Olympic Saber Fencing vs. HEMA - Different Ways to Cut

When making any comparison between Olympic fencing and historical martial arts we obviously have to keep in mind the differences (competitive sport versus combat simulation, different rules & equipment, etc). There is also some overlap when it comes to footwork, offensive / defensive actions, timing, and so on.
In this video I look at a few techniques from sabre fencing and compare them to cutting mechanics in a unarmored dueling scenario informed by medieval and renaissance history. There are many ways to strike with a sword, which typically emphasize either speed / defense or power / offense (or try to find a balance in between). Let's delve into a few options with their individual pros & cons.
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• How To Make Saber Cuts...
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[@googleisacruelmistress1910]

Olympic fencing is basically a form of touch sparring so it focuses on speed above all, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you won't be landing any heavy blows with it

[@goudawgs]

At an Olympic level you won't be receiving heavy blow, at an early level you will definitely be receiving blows that are way to heavy cause they haven't figured out that they don't really need to use their shoulder yet. Also while it still remains a touch sport, if you're fencing Dry Sabre, ie no electronic scoring equipment, phrases become a lot more important and it becomes less jousty

[@TocsTheWanderer]

@@goudawgs Maybe they're heavy in the context of fencing, but I can't see how a fencing foil or saber could actually deal anything like a heavy blow.

[@flayar3207]

Agreed but it's still a spectacular sport to watch and I love it

[@leo.0532]

@@goudawgs I’m a fencer practitioner and I can definitely conferm that. If u practise sabre fencing you’ll get a lot of painful hits Sorry for the bad english I’m italian

[@googleisacruelmistress1910]

@@flayar3207 agreed

[@ryancook2696]

This will probably go down as my favorite HEMA vs Fencing video. As a sport fencer and coach, I sincerely appreciate this compare and contrast approach. There's room for HEMA and Olympic Fencing to co-exist, there's room for us to learn from each other, and there's room for us to say "this works for my thing, that works for your thing, some things work in both, and that's okay." Watching your videos, I often find myself thinking "oh, we do something like that too," and other times I'm like "huh, that's new, maybe I can try that." There's room to learn from each other and I dig that. Also, I deeply appreciate your speech at the end encouraging people to basically fuck off and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a fencing video and seen a HEMA enthusiast comment specifically just to ruin everybody's fun. Anyway, I already very much enjoyed your content, and this just deepens my respect for you. Thanks.

[@JoshuaBenitezNewOrleans]

Skal is always good for exactly this!!

[@dksamaritan5200]

That quite funny actually, I've been in fencing and mma forums that bash on HEMA and Krav Maga specifically as well. I agree with you, everybody needs to mind their own business, or debate in a polite fashion.

[@ryancook2696]

Skall liked this comment. I feel accomplished now 🤣

[@ryancook2696]

@@dksamaritan5200 I feel like a lot of the time it's from a defensive place. Fencer Bob will see a few videos or comments attacking his sport, and will take a similar tact regarding HEMA. I'd imagine a similar kneejerk reaction can occur amongst HEMA practitioners. And then there are just bad actors who foolishly mistake their preferences for objective standards to which everything must adhere. At the end of the day, if we could just all just start the conversation with "on you think swords are cool? Me too!" the world would be a much better place lol.

[@dksamaritan5200]

@@ryancook2696 yep.

[@chadwick8193]

On the lightsaber comment, Christopher Lee, he played Count Doku, was trained in sword fighting, and it is reflected in his character. Count Doku was the fencer jedi/dark jedi.

[@deathridesabike5619]

Same thing with the final fight scene between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. The person inside of the Vader suit was an Olympic Saber Fencer and he also trained Mark Hamill for lightsaber dueling.

[@TheHKZero]

I mean there was an old interview with Lucas himself where he stated the inspiration behind the Jedi fighting style was Samurai with Fencing. So his comment was oddly fitting even if he didn't know it.

[@RaderizDorret]

Yup. Form II in the old EU.

[@njamilla]

Neither Peter Diamond nor Nick Gillard learned Japanese sword arts (they told me so), but you don't even have to be a fencer or swordsman to create choreography. However, actors generally defer to the creative skills of their choreographer because their skill is a visual art, not combat or competition. Lee, technically, wasn't trained in sword fighting; he had Western fencing skills. And Gillard, for health and demonstrative reasons, replaced Lee with a digitally inserted Kyle Rowling. Lee was happy with this because he knew he couldn't physically perform lightsaber scenes.

[@littlesnowflakepunk855]

The whole thing that I find interesting about the concept of a lightsaber is that literally all of the mass is concentrated at the hilt, with the blade having no bearing on it, and literally any hit will cut regardless of how hard. This theoretically lends itself to a more reach/defense based fighting style with lots of thrusting, like fencing, as opposed to the wild flailing shown in the movies.

[@arpioisme]

The thing he described in 11:47 is called a falso impuntato in bolognese system. A 'tripped/jibbed/stopped' false edge cut. Kinda like how you let a flail ball swing while stopping the haft. Used more as provocation than a true attack, usually aimed towards the temple or the eyes, but it is very useful. Especially in sword and buckler or rotella, or in two handed sword. The paralel in meyer, RDL, and liegniczer system might be the sturzhau, as meyer description says. (But sturzhau might be done more diagonally, except -maybe- in liegniczer)

[@EntropicEcho]

In Lecküchner it's called the Winker, one of the Meisterhauen. Meant to cut over a "crooked parry" (Bogen). :)

[@Skallagrim]

Yes, what I showed as the HEMA version is a Sturzhau, similar to what you describe. However, changing from true to false edge happens *before* impact, while this technique in Olympic fencings seems to be changing edge alignment right on / after impact.

[@aliteralflamingpileofgarba6236]

I know it’s pronounced bo-lun-yays/bo-lun-ees but I always read it as bolgna-eez

[@jacobsomebody9266]

Very interesting and informative!

[@tarille1043]

Olympic Fencing, HEMA Tournaments and actual historic dueling are like apples, oranges and pears. In both Olympic Fencing and HEMA Tournaments, there's leeway for certain things due to the nature of point systems used. While in historic duels things were more clear cut (Literally) with actual bodily harm being the indication of good hits or not. This is just the way it is, due to the nature of no longer actually killing/wounding each other there has to be rules that allow for definitive scoring systems. It makes things somewhat different than what it would have been historically, but that doesn't detract from these sports in of themselves (Or any other similar martial sports such as Kendo etc).

[@lordvulvanon7695]

In my language the example you made is counter productive as the saying is apples and pears (literally translated) which threw me off

[@johndododoe1411]

@@lordvulvanon7695 He acknowledged that by using all 3 fruits from local sayings of that form.

[@Dan_Kanerva]

@@lordvulvanon7695 just change it to: "pineapples" , "coconuts" and "bananas"...

[@acethemain7776]

the only way to make it more realistic is full dive vr like those japanese animes

[@tarille1043]

@@Thelaretus Well... That's certainly true about the gladiatorial games (Which makes sense because it's not good business practice to kill off your best gladiators) But there have been plenty of duels to the death in history. With some cases death not being the end of the duel but a result of the injuries sustained during one. Duels have happened in wars (Single combat) as well as judiciial precedings (Trial by Combat and Holmgang) which have ended in deaths

[@mikekoh13]

There is an analogue for the Olympic fencing's belly cut in HEMA. The Bolognese sources describe the "falso imputanto" where at the last moment of a true edge cut the palm's orientation is flipped (depending on which side it originates from.) However, it's described more as the point drilling in rather than a false edge slash. You can find it in a few different sidesword sources, as well as the 2 handed Marozzo material (part one of the first assault if anyone is interested)

[@Skallagrim]

Yes, what I showed as the HEMA version is a Sturzhau, similar to what you describe. However, changing from true to false edge happens before impact, while this technique in Olympic fencings seems to be changing edge alignment right on / after impact.

[@noahwinslow3252]

@@Skallagrim My thought on this cut was in preparation to parry the opponent's potential counter attack. Thoughts?

[@jjschm20]

I think it really shows that Olympic fencing, even thought it’s been “sportified”, keeps so many fundamentals and basic techniques of actual sword combat, even if the mindset is totally different.

[@AstOnokGaming]

I usually make the distinction of Sport Fencing and Historical Fencing for this reason. Also fun facts - the Nova Scotia HEMA community really started as an outgrowth of the Dal Fencing Club when i bought a longsword one day and Xian told us he had experience training it. Fast forward a few years and here we are

[@Dayl_Adams]

question, does Nova Scotia translate as “new Scotland” ? Iv heard this somewhere but have no idea if true, I believe it is Latin ? I could google this but that wouldnt be as fun so here we are

[@AstOnokGaming]

@@Dayl_Adams yep! Its latin i believe

[@Dayl_Adams]

@@AstOnokGaming that’s awesome! Small Scotland keeps impressing me with all the Scottish inventions and now this.

[@johndododoe1411]

Awesome, have you reached out to Skal about getting him into the club?

[@AstOnokGaming]

@@johndododoe1411 im not heavily involved with them anymore but their main coach was in some of his previous sparring videos so theyre jn contact

[@hailhydreigon2700]

Great video, Skall! That being said, I can't believe nobody has made a proper "Differences between Olympic and HEMA Fencing" video. Every video I see is just a rant about how much they don't like one or the other, and not explaining the differences from an unbiased and informed/experienced point of view. The closest I've seen is from SnapJelly, but even he rants a bit.

[@brittakriep2938]

There is in KZbin a Video from early 1920s ( black and white/ silent), which shows the change of saber sportfencing between 1900s and 1920s, both in equipment and fencing style.

[@Cru128]

HEMA and Fencing are different, but are both inevitably rooted in historical duels.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

@@brittakriep2938 this is the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3LYZZecbruNqa8

[@midshipman8654]

well, its two completely different mindsets, there are core conceptual differences that make it almost an inevitability that will happen. And I cannot fault one for its critiques of the other. for me personally: HEMA in large part, by its very conception is more of a historical interest group rather than a propper sport. as it is dedicated to the studying of historical fighting material rather than a particular ruleset of an organized universal compotition. its full of experimenting and changing rules so it is essentially and ultimately “abstract”. yes you can have competitions with a ruleset, but as there is no set rule to translate a marshal exercise to a professional compotion, its essentially fleeting as a sport. something that might be iligal here might separate the spirit from the law. while fencing is very much a product of the law rather than the spirit, and in a way it needs to be to be a universalized sport. unlike running where the goal itself is rather simple (though of course, training is hard) there are a lot of somewhat arbitrary perimeters that NEED to be maintained for fencing to be a diligently maintained ruleset. this can cause things to be centered around concrete parameters rather than a abstract concept. that plus there being traditions within the ruleset that then creates its own “scene” becoming its own beast. but it could be said those rulesets themselves are a problem, but thats kind of an massive cunundrum, because changing the rules somewhat invalidates its universalism. of course, that doesnt invalidate the grips of the ruleset itself. they BOTH Can be critiqued very much so legitimately without just saying “they are just there own thing, dont complain”, but just recognizing there are both gripes for as well as reasons for why those things are like they are. there isnt anything wrong with taking umbrage with things and being opinionated, just being respectful about it is better for communication. there are these paradoxical things that cause people to have legitament complaints one way or another, just like there are unfounded claims as well.

[@brittakriep2938]

@@esgrimaxativa5175 : This is it!

[@nicgreaves3484]

Nice to see someone from the HEMA community not just dismiss Olympic fencing outright. Your points are spot on; Olympic Sabre is optimised for speed where things like edge alignment and minimum amounts of force has been lost over the years. I'd personally love to see lightsabre fights in the style of Olympic Sabre (but I may be biased).

[@abraxabau]

they do? what do the nerds say lmao?

[@hailhydreigon2700]

What you want to see exists. It's called Lightspeed Saber League. Basically Olympic Saber Fencing with lightsabers. Look them up here on KZbin.

[@Adam_okaay]

@@abraxabau that it's not real sword fighting.

[@ct7567CaptRex]

Im not the biggest fan of olympic fencing. Too fast for the eyes, to flashy, no real stakes in the fight, no real swords, only overly thin metal rods/needles. Boooooooring.

[@aurelian2668]

Yes but olympic fencing holding a real rapier they probably wont be able to mimic with the stick rapier that they use because of how light it is.

[@CrazyTom34]

Former Sabre fencer here, it is easily the Olympic style most divorced from its origins. The "cutting" technique has completely reworked and ignores even the concept of striking with the actual cutting edge. I love the sport still but accept what it is, its the touch karate of the sword fighting world.

[@CrazyTom34]

I also completely support the lightsaber comment, if touches instantly cut these mechanics would be dominant style.

[@connord5827]

I’ve always been taught to try and hit with the edge but you can hit with the rest of the blade.

[@CrazyTom34]

@@connord5827 fair, every team and school is different. I came from a very olympic focused facility, footwork was supreme and blade work as all speed efficiency.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

Sport saber fencer and HEMA practitioner here. I do Spanish saber and am quite familiar with Italian and British broadsword/saber systems as well. The sport fencer you cited in your video needs to do more finger work to cut correctly and I mean this not only for real cutting but "cutting" for the sport as well. Remember, sport fencing comes from first blood duelling. It doesn't come from Bolognese side sword, Polish saber, messer, or even Highland broadsword. It comes from a highly ritualized form of duelling that nearly always resulted in the first hit ending the affair. This is where all these direct snap or push cut techniques come from. It is quite an interesting part of HEMA to document the exact point when it all became a sport but it's actually our main area of interest in our club. Here's a link to some of my translations of Spanish saber manuals and me cutting things with a Spanish saber and even a sport saber. my books: www.lulu.com/es/search?adult_audience_rating=00&contributor=John+Jakelsky&page=1&pageSize=10 milk bottles getting cut with 530 gram Spanish infantry saber: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJSohIihdriMo9U cutting with a sport saber,wtf? yes, you can do it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4TXh6R5f8Zlm80 some of my molinets: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJnPpYiAorqmsLs

[@JTeam45]

Well, that's how Count Dooku was such an effective lightsaber dualist. His form was very fencing based, obviously exaggerated but it was on Christopher Lee's request to use fencing.

[@WastelandArmorer]

A lightsaber would be perfect, because it doesnt need a solid hit to injure or kill

[@njamilla]

You are one of the few people in HEMA that I have seen acknowledge that competitive Olympic fencing IS the direct historical expression of the development of swordsmanship. The knowledge of modern fencing stems from a long line of expert swordsmen that have been training in European academies for hundreds of years. Fencing, like any sword that derives from battlefield predecessors, is the result of many cultural changes related to society. Culture and swords are complicated things. Each influences the other to varying degrees. HEMA tries to interrupt this development by trying to rediscover past techniques that were discarded or forgotten because no one fights medieval or renaissance battles anymore. So, whereas the HEMA approach is "hobbiest" in origin, I am glad to see that it has become forensic and academic in how it is now taught and trained. Fencing, went a different way and reflects three Eurocentric sword styles, ultimately becoming its most popular because of modern, rule-based, competitive Olymipic goals. Why we fence the way we do cannot be detached from culture, as is done in movie and stage choreography. Athletic skill and prowess is the hallmark of all fighting. If the world were to devolve into sword culture, it would be the athletes who would come to dominate field. This is already happening in HEMA. The best HEMA practitioners are athletes, not only geeky and nerdy manual bookworms. HEMA practitioners would learn a lot from the athletic prowess of Olympic fencers. On the other side, there are many competitive fencers who absolutely appreciate what HEMA has done for fencing. We fencers in our white uniforms would benefit from HEMA's explorations. However, there's just not a lot of cross-pollination. There are basically sub-groups (LARP, choreographers, fencers, HEMA, Asian martial artists, MMA), of whom the least qualified (and least experienced) poo poo the other arts. The best, most experienced, and most informed fencers or swordsmen would revel in the friendship and cooperation of any other good sword practitioner.

[@radivojevasiljevic3145]

You confused quite a few things about HEMA.

[@sleekEDITINGco]

Been scrolling KZbin in search of a chuckle for about an hour, havnt found anything so I thought "hey I'll just watch the new skall video..." but damn I was not ready for the "female members of the audience will agree..." that got me good. I appreciate you.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

As a man what I shal say is that if he had sayed that while in arms reach after a step or less he would have been punched. Why? I dont know, culture and religion wise my family has no taboo on sex, so its propablly nature that would cause me to punch him without hesitation. (If outside hands reach after 2 steps I just growl.)

[@KP3droflxp]

@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 you must be very badass xD

[@scimatar5]

That last cut you touched on, is exactly correct. In a real saber duel, if you miss a cut, you can sometimes turn your hand and make an upwards draw cut to the wrist as the opponent closes distance for their counter or riposte, but since saner is scored by your sword making contact with the lame of the opponent, adjustments were made. Number one, the side of a saber at the tip is quite flexible, so there's less of a chance of harming your opponent, because the blade will flex through their wrist. Second is the light saber concept you mentioned; Olympic Saber is very fast, and you only have to make contact to score, so by only using a half turn of the wrist and cutting sideways, it is much faster. Any speed advantage you can get in Olympic saber is not only appreciated, but necessary. This also explains that weird twist during the belly cut. You have to be pretty close to hit that cut, so your opponent has ample time for a counter attack. If you don't make that weird twist, it takes longer to get your guard back in position, which leaves you exposed. Since edge alignment doesn't matter in Olympic fencing, that twist of the wrist doesn't change the distance you have to be at to make contact, and you get your guard up faster. And because of the right of way rules used to help score in Olympic saber, if your opponent hits your guard, it counts as a parry. So if they hit your guard but you both of you hit for a light and both lights go off, the point is scored as a party-riposte for you. This makes it much more important for you to get your guard back in front of you as quickly as possible.

[@eljuano28]

Just a shift of thought; The "classical duel" in the times of royal or official prohibition or ban tended to lead to charges being filed or military position or rank being forfeit, therefore later recorded examples of duels often include things like "To first blood on the forearm," or "First point," (literally a shallow stick of the point not intended to kill persay,) so as to gain satisfaction without risking everything one has spent their life in pursuit of. It makes a lot of sense, though be clear this is only a suggestion, that Olympic fencing would stem from this less than mortal necessity of individual combat rather than the earlier "to the death" form of warfare. At that, the quick, relatively safe flick of the tip makes a lot more sense, don't you think? Maybe we've been looking at the Olympic duel in the wrong light to begin with.

[@kamikaze5528]

You, my friend, are absolutely correct. That is the overall history of Olympic fencing.

[@iratevagabond204]

Until they bob and you weave, and someone ends up with a foot of steel in their body. I feel like a culture of dueling would make for a more polite society.

[@brittakriep2938]

I am german, but no academic. Also German Academic Fencing , as it is known today, was invented as a lesser lethal style, before late 1820 the students used thrust fencing with an unsharpened, but very pointy blade. This older style of academic fencing was dangerous and ended in 1850s.

[@MalloonTarka]

@@iratevagabond204 A culture of duelling makes for legal murder by people talented with sword/gun-play. Note that a duelling culture necessitates a loss of face when declining to duel, or else every sane person would decline to do it.

[@iratevagabond204]

@@MalloonTarka In my middle school, every friday morning, the coaches would set up a makeshift boxing ring to allow people to squash beef. My middle school had three prominent gangs (LVC, LV13, and TOC) and because of that, there was a lot of violence. The amount of violence dropped precipitously after that program was implemented, and safer. The coaches would tape our hands, put gloves on us, headgear, and cheap unfitted mouth guards. There were still shootings, but those dropped as well. I think if someone wants to kill, they will kill. Those people who grew so bold to use such a system to murder, would very likely meet their end by extra judicial means.

[@jordandimov3455]

I appreciate that you don't crap on the sport, like most of the hema comparison videos. It will be interesting to see you in a olimpic fencing club or something.

[@liontamer2006]

I'm surprised Matt Easton isn't commenting on this; being that he is an actual fencing instructor.

[@aiexmonsterhunter]

I guess the main difference is that in Olympic fencing you are not aiming to damage your adversary, whereas the techniques in HEMA are oriented to deliver effective cuts that could kill/incapacitate the oponent in a real combat scenario.

[@GallowglassAxe]

As a person who started in Olympic fencing I do appreciate the respect you gave to the sport in this video. What you showed in with the sabre video that is proper teachings and knew what he was talking about. So there was no pulling out of context or use of a crappy teacher. Now to put into context what he was doing. In Olympic sabre you do not need any edge alignment to score a point. As long as your blade hits your opponent above the waist (and not the hands) it will register a hit. The reason for that roll or strike with the flat is to keep the D-Guard in protecting the wrist. The other part about the snap cuts is the Rules of Right of Way. To make it short basically if there is a double hit there is a complex set of rules to determine who gets the point. In the rules is the one who initiates forward movement in the attack. Pulling the arm back is called a preparation and even if you hit the person but they hit you in the process you will lose the Right of Way. I could go more into history of Sabre fencing like Pre-electric which was in the 80's, the super floppy blades of the 90's, the accelerometer experiments, and more. Not to mention foil and epee have their own histories.

[@TocsTheWanderer]

The concept of "Right of Way" is my biggest issue with Olympic fencing. Imo, any double hit should result in nobody getting points. They need to focus more on not getting hit at all.

[@mattbowden4996]

@@TocsTheWanderer But right of way it dates all the way back to 18th century foil fencing and it's purpose is to instill good practice in fencers and punish simply counter attacking all the time. At it's root, the point of right of way is to teach the fencer to deal with his opponents attack before he makes an offensive action of his own rather than making the instinctive reaction of thrusting in response to being thrust at. This is good practice in any kind of swordplay because all a double hits means is that you are both dead and therefore you have both lost. Historical fencing masters were training their students for real duels with live weapons and students that didn't learn to parry before counter attacking would quickly end up dead and not paying for extra lessons. Even though combat in earnest has no rules, historical fencers (at least from the 18th century onwards) would all have been familiar with the concept of "right of way" from their practice in the salle because it teaches you good fencing habits.

[@michaelthen5667]

@@TocsTheWanderer just fence epee then it has the most lax right of way rules that can be in fencing.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

@@mattbowden4996 17th century!

[@mattbowden4996]

@@esgrimaxativa5175 I don't doubt that you can find it in 17th century systems, but I wasn't 100% sure - whereas I was absolutely sure that right of way was a feature of 18th century foil.

[@amphionification]

I did a bit of Olympic saber fencing. This video is really cool. Thank you for sharing. Oh wow, as I was writing this I noticed that Tyler is the son of the main fencing coach my son and I learned from. What a small world!

[@minarchist1776]

For all practical purposes a collegiate fencing Saber is a car antenna with a funny handle on it. You are trying to score "touches" on your opponent that don't end up having that much force behind them. Both because the blade really can't deliver a lot of force and also because the style neither emphasizes nor rewards that. The only real exception to that is Saber fencers will have a tendency to go for mask attacks. Their blades can end up moving so fast that it is hard even for experienced fencing judges to see a touch. But if they strike their opponent's mask hard enough they can create sparks which the judges can see easier. When I was doing collegiate Saber fencing there were a variety of different guards and attacks I was taught that I simply went along with because that was the way things were done. Later I got the chance to play around with a Civil War cavalry Saber that had been designed and balanced to be used in combat. All of a sudden a bunch of moves and techniques that I had simply done by rote made a lot of sense when using a blade that had actually been designed for them. It felt like the blade "wanted" to go to some of the parry and guard positions and there were attacks that naturally flowed. I wouldn't totally disparage collegiate fencing, but it tends to be a little bit more of a dance than a true combat style. In HEMA as I understand it you're trying to recreate the combat styles but also do so in a way that nobody gets hurt. Which means that there are some techniques that you really can't put into practice. FWIW I once had a conversation with another fencer about a lady who had joined their group who had done a lot of training in one of the martial arts. He said they had a heck of a time trying to get her to stop kicking after she parried. While that made perfect sense from the standpoint of standard collegiate fencing I thought that her response could potentially be viable and effective in an actual combat.

[@krispalermo8133]

My uncle was a Aikido jujutsu Karate instructor back in the 1980's, and I was raised in mix martial arts. From reading his book collection printed in the 1970's. Asian martial arts and European traditional fencing school/ not what I would call modern view of HEMA, used " rope training." They tied the students at a given range from each other where only the tips of the weapons could make contact with each other, and the students " shadow box " with each other. This way they could practice their most .. lethal .. moves and not risk their training partner life. Many of those European writers were teenagers when WW I broke out and later on veterans of WW II, so when it comes down to murder with a knife or club, and sometimes military officer saber, .. they were experts. Another issues regarding so called .. purists .. in fencing schools regarding to the Spanish & Italians. They were fighting everyone on the Mediterranean sea and a good bunk of their tactics were to deal with the Ottoman navy along with their south east neighbors. Young Sicilians were learning as much they could down at their local wine tent training under the elders as a rich man did at a posh fencing school. Well, nobles made to big a thing regards to the sword, the common folk had to use everything they could to defend themselves and defeat a scimitar/ short spear wielder.

[@roitester166]

Why do you keep calling it collegiate fencing? This is an Olympic sport practiced by all ages, it's not related to colleges. Also the thing about sparks from the mask being why sabre fencers attack there is simply false.

[@minarchist1776]

@@roitester166 I call it collegiate fencing because when and where I practiced it the vast majority of people doing it were in college. Only a very few of them ever made it to the Olympics. Otherwise you are effectively saying that streetcar racing is the same thing as going for a NASCAR championship race. As for calling my comment on saber fencers making mask hits false, you, sir, madam, indeterminate, whatever, are either woefully ignorant or badly misinformed. THE PEOPLE WHO TAUGHT ME HOW TO FENCE SABER TAUGHT ME THAT TECHNIQUE. I USED THAT TECHNIQUE MYSELF BOTH WHEN I WAS FENCING AND WHEN I WAS JUDGING. THE SPARKS THAT CAN GET GENERATED ON A GOOD MASK HIT ARE QUITE DISTINCTIVE. But then if you actually knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have made that comment. So I shall now stop feeding the ignorant troll.

[@roitester166]

@@minarchist1776 You have no idea what you are talking about, and I'm the troll? I have won national championships with the sabre with decades of experience and you're so confidently incorrect that it's hilarious. Sabre hasn't used judges since electric scoring came along 35 years ago in 1986. I'm sure you were taught that at the time, but it's not true. Sabreurs do not attack the head more often to generate sparks.

[@minarchist1776]

@@roitester166 Well there you go. I was active in fencing from 1977 to 1980. It was held that because saber could cut as well as thrust that electric scoring techniques were useless with that weapon and all scoring had to be done visually. If they have in fact solved that problem then you might be correct. But anybody can claim to be a champion and other than the word of somebody who has demonstrated they want to be antagonistic I have no reason to consider your presentation to be valid.

[@microwavespork5178]

I'm really glad you made this video, so many people complain about how unrealistic Olympic fencing is and this video allows for the explanation of the fact that Olympic fencing isn't supposed to be historically accurate because you aren't trying to kill people in the scoring system of the event!

[@conorsutherin2044]

I typically enjoy your videos, but I especially enjoyed one. The differences between momentum and kinetic energy you discuss is a fantastic listen.

[@andrewkeeler4291]

As a physicist, I disagree with your explanation for why "tip velocity doesn't matter so much" when cutting. Both momentum and energy will apply to the cutting interaction, but they affect the interaction in different ways, so it's not valid to say "well, momentum matters too, so the energy considerations can be ignored." Splitting wood is actually a good example of this, because energy scales with stopping distance in an interaction, while momentum scales with stopping time. So in an extreme case, you might prefer to split wood with a very fast, very light wedge since the distance that you need to cut/split through is fixed. (In before: I know that's not how splitting wood is really done, but the splitting wood analogy is nevertheless a bad reason for why cutting too close to the tip doesn't work) So why is cutting too close to the tip bad? It's the constant of motion that you didn't mention (and that most people forget about): angular momentum. When you cut, your sword trajectory is an arc roughly centered on your pommel. During a cut, there are three things that interact to affect the overall trajectory of the blade. Gravity pulling the blade down, your hand pushing the blade down, and the impact with the cutting surface, pushing up. Angular momentum considers not just the size of the interaction force but also where that force is applied, as forces that occur further from the rotation point have a larger influence over the subsequent rotational motion. So for a tip cut, the force of the cut in robbing the blade of its angular momentum is at its peak, while gravity (acting roughly on the middle of the blade) and your hand (acting very near the pommel) have smaller effects in continuing the cut. Contrast this with a mid-blade cut, where the force of the cut now has a much smaller "lever arm" to apply its rotational force to the blade, and it becomes a little clearer why mid-blade cuts feel more powerful and cleaner.

[@nono547]

Yeah.... Your comment make me realise how poor of a naming convention angular momentum was... Since it describe rotationnal energy and not momentum... X')

[@lachlancoles9119]

Another factor to consider is mechanical rigidity. A cut with the tip has a very long, flexible connection the driving element (aka fencer) which allows more of the energy and momentum to be lost to the blade flexing and warping than a mid-blade cut.

[@Skallagrim]

Perhaps my formulation should have been more precise, but I definitely wasn't trying to say that tip velocity doesn't matter so much. Like I said in the video, increasing momentum has a different effect, and emphasizing either momentum or energy makes sense depending on the target. A quick tip cut works well against unprotected hands or arms, while only a more powerful cut lower on the blade has any chance to inflict an incapacitating wound to the torso or head.

[@andrewkeeler4291]

@@lachlancoles9119 very true. And that's also the reason why the branch bent out of the way of the chakram later in the video. It wasn't "the momentum prevented the energy transfer," it's that the energy transfer caused a bend in the branch before causing a crack that would have resulted in a cut.

[@andrewkeeler4291]

@@Skallagrim fwiw, your conclusions about cuts are correct, as you ably demonstrate in the video. However, your physical arguments for why they are correct sounded quite wrong to me, which of course risks them being very unpersuasive to people that don't agree with you. That may be a case of me parsing something that you didn't intend to be there, and that would be on me for reading in more than you were trying to say, but if other people are getting what I got from it, then you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by undercutting your correct conclusions with erroneous-sounding reasoning.

[@ElGringoCastellano]

This reminds me of comparisons between full contact vs touch martial arts rules. Many people criticize point style karate and tae kwon do for being less effective, but combined with other styles in MMA they allow fighters like Stephen Thompson to stay safe and deliver a lot of counters. Similarly, I think Olympic fencing teaches useful habits to more full contact HEMA fighters

[@jessegitchell8114]

Both Shad and Skall have come to a similar conclusion here about lightsabers. What I love about it is that they're both right in the context of a saber duel. This is why we have Form 2: Makashi, the form used by Count Dooku. It's basically just that.

[@chengkuoklee5734]

Christopher Fucking Lee himself is a swordman.

[@Densoro]

Kind of a ripoff that they give him a weapon that can burn through 6-foot-thick steel doors, but then his tap-cuts mostly leave superficial flesh wounds xD His every move should be able to dismember someone Jedi Outcast-style.

[@andrewli6606]

@@Densoro Well, realistically, a lightsaber would cause blood to boil instantly, so kinda hard to market action figures if stormtroopers exploded into crimson guts.

[@jessegitchell8114]

@@chengkuoklee5734 D*mn strait. He stacked real bodies to earn that presence.

[@jessegitchell8114]

@@Densoro As I see it, that speaks to Dooku's excellent control over the duel more than anything else. If he'd wanted, he could've ended Kenobi and Skywalker in seconds on Geonosis.

[@Densoro]

Your point about soft vs hard tissue reminds me of the time I tried to design an action-RPG battle system based on my experience in the SCA. Started off with the usual strike, pierce, slice, but they can also combine: Strike + slice = chop Pierce + slice = rip (such as tip-cuts, claws, etc) Strike + pierce = ram Viewing 'strike damage' as a modifier to other attacks instead of trying to figure out if soft cuts are 'better or worse' opens up a lot of room in the discussion. In addition, if you google 'wimsblog five types of impact,' he has a great article discussing open vs closed-hand striking, and concludes that 'strike' can actually be divided into five sub-types that I've rephrased slightly: Penetrating: What we're usually taught. 'Drive the force _through_ the target.' Reverberating: Hits and freezes in place. This is how furniture and architecture hit you. Bouncing: Causes you to bounce away. Ricocheting: Causes you to glance off. Think: hitting your head on a coffee table and ricocheting down to the floor. Wrenching: Hits and binds to manipulate the joint, causing whiplash. These five types of impact should modify all forms of strike damage, including chop and ram. This encompasses such a wide range of techniques, helping to articulate that x attack is not _categorically better_ than y, just _different._

[@deathridesabike5619]

I would like to mention that despite sabers name, I've heard it's more supposed to be based on the cutlass more than anything. I also partly agree with you on this topic for saber fencing because saber had some rule changes in order for some variations in fighting to happen. I would recommend looking at epee or foil fencing because they are more based on the rapier and doesn't have a lot of rule changes.

[@Schmidt54]

Olympic fencing is a sport, i.e. the participants will maximize the usage of rules within a widely safe and highly contested environment. Fencing/HEMA is a martial art, i.e. it aims towards (or rather: it used to) real life application within threatening situations that basically have no rules. Therefore it is possible to somewhat compare those two, but they are very different.

[@THISISLolesh]

Should do a different martial art if they care about real life application.

[@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268]

@@THISISLolesh you can use sword techniques with a stick

[@THISISLolesh]

@@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268 Good luck with that in a threatening situation with ‘no rules’ lol

[@Schmidt54]

@@THISISLolesh You can, and it is certainly better than to have no clue at all.

[@THISISLolesh]

@@Schmidt54 Nah. A real life threatening situation usually happens randomly out of nowhere & the odds of you finding a stick, especially in a city good enough to defend yourself against one, maybe two potentially armed people is slim to none lol. Unless you’re walking around with a big stick like you’re Gandalf, pretty wishful thinking bud. I actually laughed when the guy said you can use a stick, I mean honestly.

[@SwordTune]

I always feel weird about this topic. The way I learned "Olympic" fencing is a lot closer to HEMA than how it is done in competitions. My instructor was more traditional, and we never treated the blade like a flexible whip to flick around the guard. When I started HEMA I was surprised by this debate. In historical manuals I saw a lot of my fencing already in it. Sure, the weapons we have are weighted differently, but that's for safety not technique. In some cases, videos on "new" interpretations of historical techniques didn't seem new at all to me, but very obvious in modern fencing. But years ago I met other fencers at uni and then I saw the difference between my style and theirs.

[@SwordTune]

@burgel18 Mine just said "and now you'd be bleeding" when we didn't do something right.

[@bretth6393]

It's like how professional boxing is more about scoring hits than actually knocking out the opponent.

[@SUB0SCORION]

Olympic fencing makes sense in a historical point of view if you look at them like duels to the first blood. Fastest wins and you don't necessarily want to kill your opponent. I still hate double encouraging s ore system but it's not like doubles don't happen in Hema all the damn time.

[@Casedilla73]

So I watched another video of yours about two saber experts sparring, which got me more interested in sabers because it looked pretty cool. I looked up saber fighting on KZbin, but there wasn’t much. And then I see this video out of the blue, posted an hour ago. Have the saber gods given me a sign?

[@johngronholm1294]

As, I think, Matt Easton said: It's not swordsmanship. It's athletic as hell and they are quick as foxes on speed, but it's not swordsmanship.

[@evilmandrake]

The golfer showing up at a Mini Golf course be like, "Really? You aren't even using a driver to tee off? You'll barely make it 10 feet with that putter over this hill."

[@albinoasesino]

Types of teachers: - Those who point with their fingers - Those who point with a laser pointer - Those who point with a sword (2:02)

[@Tevatron044]

Skall i must complement your explanation, I'm a baseball bat manufacturer and your explanation has 100% validity. It's amazing how much similarity there is to baseball bats and swords. Momentum is more important to overall swing power due to energy transfer. The power of a swing is dependent on the angular momentum about the center of mass, NOT the hands. I'll put it this way. The closer to the center of mass, the more efficient the energy transfer. The closer to the tip, the more energy content

[@jaketheasianguy3307]

In conclusion : olympic fencing has some very nice explosive footwork that transfer very well to historical fencing or unarmed striking martial arts. They also have some very nice engage and disengage tactics. Everything else about manipulating the "blade", meh, it works in it's context but it makes no sense when applied to actual sword blades, and anything useful has already been written in historical manuals. Even Matt Easton agreed about this

[@SwordTune]

It depends where you learn to fence.

[@Kingpencam]

I also disagree with this as well a lot of the basic cuts are generally taught with edge alignment in mind it's usually at the higher levels of fencing that people start trying to cheese the rules. Also a lot of historical fencing techniques are used in sports fencing including national variants on style including depth of guard forwardness of the tip of the sword. Also, the power generated by the cutting techniques is actual enuff to cause brusing threw padding and split unprotected skin with the blunted rounded weapon.

[@tycarne7850]

@@Kingpencam Bruising through cloth, you say? Yes, that's definitely comparable to being walloped with a long sword.

[@mattbowden4996]

@@tycarne7850 The point is that these are not necessarily harmless little taps - not that they are about to cleave the opponent in twain. I did sport sabre and had both dealt and received some seriously painful injuries in the process despite wearing about six layers of fabric (double layered plastron, double layered fencing jacket and and electric scoring jacket which is not intended to be protective, but is also double layered). If you got hit on bare skin or through a single layer of fabric by a fast moving tip strike with some intent behind it, you would most definitely feel it for several days.

[@Kingpencam]

@@tycarne7850 it's basically 2 layers of heavy denim at minimum up to 5-6 when hooked up electrically, with a sword that's not sharpened and 30% the weight when you're not even swinging to hurt the person so naw duh it's not comparable it's purposefully not supposed to be...it the fact you can even get that is something. I'm not saying "oh yeah this is the best way to swing a sword" it's just people being overly dismissive.

[@davidgarland7736]

Your axe analogy was interesting to me. Felling axes for cutting across wood grain are much lighter and thinner to slice across the wood fibres. Splitting axes are thicker and heavier to power into the grain and force it apart. Same basic tool but different goal means different aspects to it and different techniques.

[@aggroalex5470]

As a practitioner of both the sport is built around using the muscles of the body to their fullest and because of that I would not want to use historically weighted swords. I do like the historical study of HEMA and how people used to survive real fights. The sport is F1 for sword-like tools where safe operation at full speed is key and HEMA is learning to drive stick through NY City where survival at any speed is key.

[@eaglestdogg]

f1 vs rally may be an apt comparison

[@OnyxXThePunch]

You should do a video ware you try Olympic fencing and get one to try your style. It would be extremely fascinating

[@judgesfiveeight]

As a complete novice... absent any comparison of techniques... I knew immediately upon picking up a sport fencing sabre, which was a sport derived from a martial art and which was a martial art.

[@SeriosProductions]

here's an idea for a video: the musket w/bayonet as a melee weapon. Honestly working with them, there's some unique drawbacks and advantages in melee they have.

[@tricksterjoy9740]

I want to see the opposite. Spear with a pistol attached in the front just behind the spear head a foot or so. Make it a short spear and a L on the rear end so it could be a stock. This is not intended to be practical.

[@themachinegod]

I greatly enjoyed this video, thank you. I fenced for sport in college and didn’t find HEMA until later in life. You’re right. They are two very different animals, each to be appreciated on their own.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Very good video! I basically agree on everything.

[@jasondefrisco4069]

I'm not much of a sport saber fencer, but I asked my fencing coach who has a lot of experience with the weapon about the belly cut. His instructions were different than in the Fencer's Edge video in one critical way: he said to turn the hand to align just before striking, rather than after making contact. It has two purposes: exposing the arm and hand less during the cut, and being well set up for a second cut or defense. From his perspective, turning the hand -after- making contact exposes the hand too much up until that point. He didn't say this, but I think it might also complicate the cut at a moment when one wants maximum simplicity, because it's never going to be entirely predictable how exactly the blade is going contact a living, defending opponent. His background is more more traditional, "classic"fencing than that of the Fencer's Edge instructor though. Sport fencing enthusiasts too exist on a continuum, somewhere between emphasizing its ties to historical combat training and enjoying it as a sport entirely abstracted from that background.

[@markcr392]

This covers a lot of why I stopped taking Sabre Fencing classes, it was for Olympic style tournaments. Maybe it was just the school I went to, but I was constantly being scolded for "hitting too hard," when all I was using was speed. The amount of power I used was less than 10% at the absolute maximum. It was to the point where I was questioning why any protective gear aside from the mask was even used. After I left, my friends and I would still spar, using only face protection. We'd strike with a comparitively significant increase of force and still only wind up with light bruising and tender knuckles at the worst, and we'd rarely even wind up with that level of damage. Edit/disclaimer: protective gear is always a good idea, blunted tips can break and you can get shanked.

[@scottnieradka6836]

Really? after an olympic style fencing tournament, especially ones that had beginners/high school students, I was usually covered with welts, with a few bleeding welts, through the jacket, and fracture fingers several times over the years. I never heard anyone scolded for hitting too hard, they just get their wrist picked apart.

[@markcr392]

As I said, maybe it was just my school. Also, rather than targeting the wrists they would snipe at the inner thigh in retaliation, but with the force we were being taught to use, it was always kind of laughable.

[@jonathanh4443]

There is a balance between speed and force. Once you go too much to force you lose speed. The proper way to teach is that you are employing too much 'force' and you are losing speed and then show the correct technique to employ a lighter touch that is faster. Then there are some groups that are just pansies.

[@52vepr]

@@jonathanh4443 Yes, I agree. The really good sabre fencers would hit me so fast I couldn't see it, and so lightly I couldn't feel it. It was the beginners who would hit like they were chopping a log. Not necessary in electric sabre.

[@Densoro]

Throughout high school epee fencing and at the start of my SCA experience, I had the problem of hitting too hard, and I didn't understand it because...isn't it a fight? My main problem was that I'd lunge first, and extend the arm second, so in effect I was punching people with the tip of my sword. This might've been fine in actual combat but it made people think I didn't respect or care about them haha :' ) I learned to lunge the other way around eventually, which is technically faster anyway, and people enjoyed sparring with me a lot more.

[@angrybirder9983]

Essentially, the Fencer's Edge video says "Stop fighting like you're trying to hurt your opponent, just do barely enough to make contact."

[@ronbird121]

get hema to the olympics

[@reaperwithnoname]

I was thinking about the lightsaber angle the whole video, and I was so glad to see it brought up.

[@scottnieradka6836]

Great video, one small thing I think you are missing (I used to compete nationally at olympic sabre) is the grip, which is gripped between the thumb and index finger the thumb right behind the cutting edge. This allows you to rotate the blade with the three loose fingers, and is more done simultaneously with the arm extension and wrist movement. the 4 cut to the side pulls through in a small arc/circle classically, which keeps the edge alignment more better, though this has gotten smaller over the years, especially the last 30 or so. Its been years but this is derived from 1800s military sabre manuals, it might be clearer seeing it with heavier blade. One other point you mildly talk about but is crucial is that all cuts are ties to footwork, the efficiency comes from the feet, olympic fencing is 90% footwork, which is what I think HEMA could learn the most from, as efficient footwork should translate better - it would be interesting to see a video comparing hema vs olympic sabre footwork and the reasons.

[@Riceball01]

The Olympic fencing saber grip is derived from the traditional military saber grip. Matt Easton has mentioned the saber grip numerous times when talking about a military saber in his collection. Some historical sabers were even designed specifically with the saber grip in mind and have checkering on the top of the grip close to the guard in order to give the user a better grip for their thumb. Obviously, due to the weight difference, you're not going to use an Olympic saber style cut and use the fingers to generate the cut, but the gip is the same.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

@@Riceball01 Yes and no. Just because you've got your thumb on the back doesn't mean all these grips are the same. In the modern game there are fencers who cant their blade alot and use very little finger action to give the cut. They use more of a sanp form the wrist. There are others who have the thumb noticably higher than the index finger and still others who even have the thumb almost to the side or even on the side of the rectangular part. Other's extend there index finger and hold it way back towards the pommel as in epee. There is also a lot of diversity in thumb up the back grips in military saber. Have a look at some of the Prussian, Austrian, Hungarian and Spanish sabers of the second half of the 19th century. They like the backstrap to finish in this sort of rounded very slightly bulging thing at the end. This is because they are letting that rounded part slide around in their palm as they do the actions. Italian sabers like to fix the hand more towards the guard and although they use the thumb on the back the way to handle the saber is way different for them.

[@rylie8989]

One thing I would say from a sport fencing perspective, is that the fencer's edge video doesn't show the extent to which lunging is used. Sport fencing does distinguish between standing attacks, stepping attacks, and lunging attacks, but in practice almost every attack that is not a riposte is done with a lunge. And the lunges are much faster and deeper than the stepping cuts at 9:05, basically turning every attack into much more of a drawing cut than they would otherwise be. But the fact that the weapon's light weight and higher speed basically forces fencers to forgo power generation methods using the arm and use only movement from the legs to generate power, and even more significantly the complete absence of the necessity to use proper edge alignment, are definitely two of the big ways the sport diverges from historical fencing.

[@imstupid880]

Honestly modern sabre/Olympic fencing is just the end result of a lot of things going wrong. MOF sabres actually aren't too far off from practice sabers in the late 1800s/early 1900s, though definitely thinner and more flexible. You have abuse of rules like right of way (can you believe it was meant to ENCOURAGE parrying?). Judgement becomes based on touch (back then it'd be with methods like chalk or paint), and becomes less concerned with edge alignment (which only becomes more true with electronic scoring).

[@SwordTune]

I started in sport fencing before studying HEMA, and one thing my instructors taught for saber was to cut with the edge. We knew we couldn't tell with our scoring devices, but we'd sometimes say "Yeah actually, it's obvious that would never have cut for real." It all depends. Though rare, I doubt my instructor was the only traditional old guy out there.

[@egehannalbant5572]

@@SwordTune I remember in a Parisian school of fencing, there was an instructor whose teacher used to teach cavalrymen of the French army how to fence. Fencing used to be the real deal.

[@elitav5491]

@@egehannalbant5572 "Fencing" and "Fencing" are not the same thing, though.

[@mattbowden4996]

@@SwordTune Same here, my Sabre coach was a traditionalist and it paid off for me big style when the blade regulations were changed in 2000. For about year or so, the mid level competitive sabreurs who had optimized their styles for whippy blades were completely confounded by those of us who had learned how to cut and parry in a traditional manner. Of course, everyone adapted eventually, but for a brief while it was glorious!

[@valkeakirahvi]

I'm a bofferer getting into HEMA and I found this interesting! We prioritise less weight in the swords, and all hits count, no matter how light, so I feel like it's somewhere in between these two, but many of the same principles still work!

[@its2three4]

It would be really cool for you to do a review of your thoughts on Olympic fencing matches! And thanks for sharing this very thoughtful and nuanced video comparing the two styles :)

[@ianbeale5980]

using those olympic algorithms i see

[@JUDE-fn3ee]

Skalls got the same right as any to cash in on the Olympics! Shads been doing it :3

[@bradolfpittler2875]

It's actually not a bad thing.

[@ianbeale5980]

@@bradolfpittler2875 you've stolen your name from me.. i hope your happy

[@d-drizzle]

You've helped me through my first brake up... now my second thanks for helping keep my mind off things

[@giggityguy]

I'm totally with you on the lightsaber thing. If you can cut with just a touch and every edge is the cutting edge, then pretty much all of conventional swordplay is unnecessary. Everything with body mechanics that help you generate rotation and maintain edge alignment is completely redundant, so lightsaber fighting should really bear no resemblance to conventional swordfighting, if you want to be most efficient. I suppose in their defense, lightsaber combat evolved out of a tradition of actual sword combat, so maybe some of the forms are still based on that even though it's not strictly relevant. But I mean, if rapier/smallsword fencing and even sport fencing evolved out of longswords in about 500 years in our world, and the lightsaber replaced the sword over 1000 years ago in the Star Wars universe, you would think that at least SOME Jedi or Sith would have a more modern style.

[@wyrden3222]

As someone doing sport fencing or olympic fencing, I can only agree to what Skall says in this video. Olympic Fencing is totally trying to be fast and not powerful, as a hit is a point no matter how much power it has, very different to an actual martial art. This allows for this very fast sport that it is. However one thing I do have to criticize about Olympic Fencing is, that in Foil and Saber fencing you relinquish most of your defense as soon as you gain the right of attack (when first to start an attack or when the opponent failed an attack you get the point, even if both parties hit). This makes it stray further from an actual duel than the hit equals point rule. Anyway, great video, interesting points and I love the Olympic Fencing=Lightsaber fencing analogy xD

[@mattbowden4996]

But right of way comes from historical smallsword training, where it's purpose was to instill good practice in students - don't counterattack your opponent until you have done something to defend against their attack. Double hits mean you got hit, therefore you lose...

[@52vepr]

@@mattbowden4996 Yes, exactly. Charging toward someone who's pointing a sword at you is essentially suicidal. The idea of right of way is to make you more cautious and aware.

[@wyrden3222]

@Matt Bowden @Garry Buck Well, while yes, you need to be careful when counterattacking or being in defense, quite the opposite is true for when attacking or at the start of a duel, when both parties just run into each other because whoever first starts his attack will get the advantage, no matter whether he gets hit in the process. When comparing this to Epee where this rule does not exist, both parties are way more careful, because a doublehit will always mean a point for both, which does not progress yourself so you always try to hit alone, which includes having to defend oneself and being cautious to get the right timing. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages, but overall I feel like the right of attack makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

[@MrJakedog104]

I'd be so much more interested in Olympic longsword or sword and buckler. I do think that the quality of a hit should be considered when scoring. Simply touching your opponent would not be enough to end a fight. Fencing is fighting after all, and even in other Olympic fighting events, hit quality is considered. Boxers don't win the round when they land their first jab.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

We had this in modern saber but the system was problematic for thrusts. The FIE is looking into developing a smart saber that can detect proper edge alignment and force for cuts. It's complicated. What about detecting blade on blade slices to the neck area which wouldn't be so important to the torso or distinguishing between a snap cut to the belly or to the fingers? It's hard. the only real solution is to get some rich dudes to pay us to fight with sharp duelling sabers like it was done about 130 years ago and make a sort of blood sport based on the duelling codes.

[@MrJakedog104]

@@esgrimaxativa5175 I've seen longsword competitions where there are several judges at the corners of the ring that vote on the hit as they saw it. The only aspect that would be difficult to judge with that would be edge alignment. It's not perfect, but it seems to work pretty well. You can see it if you look up the fightcamp videos. The idea of smart sabers is interesting, and maybe if the Olympics are able to develop the technology, it would be cool to see this implemented with other swords as well

[@bigmoz9900]

No, olympic boxes win the round on points, KOs dont even count as wins. The quality of a hit as far as olympic fencing is concerned is measured as far as it can and should be with quantative, objective measures. The epee requires the 750 grams required to break skin, the foil the 500 grams to make a point darret stick. Sabre is the outlier bc they havent invented a good electrification system yet.

[@SpiralCody]

Great discussion Skall!!

[@emavaz18]

This reminds me of what my friend told me about what happened to taekwondo. He's from South Korea so he got taught the original version, but when he came to America he saw that everybody was doing the Olympic version. By his account the taekwondo he learned what's much more focus on brutality and efficiency rather than performative acrobatics and making contact for scoring a point. I feel like whatever martial art the Olympic committees touch, gets watered down into a useless "kid friendly" activity.

[@sadlytemporary4143]

useless activity is really long way to spell 'sport.' olympic style fencing and Taekwondo are essentially games for scoring points and performing athletic feats. It hasn't killed HEMA, and I bet there are plenty of people still learning traditional, martial taekwondo. The fact that games are more popular than their violent counterparts has less to do with the olympics, and more to do with the fact that people want to compete in things that are less likely to do lasting damage. And the safer and more consistent sparring becomes in any martial art, the more it starts to look like a game, like modern olympic taekwondo

[@r.matthews594]

I very much enjoyed this video. My first armed martial art was Olympic fencing, saber, actually. And latter being in HEMA, it is a very different sport, a very different game. What is most annoying is when a HEMA practitioner starts talking about "combat effectiveness". They're both sports and hobbies, at least in the US, combat effectiveness means firearms.

[@blackpowderkun]

Fencing in Star wars is Form 2 Makashi

[@NoBaconForYou]

Never thought of Olympic fencing being fit for lightsaber combat, but that makes perfect sense.

[@matthijscalje4143]

Now this I'm excited for! I practice Olympic fencing so I'm curious what he has to say

[@vladimpaler5834]

That exists in any martial art that can be performed in Olympic competitions. For example, the Karate used in Olympic competitions depends more on speed and agility, just touching your opponent to score points, while observing the timer and winning the match without harming him or yourself. While in a real fight that does not work, you will have to use completely different techniques to finish your opponent with smashing kicks or punches, in the shortest time, no matter what damage you will cause to him.

[@JETWTF]

Allot of the Olympic fencing snipe cuts could work perfectly fine in historical duels. If the duel is to first blood then the snipe cuts would be vastly superior, the goal is to draw blood not chop an arm off. If it is to the death the snipe cuts can serve a purpose that's not "death by a thousand cuts". The more you snipe cuts the more angry your opponent will become and vastly increase the chance that they will make a fatal mistake so snipe when allowed to do so without getting threatened would be highly beneficial.

[@brijekavervix7340]

Not to mention, a 'snipe' to the neck is probably gonna incapacitate someone pretty quickly too given all the important bits there...

[@erykczajkowski8226]

Just wear some thicker clothes and you can get 'sniped' all day long. Not to mention that you will be making a counter attack after those 'snipes'.

[@JETWTF]

@@erykczajkowski8226 There's always a counter to everything, just wear a full suit of plate armor and you can ignore committed cuts all day long. Yes a counter to committed cuts that would remove a limb. Not everyone is going to do a duel in armor and not everyone is going to be wearing thick clothing. If they are wearing casual attire in the summer heat then sniping them would work to draw first blood. But no matter their protection allot of annoying taps is going to piss them off even if it doesn't hurt so armor doesn't matter in that regard. As for retaliatory strikes... Duh. Every attack you make gets them is expected. And at the start of a fight with an unknown opponent it is common for quick non committed attacks to test their abilities. No reason to stop doing them if it can draw them to anger and making a mistake as anyone that's angry will do. Perfect be all and end all tactic? Nope. But could be beneficial under the right circumstances and another tool in your toolbox you can use when it fits. I never said every and all fights nor anything about can it be countered.

[@yowatup9329]

Yo! I was a foil and saber fencer back in high school and early college. I was also into martial arts (Win Chun / JKD). In my opinion, you cannot compare sport fencing with HEMA or any martial arts. It's like comparing TKD with Krav Mega. One is a sport where nobody get hurt and the other is full on pain and more detrimental. Love your content!

[@tarasaka]

TL;DR Physicist's comment: momentum and kinetic energy are too closely tied together to be considered separately, like Skall does, i.e. you can't really increase one significantly whilst keeping the other really low. So, as mentioned in other comments here, it's more about the other three factors: 1) During a cut the blade has some amount of angular momentum, which it will be robbed of by the opposing torque (the resistance of the target during the actual contact, times the distance from the point of contact to the hand gripping the sword). So in general for the same resistive force ("quality" of the target, the type of protection it features) a cut with the tip will be stopped faster AND it will provide significantly larger torque, which the attacker will feel as the "destabilizing" action on the blade. Exactly like having a spanner with a longer handle: a gentle push on the tip yields a huge amount of force on the nut. 2) The first argument is perfectly valid only for an ideal rigid sword which can transfer torque without any loss from the tip to the pivot. A nimble sword isn't that rigid: the longer is the distance to the point of contact during the cut, the more will the blade absorb the impact, once again robbing the fencer of that "stability" feel during the strike, and moreover, once the elastic nature of the sword is considered, the rebounding action of it will provide further unwanted effects such as vibrations of all sorts. 3) Even the two arguments combined do not provide the full picture: we're forgetting about the duration of impact, considering the blade to be a projectile, essentially, i.e. something that gains an initial momentum only and is not connected to "source" of energy and torque after it's launch, which isn't true, of course. Once the contact is made, the sword forms a conduit for the fencer to deliver more energy, more impulse towards its target. Imagine that you do not cut, but you gently bring the tip in contact and then start to push as hard as you can: given enough time you'll do more damage then with a single strike (an example from real life would be slicing a very thick wheel of cheese: chopping doesn't really help, whereas a long steady push does). Problem is, when we cut in fencing (in genereal) we do not have that much time, but in all the time we do have our goal is to deliver as much additional push as possible. Here's where the rigidity of the blade plays a crucial role again: it's much easier to push with a steadier, sturdier blade, and that's why a cut with the middle of the sword feels much cleaner. The tip, on the other hand, not only provides higher torque on our hand, it's also quite far so the bend of the blade doesn't provide a reliable enough transfer of our force into the target. So, yeah, in case you're aiming at the largest peak force for the shortest amount of time - go for the tip, but if you need to consistently deliver a significant amount of force into the target - midblade is your choice. May the physics be with you, guys.

[@JUDE-fn3ee]

Gods damn the skallagtites reign supreme - first two views. P.s. where in hells teeth is gym skall

[@ianbeale5980]

the real Gs

[@keithallardice6139]

Interesting, entertaining, thought-provoking and inclusive/encouraging tolerance and respect ... I like this! Cheers Skal

[@ianstiehl1994]

So, slight expansion of/correction to Skall's explanation if kinetic energy vs momentum: For kinetic energy, picture a bullet hitting a steel plate. The peak force that plate experiences is the kinetic energy. This is why KE is very important for bullets. They don't kill by cutting. They kill by dumping a metric fuck ton of energy into a body -- causing cavitation, and creating a wound channel. Momentum is the amount of mass moving at a particular speed. It can be thought of as more akin to inertia, or, more simply: How much an object in motion wants to keep moving through resistance. This is extremely important for cutting. Arrows, for example, depend MUCH more on momentum than KE (despite bow manufacturers constantly touting KE numbers). Another example: If I hit you with a truck at 1 mph, you wouldn't experience a huge amount of kinetic energy, but the sheer momentum would cause the truck to keep moving...with you now on the hood. Big Bertha don't wanna stop for no man. On the other hand, I could take a grain of sand and accelerate it to some stupid velocity, where it's have the KE to rip your hand apart. But if I stood you 30 yards away...with how little momentum it'd have, air resistance and compression would slow the projectile down tremendously. You might not even feel it hit. It wouldn't have enough momentum to wanna keep moving through resistance. Mind you, this doesn't mean that thing like tip velocity are irrelevant. Take, for example, the difference between a khukuri and a machete for chopping light twigs. I have an excellent Kailash pensioner khukuri. Yet I'd rather use a $30 machete if I'm chopping light, springy brush all day. The thicker khukuri has more momentum, but it swings more slowly -- wanting to push aside light, springy stuff, more than a light, agile machete would. Of course this all also relates to things like edge geometry, blade springiness, weight distribution, etc. as well. But independent of all that, this should help people understand the difference.

[@felldin]

Isn't saber fencing the easiest to get information on? We got plenty of manuals in sweden from the military. My favorite is 'Instruktion i sabelfäktning till fots' from 1893.

[@johndododoe1411]

Interesting, wonder how many semi-modern manuals have been picked up by the wider HEMA community, as they often mention a complete lack of manuals for military or battlefield tactics.

[@jaxirraywhisper741]

As a HEMA practicioner I have enormous repsect for olympic fencers. Anyone who does critize them should ask themselves "Am I as fit as sport fencer? Am I as fast? Can I run as fast and as much as they do when they are trianing? Are my reflexes on par with theirs?" Most likely not. Olympic fencing is more exhausting and requires much more physigue considering it is AN OLYMPIC SPORT then most of what "hema" experts on the internet practice in their free time. Would the olympic fencing work on the battlefield in the history? No. That doesnt mean olympic fencer cannot teach the HEMA aswell and if such individual does, make no mistake random hema nerd, he would beat you.

[@ProductBasement]

They need to change the rules to make sure people are getting sufficient contact in sabre, epee, and foil, and hitting with the "sharp" edge in sabre. Fencing is a case study (literally, read _Algorithms to Live By_ ) in "overfitting", where the scoring system is so myopic that people are incentivized to hack the scoring system rather than learn the techniques that the scoring system is supposedly designed to evaluate

[@cujotwentysix7519]

Well on foil and epée the weapon will only register a hit after more than a certain amount of force is applied in any case It's only in sabre where light ANY contact at all will count as a hit.

[@frenchgalloglass5204]

@@cujotwentysix7519 yes, but the shape and mechanics of the blades in epee and foil allow some techniques that wouldn't be possible with a real sword (even a smallsword) such as the flick for example, and people are using these techniques to win, so ProductBasement's statement still stands. That doesn't mean modern fencing isn't cool, it is really cool ! But the scoring system made the practice evolve from a martial arts to a competitive sport where scoring is more important than the effectiveness/realistic aspect of the strikes. Let's all just hope HEMA never takes this path, so that we can keep both practices alive separately :)

[@william_sun]

Olympic fencing is not a martial art, and there's no reason to treat it as a martial art. Let sports be sports, and let martial arts be martial arts. Both have their merits, and I don't think it makes sense for either one to impose their own values on the other.

[@ProductBasement]

@@william_sun Fencing was a martial art originally

[@william_sun]

@@ProductBasement Modern fencing is a sport based on the martial art of classical fencing. At no point in time was it itself a martial art.

[@blackdragon5274]

I thought you said a gopher at a mini golf course, and imagined a gopher freaking out that they're plugging perfectly good holes with balls.

[@Maxawa0851]

him: explaining things well everyone: haha sword go swoosh

[@morgankuikka4940]

"Whats to understand about swish swish stab, its a sword not a fucking fighter jet."

[@Matoro828]

Hayden Christianson, Ewan McGregor, Alec Guinness, and David Prowse (earth Vader) we’re all trained on saber fencing. You can really see it in Episode 4 where Alec Guinness uses several saber techniques in his fight with Darth Vader.

[@wonderfulsloth4239]

God that shpeil about body mechanics is just *chefs kiss*

[@Jaggaraz218]

Coming from HEMA perspective complaining about Olympic fencing not "working in real life/not being realistic sword fighting" is more justified when you take in account that Olympic fencing gets way more media attention and funding which then results in a lot of people having a false idea on swordsmanship.

[@Densoro]

Exactly, writing all their fight scenes based on it, etc

[@onevision2203]

also sport fencers are very often rude and overconfident - laughing or trying to teach us how to fight with swords while in fact they poke each other with antennas and we are fighting with swords. We can teach them and not vice versa.

[@TiagoBarufi]

Fortunately very few people have a true understanding of realistic swordsmanship these days - even HEMA practitioners. It relates to the fact no one needs to slash through people. That would be against the law almost anywhere. Both activities have their merit regarding history and exercise, indeed.

[@custer3176]

@@onevision2203 I feel like more often the hema-practitioners are more rude and overconfident. So much that it was talked about in this video.

[@thejapanarchocommunist]

Well in fairness in real life you'll never encounter a swordsman, so both HEMA and fencing should be enjoyed for what they are, which is predominantly sporting competition, and less of a serious form of self defense

[@pdxgearcon]

Thanks for this. I've been thinking about the role of point slashes in cut-&-thrust spectrum HEMA and these illustrations are a help.

[@V薇]

And I checked the weight… the weight of the Saber's blade which is used for sport is around 100 gram, even though the total weight is 500g. So yeah, that's why sport fencers can just use their fingers to hit and control. I wouldn't even call that as "landing a hit" but just touch a target. My purpose of learning martial arts in swords is to be able to actually fight in real life. So fencing is not my thing, and I'll explain why down below. I just tried out saber fencing (sport) today. And with Kendo technique carved in my body, everything feels off. I thought it's because they are different sports. Well, to some degree, that is correct. As I learned and THINK why each movement is performed this way, I'm getting the idea that fencing (sport) fence this way is because the blade is extremely light. Also, only hit matters. It doesn't matter if it's affective or not. Light hit, strong hit are all the same, as long as you have the right-of-way (attack priority). Time is money…… I mean scoring point. So the althelet minimize the atack movement. One thing I also noticed is the beginning stance. For the mid-stance in Kendo, the tip of the blade is point to opponent's neck. So you can either thrust into their throat, or to attack/defend other parts of body fast (cause it's "MID" stance). But for fencing sport? The tip of the blade is aiming to opponent's eyes. The coach said it's to give mental pressure to the opponent, plus give you an advantage to attack their head (cause the position of the blade is closer to the head, compared with aiming to the throat). Another thing is footwork. In fencing sport, their feet is in exactly 90 degree, while in Kendo, I'm taught to open the back foot slightly, so it's a bit less than 90 degree. This result in a very different experience. The fencing coach said open in 90 degree will give you more burst power to move forward, but it feels unnatural to me. Granted, it could be that I'm used to Kendo technique and also because I'm not familiar with fencing yet. But I really don't feel that standing in Kendo's method will give less burst power. In fact, fencing's method make me feel that my feet, especially the back foot, is locked to the ground. Plus, harder to balance with feet in 90 degree. I think having the feet in 90 degree is because you only move straight forward or backward. I searched on the Internet, and people said fencing in a narrow strip for sport is similar to fighting in a long narrow alley. But that doesn't justify the reason to spread open your feet in exactly 90 degree. It only restrict your movement. You can't easily turned/dodge sideways with that feet position. Nor is it easy to bend your body to dodge or jump up to avoid attacks. So, yeah. The fencing coach taught everything right for the game. The technique is score oriented (actually, its same for Kendo, but more realistic in my opinion). So if I were to use what I learned in real fight, Kendo taught me better.🤔 But I really like the idea of fighting in fencing (sport) style in lightsaber. Give me a different way to look at it. I may consider learning fencing if I want to fight like a warrior with lightsaber in the future.😊 Right now I want to focus on real swords, or authentic swords with dull blades.

[@Orcus__]

there's a serious lack of pommel throwing in Olympic fencing

[@Rancorous_Redwood]

My wife does Olympic fencing and I do HEMA, and when we talk through the strategies of our sparring, these different constraints always make for an interesting conversation. Also, I'm rather sure that I would never be able to score a point on a fencer by their rules. I've been too harshly punished too many times to try most of the things the fencer was showing as good technique. That strike from under someone's guard? My shoulder and neck still remember how it felt to learn what a bad idea that is.

[@zubetube7111]

Hey, I know you said you weren’t really gonna be doing any gaming videos anymore, but Blade & Sorcery, a VR game you played about 2 years ago has and will be receiving a lot of updates, and has changed quite a bit. It’d be interesting to see your take on it, in terms of realism with the new weapons, how the AI behave, and stuff like that. They’ve added a bunch of Armor to the game that the NPCs use, and have generally changed a lot.

[@voodooozo3755]

Tbh I always hated olimpic fencing. I felt like it doesnt have to do anything with actual fencing other than moving your feet properly. The idea of olympic fencing is just to touch enemy with the tip of your """rapier""" (lmao) while normal fencing is abiut doing actual cuts and attacks that would hurt the enemy not just scratch them at best.

[@mp1758]

Well yeah of course they don't try to hurt each other it is still a sport not a fight for your life

[@voodooozo3755]

@@mp1758 what about kendo then? It is sport that relies much more on doing actual moves. It's just isnt as popular as Olympic fencing.

[@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268]

@@voodooozo3755 Olympic fencing is basically really diluted hema

[@mattbowden4996]

Speaking from experience, because I have done both Sport Sabre and Historical Sabre, the two actually have much in common. The difference is - as Skal correctly points out - that sport sabre is entirely optimized towards speed, but the basic moves are all fundamentally the same.

[@mewmanc6188]

Fascinating video topic! Love these comparisons of modern day vs historical examples.

[@MizanQistina]

What I find weird with Olympic fencing the overly bend blade, it kind of funny because it become kind of like whip. The way I see it, the fight become ridiculous and it just luck because the pointy end could just hit anywhere anytime without both fighters realizing it, too fast for our eyes to see it, if not because of the digital technology nobody would know who hit. That's why I wonder if it is western traditional way of sword fighting or modern creation to suite certain sport rules.

[@kamikaze5528]

I am a fencer. Almost all you said is wrong. It's almost whip-like, yes, but you CAN manipulate the blade so it bends the way you want so it touches during a bend. It is a move. And it's only too fast for the untrained eye. If you get used to it, you can see very easily. So much so that it's the referee who awards the point, even with the machine there to help. But yeah, it's a sport. Much of what Skall said doesn't really apply because we are not trying to kill out opponents, just touch them with the blade. It is based on duels to the first blood, so there was no need to go all out. A small wound would suffice.

[@MizanQistina]

@@kamikaze5528 I am referring to this video titled "Sports Explainer: The classic fencing weapon, the 'foil'", for me the way the foil bend to hit target isn't something intended, I mean it could bend other way or anywhere, how could a human estimate where the pointy end go to hit the target? That's why I said it is luck, it goes into chances territory, a gamble. Like you said, maybe I am wrong, but don't tell me you purposely making your move to hit your target as where the pointy end go on your opponent body, I won't believe that.

[@kamikaze5528]

@@MizanQistina The way the weapons are built, they are meant to bend in a certain direction. If you bend them the other way the blade might break, even. You can know how much they bend based on how you flick it, and it does require some technique to pull it off, it's not that easy. And different quality affects how bendy are the blades. Good quality ones bend more. So it depends on both the blade and the athlete. A novice wouldn't do it regularly, an Olympic athlete can pull it off easily.

[@andrewli6606]

@@MizanQistina actually, the fencing flick is a pretty established technique that is done intentionally as a technique. It takes advantage of the flexible blade to whip around the opponent’s parry. It can be countered, but it is part of a fencers toolkit to score points. The exact same discussion arose historically on whether it should be allowed because it’s obviously unrealistic, but ultimately it was allowed because fencing had become a sport. In the same way, health kits in shooting games are unrealistic, but exist to improve the game.

[@MizanQistina]

So it is not a sword fighting anymore, not fencing, it is a new thing. The weapon and the techniques are no longer for swords because of it behave in different way and must use a certain techniques for it. China also have a bending and wobbling "sword" and "spear", only for Wushu show because it is unpractical, we can only see it being used in fantasy Kung Fu movies. The purpose for the creation of the sword is to show how skillful the blacksmith is in playing with metals.

[@rahu9125]

I think for blade cutting one should use angular momentum and momentum of Inertia to describe the energy of cutting. Since when doing the cut you are actually wielding a "rigid body", which makes it spin. And in this case it's not exactly the same as considering a rigid body doing translation because you have to take into account the effect of leverage. So even the far end of the blade has the fastest linear speed, it does not mean it would deliver the highest energy. On the contrary it might give you more resistance and makes it harder to cut.

[@lkalaschnikow]

Olympic fencing is in the same position as judo, it is a sport, based on historical martial arts but modernised to make it more of a sport and less of a martial art.

[@mp1758]

I feel like its similar to Archery it has long historic roots but drastically changed over time to increase for example the safety of the athletes

[@noma6450]

ty skal this was very interesting and i like the white background, nice and clean

[@nyan2317]

Imagine if a HEMA practitioner learned Olympic Fencing footwork.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

Imagine if a USFA A rated sport fencer with international experience learned HEMA. That's me.

[@marcelosilveira2276]

16:25 Makashi, or Form II (Count Dokuu's fighting style) is inspired from olympic fencing, and it is the to-go method for dueling against other lightsabers (it fell out of pratice because the last sith was believed to be dead a millenia before episode 1). Just for the sake of curiosity, Form I, the "basic" lightsaber style, which padawans are taught before they are allowed to chose a style to specialize on, is based on kendo and Forms III to VI (the most seen in the prequels) are all taken from kung-fu, with Form VII, the sith exclusive form, that revolves around letting your anger guide you, is basically using lightsabers as baseball bats after seen a zombie movie with no pratice at using it as a weapon at all

[@MissingTheMark]

Just hacking vegetation with a machete (where your goal is to get rid of the vegetation because you want it gone), you really don't want to hit with just the tip. (Though with vegetation, you also want to cut in such a way that you pull the vegation away from its achor point with the cut, rather than push it perpendicular; I don't know if there's an analog in cutting people.)

[@scottnieradka6836]

But you do use a two finger pinch grip and a machete works more by speed than force, so there are some analogs to a sabre here.

[@temptempy1360]

The hand grip tighten is slightly different for heavier weapons (it also has a slightly more "tennis racket/knuckle alignment and involves the wrist slightly). it brings the energy arc into a tighter circle (more like an ellipse) and changes the moment on the cutting mass from a "swinging circle" into a "driving line". It can be compared to a hobby baseball playing swinging the bat in a full circle, to the shorter power strike against the ball that a pro uses. If you think about the two-handed swords how you can increase the penetration of a blow by not "clubbing" at your target, put slightly pointing and preceeding the lead hand and halting/pulling the rear hand, to bring the power "into" the cut. Do this with basic cheap blades or sticks and the extra moment at point of impact will destroy the blade. It creates a huge amount of force. I learnt by using 25mm "alkathene" plastic pipe. Timing is important, as is body movement, where often the "Olympic style" is done from near standing-stop; so this technique is helpful rather than devastating.

[@tinytitanmc1276]

Everyone gangsta til skall gestures to a sword with another sword

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

the one thing I think the video slightly overlooks is that there is also a bit you can do with your body, a "heavy blow" in olympic style fencing would probably be something that involves more footwork then shown here, the "flunge" where the whole body is used I imagine would certainly qualify as a "heavy blow"