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There must be more to 'Old School' gaming than endless retreads of #DnD, and more to retrocloning than Basic, and exploitative self-promoters like Fox. Even if we just limit to games over 40 years old we can see games tackling a lot of the same design issues we do today.
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"See... I can get you what you want, I can. I can get you anything, you just have to talk to me, you have to trust me. You can trust me, 'cause I'm your priest, I'm your shrink... I am your main connection to the switchboard of the soul. I'm the magic man... Santa Claus of the subconscious. You say it, you think it, you can have it."
- Lenny Nero, Strange Days

[@jameswight6259]

Bushido got a mention!!! Despite the utterly unuser friendly rule books, it’s totally worth it if you want the full feudal Japanese experience. Alternatively, a better bet, if you can find it, could be Sengoku. It was originally meant to be a new and greatly improved edition of Bushido, but due to copyright issues, never happened, so they just created a whole new game. I’ve only ever had a flip through it and seems like it’s kept all that made Bushido great (see the gushing White Dwarf review of Bushido) while using a rule set that yes, is still complex, which satisfied that 80s craving for realism you mentioned (hence why so many of us soon turned our backs on D&D), but is presented in a way you can easily get your head round. As you say, there used to be so much more out there. I remember ads in White Dwarf in the 80s (before it was all about Warhammer) for all manner of weird and wonderful games - Gangbusters, Gamma World, Paranoia, Toon, etc. and of course, Runequest and Traveller. D&D was like a can of baked beans in the cupboard - always nice to have there if you fancied it, great if you just wanted something quick and easy, but really just a once in a while dependable fall back.

[@BanjoSick]

You are so right about plausibility!!! That is what I miss mist on post 80’s rpgs!

[@darthboothyreviews]

I have owned some very random RPGS based on films like Army Of Darkness, Men In Black and Ghostbusters. I got them for the novelty value and never played them so sold them!

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

Last time I checked there were well over 1000 OSR Retroclones of D&D, even 4E has some retroclones. But other games that are not D&D, not so much. I'd love to see some Heroes Unlimited/Palladium OSR love. There are so many small games from the 80's-90's that have vanished and deserve a retroclone or some type of reprint/revisit. Offhand. Marrow Project, Fringworthy, Tinkers Damn, Guardians, Crusaders, the Hercules and Xena RPG, Gamma World, Gang Busters, Top Secret, and of course DALLES THE ROLE PLAYING GAME

[@Henchman34]

Morrow Project did get a newer edition a couple years ago. And Mutant Future is a homage to Gamma World

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@Henchman34 cool, thanks but what about Dalles the RPG

[@Henchman34]

@@TheOGGMsAdventures Sometimes dead is better.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@Henchman34 in some cases, there are plenty of dead games Id love to have a copy of again

[@AaronthePedantic]

Great perspective here. 😁

[@trioofone8911]

Hilarious. I wonder how many people recognize the "religious tract from the 80s" reference. Lol

[@captainpazuzu]

This is a neverending process when it comes to game design. I think the reality is that most of the game systems "work" or at least playable. It isn't so much the system that attracts people to TTRPGs as the gaming experience itself. You can retread every system infinitely but there will never be a "perfect" game. It's all about the flavor and the experience. It doesn't matter how good or playable they make DnD (1-6). There will always be people looking for something different. I hadn't given much thought to it but you're right. There are loads of largely overlooked themes and settings. It doesn't all need to be Sword and Sorcery. Hmmmm....

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

Cepheus Engine is a retroclone of one of the editions of Traveller. There is an rpg called Mutants in the Now that's a retro-modern imagining of TMNT and Other Strangeness.

[@Dracopol]

That video effect is strange. It creates scratches in the image in any direction, which is not how a film reel in a movie projector behaves (scratches will be almost perfectly up-and-down). It looks not like Grim is in an old movie, but more like he's in front of a campfire with sparks flying this way and that.

[@PostmortemVideo]

That one's meant to be general damage.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

Damnn I need to learn how to make my Chanel look like Jim. RIFTS was HUGE for a while like people were not even talking about D&D Same with GURPS

[@darthboothyreviews]

Dragon Warriors springs to mind like the campaign you ran that I played in, the old TSR Marvel RPG, Advanced Fighting Fantasy too

[@liverpoolirish208]

DW was the bomb!

[@Dracopol]

Advanced Fighting Fantasy has a SF equivalent called Stellar Adventures. It throws in old artwork from the books, but has an organization problem where gear and other lists are not in alphabetical order.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

There are a few retroclones of TSR Marvel on drivethrurpg.

[@Torque2100]

I absolutely agree. One of my favorite OSR games is Warlock! and that owes more to Dragon Warriors than any edition of DnD.

[@SageMasterRPG]

Instead of calling it OSR , maybe it should be called 'Retro Game Renaissance"

[@howardkingston7901]

Flashing Blades, Privateer's and Gentlemen,Space Opera,MERC,RuneQuest and we mustn't forget Delta Force had some good times with that 'bundle'

[@Auticusx]

What do you know, my first games were the Lone Wolf game books and M.E.R.P too heh.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

I have been arguing for years now that the OSR includes more than just derivatives of D&D. There are retro-clones of Gangbusters, Boot Hill, and others. There are modern editions of Traveller, Gurps, Villains & Vigilantes, Twilight 2000, etc etc. If you use a definition of OSR to include Revival, then playing older editions of any TTRPG complies with that use of the term “revival”. If you use a definition of OSR to include Role-Playing, then some more modern RPGs still claim to have that old school feel with them (Castles & Crusades, 2004-2022). So yea, I agree let’s expand the definition of OSR. Old School Renaissance, Revival, Role-Playing and not just D&D based.

[@trioofone8911]

There is a fame called the Lion and Dragon by RPGPundit, that apparently makes an attempt at an rpg that tries to use a certain "historical realism"

[@bluesage3]

MERP and Rolemaster!!!!!

[@Dracopol]

There has been a very healthy retrocloning of Traveller. People wonder why some obsessed people are going to the older games to base their games on. Well that's not necessarily that creators think the old editions are better, but simply because there are no legal troubles in doing so compared to copying a current edition. If a game ever released a Standard Reference Document to facilitate the making of 3rd-party supplements, people can turn around and make an entire game. Game rules can't be copyrighted, only the particular terms and dressing of a game. Cepheus Engine is a derivation of Traveller Mongoose 1st-edition. In that edition there were already significant differences from Classic Traveller (combat rounds are six seconds, armor does not change your chances to be hit but reduces damage after you are hit, ranges are not in fixed bands but each weapon type has a different effective range and fractions or multiples of that range give bonuses or penalties respectively). From Cepheus Engine a lot of new games in new genres were developed: Sword of Cepheus (fantasy), Hostile (ALIENS-type action and horror SF), Empire of Time (Time Travel), Zaibatsu (cyberpunk in a future Japan), Modern War (modern or near-future military). There is even a one-of-a-kind "Russian Dolls" set of SF RPGs, each one smaller than the next, written by Olan Gomer-Joel: Cepheus Deluxe, Cepheus Light, Cepheus Faster-Than-Light, Cepheus Quantum (2 pages!), the last of which has broadened out a bit into the multi-page Quantum Starfarer!

[@ex-voto]

I have the MegaTraveller box on my shelf which I am dying to dive into again. Im not enthused by the ugly mongoose edition & T5 seems overly complex. & since Grim mentioned it wallowing in 70's sci-fi, of course Free-league Alien does that too - lets embrace it!

[@gfy2979]

Lots of local tt gamers locally have still never heard of OSR

[@BanjoSick]

What Merp/Rolemaster are awesome!! Switched to them after a year of AD&D, because AD&D felt so unreal and gamish.

[@weirdguy564]

Palladium Books was our game of choice in school. It got a bit bloated towards the end with Rifts, but it was a great game anyway. I don't like games that use Armor Class that never changes, and hit points that does. That is upside down. As you get more experienced (levels) you should be better at hitting your opponent, and better at not being hit, but the damage you do and can take stays the same. So a fight between a pair of level-1's who then later fight when level 32 would be about the same odds of success. Yet, a fight between a 32 vs a 1, then the 1 gets defeated handily. However, that appears as more of a meat grinder in D&D style rules. So, I don't play those rules.

[@liberalhyena9760]

I didn’t know there had been a Dallas RPG, and am still wondering why. Does the grassy knoll feature?

[@josephskiles]

Pretty sure it's based off of the 80's TV show Dallas, so your probably playing as oil tycoons, having affairs behind your wife's back, and backstabbing both rival competition and your own family

[@liberalhyena9760]

That was my initial assumption but it sounds too much like real life to make a worthwhile RPG. But then people, including my parents, watched in apparent fascination fictional characters doing all that so it must have some appeal. I’m not aware off-hand of other soap operas getting the RPG treatment but maybe it’s one of those veins waiting to be mined. My allusion to the only other thing Dallas seems to be known for - outside Texas at any rate - came from the idea that investigating real life conspiracy theories would seem a more promising theme. No doubt it’s been done but no-one’s told me because if they did they’d have to kill me.

[@josephskiles]

@@liberalhyena9760 I agree it seems like a very odd choice but it was an extremely popular show back then. I remember it a little just because it came on after the dukes of Hazzard when I was a kid ( I think that's right anyhow, it's been awhile). Intrigue is always a popular subject so I wouldn't doubt there are other examples of soap rpgs, every other genre has it's game it seems

[@danmachin6911]

The new War Stories? For WW2 war TTRPG?

[@PostmortemVideo]

WWII games tend to inject weirdness.

[@danmachin6911]

Completely agree. Which is why it is good to see that War Stories is straight WW2. Though I’m not sure of the mechanics

[@BillAllanWorld]

Can a game with "newer" style rules-light mechanics, but with a more "realistic" vibe of gritty survival (where death actually happens) be considered OSR? Does a OSR game need to be based on OD&D, AD&D, or BECMI? I feel like Castles & Crusades, Tunnels & Trolls, and Lamentations are all just spin-offs of older D&D mechanics (which I do not particularly like).

[@Henchman34]

I had a conversation with a buddy about the lack of 3rd party support for Warlock! He mentioned maybe there's no 3rd party game license. Are all these other games open to be worked on? D&D has the OGL that lets so much work be done with it.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Most games aren't, but a lot of small press games are. This one isn't so far as I can tell.

[@josephskiles]

So now I'm kinda interested how you got your start in rpgs. Was it like a friend from school? Just something you heard about and self investigated or what?

[@nonya9120]

Geezer here... We can agree to disagree. Sure there are better mechanics than ad&d. If we go waaaayyyyyyyyy back. Chainmail and the first little d&d book. They were not awesome as a rules set. They were beyond awesome for this reason. They encouraged homebrew and doing what worked. Encouraged us to think beyond the box. The rules set had a straight up disclaimer, drop what doesn't work. That is lacking in today's world of big money, big companies and professional game design. Gaming on.

[@magonus195]

At the end of the day, while a delightful novelty, I find OSR games boring. And that is because most barely cross the threshold of "game", and are more what I would call Calvinball, a system with so much loosey-goosey wiggle room that there is no reliable expectation of the experience. If there was a scale of TTRPG design that slides from _Board Game_ to _Improv Theatre,_ then the OSR is decidedly on the Improv Theatre side. It's been fun to explore, personally, but none of my players are interested beyond a handful of supplements. OSR guys have forgotten, or willfully miss, that game mastery is actually a kind of fun. And yes, I've seen enough STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA derivative d20 games to last me a lifetime.

[@calvanoni5443]

I expected Calvinball to be better! 😜

[@ex-voto]

I think a key attraction of OSR is that things like 5E restrict too much, by providing rules that encourage using class abilities. It can become a paint-by-numbers exercise; bonus action hide, roll for stealth, sneak attack, repeat. People spend a lot of time looking at their sheet for abilities to activate rather than come up with creative ideas. Somewhere in between there's probably an ideal hybrid.

[@liverpoolirish208]

You didn't mention Top Secret or the spy genre. Nor, I think, Boot Hill and cowboys. Both make for interesting settings. I agree that hard SF games don't exist any more. The disappointment of 2300AD taking a hard right into transhumanist fantasy and eschewing realism is palpable. Indeed, the current author has used the trite "it's SF, so who cares about realism" argument. I think the current version shares a lot with XXVc, which was many things, but not hard SF.

[@PostmortemVideo]

It was in my list but I didn't have much to say on it, I did mention Boot Hill.

[@liverpoolirish208]

@@PostmortemVideo Thanks, I couldn't remember if you did or not.

[@MarsAnonymous]

Well, technically there have been a new version of a MechWarrior RPG (Destiny) released in 2020, so there's that.

[@GGLumberjack]

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main gripe with 5e is that it's become 'too political' which seems like a bit of a red flag. This is a popular sentiment held by gatekeepey ttrpg players and DMs who are uncomfortable with the hobby becoming more inclusive to a wider audience. If its not too much trouble, could you clarify what you meant by too political?

[@PostmortemVideo]

The hobby was always inclusive. I don't think it has become more inclusive, but rather less. It's a strange irony that the people accused of being gatekeepers are (mostly) trying to retain the old openness. My largest problems with 5e are more to do with aesthetic, storytelling and corporate decision-making, but it does cross over. Quickly as I can then. When I criticise something for being 'political' I am not saying political themes, stories or plots are bad. I am criticising when something crosses the line into becoming propaganda. When it's artless, blunt, or empty corporate box ticking. I am in several minority categories, I don't want to be patronised or tokenised, and this is what we tend to get (to wild applause). If you know comics, think of old X-Men versus current X-Men. The old X-Men comics used mutants as an allegory for civil rights and racial issues, and for outsiders as a whole. This was artistic, accessible and good storytelling. These days they tend to be on the nose about whatever issue and don't use mutation/powers allegorically. I prioritise quality of story, artistic goals, worldbuilding and other related issues above what I regard as patronising and insulting aspects of 'Captain Planeting' everything. Games, and the hobby as a whole, suffer for it. The attempts at historical revisionism just add insult to injury.

[@GGLumberjack]

@@PostmortemVideo I appreciate you taking time to respond in such depth. I would agree that the style of writing for adventures and settings have gotten worse in quality, but also recognize that some of the content included in old adventures can be pretty seriously dated, and updates to modernize them shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater of corporate woke-washing. I can appreciate and sympathize the position of the OG TTRPG player, as I am a huge fan of the Dark Sun setting and the classic sort of Conan or Tolkien inspired worlds. I disagree that D&D has become less inclusive; just look at the makeup of a modern party vs one from the birth of the hobby, you'll find a lot more diversity today. I think the real problem is the insincere approach of 'expanding the tent' just for the sake of growing sales in a tokenizing way. I love the example of X-Men as a study of this phenomenon, as it fits really well.

[@PostmortemVideo]

@@GGLumberjack I thought you meant diversity in real-world analogues, not in game species/classes. Safety tools, political gatekeeping and undermining of GM agency at the table have all made things less inclusive. They provide reasons to exclude people, or for people to self-exclude.

[@GGLumberjack]

@@PostmortemVideo it's your right to hold that opinion, but I am of the opinion that if you're in the tiny minority of players harping on safety tools and accountability then I'm happy to weed you out of my table.

[@GGLumberjack]

@@PostmortemVideo Not every game table is meant for every player, and that's okay. I'm sure there are plenty of tables for people who hold those beliefs, but acting like you're somehow being oppressed because other tables want to communicate and ensure that everyone is having fun seems like a weird position to me.

[@Lepidoptera666]

i agree with your premise, but not your surmise. dnd is not the best is obviously wrong since the osr is in fact just people selling their houserules for old versions of dnd. how many old games have done what dnd is doing now? 💩 on its former playerbase. that might explain why osr is so filled with dnd-a-likes. also people wont try other games is the very reason dnd is flooded with modern agenda crap. i dont think the osr will stop trying to sell its home rules for dnd until 2 things happen. 1. an rpg must make an easier way for fans to participate in creating for it than dnd has. 2. something has to come along to topple medieval fantasy genre in general. so long as other games seem hard or complicated to participate in the creation of then the odds are dnd or d20 style games made from a wotc dnd system, will be the majority of what you see.

[@PostmortemVideo]

Best selling =/= best. First =/= best.

[@Lepidoptera666]

@@PostmortemVideo financially it does, and osr isnt about creation, its about profits.