More Irish than the Irish themselves

[@RoseKB22]

The new microphone is a huge improvement! This is a fascinating subject, and I look forward to more videos from you!

[@ramblingkern]

@@RoseKB22 thank you

[@Orie1]

For many years the qualification to be Irish was live on Ireland island and be Roman Catholic. That's the way many people understand it. But, like every other part of the world, there are many different factors and ancestry so that it's left up to people themselves. You can be whatever you say you want to be but the important thing is to let others do the same.

[@patbrougham9929]

Diaspera person here. I have been blessed to be reunited with family in Kilkenny Co. These wonderful people tell me we are Norman! This is a complicated old world. Thanks for the interesting talk.

[@ramblingkern]

@@patbrougham9929 brilliant stuff you are lucky to be able to do reunite with family like that.

[@MontyFinnell]

I love that you're wrapped in green,white,and orange. I love your martial spirit. And I love your intillectual narratives.

[@ramblingkern]

@@MontyFinnell haha I hadn't even noticed. Thank you for the kind words and support.

[@gerrycastlemanwarde5933]

The phrase is over used and only applies to certain Norman families and certain locations. If you look at the so called "14 tribes of Galway" who were predominantly Anglo Norman and who founded the City of Galway in the 13cent. They married among themselves and excluded native Irish from the walled city up until the mid 17 Cent. They spoke a French / Norman dialect and later an old English dialect and never spoke the native Irish language as far as I can see. They wrote laws to exclude the Irish from the city and laws preventing the sale of gunpowder and weapons to the natives. They also forbid the purchase of cattle from the native Irish. They never adopted Irish dress and were always loyal to the English Crown from what I can see. I would say that most of the Anglo Norman towns and cities excluded the Irish in a similar manner. The reason I know this is because I researched my wife's DeLynche/ Lynch ancestors from the city of Galway and the family tree has no native Irish names going back centuries. The minor branches (including my wife's branch) only started marrying native Irish families in the mid 19 Cent. The irony of all ironies is Galway City is now seen as the centre of all Irish culture including dance, language and the performing arts.

[@ramblingkern]

@gerrycastlemanwarde5933 like all terms it is not a catch all phrase there are plenty of norman families in Ireland who still own tracts of land and many of the names still kicking about. Galway like many parts of Ireland has its divisions such as the claddagh. One of the longest holding parts of Irish traditional dress and language in the area. But like you say many stayed loyal to their roots and lengths were taking on numerous occasions to remove those who were not.

[@gerrycastlemanwarde5933]

@@ramblingkern I read that republicans circa 1916 referred to Galway city as a shoneen town. (One who prefers English attitudes, customs or lifestyle to Irish ones) Its amazing how attitudes have changed over the last 100 years. Its still a good place to visit!😀 Loved you video on the Irish long bow!

[@ramblingkern]

@gerrycastlemanwarde5933 appreciate the support mate.

[@MacToirdealbhaigh]

It's in the name Galway, Gall is foreigner in Irish, same a Donegal, Fort of the foreigners.

[@gerrycastlemanwarde5933]

@@MacToirdealbhaigh Interesting! Thanks!

[@bullnterrier4829]

Interesting. Something similar happened in New France with the French settlers and the indigenous people. They were trying to "Frenchify the natives" but the opposite was happening way to much for those in power. lol

[@ramblingkern]

@@bullnterrier4829 that's a understatement haha

[@LesNouvelle-Angleterreur]

The three races of New France were the Pure Laine (pure French), Metis (Mixed), and the Peux de rouge (natives). The French, historically, never had an issue with interbreeding or having their culture adopt their traditions. In my profile photo, I'm portraying the traditional "Les Voyageur", or a fur trappers in English. They relied HEAVILY on the Natives and Metis to become the wildmen we know them as today- adopting the Arrow sash and the moccasins as well as some records show many preferred the long tunic and leg wraps to actual pants. Today the French-Canadians in East Canada and New England (North East USA) relatively remain between 54%-98% genetically French still. My brothers ancestry went from 94% to 96% French.

[@americansupremacist5118]

Very few French women made the voyage to New France early on resulting in large Indigenous influence on the French settler population

[@The_Gallowglass]

I've had loads of Irish get mad at me for being from Chicago, but my grandfathers told me we were and would always be Irish. If you had told them they weren't Irish, you'd get broken teeth. The Irish that move here get it. Droves of them have been coming here in the last 3-4 years.

[@ramblingkern]

@@The_Gallowglass it can always be a sensitive topic on all sides but it's good to be proud of where you are from and hold those traditions that are passed down in high regard.

[@thescoobymike]

Nothing wrong with being Irish-American. Just good for us to be knowledgeable and really in tune with the culture. It’s the ignorant ones that make us look bad.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

I used to look down on the diaspora, but I look back on that attitude with embarrassment. Many of the diaspora work harder to preserve Irish culture than those living here, and it's a fallacy to accuse someone of being less Irish for not living here: The Irish are a people, not a place. You could move every Irish person to Patagonia and we would still be Irish.

[@Sonny-m1f]

Sad to hear so many are fleeing the motherland. What do the poor who can't flea do? I don't know if I'd associate myself with men who abandon their homeland instead of fighting for it. Erin Go Bragh ☘️

[@Skiamakhos]

Likewise if you were from an Irish family and you lived in Birmingham UK in the 70s, you'd get a lot of crap for it. When folks are trying to beat you up for their racist projection on you that since you're Irish, you're somehow connected with the pub bombings, and we're all to blame somehow, then one of two things happens: either you end up despising yourself and your Irishness or you embrace it & fight back, & it becomes a big part of your identity as a person. I'm too Irish for the English, and I've so many hoops to jump through to prove my Irishness among the Irish.

[@lynnquillen4813]

According to my family’s history, my surname Garland actually was Gernon in Normandy (Norsemen heritage), bound with the Monfichets and accompanied William the Conqueror. They followed Strongbow into Ireland. Some retained the surname Gernon, some renamed Garland. My gr grandparents Garland and Kyle emigrated to Rhode Island, US, in the late 19th century and welcomed new Irish immigrants to their home.

[@ramblingkern]

@@lynnquillen4813 interesting you find that happens a lot. Many Irish names were changed into English and you even see common Irish surnames in the USA that are not present in Ireland as they would change their names when they landed.

[@panatypical]

Quite an intriguing topic.

[@conlethberry1236]

Great video Nathan, love the history videos, but all your videos are great.

[@ramblingkern]

@@conlethberry1236 always genuinely appreciate your support mate.

[@surfingowl9646]

Thanks for the video brother ❤

[@ramblingkern]

@@surfingowl9646 thank you

[@simonkeegan5580]

It is a very interesting paradox. A 'clansman' of mine who was born in Australia but whose family came from Longford was chatting on an Irish Facebook board and he made the comment that he considered himself Irish. An Irish-born person said he was not, and that the Dublin-born Chinese family in their local takeaway was more Irish than him. Because they were born and raised in Ireland whereas he was born and raised in Australia. My Aussie friend, like me has a Y Chromosome haplogroup of R-BY198 from which one can determine our paternal (surname) line arrived in Ireland around 3000 years ago. So what is more significant, the 2850 years his ancestors were in Ireland or the last 150 in Oz? Of course the Chinese takeaway workers are more "Irish" in the sense of the day to day, they know what bus to catch into town etc, but is there something to be said for "Irish blood"? Personally I was born in Liverpool and we are a unique people. They boo the English national anthem at Anfield and you see banners "Scouse not English" and this is largely because of the Irish population. In the mid 19th century there were more Irish people in Liverpool than in Limerick, Drogheda or Athlone. I enjoyed the video anyway it would be good to chat some day

[@ramblingkern]

@@simonkeegan5580 it's a complicated topic and one that can set people off very easily as it's mostly semantics. Being Irish and having Irish ancestry are very loaded terms and like many things have been adopted by some unsavoury groups so I always find the topic a bit of a minefield to discuss. From a historical and mythological perspective everyone in Ireland arrived here all just at different points so be it thousands of years or twenty years so it's a tricky conversation.

[@simonkeegan5580]

​@@ramblingkernwell this is why it was a clever move starting your video by talking about the Norman invasion and the plantations. The hard-of-thinking won't have made it past that

[@ramblingkern]

@simonkeegan5580 haha exactly

[@fergalpoole2372]

Good stuff , keep it up

[@ramblingkern]

@@fergalpoole2372 thank you mate.

[@ramblingkern]

@@fergalpoole2372 thank you mate.

[@Skiamakhos]

It's like they say about religion: there's nobody so fanatical as a convert.

[@ramblingkern]

@@Skiamakhos well said

[@remaguire]

I was born and raised in the NYC area to an Irish immigrant mother and father. I definitely grew up in an Irish household culturally. My parents taught my siblings and me definite Irish values. I didn't realize that until I saw what the lives of my friends were like. Very different. I'm also very close to many of my relatives in Ireland, visiting there as often as I can and keeping in touch. Having said that, I would never dream of ever saying to any of them that I am more Irish than they are. Actually, for me there is no more comfortable place to be than Ireland. I feel like I'm home. Having said that , though, it just baffles me how anyone could act that way. I would love it if you could give some examples of this, where anyone from the diaspora presents themselves as "more Irish than the Irish". It would be fascinating to see that. Even if it's just to avoid such types in the future!

[@ramblingkern]

@@remaguire there are countless examples that have been memed to death on the internet. The classic ones are telling Irish people about x,y or z thing that they don't actually know about and acting with utmost authority on it. I have personally seen this come from information passed down and getting mixed up. Then the person involved doubling down when corrected.

[@leenewsom7517]

I am happy to have come upon your channel. I have a question along these lines. I live in the US but both my grandfathers were born and raised in Ireland, one near Cavan Town and the other near Coleraine, so the modern counties Cavan and Londonderry/Derry, historically Ulster. I am an archaeologist and so have always been very interested in the history. I spend my summers at my great aunt's cottage and visit old medieval church ruins and archaeo sites around especially Lough Foyle. I have noted that the red hand of Ulster is a symbol with pre-English/plantation roots and was then too one of resistance against the English and company, considering the native chieftains, clans, etc. It remains a widespread symbol of Nthn Ireland, but in more or less usurped or adopted form? Is this perhaps similar to what you say of the Normans lords, their "Irishness"?

[@ramblingkern]

@@leenewsom7517 the north is very complex but to give you an idea of that the symbol itself alone is wildly disputed it was even disputed in the 1600s when the O'Neils started to adopt it as their standard. It became attached to them who were eventually the major clan in the north and the flag became attached to Ulster. The flag then changes and is highly disputed and honestly has so much history I couldn't do it justice to even begin talking about it all.

[@leenewsom7517]

@ Thanks so much -- very interesting all around.

[@dflt5th]

I couldn't imagine moving to Ireland & claiming I was more Irish than the native Irish. That's some arrogance. I mean, I definitely Irish culture, & music, etc. I couldn't imagine going to Ireland with any attitude other than "I'm here to learn."

[@ramblingkern]

@@dflt5th i would like to think for many its not coming from a bad place they believe they know more or are excited to be part of the tribe so to speak but when people double down and are not willing to learn it creates some issues.

[@dflt5th]

@ramblingkern yea. Though it reminds me a bit of The Last Samurai where, after only a few months immersion, Tom Cruise is able to out-samurai all the Samurai that have been doing it their entire lives. Everything needs to be quick for them, but assimilating takes time.

[@ramblingkern]

@dflt5th if you want an extreme example you can look up the Irish tartan thread that appeared on Reddit in 2017 I still chuckle about it from time to time. I think you are right though many returning diaspora save and go on a trip expecting to be welcomed home and immediately assimilate but we are more people of Irish ancestry than we do on the island so it's very common for us and nothing new.

[@russellhogan2708]

Very interesting video. Thanks. Just FYI, I think you mean “emulate” instead of “emanate”, unless I misunderstood. Thanks again.

[@Cardulionax]

I was always quite interested in this phrase ever since I had first heard it as a kid, and I spent many years looking through any information trying to pin it down. I think it's important to note how in it's original use it was a condemnation of those it had been applied to. Though it is probably now impossible to track down the exact origins of the phrase one of the most accepted theories, among the small niche of people crazy enough to bother with something like this, is that the original use of the phrase or something with the same meaning at least, was used against the Norman clan "Barrett" who after moving into Ireland married into a great deal of prominent Gaelic families and in short order started joining in in various local "rebellions" and pseudo rebellions against the English, for which they were given the moniker the "Black Barretts"; one of the stronger pieces of evidence in support of the Barrett origin theory is that for many centuries it was accepted that there were two distinct Barrett clans in Ireland one of which had it's origin among the Normans and the other which was a native Irish clan, this seeming "fact" has only relatively recently been proven to be simply false and that both Barrett clans are of Norman origin. Given this it does seem to support the argument that even if the Barretts are not the origin of this phrase they did, as a clan, "go native.

[@ramblingkern]

What now?

[@sojnab1]

Mighty!

[@IrishFuryan]

If anyone can be Irish, then no one is Irish. If the signifier broadens it's definition to be everyone, then it's result has no definition.

[@cohltonandrews9063]

Is fearr gaeilge bríste agus beárla clíste.

[@niallkelly2990]

Irish is a culture not a race or ethnicity,so the only Irish in Ireland are the speakers of the language

[@HimWitDaHair98]

Id love if you could convey this to the xenophobic "Ireland for the Irish" crowd. It would be near impossible for a great replacement in Ireland, as the replacements take up so much of the Irish culture "sure where would they lave it?"

[@ramblingkern]

@@HimWitDaHair98 Ireland has been forcefully invaded numerous times even our oldest known stories involved people coming here and invading. We are blessed that our country is at a point where people actually want to come here.

[@forasfeasa]

Nice video. Just in relation to Spenser, you have to be careful with him. In the 1590s Hugh O'Neill was desperately trying to get Old English support for his Catholic Confederacy. However, (with the partial exception of Munster), the Old English refused because they saw themselves as English and second the idea of fighting against the Gaelic Irish in defense of the (English) kingdom of Ireland was an integral part of their identity. There was no way most of the Old English of the Pale, or the march lords would allow themselves to be led by a Gaelic lord. As can be seen in the documentation they were clear that they were English and that they rejected O'Neill's correct assertion that they were being persecuted for their religion. Spenser is representative of the growing English belief that the Old English had degenerated and were Irish not English. The English government tended to belief that all Catholics in Ireland were traitors and about to rebel. Elizabeth was lucky that this was not the case. (Hiram Morgan and Ruth Canning have done good work on this. Ruth has a book and some articles on the subject.). Sorry for writing so much!

[@ramblingkern]

@@forasfeasa not at all it's all great information that someone else might come across and you are correct I did mention his work is controversial as his and many others used their work to justify the horrible acts carried out in Ireland as a way to say the Irish and every on the island were less than and should be dealt with as such.

[@forasfeasa]

@@ramblingkern Controversial is a bit of an understatement about some of his views! :-)

[@steadyeddie639]

Henry VII 1171, under authority of the pope Adrian IV, Ring any bells...?

[@timfromwimbledon5871]

Henry VII lived 1457-1509. Adrian IV died in 1159. Why do you mention 1171 when neither of them were alive?

[@cohltonandrews9063]

Gaelú or Gaelicisation

[@thomasclarke2880]

From what I researched the Normans learned the language and integrated. By the time of the Pale shit isn't well documented or buried maybe by decidedly more historically favourable events. Completely ignorant to the whole thing my band wrote a song called The Pale as a challenge. Bad Boat. If you look it up hope you dig it.

[@ramblingkern]

@@thomasclarke2880 awesome I'll have a listen thank you for letting me know mate.

[@johnmackenreillytag]

Sár-fhíseán! It’s a testament to the strength of Irish culture that it’s appealed to and incorporated so many new groups over the last millennium. Looking at modern Gaelscoileanna and GAA clubs it’s great to see that tradition still going strong. 💪

[@ramblingkern]

@@johnmackenreillytag it has spread around the world and Irish culture and can be seen in some very far fling places.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

I wouldn't celebrate too hard. The GAA are being forcibly diversified in order to weaken any argument that the Irish are a distinct people, rather than a set of dances and games.

[@johnmackenreillytag]

@@peterhoulihan9766 Did you watch the video Pete? If the Fitzgeralds can become Irish, why can’t any modern groups who’ve recently arrived here do the same? Bíodh ciall agat maith an fear.

[@daleknation]

Pep up, buddy. Love the material, but you start off sounding like you're giving a eulogy. This vid got you a sub though, keep at it.

[@ramblingkern]

@@daleknation haha cheers mate

[@longshotkdb]

This is why Erin is the emerald jewel at the end of the rainbow this is why Eire is never, 'conquered ' in the Ancient world or ever will be conquered. The very nature of Eire is to invite, and even welcome with her culture* and therefore assimilation is inevitable. Eire is a Goddess, a mythical and romantic living thing with a history that cannot be erased. A mythology as old as any. She's indomitable. ∆

[@ramblingkern]

@@longshotkdb well said

[@peterhoulihan9766]

We didn't invite the planters though, they conquered us. Then we fought back until we won.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Yeah i`m just a plastic paddy mate

[@ramblingkern]

@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf and proud 😁

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

@@ramblingkern For sure

[@ChristianHausegger]

👍

[@stevenovetsky3274]

💙💛

[@KyIeMcCIeIIan]

I'm Gaelic. I, too, have Hibernian heritage. I'm descended from the first king of Scotland, the first king of Athens, and Hercules- a Hebrew man in the Tribe of Dan named "Samson". Gaels are in the Tribe of Dan. The Pillars of Hercules reference the pillars Samson pulled down to destroy the Temple of Dagon. The native Celtic Irish are of Canaanite heritage, meaning the Irish are Semitic speaking Hamites. Fun fact- Semites have "The Holy Line" because Shem's wife was in the Tribe of Cain. We are descended from the first murderer on the female side prior to Noah's Deluge, which I suspect is what caused the Great Genetic Bottleneck. Some ignorant people still speculate it's why the Irish and Gaels have red hair; everyone remembers the garbage theories about red hair being the Mark of Cain. Red hair used to be the heritage of all Western Asians from the Middle East, even King David was a redhead. I'm a dirty blond but my father and his father had red hair. Great Grandpa's was salt and pepper, though.

[@chief_tobias_]

What internet psychosis does to a mf.

[@peterhoulihan9766]

There were some medieval scholars who attempted to write a biblical origin for the Irish (and many other European groups) but these claimed lineages have been proven false. We are not descended from any caananites, we are indo-european and before that we were ancient-north-eurasian. We are arguably more closely related to the chinese and native americans than the semites. The deluge is a myth which predates the foundation of jewish culture. The jews adopted it from the Babylonians and the Babylonians adopted it from the Sumerians. The origin of the myth lies in the inundation of the Arabian gulf and comes long long after the great genetic bottleneck.

[@KyIeMcCIeIIan]

@@peterhoulihan9766 There's all kinds of bogus material regarding Irish history to the point that it exceeds the most imaginative lies, with Goidel Glas even being seen by Moses, the lie that Scythia existed at the same time as the building of the Tower of Babel, all kinds of dumb stuff. I'm pretty sure the actual original native Celtic Irish were of Canaanite stock and later Gaels colonized Ulster and the Hebrides. Gaels have Israeli heritage and Celts do not. Gaels are commonly believed to be the purest of Celts, but it's not true. We are descended from Scythians, the Tribe of Hercules.

[@cohltonandrews9063]

A fool, plain and simple.

[@KyIeMcCIeIIan]

@@cohltonandrews9063 The Tribe of Dan, AKA The Pirate Jews, became the royal houses of Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, England, etc etc. All of those royal lines came from Scythians claiming to be descended from Hercules. We killed the kings of all the other royal clans to create Scotland and Sweden. Ingjald killed 6 kings by burning them to death then he killed a few more kings to make Sweden. MacAlpin killed the Pictish king and nobles at the Red Wedding to create Scotland. The Norman line that conquered England? Rollo was of the Danish line. He, too, was a descendant of Hercules. At one point all of Northern Europe including Britain and Ireland were ruled by royals in the Tribe of Dan. I love my Hibernian heritage.

[@JamesCunningham-l8l]

Born in a soul from were we did not know breathed in the air when the blood wet my first hair ohh how i leant to love to live first learnt to put my feet on the ground the soil between my toes skys came down to touch the mountains spread out with the creatures of a land the green was the brightest a human eye can see taken by force they tryed to be my rulers. But iam bold so try to keep it but the hunger came on end to a boat looking back the boat nearly sank with tears ohh wear my ireland now but its just a bed time story to tell my children to help them sleep better in this new land.

[@PatFoley-km6pc]

There must have been a "diversity equity and inclusion" officer back in mediaeval Ireland.. it's a wonder the government hasn't reinstated it for the new colonisers

[@kylemenos]

It's already in our system. Just look at the new civics course and the point requirement for college between men and women foreign and not. Were now discriminating against being traditionally Irish and also being white.