The Mountain Meadows Massacre w/ Barbara Jones Brown | Ep. 1838

[@HeidiInThePurpleBunnyStudio]

I am a fifth generation descendent of John D Lee. I was aware of mountain meadows as a teen as the book was in our house. My dad said it was controversial and the church denies it. This was in the 90s. I appreciate hearing more of the story and I apologize for the things my ancestors have done.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

"If members of the Fancher party had committed the atrocities which the Mormons alleged, then when the Mormons had persuaded them to give up their arms, why didn't the Mormons simply arrest the suspected offenders and try them on the charges?" That's the fact and the logical question that seems to put to rest any notion that the perpetrators really believed that they were justified in carrying out the killings (except to the extent that they may have believed that a leader like Brigham Young, through "revelation" and what not, had, as self-appointed judge and jury, already delivered a verdict). Given the power structure in the territory at the time, they could have even run kangaroo courts against the Fancher party members, if they had been remotely interested in even just pretending to care about due process as commonly understood by the larger society in America at the time.

[@Chaoslived]

You know, there were many more men than John D Lee there that day who were just as guilty, but they continue to villainize the one man that paid the consequence for all the other cowards that ran.

[@Chaoslived]

@@randyjordan5521 And he was the sacrifice for Statehood, bottom line. She says she was allowed to see all the documents, how does she actually know she saw all the documents? Too many contradicting facts and she wants us to follow her down her rosy path of ‘New and Complete Information’. Ridiculous.

[@maryannewilson3305]

You are not responsible for the actions of your ancestors.

[@jessedewell]

I personally sincerely hope that you do not carry even an ounce of this burden. No logical or reasonable person would expect you to bare any responsibility. So that being said I'm going to in the most respectful and loving way not accept your Apology because it is not yours to give nor anyone alive today to expect or accept... I really, really hope you don't carry that burden. It breaks my heart to think that you may carry any level of guilt or shame in your family name.

[@jumperguy9867]

With respect to Brigham Young's role. In 1859, the Army's investigator, a Captain, interviewed two Paiute Indian chiefs when the Army sent him to Mountain Meadows. Both chiefs told him they received letters from Brigham Young to kill the Fancher group. One of the chiefs identified the letter carrier BY NAME. Any letter written after that that was attributed to Young instructing Mormons to let the Fancher party through unmolested is subterfuge to achieve plausible deniability. Young's inaction after the massacre illustrates his culpability just as much. The Fancher Party's possessions were confiscated by various Mormons, as was their money and their surviving children. No effort was made to repatriate possessions to the families of those killed. Seventeen children were kept by the Mormons for TWO years without any attempt to return them to their families. Young made no attempt as Territorial Governor to pursue justice, when he KNEW 120+ settlers were murdered AND that Mormons had taken part. After TWO years, skeletal remains were still strewn all around the massacre site, with virtually NO effort made to offer them a decent burial. It was the Army unit that came in 1859 that buried the majority of the remains and constructed the first monument to them. Young's Mormon had two years to do so and did nothing. John D. Lee was Young's sacrificial lamb and the ONLY Mormon participant (of an estimated 5-7 dozen) ever punished - when he was killed by firing squad in 1877. History can be read by what is absent just as much as by that which is present. Brigham Young's lack of moral action post-massacre points very much to his active participation in directing the massacre just as if there was a letter to Lee or Haight instructing them to kill the Fancher Party. Haight's and others' crocodile tears were THEIR effort to deflect responsibility. And the wholesale reluctance of the Mormon populace to identify others who participated is yet another indicator of Young's role in whitewashing history all the way down to the present as the LDS church continues to deny the real scope of Young's involvement . First, they blamed the Paiutes exclusively. Next they suggested only a few rogue Mormons were involved. When the Army Captain counted remains of 120+ settlers, he could not find a single skull that did not have a bullet hole in it. The Paiutes had almost NO firearms (3-5 at the time of the massacre). This means that Mormons were the ones holding the guns that executed the Fancher settlers. To conclude anything else is to place oneself in poppycock denial.

[@rulistening7777]

I think anyone with a little bit of intuitive ability, can see through the lies and plausible deniability of those who truely hold guilt. The ironic thing is, BY totally discredited the faith that he claimed to uphold. And did it by the authority of that faith. Proving how weak the very foundation of it truly is. IMO.

[@xblakelfoglex]

@jumperguy9867 do you know of a primary source or work that references the primary source(s)? I'd really like to look into this more because I never hear about evidence that Young encouraged this massacre.

[@integralawareness]

One of the best books I've read this year. Should be mandatory reading by every high school student in Utah. Richard and Barbara left no stone unturned and delivered an intellectually honest account of post MMM events.

[@jamesricks]

It’s not faith promoting

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@jamesricks Intellectually honest accounts rarely are.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

​@@jamesricksAnything that CAN be destroyed by the truth SHOULD be.

[@ETBlair]

I’ve read the Will Bagley book.

[@FWWillis]

I read Brooks, Bagley and UtBoH. I wasn't expecting much from Vengeance is Mine, being that Richard Turley's name was on it but I was pleasantly blown away. Excellent research, expertly delivered and I have to add that the audiobook experience truly enhanced the experience. The narrator is stellar and truly brings the subjects to life.

[@DanA.-jo4sg]

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”-Voltaire

[@marysue7165]

Thank you for this great interview. I can't wait to read the book!

[@rulistening7777]

The Clinton, Obama, Biden administration.

[@colleenanderson223]

My husband is a decendant of John D Lee. His family left the church a couple generations ago and my husband always heard it was because Brigham Young executed his great great grandfather. He had no idea why until I looked it up. Neither of us knew of the massacre and we live in a very Mormon area. Sobering.

[@Chaoslived]

You still haven’t heard the whole story, unfortunately. This event was a tragedy but it was not solely on John D Lee. He is the the only one who paid the price though, and sadly that is why his name keeps being dragged around. How about all the other men who did this? Do we know their names? How about the Stake President who gave the order? Why don’t we hear his name constantly associated with this crime? John D Lee paid his debt. No one else did.

[@ginac7235]

I just returned home from a road trip from Arizona to Utah. I took Highway 89A and stopped at Navajo Bridge. There is a gift shop there with a historical timeline about Lee’s Ferry and has John Lee’s photo. It included a tiny blurb that he participated in the MMM. The timeline also included the date of his execution and how his wife tried to continue the ferry but then sold the rights of the ferry to the LDS Church. idk where I’m going with this…but I thought it was interesting. I was surprised it was the same John Lee as Lee’s Ferry.

[@integralawareness]

@@randyjordan5521 Do you know if Lee ever acknowledged that he utterly lied to BY when he reported on the massacre?

[@integralawareness]

@@randyjordan5521 Lee lied extensively to BY when he came to SLC to tell what had transpired. Did you read Turley and Browns book Vengeance is Mine?

[@Kathrynanne9]

@@Chaoslivedit is all in the book

[@r.l.7319]

It is so interesting hearing about the decendants of the perpetrators discovery and feelings! I am from Germany, here most people in my generation assume as the default, that their ancestors were standing on the wrong side of two world wars and many committed horrific crimes. While looking back, we can also understand how they lived in a culture enabling it and that all humans are nuanced. Americans, Mormons or not, often just seem to assume that their ancestors were "good people", not focusing on the indigenous genocide, slavery and other crimes in US history.

[@citizen321654]

Possibly because so many American's ancestors emigrated to America after the 1900's and experienced prejudice and poverty and had nothing to do with the founding families. Your point is well taken, however, about the Mormon descendants of the MMM. You might find it interesting that there is an overwhelming amount of self-loathing among American youth with regards to the US involvement in the wars from Vietnam onward, most of which they weren't even alive for, had no participation with, and even protested to no avail.

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Such great insight-thank you for sharing!

[@peternewman1609]

American liberals are - mostly - painfully aware, and often vocal, about our nation's beyond horrific treatement of Native peoples. black enslaved persons, minorities of all kinds, and folks from lower socio-economic classes. American conservatives on the other hand like to pretend that these stains on our country's conscience never happened, and should not even be acknowledged or spoken of. In many ways, they have a vast amount to learn from Germany's largely unflinching self-awareness of their participation and complicity in war and genocide.

[@samsingley9973]

As a Black man, I get the same sick angry feelings when I think of the massacre and the strange fruit that use to hang from southern trees. The complete extent of the situation has been covered up. Thank you for this book.

[@FuCar-n3c]

Wasn't always southern trees.

[@Brightpath87]

Barbara Brown needs to do a book on the Bear River Massacre and what role the church played in it. Porter Rockwell was a scout for the Army that killed 450 Shoshone.

[@Kurt843]

Expressing regrets is not the same as apologizing

[@OuttaMyMind911]

It feels more like they regret that the truth of the situation is being revealed rather than the tragedy itself.

[@tamragoodrich6067]

The Church has apologized over and over and over for the massacre. John D. Lee was hung because of leading the massacre.

[@tamragoodrich6067]

My dad was always interested in this story, and so I was aware and concerned from teen years.

[@tamragoodrich6067]

The Church had to leave or the members would have all been killed by leaders who were allowed by their superiors to murder and rob and plunder.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

@@tamragoodrich6067 “Apologized over and over”? Are there sources for this? Even a Deseret News article from 2007 that covers Elder Eyring’s statement specifically states in the article that the apology was “long awaited”, meaning nothing had happened till that time: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a long-awaited apology Tuesday for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in southwestern Utah.” And sadly, like the OP comment here stated, “regret” is a different word than “apology”. Also, mentioning John D. Lee might not be as helpful as you think. I would read his Wikipedia article for details, but here’s a quick quote: “He said he had been a vocally reluctant participant and later a scapegoat meant to draw attention away from other Mormon leaders who were also involved. Lee further maintained that Brigham Young had no knowledge of the event until after it happened. However, in the Life and Confessions of John D. Lee he (or an editor) wrote, "I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young." On March 23, 1877, Lee was executed by firing squad at Mountain Meadows on the site of the 1857 massacre. His last words included a reference to Young: "I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young. I do not care who hears it. It is my last word... I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner."

[@billtipton6660]

As a combat Marine of the Vietnam War I relate to PTSD symptoms described by BJB! I am having a difficult time putting this book down. For far too long I have felt drawn to the sacred ground of Mountain Meadows, but have not been able to visit. I plan to visit during spring 2024. Thank you, Barbara!

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Thank you for sharing your experience and for reading the book! After reading it it will make your visit to that hallowed site even more emotional and powerful

[@strangeclouds7]

Barbara is such a great storyteller. Heard of the MMM but never knew the details. Extremely interesting and great podcast. Thank you.

[@shemurphie]

I’m a Southern Utahn whose Pioneer ancestory has a legend that was passed down from my Great Grandmother to Grandfather to me. The story goes that our great great great grandfather must have been somehow involved in the massacre because according to my GGma when her mother was a little girl she heard crying out in the barn. When she checked it out there were a bunch of children inside. I don’t know how it came to be understood that these were kids from the massacre but that’s the legend. I was too young when this story was told to me to ask more questions because I was just so stunned. My Grandfather has since passed and I have no way to get more info about it so it remains a legend. But I’ve been obsessed with this part of our history ever since and cannot wait to listen more and read this book!

[@shemurphie]

⁠​​⁠@barbarajonesbrown I noticed you commented that you have names of who took children in? I didn’t even know they kept track! Since I was so young I can’t know for sure if I listened to my Grandpa’s story perfectly as far as what side this was on, but I come from Angell’s, Wrights, Strattons, and possibly Hartley. If you have any info to help I would be so thrilled. It’s haunted me for so long.

[@l84ad8inmi4]

@@shemurphie In The book 'Vengeance Is Mine The Mountain Meadows Massacre and Its Aftermath' -Richard E. Turley names some of the people who took the children and the horrible shape they were in. Richard E Turley also wrote the 2009 book Massacre at Mountain Meadows The author had so much information he had to write two books. He had spent 15 years in the Mormon church archives.

[@jhudson9411]

I went to the exact site this last weekend. So somber. There were many large placards lining the trail. One talked about the crying children in horrible conditions being brought to a woman right after this incident. The woman said it was the worst thing she'd ever seen. That sign is on the trail. I read it and cried.

[@Brightpath87]

I worked for the Paiute Tribe from 2008-2011. They are still upset to this day that the Church blamed them for the massacre. The church needs to issue an official apology to them. I know when I worked there, the descendants always stopped by to look at the Paiute history records. Also John you need to do an episode on the how the Church treated the Natives in the region. Bear River Massacre (Porter Rockwell was a scout), Circleville Massacre, Kanosh Massacre etc........

[@jimbobdrg3247]

One of the very best podcasts on MMM! Barbara, John, and Rebecca - thank you for the balanced reporting on this significant event in history, and for all of the work and research! Just purchased "Vengence is Mine".

[@alscai]

Major Carleton's report from the massacre scene broke my shelf.

[@yu12si7]

Thank you for this very informative program....looking foward to parts two and three. Thankful, too, for the live chat that helped us feel connected together in our pain for all of the wagon train victims. The truth hurts but we have to know in order to be better.

[@bugsea54]

Love her story, love this podcast, and I came from a non religious family. Shocking for me to learn about mormonism . But every podcast fascinates me.

[@karengregory46]

That’s how I feel! It is fascinating

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Thanks for the great show on an important and fascinating subject. I noticed one comment from RFM in the live chat that scratched an itch that I was feeling when the topic of Brigham Young's role in encouraging cattle raids came up. RFM said: "Brigham ordered the stealing of cattle. He is criminally liable for any murders committed by the robbers." RFM's comment reminded me that the thing called the "felony murder rule" exists...something that I learned about a long time ago, which applies in many common-law jurisdictions and, IIRC, provides basically that all knowing participants in an inherently dangerous criminal activity (one in which death can be foreseen as a possible consequence one way or another -- something that would be foreseeable as a possibility when stealing cattle from people who may be inclined to not want their cattle stolen) can be charged with murder, even if they were not at the scene (including co-conspirators and accomplices). Cattle raids being encouraged by the top crime boss in Utah (aka, the Prophet Brigham Young) in communications to minions would seem to fall into that category. In such a case, even if Brigham Young expressly wanted them to avoid the spilling of blood when carrying out their cattle raids, he would still be criminally responsible for the deaths (murders) that occurred in the course of carrying out the raids.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@randyjordan5521 "I suggest you read my comment to Ms. Brown above re: Brigham Young's culpability in the crime." Definitely will do so. I always appreciate the historical insights and references that you bring to bear. Admittedly, it's been years since I particularly focused on reading about the MMM issues. In the back of my mind, I remember leaving off with a firm picture in my mind of Brigham Young having used John D. Lee as a scapegoat and having been quite directly implicated in ordering the attack. But I'm overdue for a refresher course on the details, which is one reason why the topic of this podcast caught my attention.

[@dianethulin1700]

I think that people miss that Isaac was close friends with Brigham Young going back to the 1830’s. Absolutely he was part of cattle rustling. As far as statehood goes I find that to be an interesting comment since Isaac’s brother-in-law was John Milton Bernhisel; the senator in congress trying to obtain statehood. I believe that Isaac thought Brigham Young would have sanctioned MMM. Afterwards he and Lee went to SLC where Brigham gave them new wives and they attended a New Years Eve ball and enjoyed themselves. Brigham Young was not upset over Mountain Meadows Massacre no matter any letter he hurriedly sent

[@wbl5649]

My ancestors were part of the wagon train that set out from Arkansas, the Harps and Francis Marion Poteet. Several small trains, including the Harps, decided to split off and continue on their original planned northern route. It is not known why the Harp party decided to break off from the Baker-Francher train, but it was certainly a good decision. Instead of being massacred, they continued on to California and lived a prosperous life....and I was born..

[@Loukirb]

Thank you for presenting your book the way you did. Your statement of read it and draw your own conclusions shows your a true historian that cares about truth and not pushing personal judgements. Such a sad event.

[@nofocus9329]

I'm going to have to come back and finish this episode because got so intrigued that I picked up the audiobook and haven't been able to stop listening!

[@lindastrawberry]

I'm exmo but very into genealogy and church history. This story broke my heart. My ancestors were in the area and one of my direct ancestors was part of the militia. I also found out that they took in one of the children after the massacre. It's horrible. I'm going to read her books.

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Hi Linda. I understand your feelings as I had a similar experience discovering my ancestor was also a perpetrator. I’m curious who your ancestor was, as I am familiar with all those who took in the surviving children and could share with you more info about your ancestor

[@BirdRockin]

Fascinating interview about something I knew nothing about. The book "Vengeance is Mine" sounds like a MUST READ! and I am so glad that it is on audible (just now downloaded it) as I often "read" books while driving or doing chores around the house.

[@hdpf1]

My husband is a descendant of the children who survived the massacre.

[@citizen321654]

That's amazing and such a blessing! I'm interested in hearing the oral and/or written history of the child's experience after adoption and the narrative they were told and passed down through the generations.

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Thanks for sharing this! Which child does your husband descend from?

[@jessedewell]

One of my largest points of contention with the church having been raised in it since birth is that I didn't hear not a murmer about it at any point from the church. I felt like it was something that most of the people i went to church with were completely unaware and I would venture to say that to this day a large number of church members are unaware.. It was clear to me that if the church could get away with never having to talk about it or acknowledge it =if the perpetrators were correct that all of the spared children were to young to have any recollection and the efforts to maintain the mums the word in the valley were successful the church would be OK with it disappearing into history. In other words they only acknowledge it and have gotten involved in preservation under pressure and not because they are interested in full disclosure and acknowledging even the not so rosey aspects of its history because it's the right thing to do. If the church could have gotten away with it the descendants of the victims would not have received any sort of apology or recognition. They never claimed that anyone ever received revelation or inspiration that they needed to shine light on it and own it because it was the right thing to do. Also as mentioned in this episode there has been efforts to downplay or excuse or provide kind of justification or shift blame... Not sure if I am articulating this properly but the churches motivations and efforts to be transparent are not pure at heart and of their own free will

[@jumperguy9867]

Imagine the extent of the deception. The LDS Church lied by omission about this episode in church history. If this doesn't cause you to wonder what lies they have told you concerning other things, like Joseph Smith's true character of criminal behavior, etc. I don't know what does.

[@rileysalt4871]

I love that this women knows that reconciliation begins after the apology and doesn’t end with an apology. it’s just the start.

[@bob50007]

My history teacher in St George was fired because he taught us about the mountain meadows massacre in 1963.

[@wendyromero2463]

How sad! 😢

[@brendaclement6753]

What a fascinating sad story of American history. Excellent interview!

[@cheryltyler9412]

Finding a “replacement” for rituals seems redundant. Im happy to be free of most of them. My life is so much more simple now. Peace in just being “present”.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Same here. As a child, I actually always disliked rituals. They just seemed dead (zombie-like) and fake. I remember at one point, as a youngster, reading The Emperor's New Clothes (by Hans Christian Anderson) and it having a big impact on me...and for some reason after that I associated the (often mindless) performance of rituals with that story. It was like the rituals were a way that people reinforced to each other, through physical motions and speech, belief in a narrative that was obviously not true (obvious to anyone willing to open their eyes and examine the evidence, or lack thereof). It was like, psychologically, participation over and over in certain rituals gave people something tangible that could represent the narrative they wanted to believe in. In the context of The Emperor's New Clothes story, it would be like the crowds ritualistically using hand motions, facial expressions and exclamations of "ooh!" and "aaah!" in order to admire exquisite fabric that was not really there -- the performance of the rituals simply making the unreal seem more real.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

In this context, I use the word ritual to describe something beautiful that brings peace to you. Things that draw you inward and also connect you to a larger context! I’m certainly not talking about any kind of organized ritual. Also people with children really seem to want to find something to Mark events or milestones. It really is a beautiful book if you give it a try!

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@rebeccabibliotheca Certainly. Speaking just for myself, I was thinking about organized, formalized group rituals (like the temple rituals). Things that people freely create of their own volition, for personal reasons or in a specific context without dogma or pressure to conform, can be quite meaningful. I don't know if the quilts would count as a ritual when they were being made, but it was very moving to hear about them and how they came to be.

[@Britbec]

⁠​⁠@@rebeccabibliothecaI downloaded the audiobook and I’m already enjoying it. Exactly as you say, it feels nice to have personal traditions that bring meaning/pleasure to certain seasons. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@tesabecker2309]

My many great grandfather's was John D Lee, I grew up with the tale that he was chosen by God to protect the church and his death would help end the persecutions of the church. I was told to be proud of being related to him, because he sacrificed him self for the whole. And also that because of execution his name would forever be tarnished on earth; but venerated in Heaven as God and the prophets knew the truth. But, my Grandmother (my father's mother, her maiden name was Lee) told me that growing up in Utah, sometimes members of the church would mistreat her for His actions. That did not scream 'he did something to protect the whole' , it also seemed to me to go against the articals of faith. The one about being accountable for our sins, and not Adams transgressions It's part of what cracked the illusion that the church was true. There are a lot of stories that have been warped to fit that church's narrative.

[@rulistening7777]

Spin Doctors Abound.

[@LittleOrla]

Incredible story! Thank you.

[@nomadicam]

I found out a few years ago that my ancestors were among the perpetrators. None of my living (LDS) relatives knew about it until I told them. I wrote a letter of apology and left it at the memorial.

[@skyjust828]

My grandma had her jet black hair till her death at age 86 (she had a few silver strands maybe qr strands throughout no concentration at temples just random)

[@anna-marie-]

Interesting interview as always. I hope the live chat will be preserved for replay as I missed so many thoughtful discussions! Barbra seems to be a very smart person, but the complete confidence in her face & voice when she said she knows the church gave her 100% of the documents was a huge red flag for me. Sad to hear about the drop in funding. The nonprofit I work for (Between the Pages/Camp Half-Blood Austin) is also struggling to meet our fundraising goals to stay afloat. I wonder if there is a public shift against groups antithetical to Christianity! Or maybe everyone is in my current situation, penny pinching just for rent! Either way, love the work you do!

[@stephanieewing2658]

Thank you Barbara! This helped me understand the details of the MMM. I once asked a 7th grade Utah History teacher why this isn’t taught in the curriculum? He said he didn’t know or understand much about it. He was LDS. So important that we know our history both the good and bad.

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Thanks for sharing this, Stephanie! The MMM is now included in 7th grade Utah history curriculum in all Utah schools

[@Kurt843]

Is she going to talk about how many documents and diaries were destroyed? At the express order of Brigham Young.

[@dianawilson13]

I consumed these two books. Wow! Thank you for bringing this topic up!

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

These books were hard reading, there is no excusing what happened. So sad to see that real justice was only experienced by one perpertrator. This is what happens when you live under a theocracy, and it's not that much different today.

[@rickwilson6009]

It’s easier to get through as an audiobook

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

One of my earliest exposures to information on the MMM was reading about it in "Wife No. 19" (by Ann Eliza Webb Young). I recall that she put considerable emphasis on the story of Parley P. Pratt being gunned down in Arkansas as a primary motivator. In light of this discussion with Barbara, I would tend to believe that Ann Eliza was in that part of her book relying heavily on the reporting in California that Barbara mentioned. What Barbara says makes a lot of sense. It would be quite odd to think that a bunch of Mormons (however zealous and religiously deluded) in southern Utah would think that it was okay to massacre over a hundred men, women and children just because they were from Arkansas and there were rumors that they may have had some very loose connection to Pratt's killer. For one thing, TBH, I doubt that Parley P. Pratt was THAT popular and beloved. For another thing, a lot of the perpetrators likely wouldn't have been so dumb that they wouldn't have asked the obvious questions: "How do we know that they really had any connection to Parley's death?" and "Among all these people, how likely is it that all or even most of them would have had any significant responsibility for Parley's death?" Historically, it makes more sense that it was a cattle raid designed to be blamed on the "Indians" that went FUBAR when it became clear to the victims that the Mormons were in charge of it, so the Mormons prioritized damage control and cover-up actions (at least what they thought would be damage control) over basic decency, morality and any hesitation about becoming cold-blooded murderers. Interestingly (at least to me), I also recall that Ann Eliza mentioned how many people in SLC were quite aware of the MMM even to the point of recognizing horses being used in the city that were known to have belonged to the MMM victims.

[@Marenlauder1]

That was a great read. Such an eye opener to hear how some of the men venerated by the church were horrible misogynists and narcissistic.

[@archeoindy1697]

I grew up in the church and never learned about this. This makes my heart ache. Its infuriating that this was and continues to be buried

[@jumperguy9867]

Blame Brigham Young and every Church President after him for the continuing cover-up.

[@Przylepek11]

My LDS Story. I joined the church in 2019 (19yo) and left a few days ago. How can you be persuaded by LDS as a young person in the 21st century? I live in Poland, where there are 2,000 total church members. We have no temple, school or even whole families in the church, there is no mormon culture at all. Even in the largest commune in Poland, there are mainly people from abroad who are temporarily in Poland. There was ONE entire Polish family in our city. Their daughter is the only Polish woman older than me who was born in the church. I also know ONE Polish boy who was on a mission and studied at BYU. In Poland, it's just an ordinary church you go to on Sunday and from time to time there are other activities, e.g. sports on Saturday. The application and library in Polish is very limited. In 2019, there wasn't even the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrines and Covenants. No one told us that these were sacred, important books. We don't read this at all. When you enter the name of the church in Google, only sources about the FLDS will appear in Polish and maybe one article about there being some missionaries in our country. There are no accounts on sm of church members or ex members because they do not exist. Nobody cares about Mormons in Poland. bigger problem is Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. So yeah really peacefully life. I have heard some "scary" stories from ex-members abroad, but such stories can be found about every church. Btw It's funny, because I have never understood how one could become a Jehovah's Witness, it's a strange cult! But when I started watching your podcast or zelph on the shelf, cult to consciousness etc, I was like: are we and Jehovah's witnesses twins??? LDS in Utah and in Poland are two different churches! Poland is Catholic and conservative country. In the Catholic church there is confession, you have to pay for everything, there is a pope, so many things ins lds did not seem strange to me. What's more! In the Catholic Church, you cannot baptize a trans person and the greatest sin is using a condom and the contraceptive pill. Hormonal contraception is a "mini abortion" and it is difficult to obtain forgiveness of sins, so LDS seemed progressive compared to our law and church. That's why it was easy for me to become a member of the church, because it was nice, liberal and there were many things I simply didn't know and we still don't know because they don't exist here.

[@laurasimonson9926]

Thank you for all of your work. I am a descendant of Charles Hopkins, one of the members of the group who attacked and killed these people. I was also taught how great my pioneer ancestors were and did not know about this until I was an adult. I cried when I listened to this interview. I am ashamed to be related to this incident, but we must be honest about what happened and not try to hide it.

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

I understand how you feel Laura, as a descendant of a perpetrator myself. Feel free to reach out to me if you want to talk about it

[@annedodgson8677]

Typically…Mormon shame easy to borrow but YOU do not have responsibility for these murders nor a right to have shame…say prayers and donate to victims funds… keep your boundary real for your own mental health…there are ways to perform healthy support reparations… said in respect to you and others that carry this burden

[@Alnava-ml3wn]

Brigham may not have ordered the massacre but he was without a doubt guilty. It was the culture that he fostered.

[@siren3197]

I may have missed it, however it seems that the Native Americans were also victimized and demonized. The whole thing is sad and disgusting. There was a movie made for TV a few years back and it laid blame on Brigham Young.

[@jumperguy9867]

The Paiutes were not blameless. They initiated the attack at Young's direction. The massacre of the 120+ occurred because the Paiutes were unable to finish the job - so John D. Lee, Higbee, and a couple others convinced the Fancher party to lay down their arms and walk away.

[@mr.hermit2433]

My Great Grandfather came with the Martin Hancart Company as a teen. I was told he was the 1st Telgrapher in the Territory. Brigham Young dispatched him to Witness and Report by Telgraph the Execution of John D. Lee. My Father told me there were 2 pictures hanging in his home in Panguitch as a boy. The President of the United States (I think it was Harding) and the Picture of the Execution of John D. Lee. My Father told me that his Grandfather (the Telegrapher) told him that he "witnessed the Execution of John D. Lee. He was killed for being the Liar and Murder he was."

[@theitineranthistorian2024]

wasn’t avenging joseph smith part of the temple ceremony?

[@hungrywallaby]

It was, but it was removed.

[@pattykake7195]

@@hungrywallaby How convenient…🤐

[@pattykake7195]

@@randyjordan5521 Another creepy and disturbing part of their temple rituals consigned to the dust bin of history..🤐

[@pattykake7195]

@@randyjordan5521 Totally agree …but you are lucky to have gotten out of the Masonic rituals for which you were paying 10% gross of your hard earned money. Freedom from lies and indoctrination is beautiful…all the best to you…🫶.

[@NoToAllOfThat]

I’m not a Mormon but I think it’s so important to face the history of our country. We need to know how we all got here and why.

[@johnthomasmoulton8934]

Simply heartbreaking

[@rileysalt4871]

As an Indigenous person this is my fav mormon stories ever

[@jumperguy9867]

As an indigenous person, you should also realize that the Paiute tribe were pawns of Brigham Young, and did his bidding with respect to them initiating the attack on the Fancher Party.

[@aBrewster29]

I feel like the Church stopped at simply acknowledging the role of church members in this. Of the multiple points of failure that led to MMM, the one that most concerns me is the literal boots on the ground men who knew better, swallowed their consciences, and perpetrated the massacre. Absolute loyalty is still something the Church demands of its members, and it still results in hurting people.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

That reminds me of that famous Steven Weinberg quote: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." I would just add that the quote would equally apply to the fanaticism of adherents of quasi-religious political ideologies. In the case of Mormonism during the reformation period in the Utah territory, the level of cult mind control was dialed all the way up.

[@aBrewster29]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N very applicable quote, and for people want both to be religious and see being a good person as the minimum non-negotiable in religious purpose, societal forces like blind loyalty are extremely problematic.

[@deninejackson2316]

I like the beard John. Looks great. Thank you for always bringing people on to tell the truth of history no matter it is.

[@perlefisker]

1:18:10 Isn't it just sad, how history has to use time and energy on debunking every sort of nonsense the perpetrators come up with.

[@sondralewis1478]

Years ago i read Under the banner of heaven. So meticulously describes this . Insane!!!!! A very amazing author. I dont feel the need to watch the hillywood version but i kept my eye on the movie rights. Ron Howard sat on the movie rights firs many many years. This part of the book blew my mind.

[@fencegecko]

I’m astonished that she didn’t know of the massacre while growing up. A lot of my family from a great uncle are mormon as was many of my classmates. I grew up in western Montana. We weren’t taught the story in school but passed it around.

[@jillsmith8764]

I just learned that one of my ancestors, John Menzies MacFarlane, was a part of the militia. I'm devastated!

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

I understand what that feels like, as I had the same experience. Feel free to reach out to me if you need to talk about it

[@gorditogordito8729]

Question: A similar incident happened to pioneer settlers headed West in the vicinity of American Falls Idaho. The massacre has become known as the City of Rocks massacre and was blamed on the Shoshone Indians. Does Barbara Brown have any information as to the veracity of this massacre? Who was responsible and why?

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

Oh wow, we found that a cattle raid took place at the City of Rocks in September of 1857, and it is mentioned in our book. Would love to hear more about the incident you’re describing!

[@gorditogordito8729]

May I refer you to a book series titled "Massacre Rock and City of Rocks". The author is Donald H Shannon an attorney for the tribe. The Indian side of the story is presented. Very Good.@@BarbaraJonesBrown

[@BarbaraJonesBrown]

@@gorditogordito8729Thank you! I’ll check it out

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@randyjordan5521 When I was a kid, I remember meeting various old men in Utah who would have been grandsons or great-grandsons of the generation that first settled in Utah. Their manner of speech and callousness in talking about things of violence (toward people and animals) gave me a glimpse into what many of those Mormon men may have been like back in the 1850s. (Since those old men I encountered were already a couple or more generations removed from that first generation, I would only assume that they represented a somewhat kinder and gentler version compared to the first generation.) To a typical Utah Mormon of today, growing up attending ward and stake meetings in the suburbs of Salt Lake City, the culture, outlook and attitudes of that type of 1850s Mormon (other than sharing the English language) would seem as foreign and shocking as those of a Taliban member. In a modern suburban Mormon congregation, a person having the views and mindset of a typical 1850s Mormon settler man would be unwelcome and out of place. Of course, in most cases, it seems that modern Mormons simply project their experience of fellow Mormons back in time and imagine people like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, etc. as being like the bishop/insurance salesman or the stake president/orthodontist that they are familiar with in modern times. Interestingly, the way that the Mormons involved in those incidents were referred to as "the Saints" reminds me of the way that some people refer to the Hell's Angels as "the Angels".

[@tawneenielsen4080]

So sad. I'm glad she put in details. Details are the teacher's. Details make us uncomfortable, which hopefully we'll lead us to change.

[@publicanimal]

The letter from Brigham Young that conveniently arrived too late very obviously implicates him. "The Indians will do as they please," he said. "The Indians" were the Mormons, the whole plan was to frame the Indians for what happened. This proves that Young was very much in on the plan.

[@jeffs4483]

Has the LDS formally apologized or provided monetary compensation to the relatives?

[@citizen321654]

Excellent question.

[@jasonroyce295]

Of course not.

[@ja403]

It should never be an expectation that anyone apologize or monetarily atone for things they themselves had nothing to do with. If one chooses to do that, it's their choice. But it's horribly wrong to expect it or judge someone accordingly. Living descendants are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors.

[@jeffs4483]

@@ja403 If B. Young, leader of the LDS had ordered this atrocity, then Yes, this organization is directly at fault and should provide an apology with compensation given to living descendants. Thank you for showing your ignorance.

[@paulv8133]

Tell me, if he ordered the massacre or not, he lied, he orchestrated the cover-up, he protected those involved until someone had to pay, correct? Later, he "married" a 13 year old, had sex with a child. He was a pedophile , right? You're telling me, this is your profit? You Mormons believe this is your Jesus? WTF am I missing!? What's wrong with you people!

[@Kurt843]

Blood atonement wasn't just for murder or adultery. Brigham Young, Jedidiah M. Grant and others listed far less crimes, such as stealing horses, as needing blood atonement for perpetrators.

[@christopherhardy8937]

Brigham young either knew or was complicit. He had the ability to act and punish Lee and the others immediately and he didn't. They blamed local natives, blamed the government, blamed to wagon train. As I said, the leadership knew or was complicit

[@nickyriley-cr1ok]

Thanks

[@Flintlock1776]

If you can be talked into believing absurdities, you can be talked into committing atrocities.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@skyjust828]

I first heard about this in the mid 80's on PBS they never (that i remember) gave any "why" it happened, i just figured it was from the channel 7 PBS (U of U) not the channel 11 PBS (BYU) was the only reason it got out, i was in Austin Texas when I saw it.

[@hillbrettak]

Sitting in the MMM National Historic Landmark parking lot listening to this podcast again. 26 degrees, nobody else here.

[@Moekristie]

Well I'm not a Mormon but some of my best friends are lol... And I wish I could send you money but poverty has struck ... But I love all of you ... Have learned so much about high demand religions... I'm. 2 time cult survivor and you all have bn so helpful in my journey... Also John ...I love your wife so much and can't remember her name ... Deepest RESPECT

[@bendyrland7213]

44:30 Is there any Mormon story that doesn't involve polygamy, young girls or familial relations?

[@josephsullivan5145]

One of the children from the massacre is buried in Oakland Cemetery, Dallas, Texas. There is a plaque next to her headstone telling of the massacre. Georgianna Dunlap McWhirter 2-1-1855 to 9-22-1920.

[@rune_rosen]

I wish I had a copy of that book whilst working on my censorship within mormonism paper. While I had a limited amount of resources, I did find a record from the Library of Congress on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

[@kirklandmeadows]

I'm a standup comedian (never mormon),every time I'm perform at Cafe, library or comedy night in Utah someone ask me if I know about the Mountain Meadow massacre, Interesting, now I do.

[@Chaoslived]

And you still don’t 🤣 This is one version . . .

[@zem43]

@@Chaoslivedwhat’s the other version?

[@Kurt843]

Both of the Turley books are part of the cover-up. It is the church's attempt to fight Bagley's book and they have spent millions of dollars doing it. Also, the church has a special relationship with Oxford books. Oxford basically publishes some of the church's apologetics.

[@Kurt843]

I don't trust Barbara Brown as far as I can throw her.

[@Kurt843]

Oh and Deseret book sells this book. That's probably all you need to know.

[@nicolee1205]

Brigham young is my 3rd great grandpa. I used to think it was really cool and was proud when it came up at church. I grew up on capital hill right by the lion house and had apostles in my ward so it kinda cemented how lucky i was to be descendant. Man there is SOOO much i dont know. i would love to be pointed in the right direction for some books/articles or podcasts that can help me learn more about gramps.. his true history without the puff and bullshit.

[@paulv8133]

Here you go, your grandfather was a pedophile, narcissistic, liar, murderer. Oh, he was also head of the mormon church! You're welcome

[@paulhoughton2273]

I just got it and I'm Excited to listen to it

[@DonnaLena1]

When I hear blood atonement being discussed, the Lafferty Brothers come to mind 😢

[@karenili3196]

Amazing session and so intense! Helped me so much! I’m getting the book!Thank you!🤍

[@anthonydelfino6171]

When I was young, I recall the church denying that it even happened, and that if it did happen, it was just committed by native americans. The fact the church is owning up to it is at least some progress.... though I do expect this is more to do with the fact that with the internet, they're losing control of the narrative, and less because of any real remorse

[@danieljohncarey7917]

When are the missionaries gonna teach this to investigators? I'm not serious. I know the missionaries would only be sent out to teach the polished, fantasized, cartoonishly sweet version of the revised history of the Mormon church the church wants out there. Basically, lies lies lies. That's what I now know the missionaries taught to me, and what I then taught on my mission. I had no idea of any of this Mountain Meadow stuff on my mission, and didn't hear about it until after I had left the church. It is clear that the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, including because the church has bought all that land around where it happened to preserve it. I wonder how many bones are in that burial pit they made surrounded by rocks. There are so many sick and disgusting things in the history of the church. When you think you've heard it all... there is more to learn. Sex trafficking, human trafficking, rapes, pedophelia, ephebophilia, blood oath stuff, protecting child molesters, global grifting, hiding tens of billions from the government, continual and neverending deception, etc. Sorry I joined the church, and went on a mission to bring in more tithe payers living under the deception that any of it is true. Thank you for this episode.

[@tamragoodrich6067]

I know personally the man who made the beautiful wood box especially made for internment of bones for the victims that the Church commissioned in 2007.

[@rickwilson6009]

Thank you Barbara we love you❤

[@derekbeauchamp2409]

Just bought the book !

[@jac9366]

I must admit as you describe this, I wonder whether BY hadn't heard something on the grapevine about what happened and made sure the historian was there to witness it, to force the lie cover up to be done by someone else close to it, so as he could feel he wasn't involved... despite we know from his reaction, BY did feel responsible....

[@iamjustsaying1]

Very informative episode, and clearly, well researched.

[@whitneylee4923]

My 3x great grandpa is John D Lee and there’s still a lot of controversy in the family about what to think about him and the massacre in general. Excited to get some facts straight. Edit: ancestry is through Rachel Andora Lee for my relative homies I’m seeing here in the comments.

[@ginac7235]

On a tangent…There’s a display and historical timeline about Lee’s Ferry in the gift shop/museum at Navajo Bridge along HWY 89A (Northern Arizona). I just happened to be there a few days ago and was surprised that Lee’s Ferry was started by the same John Lee. As a descendant, I thought that may be interesting to you. His wife tried to continue running the ferry but couldn’t, so she sold the rights to the LDS Church.

[@TriciaSlyter]

Tristan, is cauliflower still good for you if you are adding butter and cheese?

[@immortalasirpa6006]

I've watched an *uncomfortable* number of Mormons traffic a deadly virus around the country in the last two years, and I've had a very hard time understanding how people who claim to be followers of Christ could decide that murder by virus doesn't count as murder. *This* particular bit of history puts it all in context. Mormon exceptionalism has resulted all kinds of moral atrocities. It as fully as reprehensible as qualified immunity. In fact, it is a kind of qualified immunity to commit crimes.

[@EvolvePeaceLove]

This.

[@paulcollins3479]

Murder by virus? WTH

[@pateicialane4740]

I want any news on ruby and Jodie glad they still locked up ♥️🇬🇧

[@dianethulin1700]

Sorry but in my case my ancestors were friends with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It’s interesting to me to read their journals from Davis County and Cedar City from this time period. I am part of the Haight family. Those journals give me a broader perspective. A couple of months ago Isaac Haights body was reburied in Cedar City

[@TheUnknownCountry]

Same. I’m up in Canada and I’m not a Mormon but I’m descended from the Leavitt family. My 5th great uncle Dudley Leavitt was at the massacre site at some point. How much he did I’m not sure. I’ve read his mother’s journal which survives. It ends before the massacre but it has provided me with a much broader perspective concerning my Mormon ancestors.

[@Castle1nth3sky]

I am grateful for Forgiveness I am grateful for change Everybody is responsible for their own action, if something happens to someone and they are apart of the church, it doesn't mean the church was at fault the person made that choice. Bad things happen all over the world to not just with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints. Remember there are still a lot of good people in the church, who are truly innocent and there are good innocent people outside of the church. Everyone will be judge accordingly to their thoughts and actions on the last day.

[@michelleadams1078]

If a prophet orders something to happen…this is a church responsibility, not just an individual. The prophet ls the head of the church, not just a man.

[@tomsawyer8446]

My deceased wife was a direct descendant of John Lee. Her branch of the family said that he was the best of men. Her branch of the John D. Lee was totally homeless, living in a cave in the aftermath. My wife read the book that came out 15 years ago. She was significantly disappointed in her ancestor after reading the book. She did not like Lee's poor character that he manifested in years prior to the massacre. She felt that he was a wannabe hero of the LDS movement.

[@Kurt843]

Is Barbara a member of the church? And why wasn't this mentioned?

[@Kurt843]

@@randyjordan5521 The church definitely financed the book. They traveled all over the country. Apparently looking for sources and data. The goal post now is protecting Brigham Young. They've lost all the other battles on this.

[@tamragoodrich6067]

The massacre was horrible, no doubt about it. The massacres in Illinois, and Missouri of "Mormons" by haters of the "Mormons" was also horrible!!

[@TheUnknownCountry]

💯

[@jericf5935]

You are failing in your attempt at justification. Equivalence fallacy. These innocent families had nothing to do with either

[@paulv8133]

Omfg, you Mormons are so incredibly stupid and blind. If your profit Brigham lied, orchestrated a cover-up, attempted to hide some of the guilty, "married" a 13 year old, possibly ordered the massacre, but ill give you that one, tell me, do you really think he was on speed dial with god!? Are you people really this God damn dumb!

[@alcestislessien552]

My question is were the children that were spared all female? To include those under eight years of age, since there were some children under eight that were murdered. Were the murders' of the children at random or specifically motivated? My thoughts go to future plural wives... I could be totally off.

[@satutoivonen9679]

Let's just acknowledge the fact that this live podcast is exactly 2:00:00 in lenght. Who ever produced this I am awestruck and humbled by such dedication to meaningless detail. 😃

[@DeathValleyDazed]

Did you mistake meaningful for meaningless?

[@markrobinson1016]

Always fun to see who is in my family tree. I have the Smith family and the Romney line in mine. Only thing I enjoyed from being a member. Not an active one anymore.

[@RogueMomma25]

Bought the audio book. I had heard about the tradegy but not in depth. All history is imporant.

[@uraqtpie2]

There needs to be a wider scope of what all was going on at that time and that includes the Parley Pratt connection . How would it make any sense that Joseph Smith was killed by that wagon train when he died in 1844 and Mountain Meadow massacre was on 9/11 / 1857 ?

[@878dynamis]

I disagree that the murder of Pratt didn't factor into the massacre. It was a motivation of Brigham Young who ordered the murders, not necessarily the men who did the deed. The smoking gun is George A Smith's trip south on the same day that the Fanchers rolled into Salt Lake. Why was he going south? Officially, the trip to distribute militia orders regarding the US troops Brigham was worried about and to give churchey instructions to local wards. Unofficially, it was to arrange for locals to massacre the Fancher party. How do we know? Because Smith travelled at Ludicrous Speed, covering 50 - 70 miles per day, traveling for 16-18 hours per day. In Southern Utah... in August, when it's very hot. There's no reason to travel this fast. They could have travelled at half the speed and still be travelling quite fast. At the very least you have to contend with this strong coincidence. Any hand-waving in an attempt to exonerate Brigham Young that ignores this fact is inadequate.

[@878dynamis]

​@@randyjordan5521 I think that you and I are 95% in agreement. The real question that needs to be asked is, is Brigham Young's account or John D. Lee's account more credible? Lee said GA Smith gave orders to kill the Fanchers, while Brigham Young and his proxies said that the attack was the result of local unrest (more or less) and that Brigham had nothing to do with the murders. Who's telling the truth? The lengthy quote you cite from Bagley's excellent book could be countered by saying any number of things, amounting to "Well, John Lee was lying". So we need to turn to other evidence to see whose story lines up better with the facts. For me, the one fact that supports John D Lee's account more than anything else is, 1) GA Smith left Salt Lake on the same day the Fanchers arrived 2) GA Smith's ridiculously rapid trip south. 3) GA Smith then spent leisurely days with the to-be murderers and also visiting natives. Combine that with the fact that Brigham Young lied about WHEN George Smith departed by saying George departed a week or more before ("George couldn't have even KNOWN the Fanchers were coming!"). But Church records still show that George left on August 3 - the same day the Fanchers arrived. So Brigham knew that this nexus posed a problem. Of course there's a lot of other lies told by Brigham and his proxies in the aftermath, but none of that proves that Brigham ordered the attack (although it doesn't help things). What DOES prove it is the timing of Smith's trip and the speed of the trip. That all supports Lee's story and discredits Brigham's story. Cheers

[@878dynamis]

@@randyjordan5521 obviously I couldn't agree more

[@overatourhouse4026]

🤔 intersecting thing I've learned studying history is that people can be presented with the same facts and yet their thoughts, biases etc almost can't help being reflected in their final analysis. Although interesting, we have differing conclusions regarding Brigham Young and others involvement. Very sad incident and my heart goes out to all who suffered this tragic event.

[@lennym.s5453]

Many guilty guys in the Bible , for example apóstol Paul , but I don’t care , I love the Bible and love the lds church , is so awesome