Why Aren't There Any Good Christian Games?

[@moon-channel]

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[@Hel1mutt]

That song at the end was well done! Bravo!

[@shaye5095]

I definitely read this as "World of Worships"

[@lornbaker1083]

I learned more Christian religious words from warhammer forty k than I ever did from any Actual christian entertainment. For example canoness prioress Crusade sanctom Chastity Litany cherub templar cardinal Ecclesiarc Pilgrimage blasphemy , The council of nicea. The inquisition. And of course, everybody's favourite word to use in the world of war hammer forty k . HERESY! This was a wonderful video. But it also proves to me the fact that christian video games are never going to get successful Because they're always going to limit themselves every single time.

[@BlackMoonHowls]

@@lornbaker1083 YAS! Also, look into Pagan and Nordic, Viking lore and history, you wont be disappointed.

[@BlackMoonHowls]

@@Hel1mutt Me: Will the circle...be unbroken by and by, by and by. There's a better, home awaiting, in the sky in the sky. Also me: God is an awesome God he reigns! (Techno music kicks in) *Extreme Griefer Jesus Spawns. Me playing GTA Chaos Mod: "Oh noes it's Super Jesus sent to punish the wicked and the evil doers, we're doomed."

[@shoobagoo6108]

Using the Chao garden when talking about predestination and going to heaven or hell is frankly, an unfathomably powerful vibe that I can't quite explain.

[@mimszanadunstedt441]

Eugenics.

[@Ariuss3]

The Chao garden is innately a powerful vibe and improves anything it is added to.

[@zero69kage]

Sega! Please make another chao garden. I what to see my babies again.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

And showing New Jersey as hell shows the newyorkerism.

[@TheRenofox]

@@zero69kage Two first questions from a Sonic Frontiers interview: -What have Sonic fans requested the most? -Chao gardens -Does this game have Chao gardens? -No.

[@Robyn_007]

Christian Media tends to function moreso as sermons than entertainment. There are very devout creators who make art about their faith, its just their art rarely gets the 'Christian' stamp on it as they are usually aiming their message at a general audience.

[@matthewjalovick]

Exactly. Someone like Phil Keaggy, who is easily ranked as possibly the greatest guitarist of all time, is a devout Christian. He focuses on making the best art he can… not on making some palatable evangelical lukewarm blah.

[@thomasffrench3639]

The problem is that Christians are bad artists for the most part. Plenty of the best pieces of fiction and art are Christian pieces.

[@Lacuna002]

@@thomasffrench3639 These great works weren't done by just any Christian, they were done by Christians who eschewed dogma, superstition and reason, and became men of true faith.

[@techy804]

Exactly. This is why Phil Visher's (The guy who made "VeggieTales" as well as "321 Pengiuns") work can be easily consumed by anybody, as it was designed to aim at a general audience as well as Christians.

[@thomasffrench3639]

@@Lacuna002depends on the work tho.

[@mackybell14]

I was really waiting on you mentioning the *'Faith'* series. Its a horror indie trilogy where you play as a priest trying to finish a botched exorcism. Its a masterfully paced survival horror adventure that gets scarier as you know more about the story and fight more demons. As horrifiying as it is, there's still a theme of "maintaining faith with God" so that you can endure all the devil can throw at you. With the creator also being a pastor, it might be a good Christian Game.

[@i_fish6657]

I bought it but haven't found time to play it. I find it really interesting that it is under the same publisher as ultrakill which has very strong atheistic anti Christian themes

[@domeen0gt895]

wait the dev is a pastor?

[@RepublicaPopularNovaSilesia]

@@domeen0gt895sunday school teacher I believe

[@i_fish6657]

@@domeen0gt895 he was a missionary

[@RaptieFeathers]

That's amazing, holy crap

[@jimmymullen6253]

As a Catholic gamer, I've never thought about Christian video games as anything other than niche products intended to be sold to the "American Christan" (as the video terms it) who will accept it regardless of quality provided it portrays the accepted values. Seeing the video deconstruct the "Standard American Christian" and how the games they would make necessarily subscribe to this game philosophy makes me think of the neigh universally agreed upon holy grail of Christian media, Veggietales. Veggietales was a pioneer, and the day before Toy Story 1 released nobody on earth had made as much 3D animation as Big Idea had. They used the strength of the medium they had and told engaging stories that were novel in presentation and genuinely kind, funny, well written, and unabashedly Christian without alienating non-believers. It is clear to me that Christian video games would need a similar champion if they ever were to become as beloved as Veggietales was in its prime. Video games are inherently experiential, so I have to imgaine the marriage of mechanics and Christian philosophy would be the best path forward. For example, a fairly universal theme in Christianity is triumph over repeated struggle by vitrue of perseverance. Recursive, explorative games like Dark Souls, Hollow Knight, and Blasphemous already have a template not disimilar in their death mechanics. When killed, one must return to the site of failure and struggle on. Many people who play games like this feel intensley rewarded upon reaching the credits, not unlike the religious experience of finding value in suffering, via personal growth and strength of charcater. Games are uniquely suited to providing this experience. With some teasing out of mechanics, I could see many very wholistically Christian beliefs disguise themselves as engaging mechanics in the same way Veggietales disguised itself as Monthy Python, but Christian and for kids.

[@BlackMoonHowls]

That's the thing about great story telling, strong writing, relatability, as well as believable material as far as storytelling goes. I can't tell you enough of what Inspired me to begin writing, but I can say it was a moral choice from a video game and then as I went along and much like a dream as told by Inception, I discovered as I created. 80's VHS anime, 90's Laser Disk releases, mecha, D&D, Space and the Interstellar, Religious and Spiritual ideas, Paganism and Native American Tribalism among many other things. One thing I can tell you is that most things Hollywood has spit out over the course of like almost a decades at this point is just awful and we do live in a Dystopia, like a real one albeit it's corporately controlled and ruled it's just so boring, safe, and "family friendly" while politics fuels it all under the name of Religion as I can tell from gaining wealth but never using it for good from this video, also it's just pure unadulterated avarice and sheer hubris in the movie industry as well as many other places like game companies. Halo is dead because corpo and also incompetent handling, we just can't have nice things anymore. So, I write to poke fun at it and parody the fact that we are living in a technologically advanced world hurdling towards that unchecked corporate technological and experimental retail of the Cyberpunk world. All the while Fimbulwinter is killing the magic or Hekka in our world, (Divine or Psychic Energy) but also this is the world that prevailed over alchemy of the old world, science and technology reign supreme while magik is oppressed even in religion just look at it. I made a Science Fantasy adventure, it all originated in AI Dungeon, and I have sing moved it from there and have been Soley working on it myself. After 2 years of work was gone because of human error, I have been recreating it ever since. It's basically a big middle finger to Corporations, Hollywood, and basically the stale boring reality that we find ourselves in. Technology is only as good as the ones who produced it and also who use it as it would seem. Point being, going through Xboxes is a pain in the rear but I am stuck with Microsoft, and I can't move to Sony, I'd have to literally re buy all my games I have accumulated and most of them are not Xbox exclusive no more and also Activision being bought by MS Xbox so the others are not even available cause PlayStation exclusives. I have not had a PlayStation since I was like ten or so, I'm almost thirty now I'd have to relearn how to play with a PS controller all over again being accustomed Xbox controllers. More recently I have experimented with M/K controls in games just for funsies. I'm lying it really isn't, it's to have at least SOME kind of not edge but equal ground with PC players in Fortnite, just to stand some kind of chance of being beaten out one hundred percent of the time on controller only against M/K only. The forced cross play is hated but never really spoken about ....... for reasons. You just "git gud" or eat dust there is no middle ground, so you have to adapt to just get left behind in an endless game of catchup but never getting there, the gap though is indefinitely unobtainable. I just want to play music in the background and play a video game at the same time like back in the day. Now you can report in game chat on Xbox, a Brand-New feature AND join a Discord channel all from your Xbox. Catch is that you have to have a Discord account and I have used it as well as Twitter before the whole X thing now, and they both suck so bad. Never mind Twitch and what they do which is just as bad if not worse, YT is just disgusting anymore. Corpos, and then there are people like if not HIM himself, Elon Musk... 2020 and 2021 was a literal social and cultural rebirth it was like the modern day "medieval" era. Bardcore was invented and things were all "Medieval remix of X songs. Metal was made into a more primitive sound while still sounding hard core hints the term Bard-Core. Two years later we moved onto 2022 and current year as typing this, 2023. This marks the Synthwave and Synth rock revival of the 80's. Bands that were famous are now in the 2010's were praised on the internet and new ones are popping up to recapture the 80's. Funny thing is that the 80's sounds were just an experimental thing and a way to predict the future in a way I guess. So now people are trying to recapture that era as if Time in a Bottle, it's old school sounding but brand new. September 87, NINA, The Midnight, Dr. Disrespect has some great music but I'm not a fan at all of his character, the persona is cool but not how he acts. There are other bands like Haloweak that I am discovering as of this week and reminds me of 2009 and my childhood of falling in love with Trance and Psytrance or Goa with songs by them like "Narwhal" or "Dust". Goa bands like Astrix and Liquid Soul. Bands like Gunship or Midnight Danger, that has that synthy sounds but also industrial-like Preturbator or anything by Alien Vampires as just Industrial or even EBM from Matrix Reloaded in the Club scene with all the people in pleather and gothic rave wear. Trentemoller with their song called "Deceive" I discovered in a fan parody of Magica Madoka. OST's from 80's anime has that REAL old school sound like from one called Dragon's Heaven and Gall Force or even D.OL.L.S and the Project A-Ko movie. ALL amazing OST's also inspired me to have that old modern feel to my adventure but with futuristic themes and ideas. Similar to what Samurai Champloo did but I used way more "Old vs New" concepts that clash all the time and still somehow "Coordinate" maybe no go together but similar to clothes, fashion and humor, it's all subjective really. I also use music to write and make it that much more emotional and engaging for the audience. It was all just to entertain myself, but I have since let or what in reality was desperately tried to get people to listen to it. NOBODY wants to listen to anything but their own echo chambers. Creativity and Individualism is punished while Ignorance, Stupidity and "Yes Manning" is rewarded. I am fighting the Industry and the Corporate/Social Norm and Acceptability in my own way by challenging those ideas and beliefs by opposing them with my own. Novels like Blood Meridian more specifically the version by Cormac Mccarthy thought me to challenge traditional writing and the English language with grammar and the like. "Why would I mark up my pages with useless dots and shit all over the place?" I just want to make a fun and entertaining piece that is coherent and not some Activist in the place of a Writer like they do in Modern Hollywood. Something real form a real person that has soul and body. Real struggles as well as that sci-fi and magical edge to it.

[@jimmymullen6253]

@@Nykandros If all you knew about Christianity came from Moon Channel's description of "Protestant Ethics" in this video, I would agree with your assessment. The reason he brought this up is because, as he said, this particular offshoot of Christianity seems to have very strong cultural links to America's growth in culture. However, with even a cursory look at most non-puritanical versions of Christianity, your assessment of Christians as requiring asceticism and believing in predestination is just factually incorrect. Catholics, (the sect I previously stated I align myself with) in particular, believe in (as he stated in the video) "Ora et Labora" (prayer and work), meaning that in order to get into heaven we need to both align ourselves with God's will and carry it out through our own effort, as well as accept God's "grace" (spiritual strength) in order to make up for what is impossible as a mere human. These actions require both strong wills and informed intellects. While I hope you weren't making a bad faith interpretation of what I said just because of a bias against Christianity, I think that I ought to inform you that outside of the more fringe Protestant groups, the vast majority of Christians believe in some form of spiritual reward given by God when suffering is endured. When I initially made the first comment, my point was simply that that sort of adversity/reward loop is already an ingrained idea in game design, and could easily be tuned to reflect Christianity (broadly or particularly to one sect) and possibly expand into other philosophical positions held by Christians.

[@BlackMoonHowls]

@@Nykandros Bruh you might be missing the point on the bigger picture of Religion as it exiists today, corporations. I do agree struggle is the best way to overcome obstacles in life, Modern Christians in a since can be bible thumping goodie goodie two shows, have their cake and eat it and the crumbs too but then there is the Dutch Reformed Church, which is something I could actually like. I'm apart of the LGBT+ but not the ones that call themselves LGBTQ. The Q has been used for far too long as a put down and cannot be "taken back" or redeemed at all anymore. Where words like Witch just is an insult it was derived from the old world to mean evil but it was from medicine and natural remedies that sparked the Hexenjagd or 'With Hunt" back then. That was actually hrny little girls trying to get rid of the wives of these older men and also anyone that owed a debt or something or sneezed and it cause pothers pain. A Play in the court of law as it was to get their way and get away with it, and they high off of their own fumes believed it all. Cruel and Unusual is what it was back then. It was bad, real bad and it only changed to "Others that are not us are sinners" only because they don't see the sin they commit just like the Daleks they are the reason of their own downfall, Similar to the Jehovah Witnesses going from door to door, not a good look. Hints why the DRC or the Reformation. I had no idea whatsoever that is how sterile I have been since casting off conventional religion forever ago for the unconventional of the Spiritual. I'm Wiccan myself so I have a different look on things, and I didn't fully understand the sheer gravity of the situation until that happened with the renaming of the LGBT Community, I praised and held in very high regard respected even. As far as games go, I agree the way "Christian Games" are made it's not a very good mix or even coordinates very well. Point is that the games are preachy and are only for a targeted audience, the so devout they'd probably hurt themselves for their God. it should concentrate on storytelling and not some half-baked cocked attempt at conversion, truly cringe worthy. It's all trying to recapture the lost times of VeggieTales piggie backing on greater things to further their own cause or agenda. The Bible The Video Game is free on Steam and it is literally just an audiobook. It is actually the creator of the game narrating the actual real to life Bible. Mind blowing really.

[@FelisImpurrator]

​@@NykandrosSpeaking even as a philosophical anti-theist, I think your interpretation is so biased as to be functionally useless. I also noticed that your examples of "triumph over struggle" consist entirely of imperial conquerors, which is a rather fascist framing...

[@FelisImpurrator]

​@@jimmymullen6253Actually, some people like Eredin use that exact rationale to interpret Dark Souls lore. I think the most important thing really is just to knowingly reject the particularly authoritarian/submissive, toil and misery-oriented dynamics of American Protestantism. For them, struggle is inherently valuable, and suffering becomes an end unto itself, rather than a means to augment and enhance the feeling of triumph and catharsis. Without that glorification of suffering for suffering's sake it's entirely possible, I imagine, to have a fulfilling game that's also explicitly Christian.

[@awesomesauce980]

The problem with "christian" media is the same problem with "[insert any ideology]" media. Its putting the cart before the horse, making the message more important than the actual work which in turn ends up underming the message

[@SystemBD]

Indeed. However, there is a reason for it. They want to make everything about them, because otherwise they lose their relevance. That's why they focus on what's popular. No matter if it is Mortal Kombat or Pokemon (or comics or rock and roll before that). They have to recontextualize them within their own mythology... so that they don't become irrelevant.

[@BerenElendilAPGaming]

​@@SystemBD...Yeah? That's how any ideology stays relevant after its inception. The faithful say "this is what we believe and how it applies to what's going on right now", whether that's Christianity or Hinduism or more modern ideologies like self-actualization and intersectionality.

[@ArchSchizo]

@@SystemBD I don't believe for a second that Christianity would become irrelevant without co-opting popular media, but I agree that there is something particularly wrong with the attempts to "hijack" or "purify" things with universal appeal. The highest efforts that evil can muster cannot defeat God, so how could Super Mario of all things pose a threat great enough to warrant "fixing" into a bootleg game? Its all marketing, a grift to make cash from an "uncool" demographic, whether the creator belongs to this demographic or not. High budget projects wouldn't risk being uncool with target demographics, but small budget rip-offs could leverage Christian themes to profit on this untapped market. Its all business, and it has been business since art was made for profit. Games COULD just be targeted to cripple a new industry, this is also a tale as old as time. Movies were always more vulgar than the games of the same year, both at their worst and on average. Politicians COULD be serving the more influential connections by ignoring Hollywood during their moral panic campaigns. It could be to distract from the ongoing wars. At the end of the day, there is a possibility that religion has nothing to do with it.

[@91thewatcher23]

Kind of like games based on movies (Finding Nemo for the Gamecube, I'm looking at you).

[@flamepanther]

I don't know how interested God actually is in craftsmanship, but this is my favorite quote whenever Christian media comes up “The Christian shoemaker does his duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes, but by making good shoes, because God is interested in good craftsmanship.” --Martin Luther

[@zionj104]

30:00 Fun fact, the Pope actually *approved* of Pokemon in 2000, saying ' Pokemon is "full of inventive imagination," has no "harmful moral side effects," and is based on "the ties of intense friendship." '

[@KasumiRINA]

I wish people would actually look at church authority on these matters instead of some random Karen who labels everything she doesn't understand as satanic lol. I noticed a knee-jerk reaction to evolution and big bang theory among church-goers, completely ignoring how both were made by actual Christian church members.

[@zionj104]

There is no "church authority" in the Low Church denominations these Karens are in. @@KasumiRINA Also they think Catholics worship Mary, aren't real Christians, etc.

[@nooneofnote8453]

The Pope being the head of a Catholic Church though means a lot of American Evangelicals would take that to mean Pokemon is even worse (because they don’t like Catholics either due to worship of Mary and the Saints)

[@KasumiRINA]

@@nooneofnote8453 as an Orthodox Christian, the saint worshiping thing is ridiculous, it's borderline idolatry. Unfortunately, Protestants screw up so much stuff when they try to bring up church into people's bedrooms and children's playrooms, their "Protestant ethics" makes traditional churches somehow look less archaic by comparison.

[@Mike14264]

​@@nooneofnote8453 oh damn, that's weird.

[@answer5092]

Your mention of "That Dragon, Cancer" basically confirms the idea I already had in my head while watching the video: the only way to make a good Christian game is to make it not from an organizational (?) point of view, but from a *personal* one - to focus on telling *your* personal, individual experience with your faith, your relationship to God, your church, the values you were taught, and how all of that interacts with the other dimensions of your life. I suppose self-expression still isn't productive enough for puritans, though.

[@F1areon]

nah bc self-expression is pride and hubris or whatever

[@OneEyeShadow]

​@@F1areonyou gotta commit _some_ sins to praise the Lord.

[@ChrisHilgenberg]

While being entertaining though, that's key. There is so many 'personal experience' stories turned into literature out there that they languish in the Christian fiction section of a used bookstore until they get out into the clearance section in mass. It's hard to tell if they're not selling through over saturation or just they aren't good.

[@JackdotC]

​@@ChrisHilgenbergboth can be true at the same time, and infarct would combine to be extra bad

[@Lucroq]

All faith is ultimately personal, everything superimposed on that seems too invasive. I think this perfectly demonstrates that good video games are always art - the creator(s) put something deeply personal into them, and you as a player also get something out of them that resonates with you; and whether you and they are on the same frequency or not is almost indeterminable. Asking for a good "Christian" game is as fruitless as asking for a good "X-ism" game. If you put the superstructure or ideology first, it will be flat, derivative and preachy. Show us a good human and personal story, something we can all relate to in some way, and we will certainly be engaged, even if we aren't a carbon copy of the subjects in all of our aspects.

[@9Tensai9]

As a non american I really appreciate you explaining american religion without being overly preachy and worshipping it or just calling it a cancer or smt. You made it sound "human". You know what I mean. The whole time I was getting little moments of "oh, that makes sense now". Truly a great experience. Also what the hell you aren't half bad at singing. Thank you.

[@valroniclehre193]

Problem is the creeping theocracy though.

[@isabellp.5730]

*american christianity

[@idkhahahaha]

@@valroniclehre193 Wdym theocracy, american government is far from it in fact probably leaning in the opposite direction

[@valroniclehre193]

@@idkhahahaha The christian right in america is constantly pushing for theocracy. Christian rules and narratives already push their way into schools and law. I don't just mean incidentally aligned aspects, I mean explicit reference to religion as the motivating cause of certain policies. Nearly all of which are destructive. I can't tell you how many times I have heard god used as justification for harming others, or maintaining bad ideas. I hope religion gets pushed out more and more but clearly it wont go down without a fight.

[@onewingedangel9189]

​@@idkhahahahathere are multiple politicians openly supporting theocracy. They are a minority but it is present.

[@skwidtheoctopus6328]

A reason classic veggie takes worked was the fact on top of being lessons on Christian values, it was also very entertaining, enjoyable by many ages, and even had pop culture references. I mean, the silly songs with Larry (which you so wonderfully parodied at the end) was an intermission in the middle of the narrative just to be entertaining and silly. To this day I can sing the water buffalo song VERBATIM with the exact voice too.

[@somagames]

The Silly Song ending…brilliant. :) And frankly settled any possible question of the creator knowing the topic from the inside. :)

[@skwidtheoctopus6328]

@@somagames absolutely

[@Yipper64]

When some people say "the problem with Christian media is the problem with any media based on ideology" this is what I think of. Veggie Tales still was, and yet its good and appeals even to non-Christians just by being quality entertainment. These are clearly not exclusive things. We can see how focusing on an ideology can go wrong and make entertainment bad, but that doesnt mean it always will. Most of the time its due to a story being told sacrificing realism for the sake of getting a point across, and people see right through that. So really its a lack of basic storytelling principles being used, because of... Well I suppose fear that people cant just get the idea unless its didactically explained to them. When it comes to videogames specifically I think this entire video is off the mark. You can see a pattern between licensed games and religious games, they almost seem to be cut from the same cloth. Think about it. So what happened? Well, I havnt done that extensive research on it, but I do recall hearing at some point at least in the early days it was people making games to be put in Christian book stores because it was an exclusive market. Not because they actually shared in the faith but just to get grandma to pick up for their grandkids. And I think *that* is the issue here.

[@darmandez]

WEED EATER

[@ellanimation816]

⁠@@Yipper64it’s all about the actual quality of a show or product, there’s a reason veggie tales is famous and well loved and the Globgogabgalab is a dank meme

[@AspavientosPC]

As a Spanish (raised) Catholic I was definitely shocked you addressed me individually. Good to know you have specifically me in mind, Moonie.

[@gresh1134]

To slightly modify a quote from CS Lewis, "What we want is not more [video games] about Christianity, but more [video games] by Christians on other subjects - with their Christianity latent.”

[@prfctstrm]

my goal as a game designer

[@Bert4th]

Exactly how I feel as a Catholic. A good Christian game (to me) is a normal video game that was created by Christians with subliminal Christian messaging on normal things. A perfect example of what I'm talking about is Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

[@stevethepocket]

You've now made me realize that the same American Christians who put the Narnia books on a pedestal nowadays for being a brilliant allegory would probably decry it as satanic if it had come out in their own lifetimes.

[@Mark-in8ju]

The Halo Trilogy had many Christian themes.

[@thekiss2083]

Noted [gamer] C.S. Lewis

[@Morall332]

As a French Catholic, there's a lot of things I wanna say. How this video was an eye opener, how as an extremely online bilingual nerd I had heard the term "protestant work ethic" but had never understood it before, how I appreciate your approach to education (starting with an interesting but mundane topic just to go into a deep dive on obscure but significant historical cultural context)... But all I can say is this: is that the Wasteland 3 soundtrack I can faintly hear in the background? 'Tis a real banger!

[@Zedkiller1101]

"French Catholic" Not very many of you guys left from what I hear.

[@Morall332]

@@Zedkiller1101 Well, religious belief is on decline across the Western world, so I don't think that France is particularly special in that regard Also, that might depend on your definition of Catholic; I've definitely met some people who wouldn't consider me one because I don't go to church enough, or am not homophobic enough, or whatever So the rate of decline may vary depending on your metric This said, I've never felt ostracized or repressed because of my religious beliefs, and I'm pretty open about my faith, so it's not like France has become an atheistic dystopia, either

[@Zedkiller1101]

@@Morall332 You put down some good points. I've heard being an American Catholic makes me somehow not enough of a Catholic or something to that end. My impression came from reading on the French Revolution, and how the governing body during the Reign of Terror did their damnedest to "encourage enlightened atheism" and how that period of time really pushed out Catholicism from France. In any case, it's good to hear a firsthand account from someone in current day France.

[@Morall332]

@@Zedkiller1101 From what I hear, our two cultures have somewhat different takes on things like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. For the latter, I've heard our own "laïcité" being described as "freedom from religion". Most notably, religious symbols are banned from government buildings, which includes public schools. This means that cross pendants, Muslim head scarves, etc. must be kept out of view. But in general, there are no obstacles to practicing your religion or going to mass, religious schools are still an option (and often opened to non-religious people or different religions), there are many public discourses for and against religion, etc. All that to say that I can see how French culture might seem oppressive towards Catholicism, or religion in general, especially in places where faith is a much more visible part of public life. And I definitely know some Catholics who believe that everything was better before the Revolution. But they are a minority within a minority, and apart from them, when it comes to freedom of religion, I'm unaware of any true resentment against our way of doing things. Amongst Catholics, at least.

[@monogreen]

As a Kiwi this video is a real eye-opener. I never really understood American Christianity, and looking at it through the lens of the Protestant Ethic completely blows my mind. The Protestant Ethic sounds completely nuts to me and it shocks me to my core that so many people both believe and build their entire lives around it. I'm utterly Gobsmacked while also feeling that this explains so much.

[@coobbyo]

As an Christian American that just about sums up my feelings on the matter

[@monogreen]

In fact it blows my mind so much I can feel myself going through the 5 stages of grief. Starting with this can't possibly be a real thing right? That this belief governs a large amount of American Politics?

[@sarahhirsch8919]

​@@monogreenYou have no idea. Evangelical Christians who are trying to bring about end times are pretty much the reason why our foreign policy in the Middle East is what it is. I know that sounds insane, but it's true.

[@user-th1pv6ks5o]

​​@@monogreen My state recently unconstitutionally took over the board of education. And the new name is the "Department of education and workforce," if that contextualizes anything for you. Also you can look at how many right leaning people see Unions in this country. I would say the anti-union sentiment is a very direct look at this concept.

[@BulletRain100]

The Protestant Work Ethic is a disputed theory that emerge during a time of heightened anti-Catholicism. Puritanism was largely gone before the American Revolution, and American Christianity has gone through multiple revival movements that really caused it to diverge from the rest of the world. An alternate explanation is that the Protestant Work Ethics really just describe the traits that would cause a man who is a farmer on the frontier to be successful and rise as a leading member of their community. It's telling that people of all denominations, even Catholics, present the same work ethic when farming on the frontier. The reason the impact of the frontier is greater in the US than other settler states such as New Zealand is because it took almost 300 years for the frontier in the United States to actually be settled.

[@TheVonWeasel]

My mom bought in to the whole Pokemon being pure evil and teaching you to "worship hindu gods" because the names of the pokemon were the names of the hindu gods. When I gave her like 50 examples of pokemon names not being even remotely related to that she grounded me for even knowing that info to begin with >_

[@16-BitGuy]

i think she also grounded you in the first place for proving her being wrong

[@Kiezly]

pokemon's worst sin on humanity is being the annual release same game over and over like a Sports game or COD game lmao.

[@princesspikachu3915]

@@KiezlyThey haven’t done that since 2018. Now it’s just DLC for the extra version.

[@headphonesaxolotl]

@@Kiezly The 3 year cycle of New generation, Remake, Spinoff.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

This is the issue with many Conservative types: It's more about Blind Faith & Acceptance and being an Unfalllible Parent.

[@yugoprowers]

As a Christian, gamer, enjoy-er of anime, and American living in the southeast I never understood the attacks on games, and anime. This was very informative thank you.

[@Psx806]

Well I mean how far you going to go to defend anime? I draw a line with it but otherwise I do agree.

[@HOLDENPOPE]

says the person with what appears to be an anime profile picture, unless I misunderstood your reply@@Psx806

[@upublic]

@@Psx806 back off, he has the power of god and anime on his side :)

[@marioluigijam3612]

Well it makes sense. As a fellow Christian gamer and Weeb I find particularly in the anime community there are large swaths of it that are quite lewd. In the case of video games it makes sense with some of the foul language and content. And unfortunately since most Christians parents weren’t gamers they cast out all the don’t understand.

[@nikkonstantik2980]

@@Psx806 its simple in japan you have anime made from japanese for japanese, here you have media made from people of group (((A))) made for people of group B which people of group A dislike so you get christian symbolism stigmatized or portrayed as smth evil. In meantime you can see japanese using christian symbolism as something exotic (not necessarily in bad sense) to convey a message(which is mostly not a bad message).

[@Aanzeijar]

The "you spent three hours listening to Jacob Geller" line hit hard. Why do you know me, who just stumbled on this video by chance?

[@i_fish6657]

Same

[@koniginator]

I can't believe you didn't bring up Luigi's Mansion, as we all know Luigi is a good boy and a God-Fearing Christian.

[@Hawkatana]

Yeah, but he's a Catholic. The video is mostly about Protestantism.

[@okamiway4227]

Luigi is officially atheist didn't you read the wiki?

[@Hawkatana]

@@okamiway4227 That was wiki vandalism, Luigi is a practicing Catholic and an exorcist.

[@Deses]

​@@HawkatanaI hope we can get rid of the speedrunning demon soon.

[@ramonmujica3193]

You're confused. That's Kirby.

[@BenjaMage]

To add onto the discussion of Christian games and why we haven't seen many beyond the educational ones, there's a quote from game developer Jon Burton that comes to mind. For quick context, Jon Burton was the co-founder and former head of Traveller's Tales, the dev studio behind the modern Lego games. But before then, TT had done games for other IPs and some of their own original games, one of which being a passion project of Jon Burton's called "Haven: Call of the King". It wasn't a Christian game in the traditional sense, but had a lot of intentional Christian allegories, and when discussing the matter, Jon Burton had this to say: "The storyline was written to be an allegory of the Christian Gospel. As a Christian, I have always wanted to try and create a 'Christian' game, but that is incredibly difficult as the whole basis of Christianity is for you to give your life to Jesus, and trust and pray to God for help and guidance. That doesn't make for the best gameplay [...] In games, you want to be the hero, and Christianity is all about humility, which is the opposite of you being the hero. However, C.S. Lewis wrote a popular story which was an allegory of the Gospel, called "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe". He created a compelling story with pro-active characters, that also had a gospel message. So that's what I tried to do with Haven." Also on that note, as a lifelong Christian and game enthusiast, I quite enjoyed this video!

[@Roxor128]

Before I watched this, I thought the American obsession with work was just weird. Now that I have an idea of how over-the-top it really is, I think it's insane. I think this might actually explain why there's so much in the way of "culture war" nonsense among American politicians. They're always making a fuss over stuff that doesn't actually matter because the Protestant work ethic _is actively hostile to the fundamentals of _*_culture itself._* I don't know if they realise it or not, but the constant focus on productivity as a virtue and laziness as a vice is hostile to the very concept of leisure time, _which is a prerequisite to even participate in culture._ Nobody is going to be able to create or consume culture if they don't have the time to do it. These people's idea of the ideal person is an industrial robot! Endlessly productive, but utterly lifeless.

[@matteste]

Seriously, it is like the more I learn about American culture, the more I become convinced that it is a whole country driven by pure madness and the more disgusted I become with it and how it seems to constantly want to spread to everywhere else.

[@XerxesTexasToast]

I think the idea is that if you're working all the time you can't sin, and also something about free will not existing to begin with due to determinism or the concept of the elect or something

[@fluidthought42]

You have to understand that Puritianism in itself was a counter-reaction to Catholicism and monarchism, and as institutions very much bloated with luxury and opulence. The Puritian obsession with "simple living" was a consequence of this opposition, and thus the idea of relaxing necessarily (in the Puritan worldview) also aligns with luxury, sin or both (especially since there was scant little fun to be had by your average Joe that wasn't with booze, gambling and whores).

[@archsteel7]

@@fluidthought42 Ironically, it's almost come back onto itself where the rich are allowed to live lives of bloated luxury and opulence under the very rules puritanism put in place. After all, obviously God *wants* these people to be successful or they wouldn't have all this free money and power.

[@fluidthought42]

@@archsteel7 Oh protestants in the US revealed their hypocrisy much earlier, trust.

[@scout8145]

I was raised Catholic in the US, but it’s fascinating to learn where the things I was taught did/didn’t overlap with Protestant-derived ideas. At least when I was a kid, there was not a lot of easily available Catholic media appropriate for children, so we often ended up watching things like Veggie Tales on free days at school. The non-Catholic lessons didn’t really stand out, even to many adults, simply because they were so deeply American. But on the other hand, I remember being weirded out by the child-friendliness of the Christian Vacation Bible School decorations at a local community center, and I couldn’t articulate why. Also, you’ve indirectly answered a question I’ve had for a long time: why are the churches of non-Catholic Christians sometimes so much less ornate than Catholic churches? It seems that the answer is because of a different approach to art. To me, ornateness means you spent time, money, and space on this. But other Christians see the simplicity and efficiency as more important, and I can absolutely respect that.

[@VioletCatastrophe]

It also has roots in original protestant criticisms of the lavish displays of wealth present in Catholic places of worship too. For many, the capital-C Church was seen as corrupt, siphoning wealth through the sale of indulgences and other such practices. The austerity and modesty in that regard is a deliberate break in form.

[@simplyeyeronic1443]

I think one of the more interesting things about the church that I went to as a child was that the church itself was a small part of the whole area. The biggest building there was probably something similar to a cafeteria. It even had a kitchen attached. It was mostly used to bring meals to the community.

[@MrDj232]

There's also the issue of budget. Catholic churches are attached to a larger wealthier organization. I grew up Lutheran, and none of the churches I've been to had more than a couple hundred regulars. They were all working on shoe string budgets and staff consisted of a lone pastor. Maybe with some teachers working in an attached school that barely had enough students to stay open. Things like cleaning and community outreach were handled, and funded, pretty much entirely by volunteers.

Games caused shootings? Majority of kids I knew as a child played violent games like DOOM or GTA, and this is true to this day. There were no school shootings in my country's whole existence. How are people still drawing connection to the games? Does not make any sense.

[@malachitep4276]

Easier to scapegoat something than actually tackle an issue!

[@What-he5pr]

American so-called parents devote all their energy to working outside of the home. Media is used to pacify the children.

[@vylbird8014]

Obviously violent media causes school shootings, because if it doesn't then the gun control people would have a solid argument.

[@timothymclean]

The real causes of mass shootings are complicated-a mixture of lax gun culture, contradictory cultural values, increasing social alienation, an uncertain future, news media which draws attention to dramatic events in the name of profit, and countless other factors. Solving any one of these factors requires confronting a part of our value system, an institution, or both, figuring out how it went wrong, and forcing it to change in a way which goes against the interests of people with power. Identifying the cause as an external factor which can simply be banned is appealing.

[@rapchee]

@@timothymclean "The real causes of mass shootings are complicated" - no, it's pretty simple, anyone can buy a gun on a whim, elsewhere it's a long procedure

[@TannerOfTheNorth]

Something I want to point out is that sometimes games that aren't Christian but will have Christianity mentioned in an interesting way. I recently played Witch on the Holy Night, a Japanese Visual Novel set in 1980s Japan. One of the major locations in the game is the church, with a priest and nun as side characters. And while the "church" leans a lot into the JRPG notion of "those crazy western magic users! Holy powers!" there is one of the most heartfelt and interesting conversations between the rural shintoist main character and the Catholic Priest on why people join the church. It's super raw, and paints neither a positive nor negative picture of the religion. It's incredible, and something that I was shocked to read about in a decisively non-Christian game. In fact, I think this game was the only video I've ever played that talked about Mass and the Eucharist. It was so intriguing. and honestly helped me reconcile a bit with my distancing of the church itself while still retaining a bit of my own beliefs. I really want to see more examples of the church being discussed in this way in more games.

[@Duiker36]

I mean, it's not an accident that he's using clips from Bioshock Infinite.

[@zeloraz8101]

Do you have a link to a video or something where I can see that conversation it sounds very interesting. Am not into playing VN games but id love to read it lol

[@TannerOfTheNorth]

@@zeloraz8101 check out 1:22:42 for a conversation between a priest and a character. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6O2nXahf8lsmbcsi=XtBY4kLEwta2l6H0

[@kittycatdreamz]

@@zeloraz8101 Same here! It sounds interesting.

[@rubemartur8239]

Could you put the references from the VN? sounded interesting the references from Mass and Eucharisty.

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

How incredible is this video. I'm a Canadian Catholic who has puzzled over this problem a lot, and I can now clearly see that the household I was raised in was heavily informed by the Protestant Ethic, at least as far as video games are concerned. My goal as a storyteller has always been to share my faith without falling into those pitfalls you mentioned, of low production quality, derivativeness, and didacticity. This video is a real eye-opener (and a riot), thank you!

[@AnonimusQualquer]

I say there is at least one heavily christian-based game that is very good that comes to mind recently. The Faith trilogy is a good horror game and inspired by the author’s religiosity and experience. Wendigoon made an amazing video explaining the story of Faith and even had the chance to talk with the author/developer of the games. I recommend it!

[@richfiles]

Can concur. I followed some play throughs of Faith, and I watched the whole Wendigoon video. Love his content, and I'm glad he took notice of Faith as well.

[@trustytrest]

My hyperconservative Christian parents hate the games and refused to listen to them at all after they say the tagline "The Unholy Trilogy". That alone was enough for a pair of Bible Belters to refuse to even try to look into the games. So while Faith is still good and by a Christian man, it seems American Protestant Values still shun it...

[@SerratedSkies]

​@@trustytrestnot that American christians shunning the actual positive elements/outcomes of their faith is a new thing.

[@roryschussler]

​@@trustytrestThat kind of hits the nail on the head as far as what the video was saying. Christian games are bad, poorly made and overly preachy because that's what sells to an audience that wants Christian games. If a Christian game maker wants to create actual good art, they have to depart from hammering bible verses into your head on every other screen. But when they depart from that, overly religious parents will no longer recognize them as "Christian".

[@Galo_do_drip]

As a Christian, I remember the first time I played Megami Tensei and I was like: nothing better than punching the devil and then fighting with God. (In persona 3 I fell out of my chair when I saw Messiah).

[@karazu121]

Did you also fel out of your chair when you saw revolver jesus? (takaya)

[@davidgibbs-ms6ol]

I love those games

[@andrearenaudo9045]

And then you have Persona 5 when you summon Satan to shoot the gnostic demiurge in the face

[@TheAzureNightmare]

​@@andrearenaudo9045Satanael ≠ Satan. More like an Angel in a heretical regime that realizes: "Hey! This false God doesn't love Jesus! PILLAGE THEM!!!" *CUE OUR BEGINNING AND SINFUL SHELL*

[@genericaccount4571]

There’s genuinely nothing more cathartic as a Catholic to play SMT and be able to fight with the Archangels and Heralds, wiping hordes of demons never felt so amazing! (And SMT overall is just a really damn good analysis of morality, I love it!)

[@gunpuncher3817]

I happen to follow a lot of European pundits and commentators, and whenever they encounter America's obsessive, borderline toxic relationship with work, their reaction is almost always one of confusion, especially when they hear stories of how little holiday and sick time businesses give people as compared to most of Europe, and the sometimes-extreme lack of willingness of managers to accommodate their employees. I've been wondering why American work culture is like this, and I always figured Puritanism had a lot to do with it, but I never quite realized just how deeply ingrained the Protestant Ethic is in every aspect of American society until you laid it out the way you did. What's funny is that it if you look at the history of the United States, it seems like this Protestant Ethic has always been fundamentally at odds with the ethical principles of freedom and self-determination that this country was founded upon. And the back and forth between the moral puritans in the country and the new vanguards of cultural change every few decades or so seem to evidence this. I'm Muslim and lived in a Black Household, so I grew up mostly mystified at the Christian moral panics in the 2000s, and I never had the proximity to really understand why these Christian groups were so viscerally, vehemently opposed to any cultural influence they couldn't control, even if it made them completely blind to the culture changing around them. Even speaking from a Christian perspective, you do a very good job breaking down the cultural genealogy so a complete know-nothing like me can actually understand how everything links together. I do wonder though, these culture wars we find ourselves in: is this just the natural end point where another religious reformation would have been sparked if our culture was still mostly Christian? Is this just the Protestant Ethic finally reaching the limits of its influence in society and America as a culture harshly thrashing about for something different?

[@IshtarNike]

Oh it's definitely at odd with freedom and self determination for everyone. But the country was a slave state when it was founded so there's a big clue to the open secret that they NEVER meant freedom and self determination for all. It was just so obvious to them that black people, women, gay people, you name it, weren't included in the "self evident truths". In fact they'd have argued that it was in fact self evident that African slaves were not "men" as referenced in the text. Women are obviously not men either! I'm not aiming this at you but it's kind of ridiculous how we read back modern sensibilities into 18th century political philosophy as if they genuinely meant "all human beings" when they clearly meant "all upper class property owning white men". No, the Protestant work ethic is the propaganda tool used by those rich white guys to justify their oppression of everyone else as they built American capitalism on stolen labour AND stolen land. Work for the African slave and work for the white plantation owner were very different things. A plantation owner could do five hours work at his papers a day and call himself hard working. The slave on the other hand...well we know what happened there. It's propaganda pure and simple and it keeps all poor and middle class people eagerly working hard in order to be virtuous while the rich piss down on us and call it rain.

[@graveyardshift6691]

Would it surprise you as a Muslim to learn that the US is just another case of the Sunni and Shia conflict between Catholicism and every other denomination? While your Sunni and Shia conflict is still ongoing to this day with them still trying to eradicate the other with bloody conflicts then peaceful coexistance, Christians settled that dispute peacefully centuries ago. Was not the case back in the medieval era. The Catholic Church became the dominate denomination and decided they were the 'one true faith' of Christianity. The term 'protestant' came from the 'protest' that the 'other faction' levied against this religious persecution. Yes, Christianity had its own bloody civil war with the denominations trying to kill each other. The Catholics won. The only two major holdouts were what is today Britan and Germany. Sound familiar to your Sunni and Shia tuned brain? When the 'New World' was discovered and the British Navy beat the Spanish Armada, it opened up a new opportunity for those tired of living with the threat of religious persecution and move far away. Protestant, Methodist, Angelcane, Quaker, the list of everything 'not-catholic' came over. Even Catholics who weren't considered 'Catholic enough' came over to avoid getting caught up in the purity spirals. And also for economic work/money reasons. *Glances at the Irish* While the idea of 'separation of church and state' is not explicitly spelled out in American Law and is only mentioned in a letter by one of the Founding Fathers, the spirit of such is in American Law. It was done specifically because they wanted to prevent another 'Centralized Catholic Church' where blood was shed and one religion didn't just rule the people but had NO Governmental Power the way the Catholic Church did over the population and even kings. Hence why the First Amendment spells out the spirit of 'Separation of Church and State' by the First Amendment enshrining 'Freedom of Religion'. This to ensure that no single Religion ever has the power over individuals and encourages anything like the old Catholics vs. Everybody Else bloodshed. A peace between all enforced by Common Law. Enough people however were 'vaguely Christian' enough that 'Christianity' is the leading recognized religion in the states. Fractured into the denominations as it is. In regards to the 'Moral Panic' you reference of the '00s. You're off by about 20 years. The 'Satanic Panic' kicked in in the 1980s. It was a direct response to the Hippy 'Flower Child' movement of the 60s which itself was a response to the horrors of WWII. THANKS FRANCE. But back to the Hippy 60s. This was also during the 'sexual revolution' when birth control pills were starting to come into wider circulation and were the safest they've ever been. Reliable contraception that freed women from children without killing them helped kick off the idea of 'free love' which started one of the greatest backslidings of morals and ethics that even I can agree with the Puritans on. The 'lack of consequences' slowly eroding away adulthood creating the generations of adult-children we have today. This terrified the Puritans and other zealots as 'the temptations of the Devil made manifest as foretold by the Bible'. So the truth of the Satanic Panic of the 80s is a bunch of extremists became religious Zealots and lashed out at 'The Eletric Lucifer'. This is where video games and Gamers come into the picture. Those who weren't religious nutjobs but still Christians disavowed their psychotic extremists and the rest of the populace lurched into action of socially beating them down as the lunatics they were. The 'Moral Panic' you reference of the 00s is the dying throes of those fringe groups. Sadly this had the consequence of making Christianity very unpopular among the common man and THIS is why there are no actual 'good' Christian games. Gamers don't trust them after all the 'demonization' they went through during the 80s and 90s. DOOM is perhaps the only widely accepted 'Good' Christian game because who doesn't love being a total badass and slaughtering your way through hell killing demons who frankly would do the same to you? The fall of Christianity left a power vacuum in the religious sphere. It's still here mostly out of near 300 years of tradition but there's a void waiting to be filled. This is where the current Culture Wars are stemming from. You have an Atheist movement on 'Progressivism' built around a 'Post-modernist' ideology and the momentum of Atheism on the fall of Christianity, 'see? Nothing good comes of religion, throw it out entirely.'. Again though, 250 years can't just be thrown in the trash and the lack of morals as a result of a lack of consequences due to the Hippy Era is permitting Christianity a fighting chance. The honest truth being that humans do require some form of belief system to function on a psychological level or they go mad being in front of us. The culture war nor the lack of any 'good' Christian games is due to Protestant ethics. That's bullshit Catholic propaganda trying to start up the old feud. Again like the feud between Sunni and Shia. Again you should know how that plays out. You are Muslim after all. What it IS is the result of extremists being disavowed on one side but encouraged on the other leading to a downfall of what is 'acceptable' in the gaming sphere and socially on a whole. And yes, I'm Methodist raised for the record. I'm in staunch opposition to the Catholic idea that only select people are permitted to enter Heaven. Other than that, Catholics are a decent bunch.

[@gunpuncher3817]

@@IshtarNike That's distinctly incorrect. The institution of Slavery was a dividing issue in this Country from its very founding, and the Founding Fathers were keenly aware of the incompatibility of Slavery with the principles of the Constitution, hence Jefferson outlawing the Atlantic Slave Trade in 1805. I think you misunderstand the meaning of modern sensibilities as it applies to the 18th and 19th century. It's not that Slavery was not a moral issue; it's been a moral issue plaguing all societies for the entirety of recorded history. The differences in sensibilities are the moral questions being asked at the time, in this case being "How do we reconcile the fundamental right of all human beings to be free men with the property rights of the citizenry emancipation affects?" What a lot of people forget is that, immoral or not, Slavery was still a legal institution that people built capital and even took debt on. It's an extremely difficult thing to fathom from a modern perspective, but unilaterally freeing slaves instantly and all at once would be effectively punishing a significant portion of the productive citizenry for engaging in an institution that was up to that point perfectly legal. In addition, slaves being capital also meant they could be used as collateral for debt, which many people, - including Thomas Jefferson - did, meaning that you wouldn't be able to free them even if you wanted to. Not without leaving a massive monetary gap in the economy. Looking at it that way, it makes sense that the issue of abolition remained so contentious for so long, especially for a Country less than a Century old. Ultimately, Slavery was a moral issue before it was a legal one, meaning that the battle would have had to be won through moral arguments, persuasion, and changing minds, rather than a unilateral legal move, which is a process that takes a long time. A lot of abolitionists had hoped that the institution would be gradually phased out over time as slavery proved itself to be woefully inefficient, as it has always proven itself to be throughout history. Rather unfortunately, the Civil War happened, and emancipation ended up being a poorly planned hail-hary that we're still feeling the cultural effects of to this very day.

[@DoomnDust]

​@@graveyardshift6691wtf are you babbling on about....

[@LegendStormcrow]

​​@@gunpuncher3817People tend to forget that it was ever a debate back then. Even the laws saying minorities were kind of coded into law before, but conveniently ignored by the rich scumbags who came to the "New World" with money because slaves were "property."

[@tvguts]

I like your editing style! And I liked seeing Coach Z's breakdance loop in the Dance Praise segment, hah. Whenever I think of Christian Games, I honestly think of DOOM. One of the developers was Mormon, and apparently didn't see a problem with the demonic imagery because, you know, they're the bad guys. Doomguy is literally about a devout catholic fighting his way through hell. Can't get more christian than that.

[@DannyBeans]

Agreed. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, the point of a story about monsters is that monsters can be *beaten*.

[@310McQueen]

That's the way I thought about Diablo II. It's literally a hero slaying demons. Just substitute the use of sorcery as a weapon for something else (or do what I did and just play as a paladin or barbarian).

[@Dr.Freeman...]

who says hes catholic?

[@Lunar_Spell]

I didn't expect a video with Larry the Cucumber in the thumbnail to explain to me so clearly why I, a neurodivergent woman raised in a southern pentecostal church and religious school system, was so heavily ostracized and condescended to all my life. God made me special, indeed.

[@ajbXYZcool]

And He loves you very much.

[@BMoser-bv6kn]

@@ajbXYZcool If only Larry were real : (

[@CptSourcebird]

As someone who was Roman Catholic, seeing you explain the Protestant Ethic, and then use that same context to fully show late 20th Century America straight up put everything I felt around those situations into perspective, especially when I used to see these facts of history when I was younger and didn't get it. As someone coming from the Philippines, I genuinely thank you for explaining to me what American Christianity is.

[@ryith]

I was surprised @moon-channel didn't mention the game El Shaddai. You play as Enoch. It was an artistic beauty of a game and was very fun. It had a Devil May cry gameplay style with some side scrolling, cleverly mixed style of boss fights including a racing style. The bosses were a handful of the first few fallen angels and you fight the Nephilim as well.

[@KasumiRINA]

Technically, I would separate Old Testament-based media as more built on Jewish myths and legends than Christianity specifically, like who the hell thinks Metallica's Creeping Death (Exodus retelling) as example of "Christian Rock?"

[@corvacopia]

@@KasumiRINAthe Christian perspective on Jewish stories though is often very different from the Jewish one, so it really depends on the perspective of the media

[@matthewjalovick]

I’m a devout Christian. I think one of the most frustrating aspects of evangelicalism is its emphasis on the “heart” and the “feels” as opposed to the head and intellectual rigor. One of my favorite scholars, Mark Noll, wrote a book entitled The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, in which he writes, “The scandal of the evangelical mind is there isn’t much of an evangelical mind.” Essentially, we’ve traded actually wrestling through our existence in time and space for once per week emotional feel good sermons. It sucks and it’s a disservice to the quality of intellectual pursuits many in the church were known for over the last two millennia. Christians, myself being one, have a responsibility to honor God in what we do… that doesn’t mean saying how awesome he is. That means making the best in whatever career or vocation we find ourselves. Don’t put out mediocre crap. Wrestle with the wild existential terror of being anything at all. Anyway… no idea if that related to anything in the video :) I’ll get down from the pulpit now.

[@btdtpro]

I agree. While I do think the bible does say feelings are super important, with verses like, "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." In a way, feeling that aren't based on knowledge are empty, and likewise, there are many things we can "know", but if they don't impact us emotionally, do we really know them? I.e. "Whoa I just heard a hundred people were killed in a bombing, including many children" this may affect your emotions to some degree, but know as much as if you truly knew it, like you were walking though the rubble and bodies, and hearing the crying and screaming. Sometimes the lack of feelings help us understand that we don't know something just because we read or heard about it. I often think it's interesting that God told Adam not the eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, but since God told him, then Adam "knew" what was evil before he eat the fruit, but it wasn't till he ate the fruit that he truly had the knowledge of good and evil, because he had done evil.

[@endplanets]

But it really isn't a mystery why its all feels and no facts. Because people who believe in facts leave and people who believe in feels stay. That's why the easiest way to become an Atheist is to just read the Bible. When Samson murders innocent 30 people to steal their clothing to fulfill a bet he lost, or Elisha summons two bears who maul 42 kids to death because they called him bald, or the the Bible says the moon generates its own light, or Jesus gets mad at and places a curse on a tree... everyone who can think critically is just going to walk away.

[@WizardIllustrator]

Hmmm...I think the world is slowly turning two philosophy or idealogoies as you say it. "The emotions vs intelligence"... Slowly, people are leaning towards emotions while few remain in the intelligence because the more you know, the more you are crippled how unsimple choices are given the consequences versus having faith that everything will work out and remaining bliss of the "consequences".

[@LadyHulkX]

​@@btdtprowell said

[@ErikNilsen1337]

I argue that this criticism also applies to mainline Christians, like Moony, as much as Evangelicals. While the mainline denominations are right to emphasize Jesus's commands to love our neighbor and to show compassion even to people who disagree with or despise our values, they frequently do so at the expense of Jesus's commands to still maintain holy values. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20, NIV) It is indeed Christlike to work out how to compassionately and winsomely approach individuals who identify with the LGBT movement, to genuinely listen to them and to grieve for their callous treatment by the church. It is absolutely unchristlike, however, to condone and to affirm a lifestyle (not to be confused with orientation) that is antithetical to God's design of creation and his explicitly revealed intent for human marriage and sexuality (including, but not limited to, the vapid espousal of the slogan "trans rights"). That second part is not informed by the biblical model of compassion, nor by a transformed, renewed mind, but by mere emotional appeal. It becomes compassion without moral standards, which is at least as detrimental to the individual and to society as the legalism and judgmentalism promulgated by the worst excesses of Evangelicalism.

[@reenchanted]

“The elderly and aged among you might remember Jack Thompson”… ouch, man. 😂 Such a great video, Moony. Thanks for sharing.

[@MagnusMoerkoereJohannesen]

Yeah, that one hit hard! 😅

[@telerobotic]

Flowers for Jack, tho

[@Alexis-vv5bk]

Straight up, you are Christian enough. Any "Christian" who tells you that you aren't Christian enough is a jerk. Had someone harass me in the library trying to tell me about their denomination. When I told them I was already Christian, a Catholic, they chuckled and said "that's not real Christianity." I was gobsmacked by their rudeness. The oldest denomination??? OK LADY. Anyway, I'm not practicing anymore but anyone who tries to tell you you aren't "Christian enough" lacks love in their heart. You're awesome and I appreciate you.

[@Adentella]

Those christians you're talking about are most likely blinded, disobeying god's will by being judgeful of you and being prideful abt it... What should've been done is just reminders about the actions, and not about it being christian enough! I'm sorry that our brothers n' sisters have hurt you but always remember Jesus loves ya and have a nice day as well!❤

[@matthewmccoyd2578]

@@Adentella I know, right? I'm pretty sure using God's name to spread hate amongst His children is considered using said name in vain.

[@Bionickpunk]

Orthodoxy is one oldest denominations, which includes Eastern Roman Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and Nestorians. Catholics didnt come into play until half a millennia later with the Great Schism of the 11th century.

[@RadarFinsR]

@@Bionickpunk Technically speaking they both date back much further, both to pre Orthodoxy times before the East West Schism of rome creating the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the 11th century. Actually technically speaking the Jewish Christians(like Jesus, ethnically jewish but Christian) would have been the first Christians in modern day Palestine but at the time Christian worship would have been Illegal so it was done in secret leading to the traditions of the Apostles. This is furthermore made muddy by both groups Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics considering themselves to be the "true successor" of pre Schism-Christianity N.B. I'm not Christian but I went to catholic school and am rather learned on the topic of world religions as a rebellious way to be a little shit back in class.

[@Fawriel]

I can’t get over those “bruh zone” images. I genuinely love how your vibe combines the educated tone of a professor with the warmth of a father figure, and yet there’s these moments that feel disarmingly *adorable.* It’s… wonderful, truly.

[@artemis_studios6555]

As a Christian, I don't like to say that certain things I do "are" or "aren't Christian". I strive to do all things in a Christ-like spirit and apply all good things to glorify God. I am Presbyterian and really admire both the Dutch Reformed Church and your thoughts on these two things that both my Christian parents and secular friends would deem completely incompatible.

[@janedoe3043]

If life is a test, then God really is the worst teacher ever. Because all these people are passing wrong answers around and no one is addressing the issue. If a teacher did that all their kids would fail and they would be fired. So objectively there has to be a right Christianity and the wrong one of life is a test. If there is predetermined, then it's inherently unfair and pointless to the people who 'lose.'. which sort of makes no sense in a way because it's not benevolent or perfect and therefore completely undoes the concept of omnipotence and omnipresence. It's a major paradox. The thing that really bothers me is if you believe in predetermination and have any sort of empathy for the people who are destined to be losers in the cosmic spiritual play, then Satan is the champion of the people for saying that system is wrong in the same way that someone who stant against a dictator is objectively right to criticize injustice. There's likely some sort of compromise in these ideas but it would involve something outside these understandings. But basically, American Christianity is completely irreconcilable with empathy and the concept of God IMO. Saying you aren't there to decide what is Christian is like choosing not to decide. You still have made a choice. What is Christ like is still an interpretation of what you have been given, which does include Calvinism or Catholicism. I am not attacking you, just trying to logically work out how there's a flaw with anything you decide on this.

[@artemis_studios6555]

Awesome reply! I do believe in predestination, but it I would never say that someone is "destined" to go to heaven or not in my own life because I do not have that knowledge or authority. I'm not blind, either. I understand how a lot of people are really frustrated by the concept of predestination because it feels unfair or conceited. I would say this: God made everything and exists outside of the restraints of time. He is fully aware of absolutely everything that will ever happen in existence. Humans sinned, and had to pay the price for the sin. He sent his son to pay the debt and save those who believe. Those who believe are called to put their entire lives towards telling others about this great news. I think of that one quote that says something about how a critic of life says that we are all just players on a great stage, every action predetermined, with the counterresponse being that we have complete and total autonomy over what we are going to do and have no idea how the play will run its course. Human sin and its consequences is a lot of things, but unfair is not one of them. Any one of us in Adam or Eve's position would have given into temptation, and if you don't believe it, just try not to give into small temptations, even for a day. Predestination isn't just some doctrine, because it literally has to be a truth, no matter what God exists. Being omnipotence, omniscient, and omnipresent, he HAS to know exactly what's going to happen. It's not truthful, however, to assume that because it has been predestined who will join God, that those who don't aren't given a choice. I have found that God is infinitely graceful by forgiving those who believe in him of their own accord, whether or not he knew beforehand aside. What would be fair is to damn the entire human race, but God doesn't. It is made very clear in the Bible that God gave humans the autonomy to make their own decisions. Basically, God gives us the choice, but he knows exactly what choice we are going to make. This is why I feel compelled to share the gospel, and why any Christian evangelizes in the first place. I don't agree with the puritans, however. I don't think that anyone should say whether or not someone is "destined for heaven" or not because its not known to us. I think that we can only know in our heart if we've been saved, and not through good works (those should come just from loving Jesus so much that we can't help but do them) but through faith that we were all born sinful and offered a way to freedom by an infinitely graceful God. Sorry if you had to read that, but thanks for the comment!@@janedoe3043​

[@JohnDBlue]

Well said, Artemis. I would say that if a person with Christian values makes a product that they consider true to their values, it needn't be outwardly Christian at all. Indeed like Lord of the Rings - whether I personally think it's Christian doesn't really matter (I don't, for the record, but that may simply be because I view it through my own lens)

[@BlackMoonHowls]

That Christian DDR game was so bad that the church I attended with a friend, actually had the real DDR one for the PS2. That says a lot.

[@artemis_studios6555]

lol@@BlackMoonHowls

[@orngjce223]

I want to connect the recent trend of "self-care" here. Self-care as I learned it was an act of radical self-love in defiance of letting these ideas of work ethic destroy your humanity. Then corporate America discovered the term, and it has become megacorporations sponsoring meditation classes and sleep coaching for their employees with the express purpose of preventing burnout to keep people working better in the long term. (Well, that and a marketing term for bath bombs.) What about me, you might ask? I'm a secular Buddhist from a long line thereof. As far as _I'm_ concerned, the US military teaching mindfulness to soldiers to reduce future cases of PTSD is an act of violent cultural appropriation. In several Buddhist sects, the type of meditation taught to laypeople is loving-kindness: concentrating on, and cultivating, a selfless love and care for all living beings. And yet the meditation that the West stole is mindfulness: the self-abnegation that in context should only be learned _after_ cultivating a universal compassion. You are only supposed to destroy the self _after_ experiencing being connected with everything. They didn't even steal it the right way. Yoga is entry-level meditation, using focusing on the body as an introductory to eventually focusing on breath. Breath based meditation is the advanced course; of _course_ many people bounce off it.

[@cynthiasoolihua2410]

Moony I think this was your best video since the JRPG video. The pacing, little gags punctuating digestible but thorough historical facts, the heartwarming and uplifting message bow-wrapping it all together and the post-credits song (you are a great Baritone!) kept me fully engaged for all ~50 minutes As a Southeast Asian I had no clue that the Protestant way of life is so restrictive and it explains a great deal of why American Christianity seems so, pardon me, extreme to people outside the US. It's always struck me that a lot of people seemingly cannot marriage being of Faith and engaging with the beauty in the world (other identities, cultures, activities of the world i.e gaming, s3x, etc.) despite the fact that embracing (not mere tolerance, but embracing) nuance and diversity has a profoundly positive impact on everyone's wellbeing. If God loves all and all are under God then why are people ostracising, subjugating, persecuting or doing worse to others just being themselves? Funnily enough, though the Castlevania games have lines such as "I am the morning sun, come to vanquish this horrible night" and "I am the blade to banish all evil" spoken by Shanoa in Order of Ecclesia, under Protestant view those games are still Not Christian Enough because, for eg, Shanoa is a spellcaster... despite the fact she is 1) a member of a Church, 2) kills evil nightmare monsters, 3) saves an entire village of people 4) is dressed very modestly and 5) is an instrument of Good in the face of Evil. That's why imo values of holiness (or in a general sense, goodness) are not inherent to your clothes or your religious belief or what recreational activity you choose to do but in your action towards others in need of help and holding steadfast to good morality and ethics.

[@Leiliel1]

I think we might be able to blame the Protestant Work Ethic for that Shanoa issue too - because genuine magic implies that people can "cheat" on a cosmic basis, and get power that doesn't rely on being in the Calvinist good book. And thus, it's Not American, because if one can actually do things without as much pain, and work towards knowledge rather than capital...

[@ramonmujica3193]

Shanoa is Catholic though. I know because she's my waifu.

[@davidarvingumazon5024]

*"If God loves all and all are under God then why are people ostracising, subjugating, persecuting or doing worse to others just being themselves?"* I've seen enough pattern of this, makes me face palm, no need further explanation of my disagreeing with your assumptions, since I've seen this same pattern of thoughts over and over, throughout many people. God = loves all Blame = people did it Mix together and boom, illogical justification. Congratulations. If you disagree, then ignore it, saves our time.

[@WokioWolfy]

​@davidarvingumazon5024 hello ignorant!

[@WokioWolfy]

​@davidarvingumazon5024 also, when was it illogical? God is literally a fictional character for the idea of how the world was made for finding a reason to why we exist.

[@LilacMonarch]

I always found it so bizarre how the pursuit of wealth was portrayed as "Christian" when that's like...y'know, Jesus's whole thing about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Lmao Christian myself btw

[@F1areon]

Oh they've tried justifying that one loooots of times; the most common one is smth like "well ACTUALLY there was a really big gate called 'The Eye of the Needle' that ANYBODY could pass through so it's okay to pursue wealth as a Christian", or other things vaguely along those lines

[@neo-giu]

The american God is money It's such a huge corruption of christianity, but as wealth brought "good", they just seem to have accepted it.

[@fuge74]

you can pursue wealth, what Jesus was against was greed, as this is a crime against yourself and others. I explained that being a Christian means living with a standard against thought crime.

[@LilacMonarch]

@@fuge74 how often has someone pursued wealth for a reason other than greed? seriously

[@michimatsch5862]

@@LilacMonarch Yeah, that's such a weird line to draw. People really just try to justify why they should be allowed to hoard wealth and exploit others, I mean heck, even some churches do it. Former Catholic that went to church every Sunday and helped in the mass until 24.

[@lanfae9353]

I'm an ex-vangelical and still wrestling with my faith and what I believe, and I felt this really caring analysis of the separation between true theology and protestant fanaticism was honestly very soothing. It's hard to separate what I want to keep from my faith background from what is actively harming me and my mental health, and over the past few years, I've largely distanced myself from Christianity without ever stopping my belief in God. I wasn't expecting this to hit me so hard and be so impactful, but it is. Thank you.

[@fogcomign]

I haven't got the chance to finish the video yet, but the only good Christian game I've ever played is FAITH: the unholy trinity. It's an amazing horror game about trusting god and it's an example of how Christian games SHOULD be done. They should be entertaining first and foremost.

[@4rumani]

That's hardly a Christian game

[@godwin972]

that's moreso "Christianity as a story element" than "Christianity as the main motivator"

[@DrazGames]

@@godwin972 The developer, Airdorf, is a Christian and developed it to be an exploration of a priest and his relationship with his faith, it may not be made to convert people but I'd say that's a pretty Christian game imo

[@hanthonyc]

@@DrazGames I actually didn't know that, thank you for the info!

[@jirehornelastavera3642]

@@DrazGames seminary student here, and theres direct iconography that connects the biblical devil to a character that shows up in game. Theres a passage that talks about Satan taking on pleasant forms for us, sometimes even masquerading as a being of light. There's a scene where the priest is confronted by a being of light while he is scared and wants to escape the exorcism. The being of light says he can take him to safety, but asks him if he's gonna leave the girl in the middle of the exorcism. The being of light then demands him to swear to him. They then call back to this scene when the priest meets Father Garcia and the priest tells him he met the devil. Just a lot of direct references to the Bible, even in its demon iconography, ala being direct flips of biblical concepts. I think one of the most overt ones is the ritual to summon demons in the game, being a reference to the passage where someone asks Jesus how many times we must forgive someone, and he replies "7 times 77," which is how many infants you gotta sacrifice to bring something forth. As a Christian, I can admit, the game is super clever, and I'm fascinated by the story, and I can wait for future instalments in the universe.

[@anotherbacklog]

A few things I learned from moony: - War of Warships is a Christian game - Jrpgs got more reasons to kill god - Americans are actually very religious while they think they are secular - Chao is the destined for heaven - The c-word is associated with Protestant work ethics - Moony doesn’t like Splatoon, inklings dancing is dishonor of god - American Protestants finds joy in pain - Americans believe wealth and status brings you closer to god - Why American fashion and music sucks - Lacrosse is not fun - Games are lewd and Harvest Moon is porn - Games is the perfect scapegoat for social issues - Hillary Clinton thinks violent video games is worse than war - Why self helps gurus and productivity grifting works so well on the Americans - Blasphemous is a Christian game - Shouldn’t watch Jacob Geller for 3 hours, watch moony for one and half hour instead - Where to reference for the argument regarding gaming and art - Hustling is a coping mechanism towards uncertainty - Jigglypuff is evil - If more people can be critical with their believes like Moony, the world will be a better place. Please correct me if I misunderstood anything, which I’m sure I definitely did on many.

[@jamm6_514]

I love every single one of the points here

[@Lemuel928]

A real better video game about Larryboy,right?

[@marcusorta714]

… but Jacob geller is so cool 😢 (too)

[@LairdDeimos]

Watch Geller and moony for 4 1/2 hours.

[@men_del12]

I can only add to you like: -don't underestimate game's "fun" (inserts spongebob song) -veggie tales is already christianly self explanatory on the thumbnail -when developer shoving their beliefs too much, gamers gonna say good bye to their legs The rest is history...or rewrite history

[@PDocDanny]

Bro the way you re-incorporate images is so effective for fully grasping the content. It’s insane how much you do with so little. Very good editing my man.

[@SatoshiSosuke]

Man, listening to this really opened my eyes to how ingrained Christianity is to American culture. Being shamed that a hobby can't be just a hobby. It needs to make you money somehow. Make your hobby into a side hustle.

[@HellecticMojo]

Could explain the sheer obsession of Crypto shills swearing they are having fun playing their crypto game

[@damionmanuel7337]

Well, fake Christianity at least. All those television preacher making themselves rich is not what Christianity is, nor is the people pushing their piety on everyone else against their will, it's just all that's seen by non-Christians. Honestly I don't even attend any Church anymore because most are as corrupt as our governments, but I still believe in God and I live by the teachings of Christ because I believe it's real.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

I feel like this attitude has also infiltrated Canadian culture as well, which makes sense considering how close our roots are as nations.

[@i_fish6657]

that's just capitalisms values of if you don't make a lot of money you don't have value in society and Christianity has very little to do with it and the actual faith says it's hard to be rich and a true Christian.

[@LauraLovesHugs]

@@i_fish6657 capitalism is very closely tied to Christianity in the west and especially in the US.

[@solr313]

This video unlocked something in me. It’s crazy how literally all of this is connected. It’s even starting to creep into video gaming itself, ironically so. See the rise of esports, and how it has affected the culture of gaming in general. Some multiplayer games are getting hard to enjoy casually because everyone is expected to treat it like a sport - only using optimal strategies, following the metagame, etc. Heck, even single player games and more relaxed games like Pokemon aren’t safe from this. Also see the way that some people seem to think catering to the competitive crowd makes a game more “legitimate.” I was previously aware of the “Protestant ethic” but never really thought it went this deep. There’s many, many other things I could mention that make sense in light of it, but I’d be here all day.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Remember that in game theory if an optimal strategy exists, people will optimize the fun out of it. And it doesn't need any esports scene for that. If there is a way that lets you win faster or more comfortably, you will gravitate towards it. In multiplayer that means you use the gear and tactics that will increase your odds of winning, you'll use the meta. And in single player it leads to always playing stealth archer in Skyrim.

[@solr313]

@@HappyBeezerStudios Idk how any of that disproves what I said. I wasn’t saying that optimal strategies don’t exist, but that gaming as a whole has become obsessed with being optimal and efficient to the point it seems many gamers have forgotten how to have fun. You can’t “just” enjoy games anymore, it has to serve some kind of instrumentalist end. Not saying that pro gaming can’t be fun but like. The hobby doesn’t have to be taken 100% seriously all the time. And btw I am not saying the obsession with optimization is just an esports thing. My point is that this is a deeply rooted thing that shows itself in various forms. I’m talking about how any time a new game comes out you’re always pressured to play it “correctly” and master the game as quickly as possible, which IMO completely kills the fun of getting lost in the game and discovering things yourself. Not to mention it leaves little room for gamers who are more interested in the role playing and creative aspects. I still think pokemon is a great example. A fun, casual series aimed at kids where you get attached to cute little monsters has gotten almost completely ruined by grown ass men who treat it like the Olympics.

[@Grandof-the-PentastarAlignment]

This trend towards video games becoming a part-time job on top of your normal job was born out of the Dark Souls/Demon Souls craze of the 2010s. That was a rejection of the casualized games trend of circa 2007-2014 and sought to re-establish the lost aspects of the NES/SNES/Arcade era of the 80s. I can understand people taking pride in achievements but it is a fundamentally different experience that many people reject for the same reason that speedrunning games with or without game-changing glitches makes for very different activities. And the masochistic experience in the 80s specifically was born out of developers desire to create longer play times by just forcing the player to fail more often and replay the same level again and again which offers a more natural way of recycling existing content than the 2000s/10s way of of reskinning the same area or even entire game to create a sequel. If anything it should be seen as what it is, the old-timey version of lazy padding, filler and cash-grabby. There is place for leisure and achievements in their respective niches but defenders of both sides take it to extremes too often with games like Demon Souls basically being unplayable without an affinity for masochism and some walking simulators offering nothing more than an interactive movie wherein the interactive part of the experience could easily be cut out with no effect on the experience. Dark Souls very much has artistic merit with its lore tying into the gameplay perfectly but the experience remains inaccessible to a large portion of people and this kind of inaccessibility was the reason why many people saw games as a waste of time in the 80s and 90s compared to the joy they might bring. The stories behind Dark Souls and Eve Online sound like everyone would like to participate but the actual experience is just numb. There was nothing worse than 90s and 00s games constantly having you run into roadblocks that keep you from accessing the rest of the game just because the developers made weird choices, many of them unintentionally. What I am missing is my ability to play Star Wars Battlefront 2. The old game seems like it gives you a fair system and fair rules while the EA game is incomprehensively chaotic due to the barrage of sense-numbing explosions and the immense skill of select few players who then go on to dominate the map. Not that there weren't instances of domination in the old game but the speed and rate of explosions are creating a hard block and I would say developers should think about ways to segregate the groups in better ways so the competitive players can keep running around like Naruto and destroy each other while the casual leisure range offers greater immersion without turning it too often into a walking simulator like Assasssins Creed does in its beloved missions of people just walking around town and talking.

[@solr313]

@@Grandof-the-PentastarAlignment Good reply, and now that you mention it, I find the way Dark Souls turned into shorthand for “masochistic real gamer game” is beyond ironic after I finally played it earlier this year. Sure, it’s hard (VERY hard), but the experience is very different than the impression the memes created. Namely, the way it’s meant to be played collaboratively (I.e. the online features), and that there isn’t really one correct way to play or beat it. Both of which go against the idea of Souls as a solitary, masochistic proving ground for “real” gamers. Souls in the public eye seems to have morphed into the very embodiment of the bootstrap ethic Moon is talking about, though it really isn’t. And besides, there’s a lot to love about the games other than their difficultly.

[@EphemeralPseudonym]

​@@HappyBeezerStudiosthat tenet of game theory is disproven by the prisoner's dilemma, whose solution is incredibly simple and does not cause issues for others but at the same time people apparently cannot stop fucking it up

[@jaysonata3211]

As someone with a moralist and previously Catholic background, this was really insightful and your voice belongs in a choir my dude. Love and peace! ✌️

[@panqueque445]

I think that Hank Hill quote hit the nail on the head. All Christian games I've ever played felt like a worse version of another game.

[@klutterkicker]

Kind of a tangent but it's really intriguing to me to see King of the Hill getting a kind of Classic Simpson's level of recognition in the last couple years. I watched it when it was airing and it seemed like a pretty average family sitcom / cartoon, I forgot about it for years and then recently I started to see references to it all over the place.

[@supercamborg4218]

I can think of one that was at least decent. The GBA version of LarryBoy and the Bad Apple (don’t bother with the PS2 version)

[@Guns-R-Us_]

As a fellow Christian willing to take shots at their own religion, I think the world needs more people like you. Keep doing what you do brother, nice to know there are more people out here in my neck of the woods who don't make their beliefs their entire personality.

[@silverhawkscape2677]

I'd rather not eventually find oneself cheering for evil when being told its good. Many European Countries are quietly dropping or heavily restricting Kid Trans Surgery Support due to a growing amount of Long term research on its effects.

[@michielartz8232]

As opposed to people making their sexuality their whole personality as we see today? I think people are going to find things to base their persona on no matter what, and I rather it be religion

[@silverhawkscape2677]

@@michielartz8232 At least it's less Cringe. Given how super cringe Secuality stuff is. Plus you can have good media that makes good use of religious themes. I don't know how you make good use of the Sexuality stuff.

[@chillinchum]

​@@silverhawkscape2677you'd be surprised. All you'd have to do is be willing to dip your toe in. All you've told me is you just don't happen to understand yet. I'll take cringe over extremist ideals that lead to the desire for thousands or millions to be discriminated against for stupid reasons. I say as an agnostic, for whatever that's worth to you. ... though yes, I'm not in favor of *any* kind of people having one dimensional character personalities.

[@Guns-R-Us_]

@@michielartz8232 I almost agree, but then you have people using that religious zeal to justify crimes against humanity and I have to give it a second thought. Then again, I'm not exactly the biggest fan of the brainrot over on Twitter either, so I can't say I completely disagree either. Both are undesirable, I think we can agree on that.

[@melle-d9971]

as an atheist i'd like to thank you for covering this as a practicing Christian. it really helps to have a perspective that you don't really see on these games, which are usually just straight up mocking. its an interesting question and you did a great job covering it

[@snesiocat4033]

Another great video from you! As a Dutch atheist this video really showed why some parts of Americain culture are the way they are. By watching your videos I get more knowledgeable and more even a bit more empathetic because of how respectfully you treat subjects like transgender. Thank you for finding time to make these videos, they mean a lot to me!

[@elderleon1844]

sorry but for me atheism is just noncense, we barelly know our own planet how can we assume or be certain of something so great that englobe the entire universe like the existence of a God or gods if we don't know even what exactly are in our oceans? isn't this a little presumptuous? I also like to know why this is so common in the nordic countrys and just in the nordic countrys and not in europe as a whole with most of europeans being actually agnostic theistics

[@MaticTheProto]

@@elderleon1844shut up you walking stereotype

[@glitchy000]

It is with immense relief that I finally hear a reasonable literal brother in Christ both stick to the faith yet lean into the extremely valid criticisms of zealotry we have here in America. We need more of that.

[@damasake]

It never gets old when they blame Pokemon to be demonic while SMT, a game where you literally summon demons is kinda invisible to them.

[@belstar1128]

i mean pokemon was everywhere so even these boomers knew about it

[@F1areon]

Probably bc for a loooong time SMT was mostly Japan-only. Could you IMAGINE the shitstink that would've come up if it had been localized way earlier? It would've been *apocalyptic*

[@bromeliad9683]

This was even more enlightening than I expected it to be. I came to learn about Christian games specifically as a fan of video games, but this is my first time learning about the Protestant Work Ethic and its Calvinist underpinnings, as well as it’s impact on America. As a Christian myself who has been part of Christian communities my whole life, this was really interesting to me and explains a lot about aspects of my upbringing.

[@DiamondWolfX]

Wisdom Tree is an interesting side note in this whole thing. They weren't always Wisdom Tree, though I can't remember what they used to be called. They discovered a reliable method to fool the NES into thinking their cartridge was Nintendo licensed when it wasn't, allowing them to skip the process and fees that licensing involved. Struggling with the legal side of combating this, they threatened to pull licensed titles from retailers who sold these unlicensed cartridges. There was one market which didn't care about such threats as they never normally carried these games: Christian bookstores. Thus Wisdom Tree was born to publish unlicensed games to a market where Nintendo couldn't realistically intervene.

[@ocarinalover1214]

LJN?

[@brucelee3343]

You've just made a Christian theme video talking about video games without being too didactic, not overly derivative, and that is not cheaply made. Jokes aside, it really is a well made video. This doesn't just apply to Christian video games either. It also think this applies to many educational video games. When I was still learning English, I learned a lot of words by playing games like Pokemon. I didn't understand what Surf meant, but seeing what the attack looked like, and that I could go on water made me realize surf meant something like I could go on water and it has to do with waves. I also learned simple words like Fly, Rock Smash, etc. slowly unlocking more English vocabulary as I went and then piecing the sentences NPCs in the game together to start understanding the story.

[@KasumiRINA]

Oh this THIS point is very important! There are TONS of games and programs that are supposed to help people learn English... none of them really work. But Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy? I learned English by playing games nobody made with this intention in mind. Almost everyone I know went to English supplementary lessons and workshops, and almost nobody ACTUALLY speaks it, but I do. Because when they were spending time looking in boring textbooks I was making speech checks in Knights of the Old Republic and building Paladin so I can max Diplomacy in Neverwinter Nights.

[@orngjce223]

There are more than a few fans of Earthbound who have learned Japanese specifically because the sequel, Mother 3, was only released in Japan. In fact, the fan translation of Mother 3 was headed by someone who got into the translation business _just_ to give other people the same experience they themselves had with the quality of Earthbound's translation.

[@william.jvenancio]

Brazil mentioned! Thanks moony for another history lesson! It's absurd to discover that even with you knowing how enormous the church's influency is you'll always discover a new western culture topic that is whole rooted in christian dogma

[@xaropevic7918]

Man, the meme in that moment was hilarious lol, as the girl was holding a skol of all things (despite me hating alcoholic drinks, that was still hilarious)

[@therealmounteverest]

This is a really well-made video. As an American growing up in a pretty Conservative Christian home, I really enjoyed hearing different perspectives on American culture. I had been wondering about Christian video games for a while actually, and you made your points very clear and really explained the topic well in my opinion! I'm glad I found this as a Christian!

[@kiricappuchin]

INCREDIBLE vid.. I feel like my eyes have been opened, lol. I can't really say anything about it that hasn't been said by all the other 2,262 comments, but really. this vid helped me understand Protestant values and the history of American Christianity in a way that related to my interests, and that's awesome. Thanks for this, I really enjoyed it!

[@Pr1nceTim]

As a former Christian “I still believe in the values but don’t really follow/go to church” I find this video very interesting and funny because of the long running gag that doom is a Christian game.

[@draketheduelist]

Technically it's a Mormon game. Doomguy and rabbit-enthusiast Flynn Taggart himself, is canonically Mormon. Even more technically, you never really fight a single "demon", strictly speaking, but invading shapeshifting aliens that take on the form of human fears. (That said, if 40k has taught me anything, the line between "alien" and "demon" can be somewhat semantic and the two groups aren't necessarily mutually-exclusive anyway.) Taggart himself even points out in the books that no _actual_ demon would fold to human ordnance. That's why the final boss of the first game is the Spider Mastermind and not the more traditionally Satan-looking Cyberdemon.

[@N8crafter]

@@draketheduelist doomguy is catholic, but one of the devs is/was mormon

[@mushmush4980]

Same with FNAF, it has a bit of christian idealism mixed inside

[@skorupigo5544]

@@N8crafter im mormon so thats a cool thing to know

[@elderleon1844]

doom is a satanist game in the old gods dlc you discover that the demons are actually angels and the devil is actually God the creator and you have literally to kill God and you are in the size of the rebelous angel that is the father, this is completely satanist@@draketheduelist

[@ivbyse]

Man, I am a staunch anti-theist as I have experienced that a lot of suffering and violence in the world stems from unchecked religion. Despite that, some of the greatest people I've ever met have been deeply religious people such as yourself. I appreciate you, and although you may not turn me to the faith, you do absolutely give me faith in the faithful.

[@Oscar97o]

Anti-theism is more against organised religion and religious dogmas than against religious people.

[@Iinneus]

damn, that was bars

[@thefruitman3200]

amen brother or sister or non-binary sibling, amen

[@thisorthat629]

​​@@Oscar97oCould just ... not? They meant what they wrote, and message pretty clear, innit What is it with this video and so many Christians feeling so validated by this video, like why? Or going the "not like other girls"-route? rhetorical questions see the thinly veiled anti trans, anti lbqtq+, discussion under at least one comment edit: ain't directed at the chill people, but a lot of these comments give me bad vibes, kinda dog whistly, again sorry to the chill ones

[@Oscar97o]

@@thisorthat629 I'm not Christian and what I posted certainly isn't a dogwhistle.

[@Deniki666]

I've been listening to your videos for the past few days after finding your Korean Gacha video, definitely my new favorite channel, and it's awesome that you are a New Yorker. 🤙🏼

[@BlazeStorm]

I just finished the history part and honestly I feel... sad for my American friends. The foundation of your country being abstinence of joy and instead pain, I really can't find any other word than sad. And then some of those people also believe that their actions don't even decide if they go to heaven or hell, that some of them are just doomed? That's just a depressing thought.

[@Pmf95k]

The way those people get around that is that they truly believe they are going to heaven, NO doubts. A certain someone who is incredibly selfish, has called me and the rest of my family satanic for avoiding him, never allowing entertainment of any kind for us, has failed financially ruining our lives, willingly repeats the physical and verbal abuse learnt from his own parents… he thinks he will be rewarded for all of it after he dies. It’s best to escape as soon as you can as they will try their hardest to bring you down with them. Let them enjoy their sad painful life. I don’t know, I guess they like it that way anyways.

[@normanclatcher]

It's not so depressing for me since it's the main perspective I grew up with and have known for most of my life. Gets me a little twisted on certain moral questions, but honestly, it's not too bad.

[@ZaiDrizzleDrop]

thanks man

[@TerryBradstreet]

Speaking as an American protestant, this just isn't my experience at all. I'm not suggesting that Moon is wrong about historical protestants, just that this isn't necessarily true of modern American protestants, or at least not all of us. When trying to envision a Christian game, I don't ask myself "how do I make it educational", but rather how I could make it ACCURATE. I'd love to see a fantastical game featuring angels as characters, but the Bible barely explains anything about what angels are like. I don't want to do what Dante did, and just invent a whole bunch of stuff that people then take as canon.

[@QseftJohn]

American here, me and my parents follow Pentecostal beliefs so I never grew up with the Calvin doctrine of having no control over my salvation. Honestly, growing up the protestant work ethic, was described as a good thing that gave early settlers the drive to build the USA from nothing. I was never told anything about how it came from Calvinism. Nowadays, the protestant work ethic is being replaced with the prosperity gospel which twists the new covenant of salvation into a covenant of having a good life. Sadly, the prosperity gospel is turning people into modern day Pharisees that believe that you will have a good life if you follow Jesus, which quickly turns into, people believing that they are righteous if they are living a good life. These people are horrible representations of Christianity.

[@86fifty]

As a "none" who grew up in the United Methodist tradition, this has been a real trip down memory lane - VeggieTales, man, it's just SUCH a pinnacle of the genre for quality in execution, being not TOO didactic, and also FUN with the silly songs and comedy in the stories and references to secular media like Monty Python, which made my parents actually like watching it along with us as kids - and a lot of kids media is INTOLERABLE to adults after only 2 or 3 repetitions, lol (That's a very good Pirates parody song, you should be proud!)

[@monocledmanatee6355]

Proud atheist here. Was delighted by the depth and quality of your analysis (and revisiting Max Weber was fun - haven't read him for 30 years!). And I was puzzled for many, many years by the attitude of many a self-professed Christian who'd happily in one sentence profess their acceptance of Christ and spout vile hatred for those who are different from them, or want to do anything the speaker doesn't approve. Usually the explanation of such a conduct would be tied to some minor detail of the ritual specific to their denomination and the overall tendency to treat Christianity not as the rules for one's OWN life, but as a license to go and tell OTHERS what THEY should be doing - or else! Hence all the moral panics and the tendency to push overly didactic crud down peoples' throats. Luckily, I've met much more people who were decent and didn't try to force their beliefs on everyone - Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, atheists, ... - who're more worried about being good people themselves than the mores of their neighbor.

[@elderleon1844]

''remember boy pride is a poison''

[@deretti347]

Calvinist lawyer be like: sir, my client was pre-determined to commit the crime, he is not guilty

[@normanclatcher]

My client pleads TULIP: Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

[@xxthelastdragonxx6735]

I dont really care much about christianity and general religion, but the history lesson is highly appreciated. It is really cool to hear about why thigns are how they are

[@bwhit7919]

The Christian story is one about giving up power and submitting to God. That doesn’t lend itself well to video games, which tend to be about obtaining power and mastery. The best Christian narratives are novels, which can show the inner turmoil of a character struggling to resist selfishness and submit to God-think Dostoevsky or Tolstoy or JRR Tolkien.

[@Mike14264]

Boy, it's really refreshing to find a fellow Christian online that not only has common sense and good morals but also talks and sounds like his whole life and personality doesn't revolve around his religion. ...man, this should be the norm, not the exception... Also, very interesting video you have here! I'm European, and much of what I understand of how Christianity works in the US of A comes mostly from media. But after seeing what's the deal with Calvinism, and how it led to the Puritans leaving for America, and seeing their perspectives on life... yeah, I can see why some Christians are messed up in the noggin' over there. And yet, it's cool to see the Calvinists themselves evolved with their beliefs! Dudes basically inhaled so much copium over kids being their own selves instead of their parents' workhorses and unquestioning puppets, they literally traveled through the Atlantic to create their own -cult- colony where choice wasn't an option. "No Fun Allowed" indeed, no wonder so many Christian games sucked. It's also interesting to see how their perspective on how God worked influenced their way of life... All work and no play makes you _make sure_ you're worthy of God's salvation. And if you aren't? Well, who's to say you aren't? The "signs"? Yourself? Will you wallow in self-pity once you believe you are unworthy of God, or pursue success in a subconscious attempt to "change God's decision" while also masking it as "this is what God intended for me all along, I am indeed amongst the blessed"? As if some people were favored by God and therefore successful, or the other way around. This is all pretty messed up, to me at least. It explains a lot of America's issues, and its so... backwards in its logic. The ending bit was a beautiful way to end this video however!

[@TheAyanamiRei]

The sickening part is how much this Dogma from American Christians ends up turning into Heresy. The extreme persuit of Material Wealth and using Wealth as a Measure of Salvation goes against everything Jesus taught. Jesus said it's LOVE that shows whether someone is a Christian. It also explicitly talks AGAINST Greed, and how the Nature of the Rich Person leads them to HELL. As a Liberal Christian I am disgusted by how this has shaped American Politics in a way that goes against everything Jesus talked about. Like how they rallied FOR Corp Loan Forgivness, but AGAINST Student Loan Forgiveness.

[@Gyropathic]

This dude doesn't have common sense though, not even 4 minutes into the video he states he's a progressive, which in this day and age is regressive, especially since he pulled up a picture about Bridgette who was literally gas-lit, and traumatized by his entire village to be something he's not because they were lunatics who would kill him if they found out he was a boy. Literally common sense would say that's not good, in fact it would tell you that it's downright evil, yet the fact he LITERALLY implied in the video that he thinks it's OK, shows he has no common sense.

[@Mike14264]

​@@Gyropathic ah, you're one a "those" sorta folks. Now that's a throwback to 2022. You know that deeming someone as a person who has absolutely no common sense over their... implied opinion on a fictional character isn't exactly very sensible either, right? Like, out of all the objective and real life topics and subjects he discusses... that's the thing that bugs you enough, to the point it overshadows the rest?

[@Gyropathic]

@@Mike14264 Yes it does, because it sets a point to go on, if he did it out of ignorance, then it shows he's lazy and doesn't actually look into everything he uses (as in how can you trust what he's saying), if he did know then the way he framed it is clearly shows that he doesn't actually care about anything he's saying and is willing to LIE as long as it pushes his values, so everything he says after that point becomes suspect

[@Mike14264]

@@Gyropathic well, you're right, this whole affair sets a point, that you decided to read too much into a clip with a fictional video game character I honestly am having a hard time even finding in this video. And regarding the whole Bridget thing, I can't really speak out of direct knowledge since I don't even play the games. All I know is that Twitter was filled with nutjobs that were frothing at the thought of their beloved character not being a femboy anymore and instead identifying as a girl, reaching far beyond the edge of the cliff for reasonings behind why she's actually still a feminine boy, despite the fact even the creator of the series himself set it in stone, saying it was the intended progression of Bridget's story. Now, was he being honest about that or, as half of the fanbase was conspiring with lotsa slurs in the middle, was he only "tending to the LGBT masses"? I mean, Bridget's story is a complicated one. Born as a biological boy, twin to another which was seen as a bad omen by the village, so she was raised as a girl, tho her parents felt bad for it as it seemed to them like they were forcing her, which is kinda funny since it's the reverse version of conservative parents that won't let their kids be who they want. Then she decided to act more like a man during her pursuit of bringing glory to her village and wreck the superstition, but still referring to herself with pronouns typically used by women. And when she did break that stereotype, she tried keeping her life as a man but it didn't feel right to her, and with others encouraging her to live true to herself, she decides to assume as a girl pronto. Now, should we interpret this as a case of village-wide abuse that pushed her into seeing herself as a girl? I dunno, like I said, I didn't play the games. But this sure didn't seem to be the intention behind it. Word of God is a main rule in media, after all. Whether folks want it or not (cus it seems to be more of a matter of people wanting Brisket to be a girl or a femboy), well, one a these options is canon and has a canon reasoning behind it. The best thing I can say to folks that still see it as abuse is "it's always hard to evaluate a situation that we never lived through, especially when we have heavy bias towards one side". I have spoken. hope you got that last reference lol

[@reeceulf]

This is what I love about your videos. It's not until a third of the way in or so that you actually tackle the topic in the title, because you genuinely take the time to educate your audience and make sure everyone's on the same page. You aren't telling anyone how to feel or what to think by any means, either! Every single video you put out is such a banger I can't exaggerate how much I appreciate your content. ♥ Omg and a pirates who don't do anything parody as the cherry on top you SPOIL US your singing voice is beautiful 🥺

[@AndrewMiller_andros]

thoroughly enjoyed your version of pirates at the end. Thank you!

[@nigelrobbins5588]

The "pirates who don't do anything" parody is brilliant! How it ties in with the rest of your content, the visuals adding that meta layer of IP law on a song about piracy, an just the great singing! True art

[@GuntherX57]

32:58 as a Spanish protestant, I laughed. But I'm glad you appreciate our videogames. Anyways, I had been searching for a christian video essayist for a long time, and I'm glad I found it.

[@xangarabana]

Hereje. Arrepiéntete antes de ser demasiado tarde.

[@ferando]

I am subscribing to your channel because your narrative is very calm and your voice is soft, You got me hooked on the part when you explained the history of christianity in the US for that alone. I almost fell asleep listening to this video (in a good way, because you made me feel relaxed and i didn't got annoyed by your voice), I'm glad I found another great channel!

[@sneakygoomba5042]

As a Christian who wants to become a game designer, I enjoyed this video. My goal in game design will be to make fun games of many varieties that anyone could enjoy and help people understand not just Christians, but other groups as well. I will try my best to not make it overly derivative.

[@Retrofire-47]

Art is personal expression.. i look forward to seeing your creations as a fellow game dev :> blood, sweat, and pixels my friend

[@sneakygoomba5042]

@@Retrofire-47 Thank you!

[@nisnast]

I'd recommend, if you haven't already seen it, Wendigoons video about Faith and his interview with Faith's developer, Airdorf, both of them are devout christians and it's a really cool interview because Wendigoon clearly respects Airdorf's work and Airdorf put a lot of thought into how religion and christianity was represented in Faith in a way many people could enjoy (not sure how many christians enjoyed Faith tho lol)

[@sneakygoomba5042]

@@nisnast I think I've seen Faith! Isn't it a pixelated game where you play as a preacher?

[@SeanStrife]

@@sneakygoomba5042 Yeah, and it's kind of a horror game on top of that.

[@CamusHyuga]

I usually wouldn't click on a video covering this topic but this been done by Moon I cant wait to see it all the way through

[@RadikAlice]

That's the beauty of a good speaker

[@christophersouthorn6963]

The most surprising thing for me in this video was finding out that DJT has, in fact, stepped foot in a church.

[@corbettcappon6220]

You might want to consider checking out Dropsy and Hypnospace Outlaw. They are from self proclaimed 'follower of Jesus' Jay Tholen, and each feature Christian themes. They were also both critically acclaimed in non Christian circles. Aside from that, there's also the recently released 'In His Time' if you're interested in a very Christian game from Japan, with some artistic merits.

[@Retrofire-47]

Dropsy is the most unnerving game i have ever played. and i have played *a lot* of video games.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

While I'm not deep into Hypno Space plot, I did check a lot of early pages and there's a lot of sense of being empathetic to people of old and young generations while having a pretty good spirited sense of humour towards peoples misunderstanding of the web, while having pretty much contempt for corporate authority and ways it promotes itself.

[@veltlegins]

So glad that someone in comments suggested Hypnospace! Iirc, the other prominent and important developer of Hypnospace is also a follower of Christ. This game doesn't throw obvious christian themes right in your face and even satirizes some aspects of religion (I bet that many players wouldn't even guess that developers are Christian) but still manages to show so much kindness and compassion.

[@RadikAlice]

Wow, I had no idea! That's cool!

[@zedc6072]

don't forget Slayers X that game rocks. def light on the Christian values but damn fun

[@dragonmaster1500]

As a Canadian Mennonite Brethren Christian who's been an enjoyer of video games since I was young, I find myself drawn very closely to the kinds of games with a deep meaningful story with characters I can connect with on a personal level. I feel like this specific medium/genera of games would have lent itself very well to the creation of Christian games, but there's always seemed to be a sever lack of them and I've always wondered why that is. I appreciate you taking the time out like this to talk a bit about the history behind Christian games in America and the current state that they're in.

[@The.Culture.Consultant]

One of my favorite videos, period. This could be shown as part of university modern history courses, great research presented in a clear and entertaining format. Well done, Moonie!

[@lolzu]

Thank you for this video Moon. I've had a *very* rough patch with Christianity to the point I hated the idea of religion itself- all because of the moral panic with media in general and as a result- not being able to interact with my peers due to their interests. It was difficult for me to make friends on top of my autism, so it really made my childhood difficult. I eventually was exposed to the Internet and (somehow) had free roam which eventually had me move on from my hatred and realise it came from the mindset of my family and not the religion itself. There's plenty of people who do act like my family and think all media is inherently evil but then there's a bunch of different denominations of Christians like Moon mentioned. Knowing this... knowing that some Christians accept lgbt people as such as well kinda restores a bit of my faith. I think I need to do a bit more soul searching. Again, thanks for the informative video.

[@ahums16]

One thing that helps is when you realize the Catholic Church is the home of Christianity ~ all protestant denominations, someone took the Faith and did to it whatever it is they wanted. They made their own religion and slapped 'Christianity' on it. So it 'doesn't work'. They have completely disarmed themselves against the world, the flesh, and the Devil which is the spiritual warfare we wage. They know Christian morals, but cannot articulate why they matter. Virtue is on their lips, but they tell themselves the sin they love is okay and Jesus understands, they're already saved. (Scripture itself refutes this lie many times) Highly recommend the documentary Mass of the Ages Episode 1, Dr. Peter Kwasniewski who has many videos on KZbin and books, and Pints with Aquinas. I wish you the very best. ❤️ Pax Christi.

[@FlamespeedyAMV]

Any rights gay people have, is because Christians allowed them and fought for them to have them, society that was free is because of Christianity. Ever since Christianity is being erased, notice how the world is turning to shite

[@spiralspark8523]

It's sad that modern culture believes we can't think LGBT is a sin without hating them

[@draketheduelist]

​@@spiralspark8523 Gays have been sold a lie peddled by reprobate opportunists and regurgitated by poorly-read Christians who believed in the propaganda about what the Bible says instead of the genuine text. That lie suggests that homosexuality is some kind of uniquely grave sin that God especially hates above all others and will not forgive because God hates bundles of sticks. This is _not_ Biblical doctrine, of course, and gays have no reason to feel singled out in particular unless they're trying to shame Christians out of reminding them that they're sinners, too. Yes, the Apostle Paul made the claim that homosexuals would not inherit the kingdom of God. He _also_ claimed to be the worst sinner to ever live (and with less hyperbole than you might think), and yet was sure he was redeemed in spite of his heinous acts. Gays aren't special. Jesus died for us all because we're _all_ abominable Hell-bound wretches. You don't go to Hell for "being gay". You go to Hell for being so much of an ingrate that you slander the very sacrifice meant to save you from the judgment that the very cosmos itself attests that you deserve. For the record, if gays were _genuinely_ curious as to why God finds homosexuality so abominable, I recommend looking into the metaphor of biblical marriage and what, relative to that analogy, homosexuality would represent by contrast. As for me, I make no apologies to the gays. I had no hand in peddling the heresy they were fed and have taken active steps to correct that false teaching myself since learning the sheer scope of its proliferation. You are reading one such effort now.

[@JohnSmith-xv1tp]

@@spiralspark8523 It's sad some christians still think it's a sin, despite the obvious errors in those translations and cultural contexts behind the verses used to claim such. And when such misunderstandings are then used by such christians in government to, not only deny marriage, but to make such things an arrestable offense in some states as recent as a decade ago, it's not unreasonable to call that hate. Romans 14: Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. Just cause you're mind and your faith lead you to being straight (i.e. eat only vegetables), that doesn't mean you should then turn around and pass judgement on others in the LGBT community.

[@Fidel_Cashflow]

This is the first video essay I've ever seen where someone said "Oxford's dictionary defines it as..." and then actually read the definition.

[@austinmitchell2652]

I have read/listened to histories of Christianity that focus on all 2000 years of European Christian history, and give nothing more than a foot note to anything else (including American Christianity). This KZbin video ostenaibly about video games gave me a better understanding of the American Christianity that shaped my childhood more than any of those other histories. Thank you 🙏

[@waifowo]

as someone who was raised uber irish/hispanic catholic just outside nyc, this was just insane to me. my whole family has always loved gaming and seeing this from another perspective was kinda wild

[@AL_Talks]

There were a few moments that really got me including the Garfield with the John 3:16 and the Nintendogs rated Ao but the one that really got me was when you quoted noted philosopher Hank Rutherford Hill and I thought, "Oh wow, there's a philosopher with the same name as the guy from King of the Hill?" Well done 👏👏👏

[@l2barchives]

As someone who is a gamer and minister I really appreciate your discussion on this and I’m gonna share it with others. You do a great job of having discussions on media.

[@nisnast]

I'll be 27 this week and I must say your channel made a lot of stuff I noticed or learned about in my life finally click into place and make sense, love your content Moony, greeting from Burajiru.

[@LordAlexander-x5s]

I watched this entire video start to finish without alt tabbing or distracting myself in other ways. This was amazingly produced and I loved the educational background info you provided. I think the most unexpected and surprising thing of all is how I, an American and non-Christian, have internalized protestant work ethic in my world view and value system without attributing any of it to God... To me it was the world, humanity, something to make my existence worthwhile, for me to make right the resources I consume to sustain my life, I have to produce something that moves humanity forward just in inch for me to be "worthy." When you explained how American culture has been about making money and never spending it, to prove you are a moral person, both in the ability to acquire capital and the restraint to not spend it... It made me realize how I've inherited these values without knowing it, and it let me see it through so many other Americans. The youtuber Graham Stephan comes to mind, not that I'm criticizing his way of life or his videos. He's a great person to watch if you need to get your finances in order but... damn. I'm shocked. Great video, and I sent it to my Christian friend for his take on it.

[@KriegWaters]

Yep. I'm definitely not where Mr. Moon (brother Moon?) is w.r.t. the faith, but the critique of the Puritan legacy is spot on. I always appreciate the thoughtfulness, care, sincerity, and craftsmanship put into these videos. If nothing else, these quality vidoes coming from a Christian are Christ exalting, and other Christians would do well to take note.

[@mateusrp1994]

I had read part of Weber's book on Protestant Ethic for an administration class, so it pretty much all clicked on me the moment you mentioned Protestant Ethic. Still was interesting to watch how it related to american history specifically, and how it caused their constant moral panics over videogames and anime. Also, Brazil mentioned!

[@Squirberus]

Hey. This video literally changed my entire outlook on my faith realizing I was born in that type of environment you describe in the first 20 minutes. I've watched this like, 7 times now, at minimum. Thank you. A lot.

[@lunaticgmd6427]

I've recently been thinking that most Christian art, mostly video games have had a problem with depicting and covering darker themes and subjects, even ones depicted within the Bible, and that makes Christian media stick out like a sore thumb among other art pieces that are meant to appeal to an average audience of teens and young adults like video games. A lot of games over the past few years have explored themes of violence, abuse, trauma and illness, both physical and mental which makes the almost overly bright and "holier than thou" vibe of a lot of Christian media seem almost distasteful in comparison for the target audience. This is also why That Dragon, Cancer is so great though. It explores a very dark and, to a lot of people, relatable topic in a manner that's respectful and empathetic and treats Christianity as an element of the game, rather than the central and only focus of gameplay and story.

[@Leiliel1]

Given how Hell Houses work, I think it's because some people are aware of that, when evangelicals cover dark subject matter...it's to gloat. Seriously, Hell Houses are a nightmare - one could make a good Christian video game about an exorcist discovering a Hell House is actually a front for genuine demons threatening to turn a community into a homicidal cult that hates everything outside of it, by presenting Satan's idea of the world as holy - very much Protestant Blasphemous.

[@MasterLPG]

You know, thinking about it here, I am genuinely intrigued to hear how they would react to games not even necessarily violent but in a position where they could be perceived as 'pro-Christian' (Doom being a good example of this) but one that outright ties into the fundamental religious practices of a priest without so much as coming off as preaching, since I did figure that *'Faith: The Unholy Trinity'* would be a truly hard case for them to argue against as I'd argue it's surprisingly good for a game about Christians without being necessarily branded as a 'Christian game'.

[@lunaticgmd6427]

@@MasterLPG from what I've seen, most Christians aren't really bothered by stuff like Doom or Faith, it's really just a weird sub group of them. The ones that hate that stuff usually hate it because in the Bible, Satan is a clever trickster that tries to worm his way into your life in any way he can and some people don't even want to look at imagery or themes that could be interpreted as "satanic" out of fear, which kind of ironically ends up accomplishing Satan's goal of sowing fear and discord so...

[@MackSaysWhat_]

This channel is such a hidden gem. Every video puts me in such a comfortable, happy place. Thanks Moony.

[@AlexaSmith]

wowwww this was so good. i love that you took the time to add so much history and context, i think a lot of video essays miss that. i'm also a christian but I live in texas so its nice to be reminded there's other christians with my viewpoints out there lol

[@MissEvieYT]

I belong to the ELCA and I really enjoyed this video! One thing you barely touched on that stuck out to me is the way that Calvinist scholars have largely moved on from the 'theology' of the Protestant Ethic; of course, there have been similar shifts (even leading to schisms) in the American Baptist, Lutheran, and Anglican (Episcopalian) churches, among others. So why does the ethic persist in culture regardless? There is much to be said about how American leadership (and capital) benefits from the protestant work ethic, and how, as Christianity has, cyclically, fallen out of favor, politicians have cynically constructed new religious movements -- Creationism, Evangelicalism, the Moral Majority, the whole Pro-Life movement, etc, etc, to both galvanize support for unpopular policies and reinforce the toxic American Christian ethic.

[@svenbtb]

Don't forget "Make America Great Again" on that list. What is that if not a dog whistle for people to conform and generate capital at the expense of personal fulfillment and freedom?

[@DanielDapple]

This whole video is incredibly well-put together. I'm not too surprised to hear you're a practicing Christian, and I'm glad to know, honestly. I can't help but pity the americanization of Christianity a bit, as a lot of the negative stigma people generally have doesn't surround the Bible itself but rather some of the people's philosophies (like the ones you've exemplified in this video). Practicing faith and growing with it is pretty much the way to go. Thanks for bringing the game, "That Dragon, Cancer" to my attention; I've never thought about how many well-made Christian games are out there, but this game sounds like one to try. The end credits gag is the main reason why I wanted to post a comment here - we need more parodies with your singing voice! You sound great! You must have been told this before, but you sound younger while singing, and less lawyer-like; I guess it's easy to get that impression when you switch from your usual lower tone of voice to a higher one, haha. Glad to have found you from your video on Nintendo and their overprotective habits on its property. Sticking around here taught me some interesting principles involving not just law, in a digestible manner, but human philosophy as well. Well done, Moony. God bless.

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

As an agnostic who's been doing a lot of reading about Eastern Orthodoxy, a lot of American christianity just doesn't have very good answers to very simple questions in my opinion.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

You know what I hate is the American Republicans. For all their talk about God & Christianity...they do NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE to help either. Even going by the Strictest Interpretation, IF the Republicans were Christians they would be: Pro-Immigrants, Anti-Racist, Pro-Poor, Pro-Prison Reform, Anti-Corruption, Anti-Lying & Slander, Anti-Greed, Anti-Capitalism, Pro Gun Reform, etc.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

@@rudolfambrozenvtuberQUESTION: What answers does Eastern Orthodoxy give to said Simple Questions and what are they?

[@silverblank1139]

30:37 killed me you done my man jacob dirty

[@TheFunfighter]

Hats off Moon. You deliver one banger video after another. Almost every video of yours blesses us with another revelation about the fabric of society.

[@noisepollution4473]

This was a fantastic video. I'm gonna write a really long, personal comment here, fair warning. I was raised partially in a very strict religious household (divorced parents, every other weekend / summers) I grew up partially on christian media like Veggie Tales and in one household was not allowed to engage in much secular media while in the other I was a lot more free to watch and play what I wanted, barring ultraviolent or sexual content. It was really, really difficult to spend like 1/3rd of my life feeling shackled to aggressively terrible entertainment. (Veggie Tales was fine honestly, because it at least had the goal of making me laugh. It was the christian music and other media that really bummed me out.) But I think that restrictiveness lead directly into me eventually acting out in a way that really damaged me permanently. I had some very intense trauma I was dealing with growing up, and the escapism video games provided me were incredibly vital to my mental well being. I nearly died when I was very young in a really horrific way, and was hospitalized for a long time. I was told that for a while, the only time I ever smiled in the hospital was when I got to play A Link to the Past. So to then later have that very important thing to me restricted so heavily was difficult. It resulted in me pushing back so hard against religion that I abandoned everything I believed in for a long time, even the parts of the faith that weren't actively harming me or were worth looking at as reasonable guidelines for healthy living. I have since come around somewhat. I am not a christian anymore, and I never will be again, but I don't hate it with the passion that I once did. I think that when implemented correctly, there are a lot of christian values that are absolutely worth living by. But dedicating your entire life to work at the expense of your own or your family and friends' well being is not one of them. Christian media intensely needs to lighten up and be about positivity rather than shame. I cannot stand movies that are about how bad everyone who isn't christian is, or ganes that exist soley to memorize bible verses, or music that fails to value genuine human emotion in favor of only talking about how the only thing of value in existence is loving God. There is so much more to life than that. There are so many more people worth valuing and respecting than just christians. I cannot fathom a world where a just God exists who dismisses all human artistic achievements as mere wasteful frivolities. I don't actually fully know what I'm getting at. I'm just tired after a brutal workweek and really appreciated your video and perspective and I wound up kinda yapping a lot as a result. tldr: good video, appreciated the perspective, christian media needs to lighten up because in its typical state I think it causes a whole lot of harm.

[@lunactiathemoth]

sorry for having to go through that, glad that you managed to get out of that household i agree with christianity having to lighten up and be positive more, afterall christians are supposed to love everyone no matter what, aren't they? to me, christianity is a thing that constantly crops up in my life, i am in a christian household having to go to a christian school, i am honestly tired of having it shoved down my throat almost every day, on top of this, i am scared of death and the thought of being condemned to hell along with the rapture as a whole horrifies me, forcing me to become atheist to lift those fears of condemnation out if it (ironically at the cost of fearing that nothing awaits after death), kinda rich of me to say this cause my parents weren't as strict, but hey, felt like telling my side of things.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Yeah, that is something I noticed in a lot of christian movies. They tend to display any nonbeliever as evil sinner. Which only leads to christians watching those movies believing that message and drives away any non-christian. If you want to make media about how great your religion is, don't display the outsiders as enemies in it. What happened to the whole "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek"? If you want to bring non-believers to the faith, show them a smooth way into it.

[@donut1550]

Actually, as a Christian, there’s quite a lot of media out there that portrays non-believers as just normal people, and even painting some in good lights. I usually tend to avoid media that only paints good light on Christians, instead finding ones with diverse perspectives on religion and other stuff. I personally like the book series Out From Egypt and especially that one series about the world ending the way it prophesied in Revelation (I forgot the name lol). I’d totally recommend those if you are ever interested in getting back into Christianity a bit, but I really don’t wanna sound like I’m forcing it since I’m afraid of people seeing me that way 😅 Anyway, have a good day!

[@Psx806]

I hope you can regain you belief in God. It’s sad hearing stories like this!

[@TheManofthecross]

@@HappyBeezerStudios turn the other cheek has been weaponised against us to much and then some. the faith needs a backbone to fight otherwise they will be long gone and more. look at what the corss had to deal with islamic agression, and in the early days pagen persicutions etc.

[@jorgenjorgensen2739]

Love listening to these long form videos in that buttery smooth voice full of information.

[@lawnmower16]

That Encarta mind maze reference definitely caused an ancient dusty synapse to fire for the first time in ages for me haha