Mormons debating Christians are Yahweh's gift to Jews and Atheists

@thoughtfulfaith2020 @TheCounselofTrent
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[@GeoffJRC]

My favourite part about Noah's Ark was when all the carnivores waited for all the prey animals to reproduce before eating anything.

[@bud8168]

You found a hole in the ark story??!!

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

Any christian or mormon that has any capacity for critical thought and analysis will quickly come to the conclusion that taking everything the Bible says literally is idiotic. I am mormon and I know which kind of comment section I am in, so I also assume your next argument will be that people of faith have no brains. While I know many people for which that applies, I also know just as many, if not more, for whom it doesn't. If you want to have a more interesting argument, you could argue about the similarities of the Bible's account of a flood story with contemporary texts and cultures of neighbors. It's a much better and smarter discussion than beating the pathetic strawman that can't talk back that you just built. One of those things requires brain activity, the other is just your own unmitigated self-serving bias at play.

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

Mine is the kangaroos hippity hopping down to Australia without leaving a trace.

[@Adam-mj5hl]

But how do you know manna from heaven wasn’t provided to the carnivores to satiate their hunger until the ark landed?

[@GeoffJRC]

@@bud8168 well it definitely isn't the fact that water droplets didn't have the ability to refract the visible light spectrum until after the flood. 🌈

[@paulschlachter4313]

30:13 Roman Catholic: "Joseph Smith was incredibly supersticious." 😆

[@chuckkv]

It was a debate about who's magic was better.

[@bigbrutal_0179]

Lol. One of the most striking thing i’ve heard in a while (and this debate reminds me of it) is when Sam Harris said the reason most of the latest religious claims are discredited is because they are well documented.

[@chuckkv]

​@@bigbrutal_0179 He's right. But I grew up LDS and only the sanitized version of that well documented history is taught. Most of its members have no idea about it. Jacob knows better though. As an LDS person, I can see plain as day, when Jacob is dodging, exaggerating, and taking advantage of Trent's lack of understanding the nuances. All of that ultimately moot when you have theist on theist action. Neither of them will ultimately address their historicity issues, in any debate of this orientation...

[@HaleStorm49]

@@bigbrutal_0179 Its the same reason Harris has lost much of the credibility he built up over the last few decades.

[@latterdayskeptic]

and why the other's is fake.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

I love this commentary as a LDS!

[@Tank_Evans42]

"Joseph Smith was illiterate" Joseph- "So one day I was reading the Bible, and James 1:5 stuck out to me"

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Definition of illiterate is unable to read OR write. Joseph knew how to basically read but he didn't know how to write. The Book of Mormon had scribes of educated people to write for Joseph because he couldn't.

[@professorchimp1]

Joseph’s brother William Smith: “He was illiterate to some extent is admitted but that he was entirely unlettered is a mistake… he wrote a plain, intelligible hand.”

[@Sayheybrother8]

Am I the I’m the only currently active Latter Day Saint Pine Creek listener on the planet? This is going to be a fascinating listen!!!

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Probably. I grew up in the church but never really believed in any of this supernatural nonsense. Why is it that you believe the stories of the Bible are true?

[@bambie1830]

I’m not active but it does crack me up when evangelicals do “their evidences” argument and I point out that the lds church has that same claim, but more recent and with more witnesses.

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

You are not, I'm ready to enjoy this.

[@Applest2oApples]

Not for long

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Not anymore.

[@professorchimp1]

Latter-day Saint (Mormon) here, you're very knowledgeable, clever, and clearly expose the double standard 31:29 Very good point about talking animals (and a plant) 36:56 "I just had a flashback" 😂 39:40 Jacob has videos on his political philosophy, it's about people *voluntarily* not committing crimes instead of coercion thru violent force. You mentioned California, which isn't representative of the LDS population 44:00 Fun fact, historian Don Bradley (who initially thought polygamy was for hot babes) discovered that Joseph selected pregnant women so he wouldn't have to have coitus with them (medical knowledge of the day advised against intercourse while pregnant) while simultaneously fulfilling his commandment to "raise up seed" 1:07:18 Vast majority of critics agree the witnesses weren't lying 1:07:52 Jerry Grover (geologist, civil engineer, translator) was able to translate the Reformed Egyptian from the "Caractors" document. The dates of events match the Book of Mormon timelines and even astronomical events. He uses all scholarly sources, feel free to critique his papers 1:18:09 He definitely had stones he used with a hat to locate objects, it's disputed whether he used these stones or a device similar to spectacles called the Urim & Thummim which aided in revelation (similar to Israelite breastplate & stones) - which his mother handled - during the translation. If this all sounds magical, it does align remarkably well with ancient Jewish mysticism, including Joseph of Egypt placing a clear stone (tzohar) in a silver cup in order to interpret dreams 1:52:44 Very good point. We have the entire Joseph Smith Papers project examining thousands of sources and people who knew him in different contexts. Great presentation by Don Bradley: "Knowing Brother Joseph: How the Historical Record Demonstrates the Prophet’s Religious Sincerity" 1:59:08 Most Christians I know believe in modern miracles and guardian angels 2:04:05 I have empathy for those with gender dysphoria, but it's been shown to be a mental disorder like anorexia. How do you tell whether your religious conviction is really the Holy Ghost? You can perform an "experiment," as explained by Jesus in John 7:16-17, and D&C 9:8-9, as well as the sermon in Alma 32. People of other faiths *do* have real spiritual witnesses of nature, art, hymns, scripture, demons. Latter-day Saints believe other faith traditions have truth. Read the article “Mormonism and other religions/Spiritual witnesses” I highly recommend watching LDS Truth Claims on KZbin, where Brett McDonald (who went to Law School) examines the evidence for and against Mormonism. Plus Mormonism with the Murph. Also Josh Gehly's book "Witnessing Miracles: Historical Evidence for the Resurrection and Book of Mormon." The evidences mirror each other, such as the empty tomb and empty stone box

[@senorbb2150]

Trent proved Mormonism false, and Jacob proved both Mormonism AND Catholicism false! Well done.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

No. Trent said if Catholicism is true than Mormonism is false. And Jacob said if Mormonism is false, Catholicism would also be false.

[@kelleykennedy872]

I was LDS for 16 years, held priesthood, and even taught Sunday school classes. I left and became an evangelical christian as a result of arguments like Trent’s. 10 years later, I left christianity by applying the same arguments, skepticism, and standards of evidence. I’m amazed that Trent and other people of faith cannot see the irony.

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

You are an honest non cringey atheist and if people are going to be atheists, I'd rather them be like you and Bret Weinstein than the caricature of a human that most atheists online often act like.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

You take that back right now. How dare you compare our candid, earnest, humble, straight shooting Pinecreek Doug To that bloviating Fop.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

Not to mention Doug has actually worked professionally in the hard sciences. They say “those who can’t, teach” Weinstein got laughed out of academia for his crackpot theories so he wasn’t even capable of that.

[@biblicallyskeptic7650]

Very great debate and review by Pinecreek 😂. I miss your atheist side 😅

[@Stoopkid1775]

The evidence of absinthe is not the-- Oh, no,wait, The absinthe of evidence is the-- No that's not right either. Absinthe is edivence of-- Wait, let me start again... If I have asbithince without (hic) edividence, then - Dammit, dropped the bottle! MARTHA, FETCH ME ANOTHER BOTTLE (hic)!

[@ryanfristik5683]

Doug u get better and better with every video. These debates show more and more how ridiculous these beliefs actually are.

[@dancinswords]

My god, this truly was a great video to highlight. With them going back and forth with arguments atheists would make, back at each other

[@dancinswords]

1:50:28 I love this bit. It was Trent's opportunity to show how his version of religion was better, and his best distinguishing feature is a bit of doctrinal minutia, as impactful as bringing up how Catholic churches look compared to Mormon ones

[@Drawn-by-Abundance]

I thoroughly enjoyed your commentary, PineCreek! I appreciate your mind. May your Sabbath be sublime, tomorrow. 🙏🏻🌄🕊️

[@marcvsalius]

Doug you have to look up the detail on the hat thing - it's awesome.

[@senorbb2150]

A peep stone in a white hat. The church possesses that peep stone to this very day.

[@dancinswords]

2:07:30 I'm glad I kept listening, because this part really clarifies some confusion I've had about the way you view the trans issue. I thought it was odd when I saw you use the same hypothetical test for transness as you had used for demonic possession before: getting actors to pretend and then see if the psychologist/priest could tell who was real and who was an actor. That didn't make sense to me. In both cases there is a real phenomenon internal to the person's mind, but in the case of possession it's being attributed to something external. What is the external attribution in the trans case? Gender is internal to the mind, so to be trans is to have an internal experience, which stops at being an internal experience. You would have to be thinking of it as some dualistic, "male/female spirit in a female/male body" kind of thing for your test to make sense. You say it's: "I'm a man even though I was born female. I know this is true because of an internal experience." It's actually: "I feel like a man even though I was born female. I know this is true because I have an internal experience of feeling like a man." The feeling is the totality of it; there's no attribution to, or claim of, something external to the person's mind being real. And because it's just an internal experience, it's undeniable to the person experiencing it, just like the _cogito._ You can't think you're feeling something and be wrong; the thinking you're feeling it _is_ the feeling it. It seems the same as questioning whether someone is really gay, by saying that they only _think_ they're gay because of an internal experience. Your sexual preference _is_ an internal feeling; _feeling_ like you're gay _is_ being gay. If you accept the distinction between sex and gender: _Feeling_ like you're a man (gender) _is_ being a man (gender). And then if your chromosomes (or whatever metrics) show your sex to be the opposite, then you're trans. It's a mismatch between the mental (or brain because I'm not a dualist) and the physical (or the rest of the body because I'm not a dualist). (It's also worth noting that the brain, and thus the mind, is just as "biological" as genitalia and chromosomes, so trying to use "biological" as the qualifier doesn't help, strictly speaking)

[@isidoreaerys8745]

57:10 “it’s probably not more than 3” Christianity is finished. This is worse than Bill Craig’s low bar blunder. No wonder the twitter religion debate bros are apoplectic about this debate.

[@raynelson6575]

You skipped the opening argument where Jacob said Trent would use the same arguments against the Book of Mormon as an atheist would against the Bible. My point is that you nailed it even without hearing it. I happen to believe the Book of Mormon is true, but you are correct when religious groups argue. they use atheist arguments.

[@Nox-mb7iu]

Out of curiosity, what doctrinal differences do we have? I'm a Christian leaning towards Orthodoxy.

[@andrewdurfee3896]

@@Nox-mb7iuI wouldn’t necessarily be able to say since I don’t know much about what orthodox Christians believe. One contention we have with a majority of Christian denominations is that we don’t believe in the trinity. A God without body, parts, or passions. Who is unknowable etc., but the thing is that when I have asked about the trinity I get different definitions so that doesn’t help either. Some definitions are closer or further from what we believe. We believe in the God head. For example we believe that Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings, but are one in purpose. The apostle Jeffrey R. Holland gave a talked “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom Thou Hast Sent” in either 2007 or 2008. Another major contention is that we believe that the canon of scripture is open while a majority of Christian denominations believe the scripture of canon is closed. We believe of course in modern Apostles and prophets while a majority believe that those are no longer needed. Naturally if you believe that the canon of scripture is closed then you’d reject the Book of Mormon or more modern revelation such as the Doctrine and Covenants.

[@tercerocastero]

45:09 the ancient authors were quoting from NT sources they could not have known about. Is Trent actually an atheist? This sounds like someone who does not believe in divine inspiration at all. The message is supposed to be from God right? Can God not quote himself? As Christians would say the Bible does, and is perfect with no contradiction even though written by many people over a long period of time. Did all of them need a written copy of what came before to quote from or say similar things, or was that beyond the Holy Spirit to assist in? This is a fun listen. As an ex-Christian now atheist, hearing the way people come up with to justify their own faith and reject all others is always enlightening.

[@richardhunter132]

you can quite easily be a Christian but still think that Mike Licona's argument is weak. unfortunately, the MFA implies that you can't be a Christian without accepting it, and that it's the best argument for being a Christian. maybe they don't say that explicitly, but I think that's the take home message

[@phillipjackson1517]

Trent literally said that Catholicism must be true because it's produced so many good people. That's just embarrassing and I think even he would admit that, and have to concede that this is a laughably bad argument. He's logically committed himself to believing that if atheists produced so many good people, then atheism must be true. Trent is better than this, so I think he probably just misspoke.

[@shaneemmons9508]

Right, and that’s not to mention that it’s also produced some of the worst people ever. Not sure it gets much worse than systematic cover up and abuse of children.

[@phillipjackson1517]

@@shaneemmons9508 Well, the fact that Catholicism has produced many bad people who've done bad things to kids doesn't mean their core beliefs about Catholicism are false either. The point is just that how many people believe a view, or how many good people a view produces has no logical connection to whether or not it's true. It would have been equally bad for the Mormon to say that Catholicism is false because it's produced so many bad people. There's just no connection between the truth of a view, and how many good or bad people it produces. But yeah, I agree with you that Trent was cherry picking here a little bit by pointing out the good people it's produced and ignoring all of the bad people it's produced.

[@EvanHerlihy]

This is glorious

[@LeahBreHappy]

Do you give tutorials on how to go live on KZbin like you do? I need help

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

I used to Listen to Rush and I remember him talking about the dumbing down of America and that has happened so very much. I used to listen to him all the time in the nineties and early oughts.

[@mikeb6826]

147:55 the Lds church doesn’t have any k-12 schools it runs in the US. Outside of US there are schools.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

This was delightful.

[@punnet2]

It's like a Dumbledore fan debating a Gandalf fan

[@professorchimp1]

Yeah Dumbledore fans get state Executive Orders saying they must be **ext**minated** or driven from the state

[@richardhunter132]

it's interesting to me that the Mormon guy is criticising Christianity as Mormons are Christians, as far as I understand

[@bradleyperry1735]

They are not.

[@richardhunter132]

@@bradleyperry1735 according to them they are

[@professorchimp1]

He's demonstrating and criticizing the *double standard* that non-LDS Christians have by dismissing evidence for LDS. He believes in the Exodus and Resurrection, but makes the case that the evidence for the Book of Mormon and Restoration are greater

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

Oh and remember Rush quit saying people in Minnesota and said Palm Beach where he lived in Florida after that to reference the most stupid people. Did you forget that?

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

Rush had a cat named Ditto.

[@mozzarellamartyrdom7948]

me crying after losing poker is Doug's heaven 1:58:20

[@mikeb6826]

It was a beaver hat

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

I like your ASMR voice

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

7:22 Amen. The great human experiment is to find truth, not necessarily to have truth. The theists must acknowledge this by accepting a transcendent being that is unobtainable. Of course Mormons would disagree with that latter part by accepting the concept of eternal progression.

[@bradleyperry1735]

He is obtainable. He was revealed as the God-man Jesus Christ. This is the centerpoint of all things.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

Aquinas knows frost bolt? Is he a frost mage?

[@pererau]

16:47 "this is a problem for Mormons..." Oh, you mean letting Jacob Hansen try to defend the church? Yeah, big problem. I honestly think (ex Mormon, here, so I have some experience in the matter) that Jacob helped me see my way out of the church as effectively as any "anti" out there. When I realized how he hangs his bigotry and racism on the same Scriptures and God that I believed in, I realized that I must be fooling myself. Unrelated, but if you really want a "fun" experience, try reading the last half of section 132 from the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants and ask yourself, "is it God or Joseph Smith that is the asshole?" Because it is Smith writing in the voice of God, and one of them is definitely an asshole. It's kinda the Kobayashi Maru of Mormonism.

[@kraniodesign4555]

fellow exmormon here and I've often wondered how many people Jacob has helped out of the church due to his awful rhetoric.

[@user-yr9lt7dz8k]

The Iron Law of Woke Projection Anytime a woke person says you support a policy because of x (racism, greed, fear, etc) they are projecting their deepest feelings onto you.

[@user-sd6uh3mu7f]

Pine Creek, you ignore me which is awful

[@senorbb2150]

Jacob comes across as a nice engaging person but his online persona reveals a very ugly self righteous side. Trent has a dark side too, imo.

[@icekills1]

I prefer jacob darker side than trent darker side. Jacob rightteousnes self evident but trent have a sublime arrogance

[@pererau]

​@@icekills1go watch Jacob interviewed on his thoughts on LGBTQ individuals. You'll discover his dark side pretty quickly.