Modern Olympic Fencing Swords VS Antique Fencing Swords

[@MichaelJohnson-qd7cq]

I was into fencing back in the day when I was in college. I learned the various moves and routines used when fencing saber and thought they were overly stylized. Then sometime later a friend loaned me a Civil War cavalry saber to play with. All of a sudden those overly stylized moves made a lot more sense given a blade that was designed, balanced and weighted to be used that way. It almost felt like the blade wanted to go to some of the standard parry positions. It was a neat and eye opening experience.

[@brendanmontague2143]

To "some degree" sword fighting is essentially sword fighting.

[@justinsadler5695]

@@brendanmontague2143 fencing isn't true swordsmanship. As discussed in another video.

[@brendanmontague2143]

@@justinsadler5695 some degree, the weapon, and rules are a small matter. English and ASL are very different, but both of them are indeed languages.

[@brendanmontague2143]

The point is everything evolves from something.

[@TheGreatCigma]

Calling a foil a rapier is like calling a chisel a screwdriver.

[@telekevontoloko8247]

You can use a chisel as a screwdriver when your boss is not looking

[@phileas007]

@@telekevontoloko8247 I always use screwdrivers as chisels though.

[@morriganmhor5078]

Yes! English terminology is junkyard. What does this "modern" sabre have in common with kilidj, shamshir or perhaps British Pattern 1796? Real sabres of old had curved blade + curved hilt. British Pattern 1912 had straight blade + curved hilt, so it is not a sabre nor sword (straight blade + straight hilt) but palas!

[@DANGVINH17]

Actually, a screwdriver is a small chisel

[@danilonascimento9866]

Well... A screwdriver is just a little chisel you use to drive screws

[@cinbellextratempus8153]

Could you do a video on dragoons and other mounted infantry please?

[@charles2703]

Kinda out of his purview, isn’t it?

[@ptealixpaint]

@@charles2703 not really

[@romanista77]

There may be a change coming to modern sabre fencing. The Russians are pushing to add motion sensors again. They would make sure that a cut has enough power in it. These were a huge failure in the 1990's when motion sensor technologies wasn't as good. They were unreliable and most point hits wouldn't register hits.

[@alexandercox3631]

I think that's the right direction of travel to be honest, more tech, not less. I've seen AI camera systems that can track the motion of a sabre point, so the equipment doesn't need to be on the fencer. The irony would be that if they can get the technology to work right, it might end up with sports fencing being more accurate to a real sword fight than HEMA!

[@OldMadHatter]

I would welcome that advancement!

[@bebakerus]

I hated the sensors. Mostly because they didn't work. If they can get them working I'd be all for it. What drove me away from sabre fencing (besides change in life situation) was the whipping which I felt misrepresented the spirit of the weapon.

[@Anathmatician]

I would be interested in seeing the sensor return, or the use of camera tracking. I fenced sabre in the 90s with the old style sensors, and while it is true that there were issues with reliability, when you look at to some of the other issues with refereeing and awarding of hits at the time (such as deliberately hitting hard with the flat to get the blade to bend around the parry and hit the target) I don’t think sensor was the biggest issue or that the withdrawal of the sensor improved matters. Maybe technology wasn’t up to it at the time, but I think a better method of registering the hit is a better answer than taking the sensor away.

[@deadstump4970]

@@bebakerus I gave up on foil for the same reason. The right of way situation in modern fencing is out of control. It is actively diminishing its intended purpose of having to "deal with" a threat when you can have right of way while having your weapon out of line with your opponent and hold that right of way more or less indefinitely. If the only way to deal with an "attack" is to bait it out... then it wasn't an attack. At least epee doesn't make any excuses as to why the rules are what they are.

[@michaelwaggoner1604]

Matt, I would love to see more videos about how modern fencing came to be and the history of its weapons and rules.

[@mikesummers-smith4091]

A well-directed slash by a sport sabre can be sodding painful even through canvas trousers - especially if your opponent insincerely explains that he was trying to hit your target not your arse.

[@inscrutablemungus4143]

Well, as someone who's fenced foil for a while now, I think increasing the weight of the saber (or even changing the weight distribution) might pose a safety hazard. Modern Saber's way of calling ROW essentially prioritizes explosive attacks and it's usually the case that you have fencers charging at each other with a lot of momentum behind their attacks. A heavier blade might lead to injury unless it is coordinated properly with the standards of the protective gear in the sport. I don't personally fence saber, so I could be wrong. But I used to own an unusually stiff foil and would consistently get into situations in tournaments where my opponents would end up hurt -- even if all I did was land a direct attack with a lunge. That blade was still significantly bendier and lighter than an Epee, but because ROW encourages attacks, there's just a lot more momentum behind any aggressive action. Ultimately fencing is a sport -- one that kids routinely participate in -- so the FIE has to prioritize safety over realism.

[@itsapittie]

Interesting video! I'd never given it much thought but I just sort of assumed that there were a lot of transferrable skills between olympic and HEMA fencing. It's good to see an expert confirm that I wasn't wrong. Certainly, in the two sports I've practiced extensively (shooting and horseback riding) properly-executed training and practice yields significant improvement across the board regardless of which particular aspect of the sport you practice. That's probably true of almost any sport.

[@30Salmao]

I was talking about this topic all day long. Then Matt post thiis video, I can't belive this level of coincidence. There is something happening between Brazil and England that I didn't figured out yet. Love it

[@creme8338]

interesting stuff. always dug gymnasium sabers. i'd love a video on german student fencing and the 'schläger' swords they use. pretty niche, but interesting i reckon

[@Martial-man]

I would absolutely love to see a mensur schläger review. I’m very much interested as to how mensur works and where I can find the swords for it

[@sojjjer]

I’ve been waiting for a video on this for a while, classical fencing is so cool

[@wackyiowa724]

I used to call them rapiers, never understood why. I stopped calling them rapiers when I understood rapier can cut. Which blew me away when I heard that rapiers have a sharp blade. Because I always thought the small sword was just a rapier.

[@alejandroochoa559]

Wait, so epees and foils ARE rapiers right?

[@MrPanos2000]

Not all rapiers had an edge. Some antiques have square blades, but yes, most rapiers have edges. Some smallswords also do mind you. Their differences are far more than merely whether or not they have an edge

[@inthedenoftigers5702]

Just to keep HEMA community in the loop: FIE has put forward a competition to improve electronic scoring in sabre fencing so that light touches are more limited: fie.org/articles/909 While its early days yet, depending on the model that comes out, Olympic Sabre fencing may (possibly...) change nature yet again, in an attempt to somewhat get back to the capteur socket using modern accelerometer technology without having the issues associated with the temperamental widget of the 1980's so that a good cut rather than a mere touch of the blade against the target can be distinguished. I doubt that it will slow down Olympic sabre as its really its own thing now, but you might start seeing again classical techniques that disappeared for a while such as mulinellos - depending obviously on which system wins the competition.

[@sojjjer]

Am I the only one who thinks it’s weird that there is more, high quality content for historical and classical fencing than modern fencing? Hell there’s more content for medievalism in general and it’s all high quality stuff

[@matthewpham9525]

It wouldn’t be profitable compared to in-person operations. Why bother making videos if you can teach a real class? It teaches more effectively, makes more money, and prevents trade secrets from being more widespread than you would like.

[@sojjjer]

@@matthewpham9525 so, modern fencing is too big to branch out, huh

[@alexandercox3631]

It depends, If you follow the FIE there is a lot of tournaments online, and a number of clubs/coaches make training videos, plus documentaries on particular fencers. You just need to look for that kind of content.

[@louisvictor3473]

A bit less impressive when you consider martial arts as a whole. HEMA has more grassroots so far, while other sports that are centuries old are far more institutionalised. HEMA people have reasons to try to reach out, people with often international institutions at their backs and to network with have a bit less interest. You also have the history (and an international broad version of it)/nerd buff element for HEMA people in general (because HEMA is in part also historical reconstruction, of a niche type that even professional historians don't get too deep all that often, something that naturally attracts more people with a nerdy side), which other martial arts don't always have (since they're so well establish there is no reconstructive element, and they often just focus on their on history which is already plenty long by today ).

[@matthewpham9525]

Sojjer Basically yeah. It’s so big that there is little incentive for anything online. This includes finding videos online. People that want to learn how to learn how to sword fight want to learn how to fight with big, cool weapons. Given that sport fencing weapons look kinda lame, people are rarely interested.

[@SargeNV]

Suddenly realised that I was unintentionally trying to block hits and riposte at 9:40 and even rolled a half step back in my char behind PC.

[@a.s.j.g6229]

Hi, great video. That is an interesting comparison that I have never seen explained before. First.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hi, first one!

[@HobieH3]

Some of the finest sword geekage I've ever witnessed. Still going on about it 6 & 7 years later...

[@Anathmatician]

The stuff about modern Olympic fencing and its relation to early styles is really interesting!

[@Mike_AR_15]

Greetings from California, good video very informative

[@brittakriep2938]

Some notes from a german viewer with no martial arts knowledge. In german language rapier, smallsword, foil , sport epee, duelling epee is mostly called ,Degen'. But in medival german , Degen' could also mean , brave man', perhaps the english , thegn' is the brother of the medieval german , Degen'. ( About 30 years ago an elderly coworker used the word , degenmäßig' when he told an incident , in which a man was surprisingly brave) . I am no academic person , so i do not know ,German Academic Fencing', but it seems that the ,Schläger' this students use, are a partly sharpened version oft this ,Gymnasium sabers'.

[@ivanharlokin]

Very interesting, thanks. In archaic English a "blade" was an informal term for a brave young man.

[@hrotha]

"Degen" as in "nobleman" (=thegn) and as in "sword" are thought to be unrelated. The latter seems to be somehow related to English "dagger" and ultimately to Italian or Occitan "daga"

[@thebobbytytesvarrietyhour4168]

Do you think this is paralleled in HEMA? I feel like whenever I see a high level longsword tournament, it seems like people are moving their feders much faster than you could move a replica longsword. Thoughts?

[@rogerlafrance6355]

Before WW2 fencing along with horsemanship, shooting and such were military sports which were part of military combat training, though mostly for the officer corps and often in uniform. George Patton is a good example. Now days there is no need to be able to actualy kill with a saber, much less from horseback and after you have emptied your pistols.

[@CommanderJoir]

i call an epee a rapier by mistake because in my language rapier and epee is called the same

[@krumst]

Its similar in Bulgarian. Foil - rapier, epee or real rapier - shpaga. Very misleading.

[@Tommiart]

Great video Matt!

[@krumst]

Hah , I immediately recognized the Danielli's rapier. I was lusting about it but decided its not too heavy for me (1240 grams if remember correctly). So I got Windlass Christus imperat -1360 grams, POB a inch and half above the guard (shell) and heavy tip. Exellent weapon , fits like dream in my hand . It can parry a long sword w/o any concerns. Btw. I would not try any cuts with heavy rapier in real fight. Too much risk, very little to gain.

[@lilithshopping7904]

Thanks for sharing insight into modern rapiers ; )

[@jiaweizhang4166]

Forgot where I read this, so please feel free to take my words with a grain of salt. Épée techniques at its birth seem to have backtracked into older rapier treatises, and the design of enlarged bell guard as well as longer blade (compared to smallswords of course) also appear to take inspirations from rapiers. Of course an épée is not a rapier I wouldn't argue against that.

[@kaseko6549]

épée just means sword in french

[@eoagr1780]

Kaseko I always wonder why English speaking fencer retained the French word for sword in fencing, in Spanish we translated into the equivalent of sword (espada). I wonder if that happened in other languages and how many retain the French name.

[@hubert_c]

@@eoagr1780 This style of sword (and fencing) comes from France, and I suppose it was fashionable, like those who use english words instead of perfectly serviceable french ones today.

[@kaseko6549]

@@eoagr1780 pretty funny for the English use of the German word "Messer", which just means Knife

[@ronytheronin7439]

I always wonder if « small swords » are a bad translation of « épée de cour ».

[@louisvictor3473]

@@eoagr1780 Ever since the Normans visited the islands, the higher classes of Britain had a thing for using French (first because they were French, later because the prestige still lingered) up to at least a little bit into early 19th century when Britain becomes more prominent than France, after it it takes get taken down a notch or three. My theory is that by the time sport fencing came along, the higher classes did it for sport and probable learning from /emulating the French so they didn't bother changing the name from the French which they were rather familiar with, and it stuck in the sport version. Similar to the origin of dual terminology for animals and their meats as food, like calf/veal, cow/beef, chicken/poultry, and deer/venison, while many other languages just use 's meat/meat of instead.

[@scottmacgregor3444]

It always saddens me to see the elitism where you have so many looking down on anyone who does something different than you do. "Oh he's a sport fencer. Not real fencing, just electric tag." "Oh he's a Meyerist. Fool should study Fiore, that's REAL sword fighting." "Oh he does kendo. Try RREEEEAL sword fighting ya weeb." "Oh they fence using weighted afterblow?" People need to get their heads out of their donkeys and realize that we're all sword nerds, and that's awesome.

[@viridisxiv766]

oh, you dont actually kill your opponant? youre a casual!

[@mallardtheduck406]

It's about proper context!

[@matthewpham9525]

Ironically, some of this can be attributed to Matt Easton...

[@velazquezarmouries]

Well to be honest modern fencing is electric coat hanger tag

[@justinsadler5695]

You aren't looking at it from the perspective of the traditionalist. To us, fencing and kendo is little more than a bastardization of an art that is superseding the true essence of its predecessor by sheer popularity. Sports are a dime a dozen. You can count on one hand how many people still know the art of war, which is what the other is a mere parody of. Without the traditionalist, the actual purpose becomes lost in translation, and with that, thousands of years of dedication, practice, refinement and ingenuity of countless people who died to perfect it go down the drain because people decided that scoring points were more important that defeating an opponent whilst avoiding injury to oneself. This is actually EXACTLY why the Kendo association refuses to associate itself with modern olympics. You arent a sword nerd, you are a sport nerd.

[@Alicatt1]

Leon Paul such a nice name, ;-) Personally I used a Solingen blade with a Leon Paul guard and hilt.

[@albertbresca8904]

leon paul are still trading... they mostly sell olympic fencing gear... some HEMA....

[@jawisher]

I never thought of an epee as a rapier, but I did think it was pretty close to an early 19th century court sword. Is that wrong?

[@thebruce9042]

Wonderful! I love this kind of stuff. It would be interesting to see how that modern fencing saber fared against, say, a watermelon?

[@Tupinamba77]

As always, a great video! I really don't get the dislikes (as few as they are).

[@dramreen4890]

What's the procedure for selling my antique sword???????

[@The_PotionSeller]

Those sabers look eerily similar to the 1913 patton cavalry sword.

[@johnhanley9946]

I'd be interested in seeing a video showing the differences between epee de combat and smallsword, Ive never heard of that before.

[@gordonlove144]

There is no difference in the French - the term covers a long period during which the weapons gradually evolve. If you choose two epées de combat from periods far enough apart, they do look different. Just as you can do with any smallswords from time periods far enough apart.

[@gordonlove144]

"Epée de combat" translates into English as either "smallsword" or "epée". The epée is not a practice weapon - they were originally bought in pairs. You would sharpen one and foil the other.

[@SuburbanFox]

Do you have an Alfred Hutton sabre? We used to train with those, I think they were training sabres too.

[@soupordave]

Matt, the late 19th Century practice sabers seem to be a lot lighter weight than their actual military counterparts. Were these used to train soldiers/"serious" swordsmen or just for civilian/sport fencing? I ask because in many fantasy and historical novels I've everyone seems to practice with heavier-weighted swords to build strength and endurance; did this happen or is it just another myth perpetrated by fiction?

[@scholagladiatoria]

The 800g examples are about the same weight as the real swords.

[@joeplaice6177]

There was quite a bit of debate between heavy, light, and standard weighted practice swords. Some fencing masters would argue that practicing with a heavy sword will make you quicker with your sharp one. Some would say that a light trainer allows you to practice longer, and will be better for developing proper form. Still other masters were of the "fight how you train" mindset.

[@erykczajkowski8226]

@@joeplaice6177 From logical perspective these do not exclude each other. If you want to focus on technique, you should use light one, when you're ready change to heavy to build up strength and endurance.

[@gordonlove144]

Gymmnasium sabres were first introduced to the UK at the first gymnasium - created for the British Army. Sabre fencing only became a civilian pursuit in the UK in the early 20th century

[@VisionsOfSpy]

I also feel the mass difference also has something to do with safety as well. I mean, even with modern sabres you can get some pretty damn nasty injuries (one dude at my club had his thumb... Or was it his wrist? Idk, anyway, it got absolutely annihilated when he got hit and he was put completely out of action for a month and had to go for physical therapy), now imagine if you doubled the blade mass. Now, I don't have an issue with increasing the mass but it has to be done in a reasonable manner because we need to remember to take into account that sport fencing is indeed a sport, and it needs to be treated as such, its not a judicial duel or anything of the sort. Which is why, for example, Kendo developed the way it did, the shinai and even more so, the bokken, are deadly weapons, those things can kill you, so things had to be changed for safety purposes like the kit and the rules (the techniques too to some degree), same thing with Olympic fencing. If you get hit full force with a military sabre on the head, at best you're sitting with a concussion (yes, possibly even through your fencing mask), at worst, brain hemorrhaging or dead on the ground due to blunt force trauma (not at all likely if you're wearing head protection but if you're unarmoured, you're screwed).

[@gordonlove144]

I think you are talking about "moment of inertia" :-)

[@cargo71]

I never studied fencing, but I always loved swordfights in movies, and of course I love the duel sabres, from Disney´s Zorro, The Scarlet Pimernel, and some others. Which is the equivalent of the duel sabre in real combat? Thanks.

[@frankharr9466]

1,300 g= 45.9 oz. 1,250 g= 44.1 oz. 300 g= 10.6 oz. 380 g= 13.4 oz. 400 g= 14.1 oz. 500 g= 17.6 oz. 600 g= 21.2 oz. To sum up, it ain't a rapier!

[@bobmilaplace3816]

Still a lightsaber used like a olympic saber would be interesting, since its all edge. So if epee came from epee du combat, foil came from smallsword, where did Olympic Saber come from? It seems to be lighter than even the lightest sabers I've seen.

[@JorgeRodriguez-zc7fc]

Modern Saber came from Italian sabers

[@gordonlove144]

Modern sabre came from military gymnasium sabre, in large part via the British Army gymnasium, although the first Olympic rules adopted were, iirc written by the Swedish national fencing association

[@Rosetheromani]

I loved seeing the Leon Paul sword, which opens up the great debate is Leon Paul blades better than Wilkinson Sword blades.

[@fernandoromero9906]

Would it be possible a new modality in sport fencing, a mix of sabre and epee, like rules of epee with sabre slash attacks? Has someone tried a fourth modality or new rules in the sport fencing?

[@matthewpham9525]

Definitely possible, it’d just have to go through a committee. Wireless saber is a thing now, and wireless epee is attempting to be a thing

[@DctrBread]

dunno if its obvious to all hema people, but i would say fighting is much improved with heavier swords. A 300g~ sword is much harder to react to for sure, even if its faster to maneuver into a parry.

[@worshipedwarrior441]

I have a question about sabers. I was told about sharpening the false edge of a saber. Is that a good or bad idea?

[@justin2166]

Why were dueling weapons (always? usually) one handed? Were there any notable exceptions?

[@lio88jian]

"English Master of Defence OR, The Gentleman’s Al-a-mode Accomplish, CONTAINING The true Art of Single-Rapier or Small-Sword..." By Zachary Wylde. Seems like period sources used smallsword and rapier interchangeably.

[@McBlazington]

Didn't expect you to start the video off with a modern electric rapier.

[@julianjames2899]

i started with Olympic fencing {none competitive). Mind you I was also reading Alfred Hutton and Guy Windsor, so I did what i could to take the cheese out and not Sabre whip.

[@weaselrampant]

I study italian saber, and we are taught to power cuts with the elbow, not the wrist, even when using sport sabers. You can really mess up your forearm muscles if you try to power heavier sabers with your wrist. Also, using the elbow is faster because the size and strength of the muscles involved.

[@kyleheins]

Generally, you are correct. However some systems have saber cuts coming purely from the wrist using blade weight and momentum instead of pure muscle strength. They are less damaging than elbow cuts but are slightly less projected as well.

[@weaselrampant]

@@kyleheins of course, 90% of Italian saber is in the legs. If you think a moulinet hits hard, try a moulinet with a lunge.

[@CrysResan]

@@weaselrampant Moulinet are like half or quarter spins right? How do you take that movement and focus it into a lunge rather than a slash?

[@kyleheins]

@@weaselrampant I have done so, and I've done wrist, arm and shoulder moulinets so I am quite familiar with the power potential of each, a full lunge shoulder moulinet is easy to predict, but the power in it is incredible...

[@kyleheins]

@@CrysResan a lunge is a leg movement where you use your rearmost leg to drive your body forward landing on your forward foot at the end as the cut or thrust is contacting the target. A thrust is where you drive the point of something, lunge or not, into a target while a cut (including slash) is where you swing the edge of a blade into a target. The lunge, when paired correctly with a cut, adds momentum and weight making it cut deeper into the target and increasig the chance that a good cut will pass full through the target.

[@i4C4U]

Can you please do a review of the movie Captain Alatriste?

[@mallardtheduck406]

That was a great movie, Inigo's revenge scene was a brutal rapier battle... It felt like how a real battle went down.

[@bebakerus]

I fenced sabre in college (many moons ago...) and I think I like the old style better...

[@denysbeecher5629]

Knight Style, fine. Refereeing was terrible though. Electric scoring brought with it some significant drawbacks but it made things a lot fairer

[@bebakerus]

@@denysbeecher5629 My first year was without the electronic scoring system. We were not well funded and didn't afford them until my second year. Then things got so fast that, at the collegiate level, it felt more like jousting than fencing. (Keep in mind I've been away from the sport for a couple decades now and I don't know what it has done since.) I played with epee a little after school on my own but by then other things had taken priority such as wife and children.

[@russellalexanderyim8623]

Why are fencing Sabres not curved?

[@bananaoligarchy8754]

Does anyone know what the sword hanging vertically below the left shield is? I've been wondering for a while now.

[@mikefule]

Looks like some sort of arming sword: 1 handed mediaeval sword. If you need to know the exact make and model, you may have to ask Matt himself. A quick look at Wikipedia shows it looks remarkably like the sword of St Maurice in terms of blade, guard, grip and pommel shapes. I don't know if it's a replica of that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightly_sword

[@Lyphatma]

If the Modern Pentathlon is meant to be the skills required for a young late Victorian/Edwardian officer, especially with a view to escaping from captivity, then is it an error to use the epee rather than the sabre?

[@mathodge4755]

I lose so many points as i refuse to do flat hits, I always turn for a true cut.

[@kevinreardon2558]

I like sabers with sable. So fashionable.

[@mallardtheduck406]

I had a pair of fencing foils and fencing sabers... I never owned an epee.

[@silentfox139]

What kind of sword did zorro use or better yet what kind of sword would have used from those zorro movies and tv cereals

[@cargo71]

I think Bandera´s sword is a smallsword, and Guy Williams´s was a fencing sabre. I still want to know if those swords were good for battle of swordfighting...

[@kiltymacbagpipe]

Modern fencing demonstrates how ludicrous, though entertaining, Star Wars light sabre fights are. A weapon with no weight and will cut with energy as opposed to velocity would be used more like a foil than a broadsword. It would make for a lame movie fight though.

[@camilstoenescu]

Consequently most light sabres fights in the Star Wars universe would end in a matter of seconds. No prolonged duels.

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

Shad made a great video a while ago about that called "Jedi fight with their lightsabers WRONG: Star Wars"

[@gregorstamejcic2355]

@@camilstoenescu i'm not certain of this... i mean, i suppose the wound would be clean and cauterised, due to assumed heat of the lightsaber. so duels would be messy, crippling and painful, but not quite as lethal as smallsword duels were, due to lack of sepsis and blood loss.

[@matthewpham9525]

Lightsaber blades apparently aren’t weightless despite the name. Since they’re powered by the Force, how heavy it feels depends on how attuned to the force you are. In other words, the plot.

[@Gilbrae]

The Stick fighting (canne de combat or others) is indeed the most similar with lightsaber fighting despite the fact that the weapons used in the various existing styles are way lighter than lightsaber and their weight distribution is the absolute opposite. The Rapier (one with the lightest blade) or the "estoc" are in fact the best candidates in terms of weight and weight distribution. So the ideal training for lightsaber fighting is Stick-fighting with a late period rapier (for the form II "makashi") or a "estoc" sword (for two handed forms) ! QED !! Of course the best is to hold a 15000$ FX-sabers replica ! The perfect option would be a 28cm /1kg metal bar (with a long pommel lightly heavier than the rest of the bar) with a light material stick (synthetic blade maybe) at one end.

[@Anathmatician]

There has been a change to sabre guards since the Olympic sabre you have there. Guards have got to be completely smooth on the outside now for competition. Don’t think there are many of the old style you have any more.

[@denysbeecher5629]

Anathmatician Modern sabers also usually don’t have a fuller along the spine like the early 20th century’s do

[@MadawcSin]

Was/is there a practice weapon for foil prior to HEMA?

[@matthewpham9525]

Foil is the practice weapon for generic smallswords, so the HEMA equivalent is the feder for longswords.

[@gordonlove144]

'Foil' originally meant any sword which had been prepared for use as a practice weapon, for example by melting a blob of lead over the point. Gradually it comes to refer to s specific class of weapons used for fencing practice. Eventually the practices of fencing training mutate so far away from practical use, that the people feel they need to start practicing with actual smallswords (epées de combat) to get properly prepared for possible first-blood duelling. A few decades later, the competition rules become formalised, which involves defining the acceptable limits of the physical properties of the "foil" and the "epée".

[@scottbauer5674]

What is most numerous in history: Medieval/Renaissance actual swords, sport/practice swords, modern replicas or toy lightsabers?

[@louisvictor3473]

Sport/practice swords. Those have existed all over the world and before Medieval times, during said times, continue to be made today (but now for an even larger population), and will continue to be made and used after disney ruins the SW brand into oblivion. Everything else has no chance to stand up to it.

[@nobleactual7616]

Imagine the aggressive foot work of first hit fencing combined with polish sabers

[@madmax8160]

we can talk a lot about the differences but: first, Olympic fencing has a preparation, a completeness that the hema doesn't have. second, with "big" swords, the one who touches the most wins, and not the one who kills the other first.

[@FlyingAxblade_D20]

first cheat we learned in sabre was to not flinch when a wrist hit was scored on us =)

[@denysbeecher5629]

Which came first, the light practice saber or the light combat sabers like the 1908 or the Patton saber? Interesting to see the lack of set in the hilt of the Leon Paul

[@tl8211]

The Patton saber and the 1908 aren't light at all. They're over 1 kg, normal range for cavalry sabers.

[@scholagladiatoria]

As said, the 1908 and Patton are heavy! They are cavalry thrusting bars with giant hilts.

[@denysbeecher5629]

scholagladiatoria I saw in your written article on gymnasium sabers that some seem to come near to the kilo range. I was curious if you saw the practice designs of straight saber blades that seem most useful for point work as influencing the development of similar blades meant for combat, vice versa, or did they arise independently?

[@ktoth29]

So basically modern fencing is just radio antennae tag.

[@vincentliu809]

no. fencing isn't just about the sword itself. also flexibility is a matter of safety.

[@mallardtheduck406]

I made a fencing foil out of a truck Antenna and an old reflector dish out of an old ambulance light. Some liquid weld and black electrical tape, it looked great for 1987... You use what you can find.

[@erykczajkowski8226]

@@vincentliu809 How about people were not participating in activities of which risk they are not comfortable with instead of degenerating that activities in the name of (excessive) safety? (not saying to ignore safety completely) And if you really must how about you wear aburd, over the top armour instead of using absurdly impotent weapon?

[@danilonascimento9866]

@@vincentliu809 Why not focus more in better protection? I understand the reasons to have some flexibility, but the sport just degenerated in a whipping tag

[@kevinsullivan3448]

Only Simps worry about safety when using dueling weapons.

[@gordonlove144]

My modern Olympic-rules fencing sabre has to be assembled carefully, or it exceeds the weight limit for MOR sabres. (500g)

[@samsignorelli]

Not really...the weight difference between the parts isn't really much. I sell the gear for a living, and the part with the biggest weight difference is the grip....and no one weighs the blade except MAYBE at an FIE even with full weapons control. I worked a modern pentathlon world cup in 2009 as part of the armory crew, and while I DID run the weapons through the gabrit to check for things like length, guard width, blade flexibility, etc, we did NOT check the weight of the epees.

[@aggroalex5470]

In modern fencing there are winners and losers. In a sword fight there are only survivors. Serious question. If you had an injured yet walkable leg would that change your choice of sword?

[@Sifuben]

We just going to ignore the fact that several Anglo-Irish sources from the 18th century refer to the smallsword as rapier whereas most 16th and 17th century sources call rapiers "swords"?

[@WolfKenneth]

For me I started with Polish XVIITH century sabre to move to german longsword all those straight sabres feel so wrong (in Polish it would be called pallash - pałasz and wouldn't be even counted as sabre - szabla)

[@peterjaimez1619]

An Olympic saber uses a S2000 blade it will hit you with less force than the old pre electric sabers. Essentially the lighter blades are an additional mean of protecting the player against hurts. Cheers

[@mallardtheduck406]

A $2,000 blade? What's it made of, Titanium??

[@ivanharlokin]

Yes, but is that the main motivation behind the increasingly lightweight blades? Since scoring is simply a matter of making contact (however slight) the quicker the blade the more of an advantage the user has. You therefore encourage fencers to use the lightest possible blade.

[@samsignorelli]

@@mallardtheduck406 S2000, not $2000...S for sabre, 2000 for the year the blades were stiffened to cut down on whiopver hits.

[@nathanbrown8680]

Why are smallsword simulators called foils rather than fencing smallswords? The Epee d'combat simulator is called the epee and the sabre simulator is called the fencing sabre or gymnasium sabre.

[@mikefule]

"Foil" means to prevent, curtail, stop, frustrate, prevent,(etc.) as in foiling someone's dastardly plan, or the the police foiling a robbery. Foiling is blunting the tip of a sword to stop it penetrating. A sword that had been foiled, and came to be known simply as a "foil".

[@MonteKowalsky]

The only good foil has an Italian grip :P

[@DSFARGEG00]

Olympic fencing is to actual fencing as airsoft is to actual guns.

[@albertbresca8904]

harsh!! lol.. as an Olympic fencer and starting HEMA you might be right... but i still hate the idea..lol

[@jerrygillespie6121]

Very interesting

[@dirkbruere]

So if you want a fast blade, why not make it out of carbon fbre composite instead of steel?

[@Riceball01]

Because carbon fiber is too rigid and brittle. You'd have a problem with it either being reinforced to handle the stresses involved but but be potentially deadly or made too weak where they would break on impact with another sword or fencer. You could, maybe, make the guard and/or the grip out of carbon fiber but that's about it.

[@dirkbruere]

@@Riceball01 Well, use another composite then eg boron whisker, nanotubes or graphene. It's the principle not the specific technology.

[@joeplaice6177]

You need a blade to be sharp, and not break. Steel is nice because you can make it so it bends instead of breaking, or even better, springs instead of breaking. Any materials that beat steel at being sharp will shatter if used like a sword, and any materials that beat steel at durability are really, really, really bad at being sharp. Titanium is much lighter, and is pretty good at being both sharp and hard, but it doesn't flex. It's pretty easy to snap a titanium drill bit, and a blade would fall apart pretty quick. We make new and better materials everyday, but a lot of those new materials are steel alloys. SaceX's new Mars rocket switched materials halfway through planning because we figured out a new kind of stainless steel.

[@nygren83]

They should rubber-coat all the parts that aren't the edge or the point. That way only the pointy parts would register as hits.

[@gordonlove144]

The rubber coating does not last long enough. And once it is flawed, points could be scored either properly, or improperly, and there would be no way to tell which it was

[@thecaveofthedead]

I think it should be uncontroversial that developments in fencing in the 20th century did nothing to increase the popularity of the discipline, and have undermined its credibility as a martial art. Going back to the martial art principles of fencing would not only make it more appealing as a sport but would make it more watchable too. The reason why sports fencers are often good when transferring to more martial arts based sword fighting is the average level of discipline in sports clubs. But electric scoring and ultra-light weapons have made the sport too fast to be watchable and removes the underpinning of the martial art to rob it of the essential appeal of sword fighting (hitting with the flat of the blade is agonisingly absurd - and the flick-hit with the tip is hardly better). Historical fencing salles should increase competition without electric scoring and with weapons that represent the swords they're ostensibly training for and steadily eclipse the BS unwatchable and ridiculous sports fencing of today. As an aside, foil right-of-way rules are often misrepresented as being an artificial sporting move. They're martial arts training - drilling the smallsword fighter to always parry incoming attacks and not to foolishly attack into an attack. Successfully duelling with the smallsword means surviving the duel - not just incapacitating your opponent.

[@danilonascimento9866]

I see the same problem in modern Olympic Archery. There, the problem is not that modern bows are made of modern composite materials, but "auxiliary" equipment to improve results, counterweights, clickers and sights, at the expense of "art form" part of the technique. In the name of "improvement of the esport," Olympic Fencing was turned into a "game of tag" and "whipping with metal rod"

[@gordonlove144]

The substantial rise in number of fencers in fencing during the 20th Century is well-documented. The number of clubs in the UK increased about 1,000-fold in a few decades. Modern Olympic-Rules fencing only started seriously diverging from martial art principles after about 1990.

[@candelariabogliano5857]

My humble opinion as a fencer of almost 20 years (modern fencer), it should be taken as what it is, a sport, with historical roots, but of course not as something realistic. Maybe from the outside it is difficult to understand, but the same happens for me with many sports i am not familiar with. As a foilist i get that many people find conventions artificial, but... it's a sport, with rules. What results from those rules existing is a way of combat different from the other olympic weapons which is a whole world and it can only be truly understood form the inside, as i imagine with any weapon, even a historical one. What I mean is that noone is claiming modern fencing to be an accurate martial art, it is something derived from it that resulted in a beautiful sport. No modern fencer tries to pose as a historical fighter, so why try and change the sport instead of understanding it's a different thing? Sorry for my bad english as i'm not a native speaker. Also i don't want to start a fight, i just really love the sport and get frustrated when people want it to be something that it is not. I teach at a salle where every year more and more new people arrive to learn, so for me the main reason the sport is not that popular is the cost of the material, specially in countries outside of Europe.

[@gordonlove144]

I predate the electrification of Modern Olympic-Rules (MOR) sabre. The original electrification only allowed for cuts with the true edge - unfortunately the technology was insufficiently reliable in competition use. Now that micro-eelctro-mechanical systems are available (the sorts of things that sense the tilt of your smartphone), ther are groups working on returning MOR sabre to only allowing proper cuts to score points.

[@samsignorelli]

Good luck making it affordable to replace a broken blade.

[@100dfrost]

I hate "pop up" adds that display across my view as I try to watch something. It becomes so annoying to me that it becomes all I can see while viewing. Nice content though.

[@ambebhavani]

Adblock Plus works, and is free.

[@alejandroochoa559]

Ok, so just to confirm, épées and foils ARE rapiers then?

[@AnimeSunglasses]

No. Developed from doesn't mean it works the same way.

[@alejandroochoa559]

@@AnimeSunglasses woooooooosh

[@colterjohnson1525]

That's not a rapier, now this is a rapier! Lol

[@peterjaimez1619]

S2000 Is a kind of blade, used for electric saber. Cheers

[@samsignorelli]

And they were stiffened in 2000 NOT to cut down on flick hits, but to cut down on whipovers where a blade would be parried, but still bend around to hit the lame.

[@kyleheins]

It's too bad sport fencing forgot about the older weapons...

[@Malilus]

I can really understand your opinion, but what you also could mention is, that these three weapons are so light, that you only need "light" protective gear and it's also a good sport for teenagers.

[@eoagr1780]

@@Malilus I think he meant bayonet and dagger and foil/epee fencing. Some early xx and xix footage show this weapons being displayed.

[@HS-su3cf]

Wonder how good fencers ordinary 19th-century cavalrymen were?

[@wlewisiii]

Like rifle marksmanship today - some were great, most were competent and a few can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside.

[@Blutroth]

I don't like the feel of modern sports weapons - in particular that they are like whips. I want my blade to be straight when thrusting, to make sure the point hits my intended target area. With whippy blades you get a really weird feeling...something i can't quite describe. You have to experience the difference yourself.

[@Erykthebat]

My problem is I used to call Eppes Foils

[@frogman4700]

i am not first

[@goldengoat1737]

I’m sorry I have used the term raiper interchangeably for all the swords you have shown. I will stop

[@exploatores]

Is it only me, who thinks a modern olympic sword. moves more like a riding Crop then a historical sword.

[@mikefule]

No, it isn't only you. It's one of the reasons I gave up foil after about 3 years taking it very seriously - fencing 3 nights a week at 2 local clubs. The flick hit takes it so far away from sword fighting that I lost interest. You can score a hit over your opponent's shoulder onto his upper back with 500 grammes of pressure pushing the tip down about 2 mm. Not only would that be impossible with a real sword, but the amount of force is so slight it would not even be felt as a hit in a real fight. There are still some purists who prefer "steam" (i.e. non-electric) fencing. I just drifted away from the sport because it wasn't "as advertised".

[@gregorstamejcic2355]

hoho, first!

[@scholagladiatoria]

Second, but still good :-)

[@Anathmatician]

Nope. No argument. You can hit with the flat. People do it all the time.

[@repeat_defender]

i finally got my first synthetic longsword waster thanks to ye olde government stimulus check after practicing with the truly awful Cold Steel plastic waster or a stick for 4 years! man, what a difference.

[@meltedplasticarmyguy]

Am I the only one bothered by the "saber" not being a saber?

[@keeganowens8949]

No.

[@johnladuke6475]

Car antenna is not sword. Got it.

[@gordonlove144]

Used with martially proper technique, those Modern Olympic-rules sabres can work perfectly well against even replica mediaeval arming sword. The flexibility is not in the plane of the cut.