MONKS ARE UNDISPUTABLY BROKEN AND THIS IS WHY | AoE2

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[@--SPQR--]

Monks are overpowered *Vululu Vululu* Monks are underpowered

[@Ryan-mw9pm]

😂

[@vario6492]

Amen

[@rovsea-3761]

The other thing pushing monks right now is the speed of play in AoE2. People are going up to feudal and castle age faster than ever, on both closed and open maps, due to better build orders, better ability to defend in feudal age, and a priority being put on early food income. Given this, players will tend to have fewer units in feudal age and early castle age than they would've had at those stages of the game in previous metas, simply due to not having as much time to mass units. Someone might end up having a crossbow ball of 15 in early castle age these days instead of 25 because it's easier for them to defend at home and get up earlier, before they can build those numbers up. When the amount of units on the field is low, the most micro intensive unit, the monk, suddenly becomes stronger because the micro needed to make him effective becomes proportionally more powerful.

[@ThatDanmGuy]

Since we're speaking about what happens in practice rather than in theory... when you convert a unit, it's usually surrounded by enemies. A converted knight has a good chance of getting out alive to be healed, but a converted mangonel almost always goes down immediately without giving any value, so functionally a mangonel conversion is usually a 195 res value, not a 390 res value.

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

except for when the mangonel gets to fire off an out-of-left-field volley at the opponent's army, I guess

[@kgperu728]

@user-sl6gn1ss8p Since the aggressor usually pushes with several mangonels, the converted mangonel can often take out another mangonel. There was a Yo vs Tatoh game where a converted mango took out 4 others

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

@@kgperu728which compounds with the random factor to make conversions even more swingy

[@moon2schyzo]

Thats not how it works. You convert a mangonel and get to shoot with it - the swing has already happend. If enemy has to pull army from engagement or fire a mangonel at your newly aquired mangonel that only means he has to prioritize killing something you shouldnt even have and will likely sustain other loses because of that. Converted mangonels often flatten armies or other mangonels because players cant avoid it like they would slowly approaching enemy mangonel..if anything its even bigger swing of momentum than the theory suggests. Crazy clown defender.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

Usually u can convert a knight then run it back instantly. A pro using monks is currently disgusting

[@changyanwang1625]

Drinking game: take a drink every time Hera says “monks” in this video

[@phirephate]

Only if I can space those out over a year.

[@EugeneOneguine]

@@phirephate I'll still drink more than I usually do if I space it out over a year 1111

[@najarvis]

You would die

[@BirdMoose]

A lot of changes are needed, but anti-monk techs especially need to be made cheaper. It's crazy that buffing monks costs 200 resources, but providing defense against them costs 1200

[@Appletank8]

Maybe the values should be reversed somewhat? Monk upgrades more expensive, Anti-Monk upgrades cheaper.

[@voidgods]

I don't think there's a need to add mechanics on top of mechanics. An easier and smarter solution is to just make units have "hidden resistance" vs monks so devs can fine tune balance around monks vs individual units. Monks are not generally broken. They thrive in knight meta and that's it. They are a counter to BBC and onagers in late game and that's it. As hera pointed out, nothing changed in regards to monks, but rather in what units are dominant in the mid game. Nerfing monks in general is a lazy fix that will then need to be reverted if the meta ever goes back to xbows.

[@tomassmith2088]

One idea i saw was great is 2 upgrades for faith One in castle age, one in imp, split the cost

[@slungellife]

@@tomassmith2088 Let faith be the caste age tech and call the Imp tech Faith+1

[@Skyace13]

I’m happy they changed the charging conversion against buildings at least

[@yahm0n]

Yeah, it is a good way to go about it. Monks are not OP at low level play, and they are OP at high level play, so nerfing the high level techniques is an obvious strategy to dealing with the problem.

[@kpep588]

They should also change target switching between units in the same way. I don't think this will chance a lot, but its a nice beginning.

[@yahm0n]

I hope they still let you switch between buildings. I like to do that to throw people off when they try to delete. I wish they would make it so a unit can't be deleted while it is being converted.

[@quetzalcoatl4255]

I think its reasonable to have AoE II's only real caster unit with a higher skill requirement be slightly overpowered. Even though Heresy and Faith are very expensive and rarely researched, they are a really uninspired way of countering monks. Once its researched monks pretty much become useless for the enemy and if it were any cheaper it'd really show. I think it would be worth thinking of more creative ways to counter monks. - Remove/Change Atonement and make monks immune to conversion. This would prevent monks being the best counter to monks and stop the chain reaction problem that can happen at high levels - Conversions happen when a progress bar fills up instead of being random. Units that are being converted can't be deleted. - Monasteries (maybe even Universities as well) provide conversion resistance/immunity in a radius (possible upgrade/replacement to Atonement) - Buff crossbow Basically don't let there be a braindead option of 'just research the new cheap heresy/faith and monks are irrelevant now' as that would be even more unfun. Imagine if there was an upgrade that made any other unit completely useless.

[@Mattroid99]

Making monaseries yourself to provide conversion resistance is kinda dumb. Why asking the guy who is pushnig to commit even more to forward production compared to who is defending? Especially for mobile units like knights is just an awful idea Crossbows are already one of the most broken units in the game, they don't need improvements. Cheap yet strong powerspikes, ease of micro and massive flexibility is more than enough and when they were stronger the meta was just crossbow. l only agree with the conversion fillup bar, that could make the system a lot more consistent with the current average coversion time. Heresy doesn't destroy Monk play, most of the time you still get big value even if the coverted unit dies (A dead knight is a 35 res gain, and the opponent still loses army. Destroyed Mangonel is a 195 res gain even with Heresy!). It should be around 800 gold imo Faith shuts down monk play but is just too overpriced even vs opponents that already researched all Monk techs, since those very likely already got great value. It should be around 1.2k res imo (Like 800 gold 400 food?) Monks techs should be more expensive anyways though, even if Faith was that much cheaper all these techs already pay for themselves in the meantime. And Monks still get value in healing and relic control, so is not like they become dead weight.

[@mustahsinulmoula9035]

Main Problem is Monestary techs, they are so cheap , and strangely anti monk techs are overly priced. Some basic nerfs could be done: 1. Monk range reduced by 1 , and Block printing tech gives +4 range with +200/300 gold increase 2. Redemption should only give access to Siege conversion (475 -> 500G, with increased researched time) 3. In Imp, give a new tech after Redemption that allows to convert building (500G) 4. Overall minimum conversion time increases by 1/2 second

[@Balazs-R]

A single nerf: make it visible to the opponent which unit you are trying to convert.

[@RAMMY237]

I don't like this idea :) there's a bunch of other stuff that can nerf monks without touching this particular detail.

[@injest1928]

I think the problem with monks is due to their insane micro needs, this means they can be way underpowered for new players and way overpowered for top players. I wonder if a solution could be a cost increase along with an auto convert option if the monk is standing still, similar to the way they heal units.

[@Endrosz]

IMO the core of the problem is that in AoE2, ability range gives you automagically VISION RANGE as well. If monks would behave like siege tanks in Starcraft, i.e. they get a long-range ability WITHOUT long-range vision, that means they need a spotter to start and finish conversions (conversions would stop when you move out of vision range). This is not how AoE2 works, but I think this is a serious shortcoming compared SC2 and other RTSes.

[@RAMMY237]

good point, I don't dislike it :)

[@paulh462]

And for some reason a Canadian pro player did not rank monks as the most powerfull units in his tierlists.

[@acsadcasdfafds6064]

He's arrabbbb

[@slungellife]

@@acsadcasdfafds6064 Does that make him not Canadian?

[@flyingsteaks]

I think nerfing monk techs and buffing faith/heresy would be very interesting. Also I wish they'd change how conversion works, make it non RNG, like a fixed 6 seconds (or whatever value), and then units could have "monk armor" where each point of armor adds 1 sec to conversion cast time (like teutons bonus could be +1/+2 monk armor for all your units so you know it would always take X seconds), faith could give all yours units like +2 monk armor and scouts/eagles could have base 1/2 monk armor (again, throwing values out there, not sure what would be best)

[@atlallthetime8193]

You are absolutely right Hera. It’s lame. It’s not that we can’t do it, it’s just that it make the game less fun.

[@MorleyGames1]

I can’t do it. I’m terrible with monk micro

[@voidgods]

I wouldn't call it lame, it should be a viable strategy like any other. It just needs to be balanced. One way to balance it is create a "conversion resistance armor" that changes based the unit, so different units are converted at different rates

[@why_wait]

They have nerfed them in the next patch - 1 second delay and no swapping between targets. Rest is still the same but will make some difference

[@voidgods]

@@why_wait nah, that's not really a nerf but more of a fix to an abusive mechanic - spamming conversion on vills that were building something would cause them to run so 1 monk could basically deny a castle. Now you can't switch targets as often but their main issue (too big of a swing for too cheap of a unit) remains

[@why_wait]

@@voidgods that is still the definition of a nerf my man.

[@mcmudkipp]

Making the anti monk techs cheaper are an easy start, but to a mechanic change like starting/maintaining a conversion utilises some faith that has to be recharged to 100 before you can try another conversion attempt seems like it may work if they did that.

[@gebhard128]

I believe one factor we can put in it is that since DE came out we got no new civ that depends on arbalest, there are few with really competetive arbalest but most of the new civs excell on cavalry and infantry, so the biggest counter to cav, the monk, is far often seen and the counter of the best option many civs can get

[@floppa9415]

This feels like the AUG / Krieg Meta in CS:GO where a tiny change made Pros realize how OP these guns which opened the floodgates and nerfs had to be made to reign in the meta.

[@DragonflyCis]

Now is when Militia could be super resistent to monks so now they can see some play?

[@faruksarihan]

We were so close to getting elephant monks (that can convert castles), now they'll never do that. 😢

[@voidgods]

I think the best and easiest way to balance it is creating a hidden "conversion resistance armor" per unit, just like Skirms do different damage to Halbs and Archers. That way monks don't even need to be nerfed, but they can be made better or worse vs different units, and actually make them more fun to use and play against. For example, trash units have very little resistance and get converted fast, while expensive or key units like knights and mangonels are more resistant. This can even help design better monk techs or civ bonuses. It is simply a net positive.

[@why_wait]

I think Devs wanted some armies to rely on monks as a main strong point problem is that all armies seem to have strong monks. My suggestion is that for all non monk oriented civs they need to decrease the base range of monks to be less effective I e. Only 7 tiles. Allowing archers to be fairly competitive still against most monk play

[@voidgods]

@@why_wait again, a general nerf to all monks is not a good solution, it will create more problems. Xbows are already a counter even to 9 range monks, because monks converting 1 cheap xbow means nothing. Monks are only good vs high cost units and siege, which is fine. Simply give units resistance based on how unfair it is to have them converted. Make knights more resistant so monks can still be used but it would be way more risky (you might lose your monk and not get a conversion). Maybe rework the conversion mechanics to no longer be RNG within a range, but a flat timer that can the be modified by each unit individual resistance, so you know exactly how close you are to getting converted. Force enemies to use 2 monks per unit if they want to guarantee a conversion faster, so the resource swing is not as big. There are ways to change how conversion works without nerfing a unit that has existed just fine for 25 years.

[@Wannabepirate]

I think monks need the following tweaks: 1. Increased base conversion time 2. Trash units should have resistance to conversion which is less than that of light cav 3. Converting buildings takes 30% longer 4. Reduce price of anti monk techs

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

I think Daut proposed monks starting with empty faith (an/or possibly conversion being put behind an upgrade), and garrisoning (or ungarrisoning) should probably consume some faith (it can even make sense thematically, as the monk is wavering). I think it would probably be best to go for these kinds of changes first, and then adjust through the cost of upgrades and/or stats if/as needed.

[@ashley-paul]

Monks converted with atonement shouldn't have faith for sure. Also, I think charging between target types should be stopped. It makes sense if you're charging against a knight and you switch to another knight that you should be able to continue using your conversion, but you shouldn't be able to charge on a building and then convert a unit.

[@0oShwavyo0]

@@ashley-paulI don’t think the charging thing is getting changed any time soon, I imagine that is a game engine level issue that could take significant effort to re-work without introducing bugs or other unintended behavior.

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

@@0oShwavyo0 I think it just got changed this last patch : )

[@0oShwavyo0]

@@user-sl6gn1ss8p well I should keep my damn mouth shut 😅

[@ashley-paul]

@@0oShwavyo0 They're removing that monk charging mechanic in the new patch, though.

[@FefeLeVrai]

- Make the conversion timer always reset when monk moves - Increase minimum conversion time - Siege, War elephants take longer to convert - Monks can no longer garrison in TC

[@PhotonTrooperGaming]

I do not agree with your ideas, but I respect your effort. This question can be easily solved with a higher cost for monks and monks techs. And probably a lower cost for Heresy and Faith (absurdly expensive techs since day 1 of AoE 2)

[@ironbutterfly3701]

That sounds like October patch description

[@hareshneeraj998]

Increase minimum conversion time by 1 second and not garrisoning inside tc are solid changes. That should be enough.

[@tomassmith2088]

I don't see people talking about the last point nearly enough. So many times I see the monk player rightfully about to lose all his monks to light cav only for him to play hop scotch in the tc and not only survive but convert the lc.

[@PhotonTrooperGaming]

@@tomassmith2088 garrisoning is a big advantage for any unit if we look at it. Changing it is too drastic. I would rather see players spending even more gold for monks and having cheaper anti monk techs along with higher anti monk bonuses for light cav, archers and such. I like Hera but his anti-monk campaign needs a "democratic" direction, mostly players do not use monks in a effective way

[@ChrisNihilus]

I personally think Monks need a complete rework so they are far easier to use for low level players and have a skill ceiling so pros can't abuse them. A skill requirement compression if you will. You are going to hate me for what I'm about to say, but I personally think Monks need autoconversions, remove RNG and nerf the time of conversion based on the HP remaining, so full HP units are way harder to convert. A pro will still be able to micro them to select better targets and to judge when a conversion is possible or not based on the HP, but they will be still be somewhat useful in the hands of a noob, and in general they will feel much weaker for the pros and much stronger for the noobs.

[@WinterAlekz]

If they reduced monk conversion range by -1 would that make them balanced?

[@nicholase2868]

It actually might make a big difference, tiny tweaks can do a lot.

[@AlphaSections]

I like monks, they activate my sleeper agents in the enemy army. And the enemy monks expose traitors in mine!

[@iwersonsch5131]

RobbyLava had an idea that, instead of taking 4-10 seconds randomly, conversions could take 4-10 seconds depending on the unit's remaining HP percentage. He also proposed a range nerf, and that units' HP are cut in half upon a conversion

[@iwersonsch5131]

Making them unable to garrison into towers and TCs could be interesting too because of what you described

[@valenting19]

A change I didn't see proposed could be decrease their range from 9 to 8, it makes them worse overall but especially against crossbow and more importantly manganoes

[@Appletank8]

It is a bit weird how Monks seem to be able to shout further than a Scorpion shot can go. If they're supposed to be "Anti-Knight", then maybe they should be much more vulnerable to getting pelted by ranged units.

[@edwardeliasenkvist969]

Monks are... WOLOLOOO ...great and perfectly balanced!

[@pinkod666]

You're right, Hera, these repetitive monk strats are boring and not fun. I think the solution for the monk problem is to increase their conversion time, and to make the anti-monk techs (Faith, Heresy) a lot cheaper, maybe twice as cheap, so they would be a lot more affordable, because Heresy for 1000 gold and Faith for 750 food and 1000 gold are too expensive to research even for a player with pro level economy.

[@MetalKingII]

Monks could also just cost more. 120-150 gold or maybe even a little food. Also the monk upgrades should all probably cost at least twice as much.

[@lafave2555]

Out of the 3 years I've been following the pro scene I think I've seen Faith be researched in tournament maybe 2 or 3 times total, it def needs to be cheaper

[@EugeneOneguine]

Way cheaper than twice as cheap, man. If block printing+atonement+fervor+sanctity is 200 gold each, I want faith to cost 200 food and 200 gold.

[@BillyBlaze6907]

This might make pro matches more balanced, but will completely mess up the game for lower Elos. The only reason not every single 1000-1200 Elo dude is playing Franks and going fast castle into knights is because you can counter them with monks. Hardly anyone has the skill to defend against mass knights with crossbows, infantry or siege. Also, elephant civs will become extremely OP on closed maps.

[@BassRukarioGuerrero]

@@BillyBlaze6907this is how I feel tbh. At my elo, there's always either a frank, a Britton, a mongol or a khmer in all matches with no exception xd and you'd imagine how annoying it'd be to take care of the elephants if monks are nerfed severely.

[@53LIQUID]

Here's an idea, a new cheap castle age monastery tech that needs to be researched before Heresy. This tech refunds you 75% of the resources of any unit or building you lose to a conversion.

[@LcHR21212]

hera just sounds like an upset kid when everyone wont play the game the way he wants

[@r2dad282]

still miss the British longbows--we never see those anymore. Can't devs partially buff them so we can at least see them as an option again?

[@shadovars9477]

Longbowmen are already super annoying to deal with please no

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

It's just that arbs are about the same without needing castles. Lbows don't have any bonuses that set them apart.

[@lafave2555]

I feel like redemption should be split into two separate techs, with one for buildings and one for siege

[@riseALK]

Agreed. One issue though, no more space in the Monastery command panel, without taking up the UU spot 😂

[@grizz6582]

Or make it take 2x longer than the current time.

[@Appletank8]

A lazy option would be to make it a tiered upgrade like other unit upgrades or Blacksmith upgrades. Lvl1 you can convert Siege. Upgrade again to Lvl2 for buildings.

[@riseALK]

@@Appletank8 Good idea

[@Ymgarl]

Here's a list of things that ought to be changed in my mind: increase to conversion times for infantry (maybe the same as scouts), also give spears anti monk bonus damage. Reduction in faith cost. Range in castle reduced by 1. Heresy can stay expensive because that shit is very strong vs. Monks already. Increase mangonel and BBC damage against monks to be 1 hit after sanctity. Introduce new relic and monk behaviours for each civ to change them up: we already have Aztecs, Burgundians, Lithuanians etc. I don't see a reason why we can't have unique bonuses (or weaknesses even) for all monks to make the game more varied. A brutal slashing of available monk techs across the board would go a long way to making monks less viable. It's odd that so many civs get so many techs. Also either prevent monks garrisoning if they were recently attacked or require them to be outside the building for 1-2 seconds before they can convert. Perhaps even take 5 faith for each garrison and prevent faith restoration while garrisoned. I suspect the fortified monasteries will be particularly egregious to play against.

[@dariussonofjazzlin7433]

French Paladin laments his brothers in arms switching sides (1473, colourised)

[@tantegreta]

So how do we get on from here? We need a discussion on what role monks should play in AoE in the future. The RNG factor is cool but can also be frustrating and monks should not be the counter to everything. They should be a bit more situational, i think it would be interesting to see a video e.g. of you, ZeroEmpires, The Viper and T90 to have different perspectives on the topic. I'd be very interested in that.

[@Appletank8]

I feel like if the idea of Monks is to counter Knights, maybe they shouldn't so easily convert everything else too. Cavalry already have higher speeds than most units, and have the best chance to run. Infantry don't have that option.

[@DanJiang]

Ya. Monks need nurfing for the competitive scene. The new church design in the dlc will make monk and monastery even more scary.

[@LokirofRoriksted]

how to fix: monks cant go inside buildings and monks cant get rally point inside their monasteries. Maybe also increase the bonus damage a little so a scout/light cav can kill it in 2 hits instead of 3. The new change taking 1 second to restart a conversion is great. No more changing targets when the fleeing unit is out of range

[@ederofempires8793]

make heresy like 350g (pays back basically if the enemy converts 3 knights), and faith 150f 250g. Increase other imp-monk upgrades by costing more food in addition to gold. Maybe making the monk a bit less rng would be also nice. like 1-2 sec more minimum conversion time for 1-2 sec less maximum conversion time. Lastly one strong nerf could be, that monks don't regenerate faith while garrisoned.

[@mythology2467]

Syndrome: "and when everyone's nerfed" *evil laugh* "no one will be"

[@tyranitararmaldo]

Reminds me of a poem. Roses are red...wololoo...roses are blue

[@rynominnie83]

If only we'd listened to MbL when he made this exact point years ago in that famous Vululu clip

[@Scrooge12]

Different moments in this video I thought Hera was really preaching at me 🙏 😂

[@aapee565]

Monks have always been balanced around players not being good enough to use them. They got the scary reputation because AI could instantly start converting you as you enter their range, and could properly micro multiple monks, leaving no counterplay. Players couldn't do that in the days of Daut, but now are just getting too good at micro, which is breaking the balance we used to have. And yeah, if skynet could play AoE it would just spam monks all day every day because monks have been technically the best unit in the game ever since launch.

[@RAMMY237]

I'm still getting bloodcurdling flashbacks of one game I played against Aztecs AI on Hardest difficulty level back in the days D:

[@maelmoor]

Would've been interesting to hear your suggestions on how they should be nerfed, to add a bit more constructive criticism!

[@williamschubert4819]

I think apart from the next patches changes of the redemption exploit, they should increase the conversion min by 1 second. At least initially.

[@shaun4772]

"I'm playing against Mr. Yo the conversions are instant" I thought Mr. Yo's Monks were only super effective against TheViper lol

[@why_wait]

I think the other thing that they can do which is broken is target low value and then switch to another high value target with no delay so instant conversion. Spam convert on villagers stops them from working so you can constantly switch conversion and stop all of them building= castle deneyed. They should make a pause between attempting conversions like a cool down of 2 seconds which will stop both of these from happening and will fix a lot of balance issues at the same time without too much of a nerf otherwise

[@Mattroid99]

Hard agreed. Is so stupid even from a logical perspective At least the spam convert is getting worsened in the next patch

[@why_wait]

​@@Mattroid99 they have in the next patch actually done what I suggested 😮

[@sourathghosh5170]

Thanks for the video Hera. I hate dealing with monks too!Maybe give heavy cavalry (except camels) the same attack bonus against monks but not the conversion resistance? Knight needing more hits to take out an idle monk compared to a light cav doesn't make sense to me.

[@sourathghosh5170]

Actually would like to go even further and want the above mentioned attack bonus to ensure sure light cavs , knights and elephants, need 3,2 ,1 shots respectively to take out a generic monk with sanctity.....anything that makes monk play high risk -high reward...NOT JUST HIGH REWARD.

[@fredrikerlandsson5091]

A fun idea could be to ad a new unit to the monastery - inquisitor. Prevents conversions in an area (eg 5-10 tiles) to hard counter monks.

[@voidgods]

There's no need to add mechanics on top of mechanics. Just make units have "hidden resistance" vs monks so devs can fine tune balance around monks vs individual units. Monks are not generally broken. They thrive in knight meta and that's it. They are a counter to BBC and onagers in late game and that's it. As hera pointed out, nothing changed in regards to monks, but rather in what units are dominant in the mid game. Nerfing monks is a lazy fix that will then need to be reverted if the meta ever goes back to xbows.

[@lightworker2956]

@@voidgods I also wouldn't add an inquisitor, but monks are also good vs melee infantry and elephants. Really it's only light cav or archer-type units they're weak against, but of course archer-type units have been nerfed and aren't that good anymore.

[@RAMMY237]

So, several ideas came to my mind: 1) Increase monks cost in Imperial Age 2) Increase monks cost with each monastery upgrade researched 3) Increase cost of monk upgrades 4) Decrease cost of anti-monk upgrades 5) Add bonus damage of siege units against monks -- at least fucking rocks fired by mangonel must kill an elderly baldy bastards :D

[@jcpkill1175]

Ive not followed the scene but ive slowly noticed this myself in the few games ive seen and the play ive had.

[@forsakenquery]

Monk meta is fucking great to watch compared to xbow and wall meta. The thing that needs to change with monk meta is cav pathfinding. They've had 4 nerfs with next patch. Bumping monk cost to 120 is probably a good change rather than changing mechanics.

[@Asterix958]

Converting Mangonels and Bombard Cannons from huge distance is also too strong. 3 Monks cripple 5 Bombard Cannons easily (strongest counter mechanic in the game). It is like 3 Halberdier countering 5 Paladin. I think they should have -2 range against these Siege units.

[@forsakenquery]

@@Asterix958 that's fine. Too many civs don't have access to bombard, monks are the only counter play - bombards make siege worthless. Monks NEED to hard counter them. Use trebs vs redemption.

[@calronkeltaran493]

still remember in AoK/early AoC monks where considered useless because they cost so much gold and can easily die.

[@javierramos185]

I realized a long time ago that in high level games all the games are defined by monks, it gets boring that's why I prefer to see lower level games elo 1600, 1700 etc

[@tomyrobinson3196]

Let’s nerf everything until knights are the only viable unit

[@Saeda88]

"Why aren't we seeing this at lower levels?" - We are, though. I (1150) recently told an Arena Clown Friend that I stopped using kts, only open Castle Age with LC because of monks. 2/3 conversions against kts go through and microing 4 monks or TC hopping is normal these days. He said "No way can 1200s play this like that". Literally the next game, I encountered exactly that - and my Opponent, also a friend, even says they're not good with Monks. Going Kts, or rather opening Kts, is a guaranteed way of losing games you should never lose. 1200s may not be as good with Monks as the Pros, but 1200s these days are decent players, they picked up on Monks being OP and learned to play them. Just like I picked up on that and never open Kts anymore, LC are 2/3 as strong as Kts, cost half as much, can be massed in Feudal and don't care about Monks. And since I like to finish my games in Castle Age, the Knighr-Line may well not exist anymore. At the swiss tourney last week, the winner of the final answered the question if monks should be nerfed with "They should be completely removed". I'm not sure I fully agree, but I see the point, that level of RNG just shouldn't be in a Strategy Game. I 100% Agree with Hera, they don't need a small nerf, they need a massive one. /rant over

[@BlueShellshock]

Monks are all about earning value, that's why religions have profits.

[@teutonichealingfortress]

Increase heal speed - remove conversion reload increase tech - remove the ability to start all monk timers on a single unit then switching all monks individually to other units(remove ability to transfer current monk timers to other units, if switching it restarts the conversion process)

[@Davtwan]

At least the October patch will address two power exploits and instant conversations aren’t a thing anymore (without unit switching). But dang, it’s ridiculous how cheap a lot of those Monk Techs are.

[@mattwhite4302]

Which power exploits are getting addressed?

[@valenting19]

​@@mattwhite4302disturbing an unlimited amount of villagers building a castle for exemple and also making the switch from converting a building to converting a unit not convert it instantly

[@LordGuallo]

You shall not doubt the power of faith. Wololooooooo

[@spinyslasher6586]

Redemption should be more expensive and moved to imperial age.

[@hartesgeld]

What kind of nerf would you suggest? Lower movespeed? Lower conversion speed? Higher costs? Longer creation time? A mix of those?

[@DaeValarauko]

On one hand, I have 2023 inflation. On the other, it's a dollar store! 😂

[@dan-kn3dm]

It's not a thing just with pros. I get that from time to time on Nomad as well, big monk + siege pushes which are close to impossible to deal with.

[@ralfwolters3843]

defensive castle?

[@EugeneOneguine]

And when I do a monk rush I get swarmed by 40+ light cav which is just impossible to micro against. I think monks are too strong against most units, and light cav is too strong against monks. Just nerf monks hard, and then nerf light cav's bonus against them. Also, unpopular take : buildings are too strong. It's so costly to make a push happen, and so easy to mess everything up in 1 click slightly under the TC.

[@krystofcisar469]

so you lost to a good strat... what about it? :D

[@viktorreiter8811]

- monks can no longer garrison in tc-tower-castle (but able to garrison in monasteries) - conversion range drastically reduced - monk and monk techs more expensive (maybe even add 20stone to the monastery cost) - add an autoconvert mechanic (monks start conversions like ranged units start engagements). this is to make monks useable in low elo. any nerf to monks will just make them completely disappean under 1200 elo without adressing the micro problem.

[@alexkfridges]

- monks should lose faith when they garrison. - Anti-monk tech prices should be WAY cheaper to make it more of a viable counter if someone is spamming monks. - Conversions should just be way less random in general (reduce variance of conversion timer so it's more reliable to calculate when to dive on them and kill them)

[@petarstoyanov6032]

in my opinion the best that could be done is make the anti-monks upgrades cheaper and increase the price of redemption, the only civ I can see really needing to keep their monks is Burmese, because it's simply a monk civ

[@fenrisvarg5563]

i think its a good start makeing counter monk techs cheaper and increase cost of every tech only for monks +50 gold

[@jorgedelamora5905]

Hera I think i solved the issue. All monks should have different time convertions for all units regarding their total cost. So it will be tougher to convert expensive units and very easy to convert cheap units. That would make everyone happy and troops like eles would come back to the game! What do you think?

[@jaredmoore3825]

What I want to know, is why are Monastery Techs, like Faith and Heresy so damn expensive?? The best two ways to defend your blanket army from monks, but still doesn’t completely protect them, cost basically the imperial age upgrade cost. Should not be so expensive for so little monk defense.

[@laurencerosenthalwinckler4439]

idea: nerf monks and make microing it more accessible to the masses (ex: pressing Q in an area with theocracy will randomly pick the closest units and start converting) - shift Q with a group of monks though units will make them pick the targets individually - something like that, that doesnt require creating 1 group per monk or kicking them out of the selection individually - this kind of micro in 2024 is just... dumb and too manual. Make heresy cheaper to counter monks - give it a chance of your unit get stunned for X seconds instead of death. Maybe make conversion a battle between opposite monks (ex: your enemy monk tries to convert your unit, but you have a monk yourself closer to the unit - chance of getting the conversion is lower - chance of monk on the otherside to loose faith if your monk "wins"). Upgrades on mo Make upgrade to heresy "martyr of the cause". If a monk convert your unit and it dies theres a chance the enemy monk who converted loose faith permanently or even dies etc. "It got moved by the faith of enemy unit". Monks should still be good for unprepared enemies, but there should be option to counter it if given time to prepare with this kind of upgrade I suggested. Also.. AOE2 should have more complex mechanics like stuns, unit concussion/confusion and slows.

[@captainrumia2607]

Maybe it's because I don't play competitive, but my understanding was that monks basically existed to pick up relics and nothing else. I never thought I'd see the day when they were even considered usable outside of a Saracen Monk Rush.

[@TheRealBruceLouis]

2 decades ago, when screens were small and tcs took half ur screen as well as lag to boot, monks were a gimmick. now, with a screen where u can have such a wide view, and very little lag to no lag, monks potential has been realized. but yes even i would never imagine seein monks like this in my life.

[@kane_lives]

@@TheRealBruceLouis Completely ignorant of history. Smush was a legitimate strategy literally 20 years ago. Type "Aokheaven smush" and you see threads from 2002 and 2003 describing this Monk heavy strategy.

[@thefire-nanceguy4440]

wow have you played ranked ever or watch many pro games? used all the time in closed maps and obviously recently

[@captainrumia2607]

​@@thefire-nanceguy4440 As I said, I don't play competitive, kid. All I know is what I've heard people say about the game over the years. To be fair, I was being a bit hyperbolic since monks had some use even before, such as using redemption to support archers by converting enemy onagers.

[@thefire-nanceguy4440]

@@captainrumia2607 but you're commenting on a pros video so surely you have watched some recent games

[@kalr242]

i got a dumb idea to maybe fix monks, remove their ability to convert units and instead they have to research the ability to convert units and split the tech to convert villagers and military units. Might work might not dunno im a newb

[@3Dthinker-]

What are you thinking as a solution? I’m thinking definitely faith and heresy be cheaper and block printing and illumination more expensive.

[@RennieAsh]

Vululu, _Vululu!!!_ Oh i convert one monk, i convert it back!

[@misteral9045]

Change: conversion is now a secondary "hp" bar that fills up and depletes over time, only converted at max Change: monks spend faith to convert, regenerates over time, can garrison in monastaries to rest faster Change (or perhaps UT): can sacrifice monk while converting to kill enemy unit (does not work if opponent has heresy, only works on non siege land units) Hopefully this would turn the conversion mechanic into something more like regular combat, and make monk micro less painful.

[@wimverlinden8087]

Would it be a good idea to change the default mechanic of conversion to having units die and only when heresy is researched the units switch sides?

[@natanielezanetti]

hi, are you going to make a video about your current hotkeys and how you changed them?

[@johnnyroe8053]

Thank god you made this video and they are getting at least some nerf in the next patch, monks are lame af. Fun fact: Monks didn't convert enemy units in battle back then

[@momobo5889]

Nerf monks in a way that dont make them worse for bad/mid elo player, thats the challenge And without disturbing civ balance. Prediction: Before the end of the year devs will have a solution

[@peterisawesomeplease]

There are totally ideas out there for that. I like the idea of garrison faith penalty or even needing to charge faith after creation before they can convert. Most low level players would never notice these changes but they would have meaningful effects in higher level play. Also lowering the cost of the anti-monk techs would help. Although I feel these techs are a bit unsatisfying. I would rather see a tech that gives attack bonus against monks as opposed to the current techs.

[@phirephate]

No. ALL nerfs/buffs should be at highest level play only.

[@darkweeman133]

Iow elo players don't use monks anyways so a nerf will barely affect them

[@WizardyDylan]

block printing is crazy cheap to be fair this is like the highest value for money tech in the game

[@chronographer]

Get ready for more monks with Saracens buffs incoming. Monks have always been good in low number battles. The meta getting quicker and build orders refining has also made army sizes smaller. Which benefits monk play. Gone are the days of attacking with 15-18 crossbows. Now you poke with 4 archers. 8 knights and some light cav support? No time, your first two knights need to be in their base. Forward siege with 4 mangonel and 30 pikes? No, a single mangonel to defend is all you build. I think this shift has made as much or more of a buff to monks than any other change since DE general performance improvements.

[@imsmeagol911]

Some solutions: Make faith affordable. 300-400 gold would seem reasonable. None of this imperial age cost crap. Make heresy more affordable. Around 750 gold seems about right. Make monks unable to garrison in TCs and towers, just like cavalry.

[@vibhavvashishtha1484]

A change that might help against monks is redemption shouldnt allow monks to convert buildings, a totally different imperial age tech should be introduced

[@jemandanderes7075]

How would you nerf monks?

[@christopherkhill3213]

Thanks for addressing the issue, Hera. A game that features historical cultures shouldn’t be routinely determined by religious conversion of siege equipment.

[@Asterix958]

High range of Monks is pertinent identity in real life but Monks should have -2 range against siege weapons at least and Light Cavalry should be buffed against Monks. Light Cav is already expensive unit and simple cheap Pikeman totally negate them. Another problem is that they are too cheap. Monks can be faster or stronger but their cost is unjust. Their so-called counter, Light cavalry is actually more expensive due to costing food and necessary upgrades (Bloodlines and Husbandry).

[@stephenpimm5940]

October patch is closing some monk loopholes

[@WakeUpSleepyHead-V1]

Maybe monks shouldn’t be able to garrison. Or only garrison in monasteries? Or only one monk per building?

[@Manouil_III]

Priest in RoR costs 120g

[@squidmanfedsfeds5301]

I got a way to shake up the monk meta, rush in feudal don’t let the game go to castle age

[@tomassmith2088]

Best counter to monks is atonement. "I used the monks to destroy the monks"

[@MegaGouch]

Block printing cost is the single biggest thing that needs chnaging IMO. Monks aren't too OP in the Castle age, but once they get that 12 range knights/cav almost become completely useless, or only 200 gold. The random conversion time can also be very OP, some games playes will get a bunch on insta conversions and really swing a game, where the other player gets long conversions times and never have any that land.

[@arthur-yq4ic]

i played about 6 years ago aoe2 hd i played only aztecs fc on arena 1 tc monk rush only the same stat brought me to 2k1 elo it was really overpowered even back then

[@ar1sm70]

Damn my question got a video on YT, nice :)

[@danielacuna86]

If monks were OP, then missionaries wouldn't be a meme unit that almost no one uses, especially in a game where unit speed is too important when evaluating a unit.

[@markbenson3450]

Love that home screen

[@camilosanchez1754]

Monks have their moment in early castle i think they are fine

[@ycampbell7672]

I think they should start by cutting the cost of heresy and faith in half