MN Alsace (NB) - Guide 181

The Alsace class, the last never-built battleships of the French Navy, are today's subject.
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Music - / ncmepicmusic

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@lordbrain8867]

What would you say is the ideal secondary loadout for a battleship operating in the Pacific in WWII?

[@BikingVikingHH]

USS liberty

[@bt426]

This is Definitely NOT historical. Here the question: The WOWS community has locked the balance dev team in a room with angry bald eagles. But they have put you in charge of a balancing team of community contributors. What 10 things would you change immediately and the other 10 things would you change? (No CV changes because community contributors are biased against carriers, there are better people like TopTier youtuber who knows better, probably)

[@bt426]

This is a alternate history question: How would a modernize HMS Tiger and HMAS Australia (battlecruiser), HMS Nelson and Rodney, and HMS Iron Duke would look like in 1945?

[@marinepixel6325]

what if, after building the two (or three, if you include Shinano) Yamato-Class Battleships, the IJN decommissioned their existing Battleships, in favor of using the resources on more valuable Carriers and Cruisers. how beneficial would this have been, and how would it have impacted Japanese operations?

[@stewartellinson8846]

Whatever their technical strengths and limitations, the french battleship designs were always very handsome

[@Emdiggydog]

A far cry from the pre-dreadnoughts

[@TheNecromancer6666]

Basicly like German Ships in world war two.

[@kennethramonet5421]

French ship design in general, and warship design in particular, has always ranked among the best in the world. Look no further than the 18th century, when even the Royal Navy recognized the superiority of French warships of all sizes. In fact, seized French warships in battle by the Royal Navy were quickly converted to serve and universally recognized to be superior to their British running mates.

[@Panzer_Runner]

French ships are elegant German ships are handsome

[@captaincharlemagne]

The richelieu and dunkerques were beautiful. However the french pre- dreadnaughts however were extremely ugly

[@pyronuke4768]

"Let's build a battleship with three turrets, but with quadruple the guns so everyone knows it's French."

[@pyronuke4768]

"And we'll make it larger than any docks we actually have in service as well."

[@Balmung60]

To be fair, both the US and UK almost did the same - King George V was originally supposed to have that exact layout until weight limit issues forced the superfiring turret to be switched to a twin. Similarly, North Carolina was designed to either take a three quad 14-inch armament, or the three triple 16-inch armament, depending readiness of the turret design and activation of the escalator clause.

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

Of course, since it's French, there's a quad turret configuration. Edit: I like how almost everyone just agreed "Yeah, the French always build Battleships with quad turrets"

[@LiveErrors]

Well if they have a Quad turret then why not? It savnes weight and looks impressive while doing it

[@davefinfrock3324]

The French were committed to them and there were reasons. More guns in the turret means less overall length of the citadel and less weight when you're done. This is especially important when your dockyard facilities are on the small side and you don't want to spend the money (and time) to improve them. The downside is the turret is much heavier and more complex. Shell handling arrangements get especially complicated. I suspect that another generation of battleships and another increase in bore diameter of the main battery might have seen more countries willing to go to quad turrets, despite some of the engineering hurdles that came with them.

[@katrinapaton5283]

I love how everyone says, "French, therefore quad turrets" and seem to completely miss the British King George V class.

[@Graham-ce2yk]

It was not just the French who looked at Quad Turrets, leaving aside the King George Vs, the Americans looked at a quad turret design when they were flirting with the idea of 'Torpedo Battleships', the last iteration had a single quad 14 inch turret forward, there's also a very odd 'seaplane carrier' version of the North Carolina class which had a seaplane hangar/launcher arrangement forward and a pair of quad 14 inch turrets aft.

[@space__idklmao]

Dave Finfrock Another downside is that if one of your turrets is hit and disabled, 1/3 of your armament is gone.

[@leifringvarrsson9519]

Alsace design with 3 quad turrets is one of the most beautiful battleships ever

[@Arthion]

Agreed

[@jimtaylor294]

Not the first though, as one of the KGV's proposed layouts had three quad's.

[@LiveErrors]

Personally i like the Quads

[@jimtaylor294]

Quad's are love; Quad's are life :D . Besides the never built Sextuple Turrets of the Tillmanns', nothing does the 'Angrily waving ones guns around maneuver' quite as well ;-) .

[@eric24567]

meanwhile I see quad turrets and I want to facepalm XD

[@devanis]

I'm actually surprised that never built WW2 era French ships would garner even this small attention, from the British no less. Thank you for your dedication Bravo

[@jimtaylor294]

Well; it pays to know one's [traditional] enemies as well as one's friends ;-) .

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

And so brings the end of Marine National May

[@s.31.l50]

I wonder what June’s theme will be

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

Midway June?

[@merru-mun7414]

My absolute favorite ship. I find the Alsace class to be some of the best looking ships ever designed.

[@John-ru5ud]

If as the Kriegsmarine expected World War II had not started until 1943 or 1944, there would have been enough capital ships in the Atlantic to make Jutland look like small engagement.

[@deeznoots6241]

John 819 there would not have been actually, i think you underestimate just how big of a battle Jutland was, 250 ships in total from both sides of which 58 are Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers. The washington naval treaty and the rapid escalation of scale and cost of capital ships in the early 20th century massively reduced the numbers of capital ships.

[@superspecialsushi8296]

I highly doubt that there were enough infrastructure to even build that many warships. Let alone more capital ships than jutland

[@John-ru5ud]

In terms of destructive ability, having a force of WW II battleships would well be quite greater than WW I capital ships.

[@neniAAinen]

Blame Hitler for ending naval arms race before it could even start properly!

[@dumptrump3788]

True, but then again Britain'e Tube Alloys/MAUD would"ve progressed to the extent that VE Day might have been because of mushroom clouds over Berlin & Munich.

[@admiraltiberius1989]

"Desire to have wine, cheese and political revolutions intensifies" Fantastic video as always Drach. Its amazing how TERRIBLE the first 2/3rds of French Dreadnought/battleship design and construction were. Then at the very end they flipped it around and were making designs that could be considered among the best and very innovative. Shame most of those designs would never see the light of day. Also French capital ships had fantastic names.

[@dancingwiththedarkness3352]

Possible ergot contamination of their bread supplies? Bad snails served out of season? More likely their revolutionary fervor to be unlike any other country and stay uniquely French, at the cost of occasionally looking ridiculous to everyone else. It's hard to see the future with your head in the past, while being distracted by your many mistresses whose maintenance is both costly and draining, as a scandalous debacle is casting its eyes apon you. Yeah, it's so much easier to be German!

[@admiraltiberius1989]

@dimapez As Jeremy Clarkson said before, "VW sat navs have this annoying habit of only going to Poland." Or when speaking about a ridiculously overpowered Mercedes Maybach he said "They've overdone it, just like they over did it on their French holiday in 1940."

[@paulmanson253]

@@dancingwiththedarkness3352 Hmm. Reminds me of the joke that goes,"Heaven is where the chefs are French,the bureaucrats are German,and the police are English. Hell is where the chefs are English,the police are German,and the bureaucrats are French". Ian over at Forgotten Weapons has mentioned several times just how torturous the acceptance of new products or systems were and are in France. Rifles etc are impossibly simple next to the complexity of a warship. Quite possibly the deliberate difficulty of obtaining official plans and historical documents mentioned here is directly related to the records also being kept of the bunfights that so delayed French military procurement. Having traveled in Europe when I was young and single,I have indelible memories of certain moments. That joke resonates. Except that Austrian border guards are in a league of their own. Being young and naive,I mentioned my moments there. And was laughed at,my troubles were minor compared to other horror stories that were just accepted as there was no choice. Well Austrian battleships were well ,Austrian. Hmm.

[@bkjeong4302]

The problem is that by the time they got around to the good designs, the battleship was obsolete.

[@Backwardlooking]

My father served aboard British and an American battleship during W.W.2 and I’ve always been fascinated by their history and construction. The line drawings are beautiful examples of draughtsmanship. My grandfather did some of the plans for H.M.S. Malaya during her construction. 👍🏻🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@CTXSLPR]

Drach, Minor point of correction, the US also had to provide for three shell sizes as they still had USS Arkansas kicking around at this point for 12in, the 14in Standards, and the 16in on the Colorados and the building North Carolinas.

[@anthonybanchero3072]

We even designed a new 12 inch for the Alaska class Large cruisers.

[@bigblue6917]

What ever you put up in the video about what they would have looked like we all know they would have been changed umpteen times before the French navy got them. Interesting ships though

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

The ALL SAUCE! 12 guns of 380mm fun!

[@267BISMARK]

ive only had my Alsace for one month but i run a full secondary build which suites her and me nicely

[@carneymalone4132]

Well done. Your work on designed but unbuilt ships is exemplary.

[@misterjag]

Since we're on the subject of warships that were never built, how about the United States class (CVA-58) super carriers? Their cancellation led to the resignation of the Secretary of the Navy, a Congressional inquiry, the "Revolt of the Admirals", etc.

[@bushyfromoz8834]

IM HERE!!!! I'm having the ultimate night, im halfdrunk, playing world of warships while listening to Drach...im a sad sad sad individual.......

[@sugarnads]

Bushy FromOz atleast youre drunk and gaming. Mate im just laying in bed eating chocolate and watching youtube. Winning.

[@obelic71]

Drach speaking about the French designing warships are always funnier while drunk. Sober you can't believe it 😁

[@JB-iw1lp]

Sounds fun to me.

[@will4real58]

I fell in love with this ship while playing Navyfield. The original world of warships lol.

[@willrogers3793]

This is the one that I like the most out of WG’s paper BB’s, it just looks so much like Star Destroyer. 😍

[@war3scecfang]

i like that black and white screenshot of world of warships on Bourgogne.

[@chuckwilliams9754]

A while back I stumbled across some rough drafts on the Super Alsace, H44, H150, USS Montana & KG,V. Conveniently enough now it's all gone. Anyhow I was able to hang on to the Render of the FS Alsace.

[@UnDeaDCyBorg]

Well, seems once they decided to build classes of ships instead of a collection of oddballs, they quickly got bored, modified nearly every ship in a class individually, then lost motivation entirely and ceased the effort. Or maybe they would have modified these as well. How about 2 different calibres for the fore and aft guns? >:D

[@JTA1961]

Viva~la~di~France 📉😎📈

[@laurentdavid2147]

not true in 1940 they had 2 Dunkerque and 3 Bretagne very similar in each class. Clearly the Jean Bart was different from the Richelieu, but this seems to be mainly due to treaties and diplomatie who limited Richelieu size much more than Jean-Bart.

[@jasontwynn7356]

Type 3 is the one I like with quads,bad ass👍👍👍👍

[@dimitrisoikonomou3568]

If only there was a static model for this ship...i would buy it, no matter the cost! Easily the best looking french deseign

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

Last time i was this early, the french invaded germany.

[@LiveErrors]

The Bismarck Wars ehh?

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

@@LiveErrors Nah i was talking about the little known french invasion of germany in 1940.

[@LiveErrors]

@@Chrischi3TutorialLPs well how should i know that? for all i know you could have been talking about the 1914 Invasion

[@robertf3479]

@@LiveErrors My first thought was of Napoleon passing through on his way to getting his ass kicked at Moscow.

[@jameljay2183]

@@robertf3479 Never heard Napoléon was "ass kicked " in Moscow . He take Moscow but the russian burned the city so he retreat back , russian winter do the rest

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Drachinifel.

[@Drmartin18]

Would you be able to do a video about the 1917 Halifax Explosion. I quite like videos you do about historical events. I also think the battle at Casablanca between USS Massachusetts and Jean Bart would be an interesting topic

[@rvail136]

Very good as always. I genuinely enjoy your videos. Thanks for taking the time to do these.

[@davidbrennan660]

Drach’s moves into Battle formation against the Old Enemy... again.

[@berktanbestel2651]

It was interesting to watch this first on Flamu's Twitch channel today 😎

[@christophercripps7639]

The other long lead time items are adequate drydock & maintenance facilities and canal locks. For the Montana class BBs I've heard the USN said nvm about Panama Canal limits but surely heeded DD limits.

[@markcantemail8018]

Thank you Drach .

[@gibsondrummer]

Best add ever Duke Gannon’s fathers day emporium

[@torpedospurs]

They're remarkably similar to the Yamato's, not so much surprising since the quad-15 was 2,200 tons, second only to Yamato's in size and weight. Project Type 3 is even the same length at 265m!

[@mattblom3990]

The black and white World of Warships screenshot worked quite well.

[@s.31.l50]

Ah yes, the Alsace, named of course after the famous Italian fashion designer. Only salt miners of our benevolent gnome overlord would understand.

[@neoclassicalsuccubus2899]

Not to be misunderstood with Versace, the French department that was taken back and forth between France and Prussia/Germany/IIIrd Reich/Germany

[@alexdunphy3716]

You mean named after the German territory;)

[@TycoonTitian01]

Yea I’m here at decent time!

[@britishneko3906]

I wonder how it would be against a Yamato-class with 20.1inch guns

[@glass0baren]

got to say i like the black and white self made ship picture at the end taken in world of warships xD

[@TOMAS-lh4er]

I LOVE THE INTRO !!

[@LeCommieBoi]

*Slaps roof* This bad boy can shoot up to 12 large-caliber guns at the same time!

[@bens2207]

It's about time!!

[@maugustyniak]

You, sir, are a prolific uploader.

[@klausschroiff4405]

Please do a video about the USS Wolverine / Sable ... :-)

[@stewartellinson8846]

Paddle wheel coal fired aircraft carriers - what's not to like?

[@Anjana-qt8wt]

Drydock question, why did all french battleships have 2 forward quad turrets? They could have gotten help from the brits to design a ship with 3 triple turrets

[@jimtaylor294]

This means France is the only country other than Germany to have worked on a 16.5" gun. That said the German one was for the Kaiserlichemarine in the 1910's, and whilst the weapon passed tests the Germans had no ships that could mount her, nor the shipbuilding capacity to build such vessels from scratch. (though they considered the option, albeit with the proposal being devoid of many things they lacked the means to produce in wartime, which rather killed the concept) Weirdly: the Kreigsmarine never tried to resurrect the 16.5" gun.

[@jimtaylor294]

@tamenga88 I think I saw a photo' some years ago online, but I'd have to chase it up, as I no longer have many of the bookmarks I had on the topic.

[@JefRoberts]

Any plans to do a video of carriers Joffre and Painleve, Drach?

[@davids9520]

What next? A five gun turret? Two stories tall. Three guns on the first floor. Two guns on the second floor? The admirals. Yes!

[@RedXlV]

IIRC, Italy actually did come up with a battleship design with that type of turret. It certainly didn't progress far enough for the turret to actually be designed, though.

[@peterson7082]

Sextuplet Tillman!

[@fredericlepeltier3435]

The US virginia class pre dreadnought battleship (1906-1920) had its secondary turrets atop the main ones, making it a two stories turret. Each turret level could traverse indepentantly! Imagine the nightmare to hoist two different caliber shells to two independant turrets trough a single barbette!

[@1977Yakko]

Has a video on the Montana's been done?

[@airplanenut89]

Alace is love, Alsace is life.

[@TEHSTONEDPUMPKIN]

The French battleships are the best looking battleships! Not even Iowa, Yamato, or KGV, can compete with the looks, of Dunkerque, Richelieu, and Alsace (had she been built).

[@Arthion]

Drach, do you know if there were ever any ideas floating around of arming Gascogne with 2x3 16" guns? I'm curious if there is any historical basis in Lesta/WG St. Petersburg's Champagne that is in testing currently? And that said I'd presume they'd get around to arming the Alsace hull with those guns at some point as that's what they were presumably intended for

[@phoenixjz4782]

Not Drach, but I can answer this - There are none, it's a total fabrication on Lesta/WG's part. If you check out the armor, it's also vastly inferior to Gascogne's.

[@andreaspedersen3952]

Nice video as usual Drach! Not sure if they would ever be built considered the Development in the war. Even if the germans had delayed their invasion of France. They might have started the building, but the attack on Tarranto and Hawaii might have made them rebuild them as carriers?

[@TheCow2face]

in World of Warships, the Alsace is my favorite of outside of the Bismark/Tirpitz :)

[@DamianMaisano]

Didn’t the Americans also have 3 different shell calibers to deal with? If only because Arkansas was still holding on

[@Ntwadumela84]

You are correct; I was going to point that out as well but I'm 23 minutes too slow.

[@johnshepherd8687]

@@Ntwadumela84 Actually there were 5. The Alaska Class 12" was a different round than the Arkansas and the Colorados had a different AP round because the shell handling system couldn't take the the super heavy AP round.

[@stevevalley7835]

The net seems to have eaten my comment, so here is a second try: I have read that the Dunkerques were designed as a response to the Deutschland, with a little more gun and a little more armor, rather than building up to the limit France was allowed under the treaty, while Italy's quota under the same treaty was unused. Then the French had to run back to the drawing board when the Littorios were laid down, because the Littorios were treaty-max ships, and the Richelieus were created. Would have been interesting if the Dunkerquies were built as treaty-max, essentially being the first two Richelieus, with the Littorios being answered with the Gascogne design. Then France and Italy would both enter the war with 4 treaty-max ships built or building.

[@hughfisher9820]

Probably due to civilian factors. France really got hammered in WW1 and spent the 1920s reconstructing their economy. Italy wasn't in great shape either. So there was an informal understanding by 1930 or so that neither France nor Italy could afford a naval arms race, so "if you don't build any big ships we won't either". Then Germany, which at the time wasn't Nazi, starts on the Deutschlands. The Dunkerques will flatten any Deutschland, but at the same time France can (informally at least) tell the Italians that they still don't want a capital ship arms race.

[@stevevalley7835]

@@hughfisher9820 The Wiki article says there was a treaty limitation that forced the Dunkerques to be the size they were, but I reviewed the text of both the Washington and 1930 London treaties and found no such reduced limitation in the text, France was allowed 70,000 tons total, and a max of 35,000T each. Another part of the Wiki article says the Brits were pushing for a reduction in the tonnage limits in the 1930 treaty, and France sought to support the British position, then apparently carried through and built the small ships even though the treaty did not in fact include the reduced limits. In the back of my mind is the thought there was a reluctance to spend any more on the two ships to make them treaty-max, and hope everyone else followed their lead. Wishful thinking is rarely a sound strategy. Given Mussolini's territorial ambitions, where were displayed through the 20s and early 30s in reoccupying the parts of Libya that had slipped from Italy's grasp, it seems stunningly foolish to think he would restrain himself and not build anything more potent than the Dunkerques, even though the treaty would allow it. Of course, if the Dunkerques were built to the Richelieu design, the probable net change in the course of the war would be Dunkerque would not be so badly damaged at Mers El Kébir. would have made it's way to Toulon with Strasbourg, where they were both scuttled, so, net, zero change in their part of the war.

[@hughfisher9820]

@@stevevalley7835 You're right, the Treaties didn't have much to do with Dunkerques - although my book says that the original design tried to be 23,000 tonnes which would have allowed France to build a third within the 70,000 tonne limit. Wishful thinking isn't a sound strategy, but knowing that the likely opponent (Italy) has just as many financial problems as you are helps. Territorial ambitions in the 1920s and 1930s were still usual for European countries, not just dictators. Mussolini / the Italian Navy had kept to the treaties (it wasn't until the late 1930s that the Brits discovered just how big those Italian cruisers really were from one of Drach's previous videos) and more importantly had kept to the informal agreement about not building more cruisers or new battleships. Given the years it would take to construct any new battleships, the Italians could hardly surprise France with something they couldn't respond to. French shipbuilding may even have been faster than Italian, I think Richelieu was started a full year after Littorio but would have been in service at around the same time if the Germans hadn't invaded. So what was there to gain by start an arms race with Italy?

[@stevevalley7835]

@@@hughfisher9820 yes, both countries had financial constraints. The Italian fleet being severely constrained in the 20s is laid on the cost of subjugating Libya. I notice the Littorios were ordered shortly after the Libyian campaign was wrapped up in 32. When the Dunkerques were laid down, France was also sinking a fortune into the Maginot Line. I have also read that there was a line of thought that, by building undersized ships, France could build more of them. Italy looked at that through the late 20s as well, but, when it came time to sign a construction contract, they went big.

[@rohannavalkar112]

@Drachinifel since I cannot find the pinned post for Drydock here is my question: Why were the French more so focused on developing quad turrets for their guns rather than focusing on development guns of larger calibre

[@maltelabrenz3965]

more DAKKA!!!

[@Yataka]

because it looks pretty. in truth, it's not even a joke, as Réginald Mitchell says, when it's beautiful, it works. * he was neither the only one nor the first to have said it

[@rohannavalkar112]

@@Yataka 😂😂

[@rohannavalkar112]

@@maltelabrenz3965 I don't think gun size in reality atleast at the the level of 12-18 inches really affects DAKKA

[@jimtaylor294]

A practical solution to having the equivilant of twice the number of double turrets, on a ship half the length of armoured citadel. That; and less individual turrets means less weight taken up in barbettes.

[@ndmmt-wu7kz]

The US had 12” (Arkansas), 14” (New York and others) and 16” (Maryland/North Carolina/South Dakota)

[@MidnightMoon2267]

Other 12” gun ships include the Alaska Class large cruiser and you forgot the Iowa’s with there 16” guns.

[@Balmung60]

And that's two different 16" armaments - the Mark 1 guns on Colorados couldn't fire 16" superheavy shells like the Mark 6 guns on the North Carolinas and South Dakotas.

[@mikedrzka6701]

Do you analyse in some of your vidoes immediate reaction of navies across the world on the moment they realite the real gun size of the Yamato class BBs?

[@bkjeong4302]

By the time that happened, the Yamatos had been sunk and the war was over.

[@miassenpai6057]

Can we have the IJN's Design B-65 "Super Cruiser" video, next??

[@thomasparal2724]

Drach already did one about 2 years ago kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6DRaaihpdyAgbc

[@phoenixjz4782]

On the question of 'which' Alsace was to be built - don't Jordan & Dumas rather definitively state that the 40,000-ton 3x3 380mm version was the choice made in the end? They do highlight the advantages and disadvantages for France to build either design, but ultimately they state; "Two battleships of 40,000 tons were duly authorized on 1 April 1940." (pg. 180) It is also worth noting that this is again repeated in the next book in the series (though this time with Jean Moulin rather than Robert Dumas, but as I understand it both authors mostly handle the historical half of the respective books they worked on, while John Jordan mostly handles the technical sections), as in a section describing the heavy cruiser projects of the late 1930s it is stated; "Besides the new cruisers, the programme was to comprise two new battleships of 40,000 tons, a light cruiser, six conte-torpilleurs, sixteen destroyers (torpilleurs) and six submarines." (pg.162). In the attached footnote they also state the design was a 3x3.

[@irumicu]

6:38 lol, that's the port menu in WoWs.

[@Drachinifel]

There are relatively few images of the Alsace, and the model at that angle is good enough to get the point across :)

[@JuankaFrank]

What is the worl of warships alsace project?

[@jasontwynn7356]

Your intro music has been very low and last few videos? Don't know if you notice it or not? Just saying. Love your videos 👍

[@stefanusloloanpieterhutaba2744]

they look like the yamato if the french

[@shadowofchaos8269]

Has he covered the german O class?

[@totalwar1793]

So beautiful...

[@JJAmes-mb4du]

So sorry but the intro music seems low on the latest downloads.

[@leftcoaster67]

Drach do you keep the automated closing, to remind us how great it is to have you narrate your videos? :) Thanks again.

[@Drachinifel]

It's a small acknowledgement of the channels beginnings :)

[@KMCA779]

@@Drachinifel Next time can you match volumes between you and the intro/outro. I cranked my volume during the intro and your voice almost sent my coworker through the roof.

[@marseldagistani1989]

Hey it's Tillman's Younger Brother!

[@jimtaylor294]

Sister* ;-)

[@marseldagistani1989]

@@jimtaylor294 the Devil's in the Details

[@jimtaylor294]

As is always the case in engineering.

[@SerapisMichaels501]

Can you do a vid on HMS Nemesis

[@davidharner5865]

Why did France name a BB after a German province (Lorraine)?

[@largeman7243]

May is a very french month

[@MarchHare59]

As modern as they look, French Battleship design prior to the fall of France were actually throwbacks to Pre-Dreadnought design thinking, with the most common design having two main battery turrets backed up with medium caliber guns in turrets around the citadel. The only difference between the French designs and the Lord Nelson class is the French secondary battery was placed on the centerline instead of on the wings.

[@Ridliman]

Could it have been possible to have built them in another country? Like the UK?

[@jimtaylor294]

Theoretically; though the Free French probably didn't have the financial capital, and - speaking hypothetically as the UK certainly was full to capacity for ship orders during WWII - it would've required substituting components. (such as using British 15"/42's instead of french 15") In peacetime though - assuming WWII occured later - the French Could have had the hulls built in UK or US 'yards, and fitted out in France, but the bruising to their national pride would likely have prevented this.

[@hughfisher9820]

After seeing the Royal Navy "acquire" Agincourt and Erin in WW1, would you trust the Brits to build a battleship for you with war looming? :-)

[@sarjim4381]

Amazing how long the French stuck with the idea that a triple 152 mm DP arrangement would have ever worked. It would have been hard enough just to produce a single 152 mm gun with fast enough loading and training to have been useful against even the relatively slow prewar aircraft they already knew about. I'm sure there was a concept that aircraft would be getting faster, and some kind of autoloading and powerful hydraulic or electric power control would have been needed to be effective against them. Of course, it's not easy to have been too hard on the French when the USN said "Here, hold my beer" when they decided they could make six twin 152 mm DP turrets work with the 1948 technology available. So much for that plan.

[@quentintin1]

well if what i read was right, they managed to make so that the main guns could be loaded at any angle on the Richelieus, so i don't doubt they would have managed to do something about the 152s

[@stevevalley7835]

I wonder the same thing. Even the 5.1s on the Dunkerques were not well suited to AA use. The fixed rounds were terribly heavy, some 117lbs. The loaders would get tired in a hurry hefting rounds that heavy. The 6" was even worse, with the shell alone weight over 120lbs, with a rate of fire of only 5-6 rounds/minute. The 5"/38 shells only weighed about 55lbs. and with the all singing, all dancing mounts with built in hoists could fire up to 22r/m. The only thing that 6" would be particularly good for is if the battleships were attacked by a cruiser swarm, like Graf Spee was. Seems the French did start to catch on as some sources say some of the 6" on Richelieu were replaced with more of the 100mmDP.

[@hughfisher9820]

If they'd got it to work, it would have been awesome and solved so many problems. Strangely, I think it might be partly because the French navy before WW2 didn't pay much attention to AA guns. So they knew the triple 130mm/152mm turrets had problems, but no worries, just keep working on it. AFAIK the single mount destroyer guns weren't any better for AA either. The French navy did undergo something of a religious conversion during WW2 :-), probably helped by Richelieu going through the US "weld 40mm Bofors on every available deck space" upgrade. Seriously, check out the AA guns on Jean Bart when she was finally commissioned around 1950. Makes an Iowa look wimpy by comparison :-)

[@ScienceChap]

Ahhh... dream on France. They kept tinkering...

[@incompetentdiplomat3716]

shame they never did a super bb with a 4x4 turret design

[@irumicu]

Would you really want to upteir the wrath of the Lyon in WoWs

[@janwitts2688]

Or just build 2 more of the preceding class.. all technical problems already resolved... operation as a squadron of powerful units... no infrastructure changes required...

[@KMCA779]

Innovate or die. As true in war as it is in business.

[@wiryantirta]

So uhhh... are we getting the Republique / France next? Pwease?

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

The ship Republique from WoWs is in a category that Zao, Conqueror/Thunderer, Henri IV, Kremlin, and Venezia share. They were completely made up no designs of them ever existed, and unlike Roon and Hindenburg their weapons didn’t exist either. Worse still Republiques main armament is impossible. The max size gun you can put in a quad turret is 15 inches

[@Poctyk]

@@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass >Kremlin Isn't that (one of the proposed) Project 24? Well +60mm deck because hurr durr soviet stronk

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

I think that Kremlin is more of a K-1000 because the ‘Project 24’ according to WEEGEE is still classified. Why? Why is an obsolete design classified long after Battleships have been retired? Could it be that it does not exist, like most of the Unicorn BB Line?

[@jeffreytam7684]

Gosh darn KZbin compression

[@SmilingIbis]

Just as well they never built them. The age of the battleship was drawing to a close anyhow.

[@garrettledford1147]

That last picture looks awfully questionable

[@frosty3693]

It looks like a screen shot capture of the Philippines port in World of Warships. My home port in the game.

[@MakeMeThinkAgain]

I consulted my copy of "Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905-1970" by Siegfried Breyer but that only confirms what you said about the main guns while saying that the "Province" class would be otherwise the same as the Gascogne. So nothing at all helpful.

[@roykliffen9674]

5:08 ".... and Dutch battleships of WW2,..." ? I'm sorry, what??

[@davidjames4915]

The Dutch were designing a Scharnhorst-like battlecruiser class of three ships, 'Design 1047', with 3x3 11" guns to protect their far Eastern colonies in the late 1930s and into 1940. Their basic idea was that the Japanese battlefleet would square off with the American and British fleets in the event of major hostilities, so the Dutch just needed to protect their own colonies from Japanese cruisers. They never got too far but their experience actually showed the difficulty an emergent naval power would have in designing modern capital ships as the Dutch had to contract most of the work to Germany who was reluctant to share many details.

[@roykliffen9674]

@@davidjames4915 Ah, thanks, From the title the implication was we Dutch had battleships ..... we never had. And even if the project you mentioned had come to fruition, we still wouldn't have had battleships ^_^ [edit] BTW for us to be referred to as an "emergent naval power" shows how much the Dutch Government has slacked off over the years/centuries prior to WW2. We're the guys that committed the "Grand Theft Warship" on the Medway - as Drachinifel called it in his special - probably the biggest bloody nose any navy gave the Royal British Navy..... Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

[@katrinapaton5283]

@@roykliffen9674 If the 1913 proposal had come to fruition the Dutch not only could have had up to nine battleships, mainly to protect the Dutch East Indies, but one of the designs submitted by Germaniawerft actually had two quad turrets, one forward and one aft, a curious layout for a German design.

[@jamessullivan7692]

The Frenchies just never seem to get it together do they

[@allisinthepass]

Now your just going through the WoWs tech tress arent you Drachinifel

[@Drachinifel]

Actually this month's series of French BB's is from a request almost two years ago. :) I have no particular choice on the order they come in :)

[@ussdesmoines1920]

Soon it will be the Republice JK

[@cdgodsell]

Just got her in WoWs lol

[@TheBeomoose]

Sigh. Oh, 15" 3x3 ALSACE, you were too beautiful to live

[@Yataka]

God daam he look pretty

[@myopiniongoodyouropinionbad]

*420mm Guns* 😎😎😎

[@jim874]

like your channel. BUT you audio needs to be cranked up a lot. Barely hear you. Your channel is the only one with weak audio. However, like I said, you have great content. If only I could hear it louder!

[@jaredw9171]

I was really hoping for a snide comment from Drach about how Alsace was named after an Italian and not a Frenchman. Am disappointed.

[@bkjeong4302]

Looking at this thing further confirms that French battleship design was a tragicomic farce; getting things right just as the whole concept became obsolete and pointless.

[@w8stral]

Says they have never built a triple turret: Ends story with picture of a 6" triple turret.... Gee, I wonder if anyone can use a scaling function...

[@Drachinifel]

Unfortunately when it comes to turrets, the differences between a cruiser and battleship grade turret are enough that experience in one doesn't really translate to experience in the other.

[@toddwebb7521]

The French had some amazing looking ships after they had the tumblehome guy drowned in a vat of Brie

[@davidmicheal8511]

im a filipino. can you make hundreds of ships like that we can afford it

[@murderouskitten2577]

80th :)

[@calvingreene90]

A suitcase full of money can solve a bunch of problems in duplicating someone elses technology.