Talking: Bumble

[@eptck]

it's so . interesting . to me how the authors seem to portray abuse so realistically and accurately and yet continue to write it as apologetic toward the abusers

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

Yeah yeah

[@deweyr_fisher]

right like I really don’t understand how you can simultaneously succeed and fail so badly

[@meevins]

slight correction to this based on the comments said authors have made - it's so interesting how the authors seem to write abuse so realistically and accurately yet be completely oblivious to the fact they have written abuse. this is such a wide spread pattern and the authors, both in the books and out of it, go to great lengths to defend and justify the abusers as being secretly good people deep down or whatever. it's actually worrying and while it's horrific to handle this topic in such a way in a kids book i hope the authors themselves are okay.

[@lonemew3503]

@@meevins Also iirc one of the authors at one point, Vicky I think said she loved writing ''messy'' relationships -

[@spyritsolz]

Ngl, this fact worries me that some of the authors may have been abused themselves.

[@luckyclaw9569]

Sorry Moon you missed something important; That wasn't Clear Sky's territory when he murdered Bumble and he even admits it. "NEW PART OF MY TERRITORY." He was expanding his borders, and stealing Misty's land was the reason why he slaughtered her. Bumble was not even trespassing, Clear Sky is just evil

[@lonemew3503]

Yeah...Poor Misty and Bumble...

[@milkshakedraws6944]

It’s fascinating how Warriors can create some of the most unlikeable and despicable characters ever and then just expect you to like them anyway, their persistence to redeem Clear Sky despite him remaining consisyently awful killed my spirit 😭

[@paigeoh9155]

He sucks

[@Weirdanimalboy]

@@milkshakedraws6944 This seems to be a weird habit of the new writing team. They want to have their cake and eat it, *ALL THE TIME*. Almost every character that does ruthless, antagonistic, and wicked things have to be a regretful soft boi/gorl if the camera switches to their pov. Clear Sky, Onestar, Blackfoot, Leopardstar, Riverstar, etc

[@potatoe972]

@@WeirdanimalboyWhy is Riverstar on this list? What did he do?

[@daydreamer8941]

The way Bumble died not even angry at the cat who killed her makes me feel like she showed more nobility then the so called warriors

[@notoriusbookworm48]

Tbh she did other times too, being kind and welcoming to the tribe cats and offering to show them her home even when they were rude af

[@lonemew3503]

Yeah, she even blamed herself for what led up to her getting killed....Which is so fucking sad-

[@tratixmusic8884]

yea i remember reading the books and after this scene, i was like yea these characters are very self centered. it made for a more interesting read imo instead of always reading from a perspective that is more in the right or realizes they were in the wrong

[@SkelloBellow]

On Tumblr there was a tournament going around trying to find which female character suffered the most due to sexist authors and bumble was a contestant, I think that's what started it

[@sparrowlovesskittles1640]

And against all odds, Bumble won the entire tournament. Largely thanks to campaigning by tumblr user Bonefall

[@crumchylettuce]

@@sparrowlovesskittles1640 yeah it was especially crazy cause it wasn’t even a warrior cats specific tournament, just misogyny in writing as a whole :0 and bumble still won!! poor lady :(

[@angelbaby2145]

The fact that she won against a woman that was fridged because the show runner was both a misogynist and upset the actor got pregnant shows how badly she was treated by the writers

[@tartarsauce1495]

@@angelbaby2145specifically the character that coined fridging, if i remember correctly! tough to humble, yet our dear bumble succeeded!

[@notoriusbookworm48]

@@angelbaby2145 woooow. What character was that?

[@Jade-ti2bc]

Re: where the recent Bumble awareness came from... Around this time last year there was a Tumblr poll tournament to determine "Canon Misogyny Victims", i.e. female characters who are treated badly by the narrative because of misogyny. Out of hundreds of submissions and 128 poll contestants, Bumble won the entire thing by a landslide. I think that says a lot because even most Warrior Cats fans barely remember her, let alone Tumblr as a whole, so that means people were actually reading the rationale (vs just voting for whichever character they know/like, which has been an issue in some other tournaments) and were rightly stunned at how egregious the whole situation is.

[@flintfeatherr]

Shout-out to Bonefall for leading the charge in the Bumble propaganda

[@Cinnaschticks]

​@@flintfeatherr I love Bonefall's blog, it's baller

[@imnoorrs5095]

The “Graywing is a good guy like Thrushpelt” idea that used to float around gets further and further away every five minutes of this hour and 16 minutes video…

[@Danmeilover69]

I haven't read Dawn of the Clans in awhile, so all I had was this vague positive idea of who I remembered Grey Wing to be. But now that I have watched Moon go over the arc and Grey Wing's actions in it, I can confidently say that I have entirely lost that positive notion.

[@clarehidalgo]

He's not a nice guy, he's a "nice guy"

[@Midnightlunar10]

@@Danmeilover69 I had a positive opinion of DOTC right up until this video where the conversation about Tom being the father of Turtle Tail’s kits and Bumble getting angry with Tall Shadow was shown. Then I remembered being 9 and going “wow! That’s an awful way to treat a living thing!” I need to reread this arc.

[@Jonlovr]

I love grey wing he's literally my favorite cat of all time but then again I haven't read the books in a long time so watching this does make me realize he wasn't the greatest but I still love him as a character in general he was very sweet most of the time from what I remember. Edit: I think i see him so highly due to the situation with clear sky (COUGH the worst cat) which I remember him being a good character during that.

[@uglyfense7754]

@@imnoorrs5095 Well, I doubt Thrushpelt was wholesome uwu with kittypets

[@satiricwriter]

I want an AU where Bumble joined the river cats because Riverstar/Ripple would take absolute care of her like his old home in the park.

[@GelatinSkeleton]

your brain is so huge and so wrinkled i’m thinking about this so hard now

[@ccondelli]

This is genius. Poor Bumble probably didn't know about Riverstar's group, she absolutely should've gone there.

[@xRaiofSunshine]

@@GelatinSkeleton 🧠🧠🧠🧠🧠

[@juliawertz5282]

I've thought about this a lot too. It literally makes zero sense why they wouldn't bring her to River Ripple. Yeah she'd be away from Turtle Tail but it would solve all her other problems and ensure her safety and it's infuriating that NONE of the characters thought to take her to him. Ugh

[@notoriusbookworm48]

@@juliawertz5282 its so infuriating because usually the cats are portrayed as kind of smart at least, but then the writers put them so wildly out of character for the sole intention of hurting Bumble?? like wtf

[@CrystalRabbitStudio]

When I was younger, I didn't understand the implications of the abuse that Bumble was going through, and I still thought that Gray Wing was being unreasonable and wanted Bumble to stay.

[@CorvidFanatic1]

Talk about Crookedstar! He is arguably the best disability representation in the series and has one of the best depictions of Mapleshade in his book. He’s also my favorite character of all time (I’ve been saying this every mini talking and talking for the past year or so lmao)

[@SpriteLovuh]

I love my boy crookedstar! Although the way riverclan acted in his super edition was like…. Really?

[@sodaboi2154]

Yes I’m with you on that one! I love crookedstar!

[@FLESHTHING]

CROOKEDSTAR MENTION!! I love him so much, he definitely deserves his own video

[@aaliyah3998]

YESSS SEE THIS MOONKITTII

[@CorvidFanatic1]

Guys it might happen rn my comment is the most liked (from what I can tell) with second being Spotfur

[@anxioussquiddy]

Bumble x Turtle Tail was my Cody x Leafpaw

[@clementinekitten8305]

you're so real for this comment

[@yeti_rex07]

Omg Cody and Leafpool, they're so underrated

[@SpriteLovuh]

Same 😤🔥

[@geraniognostico]

turtle tail my beloved

[@SaraMoustamandi-my8ot]

I never understood Cody x Leafpaw. Cody was a grown adult cat who already had kits and Leafpaw was just an apprentice. Leafpool x Mothwing and Leafpool x Sorreltail were much superior.

[@ieatmice751]

I think that it’s pretty obvious why Clear Sky allowed Tom to join the clan whilst treating bumble like he did. He obviously doesn’t care much for she cats and sees them as lesser. Tom, despite being fat is a large and seemingly powerful tomcat attempting to join a group that appreciates physical strength. Clear Sky is also trying to build up his forces and is taking any cat he can get, especially if they’re tough (and male) like Tom and One Eye. He’s also an extremely morally bankrupt person and barely recognises when he does bad things or contradicts himself. Not to mention the fact he’s very manipulative and threatening especially to Gray Wing, who is quite weak willed when it comes to his brother.

[@deweyr_fisher]

Clear Sky really sucks because he justified his actions by saying he’s doing what he did so no one has to suffer like his dead sister, while not caring at all about the fact that others were suffering during his stupid power trip moments. Between the warmongering and just actually straight-up murdering people I think he’s way past ‘my sister died’ as a justification

[@meeplol145]

⁠@@deweyr_fisherespecially when he starved Jackdaws Cry because.. reasons? He knew Jackdaws Cry when he was in the mountains and yet starves him when he’s hold prisoner and so when Jackdaws Cry tries to hunt because he’s starving Clear Sky gets pissed and tossed Tall Shadow into a heap of angry and hissing cats. This guys logic sucks. If he doesn’t want cats to starve why the hell would you starve someone?? Someone you used to know may I add??

[@deweyr_fisher]

@@meeplol145 it’s Clear Sky’s flimsy justification for it so he doesn’t feel like a bad person even though he obviously is, if he cared about his sister starving he wouldn’t starve people [in general but especially not his former friends]

[@fozzyspots]

Yes! Clear Sky is a literal woman killer.

[@uglyfense7754]

@@ieatmice751 Did Clear Sky even know what Tom did to Bumble? Like I’m not saying you’re incorrect, he is not a good person by any stretch, but you’re framing it like he was fully aware what Tom did when honestly… Tall Shadow’s Group probably didn’t care enough about Bumble to tell him, they show that as much.

[@Weirdanimalboy]

After some thinking, if Bumble was a WoF character she’d be given the help and kindness she deserves and Tom probably would’ve been eaten by a shark or something

[@quicksilveryt4000]

WoF AU when? Bumble gets to hang out with Turtle Tail forever, Gray Wing has to own up to being a twat and the three of them watch Tom be obliterated by dragon clear sky for trespassing tryna find them or something

[@uglyfense7754]

@@Weirdanimalboy If they were WoF characters, Tom would eat sharks.

[@STAGISTODAY]

bumble is a hivewing, tom is a skywing, turtle tail is a mudwing, clear sky and grey wing are silkwings, one eye is a seawing nightwing hybrid, wind runner is a sandwing, and tall shadow is obvs a nightwing

[@CastanoB-e8k]

@@STAGISTODAY I love it when WOF and WC crossover! more more more!

[@SadieHenze]

Nah, he'd get killed by a Scavenger

[@ninereeds1810]

But can we talk about how JAGGED PEAK is one of the cats calling Bumble fat and useless and a burden...y'know, the guy who got kicked out of his old clan because he was considered a burden.

[@satiricwriter]

@@ninereeds1810 I hadnt thought about that! What a lil bitch!

[@eshix4089]

while we're talking about the gender stuff and the kittypet/warrior divide, we can't forget that one of the main reasons given for Rusty to leave his housefolk is literally castration. The "soft" life of a kittypet is portrayed as a literal threat to his masculinity.

[@ironwolf5802]

Also that the other male cats talked about going to get snipped, so would be taking his, um, "manhood."

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

Oh my god you're right I didn't even think of that!

[@foxygrin]

I mean it wasn't just a threat to his masculinity, but also one of never having children, which with this level of sentience of the cats I can imagine is actually threatening

[@hails1136]

OOOOOOO you're completely right. holy shit

[@theonewholikesmorays2709]

Fr

[@AlexHarrier]

The argument that "weight is meant to be realistic to cats trying to survive" falls apart when most elders are called plump when in reality (or at least my experience) trying to keep weight on a cat more than 13 or elder age is difficult even with modern medicine and science based diets. Imo plump elders are just an unconscious translation of how humans tend to retain weight as they age, which in itself betrays the underlying assumption that the cats are analogs for people. It's an element of the books but not always a well thought out one that betrays the prejudice of the writers lmao

[@pintsizedchaos]

Keeping weight on senior cats is even harder if/when they develop the infamous Hyperthyroidism.

[@NezukosCat]

Alex, I love your animation

[@Weirdanimalboy]

The majority of cats over 13 are one skipped meal away from being a walking skeleton 💀

[@dogjokes2520]

I can vouch for this! My late cat, who passed at age 20, struggled to have weight kept on her once she started to age. She was still a happy and healthy cat up until her final days, she was kept indoors and regularly fed her recommended diet, but she still struggled with gaining weight due to hyperthyroidism, which is common in senior cats. I know in the books, elders are likely often described as plump as a result of them laying around all day and not leaving camp as much, but it’s funny when people try to apply realism to it because that’s not really what happens, at least in my experience.

[@TRNatalie48]

Also, in nature, wouldn't having a large weight and amount of fat be a good thing since it indicates that you're good at getting food and surviving which ups your desirability?

[@sparrowlovesskittles1640]

An HOUR LONG video!!!!!! For me?? In all seriousness, thank you so much Moon for giving Bumble the attention she deserves, and thank you to everyone who voted for Bumble. I really was not expecting her to get so much support. Thanks for helping her be seen ❤️

[@aaliyah3998]

THANKYOU FOR THIS IDEAAA

[@WingedSparrow7]

OMG OUR NAMES ARE THE SAME!!!

[@sparrowlovesskittles1640]

@WingedSparrow7 sparrow club!!

[@WingedSparrow7]

@@sparrowlovesskittles1640 yeaa!!!!!

[@aaliyah3998]

@@sparrowlovesskittles1640 lol I love this sparrow club thing going on in the reply section, so much easier on youtube to have silly wholesome warrior cat moments and not rude people

[@moving1n]

God. I can’t imagine being a kid in a similar situation to Bumble and reading DOTC. Her only crime was being “soft”. They clarify, again, while she dies, that her death and the horror she went through is due to her being soft. All of the “noble” and “good” cats could hardly acknowledge her as a living, breathing thing, even as she took her very LAST breath! And that is so very horrifying! I fear the way that would affect a child and the way they perceive their own victimization more than anything.

[@hyenaedits3460]

As an abuse and bullying victim, it definitely reinforced some toxic beliefs I had about myself. I still struggle with seeing myself as too "soft" and "fragile" to deserve help.

[@nonyabizznu5087]

The weight issue is another thing that could be acceptable if the authors put ANY amount of thought into it. A "fat" wild cat implies that they're eating more than their share. A "fat" wild cat in a Hunting society implies that they're taking more lives than they need to survive. Clan cats have a narrow worldview so when they see a chubby cat, that's where their mind goes. It would be interesting to have a kittypet explain that food is sometimes the only thing they have. It's a different kind of struggle for housepets. As it stands, a "fat" cat in Warrior Cats is the author not liking fat people.

[@PatchworkRose567]

Fr!! If the authors simply had a clan cat mention how a “fat” cat means a cat is greedy to the clans whereas kittypets see a “fat” cat as a healthy or well cared for cat.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Clear Sky's ''Do you believe I'm capable of this'' reminds me of Walt's ''I need you to believe me'' from Breaking Bad. It's such a nasty manipulation tactic.

[@bengal4047]

YES

[@jayfireanimations]

THIS!!!!!!!!11

[@MartiniiYeah]

clear sky is so walter white coded it’s insane 😭😭

[@Marilynn_1275]

YEAH!! Clear Sky is the WORST

[@theMyRadiowasTaken]

i understand what you guys are saying but all i can think of is warrior cats cooking meth now

[@asillybilly781]

For some context for anyone curious about where the Bumble discussion came from: The treatment of Bumble had been a small, contained discussion on Tumblr for a while now, it was Tumblr user Bonefall who really kicked off the discussion and increased the awareness of what an awful hand that Bumble had been dealt and that popularity really took off when Bumble was entered into a "victim of misogyny" poll contest and won. Really awesome video, Moonkitti, it's really awesome to see such a great analysis detailing Bumble and the greater issues in DOTC.

[@obbinss]

i was honestly really surprised bonefall was not name dropped here

[@candicejokegetanystupider6804]

All my homies love Bonefall and also Bumble!!! 🗣🗣📣📣

[@painslut]

Yes! Thank you for mentioning Bonefall. Everyone is talking about the Tumblr poll but they've been talking about it for wayyy longer than that and he really drove the discussion.

[@xRaiofSunshine]

Bonefall’s a real one o7

[@marymccann3500]

DAISY!!! Daisy is such a good character and showcases some actual character growth, going from a scared mother trying to ensure her children survive to a warm matriarch of ThunderClan who raises the kittens in the nursery and is adored by those around her.

[@Axel.b.]

If I had a nickel for everytime moon made an hour+ video on abusive relationships in warrior cats being completely ignored/misconstrued, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that happened twice.

[@sodaboi2154]

The sad part of that is that we’re most likely going to have 3 or more nickels at some point, given how this book series just refuses to write abuse in a way that holds the abuser accountable enough

[@loppie_445]

⁠@@sodaboi2154yeah, we’ll probably get a similar length video whenever she talks about Crookedstar cause if my foggy memory of his super edition serves me correctly not only is she in Starclan but they never properly call her out for how she treated her son just for being “ugly”

[@EeveeHawkFan]

Poor Bumble. holy shit her situation is so fucked... :(

[@SpriteLovuh]

10 yo me didn’t touch dawn of the clans again until I turned 13!

[@sleazyyyy]

hawk tuah

[@Bingus_boingus810]

every time i listen to a modern video about clearsky i feel surprised with how much stuff he actually got away with how is clearsky's actions okay but juniperclaw who i feel made up for his action by sacrificing himself to save shadowkit gets sent to the dark forest

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I don't get it either. If Clear Sky became a good guy after his redemption arc in book 4 that'd be one thing, but no, even after that, at his best he's an insufferable asshole with no consideration for anyone else's feelings, and at his worst he's a physically violent asshole with no consideration for anyone else's feelings.

[@doopydoops2064]

even when he shows up to modern cats as skystar he still manages to be the least reasonable cat in the room at any given point. some things never change.

[@Weirdanimalboy]

@@legrandliseurtri7495The authors even still keep him as an unreasonable stinky cat in stuff like Riverstar’s Home where he decides “A tree has fallen across the river, I’m robbing your house”

[@warriorcatkitty]

FOR REALLL

[@Draconicdisciple]

Juniperclaw broke the Warrior code. Skystar did not as there wasn't a warrior code yet

[@Shiny_Misty]

Oh... OH. Dear....this is...a trip. I went from not knowing who Bumble was...to wanting JUSTICE FOR THIS POOR WOMAN! Holy crap!

[@albuhhhh]

LITERALLY dude i’ve never gotten so emotional listening to one of these but her treatment is so egregious it’s genuinely unbelievable

[@youinanalternateuniverse]

Fun fact: There was a Tumblr poll tournament about characters who were victims of misogynistic writing (@/canonmisogynyvictimstournament) and Bumble beat Alex DeWitt (the character who INVENTED the concept of fridging) at 61.7%/38.3% in a poll with 2,999 votes and then in the finals Cordelia Chase from Buffy at 67.4%/32.6% and 1,716 votes, winning the #1 spot.

[@sparrowlovesskittles1640]

Really fascinating to me that unlike every other talking video, NONE of the top comments are suggestions for the next cat. People are just really invested in Bumble.

[@Cinnaschticks]

My only suggestion was Bumble, so I am just satisfied with being in the moment rn.

[@rhinopoley]

I genuinely don’t understand how the Erins keep writing abuse so realistically and yet can’t write the abusers as actually bad people. How do you hit a bullseye on the wrong target MORE THAN ONCE????

[@klltx2001]

It's because abuse apologism. I mean trying to make Kate see Brambleclaw is abusive and especially was in Squirrelflight's Hope is like pulling teeth down to the nerve in your jawline.

[@meevins]

i genuinely worry for some of them given the lengths they've gone to defend abuse both in and out of universe, tip toeing around the topic and insisting that no they just have a messy relationship! it's an actual abuse! the women did bad stuff too so that weighs it out! it feels very weird given how OFTEN they've pulled this

[@iclynnx]

​@@meevins Isn't like, some of the / most of the writers Christians? That could play a huge part. Religion is often severely misogynistic and abusive.

[@withercat]

One of the things that got bumble a surge of attention was a tumblr event where she WON the canon misogyny victims tournament, getting over a THOUSAND votes over the second place winner of Cordelia Chase from Buffy, and beat characters like Asuna from sao and Alex Dewitt who is the NAMESAKE OF THE FRIDGED TROPE, which really brought her to a lot of people's attention

[@lonemew3503]

The Fridged Trope is truly fucked up- But if Bumble can even win against THAT, you know something is wrong

[@Frostfern94]

What’s a fridged trope?

[@apidgin30]

@@Frostfern94”Fridging” is a term that comes from a Green Lantern comic i think(? unsure, but ik it comes from a popular superhero comic). it comes from a scene where the main character finds his girlfriend murdered in his fridge randomly, for no reason, and refers to when women are killed off (or go through some sort of truama) so a male character can be sad or angry about it. It mostly happens to moms and love interests.

[@xRaiofSunshine]

Bro she even beat ASUNA?!?!? The girl who has an ACTUAL SA scene in the series?!?!? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST 😭😭😭😭😭

[@lilaniloxi]

One of the reasons she beat Alex Dewitt, according to people talking about the poll is that Alex's death was treated as a tragedy in universe, by the characters *and* narrative. Bumble, as said in the video, is not even treated like a person even when she's dying by the narrative.

[@UbyVictor]

Tall Shadow's """advice""" for Bumble is so infuriating!! "Oh your roommate beats you up? Have you tried being nice to him?" Warrior cats' portrayal of abuse is way too realistic and way way way too lightheartedly treated. It makes me so mad!

[@an_apple_a_day]

I'm pretty sure she was telling Bumble to try to be extra nice to the _twolegs,_ not to Tom. Like Tall Shadow's advice is infuriating, but not because she was telling Bumble to suck up to her abuser or anything like that

[@UbyVictor]

@an_apple_a_day That's true but from what I can tell she also told Bumble to try and make peace with Tom. I may be reading between the lines here but the overall situation is just messed up

[@an_apple_a_day]

@@UbyVictor Exactly! What an off-putting passage 😭

[@kingpinetree332]

Welp time to write a fan fiction where Bumble joins the settler cats and she and Turtle Tail become mates and raise Turtle Tail’s kits together because wtf Erins

[@SoulSlugArts]

Pls I need this 😭

[@quicksilveryt4000]

Gray Wing gets hit by a meteorite

[@SoulSlugArts]

Good ending They live happily ever after

[@BugsyBugYT]

i would read this lol

[@Kensuke22]

please send a link so we can read it!

[@crystelthewolf]

I get that bumble probably didnt go to any afterlife the clan cats know of, but i was always mildly disappointed that firestar never met her spirit at any point. They would have neat chemistry as firestar became everything bumble was told she couldnt, firestar was INVITED by starclan themselves, and bumble was fumbled (lmao) so poorly. I think if firestar could have witnessed a flashback of bumble's treatment by the founders and her death, he would have been PISSED. I wish she could have been maybe a spirit guide for firestar's quest and rebuilding skyclan. Id love to see her become a guardian spirit over her murderer's reformed clan being built entirely from the ground up by mostly kittypets. Screw clear sky, this is bumble's clan now

[@MadisonNiederer]

I just can't... 😭😡😭😡😭😡😭😡😭😡😭

[@AllMyFriendsRFruit]

Bumble spirit guide au when? Seriously tho I’d jump on any multi animator projects with the plot

[@feathered_turtle]

bumbleclan… the name needs workshopping

[@EaseeCheesee]

Adding Bumble to my time travel fix it fanfic IMMEDIATELY!!

[@LuckyShyCorgi]

​@@AllMyFriendsRFruit I might consider hosting one 👀 (With credits to all of you, of course!)

[@RoseWolf12]

The way my jaw dropped when they turned her away... I cried angry tears. It really does feel like this series keeps limboing under its own bar it sets for how I expect them to treat sensitive topics.

[@starbullets]

the scene of bumble desperately trying to convince tall shadow to let her stay is literally horror to me. knowing how she must be panicking, knowing she quite literally has no where else to go and she came to these cats because she truly trusted that they might help her because they invited her once before, and knowing that the most they're worried about is the "correct" way to tell her no. same thing with her death scene, that is a genuinely horrifying situation to put in a children's book. the only reason it ISN'T is because it isn't written in her perspective.

[@BlackHeartKitti2]

I wonder if anyone has written it from her perspective

[@blue-eli]

BUMBLES DEATH MAKES ME SO MAD. It doesn’t make any of them consider the fact that they were in the wrong for turning her away (OH LORD the fucking thing with them minimising her abuse like “I’ve had worse” only to be confronted with the fact that it was so bad that she chose to be alone and starving in the woods over going back,,, and none of them think if they had tried to help her in anyway she might have actually lived??? nobody carried that guilt with them??? TURTLE TAIL her “friend” didn’t carry that with her?????????) and AND they are having this whole argument about whether Clear Sky killed her OVER HER STILL LIVING BODY. SHE WAS STILL ALIVE AND NOT UNCONSCIOUS ACTIVELY TRYING TO SPEAK AND NOWONE MADE A MOVE TO COMFORT HER UNTIL THE END????? She could have died with the last thing she heard being cats arguing over whether or not her murder killed her. It was horrifying

[@MartiniiYeah]

i agree. it was genuinely sickening to read about everyone debating whether or not clear sky was guilty whenever they could’ve done something, ANYTHING, to help bumble. no one (except for turtle tail’s horrible attempt) comforted her, or even attempted to do do anything.

[@BongwaterTheOpossum]

turtle tail and bumble are just Good Luck, Babe!

[@lonemew3503]

omg yes

[@chickenandric3]

REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[@shojodraws3399]

The fact that warrior cats can get away with demonizing an abusive victim is. Wild.

[@MartiniiYeah]

the fact that they’ve done this several times as well makes it even worse. i don’t know how the writers have gotten away with this stuff for this long.

[@crownedintitanfire]

This is why I quit reading Warriors. Too much of this crap and I got tired of it.

[@Cinnaschticks]

Wanna see em do it again? ✨

[@toastclaw1457]

squilf is in the same boat unfortunately

[@ardyaardvark4047]

Bumble: I’m being abused, please help me Tall Shadow: have you considered snacking?

[@oliearts8074]

One thing I’ve seen brought up about the scene of the wild cats turning her away that I don’t think was mentioned here, is how they talk about how they can’t possibly keep around a cat who can’t hunt …. right in front of jagged peak. The disabled guy. Who they took in after clear sky threw him out. Who can’t hunt. Nobody acknowledges this fact in the scene, jagged peak doesn’t say anything during the scene except to call bumble fat, the apparent double standard is never brought up.

[@daydreamer8941]

Now just out of spite I want to see someone write an au where Bumble gets reincarnated as Firestar

[@moonscalee]

I WOULD READ THAT SO FAST

[@AkiraTux]

Trans Firestar?

[@Cinnaschticks]

I WANT

[@Cinnaschticks]

Either that or ghost mentor Bumble. Not for the fighting stuff, but for the other issues. Now I'm thinking about an AU where she haunts Scourge. Would she make him less violent? Would they make each other worse because the clans wronged them? Would she be unable to stop his crimes? Fun ideas.

[@ionthezeraora]

i've been thinking about this for so long and i'm just like. hell yes. please.

[@clementinekitten8305]

"i don't really believe in characters 'deserving' something. i do not sit here and say, 'oh yes, bumble deserved this and tom didn't.' it could be true, but from a writing perspective, i don't really think that we should think that way. but at the same time, it's inherently frustrating. it's inherently frustrating to watch all of these, you know, vaguely interesting female characters die so suddenly and randomly and without resolution." extremely thoughtful and salient commentary at the end. this is honestly horrific. i didn't finish dotc and the only thing i remember from it is how mad the way gray wing and clear sky treated storm made me. i knew, generally, that bumble was a victim of wc misogyny but those passages of her trying to get into the clans are... disturbing, especially for a series ostensibly for children. moon's little doodle of starving bumble hunting almost made me want to cry for some reason. poor bumble. poor, sweet bumble

[@daydreamer8941]

I also feel like their a double standards with the sisters because they are always called out as bad parents, but their plenty of Toms not involved in their kits' lives. I feel like the sisters could be really cool if they where ultized properly. I mean they could have been the warrior equivalent of Amazon Warriors

[@lj2659]

LITERALLY. Like yea the sisters are bad parents but so is literally half the toms in the series. So many of them have no relationship with their kids. Its almost like when a female character does something its made out to be worse then when a male character does the exact same thing😐

[@tanagerthenight-sky424]

It's kinda scary to think that such.....questionable material can be presented in a children's book without being addressed. It's not inherently wrong to include such themes like prejudice and xenophobia, but they need to be handled properly and negative/damaging view points need to be explicitly condemned within text to make it clear to the predominantly children audience that thinking like the xenophobic characters in the book is bad. A young reader can probably understand why needless violence is wrong but may not understand the complexities of xenophobia and why it needs to be overcome. So it's refreshing to see long-time readers of the series analyze these themes and explicitly point out why they're damaging.

[@clementinekitten8305]

THIS. this comment articulates what i felt rereading the books as an adult. it's crazy how often abuse and discrimination is brought up and just... not dealt with? at all? it's as if just because they're cat books, there's no possible way what happens in the narratives could reflect real life (even tho moon has a video about this exact issue -- that the cats are just people) sure, they're cats, but it's messed up that a shadowclan warrior just... calls brightheart and jaypaw "cripples" and the narrative keeps on going

[@tanagerthenight-sky424]

@clementinekitten8305 I wholeheartedly agree. The "they're just animals" excuse that's commonly used for series like warriors falls apart when we factor in social, moral, political, medical, etc, advancement of the characters in question. A child reading this series will take note of these instances of abuse, xenophobia, ableism, etc, and upon seeing these things be normalized in this highly human society, form similar connections to these issues in human society. Which is dangerous. I think one of the most concerning aspects presented in the books is how several "romantic" relationships are handled. The way the toms treat she cats is....strange in most cases, and seeing as how "relationships" is a theme that readers are most likely to encounter in their own lives, it's unfortunate that young readers often internalize the unhealthy behaviors of warriors relationships and start to see them as normal....

[@Frostfern94]

Yeah like… the Spottedleaf stuff that just never really…

[@opheliapurple]

No seriously, those passages where Bumble is being degraded for asking for help are genuinely so concerning. Was there no oversight for this? It’s one thing to be messy about your themes in general. But this seems super irresponsible as a series for children.

[@MartiniiYeah]

the writing in these books is genuinely some of the worst. it’s terrible how things like the treatment of bumble, spottedleaf’s book, and many other very clearly abusive relationships amongst characters are depicted as being normal or not severe.

[@ArcticFFox]

I like the sapphic implications of Turtletail leaving her male love interest to go and live with her new gal pal.

[@fozzyspots]

This is why I’ve never understood the fandom worship of Gray Wing. Maybe it’s because I read DOTC when I was older - I was 21 - but the whole time I was thinking “this man… is awful.” I’m so glad the tide may begin to shift now. Because there’s such a difference between characters who are SUPPOSED to be prejudiced and aggressive (Wind, Leopardstar), who I love, and characters who are supposed to be kind and wise and fair but behave in infuriatingly and disgusting ways - because it shows that the narrative supports them. I will always hate Gray Wing. Bumble is a rare example in Warriors where what she went through makes me physically nauseous, it’s so horrifying. The fact that cats stood around and chatted while she was dying instead of trying to help her (when Cloud Spots was right there!!!!!) - it’s… evil, and so reminiscent of the way women have always been treated.

[@MiloNgoReborn]

Cloud Spots didn’t have any lines in that scene iirc, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have just stood there and stared at her if there was anything to do. Her wounds are described in a way that I’m pretty sure no med cat could’ve saved her.

[@lj2659]

I agree with you 100%. There are cat who do bad actions but the narrative (and fandom) portrays those things as bad and thats great! But there are cats like Gray Wing who have said and done HORRIBLE things who get the "soft boy" treatment and its so crazy to me. Almost every character has good and bad things about them and it drives me crazy that people cant even acknowledge that

[@gemstone71552]

If Clear Sky was in the modern Clans he would be labelled evil so quickly

[@Catlove13574]

Suggestion (2nd try): Kestrelflight. I find it very interesting of how he is only really recognized from the ship Kestrelflight x jayfeather, the idea that he had no apprentice up until A Starless Clan, and how he has no parents, he basically just spawns. As irrelevant as he is, I do wish he had some sort of story other than just being the only WindClan medicine cat for a while. That is all I have

[@SpriteLovuh]

Kestrel flight keeps me up at night

[@kateb6699]

Alright they're only allowed to keep doing DOTC cameos in newer arcs if they write a novella where all their ghosts line up and apologize to Bumble.

[@ironvlogger9712]

Gray wing doesn't like Bumble because she stole the girlfriend that he didn’t pay attention too

[@lonemew3503]

Lol yes-

[@SonarTheBat]

Eh. They weren't mates when Turtle Tail left. She didn't confess then threw a tantrum and ran away because he had a crush on someone else.

[@fozzyspots]

Also LOVE that you always explore the nuanced and potentially “controversial” aspects of things as well, like Turtle Tail possibly being motivated by protecting herself and her kits in turning Bumble away.

[@ApricityGlow]

Speaking of cats scorning everything about kittypets when it doesn't make sense to their background, this also happens with not Riverstar in his book. After coming back from being holed up in a Twoleg den all leaf-bare, he feels ASHAMED about it when talking to Night??? Where the hell did he learn this shame when he grew up in a culture embracing food from Twolegs? He wouldn't know outside cats would look down on that.

[@ScorpSteed]

The way Tom describes his treatment of Turtle Tail and Bumble as “playing” makes my skin crawl And I know these are children’s books and nobody wants to talk about this subject, but Tom seems like the kind of guy to not stop at physical abuse Well, I said it was a children’s book, but that a book meant for a young impressionable audience gives such a scarily realistic depiction of abuse and have its main characters respond to the abuse victim with disdain and disinterest is sickening!

[@sunnflare]

No one wants to talk about it, and I don’t think he would have stopped at death, if you can catch my vagueness. Do I really believe Turtle fell in love with him and had kits? No. But it’s a kids book, and no one wants to tag that issue on the books. :(

[@meeplol145]

@@sunnflareI’ve seen someone on tumblr talk about the implications, so that’s something at least!

[@lonemew3503]

It's not a stretch to believe Tom sexually abused Turtle Tail as well-

[@darkninjafirefox]

I did read dawn of the clans. And its abuse apologism made me so angry i never finished the arc

[@thepandabookkeeper3180]

It's a miracle I finished it as a kid, I can't even get through half as an adult now, it hurts my soul

[@darkninjafirefox]

​@@thepandabookkeeper3180 I regularly had to set the book aside because reading the scenes with Bumble infuriated me so mucb

[@ii_caelus_ii]

omg the scene where clear sky was convincing thunder to leave the clan pissed me off soooo bad because grey wing was just SITTING THERE. thunder was basically his son, and if clear sky was lying to him right in front of my face like that I would have killed him 😭 clear sky left him to die WHY ARE YOU JUST NOT SAYING ANYTHING GREY WING OMG

[@addisonvaughan99]

@@ii_caelus_iithis is warrior cats, if Grey Wing said anything, Thunder would have gotten mad at him for trying stop him from being with his father and then Clear Sky woulda have passive aggressively added onto to that before turning back to Thunder in a charming voice and saying: “When the fire settles down, we will return home together, as father and son.” Or sumthing like.

[@Mossyspring]

Just throwing this against the wall. Whitewing talking video. She is quite literally caught between two generations. Her parents is the most popular ship in warrior cats, yet people don't care much for Whitewing. She is the mother to two incredibly important characters. People forget who she is. She has a lot of potential, in contrasting with Leafpool and other cats. Also just because Moonkitti going through HOW LONG SHE WAS AN APPRENTICE AND THE ASHWHITE STUFF WOULD BE REALLY FUNNY!!! -#1 Whitewing fan Also justice for bumble

[@Starlight_787-r9k]

Yeah! I love Whitewing!

[@emilypizzitola4834]

Her relationship with Birchfall is also super interesting, they frequently disagree on clan issues and will even speak against eachother in meetings, but are shown to have one of the sweetest relationships in the series, frequently showing them hunting, napping, or patrolling together. Whitewing’s apprenticeship was also specifically lengthened, by her own request, so Birchfall wouldn’t be the only apprentice.

[@Starlight_787-r9k]

@@emilypizzitola4834 so true, they're so cute together

[@Mossyspring]

@@emilypizzitola4834 I personally really like them as divorced friends but I do think their relationship is nice

[@LightSabby]

She COOKED thank you chef

[@HarmlessJesting]

I'm not even 23 minutes in and I already hate Gray Wing. This is coming from someone who liked Gray Wing before hearing about these passages exist. Justice for Bumble!

[@silber_lowe]

Same

[@lizardparty_]

they could never make me like you grey wing

[@JustDuckiest]

Yeah, he's only really a good cat if you compare him to his dumpster of a brother

[@MartiniiYeah]

it was extremely disappointing to reread dotc and realize how horrible of a person gray wing was 😭 i used to adore him, but he’s genuinely one of the worst people in the arc.

[@lakefeatherss]

​@MartiniiYeah agreed, as such a little kid i never realized how awful he was, along with so many of the other characters in how they acted. loved them as a kid, despise them now

[@tawnypelt69420]

it feels more and more like the sheer amount of fatphobia in warriors is just because they're jealous other cats aren't starving and need to overcompensate

[@deweyr_fisher]

i think a lot of it stems from their treatment of kittypets as them being lazy/well-fed when they actually made the smarter decision to not join the cat cult in the woods lol

[@testerwulf3357]

I agree on this. But it also feels like the authors own views going into the books 😬😬

[@kneelessnightcat9164]

The fatphobia comes in because the authors are british.

[@Frostfern94]

@@kneelessnightcat9164We’re pretty obese in the UK too so that can’t be it. That would only be an acceptable reason if you’d say the same if the authors were American.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

30:55 I feel like the authors wrote this scene purely as a way to make the Wind/Tall Shadow leadership conflict progress, without pausing to consider the morality of the situation or to see things from Bumble's pov. That's the most charitable explanation I have for all of this. Edit: Oh ok you're kind of addressing this immediately after.

[@TKDPrincess1Gold]

I know that Tall Shadow was technically giving Bumble advice to endear her to her humans, not Tom, but the whole situation is UNCOMFORTABLY reminiscent of women who tell other women, “oh, he hit you? Have you tried not annoying him?”

[@awoum]

"15 minutes in but we're going to start talking about Bumble!" I love that this video turned into _let's talk about what's wrong with warriors writing_

[@elisaabreu6039]

All this story about whether Clear Sky killed Bumble or not; i will use my knowledge of zoology to solve this. In nature, felines like cats have retractable claws and they can use their claws for many things like climbing, marking territory or fighting. However, canids like foxes cannot do all these things because their claws are made for running, not for fighting, so they just attack using their mouths. Bumble's body was covered in claw marks, not bite marks, but a fox would never use its claws to kill a cat because they can't. So.... Only another cat would be able to kill Bumble this way. Also, sorry if there's any mistake in my comment, my english is not perfect at all.

[@Ahappydude419]

Honestly, an ABSURDLY underrated and forgotten character is Leopardfoot. Since the girl is Tigerstar's mother and Pinestar's former mate and even so she is always kind of forgotten in the fandom, I would like a talking about her, people don't recognize how much she may have been through... If only the Erins cared about side characters...

[@Spottedstorm27]

Overrated? You mean underrated? But agreed

[@Duothimir]

​@@Spottedstorm27Possibly overlooked.

[@_exolite]

Bumble’s and Turtle Tail’s deaths always felt so sudden and out of nowhere, and honestly never made any sense to me. I however, now need a 4 hour video essay on warrior cats sexism.

[@Cinemamuffin]

It's not 4 hours, but you might like "Gender in Warrior Cats" by Sunnyfall! Gives a very good overview of the number of female characters, how they're treated, how often they end up coming into positions of power, etc.

[@alix4935]

this is an incredible analysis. i am now grateful that i stopped reading new warriors books at DOTC. i would have been ten and experiencing domestic violence when i would have read about bumble. it is so unspeakably wrong that warriors drops horrific stories like these as unexamined side plots. it is morally inexcusable to tell a child audience that turning away a domestic violence victim begging for help is something that “good guys” do.

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

I couldn't agree more!

[@uglyfense7754]

I don’t think it was ever pretended turning her away was a “good guy” decision

[@BroKenYaKnow]

@@uglyfense7754 The "good guys" were the ones she went to for help, and they chose to do nothing. Every character relevant to her in the book says this was the correct and right decision. EVEN TO HER DYING BREATH. She's dying and the last thing she hears is someone she considered her friend, that could have helped her, say basically "I told you so". The "good guys" do this. The main protagonist, the guy you're suppose to be rooting for, is resentful of her as she's turned away. Her only hope of getting help and the "good guy" do not care about her or her problems. And the aftermath of her death? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. She is entirely forgotten after this. Her death served no narrative purpose beyond a chance to see Clear Sky's manipulate Gray Wing again. Which would have already happened because he killed another cat 2 seconds before that. And that cat is plot relevant, not her. The books creates her to die and be forgotten.

[@MiloNgoReborn]

I doubt that’s the message you would’ve gotten as a 10y/o, if Moon’s explanation of her initial thoughts on Bumble are any indicator. Children can read a lot of dark and disturbing content that just flies over their heads. Does not excuse the message the team is writing, though.

[@petrbacik7104]

​@@MiloNgoReborn womp womp

[@GweenOfTea]

I want you to talk about sooo many of DOTC characters bc really so many of the female cast was done dirty, Turtle Tail too imo Gray Wing was so controlling of her and then gets abused by a different Tom, then she just dies The fandom mischaracterization of Gray Wing could make me rant for hours

[@aaliyah3998]

I KNOW I LOVE DOTC

[@ii_caelus_ii]

I'm in the middle i think of DOTC and I really like grey wing, he has a lot going for him, but god the way he treated bumble made me so upset. she was being abused by Tom, and yes she hid the fact turtle tails kits would be taken, but she didn't fully understand how that would effect turtle tail, because why would she ? she was abused, tried to find help, and was killed for trying to save herself. like grey wing I love you, but a cat being kinda annoying is not a good reason to mistreat a them 😭

[@aaliyah3998]

@@ii_caelus_ii ikr, I feel like DOTC is underrated, but the toms in the series are mainly jerks or leaders, smh and like what the person commented said the females were done dirty 😭 Gray Wing was so blind to turtle tail, and then when he does realize, he’s so controlling and protective of her, then she goes and gets abused by a different cat and has kits, comes back, her camp mates are still wary of her for turning into a kittypet, and then she tries to save her kits from Tom, then she just dies on the road. Such a horrible ending for her, honestly!

[@aaliyah3998]

@@ii_caelus_ii Also, I feel like Bumble was just one of those times when the author just made her exist to add to the plot, just like snowkit? (correct me if I’m wrong), because moonkitti made a whole video about him too, saying how he just was born for the plot, and that’s why he quickly just dies. That’s what I think about Bumble. She’s just a character to add on to the story, and then her death is like “oh no, an innocent cat died!” Like we just met Bumble in the book, and then she just dies? Yeah, the females really were done dirty.

[@aaliyah3998]

in DOTC most of the females die shortly after they arrived to the forest, or after they kit, or sometimes very rarely they turn out to be a leader. (Wind Runner, Tall Shadow) and it’s just kinda sad how sexist it is if you look at it closely. This continues on in the books, of course, but it isn’t as bad as it was in DOTC now with the newer books.

[@Windpurr]

Too bad the warriors team will never admit to they're bad writing for female characters. I bet in their minds Bumble ended up in the dark forest for bothering graywing.

[@crownedintitanfire]

Because of this reason, I dropped reading Warriors altogether. Stuff discussed in the video and other things just had me sick and tired of the series. And I’m glad I dropped the series. I’m just going to continue with Wings of Fire instead because that book series doesn’t have as much severe issues like Warriors does (please correct me if I’m wrong).

[@rizaadonn]

I'm ashamed to admit, but when I was much younger, I justified Tom in the middle of the 5th arc when he attacked One Eye after he injured his daughter. I was exactly the person who was subjected to the wrong morality of DoTC and defended the character in every possible way, who was an obvious abuser. Now, having experienced the same situation as Bumble, I realize how stupid it was on my part to protect Tom in any way. It's horrible. I wouldn't want other children to be exposed to the same character perception. Thank you for this video

[@demon_lamb]

19:20 hi! about tom, i believe the wiki mentions that he was a rescue that bumble's humans took in because tom's original owners didnt feed him properly.

[@juliawertz5282]

Sees it's a video about Bumble: oh this is gonna be depressing Sees it's over an hour long: OH this is gonna be DEPRESSING The length makes sense. The situation with Bumble is completely insane. The scene where she gets rejected by Tall Shadow is so confusing. Everyone acts so profoundly (and uncharacteristically) unreasonable that it seems like the book *intends* for them to seem wrong, and you expect them to realize their mistakes later and learn their lesson. But that doesn't happen. Bumble just becomes a target of detached pity, and then her brutal death ends up being a piece of political ammunition where her identity barely matters. It's just mind-boggling from a writing standpoint. Like, hey, what was the point of this? WHAT WAS THE POINT, EXACTLY? Also I don't interpret the book as deliberately villainizing Bumble and wanting the reader to think she's bad. My interpretation is that her situation is just meant to be vaguely pitiable but mostly INEVITABLE. Which I think is even MORE cruel and disturbing???

[@PokemonkaDub]

I hate that they didn't even think to gang up and beat Tom into a pulp for harming her.

[@CoolattasLab]

Seeing people defend DOTC and the Shitfuck Brothers with their lives is so.... tiring. Like, the books try VERY HARD to make the readers see Bumble as unreasonable for thinking her friend would help her escape from their shared abuser. And said abuser gets a redemption death! Its. baffling.

[@ShmurplesArePurple]

an hour long moonkitti video about fatphobia and sexism??? We have truly been blessed (this video was soooooo good, oh my gosh)

[@jzas3916]

a cute chubby lesbian being happy and living with her girlfriend?? “oh yeah we’re gonna ruin your life,” says everyone

[@tundra5771]

I’d love it if you’d talk about the original Thunderclan elders. Dappletail, Smallear, Halftail, One-eye, and Patchpelt

[@Lazy_.Lavender]

PLEASE I need this!

[@littlebluecomet]

Ooh I think this could be a fun set of characters to talk about all at once, kind of like how Moon did so with the Patrol kits ^^

[@kamykleander5203]

"she hates nobody and everybody hates her" noo bumble why :(((

[@kamykleander5203]

what the fuck is this story im actually quite upset

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I never realized how implausible Clear Sky's explanation was lol. I always assumed this was the one awful thing he didn't do(well, sort of, because as you said, his version of events still makes him indirectly responsible for her death).

[@timickoo]

I'd love it if you could talk about Puddleshine! I feel like he doesn't get enough recognition. Dang, I barely remember DOTC but I was just reminded of how absolutely sad I felt for poor Bumble. And also got reminded of myself actually DEFENDING Clear Sky. Sweet Jesus.

[@VixensHeart]

I remember reading dawn of the clans and seeing nothing really wrong, I felt super bad for misty and bumble but it was only when I read it again a year or so later did I realize how badly the cats, and especially grey wing and clear sky, treated the outsiders.

[@krispykreamn4702]

I've only ever read the back half of the DotC books so I never knew about poor Bumble and the way her situation was written and "handled" by the characters is absolutely infuriating. It also reminds me of another Erin Hunter series, Survivors, where the main character's adopted daughter is shoved aside in favor of his biological kids and is repeatedly a victim of racism which he never does anything to defend her against despite being admired by the entire pack and being in a position of power where he could easily help her or discourage his packmates. He even goes as far as nearly blinding her when she is accused of murder by a random ass woman. And when she leaves the pack to join his sister who actually appreciates and is kind to her, she comes back to the racist pack and is nearly blinded again but narrowly escapes it by tracking down one of her dad's bio kids and revealing the real murderer in the process. Her dad never apologizes to her, nor does the pack, and instead of going back to the sister's pack shes stays in that horrible position and it's treated like a good thing, and that she has a lot of grace for returning and forgiving the pack. Survivors' depiction of racism is just so infuriating as the dogs they are racist towards, dobermans, are justified for being prejudiced against as the narrative presents them as inherently evil except for two individuals, one of which being the adopted daughter and the other the main character's brother in law, and those two individuals are forever treated horribly by the pack.

[@meeplol145]

Well it’s a good thing I stopped reading Survivors because I got bored of it lol. That sounds so awful- thank god i didn’t read that far-

[@clarehidalgo]

Which is just reinforcing a Hollywood movie stereotype of dobermans, they are very sweet dogs.

[@Explosionsboomboom]

I hate Lucky!!! He's so terrible. Genuinely don't get how people like him. He's awful in both arcs. I wish Bella didn't die just so that Arrow and Storm didn't rejoin the Wild Pack. I always hated the ending. Just leaves me with an uneasy feeling

[@krispykreamn4702]

@@Explosionsboomboom Fr idk why I kept reading through the second arc because each page just made me more and more angry. Storm and Arrow should've just made their own pack tbh and I feel like the only reason Bella and Arrow's pups were a thing was to keep them from doing that.

[@Explosionsboomboom]

@@krispykreamn4702 Real! I do want to make one correction on what you said, which actually kind of makes it worse, and that's that Lucky actually DOES apologize. It's during The Final Battle where he apologizes specifically to Bella but means it to all 3 of them, but it more seems like he wants something out of the apology than to actually, you know, apologize. He says that he apologizes on behalf of the entire pack for how they treated the 3 of them, and says that they should rejoin because Lucky's pups and Bella's pups should grow up together because they're kin. Although Arrow's expression is noted as unreadable, Storm is literally shaking her head no to Bella. Bella ends up declining his offer. And then Storm and Arrow join anyway!

[@ihaveaname699]

Moonkitti: why is it so long for such a minor character? Me, who hasn't read DOTC: well wait how long is i-- OH MY GOD

[@ChaoticbratDND]

I think this was the worst part of Grey Wing. Also Tom is accepted into SkyClan for a time despite also being a kitty pet but Tom isn't a silly woman.... he's a wife beater I know they didn't want Grey Wing to be as honorable as Thunderstar (since that takes away from Thunderclans morals) but I hated this in every way too Worst still, Turtle Tail's daughter wants to join SkyClan and stay with her wife beater "Dad" ..... Like WHY?!!

[@LibraryofAcousticMagic3240]

tbf I think the children never really understood what was going on with Tom. They probably just remember him as a fun uncle or sth along those lines. Despite him being a horrible person I don't doubt that he was probably giving the kits a more or less pleasant time while they were with him. They wouldn't ask to stay with him if he didnt.

[@EagleTarget-gt4fm]

That’s what I truly hate about DoTC, Gray Wing should have definitely told the kits about who their father truly was.

[@Houzukigirl]

This video reminded me of how much I despise Gray Wing. I will never understand this perception of him the fandom has, that he's a good dad,,, bro is actually INSANE god he's awful to everyone

[@silber_lowe]

I guess people see gray wing as a good guy cause many of them (me for example) read dotc while still being kids/preteens and just couldn’t understand how horrible the whole situation is I genuinely thought gray wing was the most sane person in dotc until now

[@cornfederatee]

honestly most people only like protagonist characters because they're easier to agree with (you read from their point of view), and some of their personalities (ivypool) if jayfeather was a background character, people would hate him for his rude behavior

[@sandwraith448]

I like Grey Wing a lot because he makes mistakes like everyone and it wasnt his decision to let Bumble in. Wind was true asshole

[@KZFathom]

@@silber_lowe my theory is that gray wing is inextricably tied to clear sky, who is worse in almost every way. clear sky makes almost everyone's life around him worse (which makes him fascinating) and is especially controlling towards gray wing, someone whom he knows trusts him unconditionally most of the time. this puts gray wing, a lot of the time, in a position where he is potentially a victim; he's being manipulated by clear sky. however, even completely independent of clear sky, gray wing constantly is unkind and makes questionable decisions. he's motivated by spite, and has absolutely no patience for cats like bumble, turtle tail, jagged peak, and i would say to an extent thunder basically, clear sky is doing a wonderful job of lowering everyone's standards.

[@lilaniloxi]

my defense is that i was like 14 and haven't read the books in literal years (i now also hate him) also! i haven't checked! maybe the french translation """softened""" the blow or something? but it's probably that i just blocked it out of my memory!

[@emerald9194]

Literally everyone who comes into contact with Bumble is one of the villains in her story and directly had a hand in her death and it makes me angry that I remembered so many of these characters (especially Gray Wing) as great people.

[@LibraryofAcousticMagic3240]

same. he used to be one of my favourite characters...

[@mothwingthemedicinecat]

Edit: after watching the video: Good video, I agree with it. When I was rereading DOTC everything about Bumble made me uncomfortable over a hour long talking video for Bumble, she deserves it. Something to come back to tomorrow though when i have my road trip thats 11 hours, i’ll save it for them

[@pintsizedchaos]

What clan cats think being fat is, is literally just being a healthy weight cat 90% of the time

[@ethaaaaaaaanm6885]

You should make a video on Purdy. He's the best character in any scene he's in. He crosses paths with Sol and rescues a patrol of clan cats at one point. And he's old and has a lot of stories to tell, so a compilation of the stories he's told apprentices about his life would be fantastic.

[@CrossCalipso]

I love the country accent you’ve given Gray Wing in this. He sounds like a friendly thing, despite being borderline sexist and xenophobic

[@SkrthSkrth]

Can you do a talking video about Spotfur next? I think she’s one of the best parts of TBC.

[@katstronaut]

YEAHHH SPOTFUR

[@vrubin]

AGREE 100%

[@-TVKiko-]

yessssss

[@SecretstormWCUE]

YESESESSSSSSS

[@monicadokray5677]

Wasn't she a main character? I don't think Moonkitti would talk about a cat that already has enough attention

[@applekoi8639]

Gosh, I remember bumble. I felt so especially bad for her, even as hard as the narrative pushed that she wasn’t the victim.

[@sunnflare]

23:40 this is like, in human American terms, escaping an abusive household to enlist in the military but your neighbor across the street who’s dealing with enlistment or whatever, refuses to let you in because he thinks you’re too soft for war and condemns you to staying in your abusive household-as if she’s not too soft for being beat every day-because he’s a friend of your mutual friend and her ex’s kids live with him. Also he’s misogynistic and is trying really hard to convince you that being beat is *your* fault and you (and only you) needs to fix the problem while you’re begging and crying on your knees for help.

[@SunneyRabbit]

Thank you for talking about all the ickiness surrounding Bumble's situation with Tom! You're always so articulate when you talk about these topics within the Warrior Cats series.

[@lMlNY0URWALL]

Can you do a video on Goldenflower everyone talks about her husband and not her

[@Moonkitti]

You're in luck, that's literally next week

[@lMlNY0URWALL]

@@Moonkittiomg yay

[@lzrshark617]

@@Moonkitti Sweet! So many really interesting side characters around Tigerstar don't get enough narrative attention when you'd think they would, considering he's one of the series' biggest villains that they literally had to double-kill in order to finally let him go and use someone else

[@mushroomleg3151]

I realize Graywing strays farther and farther from the image I had of him every day.

[@starterking]

I would like there to be a talking video on the strongest medicine cat in all warriors history Mudfur.

[@queencharlene]

I love Mudfur so much! Him being Leopardstar's dad is a fascinating dynamic; he must be so disgusted with her actions (or lack thereof) in The Darkest Hour. Mudfur/ Runningnose is also my favorite rare-pair ship in warriors

[@cornfederatee]

background character parents (not sandgorse) >

[@MartiniiYeah]

OH MY GOD, YES!!!! i NEED a talking video about mudfur. he and leopardstar’s dynamic and the way he viewed her actions was extremely interesting, and im very disappointed that not more people talk about him.

[@christinafrazier1364]

I'm starting to think that I thought Gray Wing was good only because Clear Sky was so absolutely awful in comparison

[@ThatOrangeCat101]

Can you talk about Star Flower? Like how her father’s reputation literally destroyed hers and she managed to pull both father and son accidentally 😭 and she goes from the most badass smexy woman in the books to a housewife between the last book of Dawn of the Clans to Thunderstar’s novella thingy (sorry I forgot the name) and, last but not least, was she really evil in One Eye’s entry? Like what the freak I’ve only read 5 of 6 of the Dawn of The Clans series and I’m so confused.

[@aaliyah3998]

YES

[@ApricityGlow]

Accidentally?

[@aaliyah3998]

@@ApricityGlow yeah, I kinda agree that I don’t think she did accidentally. She clearly manipulated thunder, and then she probably manipulated clear sky so she gained trust again. Don’t really see “accidentally,” but I just want moonkitti to talk about star flower, she’s an interesting character

[@ApricityGlow]

@@aaliyah3998 Not just probably, she also clearly did with Skystar. I recall a scene of Thunderstar spying on them where Star Flower slides her tail under Skystar's chin like Thunderstar said she did with himself.

[@aaliyah3998]

@@ApricityGlow Oh, yeah now that you bring that up I clearly remember! Thank you for the correction lol, yeah I feel like most toms in dotc are just awed by the shecats beauty and then immediately trusts and gives everything all for her. just like thunder did for star flower, and violet.

[@SunnyTheOpossum]

I know these super long videos take SO much work, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t literally kill to be able to watch stuff like this by you all the time. They’re just so much fun

[@Bingus_boingus810]

When reading dawn of the clans I was really disgusted by the way bumble was handled, her life was cruel for no reason, it didn't feel like it helped or even effected the narrative, just felt horrible

[@ilovewillowrosenberg]

Edit 3: My suggestion after watching the video is that you shoulf talk about Petal DotC because i love her and she does a lot of good and bad things and is generally a super interesting character! 1:14 yeah as far as i can tell it was spurred on by a tumblr user known for their rewrite! He talks a lot about DotC and Bumble specifically Cant wait to watch this video! I love Bumble

[@hollyclawws]

bumble also won a misogynistic writting character tournament on tumblr,winning against characters like lisa death note and asuna sword art online

[@alexandravazquez4183]

said tumblr user kinda lead the charge on bumble winning that misogyny poll as well. bonefall my beloved

[@thecupidintraining]

bonefall mention! his rewrite is so good and he's been leading the charge against misogyny against characters like Bumble, lizardstripe, etc.

[@ilovewillowrosenberg]

​@hollyclawws oh that's right! I remember that

[@JayJay-rd3qm]

@@hollyclawwsMisogynistic?