Return to Ostagar with Loghain - Dragon Age: Origins

[@RopeDrink]

Fun fact -- if you have your dog + Loghain with you during the DLC, the dog will growl at Loghain when he calls Celene a 'bitch'.

[@shock019]

Good dog.

[@huggywuggy3247]

really?

[@Bubbles99718]

Wish you have Dog take down Loghain. I try every time, dumb game never let's me do it. Don't like the reason they give either. "Anyone with a bone could sway him." My Bubbles would never do such a thing!

[@Cobra_125]

I wonder why. The Dog and Loghain usually get along, and it's not like it has a reason to defend Celene.

[@UbyVictor]

@@Cobra_125 I believe the dog has a problem with the term "bitch" being used as an insult, since a bitch is a female dog. To the dog it's more like a concept of racism than actually caring about Celene 😂

[@bacchamae]

Oghren must have felt so out of place in there. XD

[@Isomeria450]

-Uhm... Leliana, where is a barrel of wine we bough back at Denerim? -I think you should look around Oghren. When you came back he was rambling something about "not being drunk enough for this" whatever he meant.

[@theblackprinceofnyc]

Isn't it really fucking weird that the Darkspawn seemed to have strung up Kailan with fake wings looking like a statue of one of the gods in the dalish elf prologue? That and the fact that his bloodline seemed to have drank dragon blood make this very interesting imagery.

[@vguyver2]

I was wondering that myself. They usually act very feral, to go through all that trouble for this specific figure tells of some history.

[@andrewvincent7299]

V Guyver The Darkspawn are more cunning than they seem. Perhaps Cailan was put up like that for a reason.

[@AzureRoxe]

Fast forward 9 years and it's heavily implied that the Blight that creates Darkspawn was made thanks to the Old Gods, who are either the Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones, both being Elven God pantheons. Said Old Gods take the form of dragons when they become Archdemons.

[@theblackprinceofnyc]

@@AzureRoxe i'm heavily leaning on the idea that the old gods are the forgotten ones and the darkspawn are just a tool of the evanuris. The blight seems something akin to god level blood magic. Where you don't just take over someone's mind but can literally reform your own body out of theirs. Darkspawn, Grey Wardens anyone who has consented to or born with the taint belongs to the will which controls the darkspawn.

[@FJMF92]

@npc6254 I thought the same, Apollo really gave the gift of prophecy to this one haha

[@SonofJones]

For those who insist Loghain couldn't save Cailan at Ostagar, remember this; Cailan was willing to pull out, even at the last minute to wait for Orlais reinforcements to help stem the tide of the Darkspawn. Not to mention if Loghain wasn't so dead set on villainizing the Wardens for no good reason, Duncan could have brought up the treaties that would have compelled the Elves, Dwarves and Circle to aid them. Instead he sacrificed half of his army and synced the other half on his own countrymen while Darkspawn ravaged through the south, including through most of his own Teryn. And that's not even mentioning all the other atrocities he committed; backing Howe when he slaughtered the Couslands, backing Uldred in his bid to take over the Circle with Blood Magic, selling elves into slavery (especially hypocritical for a man so concerned with Fereldan's freedom). Loghain may see himself as the righteous savior, but then again don't all zealots?

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

1. It's not as if the darkspawn would wait for Orlais reinforcement to arrive at Ostagar, and the Wardens only recovered the treaty documents mere hours before the battle began. There was no time to reach out to th elves, dwarves and mages - all of whom were at least days away from Ostagar. 2. The idea of a king, much less one without heir like Cailan, fighting on the front line is beyond stupid. His death was so ridiculous that one of the in-game tips poked fun at it (something about "history won't remember how glorious your frontal charge is"). 3. Loghain only retreated because it was too late to charge in. By the time the signal came, most of the soldiers that were stationed at the ruins would have been dead already. Risking _thousands_ of fresh soldiers just to save _hundreds_ of injured ones is sheer folly. 4. Even if Loghain did charge in and managed to kill all the darkspawn at Ostagar, what would that accomplish? The Fifth Blight horde is greater than any of the previous Blights (Codex entry: Stalata Negat); a "mere" ten thousands or so casualties is nothing for the darkspawn, and the Blight would still continue until the Archdemon is slain. 5. It's not as if his suspicion of the Wardens was completely unfounded. The Wardens have had a history of rebelling against Ferelden monarch despite their supposed neutrality (Sophia Dryden), and they once put Maric in harm's way by asking him to accompany them on their quest (Dragon Age the Calling novel). Besides, Loghain had no way of knowing that Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon; not even Alistair knew, and he had been a Warden for six months. The Wardens guard their secrets carefully even from their own recruits. 6. It is a fact that the Alienage was stricken with Blight sickness. Granted, slavery is hardly praiseworthy, but it was either that or the certainty of Ferelden destruction because he lacked the fund to equip his army.

[@leoncoben6983]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 It's nice to see someone actually knows the lore and proper on field battle decisions. Although Loghain is mad, due to stress, he isn't wrong in his withdrawal. Secondly I share his sentiments about the Orlais especially after Inquisition. Fuck 'em. Had I not a sense of proper morality in being disgusted with myself to allow someone to die for political purposes I would've been more than happy to sit Gaspard on the throne. He at least shares my disdain with Orlais stupid fucking politics with The Game. Where playing with people's lives and pretending to like one another is the currency to do anything in that damned country. Loghain's distrust and hatred towards them, especially given how they treated the Fereldans when they were under their rule, is completely sound. That would've been like Americans asking Britain for aid them RIGHT AFTER the Revolutionary War. Fuck we didn't even find common ground until WWII, nearly a century after the Revolutionary War where the old soldiers would've been long since out of command and enlistment so the most of the negative feelings had just died off by then. The only thing I disagree with is the elves. Selling them to Tevinter was just wrong, doesn't matter if they were sick he engaged in slave trade. Fereldan should've been more than willing to crumble to dust before condoning that. But as for reasoning it isn't entirely due to sickness. Loghain is a human noble and the elves...are elves. He just doesn't care for them, I doubt he even sees them as fellow countrymen. I mean the entire Fereldan Army is made up of only humans and I very much doubt there weren't a handful of elves looking to the military to prove their mettle and worth as well as a way to raise themselves out of the shithole that is those Alienages and avoid living in the forest, giving up the comforts of city life, with the Dalish. The elves are just fourth-class citizens in most of the Southern countries. It's actually kinda sad that the Imperium has better treatment for the elves than the non-enslaving countries.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@leoncoben6983 Well, the only problem with Gaspard is that he's all too eager to start another war with Ferelden and Nevarra. Other than that, I believe he's a better leader than Celene if only because he had the sense to fit fewer parties into his schedule. And yes, Cailan didn't know he was being played like a fiddle. Celene was cunning enough to steal the throne from Gaspard who is arguably just as brilliant as Loghain was. Had he went through the marriage, Orlais would have legal claim over Ferelden - all without spilling a single drop of blood. I do agree that selling the elves is a tad bit too much, even if it was done with greater good in mind. It was very ironic that a man who fought for freedom and led the Night Elves (a clandestine unit during Fereldan rebellion) would later sell the elves into slavery. I'd like to believe that Ferelden would have lost the war had it not been for Loghain's effort to equip the army with funds obtained through the slavery, but his idea of defeating the Blight through Ferelden military effort was already flawed to begin with. No single nation has the power to take on a Blight on their own, least of all a weak kingdom like Ferelden. The Fifth Blight horde, in particular, was so massive that the darkspawn vanguard outnumbered the Coalition Army three-to-one in the Battle of Denerim.

[@leoncoben6983]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 That can definitely not be disputed. It's even shown that a proper leader is all what it took to make the difference since The Warden isn't present, the Blight just bulldozes it's way through the Denerim in the end in the Darkspawn Chronicles DLC. Just the fact that is a viable what if scenario show's how lucky Ferelden is to have survived it at all, let alone starting to see some recovery 10 years later.

[@stephen8805]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 All Kings in fantasy fight on the front.

[@jerrymoore8701]

You know Loghain may be a jerk but the best revenge is letting him join the Wardens in Awakening he gets stationed in Orlais. Wonder how that's going?

[@spacejesus6581]

And an innocent Hawke doesn’t have to die in Inquisition, Stroud and Loghain die every time for me, but Alistair? When I have to choose between Hawke and Alistair answer is... I can’t

[@Erfan-x8p3c]

@@spacejesus6581 you choose Alistair. He won't be living long because of the taint.

[@krschu00]

@@Erfan-x8p3c Not unless the Warden finds the cure.

[@fawnieee]

@@Erfan-x8p3c he had at least a good thirty twenty/thirty years before the taint expires him. That's enough time for the warden to find a cure. He has Maric's blood in him, Maric descends from an ancient ancestry that Flemeth tells him to drink the blood of a high dragon. I can't remember exactly why, but what we see with his mother (Fiona) is that if someone of Theirin bloodline beds a female warden and impregnates them the taint is then removed from the mother and the child born untainted. That's why Fiona "stopped" being a grey warden. Avernus was other who more or less discovered a way to remove the taint (albeit apathetically) and I'm sure there a number of other ways to remove the taint. Now, I'm not sure if because Alistair is a grey warden (unlike his father at his conception) that if he impregnated a female warden the taint will be removed. I can't imagine if female romanced warden with Alistair would be using any protection, so I assume it's unlikely or that for whatever reason they did use some form of protection. It's pretty interesting stuff.

[@moomgmh]

Honestly, by the time inquisition rolls around he's redeemed himself. Anything left of his misdeeds is washed away if he sacrifices himself tbh

[@tybolt1304]

loghain is good example of what happen when you let the hate for your oppressors become everything you see. if you look for your demons you will always find it. even if there is nothing there.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

Except he was right all along. Celene conspired to kill the previous Emperor, stole the throne from Gaspard, and hid her involvement extremely well that no one could stop her ascension; *all these when she was just 16.* Cailan never stood a chance against her.

[@blazypika2]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 yeah, but celene wanted to marry cailan to secure relations with ferelden, to put past conflict behind both kingdoms in the name of progress.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@blazypika2 Why would anyone want to marry the empress of a nation that treated regicide, assassination and conspiracy as "the Game"? Please, we both know Celene has ulterior motives.

[@jankubicek9109]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 you are right. He was blinded by hatred and did many horrible things but he was right about Cailan being naive. Its strange that it is said Anore ruled more than he was yet he was preparing for alliance with Orlais. With his inexpirience she would devour him soon enough. Also dont forget there was a past with Soldiers peak.

[@Adanu191]

@@blazypika2 You are either incredibly naive, or trolling hard. Celene did not care about securing relations with Fereldan. She cared about using a silk glove of diplomacy to try to turn Fereldan into a puppet state.

[@ryanbelcher25rb]

Image returning to Ostagar with Alistair, Wynne and Loghain it would be Chaos

[@arthasmenethil9605]

They wanted to make it possible for alistair not to leave if sparing loghain but they changed their minds before release

[@angeliquetheirin2588]

I wrote my one and only piece of fan fic about this ever. Finding Alistair and telling him I allowed it so Loghain could sacrifice himself to kill the archdemon. (found info about it in the Grey Warden Vault before the Landsmeet) just because I thought it was bs you can't even explain to Alistair WHY you side with Riordan

[@ryanbelcher25rb]

+Angelique Field Where's the link to this?

[@angeliquetheirin2588]

ryanbelcher25rb here it is angelic-artwork.deviantart.com/art/Six-Months-Later-610088725 it's not a vid, I haven't figured out how to fool with the game yet, which is odd for someone who does 3d modeling, shh don't tell my friends :P

[@ryanbelcher25rb]

+Angelique Field Read it and it was a good idea.

[@therambler8721]

"THE CHEATING BASTARD!" Ngl, I laughed when Loghain said that XD

[@dreamingflurry2729]

Takes one to know one! Loghain is despicable after all, he kille King Maric's love (for a supposed best friend he's an asshole and I'd have him put to the sword after that!), he killed Maric's son through careful planing (delaying Arl Eamon's troops by having him poisoned, throwing the Circle into chaos (they could have provided more mages otherwise and a mage is kind of the heavy machine-gun, so a force-multiplier of the highest order, of that game!), not letting the Orleasian Wardens and their escort enter the country etc. etc.)...no way I am going to forgive, that man is dead as soon as he issues the retreat order, he just doesn't know it yet!

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@dreamingflurry2729 1. *Loghain revealed Katriel's treachery, but he didn't kill her. It was Maric himself;* he was enraged because her betrayal caused the death of so many rebels including Arl Rendorn Guerrien. 2. Killed Maric's son through careful planning? *Loghain **_tried_** to warn Cailan to stay off the battlefield, but the king refused to listen.* "Loghain, my decision is final. I will stand by the Grey Wardens in this assault." "You risk too much, Cailan. The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the frontline." *A king without heir fighting on the Frontline.* I'm sure you can see just how stupid that was. 3. Ser Donall claimed that Eamon fell ill before the king dies, but this is impossible. Why? Because it would imply that Jowan: a. Escaped the Circle b. Got himself captured by a knight lieutenant from Denerim Chantry c. Liberated by Loghain/Howe's men d. Infiltrated Redcliffe e. Taught Connor long enough so he could use simple spell f. Poisoned Eamon *All before our Mage Warden even arrived at Ostagar.* This isn't possible because Jowan only had minutes of headstart ahead of the Mage Warden.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

4. *Loghain had reasons to be suspicious of the Wardens.* The Wardens had a history of rebelling against Ferelden monarch under Sophia Dryden, and they once put Maric in harm's way by taking him along on their mission to the Deep Roads (The Calling novel). Warden Commander Genevieve even ordered Duncan to kill Maric if the king discovered secrets that would hurt Grey Wardens' reputation. 5. *Asking for reinforcement from Orlais is a terrible idea.* a. There would be no cohesion and cooperation between their armies, given their recent conflict. One does not simply forget ~70 years of war and slavery. b. Orlais could easily use this chance to send their army in and reoccupy Ferelden, despite the ongoing Blight. c. Orlais could also use this chance to get Ferelden in their debt. Once the Blight is over, they would be free to ask whatever absurd demand as compensation for their aid. Rejecting this compensation means Ferelden would be seen as ungrateful; Orlais would have a _casus belli_ to start another war, and Ferelden would lose all justification and support for their rebellion.

[@3adgamd3r]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 point 3 falls apart because there’s roughly a month of in game time between the prologue and the battle at Ostegar, the recruited Warden and Duncan will at minimum visit the other potential wardens but fail to recruit them in time, this is evidenced by Merrill in DA2; she will talk about meeting Duncan even if the Warden wasn’t Dailish, saying he “arrived too late with another Warden to save Mahariel” or some such, the Dwarf Commoners body can be found in the prison cell in the hideout in the Castless town in Orzammar, the Dwarf Nobles fate in canon happens a week after the commoner, which is several weeks before the king died. So that covers the DC, DN and DE, the City Elf gets tortured to death and you can talk to the ginger cousin dude about it (I forget his name, the guy you rescue the girls with or helps your husband rescue you in the CE origin), the Mage Origin turns into an abomination I believe and the Human Noble dies with his/her family, which is likely the last of these events to take place due to the HN brothers soldiers immediately marching for Ostegar, by which point Jowan has already escaped the circle There’s probably a rough order to how Duncan travelled Ferelden, but yeah there’s actually a lotta time between the prologue and Ostegar

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@3adgamd3r I will gladly concede the point...if you can provide the exact reference on _when_ and _where_ Merrill said Duncan arrived too late to save Mahariel. The game did confirm about the existence of Dalish Elf, Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner; but there was no evidence that Human Noble, Human/Elf Mage and City Elf actually exist. For all we know, Fergus could be an only son; Jowan might have escaped without destroying his phylactery; and Soris was acting alone. And their confirmed existence is no proof that Duncan continued with the recruiting process after meeting your Warden.

[@intheraeyne]

*"... Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre ..."* However, he made Howe his right hand man and allowed it to go unpunished. The Couslands were one of Fereldan's oldest, most powerful and respected families in the country and fiercely loyal to it's rulers after the end of the Orlesian's hold on it. And Howe, potentially, killed the entire line off since it's assumed Fergus is dead and that your Warden is, too, if they were a Cousland... and who knows how well a Warden can procreate. Morrigan isn't exactly an example to be had since she had knowledge of powerful old magic and could have made it happen. And while he didn't first agree to slavery, he did try to justify it once he realized what happened(that the Tevinter "healers" weren't healing them, but taking them away). And at Ostagar, Loghain had the forces to put a dent in the Blight. However, his own fucking hatred cost Denerim and half of the country, because he was too mad about Celene and Cailan flirting through letters to think the Blight was serious. And just because Cailan regarded the Wardens highly and respected them, he automatically assumes they're shitty people that are pretending to be great. He also makes another assumption, based on no knowledge, that they aren't necessary to defeat the Darkspawn. As for Duncan being stupid for going along with Cailan, he assumed Loghain would charge in and be the one to change the tide of the battle. And he was right, because Loghain would have. Even if it costed his life, in the long run, it would help the future Wardens and weaken the Darkspawn infiltration in to Fereldan. I don't hate Loghain, but he is a very faulty man that isn't as tactile and intelligent as he wants to believe. No matter what he or Anora thinks, he let Fereldan down that day because of his own selfish desires. He did nothing remotely positive and was making everything worse. He caused civil war, while Darkspawn were a large threat, he, albeit unwillingly, allowed slaving to go on, let Uldred tear the circle a new ass and looked over Howe's massacre of a powerful house(that may have followed him[Loghain] with enough persuasion) while even letting the dick torture other influential people to prevent a lack of support at the Landsmeet. He even tried to get Eamon(whom he could have reasoned with) killed for his own gain as well. However, in a sense, his fuck ups are what drive the Warden to save the country, since everyone would have been under the impression the Blight was moreso taken care of at Ostagar, had Loghain's forces defeated the remaining army. In a very skewered sense, he did save the country, but he hurt it greatly in the process and doesn't exactly deserve praise for it. It's even shittier that he wont own up to his crap and can't even forgive Cailan after death. It just goes to show how fucking hateful that Loghain was. Turning away Orlesian help because of his anxiety and paranoia, and then all of this other bullshit just to keep Anora on top and the Wardens out of the picture. My take? Loghain shouldn't live. He can't see the future, I'll give him that, but he doesn't think with a clear head at all and is too prejudiced and batshit to be a positive figure in Fereldan society. A great general he is no longer. He fell to his own dogma.

[@Fearfulcrawdog]

Actually check the wiki out, Loghain distrusted the wardens long before the events of DA:O he blamed them for Maric going missing

[@TJVBernal]

I set alistair as king and loghain for the wardens. The wardens in ferelden would probably need him... probably. Stubborn fuck needs time to think and see his own shit. No sense in atoning. Can't bring back a dead husband or dead wife. Best thing he could do after is save what's left.

[@geoffreychance9770]

Fergus survives the blight, whether youre a human noble or not. also one of the awakening endings for Nathaniel Howe is that he save Fergus from bandits.

[@intheraeyne]

Geoffrey Chance For Awakening, do you have to be a Cousland to get that ending? I don't think it's ever stated if Fergus lives if you're a non-Cousland and implied that the entire Cousland house was murdered.

[@geoffreychance9770]

Naveese i played a dwarf and got that ending, and if youre a human noble Fergus is around at the end of the blight. its all on the wiki. i imagine the events of the human noble origin story still occur in the same way but without Duncan and the younger son surviving to become a warden.

[@neonyoneo]

I'm only having Loghain in my party for his awesome voice-acting.

[@MarkusRamikin]

Thanks for uploading. I was curious, but didn't feel like re-playing the game just for this.

[@immortan-valkyrie90]

[@kinbolluck476]

😮

[@bethanw5629]

I hated Loghain soooo much but since reading The Stolen Throne I can sympathise and understand his reasons for his action in Origins. However, though I may like who he once was I cannot defend him at the end of this video. Cailan was a fool and Loghian's betrayal makes sense, but to be so uncaring about the son of his closest friend and the woman he loved is just downright mean....meanie.

[@rinokumura7371]

Reeeeallly? Loghain Killed Kalyien And Taunt Maric At That Fact, He Doesnt Deserve Sympathy

[@ElectricAlect]

@@rinokumura7371 Sorry this is late, but Kalyien betrayed the rebels, she sold bad info to the rebels and because of that info, they almost lost all their army.

[@nem0men_901]

I think his admiration for Maric is the exact reason why he cares so little about Cailan. He had enormous expectations and Cailan just failed to meet them. I haven't read the book and generally don't know much about Loghain, but I don't think he even percieves Cailan as Maric's son at this point

[@kannbrown65]

@@ElectricAlect But she'd repented of that fact and was working with them by the time he taunts Maric into killing her. Maric notes that fact, himself, after the fact. And Flemeth warned Maric, that Loghain was going to betray Maric, repeatedly, the closer Maric kept him.

[@juanlaise1059]

@@kannbrown65 Repenting or not, she betrayed Maric and cost the lives of many good men, including Rowan's father.

[@Proclaimer001]

Very unique dialogue, I'm glad you did this as it saved me a lot of time

[@lycan-zp9xf]

I actually agree with Loghain in one thing: Cailan fucked up trying to marry Celene. That would have been terrible for Ferelden. Despite everything, Cailan was a terrible king.

[@gaaraofthefunk7163]

I, for one, would have loved to see that (never liked Anora).

[@goddesschild24]

+Nohemi DeLeon After playing inquisition im not so sure its celene that is the one they would have to worry about, even with her own little game, she is no where near as tyranical as gaspard or florriane heh

[@gaaraofthefunk7163]

***** True, but..that's why Cailan marrying Celene would guarantee one less thing to worry about. Even though she is not. ..hmm...skilled? In battle, she is good on diplomacy X)

[@andrewvincent7299]

Cailan was a good man, but truly naive. You're right that marrying Celene would have been a disaster for Ferelden. Especially with people with people like Grand Duke Gaspard around. Cailan has to be stopped before he seriously did hand over Ferelden to Orlais on a silver platter. It's unfortunate Loghain had to do what he did but it seemed to be the only way. What a shame.

[@MoTownIfrit]

lycan2500 1 I just wish I could have killed Anora for her betrayal of potential allies

[@Altaranalt]

Loghain is a great character. After reading the novels I found out a lot more about his character. He's as cold as ice, but Ferelden owes him a great deal.

[@GarrethTuiteMain-vi6zo]

And now they ruined him in Veilgaurd

[@SyBorg-to3ni]

Loghain is in Veilguard? Where?

[@Keram-io8hv]

@@SyBorg-to3ni He isn´t and never will be but game made every warden moron (except twink and square jaw) But "Evil white mayor who sold uwu Veiljumpers" was voiced by his actor

[@grundy1ooooo]

Damn I love Wynne. She don't have time for Loghain's shit lol

[@leoncoben6983]

Yeah by avoiding his questions and refusing to give a proper answer to back up her argument.

[@AzureKani]

Logain was wrong for abandoning the wardens at Ostagar, but he was wrong for the right reasons. Had he responded to the vigil, he and all his men along with the King and Duncan would have been massacred. Although he is still despicable for the things that he'd done leading up to the landsmeet, Poisoning Arl Eamon and trying to turn all of Fereldan against the Wardens, he is a great war hero that fought long and hard alongside Maric to free Fereldan from Orlais. I have a sense of Respect for him in a way and Death is too simple for a man like Logain in my eyes. To spend the rest of his life protecting everyone from what he should have been focusing on from the beginning is both a valid punishment as well as good way for him to seek penance, to snap out of it and become the man he once used to be. Thats why I chose to keep him around.

[@EldritchAugur]

Cailan's battle was a fools battle he was right in that aspect, if he had any honor he still should have stayed and fought, but I could understand why he left. HOWEVER, everything he did after that like Blaming the Grey Wardens, torturing people and selling elves into slavery is indefensible, I killed him at the landsmeet and don't regret it, he deserved to die for everything that he did after the battle at Ostagar.

[@KazumiKiguma]

See, this guy gets it.

[@BlueSpartan107]

I understand your reasons. However, after a while I decided that Loghain should get some kind of redemption for his actions. Yes, his actions do sound unforgivable, but there's probably been people worse than he was. So I spared him, made Alistair and Anora wed even though Alistair was grumpy about it, and had Loghain give up his life in Inquisition for that final act of redemption. He's one of those villains I hate to love, but like the Arishok from the second game he has earned some merit of respect from me all the same.

[@phantom4cerberus]

***** No it was lost,, and if they would have won it would be by "sheer chance" (Sten please) , the army they were facing was only a small fragment of the Horde who was still in the Deep Roads or maybe on its way to the Korcari Wilds, Cailan thought he would en the Blight with one battle, but there was no archdemon winning the battle of Ostagar is meaningless, because darkspawn are in VERY LARGE numbers, if he would have won the battle of Ostagar nonetheless he would had to sacrifice Loghain's troops (which were a large percent of Ferelden troops) and his. What's going to be left to take the rest of the Horde ? It was a win win for the archdemon win or lose, it would be a victory for him anyway, lol a mindless creature is smarter than two battle hardened generals (Cailan and Loghain)

[@theredlioness2502]

+BlueSpartan107 You sound like Dumbledore. You know, if you were to look into his head...

[@BlueSpartan107]

TheRedLioness I don't know. I've never felt like the grizzled old headmaster type (probably because I'm 21 and not whatever age Dumbledore was). But I can see where you're coming from.

[@svetlanamalavina4350]

Thank you very much, loghain voice actor is amazing

[@JCommentsB]

It's awesome how they put so much time into the voice acting and bickering of all the different character's in the warden's party, one of the reasons why this game is so damn great!

[@notahamster333]

It's a heavy-dialogue game. Awesome!

[@GUNDAMURX73]

I did Ostagar last night, much before I have a chance to decide how I'm treating Loghain. But these dialogues right here re-inforce my gut feeling that he's a really well written antagonist. Allistair just kind of ignored the elephant in the room here-- Cailan was trysting with Empress Celene, and with the truth of that you can see all of Loghain's fears laid bare. Cailan really was going to throw away the independence Loghain and Maric worked so hard to secure, and lead Ferelden right back into the waiting arms of Orlais. The same arms that brutalized the Ferelden people. What Loghain did was villainous, but from the perspective of "preserving Ferelden"... his choices make sense.

[@twinzzlers]

If you read the full codex, it states that Cailan was pissed about it, and was only doing it to mend relations and form an alliance.

[@brandonlyon730]

@@twinzzlers Even if that was the case, I’m sure many people would’ve still seen it as him selling out his own country to there brutal occupiers.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

​@@twinzzlers Form an alliance with a nation that treated that betrayals and assasinations as Games? I'm no Josephine, but that sounds like a stupid idea.

[@twinzzlers]

@brahmantyoihsan5938 I'm no Josephine either but that sounds preferable to dying en masse to a Blight

[@sonwukong666]

What I personally like about Loghain is that he is not a man who betrays his king to gain something, he makes what he feels is a necessary tough decision in what he believes is best for the people. It is unfortunate that the books came out after everyone had long played the game and already decided who the character was. There is so much in his past that also defines who Loghain is and the fact that such rich history was denied to us for so long was unfortunate.

[@ryoyamada8579]

Oh as a cousland on my very first play through he had me shaking with anger at the landsmeet😂 Killed the bastard 100/100 will do again

[@A.76-v4z]

I too do

[@jimmylittle9393]

Doing a replay atm and looking forward to killing him lol

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

But why? Loghain was NOT involved in the Couslands massacre. Howe's plan would have failed if Cailan survived at Ostagar (the king promised Human Noble Warden that he would bring Howe to justice), and Loghain tried to keep Cailan safe by warning him to stay off the battlefield. If Cailan actually listened to his general, he would still be alive. Sure, Loghain allied himself with Howe, but only because he needed someone to do the dirty jobs. Loghain was a hero in the eye of most Fereldan; he needed to keep his hands clean to maintain his image and keep the public faith in him.

[@MrPsych77]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 shows you how much he cares about justice huh. Who cares if a family and a Castle full of people gets brutally massacred as long as I have a useful ally. F**k all the elves that died in highever and the capital from Howe's purging. I need to maintain my public image.

[@MrPsych77]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 you literally just answered why. Because loghain had allied with the man who killed his family. That would make him an enemy

[@sephirich]

I agree with you--after reading the books, I was mortified with Loghain's actions. I couldn't believe it. However, we need to keep in mind that his relationship with MARIC was quite different from that of CAILAN. Maric and Cailan are starkly different people, son or no. I think Loghain saw beyond title, and grew to like and trust Maric precisely because he had merit--not because he was the rightful heir.

[@TheLordgorgor]

say what you may about him if you hate him, but i admire and respect loghain for sticking by and not going back on his decisions or his opinions. No matter how much guilt tripping everyone else gives him he cant change it and he wouldnt in the first place but he does regret that his decisions no matter the logical they are, have cost alot of himself and of others his life.

[@aaron75fy]

indeed, you can't blame a man for the actions an enemy does. I find more people anti logain for an action he hasn't taken retreating a battlefield is not the same as murder no matter how much you say it is also there's some dumb bug that prevents you from marrying Anora if he dies, well at least as far as I can tell, I even fulfilled the requirements (human noble background, convinced Anora to tie the knot having Alistair deliver the killing blow ect)

[@DragonHeart613]

Aaron Page Dude Anora only refuses to marry you if you are the one to kill Loghain. If you want your Male Human Noble Grey Warden to marry Anora & be king than after you defeat Loghain in combat, Alistair must be the one to execute him after the duel ends. If you want Alistair to marry Anora than the Warden must be the one to take Loghain's head. Bottomline: Anora will not marry her father's executioner. Hope that helps :)

[@aaron75fy]

DragonHeart613 no it doesn't because she still didn't marry me

[@arbiteras]

you have to talk to her after the mission "Rescue the Queen" ask her why you should choose her instead of alistair,then an option should pop up "Persuade:you'll need a strong king at your side" you need three points of coercion to pass that check and select "marry me and you'll have my support" Then at the landsmeet let Alistair (not hardened) duel loghain,after Loghain is dead,Eamon says that alistair is going to be king,but Alistair refuses and lets you choose the ruler,to be king you have to select "I'll rule at Queen Anora's side as her husband" Then it's done. At the end is mentioned that she's marrying you and she'll say "Let me formally introduce my bethroed,who shall soon be your king"

[@aaron75fy]

King Derner Cousland I don't know who you're talking to but...no I did all those steps and it made no difference

[@DarkKing009]

Cailan was looking out for Alistair. By giving Alistair & PC the easy job at ostagar.

[@jonathanturull8508]

I feel like he knew allistair was his half-brother and wanted to make sure he got out of there in case something like what lighting did happened. He probably thought that there was a chance he'd be abandoned rather than helped and ensured someone would survive, but we won't know that for sure.

[@DarkKing009]

@@jonathanturull8508 King Cailan saves the protagonist through nepotism by giving his younger brother Alistair an easy job. The king was aware of Alistair being his younger half-brother but did not meet each other until Alistair was an adult. Neither was aware of Alistair being in a half-elf.

[@flixization]

This is interesting. I never thought to take Loghain back to Ostagar. It really adds another dimension to his character, especially the parts that make you think he may have been right (not just paranoid) about Orlais. As an aside, I always wondered why Duncan never just came out and said "We KNOW this is a true blight, because we older Grey Wardens can hear the archdemon."

[@spacejesus6581]

I wish the warden could have been on the battlefield, or you took temporary control of Duncan Cailen a mage and a random soldier, defeat as many darkspawn as possible, and once everyone goes down that segment ends

[@spiraloutward]

@BitsOfLint Thing is, lots of people have read the books - in which Loghain was, in fact, a good guy. It also explains a great deal about his character and gives some insight as to why he made some of the choices he did. (Book is called The Stolen Throne, by David Gaider, in case you're interested)

[@trolldrool]

I'm going to be honest, this opened my eyes to how annoyingly idealistic Wynne can be. For all her talk about how horrible wars can be, she still romanticizes them. From watching the cutscene, it's obvious that numbers of darkspawn attacking Ostagar were far too many for the Grey Wardens to take on at all, and that even if Loghain had done as he was supposed to, his army would've been greatly depleted afterwards. And this was only the first wave of darkspawn. And yet for all her compassion and kindness, the fact that a king was betrayed is worse to Wynne than the fact that thousands of soldiers would've had to die to save him.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

That's just how she was: a preachy know-it-all who thought herself wiser than most simply because of her age. Even if they managed to kill every darkspawn at Ostagar, and I highly doubt they could, the absence of the Archdemon means the Blight would still continue. Besides, ten thousand casualties or so meant nothing to the darkspawn because the Fifth Blight horde was greater than any of the previous Blights.

[@reyon2673]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 This is all conjecture. Where was it mentioned that the Fifth Blight horde was greater than all the others? As other commenters have pointed out on this video, Cailan had Orlesian chevaliers and Grey Wardens coming as support, in addition to Loghain's forces, not to mention all the forces Duncan or the Fereldan Grey Wardens could have gathered with the treaties, and that quicker and more easily than the Warden managed to. The events at Ostagar could potentially have ended very differently, or the immediate aftermath of the battle would not have been even half as devastating, if not for Loghain disposing of several tools at once, usurping the throne and starting a civil war on top of the Blight. How many lives were lost to Loghain or the Warden's party and not the darkspawn at all? That is the reason Wynne and other Fereldans (and players) burn so intensely with spite over him. Wynne doesn't let go because he made an already horrible situation that much worse for all involved, and frankly, I agree with her.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@reyon2673 You want facts? Very well. The Fifth Blight horde was noted in *Codex entry: Stalata Negat* to have numbers beyond anything in their record. "The spawn are moving freely and have numbers even the Memories haven't seen." This would suggest that the horde was even larger than the First Blight - which wouldn't be surprising, since the darkspawn had twice as long to build their numbers compared to the usual Blights. *Cailan had Orlesian Chevaliers and Grey Wardens* It's weird that he would reach out to Orlais, the very nation that enslaved his country for 70 years in the last century. Why didn't Cailan reach out to the Grey Wardens of Free Marches or Antiva? Sure, Orlais is closer, but there's no reason NOT to invite the Grey Wardens from other neighboring nations. More importantly, Loghain would be less inclined to reject his idea. There was only two weeks sailing time between Kirkwall and Gwaren, and that wad with a storm (according to Varric in DA2 prologue); and the Grey Wardens had 17 years to prepare for the Blight. If Cailan had sent them letters before he left for Ostagar, he would have them within the country before the Battle of Ostagar. *Not to mention all the forces Duncan or the Ferelden Grey Warden could have gathered with the treaties.* Did you miss the part where they only recovered the documents the day before the battle? Not to mention, it would take more time to recruit those forces. The distance from Circle tower to Orzammar alone would take no less than 18 days (according to Dagna) and that's not counting the time needed to organize the army. *The events at Ostagar could potentially have ended very differently* Indeed it could. If Cailan had listened to Loghain's warning and not fight on the frontline like an idiot, he would still be alive. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the battle had grim prospect. Victory was not only difficult; it was also futile since there was no Archdemon. Winning the battle wouldn't bring them any closer to defeating the Blight. *Loghain disposing of several tools at once, usurping the throne, and starting the civil war on top of the Blight* Firstly, Loghain declared himself regent, not king. Completely different things. Secondly, he became regent with the approval of his daughter the Queen. And finally, he was a brilliant general. Only an idiot would refuse the leadership of a brilliant general when their country is at war. The ones who started the civil war were idiots like Teagan and the other nobles, who can only make assumptions despite not seeing the battle themselves. *That is the reason Wynne and other Fereldans (and players) burn so intensely with spite over him.* That's funny, because Wynne, too, left Cailan to die at Ostagar. She berated for Loghain for not saving Cailan, even though she never made the attempt herself. As for other Fereldans, well, they were uneducated fickle peasants. One moment they worshipped Loghain and hunted the Wardens, the next they condemned Loghain as traitor and praised the Wardens as heroes.

[@reyon2673]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 You got way too heated over a reply 😂 Do you always get that bothered when someone disagrees with you?

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@reyon2673 Sorry, I don't listen to provocation. If you can't make any rebuttal then I consider this debate settled.

[@thealphaomega4888]

Loghain is a fucking sigma. Gives no fucks about whose feelings he offends just cares about his country and his daughter. Can’t help but respect him

[@gunstarheroine5173]

The audacity of Loghain calling Wynne 'old woman' when he's canonically OLDER than her It's giving Phyllis "Michael, we're the same age" lol

[@cthulhuhoops]

Loghain is legit my fave character in Origins.

[@heatherwind]

Such brilliant writing. It's a true credit to David Gaider and the DA team that even watching this video makes me want to kill Loghain all over again. It takes a really well-developed character to elicit that much emotional investment from me, and the DA writers have certainly succeeded in that. It's one of the major reason why I so dearly love this game and the world of Thedas. GO WYNNE!

[@ayylmaotv]

I still don't know which action was the best to take at ostagar. There's the route where loghain's army follows through with the plan and doesn't retreat and the route we see in game where loghain retreats. What would have happened if the arch demon had showed up at the battle if loghain decided not to retreat?

[@kannbrown65]

Well, if Loghain and Howe hadn't already made sure at least 4 other armies weren't there to help out? They may have truly ended the Blight at Ostagar. They had wardens there, so someone could kill the Archdemon.

[@originalname610]

Ayylmaotv jumpscare

[@anthonyernst999]

If Loghain hadn't lied and made villains of the heroes, I would've forgiven him easily.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

"I couldn't stop the king from charging into his own death, but you guys will still let me lead, right?" Obviously, he couldn't just say that. He needed a scapegoat to explain the loss of Ostagar and the Wardens seemed like the perfect target: dead men tell no tales and the Order did try to kill Ferelden king twice in the past. It was a bad idea since Wardens are the only ones who can kill Archdemons, but Loghain didn't know that. How could he, when the Wardens kept that secret from their own recruits?

[@Desintyx2]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 wow, years of Loggy apologia and you're still here doing it, it's honestly fascinating to see you bend over backwards to excuse everything he does. I like him as a character, I've spared him a few times, but your devotion is insane. And it's bad faith at it's best. In regard to Ostagar...Yes, actually, Loggy can just say "The King made a bad plan even I couldn't save him from, but I can save all you" (or something like that) he doesn't need a scapegoat. This is a beauty of having a king, they remove responsibility from their council and anyone who knew Cally would know he's impetuous and emotional. Just like he didn't need to support Arl Howe, he made a bad choice, because he's a bad leader. He chose to choose to scapegoat the GW, because he's an idiot. You know, blaming the order that has saved the world repeatedly from the threat you're now facing, when you're facing it for the first time in generations? Loggy has some bad moments, but that is truly stupid. Another is making Arl Eamon his enemy, when they could have worked together to create stability in a post-Ostagar Ferelden. It's fine, the point of Log-Log is that he's blinded by his emotions and paranoia, but the fact you clearly don't get that is funny.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@Desintyx2 I don't know you, but I'm not interested in arguing someone who called people names out of nowhere. Sorry for wasting your effort with those paragraphs.

[@Keram-io8hv]

@@Desintyx2 Yeah you are bursting sht out of all your holes right here "Order that saved the world" yeah in Old stories now are Wardens more distrusted Bad leader? Now you aren´t just bursting sht out but even stuffing it back inside

[@XellDincht]

i would never choose Loghain over Alistair but the betrayer is a interesting character and this dialogs are brilliant

[@Maciej797973]

he is amazing :) loghain i've done return to ostagar with loghain his speech about the orlais was amzing i'mean celine

[@madax132]

@Elisabetta611 The country of Fereldan obviously has mixed morals, other than weaponry it is not completely representative of any particular time. There are no small arms or artillery so it would be somewhere in the dark ages, yet the chantry doesn't rule, it is largely a monarchy. This is long ago yet there isn't mass homophobia. Furthermore whether you like it or not your using morals that you believe in 2010 to judge in game characters.

[@jon2270]

As much as I agree Loghain deserved to die for everything he did I always make him a Warden at the Landsmeet. Think about it. He is an old war general who will probably die soon anyway of old age or in battle or when he goes for his Calling. Whichever comes first. He was stripped of his Terynship and has no real power anymore. He can no longer do anymore harm and he seems obedient to orders from the Wardens. In Awakening he was ordered to go to Orlais and he goes anyway. I mean Orlais of all places. The country he despises, went to war with for years, and would rather see his country burn than accept an Orlesian alliance, and he just goes. I think now Loghain can do more good than harm in his current position with the Wardens even if it is just him slaying a bunch of Darkspawn.

[@AlienBusDriver1]

dude loghain is not that old. he is in his mid 60s i think

[@jon2270]

AlienBusDriver1 He's still cool in Inquisition

[@AlienBusDriver1]

John Primrose yep

[@KazumiKiguma]

John Primrose I really like how the entire event at Ostagar is taken into question when talking to Solas in Inquisition. How he says he'd seen the battle in the dreams of the Fade, and that some of them saw Loghain abandoning them, while others saw it as a hopeless fight even with Loghain's forces and that the retreat kept more men from dying useless deaths. The thing a lot of people seem to forget, as it's a game and so people don't realize that time is still going by, is that you were held back while going to light the fire at the tower, it was supposed to be lit sooner, and for all we know Loghain may have sent his troops in if it had been...but the darkspawn kept us from being able to light it on time, and who knows how much actually passed by while fighting your way there. However, Loghain's actions after the fact, which are obviously caused by fear, are foul and unacceptable. I chose to make him a Grey Warden for the same reason they send people to the The Wall in ASOIAF, his life is forfeit, and if he truly wishes to redeem himself, that's the best way. And considering what he does in Inquisition, he certainly fucking did.

[@LuizAntonio-zs7ko]

But you see... all that is metagaming knowledge. It doesn't work as a reason for your character to trust him.

[@ispaceghost]

I like the idea of Oghren and the Warden both just standing there staring at Logain and Wynne arguing with each other.

[@610Hobbies]

My frickin' God, this game may hadn't had the best graphics nor gameplay, but the story was so goddamn epic, R.I.P. classic Bioware.

[@Selvar345]

The intricate politics of imaginary fantasy worlds=serious business. lol

[@elisabetta611]

That was....WOW. Never thought of waiting to do that quest till after the Landsmeet with Loghain... My God, how sad!

[@madax132]

@Elisabetta611 Cailan had an arranged marriage to start off, then there's the fact that Anora cannot bear children, Cailan was going off what his advisers had told him so that the Therin bloodline could continue. As I have said before there is a reason why people in dragon age are the way they are, Cailan was raised on tales of his fathers glory and was intent on defending his country as a hero, keep in mind that for that time it was pretty rare for a king to fight on the front lines.

[@Rudie95]

I don't think Ostagar was a fools battle in any sense. The plan was sound. When Loghain retreats you can see thousands of torches indicating just how large his forces were. Flanking the Darkspawn would not only have surprised them, but reinvigorated those who were already fighting on the front lines and sometimes all you need is to demoralise your enemy while raising your own morale to turn the tide of a battle. No, I believe that Loghain WANTED to believe the battle was a lost cause so he could be rid of Cailan and isolate Ferelden from Orlais as much as he could. As much as this is true, however, executing him is a waste. I would rather send him to his death against the Darkspawn and have him die that way, taking as many spawn down as he can with him, than simply being executed.

[@KazumiKiguma]

Okay, yeah, he had a lot of men, but remember just how many the Darkspawn had in comparison. The plan WAS sound, until one, fatal, flaw: The signal was lit late. By the time you light the signal, a huge amount of Kailan's forces are already wiped out, and even if he had flanked them at that point, there is no guarantee they would have been able to hold fast against them. Not to mention the Archdemon hadn't even made an appearance yet. He may not have known if one was actually going to show up, but just taking that into consideration, along with the forces already lost, his decision was completely legitimate...it's his actions afterwards, hiring assassins, allying with Howe who murdered the Couslands, etc., that give the real cause for execution. I still choose to conscript him though.

[@LuizAntonio-zs7ko]

When we first meet Loghain, he is telling Caillan not to fight in the front lines. He may be guilty of many things, but not of planning Caillan's death.

[@Rudie95]

Luiz Antonio He may have tried to persuade Caillan out of his plans to fight on front lines etc, but ultimately when he saw he could not dissuade Caillan he decided to abandon him and consequently kill him.

[@ummiehummie]

+Rudie95 If you really believe that, you don't know Loghain at all.

[@thegreenassassin553]

+Rudie95 Cailan died before the signal was lit, or very soon after. Whatever Loghain would have done, Cailan's own rash actions already got himself killed.

[@elisabetta611]

Cailan betrayed both his wife and his own kingdom. So let's not turn fools into heroes.

[@SWEMartin]

Apart from Loghains doubt, or rather lack of knowledge, of the Grey wardens crucial part in defeating the arch demon and ending a blight, I actually come to side with him more and more the more I learn about the backstory of DA:O. Cailan was a fool and cared nothing for strategy but only about his own reputation and dreams of glory. And who knows what would happened they waited for the Orlais to come but I totally understand Loghains mistrust and hate for them. Remember that the guy spend most of his life either oppressed by them as rulers or at war with them. Ofc he would feel a great deal of mistrust and based on how everyone is backstabbing everyone, rightfully so.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

Orlais has a history of betraying Nevarra after the Third Blight. Their chevaliers are infamous for having the privilege to take whatever they want from commoners; their nobles treat betrayals and assassinations as games; and their ruler ascended the throne after assassinating the previous emperor, who was her own family. Loghain was right to be skeptical. There's a LOT of reasons to distrust Orlais.

[@twinzzlers]

​@@brahmantyoihsan5938But Cailan was also right, alone Fereldan would fall to the Darkspawn.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@twinzzlers He's also the same guy who said, and I quote: "Eamon just wants in on the glory. We've won three battles against these monsters and tomorrow should be no different." ...before diving head first into the vanguard, while ignoring the warnings from both Eamon and Loghain. Of course, I agree with you: no single nation has the power to take on a Blight - barring special exception like the Fifth Blight where they got saved by a walking plot armor called Flemeth; and one-man army called the Warden. The problem is, the Grey Wardens chose to bring their reinforcement from Orlais, of all places. The Grey Wardens had detected the Blight as early as 9:25 and they had years to prepare for it. They could have brought reinforcement from Anderfels, Nevarra or Free Marches. But no, they brought their reinforcement from Orlais, the very nation who occupied and enslaved Ferelden for 70+ years in the last century; and the Grey Wardens did this not long after they tried to kill Ferelden kings *twice*. It's almost as bad as inviting the Qunari Antaam to Tevinter. Did the subtlety of politic escape them or are the Wardens seriously *that* dumb?

[@twinzzlers]

@brahmantyoihsan5938 First, I got a question, is that a retcon? That aside, it absolutely makes sense, who says those other nations aren't already indisposed? And Orlais is closer and Cailan is being married to Celene, which would reign their forces in.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@twinzzlers Retcon? Which part do you mean? "Who says those other nations aren't already indisposed?" The Blight was still contained in Ferelden. And the Grey Wardens had five years to prepare, so "Orlais is the only one they could reach" is not an excuse. It only took Hawke and their family two weeks of sailing to travel from Gwaren to Kirkwall - and that was with a storm. Cailan never married Celene. He only considered the idea; but he was killed before he could make it official. Good thing, too, because Celene would have played him like a fiddle. We're talking about the woman who assassinated her own uncle and stole the throne from behind Gaspard - all while she was 16 year old.

[@elisabetta611]

@Manchevo The story yes, however it still isn't know WHY until the end of the game. Duncan never tells you. Alistair doesn't know. Nobody knows why only the Wardens can kill the archdemon. And most don't believe it actually IS a Blight. His civil war? The civil war was started by the Bannorn. There is no need to see him as a hero, he doesn't care about being a hero. He wants to atone and find redemption by sacrificing his life to end the Blight.

[@MrJustinArt]

"Even Cailan, for all his bravado, knew there would be no victory at Ostagar." Then why charge headlessly into battle and get completely gang raped by the darkspawn while knowing you'll achieve absolutely nothing? Sorry, developers, even if you tried to make Cailain seem a little intelligent in this DLC he'll always be the damn fool who got his men and the Grey Wardens killed for nothing.

[@louis8487]

What other choice did he have? A large darkspawn horde (army) was heading for his kingdom, he could only take advantage of a choke point that if they won would've stopped the darkspawn from spreading throughout the country. Really Loghain was the one who fucked it up by abandoning him and also arguing at every point not to accept help from either Teagan or the Orlesians. With the support of Orlais(close enough spelling) and Teagan and Loghain's forces there would've been a good enough chance of defeating the horde. When it came to the actual battle if Loghain didn't flee with his forces there was a small chance at victory, which would've been better than nothing when it comes to stopping a blight. Also a dying character claiming Cailain didn't expect to win doesn't actually mean it is fact.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@louis8487 Cailan was a king. The idea of a king, much less one without heir like him, fighting on the front line is beyond stupid. What other choice did he have, you asked? Oh, if only he had two wise men cautioning him of the danger that comes from fighting on the front line... Oh that's right, he ignored Eamon's and Loghain's warnings. And Loghain only retreated because it was too late to charge in. By the time the signal came, most of soldiers that were stationed at the ruins would have been dead already. Risking _thousands_ of fresh soldiers just to save _hundreds_ of injured ones is sheer folly. You said that they should wait for reinforcement from Orlais and Teagan (don't you mean Eamon? Teagan was the little brother and a minor Bann) but it's not as if the darkspawn would wait for them to be ready.

[@supergoodadvice853]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 He was counting on the support of two other armies, that Loghain caused to not show. Reinforcements wouldn't have come from the others, but the Cousland army could have evened the tide at the least.

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@supergoodadvice853 Couslands army already departed for Ostagar. Did you even play the game? Did you miss the entire part of Human Noble prologue, where you were asked to tell your brother to leave early with Highever men? "Your brother has arrived with Highever's men, but we're still awaiting your father." (Cailan to Human Noble when the latter first arrived to Ostagar)

[@CJ739]

@@brahmantyoihsan5938 I think from a realistic stand point you're correct that Cailan shouldnt have fought alongside the wardens, but this is fantasy and as we often see in fantasy, morale and exceptionally individuals are worth potentially thousands of normal soldiers. Having the king fighting alongside you is a massive morale boost for the army and Cailan himself was an extremely capable warrior. It's not like he was some weakling who didnt know how to swing a sword he was great in battle and reducing your chance to win because you might die when you have the ability to make a difference can be seen as foolish in another way. He also said let's wait for reinforcements but Loghain shut that down so he said this will have to do. He wanted to be a hero like in the tales, yes, but he actually had ability and wasnt a coward. He was willing to personally fight for his kingdom in the most dangerous area and that deserves respect.

[@elisabetta611]

@madax132 Er.......in the scene where Anora begins to doubt her father, it is clear that he is winning the civil war. As it also confirmed by Bodhan when you ask him about rumors. The "Loghain's Push" quest you are referring to is happening AFTER the civil war has begun.

[@sootythunder]

I have come to like loghain a lot, not for his portrayl in this game, but for his portyral in the book the stolen throne, and I have to agree that the Calians plan was utterly moronic, however I really liked his more mellowed out DA:I role, and I admit that I let Hawke die so Loghain could live......I get the feeling he is going to be useful against Solas in the next dragon age game

[@Warnern317]

The stolen throne changed the way I viewed Loghain... I love him. I also left hawke for Loghain.

[@TheDarkSeren]

I just finished that book, and have started on the calling. I still can't forgive him for doing what he did.

[@Warnern317]

+Rebecca Hamilton I am all but in love with loghain... I hate what he did but I still love him.

[@TheDarkSeren]

I understand, I really liked him in the first book, but in the game he is a different man. I think all the pain and hurt he has gone through has twisted his soul. Loosing Rowan, was probably the last straw!! Reminds me of the Danish Elf Keeper, who was so full of pain and hate, that it consumed him!! I still might, spare him in one of my play through. But poor Alistair, can't marry him off on Anora, she is a bitch!!

[@TheDarkSeren]

I bought the first 4 books, because of Dragon Age!! :) I have all the games also, for my XBOX 360, wish there was mods for that!!

[@sarahIcommented]

@gv1955 Um he did tell Cailan not to do it. More than once. He told him to wait for Eamon's troops also. But Cailan didn't listen. And you can't exactly make the king do anything he doesn't want to.

[@fumeking701]

Guy stabbed through the abdominal area ... last for 3 fcking minutes ...

[@Veritanky]

+Obi Oraa "magic"

[@sonwukong666]

@Elisabetta611 Actually they arrived at my bookstore after the game came out, but yes that is true, but a lot of this history should be put in with the game because it loses something if you don't. Either way i still stand by my decision on liking Loghain and feel that he also embodies those that dislike him.

[@PatchGaming22]

One of the derpiest wardens I’ve seen haha

[@amberhernandez]

Oghren: "Did I leave the stove on...?"

[@taanlasmoodsmeadow]

I REALLY LOVED IT WHEN LOGHAIN SAID " THAT CHEATING BASTARD!"

[@Sw3rt0]

Howe did that on his own, that was before Ostagar, and before Loghain started plotting to "save ferelden". There are some conversation choices that bring this up, and more or less the idea that howe and Loghain were plotting to kill the Couselands together is a bit silly.

[@jasonleslie203]

Loghain is obsessed with the past. He's some how convinced himself that the other country was interested in retaking fereldon. True it could happen in the future or they simply make peace with the past cut their losses & leave it at that or they could unite threw blood & marriage. A king/queen of both kingdoms.

[@leoncoben6983]

It's also a matter of pride. Do you think anyone in the U.S. would've been happy to hear about being under Britain's rules after kicking them out in a war? No way in hell. Everyone would've rather die than to bow to an enemy they defeated. We didn't even care to make nice with them until a hundred years later when they needed help with WWII.

[@jasonleslie203]

@@leoncoben6983 while i can see that their war for independence was still fresh, he was obcessed with thinking they wanted the country back. And in the DLC we see threw papers the king trying to end the bad blood due to the seperation. But i doubt logain would have taken it seriously. He probably would say " this is a total lie set up in order to reclaim our lands under their rule" or something to that affect

[@leoncoben6983]

@@jasonleslie203 Considering Celene burned an entire Alienage just to cover up who was in her bed that suspicion is very valid.

[@jasonleslie203]

@@leoncoben6983 the way theyre treated at the alienage in fereldon aint much better

[@leoncoben6983]

@@jasonleslie203 Yeah but the elves' suffering wasn't the point of what I said it was the fact that Celene slaughtered people for such a petty thing. If Celene's lover been a human she'd still be in hot water for her lover being a woman. You know not ensuring her bloodline and providing an blood heir for her empire? If the girl was just a common village girl Celene would've wiped the village of the map once she was discovered. It would've been harder for her to do but she would've done it nonetheless. Loghain's hatred isn't petty when it's based on the past suffering he endured and witnessed. His worries have some basis. It's also not comforting that they still identified as an empire, not a kingdom meaning they still wanted to expand. Isn't that the same reason everyone still so cautions of the Imperium after all?

[@elisabetta611]

@madax132 He gets the troops and fights the uprisings in the Bannorn. Winning every battle. He does not want a civil war, however. As for occupations, no one who lived through such horrors, will forget it. And before you judge Loghain: Imagine an occupation, the people occupying your country gang raping and killing your mother while forcing you to watch...(As a child) The Orlesian occupation was HORRIFIC.

[@MrUniq]

Wow...I'm going to enjoy killing Loghain when we battle. I watched this b/c I'd probably never choose him unless it's an absolutely evil character.

[@autumnpeirson6563]

I kicked and screamed and told Duncan he could not make me serve against my will!....Well, I guess I was wrong.

[@madax132]

This just made me sure that I'm going to sever loghains head with my pc next time. So utterly unremorseful and besides that completely disrespectful to Cailans memory. The worst part of it all is that he uses the excuse of being practical while he alienated half of Ferelden and completely denied aid based off a decades old paranoia. Cailan wasn't a bad guy and was really a well meaning and quite brave character. continued

[@jeanhenrique8427]

hope you played inquisition when it was relased, one of the orelsian generals at the fereldan uprising is just one of the options for the empire, and he kinda seems like a guy who makes all loghain's paranoia make sense

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

@@jeanhenrique8427 At least Gaspard was upfront about his desire to invade Ferelden again. Celene almost got Cailan hand Ferelden on a silver platter.

[@SolarisParadox]

@CherryTerri He's a standard sword-and-shield character with a Champion specialization. (I forget what his other specialization is, or even if you get to choose it.) He also comes equipped with the Armor of the River Dane set, which has some great bonuses but is restricted to Loghain only, and a shield that's similarly restricted to himself. He's pretty good, but by the time you reach him you may have invested more thought into Alistair's growth--tactically, recruiting Loghain can be a pain.

[@Mcmadness288]

Amuses me how much Loghain apologists are willing to ignore to justify his actions.

[@Desintyx2]

yep haha

[@AnnoyingAsianWitch]

Well, although it's sad to lose Duncan, Loghain was right. Even if they sent in more people, they would have died all the same. The Archdemon still lives and Broodmothers are aplenty. Cailan was too dumb too live anyway. Long live King Alistair & Queen Anora ^^

[@elisabetta611]

@madax132 You do realize that this isn't actually how he feels? That he too his haunted by terrible memories there and that this is his way of coping? That Wynne is egging him on with ignorant nonsense? That Cailan betrayed both his nation and his wife who happens to be Loghain's daughter? That Cailan was almost too stupid to breathe? You have never lived through the horrors of an occupation, have you? All that aside: "That CHEATING BASTARD!" made me LOL once again.

[@elisabetta611]

@Linxer22 No, they obviously cannot, after reading "The Stolen Throne". I see nothing lacking in the uniqueness of his character or his dignity. (His major flaw is being a bad politician, he should have just remained a general) And characters and dignity never won a war, they may be important personally, but this isn't about personal likes or dislikes, this is about governing a nation.

[@WailingBard]

Harden Alistair and he'll want to be king. And it's not really letting him get away. Instead of execution, you offer redemption. Sten killed a farmhold, Zevran has killed a whole bunch by this point. Lesser crimes, perhaps, but the principle. Redemption. What does execution achieve? Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Loghain, as a Grey Warden, can try to make up for what he's done. Alistair has every right to be extremely pissed with the decision, but that doesn't mean it's the right one.

[@codysellers4151]

based Loghain.

[@n0wheregrrl]

A lot of people take the position that, while Loghain may have been (extremely) wrong, making him a warden is a good "punishment" and a way for him to do penance. There are two problems I see with this: Firstly, as this video shows, Loghain pretty much thinks he did the right thing. This isn't a journey of redemption for him because for that to be the case, he'd have to realize he was wrong to begin with. Secondly, and both perhaps more importantly as well as more immediately obvious, there are very good reasons to question his trustworthiness as a comrade-in-arms. I mean, knowing what you already know about all he did, is this REALLY the guy you want watching your back in battle? REALLY? Because I'm not entirely sure I'd want to trust him to go get a carton of milk, much less shoulder the responsibilities involved in being a grey warden.

[@KazumiKiguma]

Which background did you pick? Was it the one where as a city elf you, in vengeance, commit a mass murder? Maybe the one where, as a mage, you assisted a Blood Mage in escaping the circle tower? Oh, maybe it was the dwarf commoner who commits several crimes for the Carta? Remember, the Grey Wardens pardon your crimes when you join them, but only because by joining them, your life becomes forfeit. Why should any of them be trusted? What really makes him any different if you think about it? You're playing Duncan in the moment where you can conscript him, and what do you think he'd do? Oh, wait, no, I worded that wrong...what DID he do for half of the origins you could have picked?

[@n0wheregrrl]

Rukifellth The Shadow The City Elf was attacked and is trying to save a friend from rape. The people being killed pretty much deserve the shit out of it. The Circle and Chantry and Templars ... I don't even want to get into that one. Suffice it to say I kill every Templar that Dragon Age games allow me to kill and was only pissed at Anders for not letting me help him do the little thing he did, and that might tell you where I fall on THAT topic. More slavers; kill on sight. The Dwarf Commoner is in a circumstance she couldn't help (had no choice whatsoever) and can STILL opt to do the nice thing. Nothing any of the origins can do, even doing their worst, can even come close to Loghain's crimes, and he can't even use the excuses some of the other origins can use about being railroaded into their circumstances because Loghain himself orchestrated this mess. He proved there is absolutely no limit to how far he'll go and no low to which he won't sink, and while some may find that a virtue, I'm sorry ... I wouldn't trust him to go pick up milk at the grocery store, much less have my back in any kind of military organization.

[@EmoBearRights]

Rukifellth The Shadow I'm not as zealous as n0wheregrrl but the said blood mage was my mate and I had no reason not believe him when he lied to me about saying he wasn't - so the mage warden's 'crime' was one of trusting the wrong guy who was his or her friend against the templars and Gregoir wasn't Meredith but he wasn't the cuddliest guy in the world so it was believable that he would see blood magic where there wasn't blood magic. He lied to his beloved on the subject too - also I had played DA2 first so kinda of viewed templars as shit-heads out of character at the time. I still maintain as well that Jowan was more misguided fool than actually devious shit-head.

[@Bacxaber]

n0wheregrrl It's because he was supposed to be possessed by a pride demon this whole time, but that was cut from the game.

[@n0wheregrrl]

***** That would have certainly made it more understandable ...

[@bloodyTyrant66]

"Warden Commander armor",you can get it from warden commander sophia Dryden if you kill her on the "Soldiers peak DLC".

[@angeliquetheirin2588]

Wow! Loghain was even more delusional than I thought! I only saved him once just for the achievement and it broke my heart to watch Alistair leave. I think if I took Loghain to Ostagar with me and learned all this I would murder him myself standing right there.

[@TheBenoliPx]

Angelique Theirin should've done what I did. Save the game before the landsmeet for the achievement then revert save and kill him! Sorted :)

[@777Krisztian]

Or save him cause it is the wise clever thing. If he would have charged everyone would have died. He was delusional yes but he made the right choice there. He does deserve a punishment to serve in Orlais as a Warden. It softens him, he realises his mistakes..As you see in Inqusition

[@RopeDrink]

Delusional, how? It has been years since that comment so I assume you're aware that DA:I has all but confirmed that Loghain's forces at Ostagar would have been massacred along with everyone else even if he had stayed. The fault rests on Cailan for thinking that waltzing out for a heroic death was a good idea for a king, and turns out that yes, Cailan had been in talks with Orlais, much to Loghain's disdain. Loghain tried to discourage Cailan at Ostagar to no avail - it's obvious Loghain never sought Cailan's death, just as much as it was obvious Cailan's plan at Ostagar was nonsensical suicide. He was certainly overly paranoid about Orlais, but delusional? Not even close.

[@SeventhheavenDK]

@@777Krisztian . Save him wise? Lol, just no. Clever or not at Ostagar. Everything he did AFTER Ostagar was truly wrong and has no excuse. So, no. It is isnt wise, especially if your warden is friends with Alistair.

[@SeventhheavenDK]

@@RopeDrink . Can you tell me when was this confirmed in inquisition? Because it isnt true. Solas never confirms anything. And the Quartermaster at Haven is Loghain's fangirl, so she is bias.

[@KalElSupermanKrypton]

Liquids? Geth physiology? What in Andraste's name are you talking about?

[@henrikknudsen]

In the expanded lore in The Stolen Throne greatly explains his motivations and his character. Not that I approve of expanded lore in general, but yeah...

[@Fgundam]

the companions that will remember something when returning to ostagar are the Dog, Wyne, and alister or loghain.

[@johngun7418]

What bothers me is the fact that the game punishes you for letting Loghain live. I thought Grey Wardens took anyone regardless of what they've done to fight the blight? I always let him live because my character is a GREY WARDEN, puts his/her feelings aside to defeat the archdemon, and ignores Alistair's hissy fit. It's funny too because Duncan became a Grey Warden after murdering one and making Loghain do the joining mirrors that. I guess Alistair just never knew.

[@chancemattox3151]

john gun he knew but the man is responsible for the death of his half brother sometimes there's just no easy answer hence grey meaning middle or neutral

[@KalElSupermanKrypton]

However, Alistair doesn't deserve to die.

[@mattxander8976]

The interesting thing is that even when you first meet Cailan and he walks off, you can tell Duncan that you think he’s not taking the darkspawn seriously. To which even Duncan replies, “true...”. To be be honest, I never understood why anyone had some great attachment to Duncan or the grey wardens. Duncan basically forces you to join to either save you or so you can save yourself cause you have no other option, and then doesn’t say a word about the joining etc. Then murders Jory because he actually has some common sense and says “woah what the hell is going on here, you can’t make me drink that crap”. Then after all that, they also fail to tell you that your new life expectancy is like 20-30 years more before you go crazy and start dying. So guess what, to the deeproads you go to suicide yourself vs armies of dark spawn. My character had zero loyalty to the grey wardens at all. And Loghain was right not to trust them. Not to mention that even if you do some heinous crap in your origin story, Duncan could care less and just wants you for your skill/power anyway. Could care less about your morale fiber...just wants another body to throw at the darkspawn. So I sympathize with Loghain in a lot of ways. The king was a mislead glory seeker, and thought that winning a few battles would be enough. He even said he didn’t think it was a true blight, which is insane, since darkspawn don’t show up unless there is one. He was so deluded.

[@KGBx988]

@FierceShredderOfHell He actually kept telling this to Cailan over and over. The King wouldn't listen even when Duncan suggested to wait for reinforcements.

[@astucity]

Wynne is such a queen handing Loghain's ass to him.

[@Li_Tobler]

Nah... Not really

[@KalElSupermanKrypton]

Perhaps, but I can be more useful to you alive, wouldn't you say?

[@GilCAnjos]

Loghain was right. The battle was lost, and Cailan was dumb for going forth. All that Loghain did wrong was crossing the Warden's path

[@elisabetta611]

I am sorry, but I am done discussing the topics of warfare and tactics with people who let their emotions override their reason. The decision at Ostagar was tactically sound. End of story. Tragic? Sure. Necessary? Yes.

[@thelaw6267]

Cailan was a traitor to Ferelden. Loghain did nothing wrong.

[@elisabetta611]

@Linxer22 Have you even READ "The Stolen Throne"? Doesn't look like it. And during an already lost battle there is no TIME to risk further lives for the sake of "honor".

[@masterblaster3508]

i dont let him live. regardless of how he logical his action was to withdraw to save his troops he left his king die. to let your best friends son die. It is likely the king did cheat on anota BUT i doubt it he took his anger out on the wardens and left your warden to die. for people see it as a stab in the back yo the country you swore to protect. this would be like saying if the allies you gathered decided not to help you out. you would be pissed yet it was for their best interest of their people right? thus i see him dying at your hands fitting for the warden is the ideal hero this world needs right now. he had his glory but held onto his hate. true the cousland warden can seek vengance upon howl yet logain is too stuck in the past.

[@Pav94an]

+Dragon King except it was that or everyone loses. It was risky bringing the Orlesians into Fereldan, but necessary. Besides Cailan only asked for Orlesian Wardens, not chevaliers. Wardens aren't political so there was absolutely no reason for Loghain to refuse them. Loghain was the one at fault here - i agree, he deserves death every time.

[@Pav94an]

+Dragon King wtf are you talking about!!! The Grey Wardens committed no such atrocities - i have already told you. It was the Orlesian Grey Wardens Cailan had summoned, not Orlseian soldiers. Orlesian Grey Wardens are simply Grey Wardens stationed in Orlay, they had nothing to do with political tensions. Also are you fucking stupid "One mistake" led to the death of thousands of men and women both at Ostogar and then Lothering amongst other places. It also lead to the death of almost all the Fereldan Grey Wardens and his King!!!!!! "One mistake" it was a costly fucking mistake you don't deserve chances after that. Not to mention Loghain never admitted it was a mistake, he still believed he was right.

[@Pav94an]

+Dragon King Are you seriously this dense or are you trolling. For the 3rd fucking time Grey Wardens are NOT political - READ my damn comments before you reply. I already told you there are Orlesian Wardens but they have nothing to do with what the rest of Orlay has done. Yes Cailan knew it was futile he even laid it out straight to Loghain - Why the fuck do you think he asked for Orlesian Grey Wardens!! But he was King - he had to either let the darkspawn massacre his people or try to slow them down. If Loghain had gone with Cailans plan - they would have won at Ostogar with the extra Grey Warden reinforcements from Orlay. Don't pretend Orlay wouldn't have helped - play inquisition ffs Orlay and Fereldan team up fine in that game which is only 10 years after this. Then there is the fact that after this betrayal, Loghain hires a blood mage to Assassinate Arl Eamon - plunging RedCliffe into chaos. And starts a civil war. Whichever way you look at it, Loghain was wrong and deserves death.

[@Pav94an]

+Pav94an He then ignores Howes crimes - actually promotes the fucker, and starts selling slaves to Tevinter - how the fuck can u defend this guy.

[@Pav94an]

+Pav94an and non of that explains why he would frame the wardens and name them traitors

[@Kratos8462]

@BitsOfLint if you haven't read the stolen throne you can't truly understand Loghain's hatred of Orlais and his love for Ferelden. He saw his mom raped by orleasian chevaliers and had to give up the woman he loved for his country

[@kinkarcana1293]

I cant believe how much Veilguard shit on Loghains character and motivations. Trash.

[@elisabetta611]

@Svartalfgeist Yup. David Gaider confirmed that Cailan would have married the Empress of Orlais. Thus betraying everything King Maric & Loghain fought for during the occupation.

[@RandomDuude]

This video is supposed to make me hate Loghain, but here I am wanting nothing more than watch Wynne burn at the stake 😂

[@brahmantyoihsan5938]

Same. I hated Wynne because she couldn't resist preaching others.

[@elisabetta611]

@madax132 He actually confirms what I have said. And Anora did care for Cailan. A lot. She herself and others tell you how much "Cailan having his women" hurt her. A king who ditches a loyal, competent wife who isn't even thirty yet is a bastard, yep. Especially when it's to marry the Empress of Orlais who is much older than he is. Ever heard of Henry VIII? People still condemn him for setting aside Katharine of Aragon. (Who was over 40 and where the heir argument actually made sense)

[@elisabetta611]

Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre, as confirmed by DAO's lead writer. End of story.

[@elisabetta611]

@Manchevo Neither HE nor your Warden KNEW just WHY the Wardens are necessary to end the Blight for good until Riordan tells you AFTER the Landsmeet. So are you blaming him for not knowing something your character doesn't know either? Besides, the Wardens were guilty of committing treason TWICE in the past. A rather shady bunch.

[@guilhermeroyama8842]

People hate Loghain because they didn't see the Orlesians the way he did. He may have done horrible things,but only because of his goal to see Ferelden free. He is nothing but a legend and a badass! P.S. dear God,that Warden is ugly as f#ck!

[@IzzyLovesRock]

I dont usually let him sacrifice himself on the end. Sometimes I do, depending on how I RP the character abd if I spared him. Personally, I believe Loghain should find redemption on life not in death.

[@IzzyLovesRock]

+Robert Paulson in* and*

[@willl676]

Considering what we've seen in Inquisition, the Orlesians's cutthroat politics and retarded obsession with "The Game" is beyond retarded. I almost wish there was a *let the Qunari invade Orlais* button.

[@andrewvincent7299]

I'm not so sure. He led the a bloody rebellion with Maric against the tyrannical Orlesian empire and saw first hand how they abused Ferelden. Even though Orlais is ruled by a different person than the one during the occupation, he was right to fear that the Orlesians would not just up and leave if they let them within Ferelden. I'm sure he knew people like Grand Duke Gaspard were around feeling like Orlais should reclaim what they felt was a lost province.

[@MrItsaplane]

He empowered Arl Rendon Howe, forced a civil war on people who just wanted answers, tried to kill all Grey Wardens despite more than likely hearing stories of them (and historical records) stopping every...single....blight....ever.

[@elisabetta611]

@madax132 For the love of God, you asked for a character with a few lines who has more depth than Cailan. Danyla does. Heck, even Varathorn does. The Bannorn initiate (as you call it) the civil war. They have caused Maric trouble, fought over effin' TREES....David Gaider confirmed that Cailan not only cheated on his wife but, like Henry VIII, planned to ditch her to marry Celene. Anora herself tells you that "Cailan had his women". I have studied history...occupations are HORRIFIC.

[@probablyorthonas6495]

Loghain betrayed his king and left him to die on the battlefield. You saw how big his part of the army was. He could have ended the blight then and there at Ostagar.

[@Sanguiluna]

SaarebasTheQunari There were more Grey Wardens before Ostagar than there were after Loghain betrayed Cailan and began his Reign of Fail.

[@TheSeth256]

SaarebasTheQunari Ummm,no?Plan was to focus darkspawn's army attention on Cailan's forces while Loghain attacks from flank with second half of army,it would devastate darkspawn there.even though Grey Wardens would have to kill archdemon later anyway to end the plague.

[@geoffreychance9770]

SaarebasTheQunari if Loghain had joined the fight at Ostagar it wouldve forced the Archedemon to show itself there, and likely been killed, or delayed its appearance enough to allow the Grey Wardens much more preparation, and possibly a chance to gather its allies.

[@markjermyn1804]

are u blind? vince? the guy said before he died says even if loghain supports king cailan there wern't be a victory at ostagar loghain knew the battle has lost and he says its impossible to save cailan from that oghre even duncan wernt be saved in time if cailan and loghain and duncan knew they were defeated they could have bringed the orlesian forces after all or could retreat to denerim and loghain was no traitor he was trying to retreat to denerim and try not to get blamed by the surviving grey wardens so he decided to make them outlaws and yet u all still argue me and the others about it..

[@catrionapritchard4679]

...he really couldn't. The plan was to lure the whole army onto the field, surround them, and cut them down once they were penned in. The delay of the signal fire didn't really help matters, but by the time it went up, darkspawn were still pouring onto the field - the army was much bigger than they thought it was, their original strategy having been aimed at dealing with a much smaller force, along the lines of those they'd fought in earlier battles. Ostagar was lost before it was ever fought, due to bad intelligence and the threat being far greater than anyone thought. Loghain's aid would only have turned a disaster into a worse one, as even more of the army was slaughtered on the field. Cailan's decision-making only turned what would have been a bloody and terrifying, but manageable, defeat into a complete disaster by getting himself killed on the front lines and throwing his kingdom into crisis. Not that any of this excuses what Loghain got up to *after* Ostagar.

[@KalElSupermanKrypton]

How is my suffering going to change anything? Is it not better if you allow me to do something right before I die?