More Dune Books! (The controversial ones)

[@groobly6070]

Dune Encyclopedia is the true expanded lore and nobody can convince me otherwise.

[@filmandpage1138]

Agreed

[@NotQuiteGuru]

That's fair of course. You have an unsatisfied audience either way you look at it. YOu don't get an end to your story. And I have to be satisfied with books that don't share Frank Herbert's Genius. But to be fair, BH & KJA's books are fine... They're good novels when compared to contemporary sci-fi. They obviously PALE in comparison to Frank's writings. But if you let it go that no one will live up to Frank, then you can accept what are Decent Novels. (yes some of their novels are absolute trash, most notably Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune lol). But it's as good a wrap to the story that we're going to get. Frank was a genius, his 6 are the best, but the newer ones are good 'nuff.

[@massacolonel5950]

Fuckin A

[@invaderzod8092]

You know something’s wrong when there’s more Brian Herbert/ Kevin J Anderson books that actual real Frank Herbert Dune books

[@filmandpage1138]

Yup, those guys are just churning out Dune books like crazy.

[@filmandpage1138]

@sean bowman I'll eventually make my way through them all.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

And I'm eternally grateful, despite some disappointments.

[@acr08807]

You know there's something wrong when there are any Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books.

[@robertduran7562]

I have enjoyed them so far.

[@MrGlenbw]

I appreciate Brian and Kevin's efforts to continue to expand one of sci-fi's most compelling universes that Frank Herbert has established way back in 1965 (now that we're gonna get Dune: Prophecy and hopefully more future TV spin-offs in the near future, which will definitely be inspired by the duo's books). However, I have to admit I'm a little mixed with the quality of their books: primarily they lack the grace and nuances of Frank's writing prose, not to mention they tend to lean into the fantastical and the unbelievable (I roll my eyes whenever I think of the ending from Sandworms of Dune), something you won't find in the original six books (yes, that includes the one with the human/sandworm hybrid).

[@phosphoros3050]

Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson clearly intended for their Dune "sequels" to serve as a sort of advertisement for their prequels. That they retconned the identities of Dan & Marty from Chapterhouse Dune to be machines ancient machines from the prequels when they were clearly implied to be Facedancers suggests this. If the great threat to humanity that Paul & Leto foresaw were the thinking machines, Leto was powerful enough to simply find & destroy them (as those who survived Leto's targeted persecution like the Mentats did so because Leto wished for them to adapt rather than utterly perish). No, the trap at the end seemed like a far less tangible foe in Frank Herbert's own books.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

The threat were the thinking machines because Siona shared the prophetic vision of the tyrant when she was tested in the desert. However, that reconection of Daniel and Marty made me so angry. I will ignore Omnius. Erasmus had a decent ending in the prequels. IMO to bring back him again was a complete nonsense. There was no place for him in the sequels, after the scattering and the Honored Matres, and even less if he pretended to be the master of the Face Dancers. There are some characters that have a beginning and an end, and it is absurd to try to force those situations.

[@phosphoros3050]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 I seem to recall that upon death, Leto II states something about not fearing Ix (the world most known for possibly creating thinking machines later), but Tlielax.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I do not remember him saying such a thing, definitely must read his last sentences several times. But what are you trying to suggest, what's exactly your point? I warn you, we Face Dancers are offended to be called biological machines. LOL about the Tleilaxu masters, I have always found it quite funny that they considered Leto II the ultimate prophet of God, because their relations with the emperor were terrible, if not for the gholas of Duncan Idaho.

[@johnmccarron7066]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 I believe it was because Leto II was such a complete and utter deviation from humanity. His virtual immortality and invincibility was as massive a shift in normal human biology as you could get, something the Tleilaxu strove for. It's one of the reasons I believe Face Dancers (and by extension, the Tleilaxu) were the ultimate villains of the final book. Of the many themes of the Golden Path, one was revitalizing humanity. In a way (to Leto II), the Tleilaxu represented a perversion of humanity. They surpassed human limitations, but did by becoming less human. It would be like going in the opposite direction from the thinking machines: rather than entrusting themselves to thinking machines, humanity would entrust themselves to biological monstrosities. Present company excluded, of course.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I see your point and would share it but, once again, Siona's test in the desert seems to me like a discordant element to your reasoning. PS: that was a good try, but I'm afraid I'm just another grain of sand out there on the dunes, (yeah, that's a cliche, but a very suitable one), so what you say about mine, you say about me, excluding the masters, of course. Feel free to say whatever you want about them :P. You would be a successful diplomat lol. Anyway as far as I know, indeed Leto gives the same warning several times during the plot in God emperor.

[@joeydell]

I enjoyed all of them a bunch! Honestly most of the hate is coming from people who haven't even read them lol

[@chrisphillips5682]

I actually enjoyed Paul of Dune. But you have to read all the house books to enjoy it.

[@filmandpage1138]

I have Paul of Dune, but never got around to reading it. I will some day.

[@phoenixdown5181]

I'm very split on the Brian & Kevin books. I personally like a lot of their ideas. I find their stories genuinely interesting, but the prose is soooooo sophomoric. Everything reads like a first draft. The characters feel wooden. The dialogue is so awkward. But I can't help but keep reading them. They're comfort food. Not as cerebral as Frank's books, but maybe they don't need to be.

[@filmandpage1138]

I find them entertaining most of the time. However they can get boring. I kind of think of them as an alternate canon.

[@jameslynch5716]

I have read all of them all and enjoyed them.

[@filmandpage1138]

That's awesome, any favorites?

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Have you read Songs of Muad'Dib?

[@tgiacin435]

Honestly I’ve enjoyed all the books. And listening to destination: void I’ve recognized similarities in the writing styles. And they have a pretty solid continuity between the Frank Herbert books and the BH/KJA books

[@tgiacin435]

The only thing I didn’t like is how they made Daniel and Marty Omnious and Erasmus, but I guess it kinda fits, but maybe they might change that if they make it that far movie wise

[@colinrasmussen9365]

Right when you said spoiler alert for book 8 i started coughing real loud and ran to my computer to fast forward lol.

[@duderdude4831]

"LALALALALALALALA" *mutes volume*

[@HeadHunterSix]

I'm nearly finished with God Emperor and even I expected that the threat Leto II prepared for, is the return of the Machines. It even seems more feasible than some cabal of Face Dancers.

[@filmandpage1138]

I hope your enjoying the books.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I really prefer Frank's version. (Fighting my corner). But Siona's experience in the desert raised doubts, at least in my case. I guess you know better than anyone right now.

[@johnmccarron7066]

It's highly unlikely it would have been the machines, though, as the general theme of the original books was not that the machines themselves were enslaving men, but men were using machines to enslave men. It was essentially a subtle comment on religious fanaticism, and a set up for why the universe of Dune was the way that it was (less machines forcing people to take the place of machines). I really wanted to see what Frank Herbert was going to do for that last book, because I guarantee it was very different than what we see now.

[@JohnGoetzGaming]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 what was her experience in the dessert?

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I mean, when Leto II tested her and she was allowed to know something about Kralizec, so she dreamed of machines looking for human rebelds to exterminate them.

[@NimrodTargaryen]

Thanks for the explanation to so many books

[@filmandpage1138]

I'm glad I could help.

[@bradyjacobs2348]

Is the dune Enciclopidea kinda the seventh dune novel

[@filmandpage1138]

My understanding is that it was put together by Dune fans, and isn't officially recognized as canon. However the back story it gives feels a lot closer to what Frank Herbert might have intended than the books by Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson.

[@RealHogweed]

@@filmandpage1138 Frank actually liked and approved the encyclopaedia, with the caveat that he could diverge from it in the books he would write after. The “notes” he left are like Joseph Smith golden tablets, they don’t exist.

[@spiritualarchitect4276]

This is how I rank the 7 that I have read: 1 Dune 2 The Butlerian Jihad 3 House Atreides 4 Dune Messiah (drags but mythical) 5 House Harkonnen 6 Children of Dune (boring) 7 House Corrino (too busy) #7 - is typical of the new ones in that there is so much going on it is hard to keep track of where you are at. I wish these books had chapters that told you what world you were on.

[@dancegregorydance6933]

Ranking 2 Brian Herbert books in your top 5 is controversial

[@spiritualarchitect4276]

@@dancegregorydance6933 Just being honest.

[@Aaron067]

@@dancegregorydance6933 Not reading the original series and instead meandering off to read the Brain Herbert books are even more controversial, I would go so far as to say it is heretical lol

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

Children of Dune being boring?

[@CT-Irodion]

The only Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson books that have any slight interest to me are Hunters Of Dune and Sandworms Of Dune. At the same time I don't want to fork over money on books that will leave me disappointed. The rest of their books just feel like unnecessary supplementary material albeit there are very few ideas I appreciate. But perhaps I'm just being lazy by jumping into the final books of the main series stared by Frank Herbert without reading any prequels.

[@filmandpage1138]

The machine crusade books are pretty good. I thought those ones were their best.

[@bloozism]

I bought the 3 house prequels. I don’t plan on buying any more of Brian’s books after this.

[@filmandpage1138]

They are hit and miss Brian’s books.

[@dpbreviews1513]

If you read Butlerian Jihad do you definitely need to follow it up with the other two in the trilogy or can it a stand alone? Thanks

[@filmandpage1138]

No it is designed to be followed up by the other two books in the trilogy.

[@dpbreviews1513]

@@filmandpage1138 Thanks. Really like your Dune videos. Keep them coming!

[@ShaiHulud1966]

What is the son but an extension of the father? Frank Herbert, Dune (Dune Chronicles, #1)

[@Ammeeeeeeer]

Brian Herbert is less of an extension and more of a parasite, really.

[@tgiacin435]

@@Ammeeeeeeer from your personal view. Remember, Brian grew up while Frank was writing these books, and he wanted to continue his father’s work. It might not be 1to1 with how Frank wrote the dune books, but the writing is similar to destination: void.

[@Ammeeeeeeer]

​@@tgiacin435 Yes, its my personal view, sorry if it offends the cult of Brian Herbert. My apologies for insulting your saint, have a nice day.

[@tgiacin435]

@@Ammeeeeeeer so because I offer a viewpoint, you think I worship him as a saint? Very telling.

[@magnenoalex2]

@@Ammeeeeeeer you know you seem more like thr culture since your so negative if it isn't like your savior Frank. Could've just said nice opinion man.

[@RDZX1089]

Brian Herbert vs Christopher Tolkien

[@phosphoros3050]

Christopher Tolkien has actually had experts come in to look at & confirm that he has his father's notes. Apparently the only other person who's officially seen Frank Herbert's "notes" aside from Brian Herbert is Kevin Anderson. Not to mention that there's an author who collaborated with Frank Herbert in the past who recalled that in mail communication, Frank suggested a pre-Butlerian Jihad that was a bit different than the one that was presented in the prequel books.

[@filmandpage1138]

@@phosphoros3050 I'd love to see the original notes.

[@Ammeeeeeeer]

Both are inferior sons living off the fame of their fathers :) What was that line by Saruman, "lesser son of greater sires" yup that perfectly describes Chrissy Tolkien and Brian "Milking the Zombie Cash Cow" Herbert. At least Chris Tolkien showed the actual notes by JRR Tolkien, as someone already pointed out.

[@thefilmeffect6089]

@@filmandpage1138 We will never see the original notes because they either don't exist or are so few that there isn't much of a point. Brian Herbert used the "notes" to sell more books and coast on his father's reputation.

[@countOfHenneberg]

@@Ammeeeeeeer I'm biased but I'd rather not compare Christopher Tolkien and Brian Herbert as equals. Christopher never set out to be an author but took on the herculean task of sorting out his father's vast collection of notes and publishing completed works that add greatly to the Middle Earth knowledge base. I'd like to think that Frank Herbert must have left a great many notes when writing his 6 Dune books and it would have been interesting to see Brian do a similar job with them. I do but speculate, as I doubt we'll ever know.

[@Jayvetron]

The Brian Herbert books are fanfic.

[@carenome1]

How do you feel about the three new books? The mentats and the sisterhood and the last (I cats remember the content)?

[@carenome1]

Sisterhood of Dune (2011) Mentats of Dune (2014) Navigators of Dune (2016) The Duke of Caladan (2020) The Lady of Caladan (2021) The Heir of Caladan (2022)

[@filmandpage1138]

I haven’t read them yet, but I will some day.

[@SgtWicket]

Imo the Brian Herbert books felt like Dune fan fiction and I have never been able to shake that impression. Some of them have the vibe of straight sci fi schlock.

[@filmandpage1138]

Yeah that is a good way of putting it.

[@bouncingbluesoul5270]

There was a whole spoken word album which comprises of short stories set on Arrakis.

[@filmandpage1138]

Oh really? that would be cool to hear.

[@Dude_on_a_Map]

I’ve said this many times and I’ll say it here…. There is no way that Frank didn’t tell his son the end of his story. Most writers know the end before they even get there. I accept the ending as canon I loved those last 2 books.

[@smithsb]

I think Sandworms is okay as well. I'm fine with Brian's book, my opinion on them is that they should have stopped at Sandworms as well. You're Dune Encyclopedia is in better condition than mine and I paid an arm and a leg, Canadian currency am I right?

[@filmandpage1138]

Yes Canadian currency. I just lucked out and someone gave a copy to Value Village. So I scooped it up. I didn't realize what a rare thing it was.

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

Making the final enemy facedancers makes no sense. Everything pointed to the robots returning to kill all the humans. Ignore all the gatekeepers and read Brian's books and you'll realize they are most likely based on his Dad's notes.

[@hvitekristesdod]

The Houses trilogy was okay. But they should have stopped there. They went mad with power

[@filmandpage1138]

Doesn't seem like they are going to slow down anytime soon.

[@hvitekristesdod]

@@filmandpage1138 😥

[@ronmosely8355]

There is no Aristocracy , in Fiction Writing of any sort , and the children of most classic ; Spy, Sci Fi , Horror, Mystery, novelists respect that! They enjoy what hereditary royalties , they are from their parents , book, but then go on to create a life for themselves ! Herbert's kids remind me of the Bible story of the sons of Solomon!!!!

[@tgiacin435]

How I see it, Brian grew up, and got to see the impact these books had on people, and he wanted to continue the story. Unfortunately people only see someone just trying to ride on the fame of his father, which I kinda doubt

[@corbindalis]

The books lack any subtlety and stray so far from the original series. Very amateur writing. Considering Anderson has been writing for a while, that to me is pretty pathetic. The Sandworms of Dune is one of the worst books I've ever read. All the characters have become one dimensional

[@filmandpage1138]

LOL! I don't think I've met a fan of Anderson's writing ever. I think of them as an alternate canon apart from the Frank's original books.

[@gehinkun]

So what Brian Herbert did was retcon a bad terminator ripoff plot into his fathers work? Sounds... "amazing".

[@filmandpage1138]

Yup. That's pretty accurate.

[@quietrobert2010]

I like these books.

[@11555Rambler]

For the love of god have an opinion on something

[@pocker91]

did you just spoil something in the last book (5:20) ? I just got to press pause. Please make a clear spoiler warning and allow couple of seconds for people to REACT :D

[@filmandpage1138]

Oops! I guess I did. I'll remember to put spoiler warnings in these kinds of videos in the future. Sorry about that.

[@Jezza_One]

Exactly that was almost a disaster for me.

[@crockagator919]

The house trilogy, my favorite books of all time.

[@filmandpage1138]

I had fun reading them. It was just the middle book I found drag. My favorites of the the prequels were the Butlerian Jihad books.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

So, you know Ticia Cenva well, I had not hated a fictional character so much for years. It would be great to find her in a Parallel Duneverse, I would enjoy qicking her in her face and torturing her without explanations. Absolutely personal, I want to hear her scream and that's all! LOL by the way I enjoyed Reading the prequels too.

[@filmandpage1138]

Ah yes, she isn't a well liked character.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

What a polite answer, after my rage expression xD. Incredible as it may seem, there are some fans who love her. My favorite books in the prequels are The battle of Corrin and House Harkonnen. With The battle of Corrin they created a truly ominous and anguished atmosphere. I suffered a lot Reading it, and That's why I enjoyed it so much.

[@Dadutta]

you've got to be kidding me.

[@HistoryMovieCritic]

The words on the covers “New York Times best seller” says it all. Clearly many Dune fans enjoy these books. I think the people who disrespect them are in the minority. I think they are excellent. Very well researched and based directly on Frank Herbert’s extensive computer files on floppy disks, not just a few scattered notes. They contain fascinating revelations and explain the backstory to the Dune universe better than any other prequels I have ever read. I can’t praise them enough. They are just as good as the originals and just as important.

[@filmandpage1138]

I’ve read them up to sand worms of Dune. I’m glad that you’ve had fun reading them. My favourite was the trilogy about the Butlerian Jihad.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

The most tragic and saddest character in the Duneverse was Duncan Idaho, or maybe Alia and the god emperor. But no doubt, the biggest loser and suck was Uxtal. What a fucking miserable guy! He was full of shit during his life, and he died completely full of crap too. He really shocked the hell out of me. I think Brian and Anderson did a great job creating such a bastard anti-hero. If I was in his place, I would have shot or stabbed myself the first time and Fuck everything.

[@filmandpage1138]

Was that the guy that got eaten by the Sligs?

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Yes he was. During my Reading I often wondered what his death would be like, assumed he was going to die, but I did not expected such a tragicomic ending. I was like what the hell just happened there? For almost three minutes LOL. Anyway it was the perfect ending for such a character. I missed him in Sandworms RIP.

[@filmandpage1138]

@@zannaifacedancer5915 I would say it was slow and painful. LOL I don't think those Sligs ate anything fast.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

Yeah I think so, it was slow, painful and quite bloody. Considering the accumulation of misfortunes in his life, I expected that he would die slowly and painfully. But I thought the Honored Matres would rough him up until death, or we Face Dancers would do it LOL. Anyway that "filthy low-caste farmer" Gaxhar was a minor character but suddenly got his Little but awesome and shocking revenge. My poor Uxtal, as a Tleilaxu master he was super mean, but deep inside I actually felt sorry for him.

[@balecalduin1993]

I think I won't make a lot of friends with this comment, but here goes: Frank Herbert's latest books were BORING! I like Dune to no end, but the sequels to the original one got worse and worse as time goes. The Messiah was ok, but things get dragged, long, boring, nothing happens... couldn't even finish the last one! I've read Dune countless times. I've read the prequels over and over again because they are entertaining. But I have only read Frank Herbert's sequels once and won't go back to them because I don't like getting bored. And what most upset fans forget about books is that they are supposed to be entertaining, especially SF books. So I don't care if they are cannon. You do you, think what you will

[@filmandpage1138]

Everyone has their tastes, and if you only like the first Dune book. That's totally cool. I do find the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books entertaining with some more than others. It doesn't make you any less of a Dune fan if you only like the first book. I didn't care for God Emperor of Dune when I read it. I found it the worst one in the series, and boring. I plan to reread it at some point to see if my perception the book changes.

[@bobjoneswof]

@@filmandpage1138 God emperor of dune I'm currently reading and I find it extremely interesting so far.

[@bloozism]

@@bobjoneswof I’m on heretics. So far the books get better for me as I go farther into the series.

[@spiritualarchitect4276]

I agree, Dune had action, but Messiah dragged, while Children was actually boring. Later, when God and the others came out, I did not even bother buying them. The Butlerian Jihad and House Atreides are more fun than M&C.

[@willmungas8964]

I’ll read through messiah because I think it has the most fitting tragic ending for Paul. There’s something mystical and poetic to me about him disappearing blind into the desert to die like a true Fremen. Its dense, but it’s short and it builds well. Everything after gets really psychedelic, but it’s fascinating to read through at least once, especially with what happens to Duncan. (I kind of go into full review mode below sorry) Overall, I dislike Children for bringing Paul back, buts it’s also a decent ending. It’s the start of the books really dragging for me. I find that Leto II himself was a fascinating idea but a kind of rambling boring character. He was hard to sympathize with because he is explicitly not really a person, but a collective of memories. For that reason I found God Emperor mostly boring. I also don’t like that the books get loose with power scaling at times, with some characters randomly just becoming superheroes, like Leto being able to leap massive heights and lift the doors to the palace after bonding with sand worms, or Miles Teg becoming the flash. It just takes me out of what is otherwise a mostly subtle and realistic physical world. As for the other books: Heretics is the most like the original, and of the latter books I like it the most; it ends on a major cliff hanger. Chapterhouse expands on Heretics pretty well and has a fascinating ending, but it’s also really long and drags with the same kind of philosophical drabble as God Emperor. Haven’t read the Brian Herbert books, and I don’t really intend to. I’m watching these videos to get a sense of what they’re like.

[@massacolonel5950]

Hunters and Sandworms having the Robot Omnius from the Legends of Dune trilogy as the main villain was fucking bullshit. Why would Frank Herbert make the main villain at the end of the Dune Saga a character whom he never mentioned anywhere, anytime throughout his life nor in any of his books? That was a blatant con job they did in order to attempt to persuade us to buy their other 6 prequel books in order to know what is going on in their cheap ass excuse for Dune 7 which they called Hunters and Sandworms of Dune. Hopefully Brian finds some integrity and tells us how it really ended the way his father intended. I'll bet if there are notes from Frank, then it would be something way better than what we got. I would not be surprised if it's Face Dancers using machines, but not being ruled by them. If Duncan becomes a Superhuman Cyborg, then I imagine it would be his way of becoming like another Immortal "God Emperor" that is to say a Superhuman being who ensures the continuation of the Golden Path. But Like I said, even if that is the case, I'm sure Frank would have done it without putting his readers in a position in which we have to buy 6 more books to learn what's going on in Dune 7. Furthermore, having Feyd Rautha Harkonnen and Margot Fenring's daughter get killed off so uselessly was an insult to us fans and Frank by having the bloodline of Feyd wiped out, which the Bene Gesserit said was important for humanity. I would not be surprised if a descendant of his had a key role for Dune 7, but was deleted by Brian and Kevin. I was also pissed off about what happened to Gurney Halleck's sister because that was clearly a means of retconning what the Dune Encyclopedia said about what had happened to her. I took that as an act of disrespect to Doctor Willis E. McNelly, who had Frank's authorization to write and publish that book, something that Brian and Keven put a stop to by ordering it's cancellation of print, probably because if it was put back in print, then I'll bet that it would outsell everything they wrote put together, unless they get off their asses and write Dune 7 the way Frank intended which would be the only thing that would match or surpass the Dune Encyclopedia. Cancelling the Dune Encyclopedia is in my mind another act of disrespect to Frank, the fans and McNelly because like I said, Frank gave permission to have it published. Edit By the way, Humans at peace with the machines contradicts Leto's vision of an AI Hunter-Seeker killing all humans.