LDS Church: A Period Of UnLearning? [Mormonism Live 211]

[@ElizabethTucker-w1i]

I was the YW President in a ward in N Florida. During a stake conference, the youth were corralled together so one of the Stake Presidency could meet with them. He told them that no matter what, you follow your leaders. If they tell you to jump off a cliff, you obey! I raised my hand and said, don’t you mean that we should follow our personal inspiration? He got upset with me, and told me I was wrong. He continued to state that we should ALWAYS follow our leaders, and if they were wrong, that will be on them, but we will be rewarded for our obedience in following. When we separated and went back to our YW room, I told the girls that what he said was NOT correct. They had the right to personal revelation, and should absolutely NEVER follow ANYONE blindly! I was released soon after.

[@JDPrimeFit]

Well done

[@tquist61]

My son was married in the temple last year. I mentioned that it was now allowable to get married civilly first, which would enable me to attend. He didn't know about this, and they went ahead and got married in the temple first, with a ring ceremony afterwards. Changing policy is one thing, getting members on board is another... That said, when I was married in the temple in 1984, neither of our parents were able to attend. It seemed like I got some payback.

[@lisagrace6471]

I'm sorry. As a former faithful, born and raised LDS member, I can't imagine. It is true- policy doesn't automatically change beliefs and social perception of commitment and value.

[@JamesEarlSkaggs]

This is one of the best episodes you guys have done in a while..... Excllent!

[@Sarahwithanh444]

When I was mormon, my husband and I chose to get married civilly first, due to there being so few of our extended families who would be able to attend the temple. We were “temple worthy” (that term is super cringy), but this was a choice we made, and we waited 12 months to attend the temple to be sealed. The amount of judgement we received from members was astounding, for the choice we made. They obviously thought we’d “messed up”, even though we hadn’t. I think by this time my shelf had started cracking in some big ways, so I really didn’t care what other members thought.

[@snivelinj7612]

My wife and I did the same thing, and I didn't give a shit what other people thought. You shouldn't either. Don't let people in your family or ward or neighborhood brow beat you into doing anything you don't want to do. Example: if you get a calling in your ward, don't listen to the directive "you don't ever say no to a calling". If you don't want it don't accept. In an interview with a member of the Stake Presidency, I was asked what I wear to bed at night. He didn't need to know something that personal, and I told him so !

[@carolyearsley]

You may be interested in learning where the term "worthy" originated. Smith and his inner circle of friends called themselves the "worthies", to set themselves apart as better than the everyday rank and file members, due to their special secret knowledge, and their European royal ancestry.

[@Geoplanetjane]

Congratulations, Nathan, for your awakening.

[@amygreen758]

Did Bednar just say that he sits on the stand during Conference and laughs at people? He is so abusive.

[@erintucker934]

RFM is adorbs in the holiday scarf. I hope we see the superhero blanket again this winter. Thanks guys!

[@thelastgoonie6555]

The Ongoing Restoration sure seems to know a lot less about things these days. You'd think the knowledge and accuracy would be increasing. Instead, platitudes and vagueries occupy the spaces left from all the vacated Truth Claims.

[@iamjustsaying1]

One of the callers brought up the situation of a divorced woman having to remain sealed to her ex, who has been cheating on her. I am in that situation; and when I was still a TBM, this was a very scary concept that I'd be forced to spend eternity with my ex and his affair partner.

[@ModernAnasazi]

My 2nd husband was accused of molesting his grandchildren 2 months into our marriage. He ended up in jail, was excommunicated & I divorced him. Afterwards, I was told by church leaders that even though my ex was no longer a member I still 'belonged' to him. If he was rebaptized, "all blessings being restored" meant his sealing to me, whether I wanted it or not. I addressed with church leaders that this stand violates women's agency and treats them like a piece of property, but to no avail.

[@iamjustsaying1]

@ModernAnasazi Yes! Exactly this. And this adds additional unnecessary anxiety to an already stressful situation. You are stressed about your entire eternity being hellish, no matter how "worthy" you are personally, according to the church leaders.

[@ajadamsv9208]

1:00:29 In Brazil the church had no official authority to marry a couple only the State could authorize. In 1987 I attended the wedding of a former companion and he and his wife went to be sealed the following day. The bride wore a strapless dress because she hadn’t been endowed. The rules were obviously different in the US.

[@gazelam1973]

At approx the 2:10:00 when you guys are guessing what the next big change might be. I'll give my 2 cents. I think that Young Women will be granted the privilege to pass the Sacrament emblems alongside the Young Men. There is some historical presidence. I believe during the late 1910s during the end of WW1 and during the Spanish Flu the LDS church allowed YW to pass the Sacrament for a brief time.

[@ChrisS-dt3vq]

Back in early 60's the handbook stated anyone could prepare the sacrament but only priesthood could bless. I don't remember what it said about passing it though. That way I could help the boy fill the water trays.

[@gazelam1973]

@ChrisS-dt3vq Agreed. The D&C only says that Priest's and Elders have the responsibility to "administer" the Sacrament. So the "preparation" beforehand and "passing" after the Sacrament Prayer could be performed by anyone. It kinda is already happening. The whole ward passes the trays around in a packed chapel anyway.

[@countkolob]

My first time hearing/seeing Nathan. Awesome interview.

[@aredesuyo]

On the garments subject, they even tell you in the temple when the garment is first presented that "it will be a shield and a protection to you against the power of the Destroyer until you have finished your work here on earth." Is that not a thing anymore? If we're expected to take the Tower of Babel story literally, they can hardly blame us for not knowing when not to take other stuff literally.

[@Geoplanetjane]

Replay crew here. RFM, red and black becomes you quite nicely.

[@RuthMLB]

Great job! I couldn’t watch it all live but I loved the discussion! I agree with everything said!

[@MormonDiscussion]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@cohort29]

The church of the 90s is gone.

[@JohnDoe-yh3oh]

The LDS church historical framework is gone, they just havent accepted reality yet

[@strangeclouds7]

Nathan seems like a stand up guy. Loved his story on mormon stories. Keep doing the good work

[@preacher1138]

Is Nathan RFM’s son?

[@strangeclouds7]

@preacher1138 No he's one of the other guys in the video

[@Thebishopsinterview]

@@preacher1138no, I was just playing

[@davidchristensen-qg2ut]

The LDS church claims "plain and precious things" were removed on purpose from the Bible. Now in real time right before our eyes they are removing plain and precious things from their own teachings and their temple ceremony.

[@99blackbirds]

90% of my active Mormon firends and family still belive Homosexuality is a choice. So the LDS leaders have found out but they do not tell or teach the members this.

[@daisybee1439]

What an amazing show!! Thanks!!😀😀😀

[@MormonDiscussion]

Our pleasure!

[@rjreilly007]

I have been in the spirit world and can say I know my Father lives and that I called on his son Jesus aname and he Saved me from a big mistake of over dosing on drugs, God knows it happened so how am I supposed to deny it God forbid! I was young. Never felt more loved and forgiven! A peace that surpasses all understanding just like the Bible says! I believe in miracles and I pray that for us all until we come to a perfect knowledge of the truth and I love it ♥️

[@rtmclerk1]

My 1924 of the B OF M doesn't have Moroni at the end, but has "translated by Josheph Smith,"

[@lisagrace6471]

Never heard this one. You should put it up on a blog or post with a pic!

[@MormonMyths1830]

The research Spackman has primarily been pursuing is the YEC vs. Evolution, so expect changes along those lines. That's not the only research he's done but its a significant talking point for him.

[@sleepycalico]

Well, I don't think finally taking an official stand on that would shock people. I think the huge majority of church members would think things along the lines of, Duh. Also, Spackman said it's about something uncovered in old documents.

[@thelastgoonie6555]

​​@@sleepycalico McLellan journals..?

[@Geoplanetjane]

Please note that the school where the most recent fatal shooting took place is specifically an organ of a strictly fundamentalist church. A church that specifically does not teach evolution.

[@JeffDayPoppy]

FIVE covenants? There used to be nine or ten per person. 1- Law of Obedience (of Eve to Adam, of Adam to Elohim, of Sisters to Husbands, or of Brethren to Adam/God, accordingly) 2- Law of Sacrifice, 3- To Never Reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. 4- Law of the Gospel (including the charge), 5- To Never Reveal the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. 6- Law of Chastity. 7- To Never Reveal First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. 8- Law of Consecration. 9- Law of Vengeance. 10- Under the Same Covenant and Obligation of Secrecy as with the others, but no penalty is mentioned. If I understand correctly, they just recently removed three of them, leaving only five in place? Maybe I am misinformed. I would also like to note that at no time ever do you make any covenant regarding wearing the garment, or how or when to wear the garment, yet that is nearly the only "covenant" everyone phantom-remembers and talks about.

[@chandralaframboise963]

“The VISIONS and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth..we’ll sing and we’ll shout with the armies of heaven…” I guess according to our “prophets”, not anymore

[@Qiseeker]

TBM’s like to say the “past is a foreign country “ and we can’t understand the decisions or thought processes of those earlier church leaders. I am of a similar age as you gentlemen and feel that we have lived in this so called “foreign country” and it is so easily pointed out that the only cohesive doctrine is about control and manipulation and brand protection.

[@pianomanchristopher]

Was the diagnosis EOH (Early Onset Heresy)?

[@bj.bruner]

"You must unlearn what you have learned." - Master Yoda

[@carolmcmullin7579]

Where is the February 2003 talk found?

[@DrPsychofraculator]

Another excellent episode!

[@JamesF.TuckerJr.]

Much of the chatter dates back to apostle Russell M. Nelson’s pre-presidential piece titled “Divine Love” in 2003. “While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional,” he states. “The word does not appear in the scriptures.”

[@lisagrace6471]

😢 that makes me sick and so sad

[@RobinSteward-ud5en]

Nathan is an awesome dude😎

[@aredesuyo]

They can never admit that polygamy was wrong, because that would require them to repudiate D&C 132, which the whole temple sealing scheme is based on.

[@benjamingardea4511]

Free agency in the pre-existence doesn’t make a lot of sense. How can we have agency without knowing good from evil? Supposedly Adam and Eve had to fall so they and we could learn good from evil - at least that’s I was always taught and taught others. Yet in whatever limited understanding we had, it was sufficient that 1/3 of God’s supposed children could be condemned for eternity????

[@andmicbro1]

Adam and Eve were on the other side of the veil. That was the reason for the tree of knowledge of God and evil.

[@JDSiga]

Everything with the LDS rises and falls on the truthfulness of Joseph Smith. Did he ever make a bad "prophecy?" YES Many. The foundation crumbles.

[@chandralaframboise963]

Bednar obviously doesn’t understand how we all learn differently. I’m a furious writer when I’m listening to lectures or when I’m in meetings; it helps me process and retain information.

[@Moksha-Raver]

Apologists can continue to lie and the majority of the Saints will continue to believe the lies, because that is what they do.

[@Zeett09]

Sounds like it’s time to Restore the Restoration!

[@JamesEarlSkaggs]

I agree with you Bill. I can only imagine that the conflict and trauma experienced by members who have had children and loved ones in their families who have come out as gay. A definitive acceptance and tolerance of gay members would reduce the emotional trauma of TBM families with loved ones who have come out!. It owuld be a good thing...

[@ozymandias6743]

'Hagoth'... I knew three different Polynesian dudes in Salt Lake City named Hagoth.

[@Searcher-n3r]

The ChatGPT on tithing is very interesting - that is one of the biggest blockers to people going to the temple - not sure how they staff all those temples unless they change something about tithing.....

[@ccardall]

@exmofisherman Yes, I think I'm aware of "most if not all of the issues". To understand the big picture I find it helpful to keep in mind Jacob 5, the allegory of the olive trees. In terms of the options you propose, the allegory suggests to me that God is all-loving, but not all-powerful, in the following sense. The vineyard is not something he has created ex-nihilo. He may have planted the trees, but he did not create the trees---or rather, the seeds from which they grow---from nothing. He is presented with certain organic materials to work with that exist independently of himself and develop beyond his total control. He can tenderly and lovingly and diligently and patiently cultivate the trees so as to bring them to the full fruition of their inherent possibility, but ultimately he cannot dictate the outcomes of particular trees or branches in any kind of absolute or controlling way. And it is to be expected that during the growing and maturing process some bad fruit is manifest along the way.

[@codieO]

THIS IS A HUGE UNLEARNING. I KNOW 2 PEOPLE WHO GOT EXCOMMUNICATED IN THE ESRLY 90s FOR ACCUSING JOSEPH SMITH OF HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH POLYGAMY

[@tawneenielsen4080]

So sad.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

Accusing? Or correctly labeling?

[@RWorley3sl]

I think some people do want it back: the church is divided.

[@carolmcmullin7579]

I am 78 yrs old. We have been given agency to choose for are selves. It was never Free. Right choices have good outcomes where wrong choices bring hurtful things. Where is the Bednar talk found? Like to hear more of his explanation.

[@carolyearsley]

I am your age, and was a 31 year convert. I remember distinctly being taught about free agency in the earlier years of my membership.

[@carolmcmullin7579]

@ yes we were taught we had agency . The agency to choose for ourselves. It was not free agency.

[@jamesormsby1744]

Realise that for many decades LDS members in Australia would have full civil marriage cerimony THEN days / weeks later would get married in the NZ Temple - usually on their 'honeymoonz' 😊... such is LDS culture outside of north america !?

[@Kurt843]

In my copy of the first edition of The Book of Mormon the introduction is not by Moroni. Also, in the first edition in the Joseph Smith Papers, the introduction is not by Moroni. Not sure what copy you have. After a little research, it looks like Joseph Smith added the name Moroni in the 1840 edition.

[@karenl7791]

The book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus is the final and only High Priest.

[@poohandtigger]

I think they will allow the Apostles to retire.

[@RivercrestLodging]

Underrated comment. This actually would help the church stay relevant.

[@jennifermay8710]

There weren't even witnesses when Jesus was baptized.

[@rkn2800]

Bednar is a damn narcissist!

[@Geoplanetjane]

Who is Nathan Hinkley?

[@kennethharrison4847]

Try saying all that to peter,james and john. Or try saying that about moses,adam, or nephi.

[@pamelatd]

I was at BYUI when an ABBA tribute group came. Maybe 2009? Anyway there was quite the uproar because shoulders were visible on stage. 😂

[@claudinealtvater640]

No drums huh, gives some Jodi Hildebrandte vibes.

[@williamwallaceg2627]

Still can’t believe I belonged to this cult and believed such nonsense

[@RebeccaRaven]

Nothing prepares you for deconstruction more than reading stuff the church puts out there. I am nevermo, but it's true for any church, I think. "You think I should believe THAT?????"

[@kathrynclass2915]

1:04:41 Laura Osnes

[@Geoplanetjane]

Unlearning is a big deal. Plus, the whole notion of restoration is bogus and that should be acknowledged. Another avenue which good be pursued is merger with the Community of Christ. Even a discussion undertaken with the denomination might help open up consideration of new ideas.

[@SimonSays314]

Yes RFM the Christian church went away from the magic gifts which is exactly the kind of cultural milieu that set up early church as a restoration of those magical powers

[@jacobhannemann6508]

1:24:55 because it’s corrupt! People are blind to it. Don’t sway too far to not believe in God or at least discount it because of skewed Mormon ideas.

[@wmjas]

I’m so sick of this “is it a choice” bs. Attraction is not a choice; behavior is. It’s not rocket science.

[@susanmaughan968]

We should have what Graham Norton uk show when in the Red chair... if they don't like what they hear then guests can pull a lever to get rid of them. Have a whatch its hilarious 😂

[@ccardall]

Nathan Hinckley is in my stake. I don’t know him personally but I remember him speaking in our ward as a high councilor and singing a song with his acoustic guitar at the pulpit. On one level I can sympathize with Nathan’s current views. I was an unbeliever for about 15 years. On another level though, as someone who has now come back to the Church with a deeper and more mature faith, it breaks my heart to see people obsess about issues of secondary or tertiary importance, often get them wrong, and turn their backs and walk away, at least for now, putting tremendous blessings here and hereafter in jeapordy.

[@MormonDiscussion]

Whether the church is true or not is not a secondary issue? And so many things work against the truth, claims of the church that it would be irrational to continue in belief Such as a secondary conundrum

[@ccardall]

@@MormonDiscussion Whether the Church is the formal vehicle through which God offers to prepare His children for exaltation is indeed a major issue. The assortment of picayune issues you obsess about in videos like this don’t meaningfully address this question.

[@westivus]

I'll address it. It isn't. Exaltation is a lie. Notice how you didn't even mention salvation? You're doctrine teaches Christ's salvation is given to everyone (insert Mormon yawn). We'll make up exaltation so we have something to judge each other by.

[@ccardall]

@@westivus Tell me about your understanding of salvation.

[@exmofisherman]

@@ccardall then lets discuss the "main issue". If you were out for 15 years I assume you know about most if not all of the issues of the church. Is it rational to believe God would establish his kingdom on Earth with all those issues that are brought up in episodes like this? Is God just testing our faith and wanting to watch us squirm? Does he use imperfect people to establish his church who then obfuscate the truth and lie about it (which is a sin by the way, not a "mistake")? What kind of a system is that for such a perfect loving being? Either God is not all powerful and for some reason is unable to establish his truth in a better way, or he's not all loving and was able to set up his church in a better way but was unwilling to do so. Obviously there are other options, like that God doesn't exist at all, but that's a different topic.

[@viviarchfiend]

These AI images are so uncanny

[@lilliancooley967]

What wa restored Bill you ask? A false church Another gospel not Christ s

[@dejablueguitar]

46:20 - Yeah ELECTRIC GUITARS have been put down by the MOMO for a damn long time - ESPECIALLY in the FLDS cult!! (of which I have cured myself - lol!)

[@Rabano_Yodado]

😂 no Bill not all hispanics are mexicans. Typical ... 🤦 21:30

[@kathleennelson6692]

Please ,someone address Oaks, Bednar and all the flagrant condescending spewings.

[@zackc3767]

Megan at the end noted something that's a problem across all sectors of society from politicians to billionaires to religious leaders. The leaders are locked or have locked themselves in an Ivory Tower and haven't talked to regular people for so long that they don't have a clue what's on peoples mind and you can only focus group so much before you have to wade into the masses to earn back authority through action and personal interaction.

[@mariavalenzuela318]

Ok. I love the podcast. But I have to say This the Nathan show? It’s all I hear when he talks …..I…I …….I. He’s a nice gay and has great info but his promotions of himself is a bit to much. I love the info but not the Me me me stuff. Just saying.

[@C.Noble13]

I have a crush on you. Maybe we could end Mormonism before the 2000 -year anniversary. Little season.

[@C.Noble13]

A hundred years on earth is a thousand years in space, the heavens. The sun and moon are heavenly bodies.