weaving, item sets, champion points) that game has, historic or otherwise, or the complete dumpsterfire that is PvP.

[@alegend4evr]

This complaint is very similar to the complaint I had with Lost Ark. I picked my class and then boom, I had every ability available to me suddenly, and I felt way to overwhelmed. I was given everything all at once and was expected to start using it all in order to clear things efficiently, but before I could do that I had to read paragraphs of text multiple times over just to remember half my abilities. Now, I hate using WoW as an example, but its does that 100% right (or used to), you would start with a simple ability or two, and as you leveled you got more, and since you got them in a proper trickle, it gave you a more intuitive way of learning all your skills; using them as you get them. It makes the need for a tutorial most void, as the only things you'll really need to explain to people in a tutorial is the most basic of things: movement, how to interact, how to do the most basic form of damage(auto attacks), and how to do one step above the most basic form of damage (how to cast abilities). Then from there they can learn all the mechanics by playing with them in level appropriate areas

[@christopherbonura8709]

As a long time RS3 player, I strongly believe that the revolution bar ruined combat for RS3. I play both games (OSRS and RS3). Playing the game on Full manual was always something that seemed very daunting, you have to know all your inputs, all your things need to be mapped, etc. I was so nervous to try it because revolution is such an easy scapegoat for 90% of players. Just let the game put inputs in for you so you can focus on mechanics. I didnt really start to enjoy combat, let alone get really good at combat until i started playing on full manual. I started by letting the game revolution my basic abilities, and i would manually click on my thresholds and ultimates. Eventually I worked up to be able to manually input my basics as well, then weaving in all my switches for weapons, armor and what have you. Playing on full manual made me such a better player, because it FORCED me to learn all the combat mechanics, abilities, when I should be using certain ones for specific situations, and what have you. In my opinion (not a very popular opinion) RS3 fails with its combat and players immersing themselves in it because it holds your hand with revolution. It doesnt teach you anything about combat, and just plays the game on autopilot.

[@joker123796]

Abasloutly aggre with this, i never liked Revolution when it came out, it felt unnatural to and more of a response to all the player who dislike EOC CaUsE YoU HaVE TO PrEs BuTtoNs, however they went along with it and keeped supporting it, it's a bandge solution to a larger a problem. Runescape 3 gives a player way to many abilities early on and expects a player to learn each and every one which is ridiculous, instead, they should slowly introduce abilities over a longer period of time. so for example instead of getting 70% of all ablites at lv 10 in a skill spread those abilities out over 1-99. Runescpae 3 looks complicated but isn't. Take a game like LoL which I would argue is more complicated, a champion only has 4 abilities they have to worry about and you slowly learn what each one does as you level up, If you go and look at a runescape 3 stream they have all 5 Actions bars maxed out which is insane cause you don't use that many abilities realisitalcy. An action bar is 12 abilities and players play with 5 of them so that's 60 abilities on screen, that is insae Wow doesn't have that many abilities, ff14 doesn't have that nor does lost ark or guild wars 2, its absaloutly riducloses that jagex don't see problems like this and fix them.

[@Zhiroc]

While I can agree with in-game learning, there is also a place for on-demand tutorials. I often put a game down for a long while. If I decide to come back to it, I've likely forgotten how to play. I stare at the screen, maybe bring up a controller map, then just give up, and either restart from the beginning, or just quit and uninstall. Runescape, since you can't restart w/o making a new acct, got the uninstall treatment.

[@dfg12382]

Talking of long tutorials: Guild Wars 1 had a beautiful tutorial, so much that people created dedicated characters to stay there forever. They even managed to get to max level (20) inside the tutorial by farming monsters that had such a high level, you weren't really supposed to kill those in a normal tutorial playthrough, which usually ended at clvl 5-8. These mobs still gave the smallest amount of XP at clvl 19 to eventually reach 20 after farming thousands of them. This was never intended, but players did it and the devs let them have it and even added a title for achieving it. Fascinated me back then, still does today.

[@chrisack7456]

I remember this, the levels of dedication to this was crazy. You had to die to an enemy multiple times next to a res shrine so that the mob kept killing you getting XP, then it levelled up, and you could then kill it for a tiny amount of XP. Rinse and repeat for months...

[@aidam6152]

Idk, pre-searing Ascalon is beautiful and nostalgic, but not that great as a tutorial? Both later campaigns teach the player a lot more imho.

[@Tewlipz]

​@@aidam6152 well strictly speaking, pre-searing isn't the tutorial. Arguably the whole prophecies campaign is a tutorial for pvp.

[@dfg12382]

@@aidam6152 Yea but it was back in a time when it wasn't important to know every mechanic of the game. There was no power or meta gaming for 99% of the players, these weren't even known terms. You just jumped into it and tried random stuff you think would be cool. Good times.

[@iller3]

Even if you leave pre-searing Ascalon.... as long as you stick to the sanctioned missions instead of wandering around the "Alternate" exploration routes, you will essentially still be experiencing a "Tutorial" difficulty all the way up to level 17 .... As long as you don't do the really foolish thing Josh immediately tried to do, which was take the "Villainy of Galrath" quest

[@hsanrb]

Sometimes I feel when I go on reddit or youtube and you always see those posts that go "I'm starting, what are 5 tips I should know..." or 5 mistakes new players do so I don't do them or however they word it. I just want to scream "You decided to try the game, go play the game and try to figure things out before you ask for help..." you haven't even logged in yet and you already feel like your in over your head. Content creators get those easy clicks "5 tips new players should know about X" and replace X with making money, leveling efficiently, starting raiding, what kind of build you should be using. I thought learning MOBA's was hard, then I realized how new players ask the most generic questions before they've even entered a new MMO and spent 5 minutes attempting to learn how the game works. Hang around a low level zone, GW2 "How should I be spending my skill points, what is the best way to level, what class is best for *content type*." Conversation ends when I just say "Play what is fun, you will already perform better when you enjoy your class than using what some idiot on social media says is best. What good is doing +5% more damage, when you are having -99% more enjoyment of a game?

[@Douchemaster_McChest]

I remember when SWTOR first launched they had a tutorial, but for a new person to MMOs, it was confusing to use. You needed a tutorial on how to navigate the tutorial. LOL Anyway, one of the basics back then was that certain primary attributes for certain classes were needed for your character to be effective. For examples, Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors needed Strength, Republic Troopers and Bounty Hunters needed Aim, Smugglers and Imperial Agents needed Skill and Jedi Consulars and Sith Inquisitors needed Willpower. But that wasn't brought up front when first creating your character and class. It was buried in the tutorial that most people just escape out of. I didn't figure out what I needed until after a day and a half of playing the game. My first character was a Jedi Knight (Sentinel) and I was equipping every piece of loot that dropped from mobs, regardless of stat attributes. I didn't know any better. I happened to see buried in the tutorial, by chance, that Jedi Knights required Strength in their gear and the other 3 attributes were worthless to Jedi Knights. But, that was just for primary stats. For secondary stats and tertiary stats, I was clueless until I reached end game and started raiding, finding out all that stuff from other people. Secondary and Tertiary stats such as Power, Endurance, Surge, Crit, Alacrity, Accuracy, Shield, Defense and Absorption. I didn't know what any of that meant leveling up my first toon and how much of each I should have. For example, I thought as a Jedi Sentinel, which is a pure DPS spec, I needed Defense and Shield to keep me alive since I was dying alot while leveling the first time. LOL Also, I didn't understand anything about diminishing returns or caps on stats. I remember I had something like 130% accuracy in my gear when I reached end game on that first character, thinking the more accuracy I had, the better I would be. (110% is all that is needed in actuality for DPS specs.) Once players learned all this, usually from other players in their guild or raid teams, it was easy. The Tutorial did not help whatsoever to explain any of this in an easily accessible way. Face it, most players skip over tutorials anyway. There was nothing worse than pugging an end game raid or dungeon and a few people in the group were wrongly geared. Lot of people in the group would vote kick them instead of trying to help them out in explaining that their gear was wrong and how to correct it. So, those poor souls probably wondered why they got kicked from group. This problem, in SWTOR, lasted until the 3rd expansion (4.0,) with the separate primary attributes for each class. So, SWTOR dumbed it down and combined all 4 primary stat attributes (Strength, Aim, Skill, and Willpower) into one primary stat attribute and called it Mastery. Even the secondary and tertiary stat attributes got dumbed down a little by combining Surge and Crit into just Crit. From then on, each piece of gear, regardless of class and role (DPS, Heals, Tank) had Mastery. New players still had to worry about the other Secondary stats and Tertiary stats based on role, though. Also, the tutorial really didn't explain about rotations and priority systems for your abilities. So, button mashing the abilities based on the "coolness" of such abilities was the thing to do for most new players without understanding what they did or how to combine them properly to be most effective. At first, I didn't realize some abilities were channeled abilities. I assumed all abilities were instant. I'll never forget one time after I reached end game, I was PVPing and I kept clipping one of my main abilities (Master Strike,) because I just assumed by hitting the button the entire action would happen, not realizing it was a channeled ability. One helpful person, after the match, whispered me in chat and asked me why I was clipping my Master Strike all the time. I didn't know what he meant. He explained it to me and over the next few days, for a few hours per day, he would help me on things to make me better, such as rotations, procs, critting on abilities, channeled abilities vs. instant abilities, etc. Learned a lot from him. Wish I knew that from the start. Then after I joined my first guild, I was directed to online guides for each advanced class and learned what parsing was.

[@Ar1AnX1x]

Josh is so articulate it's almost ridiculous

[@lufasumafalu5069]

you do know his face and voice all AI generatd ?

[@Mr_G_VGC]

best example of this is Batman and Spiderman games , they build on the combat over the course of the game and buy the end of it you feel comfortable facing a room of 50 enemies with different defensses , easily dodging and using upto 8 different gadgets to break them down give us all that at the start with no intro and it would be a mess

[@jnicholas846]

Very accurate way of putting it. But honestly that was just the surface. You have to have a certain amount of adrenaline in order to do the ultimates and thresholds. I have been playing this game for 20 years and I never understood or care to understand the combat system. I just play revo++. however Necromancy is going to be a full manual combat style that hopefully will be engaging.

[@charlieinslidell]

Guild Wars 1 has a great tutorial area (pre-searing), so much so that tons of players make characters with the intention of never leaving the tutorial area because it has everything one needs to play, challenging encounters, loot-chasing, economy, and player interactions. And that's just a small fraction of the whole game!

[@keevansixx4185]

heh, i made a toon for pre-searing Ascalon because Anet spent a lot of time making pre-searing ascalon absolutley visually beautiful compared to the depressing broken scorched wastelands after the searing, and it's the only time in the game you get to see a little gwen happily skipping along while she was still innocent, instead of the jaded vengful adult she grows up to be. we made toons in pre-searing to remember what once was, and to enjoy the sheer digital beauty of simpler times. compared to the rest of the core game, pre-searing ascalon at the time was pure visual artistry on display, something that wouldn't be recreated again until Factions came along.

[@iller3]

@@keevansixx4185 the reason for that... was James Phinney. He was their lead "Setting" Dev. He often made dystopian "worlds" almost identical to that in the previous games he worked on too. Especially one called "Sacrifice". He's sorta like Miyazaki making Swamps wherever he can get away with it. He also built some similar Chaotic tilesets later when he worked on "Gigantic" (a 3D Moba)

[@steviep3079]

Pre-searing was so cozy. Still one of my favourite parts of any MMO. I play games notoriously slow and I remember my friends talking about the searing and didn't know what they were talking about. I was so sad to leave the pre-searing Ascalon I kept making players to replay it. Still when I hear that theme music it brings back a cozy feeling.

[@etherraichu]

3:50 when someone beats the main story in a Disgaea game, we congratulate them on completing the tutorial. That's how much Disgaea balloons. In Disgaea 5 your team will be somewhere around level 200 when you beat the main game. The maximum level is 9999.

[@bare_bear_hands]

Good tutorials do not look like tutorials. This reminds me of this one game that needs a tutorial but doesn't have: *Nosferatu.* Old SNES game where an absolute CHAD proceeds to kick and punch his way though Nos' minions, and then punches and kicks Nosferatu to rescue his gf. 9/10 The problem there that needs a tut is you need the dash-slide to pass through low gaps, but you have to figure that move by yourself, with no hints that said move exists.

[@TheSleyar]

i think that the rs3 tutorial turned out this way because of the backlash that EoC faced way back when it was released. people wanted the "simple" back, but jagex still had to push the game forward. so this tutorial became the compromise. so it feels the way runescape was before EoC, simple auto attack combat. this isnt an excuse for how bad the tutorial is tho, just a theory to understand why it turned into this mess.

[@thorscape3879]

This is actually the fifth iteration of the tutorial. The first version did tell you what each ability did and how it worked with other abilities. New and old players complained saying the information was useless.

[@MrSudomacho]

Biggest gripe with rs3 combat is the ability to understand what your shit does and what happened to you. There's no damage meter, there's no combat log, there's no training room, the tooltips give me more questions, the interactions are inconsistent and never explained. Those 4 abilities you mentioned.. doesn't even factor in the fact you're using a Tick system. Doesn't even start to touch on latency, the endless interactions like; 4taa, stalling, cancelling channels.. the list goes on and can be as specific as "does damage calculate when i cast or when it hits the target" which can change from boss to boss and abilities. There's 3 types of Insta-kill mechanics apparently?

[@BloodPatternBlue]

I'm a RS3 player who started back in the Classic days and I've been used to Legacy Combat for a while. When I returned to playing more often again back in 2017, I was a high enough level that as a returning player the whole system felt strange and intimidating. Any enemy weak enough for me to not die to while figuring out the system would also die before I could meaningfully see what my abilities did. Any enemy strong enough to withstand testing would have likely killed me as I was figuring things out. So, I just said screw the new system and stuck to legacy combat. I've only recently attempted using Abilities once again. Once, during the fresh start worlds since it was enabled by default on my new character. Once again when I couldn't clear a quest boss that pretty much required Lunge or Dash in order to not die. I think a more in-depth tutorial as well as offering more skills than easily fit on your revolution bar would go a long way towards improving the combat experience as it feels as though you have relatively little build control beyond "yeah, this is what they give me" until you start getting skill codexes.

[@Branderbie]

Generally I agree with josh on just about everything, that is, until we get to MMOs. The first MMO, and really one of the first 10 or so games I ever played, was Final Fantasy 11. Final Fantasy 11 is a game that on the surface seems to hate its players. It has(had) no tutorial, it's almost impossible to do anything by yourself, there's no quest tracking, no quest markers of any kind, you will die a lot, you lose xp when you die, you have no idea what you are supposed to be doing, the world is massive, and to top it all off for most zones you don't even start with a map. Yet, it is my favorite game of all time, and nothing has ever even came remotely close. And you may think that it is in spite of all of those reason, but it is because of all of those reason. The game just drops you in a massive world with endless possibilities and leaves you to your own devices and it's brilliant for this. There's nothing I hate more in an MMO(really any game) than having to play through tutorialized sections of a game where it holds your hand through showing what all of buttons do and what your abilities do and when to use them and how all the mechanics of the game work. I have fingers I can press all the buttons and figure out what they do, I have eyes I can read the abilities and decide for myself when and how to use them. Are there games where the tutorial isn't bad? Yeah, there's a small handful. But at the end of the day tutorials should always be skippable, besides the very few that are able to just naturally make the game the tutorial(i.e. super metroid). That method is nearly impossible for any MMO though as the amount of mechanics/statuses/abilities in MMO are staggering compared to normal games. That's just how I feel, though, and I assume I am in the minority.

[@thorscape3879]

You can skip RS3's tutorial. It is never required.

[@iller3]

Levels 1-17 in guildwars1 was basically its Tutorial. ...In GW2, it was Levels 1-30. And in BDO it was levels 1-49 which would take most players roughly 6 Hours. If EVE online had an appropriate length tutorial for it Economy, it would take the player 50 hours. And if Planetside2 had one for Piloting, it would take 100 hours.

[@Sayrden]

Some years ago, I introduced someone to WoW. They chose a Worgen Priest, and around level 4 started to die and get frustrated. Why? This player was used to Dragon Quest, where regaining mana is hard. They didn't realize that mana regenerates quickly at that level, and they were supposed to spam the attack spell rather than rely primarily on the basic attack. It's very easy to assume what the player does and doesn't know.

[@cattysplat]

Ironically Classic plays like that. Spellcasters run out of mana and have to rest and drink. They have terrible weak auto attack. Can get a wand that does better auto damage tho, not amazing but OK.

[@Sayrden]

@@cattysplat Yeah, it's changed a lot over the years. I think this was during MoP, but it's been a while.

[@banisherblade]

This. This is the kind of analysis I keep coming back to Josh for. It's nice to see a youtuber who doesnt just say 'ooh shiny' and thinks about the experience as a whole.

[@Lislio]

Lots of people just copy paste from guides anyway, so the game prolly assumes that will be the case

[@BenExclamation]

Also, once you learn to correctly use the revolution mode you have no incentive to stop using it until later. When you start doing some more difficult bosses you are required to correctly use your abilities unless you have gear that is several times stronger than the boss itself.

[@NathTheGaymer]

Hey! im unsure if it was you but saw "you" in rs3 afew days ago at the hole after the necromancy stream Anyways i mentioned that i would love to see a video talking about constructive criticism in general towards runescape 3, how you'd "fix" early-mid game, mini game, combat, ui, graphic, etc all i usually see is talk about "MtX sucks" "EoC bad" but not actual conversation on actual fixes tho at the end of the day i guess(?) it depends on how much money goes back into the game and not carlyle group 😅

[@Kasaaz]

Just the phrase "Lesser Dismember" is kind of hilarious to me.

[@AzzRushman]

Most games either give you a full in-depth tutorial, or none at all. I love it when a game lets me skip a tutorial, but it would be cool if I was also told the tutorial contents before skipping it. Outwards has a kinda lenghty cool optional tutorial, and it deserves one, the game is full of kinda unique mechanics. However, when I learn all the mechanics and realize I'm not struggling anymore, I just get bored with the game, so skipping tutorials give me more joy, because after a while I discover something new. That being said, even if I'm prone to skip every single tutorial in my way, I always read every single line of story, every NPC dialog, and watch all the cutscenes. I just find it fun to learn without a guide, to solve the "how to" problems on my own without helps nor tips.

[@Zack_Wester]

for me whit a lot of tutorial is that it dumps tutorial no matter how relevant it would be for me. like a crafting tutorial right after basic combat. problem is at this point crafting is not relevant. and if I say thanks I skip this Tutorial (crafting) I will never have a chance to learn it again. No what MMO needs is like a classroom system where you tell the game I want to do this class/lession now. and the game would then teach you it. like a example a mmo would as soon as you hit start game. show a list of all the lessons and a short video about what they each are. like basic movement and camera control [class 1 basic stuff]. continius movment class (more what you would find a gimmick dungeon) [Class 2 movement part 2]. Crafting 101 (Just a sumerising of all the crafting skills and what they do and whit what what synergy wow class herbalist+alchemy, or warrior+blacksmith+mining). Crafting Blacksmith (continueon from the 101 but for each crafting skill, fishing is here). and even if a player have done let say socket 101. they can do it again in 1 year after been gone and forgot about it.

[@loongzai8132]

Yeah. Learning to adapt is fine. There's people to ask, guides out there explaining things so it's fine. When I played my 1st monster hunter (World/Iceborne), they never even explained the moveset. You're expected to just learn, and so the 1st weapon I really ended up with without guide was the Bowgun because there's no complexity in understanding how to shoot lol.

[@meyatetana2973]

Mostly from being new the game must pull you in by interesting species to play, classes, items, story everything not singular if you can't pull someone into your game they will not stay, they won't even tell their friends about the game. Also if the start of a MMORPG is not interesting and only puts you into a cash shop the game isn't worth investing time in, or money either. Ive played 5 MMOs now somewhat new ones that push a cash shop on you before you get to even level 10 or the first dungeon.

[@soundrogue4472]

For my spiritual successor to Downwell since I'm making it more complex, for the beginning area I'm adding a tut for the player before they begin the game. It's mostly a "hey journalist, if you can't beat x, then don't even bother with y" sort of game mechanic.

[@Zectifin]

I've played WoW since 2004 and I will meet people who say they are new to dragonflight and they don't know how to do X. I will explain you need to do Y thing to unlock X. (Y being a super basic thing thats been in the game for over a decade). They will then explain that this is their first time in WoW and they are either new to MMOs, or they never played one like WoW, only looter shooters or something with vastly different mechanics. They heard that the new expansion was really good so they figured they'd finally give it a try. I understand some single player/coop survival games with extensive crafting systems not having a massive wiki inside the game and you're supposed to experiment to learn stuff, and if you don't like that or you've done it all but can't remember hundreds of unlock and crafting trees you can just pop out the wiki, but its pretty straight forward. How do i craft X? go get these items. simple. MMOs, especially WoW, have expension upon expansion, each one adding completely different mechanics and different ways to unlock things and lots of old systems that you're just supposed to know. Its nice to be able to explain to these new players, but we shouldn't have to explain super basic stuff. Sometimes they don't even know what to look up in the wiki or even what wiki to go to. you're just supposed to know to go to wowhead, the game doesn't tell you because its not official. You have to have ingrained knowledge to even look the stuff up. Also Warframe, you are the worst at this.

[@TwilightWolf032]

I liked the way Ragnarok Online did skill """tutorials""". Essentially, every time you leveled your class up, you gained 1 point to spend in any skill you wanted out of your tree, but there are more skills available than there are levels, especially because multiple skills could be leveled up 3, 5 or 10 times, each requiring 1 skill point. In order to choose what skill you wanted, you had to hover the mouse over one and actually read the tooltip, meaning you had to know what the skills did before you deliberately chose to add them to your kit, and you also had to plan out the path you would take, so you would be constantly thinking about synergy with your other skills. And to make things better, the number of skills at your disposal were never overwhelming in quantity, so you could always have the path you had chosen in mind even when not having the skills list open. What I liked about Ragnarok Online over FFXIV (even if XIV is the better of the two) is that it gave the player the choice on how to build their own class. I used to play as a Paladin and went for a tankier set with sword and shield at first, but after doing the rebirth thing, I decided to go for an Attack Speed build with lances instead. Same for my priests, which I decided to go melee instead. You can't exactly go melee in FFXIV as a healer and expect to be successful, and all your skills are strictly tied to levels with no branching paths. Despite being the more complex of the two, I think RO is better for new players because it encourages agency and decision making in your character's build. You can't exactly do a build wrong - sure, min-maxing is the meta, but a casual player that wants a bit more HP on their archer isn't doing anything wrong -, and the way the game forces you to interact with other people encourages trading information between players and you can always ask veterans and the game masters how the system in place work.

[@LordJDB]

Played a few games (like eldenring) where I just walkt past the tutorial and didnt notice it at all. After a week there were people on youtube making fun of new players for not using the tutorial instead of pointing em in the right way. In the case of eldenring I stopt playing for a while it was my first souls game and man did I get angry when I was trying to figure out how the game works and every time the horse dude came to kill me.

[@FarelForever]

When I heard "Simpsons Hit&Run" being mentioned, I got confused... "Wait, what? That game had no tutorial!", and only after a bit did I realise that there was one, and that it simply was so interwoven into the gameplay, that I didn't notice.

[@Josh_from_Texas]

Excellent insights. Long time RuneScape player here. Thanks for the vid

[@JoshStrifeSays]

Thank you, sincerely Josh from UK

[@blahlbinoa]

The revolution bar is what made me just nope out of RS3 and go back to OSRS. I wanted to try RS3 and I was enjoying myself for the most part, but as soon as that combat mechanic came up, it completely took me out of the game. I had no idea what any of the things did and the game basically says "just put stuff here and go, just set it and forget it" and that was it!

[@Bjarkenb]

My favorite tutorial is still Goodsprings in F:NV. It's a tutorial I will still play through unless I am doing a very specific kind of play-through. It is immersive, it is encompassing, and it is optional.

[@lillyborah4942]

I gotta say, runescape 3 is not popular because of only 1 reason - it doesn't have anything interesting for low-mid players at all. It only offers good content for people having 99 in skills atleast. Otherwise, its just a race to 99. Its a completely different story for oldschool runescape. which is why its more popular

[@rerere1569]

Make sense, but from my perspective it's actually opposite if you play an ironman. There are so much stuff to do in early to mid game that you might end up quitting simply because it's too much and quite overwhelming for a new player.

[@Aeroreido]

I feel the fact that a lot of stuff is locked behind high stats, but this isn't osrs, getting to 70 cb stats is really fast and you have a lot of content that can be done with not 99 stats. But I understand your concern, having to boost for BGH because it's the only enjoyable hunting activity was kinda disheartening.

[@csguy3223]

The best part of rs3 is the early to mid game if you play ironman. The worst part is the max level content. The endgame bosses get worse and worse. The t92 and t95 content is miserable and requires 100s of hours to see rewards.

[@Dino_Pony]

I feel.. like this is super inaccurate? as an ironman rs3 player I had so much to do at all points, can start bossing very early, questing, skilling just like in osrs. The big difference is that rs3 will race you to the endgame as even on an iron most skills are ~400k xp/hr at 90+ and now im in the endgame between glacor, zammy, solak, raksha, kerapac, zuk are all super fun bosses to do.

[@jollygrapefruit786]

This is very subjective but RS3 just feels very generic and soulless whereas OldSchool has so much more care and attention poured into every corner of the experience. The world feels more like it was built brick by brick rather than just being a series of checkbox filling set pieces.

[@aidenchia3663]

Is this Runescape 3? I actually quit that game because I had no idea that bar was the 'revolution?' bar so I quit because I had no idea what that bar was or how to use it.

[@optimismx1048]

Imma be honest im the odd one out. I played Runescape years and years ago when it was a browser game and fell off eventually playing new games. Then I started watching Josh and hearing about Runescape made me want to play it again so I hopped in without knowing any of the differences between Old School and RS3. I just started playing RS3 and ignored most of the tutorials and just did whatever I felt like doing since I know Runescape in general is that type of game. I think the fact that I was able to do that shows that the tutorial isn't much of a tutorial and just Runescape with a layer of paint over it if that makes sense. Or it just shows I'm a veteran MMO player so I know how these things work maybe a bit of both. I play RS3 very casually and hop on when I feel like it and skill up. I just leveled up my firemaking and smithing during my work hours without doing any quests and chatted to some random players and enjoyed myself. But someone completely new to a mmo like runescape may not really understand they can do these kinds of things.

[@TheSkylire]

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I play games differently from a lot of players. Being annoyed at not knowing what to do in games, got me into the habit of watching guides for almost every game I play. That's why I was always somewhat confused in clans/guilds when players would ask simple questions that a guide could tell you the answer right away. I forget that lots of players simply don't watch guides, they get the knowledge through in game tutorials, trial and error, friends, or just simply playing a game a long time and figuring it out as they go along.

[@s1dnb]

Amen, I can’t stand not knowing mechanics of games

[@Incomestreamsurfers]

I love how this has #shorts as a hashtag when it’s a long form horizontal video lol ❤

[@shockmaker1524]

Okay okay. I get the point BUT! When I first discovered MMOs through pirate WOW servers the only 3 words I knew in English were "Yes", "No", and "Okay". I didn't know anything about the game simply because I couldn't understand the language the game was written in. Yet I played private WoW servers for 10 more years. Slowly, I started understanding different mechanics and more and more words. I do get your POV, however, you kind of want to make every game be extremely noob-friendly with every single detail explained with gameplay, which first would take a lot of time to do, and second kills the exploration part of the game (at least for me). Part of the fun with MMOs and a lot of other genres is the exploration, but not only map exploration, but also exploring your skill set, abilities, different mechanics be it engine mechanics, character mechanics etc. Getting to know everything without putting the effort to actually understand it and kills the fun (for me at least) Currently, I am more into shooters, and discovering new angles, strategies, and overall things I didn't know after spending 1000+ hours in a game brings me a lot of joy.

[@LiveTwinReaction]

Revolution is the only reason I played rs3 again tbh. It makes the combat like OSRS but with more options (defensive abilities, and later threshold/ultimates you also use manually). But I did not ever want to be mashing my keyboard like wow or ff14 so revolution using all basics and some thresholds for me is great. Though if I remember correctly, revolution isn't even good early. Legacy mode was meta until like lv50-60 I think lol

[@miciso666]

Agree games that have good tutorials are those that dont need to even tell you. Like mirrors edge. From the box art u know already. Red means interactable.

[@brocksteele7475]

Here's a question: if there's an ability that does increased damage to stunned targets and an ability that stuns the target, why is the default order to do the damage before the stun? Wouldn't stunning first be better? Maybe, but the tutorial was so unclear that I have no idea.

[@jimmy_20xx]

The overwhelming amount of MMOs that just give a bunch of buttons to click and expect you go like that for the rest of the game, just cycling buttons... It may have been a novelty to be able to use so many abilities in 90s-2000s, but the genre can be better than that, improving with what other genres are doing lately that can be used. And yet, you still have the combat to be "stay there, cycle your buttons, repeat forever". Thanks game, very cool, but I'll be playing another one, though.

[@miklosurmos565]

Yea it looks like they took a button masher game's skill queue feature and put it on a point and click autoattack. It doesn't really give you the satisfaction of combos nor let you see the abilities take place one after the other which really makes the feature more technical than flashy/satisfying.

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

This ia a problem not just with MMO's, but a lot of other complex games, such as sandbox crafting survival games, simulation gaames, economic sim games, grand strategy games, even 4x games, and yes some single player rpgs. It's a wide spread problem.

[@dunkace]

I have to admit, i am a person who loves the idea of getting sucked into an MMO, but every time i usually get bored in the early game or i reach a quit moment, Usually being overwhelmed with text and mechanisms.

[@johnathanbowers5433]

you dive deep into them and are analytical because you understand the making of the game and how it becomes successful without becoming a soulless corporate money making machine. don't put yourself down just because you can articulate what emotions are supposed to be elicited during gameplay, at all stages of gameplay, especially within the MMO genre.

[@mrbubbles6468]

And the great thing is about designers not taking a step back to think about this stuff is. They were just as lost on games when they started out.

[@Harlizarrd]

The important things for runescape 3 aren't even relevent until you've devoted months to it. Protection prayers are pretty easy to get but not explained at all and all the guides presume Soul Split which requires one of the longest questlines in the game. Even basic boss mechanics like requiring a specific combat style/dodging mechanics etc are basically only tutorialised by dungeoneering, but nobody does that cause it's impossible to find as a newbie and it doesn't give you anything in the end.

[@FidelCattto]

I mean they added revolution specifically because people were used to the old style where you just clicked and waited for the fight to be over and were upset they couldn't still do that

[@alexanderrahl7034]

my quit moments are tutorials i cant skip, or tutorials im forced to do. after 24 years of playing video games, im quite well aware of how to move a camera, use WASD and click the mouse. When i feel like the developers are talking down to me like a child, i refund and tell them to fuck off lol

[@Wenedi]

gw2 is a prime example of this. Their early game sucks really hard and they don't care about the core specs

[@knowwhoiamyet]

I tried GW2 years and years ago, I think it was just before the heart of thorns expansion, and I couldn't stick with it. I got something akin to "sidequest paralysis" in which there were so many classes, with each class having an entirely different skill set depending on what weapon they chose. I wanted to try lots of things before settling on a class I really liked and wanted to vibe with... But in doing so I replayed the start of the game over and over, and after my 3rd character restart or so just playing around with the early game class/weapon combos and not finding anything that I really vibed with I just kinda closed the game and never opened it again. I didn't have a moment where I thought "I don't want to do this" actively. I just sorta... Stopped.

[@Wenedi]

@@knowwhoiamyet same here, the weapon skills and abilities feel so meh, no real effort was put into their effects and animations. Even for It’s age, they look terrible. Not to mention half the professions have copied animations, as the developers are money hungry and lazy. Definitely the worst thing about the game is the copium community that cares about the company making money more than making a good game…

[@cancerino666]

yeah, remember playing GW2 in the beta and loving it. recently tried to play it and I'm like "was it this bad? really? wtf this is awful". I don't know what they changed to the early game, but it sucks.

[@vaan_]

I kind of get the same, I've been trying to get through it but it's harsh I'm a bit of a completionist nut, but I also appreciate some direction, so after I was done 100% the main map, I stumbled upon this desert area with some movement powerups that allow you to move around. It felt a bit like a "content island", with mechanics and content specific only to that area. Problem is, I'm barely doing enough damage to things and am really struggling. I look up online and apparently there's not much in the way of gearing, it's mostly about your build, and if you don't have the later unlocked specs you're kinda screwed... Same thing happened just this week, did the living world quest about this tower, every single mob there is a massive damage sponge that just demolishes me even in a group with other players. There's all this cool stuff I hear about in GW2 and I have no idea how to get there, but I also don't want to look it up and beeline to it because then I'm skipping the entire game. There's an order the content is "supposed" to be done that likely lines up with the patch release order, but as a new player I have no idea how to know that without spoiling myself, it's just a mess. For now I've been levelling some crafts (got 2 jobs at 400ish) and started a new character so I can have a different class and crafts available, but have no idea what to do on my main besides follow the story episodes that are available to me (bought the full game edition but that doesn't include all living world? kinda bs move from the publisher)

[@NathTheGaymer]

im in the same boat, tried to play it twice because its the partner favorite mmo but just couldn't get into it, but with that being said i did hear that their going to be fixing the early game sometime in the coming year (need to look more into it myself) so if it true maybe itll be a good time to retry the game 😊

[@Zaiqahal]

I recruited a friend into the MMO experience, and it was a rough transition. This is so true.

[@borasraven7584]

The revolution system sounds like a great system that should unlock at or close to max level for those overly long tedious raid bosses… at a new player level it seems like they’re going “here’s my game look how fun it is, also here’s a system so you don’t have to play it!”

[@thelittleoddling4883]

i hate the revolution system. when i was going through that tutorial I actually tried to turn off the automatic skill usage. it literally would not let me fight on my own. I had to finish the tutorial to turn it off.

[@kalampakos]

Yeah, I really liked the opening to the first Ni no Kuni for that reason. I didn't even understand that the first 10 hours of the game was the tutorial. The game stacks mechanics on top of mechanics but it doesn't feel overwhelming.

[@Bondokill]

I've tried osrs at least 10 times over the years purely from all I love I hear about it from the players. And the fact that it even still exists and still somewhat relevant speaks volumes. Never gotten past the tutorial. Ive tried so hard to like this game, but it's just SO gd boring.

[@Bondokill]

I don't have nostalgia driving me forward. I'm convinced that's the only reason people play it. Because they jjst always have.

[@TheXshot]

This is Rs3, although playing on lowest settings.

[@AJ_Ol]

It isn’t nostalgia, none of us are nostalgic for the game anymore, that wore off at the beginning. To be fair though, the early game is pretty damn boring, but because the nostalgia was so strong, that’s what kept players like me. Now the bossing and raiding and super unique combat is what’s keeping me. It’s a “not the destination, it’s the journey” type of game and if you don’t enjoy that then it’s probably not for you.

[@ElHinchaDelDRAGON]

yo, josh dood if I ever make a survival comedy videogame, I would hire you to make the tutorial part and shit.

[@0194]

I miss the old hitsplats and knowing wtf im hitting during combat now it's animations and eye spam

[@cattysplat]

Most MMO players don't want to learn. They want to mash buttons and cool stuff happens. Learning involves being tested, almost all MMOs have removed challenge, punishment, planning and most of their skills, in place of mindless rotations you repeat over and over. Players also want to follow the meta approved guide to guarantee easy mode and require no thinking or fear of the unknown. If you want actual gameplay that challenges your braincells, play anything else but MMOs.

[@rczarnecki]

Basically Sekiro does it very well. Everybody cursed mikiri counter until it clicked in ;)

[@iller3]

the rhythm just to get into head stomping and Mikiri'ing thrusts was like, a whole new arcade game to learn all itself...

[@SiisKolkytEuroo]

Why is there classic tutorial island on the thumbnail without josh's opinion of it in the video? I have fond memories of tutorial island. What does josh think of it?

[@deformedbrit]

RS3's UI is garbage, almost as bad as EVE Online, holy shit.

[@wabajabatrektoe]

I have never made it past lvl 30 in any mmo except for rune scape when i first palyed and got to lvl 40 on most of my stats before getting hacked😢

[@Acueil]

I played half of Star Ocean 3 not knowing that you can gain extra damage by linking your skills, so I kept using Blade of Fury because I thought it was the most damaging skill. I finished Xenogears once without knowing that there are Deathblow lvl 2 and 3 when you are on gears. Sometimes, tutorial needs to be slapped into your face before you notice.

[@タカトー年1998]

"I know that I have a tendency to dive way to deep into all of these things." Well, actually not really. A normal casual player might not be able to explain the issues/feelings he got in the same way that Josh can, but that doesn't change the feeling most people have for certain parts of certain games. Quit moments/reasons are important to address in order to actually improve. Just saying "I don't have fun" is basically similar to saying nothing. At least if the goal is to actually improve the product in question. So in short: Diving deep into things like this is actually a good thing.

[@calvinwilson3617]

The warframe tutorial (pre-duviri) is a fantastic example of a fun tutorial. It gives you simple objectives and allows you to do them. Teaching by doing

[@TheIridescentFisherMan]

Absolutely agree with everything you've said in general. However the rotation system was introduced to allow players who wanted the game to feel more like osrs and not require them to always be using the buttons like wow

[@-.-Monster]

WoW has the best tutorial. Or at least in vanilla; can't speak on current iterations. But it used to take a few hours to hit level 10 and get that first talent point. By that point you've learned 80% of the game and are well on your way

[@Vogel100]

I've been around since before EoC (to be fair I have taken breaks of several years) and I still don't know how to use abilities effectively tbh. I just pick some that sound good and then let the game use them for me.

[@Redzeths]

I agree with everything but the end. Runescape is about the game doing things for you. The revolutionbar was made so it could be a bridge between osrs and rs3, without it, it would make combat feel extremely tedious more so than it already is to kill 130 of the same monster for slayer. Only in mid-late game are you actually required to actively use abilities.

[@Rebellions]

Personally I enjoy RS3 for what it is, but the EoC's problems actually get a spotlight shined on it imo, when you come *back* from an extended break and completely forget what all the shit you have does. OSRS doesnt have this problem since its very simple on the surface, and its just coming back and remembering how/when to cycle prayers and specific attacks IF you left after reaching a point where learning those mechanics was basically required. But you dont have to try and remember that shit - all at once.

[@sud0gh0st]

any kind of CC in that setup is a big NO NO for me, they are abilities i want to control when to use in pvp this is vital

[@MuwuRS]

Such a good point. all of it, I wish higher ups at Jagex got 2 minutes to watch some parts of this atleast.

[@Grimlock-y6l]

I remember when GW2 leaned heavily into CC when it came to boss battles and told no one it was hilarious,they still haven't explained it in game 😂😂

[@jakew9574]

100% agree, I had the exact same thoughts myself. and in the case of rs3 and revolution it sets new players up for failure when they get to the point they want to do bosses or pvp

[@Cuestrupaster]

Holy shit this video is so good. This is a part so important for game design, and it seems most of the time devs just forget about it...

[@norXmal]

Was initially thinking WoW had good engaging tutorials, but as I came to realized your conclusion, I can't but agree fully, you're left to learn it all on your own or by others. Why isn't there more class specific tutorial questlines that are tailored to teach you, I know Black Desert Online somewhat delved into this, can't say how effective it was.

[@LunarcomplexMain]

For any other game devs out there, please, pleaseeeeee make sure you at least have some people with almost no game knowledge test out your game. There are so many things you assume when designing your own game, even things as "intuitive" as moving with wasd.